April 29, 2025 • 46 mins
Money isn't just math—it's deeply emotional. In this episode of The Midlife Mud, Morgan and Chris open up about their personal money stories, from early family influences to midlife financial pressures like raising kids, saving for retirement, and supporting aging parents. They share how emotions like fear, scarcity, and abundance have shaped their money mindset over time. This is not a financial advice episode—it's a real, relatable conversation about the emotional side of money, financial wellness, and aligning finances with personal values.
Curious to learn more about the connection between money and emotions? Check out Money Is Emotional by Christine Luken.
And if you're ready for more honest conversations about midlife, money, and meaning, join us at themidlifemud.com/join!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Morgan (00:01):
Hey, I'm Morgan. I'm Chris. Welcome to the midlife
mud, where we promise to bringthe real shit, all the grit and
pretty much zero clue about howto deal with this crazy phase of
life. And
Chris (00:12):
by the way, because this is all about feeling less alone,
what we want most is to connectwith you
Morgan (00:18):
absolutely. So take a few seconds and visit the
midlife mud.com and join ourcommunity, and you'll stay up to
date on all the dirt, and, evenbetter, become a part of the
conversation. We can't wait to
Chris (00:29):
see you there. All right, tighten those boots and let's
get muddy. You.
Morgan (00:45):
How are you? I haven't talked to you in five minutes.
The
Chris (00:47):
light is out tonight, like I'm talking about,
literally, the light is out andwe're recording an episode, and
it's in the evening, and I'mloving but it's not dark yet,
not dark. The season is coming.
I love Spring. I do too, but Ialso love winter. Negative.
Ghost Rider, no, technically, Ilove playing in the snow. Also
negative. I just got back fromColorado, as you know, what did
(01:11):
you do in Colorado? Chris, doyou remember that episode we did
about play?
Morgan (01:18):
Nope, totally forgot it.
Chris (01:21):
I spent the entire time doing that. There literally was
no level two fun whatsoever forme. I think there were, there's
possibly moments of that forothers. But what was really cool
is I can remember, like, some ofthe things that I was skiing. I
can remember when they werelevel two fun, but now they've
just kind of morphed into levelone.
Morgan (01:42):
That's exciting. That's something for me to aspire to,
yeah, but that was, like yourfinal closing of the season for
skiing. It was
Chris (01:50):
I did have another profound revelation. I might
possibly be just plain allergicto the west coast because day
three of the trip, I woke up andI felt like somebody was
sandblasting my throat, really.
Morgan (02:04):
And this has happened to you before. Well, New Mexico,
oh, well, yeah, but you weresick before you left. That's
true. That doesn't count. So
Chris (02:12):
the last two days of skiing, I just skied sick. I was
like, fuck it. I'm
Morgan (02:16):
skiing. And it was still level one, fun.
Chris (02:20):
And it was still level one. Yes. Well, good. What's
going on in your world?
Morgan (02:26):
I don't even know. I'm inspired. I do not even know. I
don't know if I'm coming orgoing. We've got a month left of
school, and then, you know,chaos level two begins.
Chris (02:38):
Well, we are in the season of the Blitz. I mean,
everything's like going on atone time, all the spring sports,
which, for some reason, justseemed to be phenomenally more
intense. And then you have allthe other associate events, the
graduations, Easter, you got
Morgan (02:56):
to tie up all the bows, and that's what's happening
right now. So I'm just prayingthat I can keep it together. But
then summer, I'm always like,Oh, I just gotta get through
May. I'm not sure what I'mthinking, because then summer
happens, and summer is thebusiest time at our house,
because everybody's going 12different directions.
Chris (03:16):
Well, the thing that cracks me up about summer, like,
when I think about you insummer, is you have this like
Twisted Sister relationship withsummer. On one hand, like,
everybody's around, but on onehand, everybody's
Morgan (03:28):
around, yeah, you know what it is, though it's guilt,
yeah, I can't. I feel like Ican't do the things that I
really want to do. Like to putmy energy into the things that
are my responsibilities numberone, but also that I that I want
to do, not that I don't want tospend time with my kids, but I
feel like all of my time shouldbe spent catering to my kids.
(03:50):
Yeah, which is not great either.
So when I'm not doing that,which, by the way, I'm never
doing that, not all the time,right, then I feel like guilt.
So I'm just wrestling with guiltthe whole summer.
Chris (04:01):
I think we should do an entire episode about guilt.
We're not doing that today,though, not today. What are we
doing today? Well, I did haveone little last nugget. You know
how sometimes you're not evenreally aware of what impact you
make on other people. You sortof forget, or you just never
even knew in the first place.
Well, I was talking to a friendof mine that I haven't spoken
(04:21):
with in a couple of years. Wejust aren't very geographically
close and whatever. So we endedup catching up, and we had
another mutual friend, and hesaid, oh, so and so says hello,
and by the way, they just stillreally remember how you shared
your juggling with everybody.
(04:42):
I'm like, I don't I didn't evenremember that
Morgan (04:44):
you used to juggle everything, everywhere, all the
time.
Chris (04:49):
Oh, I gave myself black eyes. I know juggle those clubs.
Morgan (04:53):
You would pick up anything, though, that doesn't
surprise me. Someone wouldremember that
Chris (04:57):
if I'm inspired, I still might do that. Yeah. Yeah, I
Morgan (05:00):
can't juggle worth a crap, which is ironic, because I
feel like I'm doing a millionthings. Didn't I try to teach
you that didn't, that didn't gowell,
Chris (05:08):
you can do it, and I still believe let's just,
Morgan (05:11):
let's stick with skiing for now. One thing, one thing
I've done,
Chris (05:15):
but we're juggling.
Morgan (05:19):
Speaking of, what are we doing? Okay,
Chris (05:21):
well, I'm gonna segue with another story. So I
remember I went to thisconference once, and I met who's
now become a really good friendof mine over time. But I think I
was dressed in a black, likelong sleeve shirt. It wasn't
really a turtleneck, but it hada little bit of a high crew neck
and jeans and nice tennis shoes.
And this friend of mine sharedlater this was his first
(05:47):
impression of me, was that I wasa finance guy from New York,
Morgan (05:55):
based on your you were wearing all black,
Chris (05:57):
I don't really know well, it was kind of the Steve Jobs
app, like the well pressed bluejeans with the black top, yeah.
And, you know, I think I can bea little bit reserved when I
first am in new settings. So Idon't know, with all of those
things he came up with. I'm afinance guy from New York, which
Morgan (06:19):
is almost right, not at all.
Chris (06:24):
I am the furthest thing.
I mean, that's an insult tofinance guys. But in fact, we
are going to talk a little bitabout money today. The Quick
disclaimer is, we are notexperts at money, nor do we
profess to be, nor are we givingany advice about money. This is
more about relationships tomoney and the place that money
sits in our lives and the rolesthat it plays. Yeah,
Morgan (06:49):
and I think one of the main reasons we wanted to do
this, first of all, it justfeels like money is one of the
main things that comes up, youknow, to the surface in midlife.
It's one of those things that'sa constant in a marriage that
you're, you know, like, what islike? One of the number one
leading causes of divorce ismoney issues, you know,
disagreements over money and andso money is just something we're
(07:12):
all thinking about, andespecially with today's economy,
it's a little wackadoo. There'ssome crazy stuff happening. And
the reality is that, to yourpoint, we we don't. We're not
going to talk about what to dowith money. If you listen to us,
you would probably, I don'tknow, lose all your money
overnight. Do not trust us withmoney advice. But what we do
(07:33):
find really interesting is thateverybody has a different
relationship with money, andthat relationship seems to
impact your decision making andthe way that you build your
life. So we really want to talkabout that again. No intention
whatsoever of giving moneyadvice or tips. If you have any,
please share. Yes.
Chris (07:53):
So I really, as I was thinking about this episode,
latched on to the emotionalrelationships that we have with
money, and I was looking forthings out there to kind of
reference or read to inspire memore about the show. And I
didn't find a ton. I did findone book called Money is
(08:13):
emotional by Christine Lucan.
And the book really ends upbeing sort of a book about
personal finance and gives a lotof recommendations, but she does
lead with the fact that we allhave emotional relationships
with money. And she uses thisanalogy. And Christine, if
you're listening to this, I'mgoing to totally butcher it, so
I'm sorry, but I'm kind ofparaphrasing. The example in the
(08:35):
book was basically you couldtake $10,000 and you could build
a house or a small shack intoday's economy, or you could
take that same amount of moneyand destroy a house that's
exist, and in either case, the$10,000 is the $10,000 the
$10,000 didn't do either thing.
(08:56):
It was the person behind the$10,000 that made the choice to
do the thing, and that reallystruck me as kind of a good
example of what I'm talkingabout. When I say money can be
emotional. I mean, money initself is just money. What
you're
Morgan (09:12):
saying there, it seems like is money is a tool, and
people are emotional.
Chris (09:16):
Yes, that's what I'm saying. Yes, I'm not emotional,
nor
Morgan (09:20):
am I, but everybody else is, yeah, that's a great point,
right?
Chris (09:25):
And then I started thinking about this interesting
parallel, and you and I weretalking about this the other
day, where I imagine thisspectrum, you know, I mean, I
like these, the spectrums, andat one end is the extreme saver
that the really frugal personwho just watches every penny,
which, by the way, I reallyrespect those people. Yeah, it
(09:46):
takes some discipline. And thenat the other end, you have the
extreme spender, right? And thenin the middle, there's probably
some kind of sweet spot wherethere's a balance. And what
struck me is both the extremespender and the extreme. Dream
saver are probably operatingfrom a fairly high level of
emotion. So there's actually acommonality of those two, even
(10:09):
though Outwardly they lookopposite Exactly,
Morgan (10:12):
yeah. And that emotion could be the same emotion, yeah.
It could be most often is fear,right? Fear, yes, yeah. So
you're right, we build thesestories around money really
early. I think it starts inearly life. We see how our
family manages money. We see howother people do it. We see we're
(10:32):
exposed to culture. You know,our culture growing up. And so
we get all these messages aboutwhat money means and how money
flows into our lives and all ofthat. And so I want to talk a
little bit about our own beliefabout money. And it's
interesting, because obviouslywe come from the same family,
but even with that, I feel likethere are some differences in
the way that we've built ourstory around money. So I
Chris (10:54):
want to ask you a question. Okay, do you remember
emperor of China?
Morgan (10:58):
Yes, for the folks that have that are listening. Emperor
of China was the Chineserestaurant that was like five
minutes from our house, and wewould go there for Friday night
dinners with the family almostweekly. It was either there or
chi Chis, yes.
Chris (11:12):
And there was a guy there that would literally play live
piano, yes. And he usually wore,like a tacky white suit tuxedo
or something, yes, yes. We'vehad a big Mustang. Okay, so
that's setting the scene. That'sthe backdrop. And we, of course,
had our Shirley Temples todrink. Yes? And do you remember
(11:33):
having conversations at some ofthose dinners around we're gonna
have to watch the spending and
Morgan (11:41):
vaguely, yeah, I feel like I remember those later,
like later, when I was more of ateenager, so maybe I was just
completely not paying attentionwhen I was younger.
Chris (11:52):
You might have been, because there's a four year
difference, yeah. And, you know,I feel like there were a few of
those dinners that made a realimpression on me, just in the
fact of I felt emotional aboutit as a kid, but I didn't really
know what that meant. What wasthe emotion? The emotion was
probably some relative of fear,right? But, but sort of this,
(12:13):
well, what does that mean? Like,right? We can't come out. We
can't do this anymore. I justdidn't really understand all of
the underpinnings of that, yeah,you know, but it wasn't a huge
deal. It's just something that Inoted.
Morgan (12:27):
So from that, what would you say your basic concept or
belief around money became,early on, I
Chris (12:33):
was thinking about this some, and one of the things I'm
almost embarrassed to talk aboutit, but I mean, we were pretty
well off as kids, we grew up inin a solid, you know, dual
profession. We never wanted forthings materially, yes, and you
know, I just really didn'trealize that as a kid. And I
(12:53):
remember some of the firstconversations where friends of
mine when I was a kid, pulled measide and said, You're really
well off. Yeah, you guys have alot of money. And I never really
thought of myself like I know,
Morgan (13:07):
I know, which is totally and that is probably going to
come up and show up inthroughout this whole episode,
right? I think you and I areboth very aware now the place of
privilege that we come from,yes, you know, and that
definitely colors the way thatwe interact with money and our
beliefs around money 100%
Chris (13:27):
what's really interesting to me is at least my experience
as an adult has been I've hadfar less money myself than we
had as a family growing up likeI don't live the same lifestyle
that I did growing up, right?
And that's okay, but it hasn'talways been. You know, there was
a time where I felt like reallyfrustrated by that, and felt
(13:49):
that I needed to chase down,getting that back, having that
stuff, having that which sort ofrelates to another point I was
going to make around materialthings and image related to
money, having material things asa status, yeah, and really
trying to kind of make up thatgap and land at least where you
(14:09):
grew up in, if not better.
Morgan (14:13):
Yes, man, there's loads to say about that, and I think
we'll touch on that more justwhen we start talking more about
like identity and money andmidlife can become very much
about identity, right? But Iwant to go back to, like, what
you were saying about the earlythe early belief around money
and that sort of fear that wassurrounding it, I think
interestingly for me, like,Okay, do you read my metaphor
(14:37):
for this very rudimentary beliefthat I had? Do you remember
dad's bills, basketball.
Chris (14:44):
Oh, my God. I remember the sound that the wicker made
when he picked that fucker up.
Morgan (14:51):
He literally had, it was like a two foot by one foot,
three inch deep wicker basketthat had, oh. The bills and the
papers and the receipts and allthis stuff, and he would tuck it
away in this really ugly browncabinetry that we had in the
living room. Okay? So once everyso often, I don't know how
(15:14):
often, but he would be out withthe bills basket, right? And it
was a cluster fuck.
Chris (15:19):
I mean, that fucking Bill basket was like a mythical
creature. I just didn'tunderstand it.
Morgan (15:27):
And so that that's sort of my metaphor for my
relationship with money earlyon, was that okay? When you tuck
away the bills basket, we're notthinking about it. It's not it's
not there, no big deal. And whenit was out, it was like in your
face, right? So what that boilsdown to is, for me, it was very
(15:49):
much like, buy what you wantwhenever you want it, figure it
out later, right? The good thingabout that, I always have
believed that money will bethere when I need it. Yes, it's
going to come somehow, some way,when I need it. The problem with
this very rudimentary version ofmy relationship with money is
(16:10):
that it definitely led tooverspending. Right? It leads to
this impulsive buying. Do youmean, instead of sort of a
vision, led purposeful planningto
Chris (16:19):
buy? Do you have any examples? So I
Morgan (16:22):
actually have a really good example when, when Matt and
I first got married, which wasearly on in my dental school
career. And when you're indental school, at least for us,
most students are completelyliving off of student loans,
right? So you're giving them,like every semester, I think you
get like a lump sum, and thenthat's it for the semester. And
then you got to make that work.
So with all my crazy budgetingskills, I did not budget a
(16:44):
thing. Now that is not to saythat I didn't keep track of what
we were spending, you know, II'm still very on top of it that
way, but I either miscalculatedor didn't, just didn't account
for certain things. Because wegot to spring break, my freshman
year of dental school, and wewere going to go, we were just
(17:05):
going to drive to Charleston,South Carolina, stay in a condo
that my friend, who was anotherdental student, her aunt, or
somebody owned it, she was goingto let us stay there for free.
So it was like this inexpensiveway, because we were going to
drive and just stay for free andjust hang out for the week,
right? The day before we'regoing to leave, I somehow look
at our balance and it's like $5I mean, it was low, and I was
(17:29):
the one managing the money, sothis was all on me. Like I felt
so ridiculous, ashamed, becausenot only am I going to have to
crawl to Matt and be like, um,something's wrong here. I did
something wrong. But also ourfriends were expecting us to
show up, so I was going to haveto like, be like, well, we can't
(17:51):
afford it. We can't afford this.
You know, no cost trip. Itwouldn't have made any sense. So
I can't even remember what weended up doing? Quite honestly,
I'd have to ask Matt, but I doremember that feeling of like,
Shit, this isn't gonna work.
Chris (18:10):
That is a really bad feeling,
Morgan (18:13):
yes, and I think from that moment on, Matt took it,
you know, happily, I was like,You got to do this. So Matt took
over overseeing our expenses andall of that stuff. Yeah, that's
my example of how that line ofthinking was, where that was
pointing me. I was
Chris (18:29):
gonna go into something smaller, like trail mix, but I
like yours
Morgan (18:37):
Well, and what you're referring to is an ongoing
argument that we have in myhousehold about the money that I
spend on the food that we eat,slash, don't eat in this house.
Now,
Chris (18:47):
while you and I are different with, like, our
emotional relationship to money,right, we both do spend a lot on
food. I
Morgan (18:54):
love food, food. And you know what I'm gonna for all you
moms out there who have kidsthat one week like one thing and
then the next week they hate,hate it with a passion. How in
the hell are you supposed togage exactly how much everyone's
gonna eat, whether they're gonnalike what you make? I'm sorry,
but it's too much. It's just toomuch. So I take a gamble every
(19:16):
week, and sometimes, probablymore often than not, it doesn't
work out, but whatever. So
Chris (19:21):
the little food anecdote in our house is, I like to cook,
and, you know, I'm pretty much,am the primary Cook, and we go
to the grocery store, and if Ibuy any sort of new spice, what
do you need? That spice forspices can be expensive. Oh,
they are expensive. They aredefinitely expensive. But you
Morgan (19:41):
use the spice, and spices don't go bad. That's my
other favorite line. They're notgonna go bad. I'll use it
eventually.
Chris (19:47):
And I do use, I do use the spices to that point. I do
Morgan (19:50):
want to bring up something that I heard I was, I
was doing my workout video as Ido, and the leader of the
workout, she always has. Like,motivational speech or something
in there, and she said somethingthat really struck me. I was
like, Man, that's so relevantand so true. She said something
can be highly valuable or it canbe really expensive, but it
(20:13):
cannot be both. And I lovedthat. I loved that, yeah,
because it's like, you put yourmoney into what is valuable to
you, and why is that valuable,and we can explore that more,
but I just want to for anybodythat has not heard that I loved
that it could be something tokind of think about.
Chris (20:31):
It does kind of tie back into that house story. The money
is a tool, like the $10,000 canbe used to do this, or it could
be used to do that or buy trailmix, but it's really the person
that drives that
Morgan (20:45):
some spicy trail mix.
Yeah? So you know what nexttime, if you're if your spouse
is like, why are you somethingcan either be highly valuable or
really expensive. You'rewelcome,
Chris (20:59):
but not both. Yeah? So unpacking money a little bit
more on the emotional side ofthings, and there's all of this
stuff around what having a lotof money means, yeah, or what
not having it means. And forsome people, I really believe
money's just not really that bigof an issue. And I've always
(21:20):
admired those people, like theyjust kind of live their life,
and they don't seem all thatinfluenced or motivated, like
they understand money isimportant at some level, but,
Morgan (21:30):
but it's like there's not a concern one way or the
other. Oh, yeah. It's like theyrespect that they need it, but
they're like, not worried aboutit, right?
Chris (21:40):
And they sort of have faith that it will come, but
they're not irresponsible withmoney, but also not hyper
vigilant about it. That might bewhat that sweet spot in the
middle is,
Morgan (21:50):
yeah, so now that we're in midlife, yep, paint the
picture of midlife. What are wedealing with, financially?
That's a little bit of achallenge.
Chris (21:58):
Well, I'm gonna come at this in a little bit different
direction. You know, the firstthing that I want to say, and I
think this, is really, I don'tknow, this really struck me.
This was in Christine Luke'sbook too. She talks about
treating money with respect,even to the point like, if you
have dollar bills, don't wrinklethem up, organize them and put
(22:18):
them away neatly, put your coinsin a jar like this is
interesting. Have respect foryour money. And you know, one of
the things that is coming to meright now is just in midlife,
one thing that's related tomoney that I'm really grateful
for is, if I compare now to whenI was a kid, I do have a lot
(22:40):
more experience with makingmoney, knowledge about how to
bring money into my life, andjust as an older professional,
it can come a little bit easierif I'm thoughtful about it. So
I'm grateful about that. On theother side, I got a lot more
outgoing. Yeah,
Morgan (22:59):
I think we all do kids
Chris (23:01):
headed to college. The you know, the retirement thing
is getting closer, and all ofthose kinds of expenses and
everything just gets moreexpensive. You want to take the
vacation because the kids aregetting older, and, yeah, that's
at the same time that you'rehaving to save for college. It's
a balancing act.
Morgan (23:21):
I think you hit the nail on the head when Matt and I sit
and talk about this, and he isdefinitely, I don't think he'll
mind me saying this, but he isdefinitely more his relationship
with money is very differentthan mine, and he is, again, he
is the one managing ourfinances, and so he's in his
face more. And yeah, this is atime when we're pouring, like,
(23:42):
literally bleeding money intoour kids and all of their
activities while we're stilltrying to be like, Okay, let's
create our little nest egg forwhen we're not working anymore.
Oh, well, it's a tight line towalk. I know
Chris (23:56):
there's also that concept of life is short, right? Yes, at
this phase, I realized that thekids are just growing up so
fast, and memories are soimportant. And I think about a
conversation we're having justyesterday about how are we going
to make this ski trip next yearhappen in the way that we want
it to? And really so money'sinvolved in that conversation,
(24:19):
but the motivation behind it iscreating an experience now which
we're recognizing is a specialmoment that's not going to be
with us forever.
Morgan (24:29):
Again, highly valuable.
Yes, highly valuable. And sothat's something I'm willing to
fork over money for,
Chris (24:37):
but it's in the backdrop of making sure all those other
responsibilities get filled.
Yeah, the other balancing
Morgan (24:43):
act, and you mentioned this yesterday, is we also in
this phase, often have agingparents, you know, and that
doesn't mean like we're not weare not quite there yet. We're
not taking care of our parents,but, you know, we're knocking on
the door of being in a placewhere, okay. What does that
aging process look like forthem? What kind of care might
(25:04):
they need? Are they financiallyset up to do that? Are we gonna
have to help with that? It feelslike all this weight falls on
us. We gotta take care of theyounger generation and ourselves
and the older generation. That'skind of the pressure that it
feels like we're under. Yeah,
Chris (25:20):
you know, I was thinking about the evolution of my own
relationship with money, and Iwould say, what's happening, I
think, over time, is that it'sless about status, or like
having to go back to the analogyof the workout woman, the
expensive things, and it's moreabout the higher value things.
And the way that I put it was,it's less about status and more
(25:44):
about experience. And there'sthis other little seedling
that's really starting to takehold, and that is the ability to
give back, yeah, and useresources and money in that way.
I'm
Morgan (25:57):
curious, like when you go back to your initial
relationship with money, yeah?
And you talked about, like, whatwould you say it actually is
you, I know you said it was sortof rooted in in fear. What would
you say your relationship withmoney was like, when I
Chris (26:11):
was a kid? Or, what do you mean? Yeah, like, early
days, oh,
Morgan (26:15):
before you really had responsibility. Like, what was
the messaging you took in? Andyou're like, that's how I'm
supposed to relate to money,yeah?
Chris (26:22):
Well, it was all about spending and having things when
I was younger, for
Morgan (26:28):
status reasons. Did you feel or, yeah? I
Chris (26:31):
think so. Like, yeah, there was something around
having the latest thing thatmade me feel good. Now, the
thing is that was only atemporary feeling, right? Have
to do it again, right? Like, thenext day, yeah, right. It's
like, this dopamine thing that'shappening. And I can remember,
(26:51):
like, back in fifth grade, doyou remember the Sharper Image
magazine?
Morgan (26:54):
Oh, yeah, I remember the one in the mall. You could go
there. They had this leather
Chris (26:59):
jacket in there that had, like, different flags now today
that I can't even believe I likethat jacket, but that was back
when Top Gun was fresh, yeah,and I wanted that fucking
jacket, and I couldn't have it,and I couldn't figure out how to
get it. And I can just rememberthat, and then I can sort of
track that like the first iPadwas 2010 and I remember going
(27:24):
and getting that thing andhaving people go, Oh, you've got
the new iPad. Yeah, feelingguilty inside because I
shouldn't have spent that money.
Yeah,
Morgan (27:33):
we grew up privileged, and we didn't really know it. So
when your friends pulled youaside to say, Hey, you're well
off. Do you think thatinfluenced the way you looked at
that like, oh, that meanssomething or that gives me a
status. I'm just curious. Well,I
Chris (27:50):
was a little bit embarrassed by it, because I
never really considered thatpeople's experience were
different, different than mine.
And remember, we're talkingabout me as a little kid? Yeah,
6789, years old. And so I guesswhat that did is it did plant a
seedling of be aware of otherpeople's situations and the fact
(28:11):
that they're not always likemine.
Morgan (28:16):
Does that color the way you look at people who have
money, like a lot of money now.
Chris (28:21):
Well, you know, we're kind of skipping around a little
bit because I, I really believe,until about five or six years
ago, I I kind of put having alot of money on this high
pedestal, and it was somethingthat I really wanted to have.
And I think some of that may bejust a fact that we came a
(28:42):
little bit from that. But, youknow, it's interesting, because
there goes the gratitude thingagain. You know, I think it's so
important to be grateful forwhat we have versus desire what
we don't have. And I've spent somuch of my life desiring what I
don't have, yeah, thinking thatwhen I could have whatever it
is, the bigger house, the bettercar, the money in the bank,
(29:06):
whatever it is, that I wouldautomatically become happy,
yeah, and at peace. And theshift has been, I've recognized
that a lot of those folks, theyaren't happy, because I've known
a bunch of people that have alot of things and a lot of
money, and I've been paying moreattention, and what I see is
(29:26):
that's not Nirvana, nope. Youknow, it can be or it can't be.
I think a lot of times moneyjust makes things more
complicated, especially ifyou're not really secure about
your own values and who you areand what your intentions are,
and all of
Morgan (29:44):
that stuff. Yeah, and I think this speaks to that what
we touched on earlier, which isabout identity. And if your
identity boils down to thethings that you have, which is a
reflection of your financialsituation, then you. That's
rocky ground. Yeah, you know, Ithink it works the other way
too, though. Like, if the reasonI asked you that question is,
(30:05):
like, if you are someone whosort of is ashamed, or looks at
people with a lot of money andsays, ooh, their priorities are
out of whack, right? That's notwhat I'm saying. You thought,
but I was curious. There arepeople that believe that, and I
wonder if that impacts the waythat they interact with money,
right? It's like, I will notallow myself to have that much
(30:27):
money, because if I have thatmuch money, that would mean XYZ,
you know, yeah, my prioritiesare out of whack. Or insert
whatever. So it can go. It cango both ways, however you view
it. I think the primary thingis, is really taking a look at
what is it about having thismoney that's important for me?
(30:48):
What's it going to do for me?
You know, what do you believeit's going to do? And if you
believe it's going to makepeople like you or make you seem
more important, you know, again,say all of these things about
your identity, then that's notreally talking about your values
as a person. You know. That'snot in support of who you really
are. That's you looking to moneyto make you somebody, which is a
(31:10):
very different thing, and you'regonna be chasing your tail
Chris (31:15):
well. And I think that as I have unpacked my own
relationship with money and howit's been changing. One of the
things that I've noticed is I amtending to to kind of shift to
more of experience basedspending, and like, my
priorities around how I spendmoney are changing. And what's
interesting is I'm not really asfocused on the money, like the
(31:38):
money is something that I haveto plan for, and I've got to be
organized and intentional aboutthat, but my focus is more
around what do I want to do?
Life is short, so what do I wantto do? What's my intention?
What's my goal? What are myvalues around the experiences I
want to have and the impact thatI want to make on the world
while I'm here, and then themoney is sort of like follows
(32:01):
behind that. Instead of saying,I want to have this house and I
want to have this car, and whenI get those things, you know,
Morgan (32:10):
yeah, it's like you have the vision. Then you ask, How
can money support this vision?
Chris (32:16):
Yes, and what do I need to do in order to support this
vision?
Morgan (32:21):
Yeah, which I think means that you have to be deeply
rooted in understanding who youare and what's actually
important to you, like whatactually matters. And that's
where things can be highlyvaluable, or they can be really
expensive, but not both. And
Chris (32:33):
there's also this degree of faith, and it's back to that
whole thing about control. All Ican do is understand myself, my
values, and make a plan based onthat. I cannot predict the
future. I cannot control whathappens or doesn't happen. So
there's a degree of faith that Ihave to have that if my plan
(32:55):
goes sideways, it's okay, a newplan will come. Yes,
Morgan (33:00):
that's what I was going to say, that my my more refined
belief about money today, andhonestly, I think I have a
fairly healthy relationship withmoney. If Matt were here, he
would smack me in the face rightnow. He would not, he would
never lay a finger on me, but,you know, he he would definitely
give me a look.
Chris (33:19):
He would go deal with trail,
Morgan (33:24):
because I will say, yeah, so. But what I believe
about money today is that stillmoney will always be there when
I need it, like the money that Ineed will always be there as
long as I show up and I workhard, I keep my eyes open to
opportunities that will arise.
And what you just said, Trust, Itrust. And so sometimes what
(33:44):
that means is that I have towait on certain things, like I
have a serious vision for ourhouse. I would love to renovate
it, like I've got pictures in myhead and I want to update
everything, and I can't do thatright now. We, you know, we just
can't feasibly do that. Thatdoesn't mean I'm never going to
do it. We will make it happensometime. It also means
(34:05):
sometimes I have to take a leapof faith financially, without
having any idea how it's goingto work, which sounds risky, but
trusting that it's going towork. Somehow. An example of
that is, you know, when wedecided to send the boys to
private school with like, sixmonths notice. We were not
financially in a situation wherethat was planned, right, and we
also knew this is the rightdecision. We will make it work.
(34:29):
Pros and cons of this. One, thepros are, I'm a lot more
accountable. I'm moreresponsible. I don't impulsively
spend as much as as much. I'mbetter. The tricky thing, you
know, the con about it is thatthe person that I'm married to,
and this is very common, doesnot see money the same way that
I do, and so we are constantlycircling this topic in different
(34:51):
ways, because we just have adifferent relationship with it.
He is a lot more likerestrictive and fearful and.
Practical. So we also balanceeach other really well. I can be
a little bit Woo, woo, like theuniverse will provide. And he's
like, No, that's me workingevery day, so I get it.
Chris (35:13):
So what do you think is enough money? I think
Morgan (35:16):
enough money is whatever money you need right now to
support your vision, yes, and Isay right now, because right now
is all we have. That's right,that's not to say that
retirement is not important.
When you're really visioning,you can have a vision for what
your retirement is going to be.
And so enough is in support ofthat vision as well,
Chris (35:38):
right? But I think there's also this concept of,
you know, within that definitionof enough, which is a very
individualized your enough isdifferent than my enough because
it's related to who we are aspeople and what our individual
visions are. One concept that Ithink is so important is to
honor the person of today aswell as the person of tomorrow.
(36:02):
Yes. And one huge trap that Isee is you're doing one or the
other back to that wholespectrum thing. Yeah, you're
spending it all today or you'resaving it all for tomorrow.
Yeah, it's like finding thatplace in the middle where you're
living your vision today, butyou're also building for your
vision tomorrow? Yeah,
Morgan (36:22):
Matt and I were having a talk about this not too long
ago. Because, of course, he'salways thinking about, Okay, we
got to put this away forretirement and but he's also,
you can see he's sort ofcalculating like, okay, but then
that means I have to have zerolife right now, and by the time
I retire, what the hell am Igoing to even be able to do
first of all, you know, like, amI gonna physically be able to go
(36:45):
travel and do the things that Ithink that I'm gonna be able to
do? And so you're right. Youhave to honor both. You have to
be accountable to both. It'sreally hard. It is really hard.
And it goes back to that emotionthing, you know, people are just
very emotional creatures, right?
And so this is just a sweepinggeneralization, but honestly, if
(37:06):
you think, if you go under allof the layers, I feel like the
primary emotion is fear in termsof spending, because if you're
over spending, maybe you'reoverspending because you want to
look a certain way, you want tocome off a certain way, you want
to project a certain status.
(37:27):
Because if you don't what youknow, you're afraid of whatever
happens, right? Maybe it makesyou like you said, you're
chasing that, that dopamine, itmakes you feel good in the
moment to buy the thing. Butthen you don't, it doesn't last.
So then you got to go do itagain. You're afraid to feel
what's underneath. Without thedopamine, we don't give credence
(37:47):
to our emotions enough. I don'tthink they are hugely powerful.
Chris (37:52):
Well, yeah, and anybody who's in a sales position, oh,
understand, just
Morgan (37:59):
right, they just, they exploit it. And I think that's
what consumerism is all about,
Chris (38:05):
right? Which the only real antidote to that is having
clarity on what it is thatyou're trying to do. Are you
seeking expensive things? Areyou seeking high value things?
You know, and what's underneaththat, emotionally? It's
Morgan (38:20):
another awareness thing.
I know we almost every time webring up self awareness, but
it's true how we are. We're allso busy going through life that
sometimes we're not steppingback and paying attention to,
oh, what is what's underneathit? Why am I doing this? Why do
I need this thing? Well,
Chris (38:37):
and we live in this time of kind of financial chaos. I
like the way you said that. No,it's like financial death by
paper cuts. Yes, you have 1595for Netflix, and then, oh, my
god, your Starbucks five days aweek. And that's like six to $25
depending on
Morgan (38:57):
how many. Oh, it's way too easy to convince yourself
that you're not spending thatmuch on these extra little
things. And by the way, I'm notsaying there's anything at all
wrong with those things. No, Ilove a lot of those things. But
it
Chris (39:09):
just goes back to that the awareness, that's why I
brought it. Yes, likeunderstanding the impact of that
and what it means to yourspecific situation, or what it
means to my specific situationis so important. Yeah, and there
was this other little conceptthat came up that I really
liked. I'm again, paraphrasing,but it came from that book, and
(39:30):
it was around awareness andtaking stock of what you spend
on all those little things, andthen realizing that a lot of
times what happens is, what wasonce a treat, like Starbucks
once a week becomes every day,and then, by the way, it's more
expensive, and it doesn't evenfeel like a treat anymore, yeah,
because you're doing it all thetime. So the question was, what
(39:53):
can you take in your life and,like, return it to the status of
a treat? I like that,
Morgan (39:58):
because you're not saying take it away. That.
That's right. You're like, howdo you make it special? Again, I
loved it. I was like, Oh, that'sa good idea. And you know what
there are? I'm sure you knowthere are apps now that you can
use to kind of track all of yourRando subscriptions that you
have for everything. Yes, I havenever checked them out, but I
can understand why they exist.
It would be nice to have a veryitemized list right in front of
(40:22):
your face, just something,something more in your face, so
that you can't convinceyourself, oh, it's not that big
of a doesn't have that much ofan impact, right? And I think
also back to being kind of woo,woo. Bottom line is, do you want
to have an abundance mindset ora scarcity mindset. Like, which
do you feel like is going toserve you the most, and how does
(40:45):
that really influence the waythat you make decisions about
things? Right? I feel like ifyou're coming from a place of
scarcity, you live in a place offear, right, right? And, and in
today's economy, that's not toofar off the mark. Like, I don't
freaking blame you, you know,right at the same time, how does
that influence the way that youI feel like it stifles your
(41:09):
ability to vision what youactually want. Like, Nope, it's
off limits. Can't have it.
Chris (41:15):
Yeah, if you're in a fear mentality, it's very hard to be
creative. I mean, those, thosetwo conflict each other.
Morgan (41:22):
Damn it. We're doing a practical dreaming thing again,
like it's how do all of ourtopics sort of weave back
together to well, we could justdo one podcast episode and be
done. That
Chris (41:32):
makes us sound far too simple. We are simple.
Morgan (41:40):
They know already by now,
Chris (41:44):
but I was gonna say, like, with the abundance
mindset, yeah, is I'm getting toa place in life where I'm just,
I'm thinking about that muchmore expansively than just
money.
Morgan (41:57):
Well, yeah, that's what I mean. It applies to the
everything in life. It's theidea that there is enough of all
of it, of love, of resources,yeah, yeah, all of it. It
changes the way you see stuff.
Chris (42:11):
It does and it for me, it helps take me out of that fear
of loss, that scarcity mindset,that mindset that says, if you
get to have this, then I don'tYes. The other way to think
about this is, if you get tohave it, then I can have it too.
There's enough for everybody to
Morgan (42:30):
have, right? If it's possible for you, it's possible
for me, let's celebrate all ofthat. Yes, that's a great way to
put it. So the next time you goto buy eggs, you see that
they're $100 for a dozen. Youknow, dream big abundance. Go
buy a chicken instead that thereis my one money tip. No,
Chris (42:50):
no. We said we're not giving any financial advice.
Morgan (42:55):
So what are your micronutrients from today?
Finance guy
Chris (43:03):
that you know money is not inherently emotional. Money
just is, but what is emotionalis us. You know, I'm an
emotional being, and I canexpress that emotion and the
intention that's wrapped up inmy own emotions through money,
and it's
Morgan (43:21):
a tool that you can make work for you, or you can make it
work you. That's
Chris (43:25):
right. So that ties into my second one, which is money
works best for me when I don'tmake it the sole focus, but
rather, I organize myintentions, desires and goals in
a way that's prioritized andaligned with my own values, and
then let the money follow that.
Morgan (43:45):
Yeah, I'm very, very much on the same page as far as
viewing money as a supportivetool in my life. And I feel like
I've always kind of seen it thatway. I don't feel like I need it
in order to be someone I don't Idon't ever want it to be
something that defines me,right? I'm also totally and
completely fine with wantingmoney and accepting money and
(44:08):
dreaming big with money, as longas it is, it's there to support
my values, my highest alignmentwith my values, and that also
includes ways that I give back.
You know, if you can see moneyas something that flows in and
out. It is a very fluidsituation. You're not holding on
to it, and you're also nothaving to reach to get it. So
(44:29):
it's, it's almost like I'm in amoney River. That's the imagery
that I want to hold on to, tokeep out of that fear place,
which, again, I know it's veryWoo, woo, and all the finance
people are like, shaking theirheads, and actually, they
stopped listening a long timeago. I believe that if I let go
of it, it's going to come backto me when I need it, like it's
(44:51):
just it's just there.
Chris (44:54):
I think my financial advisor is one of our listeners,
so I'll have to ask him,
Morgan (44:59):
Oh, he just stopped. He just totally unfriended me on
Facebook. I'm sure. Delete,delete. Okay. Well, do we have
any requests or mentions or
Chris (45:11):
Well, we are carrying on this new tradition of writing a
little recap and rekindlingconversation with our subscribed
listeners on the midlife mud.comif you go to that website and
sign up the
Morgan (45:27):
midlife mud.com you have to put the V in front of it, got
it, otherwise it's going to belike, What does not exist, yeah?
Chris (45:34):
So if you want to join that conversation, go to our
website and sign up for it.
Yeah.
Morgan (45:40):
We would love to have you as a part of the community,
because that's what it's allabout, is being a part of the
conversation and giving us moneyadvice.
Chris (45:49):
Other than that, we'll see you next time,
Morgan (45:51):
next time in the mud.
Chris (45:59):
Thanks for being with us in the mud today.
Morgan (46:02):
If you liked this episode, do us a HUGE favor and
subscribe to the show. This isgonna make sure you never miss
an episode, and it's gonna helpus grow our muddy community,
which would mean the world tous.
Chris (46:12):
See you next time in the mud you
Hey, I'm Morgan. I'm Chris. Welcome to the midlife
mud, where we promise to bringthe real shit, all the grit and
pretty much zero clue about howto deal with this crazy phase of
life. And
Chris (00:12):
by the way, because this is all about feeling less alone,
what we want most is to connectwith you
Morgan (00:18):
absolutely. So take a few seconds and visit the
midlife mud.com and join ourcommunity, and you'll stay up to
date on all the dirt, and, evenbetter, become a part of the
conversation. We can't wait to
Chris (00:29):
see you there. All right, tighten those boots and let's
get muddy. You.
Morgan (00:45):
How are you? I haven't talked to you in five minutes.
The
Chris (00:47):
light is out tonight, like I'm talking about,
literally, the light is out andwe're recording an episode, and
it's in the evening, and I'mloving but it's not dark yet,
not dark. The season is coming.
I love Spring. I do too, but Ialso love winter. Negative.
Ghost Rider, no, technically, Ilove playing in the snow. Also
negative. I just got back fromColorado, as you know, what did
(01:11):
you do in Colorado? Chris, doyou remember that episode we did
about play?
Morgan (01:18):
Nope, totally forgot it.
Chris (01:21):
I spent the entire time doing that. There literally was
no level two fun whatsoever forme. I think there were, there's
possibly moments of that forothers. But what was really cool
is I can remember, like, some ofthe things that I was skiing. I
can remember when they werelevel two fun, but now they've
just kind of morphed into levelone.
Morgan (01:42):
That's exciting. That's something for me to aspire to,
yeah, but that was, like yourfinal closing of the season for
skiing. It was
Chris (01:50):
I did have another profound revelation. I might
possibly be just plain allergicto the west coast because day
three of the trip, I woke up andI felt like somebody was
sandblasting my throat, really.
Morgan (02:04):
And this has happened to you before. Well, New Mexico,
oh, well, yeah, but you weresick before you left. That's
true. That doesn't count. So
Chris (02:12):
the last two days of skiing, I just skied sick. I was
like, fuck it. I'm
Morgan (02:16):
skiing. And it was still level one, fun.
Chris (02:20):
And it was still level one. Yes. Well, good. What's
going on in your world?
Morgan (02:26):
I don't even know. I'm inspired. I do not even know. I
don't know if I'm coming orgoing. We've got a month left of
school, and then, you know,chaos level two begins.
Chris (02:38):
Well, we are in the season of the Blitz. I mean,
everything's like going on atone time, all the spring sports,
which, for some reason, justseemed to be phenomenally more
intense. And then you have allthe other associate events, the
graduations, Easter, you got
Morgan (02:56):
to tie up all the bows, and that's what's happening
right now. So I'm just prayingthat I can keep it together. But
then summer, I'm always like,Oh, I just gotta get through
May. I'm not sure what I'mthinking, because then summer
happens, and summer is thebusiest time at our house,
because everybody's going 12different directions.
Chris (03:16):
Well, the thing that cracks me up about summer, like,
when I think about you insummer, is you have this like
Twisted Sister relationship withsummer. On one hand, like,
everybody's around, but on onehand, everybody's
Morgan (03:28):
around, yeah, you know what it is, though it's guilt,
yeah, I can't. I feel like Ican't do the things that I
really want to do. Like to putmy energy into the things that
are my responsibilities numberone, but also that I that I want
to do, not that I don't want tospend time with my kids, but I
feel like all of my time shouldbe spent catering to my kids.
(03:50):
Yeah, which is not great either.
So when I'm not doing that,which, by the way, I'm never
doing that, not all the time,right, then I feel like guilt.
So I'm just wrestling with guiltthe whole summer.
Chris (04:01):
I think we should do an entire episode about guilt.
We're not doing that today,though, not today. What are we
doing today? Well, I did haveone little last nugget. You know
how sometimes you're not evenreally aware of what impact you
make on other people. You sortof forget, or you just never
even knew in the first place.
Well, I was talking to a friendof mine that I haven't spoken
(04:21):
with in a couple of years. Wejust aren't very geographically
close and whatever. So we endedup catching up, and we had
another mutual friend, and hesaid, oh, so and so says hello,
and by the way, they just stillreally remember how you shared
your juggling with everybody.
(04:42):
I'm like, I don't I didn't evenremember that
Morgan (04:44):
you used to juggle everything, everywhere, all the
time.
Chris (04:49):
Oh, I gave myself black eyes. I know juggle those clubs.
Morgan (04:53):
You would pick up anything, though, that doesn't
surprise me. Someone wouldremember that
Chris (04:57):
if I'm inspired, I still might do that. Yeah. Yeah, I
Morgan (05:00):
can't juggle worth a crap, which is ironic, because I
feel like I'm doing a millionthings. Didn't I try to teach
you that didn't, that didn't gowell,
Chris (05:08):
you can do it, and I still believe let's just,
Morgan (05:11):
let's stick with skiing for now. One thing, one thing
I've done,
Chris (05:15):
but we're juggling.
Morgan (05:19):
Speaking of, what are we doing? Okay,
Chris (05:21):
well, I'm gonna segue with another story. So I
remember I went to thisconference once, and I met who's
now become a really good friendof mine over time. But I think I
was dressed in a black, likelong sleeve shirt. It wasn't
really a turtleneck, but it hada little bit of a high crew neck
and jeans and nice tennis shoes.
And this friend of mine sharedlater this was his first
(05:47):
impression of me, was that I wasa finance guy from New York,
Morgan (05:55):
based on your you were wearing all black,
Chris (05:57):
I don't really know well, it was kind of the Steve Jobs
app, like the well pressed bluejeans with the black top, yeah.
And, you know, I think I can bea little bit reserved when I
first am in new settings. So Idon't know, with all of those
things he came up with. I'm afinance guy from New York, which
Morgan (06:19):
is almost right, not at all.
Chris (06:24):
I am the furthest thing.
I mean, that's an insult tofinance guys. But in fact, we
are going to talk a little bitabout money today. The Quick
disclaimer is, we are notexperts at money, nor do we
profess to be, nor are we givingany advice about money. This is
more about relationships tomoney and the place that money
sits in our lives and the rolesthat it plays. Yeah,
Morgan (06:49):
and I think one of the main reasons we wanted to do
this, first of all, it justfeels like money is one of the
main things that comes up, youknow, to the surface in midlife.
It's one of those things that'sa constant in a marriage that
you're, you know, like, what islike? One of the number one
leading causes of divorce ismoney issues, you know,
disagreements over money and andso money is just something we're
(07:12):
all thinking about, andespecially with today's economy,
it's a little wackadoo. There'ssome crazy stuff happening. And
the reality is that, to yourpoint, we we don't. We're not
going to talk about what to dowith money. If you listen to us,
you would probably, I don'tknow, lose all your money
overnight. Do not trust us withmoney advice. But what we do
(07:33):
find really interesting is thateverybody has a different
relationship with money, andthat relationship seems to
impact your decision making andthe way that you build your
life. So we really want to talkabout that again. No intention
whatsoever of giving moneyadvice or tips. If you have any,
please share. Yes.
Chris (07:53):
So I really, as I was thinking about this episode,
latched on to the emotionalrelationships that we have with
money, and I was looking forthings out there to kind of
reference or read to inspire memore about the show. And I
didn't find a ton. I did findone book called Money is
(08:13):
emotional by Christine Lucan.
And the book really ends upbeing sort of a book about
personal finance and gives a lotof recommendations, but she does
lead with the fact that we allhave emotional relationships
with money. And she uses thisanalogy. And Christine, if
you're listening to this, I'mgoing to totally butcher it, so
I'm sorry, but I'm kind ofparaphrasing. The example in the
(08:35):
book was basically you couldtake $10,000 and you could build
a house or a small shack intoday's economy, or you could
take that same amount of moneyand destroy a house that's
exist, and in either case, the$10,000 is the $10,000 the
$10,000 didn't do either thing.
(08:56):
It was the person behind the$10,000 that made the choice to
do the thing, and that reallystruck me as kind of a good
example of what I'm talkingabout. When I say money can be
emotional. I mean, money initself is just money. What
you're
Morgan (09:12):
saying there, it seems like is money is a tool, and
people are emotional.
Chris (09:16):
Yes, that's what I'm saying. Yes, I'm not emotional,
nor
Morgan (09:20):
am I, but everybody else is, yeah, that's a great point,
right?
Chris (09:25):
And then I started thinking about this interesting
parallel, and you and I weretalking about this the other
day, where I imagine thisspectrum, you know, I mean, I
like these, the spectrums, andat one end is the extreme saver
that the really frugal personwho just watches every penny,
which, by the way, I reallyrespect those people. Yeah, it
(09:46):
takes some discipline. And thenat the other end, you have the
extreme spender, right? And thenin the middle, there's probably
some kind of sweet spot wherethere's a balance. And what
struck me is both the extremespender and the extreme. Dream
saver are probably operatingfrom a fairly high level of
emotion. So there's actually acommonality of those two, even
(10:09):
though Outwardly they lookopposite Exactly,
Morgan (10:12):
yeah. And that emotion could be the same emotion, yeah.
It could be most often is fear,right? Fear, yes, yeah. So
you're right, we build thesestories around money really
early. I think it starts inearly life. We see how our
family manages money. We see howother people do it. We see we're
(10:32):
exposed to culture. You know,our culture growing up. And so
we get all these messages aboutwhat money means and how money
flows into our lives and all ofthat. And so I want to talk a
little bit about our own beliefabout money. And it's
interesting, because obviouslywe come from the same family,
but even with that, I feel likethere are some differences in
the way that we've built ourstory around money. So I
Chris (10:54):
want to ask you a question. Okay, do you remember
emperor of China?
Morgan (10:58):
Yes, for the folks that have that are listening. Emperor
of China was the Chineserestaurant that was like five
minutes from our house, and wewould go there for Friday night
dinners with the family almostweekly. It was either there or
chi Chis, yes.
Chris (11:12):
And there was a guy there that would literally play live
piano, yes. And he usually wore,like a tacky white suit tuxedo
or something, yes, yes. We'vehad a big Mustang. Okay, so
that's setting the scene. That'sthe backdrop. And we, of course,
had our Shirley Temples todrink. Yes? And do you remember
(11:33):
having conversations at some ofthose dinners around we're gonna
have to watch the spending and
Morgan (11:41):
vaguely, yeah, I feel like I remember those later,
like later, when I was more of ateenager, so maybe I was just
completely not paying attentionwhen I was younger.
Chris (11:52):
You might have been, because there's a four year
difference, yeah. And, you know,I feel like there were a few of
those dinners that made a realimpression on me, just in the
fact of I felt emotional aboutit as a kid, but I didn't really
know what that meant. What wasthe emotion? The emotion was
probably some relative of fear,right? But, but sort of this,
(12:13):
well, what does that mean? Like,right? We can't come out. We
can't do this anymore. I justdidn't really understand all of
the underpinnings of that, yeah,you know, but it wasn't a huge
deal. It's just something that Inoted.
Morgan (12:27):
So from that, what would you say your basic concept or
belief around money became,early on, I
Chris (12:33):
was thinking about this some, and one of the things I'm
almost embarrassed to talk aboutit, but I mean, we were pretty
well off as kids, we grew up inin a solid, you know, dual
profession. We never wanted forthings materially, yes, and you
know, I just really didn'trealize that as a kid. And I
(12:53):
remember some of the firstconversations where friends of
mine when I was a kid, pulled measide and said, You're really
well off. Yeah, you guys have alot of money. And I never really
thought of myself like I know,
Morgan (13:07):
I know, which is totally and that is probably going to
come up and show up inthroughout this whole episode,
right? I think you and I areboth very aware now the place of
privilege that we come from,yes, you know, and that
definitely colors the way thatwe interact with money and our
beliefs around money 100%
Chris (13:27):
what's really interesting to me is at least my experience
as an adult has been I've hadfar less money myself than we
had as a family growing up likeI don't live the same lifestyle
that I did growing up, right?
And that's okay, but it hasn'talways been. You know, there was
a time where I felt like reallyfrustrated by that, and felt
(13:49):
that I needed to chase down,getting that back, having that
stuff, having that which sort ofrelates to another point I was
going to make around materialthings and image related to
money, having material things asa status, yeah, and really
trying to kind of make up thatgap and land at least where you
(14:09):
grew up in, if not better.
Morgan (14:13):
Yes, man, there's loads to say about that, and I think
we'll touch on that more justwhen we start talking more about
like identity and money andmidlife can become very much
about identity, right? But Iwant to go back to, like, what
you were saying about the earlythe early belief around money
and that sort of fear that wassurrounding it, I think
interestingly for me, like,Okay, do you read my metaphor
(14:37):
for this very rudimentary beliefthat I had? Do you remember
dad's bills, basketball.
Chris (14:44):
Oh, my God. I remember the sound that the wicker made
when he picked that fucker up.
Morgan (14:51):
He literally had, it was like a two foot by one foot,
three inch deep wicker basketthat had, oh. The bills and the
papers and the receipts and allthis stuff, and he would tuck it
away in this really ugly browncabinetry that we had in the
living room. Okay? So once everyso often, I don't know how
(15:14):
often, but he would be out withthe bills basket, right? And it
was a cluster fuck.
Chris (15:19):
I mean, that fucking Bill basket was like a mythical
creature. I just didn'tunderstand it.
Morgan (15:27):
And so that that's sort of my metaphor for my
relationship with money earlyon, was that okay? When you tuck
away the bills basket, we're notthinking about it. It's not it's
not there, no big deal. And whenit was out, it was like in your
face, right? So what that boilsdown to is, for me, it was very
(15:49):
much like, buy what you wantwhenever you want it, figure it
out later, right? The good thingabout that, I always have
believed that money will bethere when I need it. Yes, it's
going to come somehow, some way,when I need it. The problem with
this very rudimentary version ofmy relationship with money is
(16:10):
that it definitely led tooverspending. Right? It leads to
this impulsive buying. Do youmean, instead of sort of a
vision, led purposeful planningto
Chris (16:19):
buy? Do you have any examples? So I
Morgan (16:22):
actually have a really good example when, when Matt and
I first got married, which wasearly on in my dental school
career. And when you're indental school, at least for us,
most students are completelyliving off of student loans,
right? So you're giving them,like every semester, I think you
get like a lump sum, and thenthat's it for the semester. And
then you got to make that work.
So with all my crazy budgetingskills, I did not budget a
(16:44):
thing. Now that is not to saythat I didn't keep track of what
we were spending, you know, II'm still very on top of it that
way, but I either miscalculatedor didn't, just didn't account
for certain things. Because wegot to spring break, my freshman
year of dental school, and wewere going to go, we were just
(17:05):
going to drive to Charleston,South Carolina, stay in a condo
that my friend, who was anotherdental student, her aunt, or
somebody owned it, she was goingto let us stay there for free.
So it was like this inexpensiveway, because we were going to
drive and just stay for free andjust hang out for the week,
right? The day before we'regoing to leave, I somehow look
at our balance and it's like $5I mean, it was low, and I was
(17:29):
the one managing the money, sothis was all on me. Like I felt
so ridiculous, ashamed, becausenot only am I going to have to
crawl to Matt and be like, um,something's wrong here. I did
something wrong. But also ourfriends were expecting us to
show up, so I was going to haveto like, be like, well, we can't
(17:51):
afford it. We can't afford this.
You know, no cost trip. Itwouldn't have made any sense. So
I can't even remember what weended up doing? Quite honestly,
I'd have to ask Matt, but I doremember that feeling of like,
Shit, this isn't gonna work.
Chris (18:10):
That is a really bad feeling,
Morgan (18:13):
yes, and I think from that moment on, Matt took it,
you know, happily, I was like,You got to do this. So Matt took
over overseeing our expenses andall of that stuff. Yeah, that's
my example of how that line ofthinking was, where that was
pointing me. I was
Chris (18:29):
gonna go into something smaller, like trail mix, but I
like yours
Morgan (18:37):
Well, and what you're referring to is an ongoing
argument that we have in myhousehold about the money that I
spend on the food that we eat,slash, don't eat in this house.
Now,
Chris (18:47):
while you and I are different with, like, our
emotional relationship to money,right, we both do spend a lot on
food. I
Morgan (18:54):
love food, food. And you know what I'm gonna for all you
moms out there who have kidsthat one week like one thing and
then the next week they hate,hate it with a passion. How in
the hell are you supposed togage exactly how much everyone's
gonna eat, whether they're gonnalike what you make? I'm sorry,
but it's too much. It's just toomuch. So I take a gamble every
(19:16):
week, and sometimes, probablymore often than not, it doesn't
work out, but whatever. So
Chris (19:21):
the little food anecdote in our house is, I like to cook,
and, you know, I'm pretty much,am the primary Cook, and we go
to the grocery store, and if Ibuy any sort of new spice, what
do you need? That spice forspices can be expensive. Oh,
they are expensive. They aredefinitely expensive. But you
Morgan (19:41):
use the spice, and spices don't go bad. That's my
other favorite line. They're notgonna go bad. I'll use it
eventually.
Chris (19:47):
And I do use, I do use the spices to that point. I do
Morgan (19:50):
want to bring up something that I heard I was, I
was doing my workout video as Ido, and the leader of the
workout, she always has. Like,motivational speech or something
in there, and she said somethingthat really struck me. I was
like, Man, that's so relevantand so true. She said something
can be highly valuable or it canbe really expensive, but it
(20:13):
cannot be both. And I lovedthat. I loved that, yeah,
because it's like, you put yourmoney into what is valuable to
you, and why is that valuable,and we can explore that more,
but I just want to for anybodythat has not heard that I loved
that it could be something tokind of think about.
Chris (20:31):
It does kind of tie back into that house story. The money
is a tool, like the $10,000 canbe used to do this, or it could
be used to do that or buy trailmix, but it's really the person
that drives that
Morgan (20:45):
some spicy trail mix.
Yeah? So you know what nexttime, if you're if your spouse
is like, why are you somethingcan either be highly valuable or
really expensive. You'rewelcome,
Chris (20:59):
but not both. Yeah? So unpacking money a little bit
more on the emotional side ofthings, and there's all of this
stuff around what having a lotof money means, yeah, or what
not having it means. And forsome people, I really believe
money's just not really that bigof an issue. And I've always
(21:20):
admired those people, like theyjust kind of live their life,
and they don't seem all thatinfluenced or motivated, like
they understand money isimportant at some level, but,
Morgan (21:30):
but it's like there's not a concern one way or the
other. Oh, yeah. It's like theyrespect that they need it, but
they're like, not worried aboutit, right?
Chris (21:40):
And they sort of have faith that it will come, but
they're not irresponsible withmoney, but also not hyper
vigilant about it. That might bewhat that sweet spot in the
middle is,
Morgan (21:50):
yeah, so now that we're in midlife, yep, paint the
picture of midlife. What are wedealing with, financially?
That's a little bit of achallenge.
Chris (21:58):
Well, I'm gonna come at this in a little bit different
direction. You know, the firstthing that I want to say, and I
think this, is really, I don'tknow, this really struck me.
This was in Christine Luke'sbook too. She talks about
treating money with respect,even to the point like, if you
have dollar bills, don't wrinklethem up, organize them and put
(22:18):
them away neatly, put your coinsin a jar like this is
interesting. Have respect foryour money. And you know, one of
the things that is coming to meright now is just in midlife,
one thing that's related tomoney that I'm really grateful
for is, if I compare now to whenI was a kid, I do have a lot
(22:40):
more experience with makingmoney, knowledge about how to
bring money into my life, andjust as an older professional,
it can come a little bit easierif I'm thoughtful about it. So
I'm grateful about that. On theother side, I got a lot more
outgoing. Yeah,
Morgan (22:59):
I think we all do kids
Chris (23:01):
headed to college. The you know, the retirement thing
is getting closer, and all ofthose kinds of expenses and
everything just gets moreexpensive. You want to take the
vacation because the kids aregetting older, and, yeah, that's
at the same time that you'rehaving to save for college. It's
a balancing act.
Morgan (23:21):
I think you hit the nail on the head when Matt and I sit
and talk about this, and he isdefinitely, I don't think he'll
mind me saying this, but he isdefinitely more his relationship
with money is very differentthan mine, and he is, again, he
is the one managing ourfinances, and so he's in his
face more. And yeah, this is atime when we're pouring, like,
(23:42):
literally bleeding money intoour kids and all of their
activities while we're stilltrying to be like, Okay, let's
create our little nest egg forwhen we're not working anymore.
Oh, well, it's a tight line towalk. I know
Chris (23:56):
there's also that concept of life is short, right? Yes, at
this phase, I realized that thekids are just growing up so
fast, and memories are soimportant. And I think about a
conversation we're having justyesterday about how are we going
to make this ski trip next yearhappen in the way that we want
it to? And really so money'sinvolved in that conversation,
(24:19):
but the motivation behind it iscreating an experience now which
we're recognizing is a specialmoment that's not going to be
with us forever.
Morgan (24:29):
Again, highly valuable.
Yes, highly valuable. And sothat's something I'm willing to
fork over money for,
Chris (24:37):
but it's in the backdrop of making sure all those other
responsibilities get filled.
Yeah, the other balancing
Morgan (24:43):
act, and you mentioned this yesterday, is we also in
this phase, often have agingparents, you know, and that
doesn't mean like we're not weare not quite there yet. We're
not taking care of our parents,but, you know, we're knocking on
the door of being in a placewhere, okay. What does that
aging process look like forthem? What kind of care might
(25:04):
they need? Are they financiallyset up to do that? Are we gonna
have to help with that? It feelslike all this weight falls on
us. We gotta take care of theyounger generation and ourselves
and the older generation. That'skind of the pressure that it
feels like we're under. Yeah,
Chris (25:20):
you know, I was thinking about the evolution of my own
relationship with money, and Iwould say, what's happening, I
think, over time, is that it'sless about status, or like
having to go back to the analogyof the workout woman, the
expensive things, and it's moreabout the higher value things.
And the way that I put it was,it's less about status and more
(25:44):
about experience. And there'sthis other little seedling
that's really starting to takehold, and that is the ability to
give back, yeah, and useresources and money in that way.
I'm
Morgan (25:57):
curious, like when you go back to your initial
relationship with money, yeah?
And you talked about, like, whatwould you say it actually is
you, I know you said it was sortof rooted in in fear. What would
you say your relationship withmoney was like, when I
Chris (26:11):
was a kid? Or, what do you mean? Yeah, like, early
days, oh,
Morgan (26:15):
before you really had responsibility. Like, what was
the messaging you took in? Andyou're like, that's how I'm
supposed to relate to money,yeah?
Chris (26:22):
Well, it was all about spending and having things when
I was younger, for
Morgan (26:28):
status reasons. Did you feel or, yeah? I
Chris (26:31):
think so. Like, yeah, there was something around
having the latest thing thatmade me feel good. Now, the
thing is that was only atemporary feeling, right? Have
to do it again, right? Like, thenext day, yeah, right. It's
like, this dopamine thing that'shappening. And I can remember,
(26:51):
like, back in fifth grade, doyou remember the Sharper Image
magazine?
Morgan (26:54):
Oh, yeah, I remember the one in the mall. You could go
there. They had this leather
Chris (26:59):
jacket in there that had, like, different flags now today
that I can't even believe I likethat jacket, but that was back
when Top Gun was fresh, yeah,and I wanted that fucking
jacket, and I couldn't have it,and I couldn't figure out how to
get it. And I can just rememberthat, and then I can sort of
track that like the first iPadwas 2010 and I remember going
(27:24):
and getting that thing andhaving people go, Oh, you've got
the new iPad. Yeah, feelingguilty inside because I
shouldn't have spent that money.
Yeah,
Morgan (27:33):
we grew up privileged, and we didn't really know it. So
when your friends pulled youaside to say, Hey, you're well
off. Do you think thatinfluenced the way you looked at
that like, oh, that meanssomething or that gives me a
status. I'm just curious. Well,I
Chris (27:50):
was a little bit embarrassed by it, because I
never really considered thatpeople's experience were
different, different than mine.
And remember, we're talkingabout me as a little kid? Yeah,
6789, years old. And so I guesswhat that did is it did plant a
seedling of be aware of otherpeople's situations and the fact
(28:11):
that they're not always likemine.
Morgan (28:16):
Does that color the way you look at people who have
money, like a lot of money now.
Chris (28:21):
Well, you know, we're kind of skipping around a little
bit because I, I really believe,until about five or six years
ago, I I kind of put having alot of money on this high
pedestal, and it was somethingthat I really wanted to have.
And I think some of that may bejust a fact that we came a
(28:42):
little bit from that. But, youknow, it's interesting, because
there goes the gratitude thingagain. You know, I think it's so
important to be grateful forwhat we have versus desire what
we don't have. And I've spent somuch of my life desiring what I
don't have, yeah, thinking thatwhen I could have whatever it
is, the bigger house, the bettercar, the money in the bank,
(29:06):
whatever it is, that I wouldautomatically become happy,
yeah, and at peace. And theshift has been, I've recognized
that a lot of those folks, theyaren't happy, because I've known
a bunch of people that have alot of things and a lot of
money, and I've been paying moreattention, and what I see is
(29:26):
that's not Nirvana, nope. Youknow, it can be or it can't be.
I think a lot of times moneyjust makes things more
complicated, especially ifyou're not really secure about
your own values and who you areand what your intentions are,
and all of
Morgan (29:44):
that stuff. Yeah, and I think this speaks to that what
we touched on earlier, which isabout identity. And if your
identity boils down to thethings that you have, which is a
reflection of your financialsituation, then you. That's
rocky ground. Yeah, you know, Ithink it works the other way
too, though. Like, if the reasonI asked you that question is,
(30:05):
like, if you are someone whosort of is ashamed, or looks at
people with a lot of money andsays, ooh, their priorities are
out of whack, right? That's notwhat I'm saying. You thought,
but I was curious. There arepeople that believe that, and I
wonder if that impacts the waythat they interact with money,
right? It's like, I will notallow myself to have that much
(30:27):
money, because if I have thatmuch money, that would mean XYZ,
you know, yeah, my prioritiesare out of whack. Or insert
whatever. So it can go. It cango both ways, however you view
it. I think the primary thingis, is really taking a look at
what is it about having thismoney that's important for me?
(30:48):
What's it going to do for me?
You know, what do you believeit's going to do? And if you
believe it's going to makepeople like you or make you seem
more important, you know, again,say all of these things about
your identity, then that's notreally talking about your values
as a person. You know. That'snot in support of who you really
are. That's you looking to moneyto make you somebody, which is a
(31:10):
very different thing, and you'regonna be chasing your tail
Chris (31:15):
well. And I think that as I have unpacked my own
relationship with money and howit's been changing. One of the
things that I've noticed is I amtending to to kind of shift to
more of experience basedspending, and like, my
priorities around how I spendmoney are changing. And what's
interesting is I'm not really asfocused on the money, like the
(31:38):
money is something that I haveto plan for, and I've got to be
organized and intentional aboutthat, but my focus is more
around what do I want to do?
Life is short, so what do I wantto do? What's my intention?
What's my goal? What are myvalues around the experiences I
want to have and the impact thatI want to make on the world
while I'm here, and then themoney is sort of like follows
(32:01):
behind that. Instead of saying,I want to have this house and I
want to have this car, and whenI get those things, you know,
Morgan (32:10):
yeah, it's like you have the vision. Then you ask, How
can money support this vision?
Chris (32:16):
Yes, and what do I need to do in order to support this
vision?
Morgan (32:21):
Yeah, which I think means that you have to be deeply
rooted in understanding who youare and what's actually
important to you, like whatactually matters. And that's
where things can be highlyvaluable, or they can be really
expensive, but not both. And
Chris (32:33):
there's also this degree of faith, and it's back to that
whole thing about control. All Ican do is understand myself, my
values, and make a plan based onthat. I cannot predict the
future. I cannot control whathappens or doesn't happen. So
there's a degree of faith that Ihave to have that if my plan
(32:55):
goes sideways, it's okay, a newplan will come. Yes,
Morgan (33:00):
that's what I was going to say, that my my more refined
belief about money today, andhonestly, I think I have a
fairly healthy relationship withmoney. If Matt were here, he
would smack me in the face rightnow. He would not, he would
never lay a finger on me, but,you know, he he would definitely
give me a look.
Chris (33:19):
He would go deal with trail,
Morgan (33:24):
because I will say, yeah, so. But what I believe
about money today is that stillmoney will always be there when
I need it, like the money that Ineed will always be there as
long as I show up and I workhard, I keep my eyes open to
opportunities that will arise.
And what you just said, Trust, Itrust. And so sometimes what
(33:44):
that means is that I have towait on certain things, like I
have a serious vision for ourhouse. I would love to renovate
it, like I've got pictures in myhead and I want to update
everything, and I can't do thatright now. We, you know, we just
can't feasibly do that. Thatdoesn't mean I'm never going to
do it. We will make it happensometime. It also means
(34:05):
sometimes I have to take a leapof faith financially, without
having any idea how it's goingto work, which sounds risky, but
trusting that it's going towork. Somehow. An example of
that is, you know, when wedecided to send the boys to
private school with like, sixmonths notice. We were not
financially in a situation wherethat was planned, right, and we
also knew this is the rightdecision. We will make it work.
(34:29):
Pros and cons of this. One, thepros are, I'm a lot more
accountable. I'm moreresponsible. I don't impulsively
spend as much as as much. I'mbetter. The tricky thing, you
know, the con about it is thatthe person that I'm married to,
and this is very common, doesnot see money the same way that
I do, and so we are constantlycircling this topic in different
(34:51):
ways, because we just have adifferent relationship with it.
He is a lot more likerestrictive and fearful and.
Practical. So we also balanceeach other really well. I can be
a little bit Woo, woo, like theuniverse will provide. And he's
like, No, that's me workingevery day, so I get it.
Chris (35:13):
So what do you think is enough money? I think
Morgan (35:16):
enough money is whatever money you need right now to
support your vision, yes, and Isay right now, because right now
is all we have. That's right,that's not to say that
retirement is not important.
When you're really visioning,you can have a vision for what
your retirement is going to be.
And so enough is in support ofthat vision as well,
Chris (35:38):
right? But I think there's also this concept of,
you know, within that definitionof enough, which is a very
individualized your enough isdifferent than my enough because
it's related to who we are aspeople and what our individual
visions are. One concept that Ithink is so important is to
honor the person of today aswell as the person of tomorrow.
(36:02):
Yes. And one huge trap that Isee is you're doing one or the
other back to that wholespectrum thing. Yeah, you're
spending it all today or you'resaving it all for tomorrow.
Yeah, it's like finding thatplace in the middle where you're
living your vision today, butyou're also building for your
vision tomorrow? Yeah,
Morgan (36:22):
Matt and I were having a talk about this not too long
ago. Because, of course, he'salways thinking about, Okay, we
got to put this away forretirement and but he's also,
you can see he's sort ofcalculating like, okay, but then
that means I have to have zerolife right now, and by the time
I retire, what the hell am Igoing to even be able to do
first of all, you know, like, amI gonna physically be able to go
(36:45):
travel and do the things that Ithink that I'm gonna be able to
do? And so you're right. Youhave to honor both. You have to
be accountable to both. It'sreally hard. It is really hard.
And it goes back to that emotionthing, you know, people are just
very emotional creatures, right?
And so this is just a sweepinggeneralization, but honestly, if
(37:06):
you think, if you go under allof the layers, I feel like the
primary emotion is fear in termsof spending, because if you're
over spending, maybe you'reoverspending because you want to
look a certain way, you want tocome off a certain way, you want
to project a certain status.
(37:27):
Because if you don't what youknow, you're afraid of whatever
happens, right? Maybe it makesyou like you said, you're
chasing that, that dopamine, itmakes you feel good in the
moment to buy the thing. Butthen you don't, it doesn't last.
So then you got to go do itagain. You're afraid to feel
what's underneath. Without thedopamine, we don't give credence
(37:47):
to our emotions enough. I don'tthink they are hugely powerful.
Chris (37:52):
Well, yeah, and anybody who's in a sales position, oh,
understand, just
Morgan (37:59):
right, they just, they exploit it. And I think that's
what consumerism is all about,
Chris (38:05):
right? Which the only real antidote to that is having
clarity on what it is thatyou're trying to do. Are you
seeking expensive things? Areyou seeking high value things?
You know, and what's underneaththat, emotionally? It's
Morgan (38:20):
another awareness thing.
I know we almost every time webring up self awareness, but
it's true how we are. We're allso busy going through life that
sometimes we're not steppingback and paying attention to,
oh, what is what's underneathit? Why am I doing this? Why do
I need this thing? Well,
Chris (38:37):
and we live in this time of kind of financial chaos. I
like the way you said that. No,it's like financial death by
paper cuts. Yes, you have 1595for Netflix, and then, oh, my
god, your Starbucks five days aweek. And that's like six to $25
depending on
Morgan (38:57):
how many. Oh, it's way too easy to convince yourself
that you're not spending thatmuch on these extra little
things. And by the way, I'm notsaying there's anything at all
wrong with those things. No, Ilove a lot of those things. But
it
Chris (39:09):
just goes back to that the awareness, that's why I
brought it. Yes, likeunderstanding the impact of that
and what it means to yourspecific situation, or what it
means to my specific situationis so important. Yeah, and there
was this other little conceptthat came up that I really
liked. I'm again, paraphrasing,but it came from that book, and
(39:30):
it was around awareness andtaking stock of what you spend
on all those little things, andthen realizing that a lot of
times what happens is, what wasonce a treat, like Starbucks
once a week becomes every day,and then, by the way, it's more
expensive, and it doesn't evenfeel like a treat anymore, yeah,
because you're doing it all thetime. So the question was, what
(39:53):
can you take in your life and,like, return it to the status of
a treat? I like that,
Morgan (39:58):
because you're not saying take it away. That.
That's right. You're like, howdo you make it special? Again, I
loved it. I was like, Oh, that'sa good idea. And you know what
there are? I'm sure you knowthere are apps now that you can
use to kind of track all of yourRando subscriptions that you
have for everything. Yes, I havenever checked them out, but I
can understand why they exist.
It would be nice to have a veryitemized list right in front of
(40:22):
your face, just something,something more in your face, so
that you can't convinceyourself, oh, it's not that big
of a doesn't have that much ofan impact, right? And I think
also back to being kind of woo,woo. Bottom line is, do you want
to have an abundance mindset ora scarcity mindset. Like, which
do you feel like is going toserve you the most, and how does
(40:45):
that really influence the waythat you make decisions about
things? Right? I feel like ifyou're coming from a place of
scarcity, you live in a place offear, right, right? And, and in
today's economy, that's not toofar off the mark. Like, I don't
freaking blame you, you know,right at the same time, how does
that influence the way that youI feel like it stifles your
(41:09):
ability to vision what youactually want. Like, Nope, it's
off limits. Can't have it.
Chris (41:15):
Yeah, if you're in a fear mentality, it's very hard to be
creative. I mean, those, thosetwo conflict each other.
Morgan (41:22):
Damn it. We're doing a practical dreaming thing again,
like it's how do all of ourtopics sort of weave back
together to well, we could justdo one podcast episode and be
done. That
Chris (41:32):
makes us sound far too simple. We are simple.
Morgan (41:40):
They know already by now,
Chris (41:44):
but I was gonna say, like, with the abundance
mindset, yeah, is I'm getting toa place in life where I'm just,
I'm thinking about that muchmore expansively than just
money.
Morgan (41:57):
Well, yeah, that's what I mean. It applies to the
everything in life. It's theidea that there is enough of all
of it, of love, of resources,yeah, yeah, all of it. It
changes the way you see stuff.
Chris (42:11):
It does and it for me, it helps take me out of that fear
of loss, that scarcity mindset,that mindset that says, if you
get to have this, then I don'tYes. The other way to think
about this is, if you get tohave it, then I can have it too.
There's enough for everybody to
Morgan (42:30):
have, right? If it's possible for you, it's possible
for me, let's celebrate all ofthat. Yes, that's a great way to
put it. So the next time you goto buy eggs, you see that
they're $100 for a dozen. Youknow, dream big abundance. Go
buy a chicken instead that thereis my one money tip. No,
Chris (42:50):
no. We said we're not giving any financial advice.
Morgan (42:55):
So what are your micronutrients from today?
Finance guy
Chris (43:03):
that you know money is not inherently emotional. Money
just is, but what is emotionalis us. You know, I'm an
emotional being, and I canexpress that emotion and the
intention that's wrapped up inmy own emotions through money,
and it's
Morgan (43:21):
a tool that you can make work for you, or you can make it
work you. That's
Chris (43:25):
right. So that ties into my second one, which is money
works best for me when I don'tmake it the sole focus, but
rather, I organize myintentions, desires and goals in
a way that's prioritized andaligned with my own values, and
then let the money follow that.
Morgan (43:45):
Yeah, I'm very, very much on the same page as far as
viewing money as a supportivetool in my life. And I feel like
I've always kind of seen it thatway. I don't feel like I need it
in order to be someone I don't Idon't ever want it to be
something that defines me,right? I'm also totally and
completely fine with wantingmoney and accepting money and
(44:08):
dreaming big with money, as longas it is, it's there to support
my values, my highest alignmentwith my values, and that also
includes ways that I give back.
You know, if you can see moneyas something that flows in and
out. It is a very fluidsituation. You're not holding on
to it, and you're also nothaving to reach to get it. So
(44:29):
it's, it's almost like I'm in amoney River. That's the imagery
that I want to hold on to, tokeep out of that fear place,
which, again, I know it's veryWoo, woo, and all the finance
people are like, shaking theirheads, and actually, they
stopped listening a long timeago. I believe that if I let go
of it, it's going to come backto me when I need it, like it's
(44:51):
just it's just there.
Chris (44:54):
I think my financial advisor is one of our listeners,
so I'll have to ask him,
Morgan (44:59):
Oh, he just stopped. He just totally unfriended me on
Facebook. I'm sure. Delete,delete. Okay. Well, do we have
any requests or mentions or
Chris (45:11):
Well, we are carrying on this new tradition of writing a
little recap and rekindlingconversation with our subscribed
listeners on the midlife mud.comif you go to that website and
sign up the
Morgan (45:27):
midlife mud.com you have to put the V in front of it, got
it, otherwise it's going to belike, What does not exist, yeah?
Chris (45:34):
So if you want to join that conversation, go to our
website and sign up for it.
Yeah.
Morgan (45:40):
We would love to have you as a part of the community,
because that's what it's allabout, is being a part of the
conversation and giving us moneyadvice.
Chris (45:49):
Other than that, we'll see you next time,
Morgan (45:51):
next time in the mud.
Chris (45:59):
Thanks for being with us in the mud today.
Morgan (46:02):
If you liked this episode, do us a HUGE favor and
subscribe to the show. This isgonna make sure you never miss
an episode, and it's gonna helpus grow our muddy community,
which would mean the world tous.
Chris (46:12):
See you next time in the mud you
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