April 15, 2025 • 54 mins
In this episode of The Midlife Mud, Morgan and Chris wade into the unpredictable waters of parenting teenagers in 2025. Sparked by the Netflix series Adolescents, they unpack the shifting landscape of teen life—from evolving social norms and emotional challenges to the ever-present tech and screen time debates. With humor and honesty, they explore how to stay connected, model empathy, and create space for real conversations (and even a little chaos). Spoiler: there’s no perfect way to do it—but showing up still counts.
Referenced in this episode:
📘 Raising Boys by Steve Biddulph
📕 Atlas of the Heart by Brené Brown
Join the muddy conversation: themidlifemud.com/join
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Morgan (00:00):
Welcome back to the mud, the mud. What's going on in your
(00:03):
mud?
Chris (00:04):
Well, I am steadily climbing through April, which
the weather here sucks. Probablyit's not as bad as the weather
where you are.
Morgan (00:15):
No, there's lots of actual, literal mud and flood
water where I am right now,there's literal
Chris (00:20):
mutt flood water. Yeah?
Here it's just rain anddepression, which is better than
what you have by
Morgan (00:26):
the way, I found out it was an EF three tornado that
went through like, 20 minutesfrom my house. That's a pretty
strong tornado. I love
Chris (00:33):
the story where you're like, Yeah. Mom went to take her
car to the shop the next day,and one of the walls was gone,
so she went home.
Morgan (00:42):
She didn't even know, like, she's like, I didn't hear
any sirens. I'm like, oh my god,Mom, get to the basement in
Chris (00:49):
some like, indirect way.
I'm kind of proud of her forbeing that disconnected. But
true,
Morgan (00:55):
probably a year ago they would have been glued, glued.
Yeah. What else is new?
Anything? Well, I
Chris (00:59):
feel like it's owed at least an acknowledgement,
because we have talked about himseveral times in different
episodes the passing of ValKilmer.
Morgan (01:08):
I know so sad, so sad.
Not that I was like followinghim a lot later in his in his
life, but I did watch thatdocumentary about him a couple
years ago, and wow, just man, hereally had it rough. The last 10
years of his life, he did
Chris (01:24):
and even in his earlier life, in more of an emotional
way, he had a lot of challengesthat he went through. Yeah,
Morgan (01:31):
so he will be missed, and I've seen a lot of the
tributes and that kind of stuff.
It's been fun to watch that, andactually more recent interviews
that I had not seen, which Ifound fascinating. It was neat
to see how self aware he hadbecome, yeah, you know, because
I know some people say he wasn'tsuper fun to work with when he
was younger. He says it himself,he was very egotistical, and he
thought he knew everything, andhe really made that work. And
(01:54):
his role as Iceman well and realgenius. Like, he really and real
genius, yeah, like, how muchacting was there, and how much
No, he was good. He was reallygood. And the doors, like all
the singing, the singing that hedid, I forgot about the door,
and even the singers or the bandmembers couldn't distinguish his
voice versus Jim. Jim Morrison,right? That's impressive.
(02:17):
Anyway, spring break justwrapped up, and our state just
passed a new law that kids atthe age of 15 can now get their
driving permit. And so I have anappointment in a couple weeks
for for my 15 year old to go gethis permit, which, you know, is
really exciting for him and alittle bit nerve wracking for
(02:38):
for us. But I was
Chris (02:42):
gonna say, Did you extend your meditation time each day,
you
Morgan (02:46):
know? But I have mixed feelings about it. I think it's
actually really it can be reallygood. Yeah, it's gonna give them
the opportunity to practice morein earlier on, because they
still can't get their licenseuntil they're 16. But right?
It's a reminder, a reminder ofof where I am in the parenting
journey, and it's a scary place.
Yes, 15. We've established 15 asthe shittiest age of all time.
(03:08):
It's bad.
Chris (03:11):
I did have one other thing that's quasi inspired by
what we're going to talk abouttoday, which you'll introduce in
a minute. But it is basketball,of course, is coming to a close,
and the women had their finalgame yesterday, and UConn, which
is in the northeast, obviously,won for their 12th time, I
(03:34):
think. And the thing that I likeabout this story is not the
sheer number of times have wonthat coach has been doing this
for 40 years, and I just therewas a moment at the end of the
game where one of the starplayers, Paige Beckers, comes
up, and she's a very tough kindof kid, and so this is not like
(03:56):
typical for her personality. Shecomes off the court, embraces
the coach and just startssobbing, and the coach returns
that. And I thought, you know, Ilove that, yeah, I love that
display of emotion publicly, andwhat it suggests that he was to
her and what she was to him. AndI just thought it was so cool,
Morgan (04:18):
yeah, yeah. I would love to see more of that? Yes. Okay,
well, what are we getting into?
What are we getting into today?
God, we wanted to talk moreabout just raising teens in
general in today's age. I don'tknow how many of you have
watched the show adolescents onNetflix, but that's sort of
where this conversation stemsfrom. And so if you have not
(04:41):
watched it, that's okay. Youdon't necessarily have to just
know that there may be somespoilers, but I would actually
recommend that you do watch it,whether you've got kids or not.
I think there's, there's a lotof important themes in it that
are just relevant for anybodywho's living in today's world.
So, you know, first off, we wantto talk a little. Bit about how
much has changed in parentingteenagers today versus when we
(05:07):
were teenagers, like 30 yearsago, right? It's, it's a lot
different than it was for ourparents, for better or for
worse, really?
Chris (05:14):
Yeah, well, the world has changed so much, tons, you know.
And I was trying to think ofways to just in a concrete
format highlight some of that.
But if we just look attechnology over the course of
the last 45 years or so, I mean,holy shit, we are living in a
totally different world. And Igot curious about it, and I went
(05:36):
back and and just for fun,created a little outline. There
was some testing of what we nowknow as the modern internet in
the 70s, but the acceptedbirthday of the modern internet,
even before we knew about dialup. 1983 was kind of when the
internet was born. That wasn'treally being used by anybody.
(05:56):
Yeah, widespread. It wasn't apublic thing, right? But
remember that little company?
AOL, oh yeah, you've got mail. Ihave a Pavlovian
Morgan (06:07):
response to that. I mean, that just makes me want to
go, Ooh, I gotta check it, you
Chris (06:11):
know? I know. So that was what year? Oh, geez, 1993 93 so
93 AOL, started assigningemails. So emails were starting
to get publicly used. Imaginethat. And then 95 AOL reached 1
million users, which is likenothing. Well, it reminds me of
(06:34):
Austin Powers when he's like $1million yeah. I mean nowadays
and influencers has, has like 50million followers, yeah. And
then flash forward to socialmedia, remember MySpace? Oh
Unknown (06:49):
yeah, oh yeah, I do 2003
Chris (06:53):
quickly followed by Facebook in 2004 Yeah? So that
was really the flash point forsocial media, as we know, and
then the first iPhone was 2007
Morgan (07:07):
I was pregnant with our first child. I mean,
Chris (07:10):
hold up for a second. We are less than 20 years in, yeah.
Morgan (07:14):
And that's the thing.
It's it's been exponentiallyfaster, right? And now here we
are with AI, right? And who thehell knows what's going to
happen with that and what theimplications are there? Well,
Chris (07:25):
AI is a funny thing, because it's already so
pervasive in our world. And Ithink some of us are well
informed on that, but many of usdon't even realize the extent at
which it's used. AI is beingused today, not tomorrow, and
has been and has, yeah, agreed.
So that's a quick little walkdown technology lane. Certainly,
things are a lot different nowthan they were in 1983
Morgan (07:51):
a shit ton different, right? Yeah. Things are
different than the King's Questdays the Oregon Trail.
Chris (07:58):
We used to, we used to call dad in the middle of work
to get like the prompt code, theDOS language to type in to get
onto King's question.
Unknown (08:09):
Such a fun game.
Chris (08:12):
And then he had that template that he would lay out
across his keyboard so that hecould use the word processor.
Remember, that was literallylike a cardboard fold out, yeah,
Morgan (08:24):
oh, God. So we've come a long, long way. Um, yeah, I'm
not sure exactly where we are,but we've come a long way from
where we were. And, you know,there have been a lot of of
other things, aside fromtechnology, that have, that have
evolved and changed in the last30 years. You know, we have a
lot more LGBTQ rights. Theconcept of gender roles has
(08:48):
really loosened a lot. You know,it's not like women are staying
home and being the homemaker andmen are the breadwinners. That's
shifted even more in the last 30years.
Chris (08:57):
And it's interesting, that's a good one to bring up.
And it strikes home for me,because we grew up in a time
when that was really beginning.
Yeah, you know, we were thefirst generation where,
pervasively, men and women wereboth starting to work. Yes, and
that whole term, rememberlatchkey kid? Oh, that's so that
was us. That was us. Yeah. Imean, no, Nana was there. That's
(09:20):
true.
Morgan (09:23):
She was, but I think that was we were starting to see
that, like mom was working tons,dad was working tons. The
difference was that mom was alsostill doing most of the home
making, I know, and workingtons, which wasn't fair, which
wasn't fair, right? And so nowthat's shifted even more to
where men are. Men are doing thelaundry and the cooking. Men are
(09:45):
staying home with the kids. Menare it's it's all blurred more,
right there. There's not thesedistinct roles anymore, which
is, is a big change even, eventhe concept of gender identity,
you know, and fluidity hasshown. Shifted over time, which
that's a whole topic in and ofitself. We've had the metoo
movement. People are believingwomen more when it comes to that
(10:08):
kind of thing. Yeah, there's avery much. And I think we saw a
really big boom with COVID andthe pandemic. This increased
awareness of mental health andthe importance of mental health.
So some of these things aregreat that have changed, but the
bottom line is that a shit tonhas changed since we were
(10:29):
teenagers, right? And so we asparents are navigating what feel
like Uncharted Waters. You know?
I mean, first of all, we'venever parented before, right? So
that's it's Uncharted in thatway. But it's also like, we
don't have the luxury of goingto our parents and being like,
Hey, what did you do aboutsocial media with your kids or
with us? It wasn't even aconcept back then. So, right?
(10:49):
Big change. So
Chris (10:53):
how does all that really tie back to the adolescent show?
Morgan (10:57):
Yeah, let's just take a sec to talk about that show. Who
I think I came to you and said,Hey, I don't even know what to
say, but I feel like you got towatch this,
Chris (11:08):
right? And I was like, oh, you know, okay, and, but no,
Morgan (11:12):
no, no, this is not like a sit down and relax kind of
show,
Chris (11:16):
right? I watched it, and I think I texted you something
to the effect of fuck. There's alot there. I don't even know
what to do with that, yeah,because it's just such an
intense show, and the way thatthey frame it is so intense,
yeah, you know. And it reallymakes an impact. Yeah?
Morgan (11:35):
The fact that they shoot it all in one each episode is
one shot, yeah, really makes youfeel like you cannot come up for
air. And
Chris (11:44):
even the way that they'll, like, pick someone that
comes into the room, and thenthey'll follow that person out
of the room, and now you're inthat person's reality. Yeah,
it's very well done in that wayand impactful, I'll tell you.
The number one thing that I tookaway was just a tremendous
amount of empathy. And dependingon what episode and what the
(12:05):
focus was of that episode, Ifelt empathy for every single
one of the main characters, not
Morgan (12:12):
to take away from the fact that the crime itself. No,
the girl being murdered waswrong. She was absolutely the
primary victim, absolutely, butoh my god, everybody in this
show was a victim in some way,in a way. Yeah, right. You can't
watch it and not be affected bythat. Yes,
Chris (12:32):
the other thing that really struck me is this kind of
polarizing difference in therealities of the adults and the
reality of the teenagers twodifferent worlds, it just really
struck me, like, whoa, twodifferent worlds that lacked a
really good connecting point. Sothere was just so much, like,
(12:54):
lost in translation, yeah. Andthere was a lot of tragedy in
that, going back to the empathy,because I could see, like, Oh,
if only this had happened, or ifthey had known this, like they
could have stepped in, it couldhave ended differently and and
they
Morgan (13:09):
probably would have Right, right. Like, these
parents are not deadbeat parentswho don't give a shit about
their kid. And you know, theseare parents who are flawed, like
all of us are. They have theirown crap, you know, that they're
their own histories that they'rebringing into their parenting,
but they love their kids. Andeven still, this tragedy
(13:29):
happens, you know, and so itdoes make you look at yourself
and go, Well, shit, what do Ineed to do? What can I do? What
am I doing, you know? Or what doI need to do that I have not
been doing? And another
Chris (13:40):
pause point, and this really speaks more to the
structure of the show that Ithought was really I like the
way that it was done, was thearresting police officer had a
son that was a peer of all ofthese kids that went to school
together, and so he wasn't freeof this either, like he didn't.
There were a lot of things thatwere lost in his world as well,
(14:03):
that his kid was going throughhe didn't understand it, just
like the aggressors parents werein the dark too well.
Morgan (14:10):
And I think I don't know that that's necessarily super
unique in that I think as asteenagers, I remember feeling
like I've got this whole lifethat mom and dad, like, aren't
privy to right? Because we just,you know, we don't talk about
that stuff. And I'm, I'm, like,growing up, I've got my own
identity, you know, I knew thatmom and dad were there if I
(14:30):
needed them. But aside fromthat, it was like, I've got my
life. And I don't think thatthat's unique to adolescents. I
just think that now, the extentto which that is happening, and
the reach of our communitiesbecause of online life is so
drastically different than itused to be, which just amplifies
(14:52):
that. Yeah,
Chris (14:52):
so the way I think about that is you take a really hard
time of life, which is coming ofage, right? And identifying
yourself as a unique person,separating from your family
model, right,
Morgan (15:05):
which is what you're supposed to be doing in that
time frame, right? And then you
Chris (15:09):
add on to it, this other layer of stuff, this whole world
that is kind of a little bitoutside of the physical world,
and it's less seen, and it'sless talked about, and it's more
private. It's very challenging,yeah, and
Morgan (15:26):
back to social media and online presence. I feel like
that emboldens people to behavein ways that they may not in
person. And it just, it justfans the flames, right? You
know, yeah, my response to theshow, I couldn't help but be
viewing it from a parentalperspective. I mean, I think
there's a whole lot there, butmostly I was viewing it through
(15:49):
the lens of a parent, like, if Iwere those parents, you know,
I've got three teenage boysright now, and so I kept putting
myself in the shoes of Jamie'sparents, and it just made me
feel this combination of realsadness for him and sort of that
reminding, unsettling feelingthat I am not in control yet
(16:13):
again. You know, as a parent,there's only so much you can do,
and we'll talk a little bit moreabout like, what can we do? But
it feels like, God, they'retheir own people, and they're
gonna make their own decisions.
You know, I actually reached outto some people on Facebook about
this, like people that havewatched the show, and what did
they think? And sort of theresponse was, man, I really feel
sorry for these kids, you know,like there is so much extra
(16:36):
noise that we did not have todeal with when we were kids. And
as parents, we are cluelessabout what's out there. We don't
know. Yeah, and again, back tothat idea that we ultimately are
not in control, even when we doknow these things, even when we
are educated, we still have tolet go and let them do what
(16:59):
they're going to do. So therewas a lot of instant like, Okay,
I want to know, I want to knowhow I can do the best I can as a
parent. So I think that's reallyprimarily where this episode
stems from. And
Chris (17:13):
maybe there's two themes there around parenting, at least
in today's world, how do we keepthem safe, and how do we stay
connected? Yeah, and honestly, Ireally get stuck with these. I
do too. I don't have any magicformula. I can tell you that I
worry about these. Yeah, everyday, every single day.
Morgan (17:34):
I think these are the bottom line questions that I
have, because I feel like, if Ican do those two things, I can I
can let go, and they can do whatthey are going to do, right? But
those are two things that arethey're not always easy to do,
especially with teenagers. Soyeah, that's the primary theme
of what we're going to talkabout today, also woven into
those which we won't spend a lotof time on, but kind of the idea
(17:58):
of generational trauma. You cansee it in the show, in the way
that Jamie's dad talks about hisown dad and that whole situation
and how then it's passed down toJamie. And I think there's
plenty to be said about theeffect of generational trauma,
unless we deal with our stuff asa family and personally,
(18:20):
individually, that stuff isgoing to trickle straight on
down, right? So that'simportant. There's also this
concept of what they call themanosphere, which really fosters
toxic masculinity as a responseto ultra feminism. So we talked
about how, you know, things haveshifted more the metoo movement,
(18:41):
and women are like, big andstrong, and this is great, and
I'm all about this, by the way,but there are some groups of men
that feel threatened at the sametime, and they've gone down this
rabbit hole called themanosphere, where they're really
teaching all this rhetoric Aboutaggression towards women to sort
of regain quote power, and thatwas at play for sure in this
(19:05):
show. But let's talk more aboutwhat the unique struggles are in
parenting teenagers today. We'vealready said adolescence is
just, it's a it's not the mostfun time. I mean, I remember my
adolescence. I don't know thatthere's any adolescent that
loves adolescents, you're tryingto figure out who you are, yeah,
you're trying to break away andestablish independence, and it's
(19:27):
like a push pull all the timewith your parents, right?
Chris (19:31):
I mean, even even to the degree of like, taking more time
in the bathroom and not beingtold, like, when it's time to
eat, or when it's time to getup, or there's this ironically
natural desire in this period oftime to start trying to control
the circumstance more, in aneffort to emerge as a unique
(19:54):
person. And you know, we'redoing this in this complex
backdrop of. Of having this,this double life. There's the
physical life people in thehouse that I live in, right?
Morgan (20:06):
You mean the real one, the actual real life, yeah,
Chris (20:10):
the one that I can like, touch physically. And then
there's the digital life. Andhonestly, I feel like an infant
in that I don't reallyunderstand what it is to have a
digital life in the way that mykids do, yeah. And as such, I
feel completely unequipped,yeah, to manage the complexities
(20:34):
of that like I don't evenunderstand it. I
Morgan (20:36):
wouldn't even know where to look for some of this stuff.
No,
Chris (20:40):
I don't. And so going back to the show for a minute,
it it's one of the points that Ijust had such deep empathy for
the parents, because mytakeaway, or kind of assessment
of the situation, is that beforethe murder basically happened,
the parents had some clues, notthat that was going to happen to
that extreme, but that maybethings weren't right, and they
(21:02):
were just telling themselves,Well, I don't know, maybe it'll
be okay, and then it clearlywasn't okay. Yeah, and I think
that's everybody's worst fear asa parent, is certainly mine, is
that something horrible is goingto happen and I didn't take
action when I could have andyeah, how do I even know, and
because I do want them to beindividuals, I don't want to
(21:24):
like be over controlling, right?
Morgan (21:26):
But it is. It's one of those things where
retrospectively, you can lookback and be like, Oh yeah, those
are red flags. But in themoment, would I have noticed the
flags I don't know, right? Ithink it's difficult, because at
least for me, I really want togive my kids enough rope to
explore and figure out theboundaries of who they are for
(21:50):
themselves, but they still gotto be attached to the rope. What
I mean? I'm not going to justlike, cut them loose, because
they're not adults yet, and soit's a tricky line to walk. I
think there are times when Iwish I had never gotten phones
for my kids, at least not thatthe not at the ages that they
were. I think there are choicesthat we can make as parents, and
(22:12):
again, they're very individualchoices. Right? You do what you
feel is right for you and yourfamily. God, it
Chris (22:18):
is such a slippery slope, though. Yes, because yes, I can
call all the time, and I can bein touch, and I can put on, I
know, you know, the locationtracking and all of that stuff.
But then, you know, is that overcontrolling? First of all, yeah.
And then second of all, you're,you're giving them access to all
of these other things, of whichit's hard to support it
Morgan (22:41):
is well, and maybe you're not giving them, you
know, maybe you have it lockeddown to a certain degree. Oh,
yeah, that's
Chris (22:47):
worked real well for you.
That's, that's how we
Morgan (22:49):
started out, exactly, you know, they they wear you
down. Or you can get this oneapp that, by the way, didn't
even realize does XYZ. And bythe way, once they've downloaded
it, you can't take it away. Youcan, you can delete it, but then
if you ever give them the appstore back, they can re download
it without permission, becausethey've downloaded it in the
(23:10):
past. So it does, it gets reallyslippery, and then then it
becomes like, Okay, do Iphysically take away the device
for a period of time? Or, or,you know, I've even toyed with
the idea of, like, maybe I justgive them a watch, they just
have the watch, and so I canstill see where they are, and
they can still call me and talkto their friends, but like,
(23:31):
there's no social media on thewalk watch. There's no, I don't
think there's any perfectsolution. You know, even the
people that are not gettingphones for their kids, there's
issues with that too. There's,you're going to run into some,
some problems with that too. Soit's really just like, pick,
pick your poison. Well,
Chris (23:46):
and I look at it this way, the reality is, I mean, we
just talked about it. Technologyis here and it's going to be
here, and it's not going to behere like it is now. It's going
to be even more prevalent. It'sstill rapidly evolving. And so
to not give them a phone and notbe working with how to manage
(24:09):
this effectively, is and then
Morgan (24:10):
all of the sudden, when they turn 16 or 18, then you,
then you give them the phone.
Chris (24:16):
I know it's a real conundrum of which I profess to
have zero clue, no answers,yeah, but I have a lot of
questions. And quite frankly,depending on the day, anxiety
about it, I do too.
Morgan (24:31):
And there's also the fact that schools are utilizing
phones more in the education,right,
Chris (24:38):
which, on one hand, is quite appropriate, because when
you get in the workplace, right?
Guess what? Technology ispervasively used, right? But
Morgan (24:47):
so it again, it just feels like we were talking
earlier about this, thisgravitational pull, like we
don't even have a a choice.
We're all being pulled with thistechnology. A tractor evolution,
exactly. And so as parents, Ifeel like I'm I'm constantly
sort of playing tug of war. I'mdigging my heels in to just slow
(25:08):
it down a little bit or dosomething so that it's not so
prevalent in my kids lives. I'mnot really succeeding, by the
way, but that's what I'm tryingto do. And I want to talk a
little bit more about becausethis show is centered around
this boy, right, who commitsthis crime. And that hits home
(25:29):
for me with my boys being theages that they are. And it
really got me thinking about,what is it to be a man. You
know, how do boys in this dayand age? What are they looking
to? What are they influenced by?
And what does it really mean tobe a man? So
Chris (25:52):
I'm just gonna ask another question, not really. I
don't have an answer. It's notChair.
Unknown (25:59):
I wanted the answers to the universe. You know,
Chris (26:02):
as a man, this seems so critical to me, and it's
something that I am stillworking on as a man, and that is
how to show compassion anddemonstrate empathy as a man,
which
Morgan (26:16):
I want to say, I feel like there has been a trend over
the course of the last 30 years.
I mean, just like I said, genderroles have started to kind of
dissolve a little bit. You know,there's a trend towards men
being able it being moreacceptable, I'll say for men to
show up in that way.
Chris (26:36):
Right? Yes, this conversation gets really complex
with gender roles and fluidity.
What I'm talking about is, youknow, my identification is as a
man, so as a man, that includes,you know, some masculine roles.
But how do I show compassion andempathy within that construct of
(26:56):
identifying as a man? Yeah. Andthat may not be everybody's
question, right, depending onwhat gender you identify with,
but that's one that I certainlyconnect with. And when I see
other boys that are identifyingas boys slash men, my challenge
to myself is, how am I modelingthat, and how am I demonstrating
(27:19):
it. And that's part of why Ibrought out the UConn women's
coach, because that was a publicdisplay of a guy, you know,
really showing some compassionfor someone in an emotional way,
in a very public setting. Yeah,
Morgan (27:36):
that actually makes me think about the book raising
boys. Yeah, he talks about howin the course of a boy's life,
ages like one to six is wherethe mom is incredibly important,
and then between like six and 14is when dad is then layered in,
you know, as a really importantfigure. And that's when they're
(27:58):
starting to look to their dad aswhat it what it is to be a man,
what a man does, how he behavesin the world. And then from 14
on, you're looking at mentors,male mentors, yeah, become
really important. And youtalking about that coach, even
though I know it's totallydifferent situation with, you
(28:20):
know, a college female team, butthat is, I feel like that's part
of where boys are looking, youknow. So my boys are in that
time frame now where thoseoutside men are influencing and
So who are those? Are theycoaches? Are they, or are they
some randos online? You knowwhat I mean? I mean, so
Chris (28:38):
I have this really cool visual memory that comes to mind
with your oldest, two boys. AndI was visiting from out of town
on one of my work trip thingsback when I was traveling a ton
for work. And it's funny howthis moment becomes more
powerful now than maybe it wasin the moment. But I got up at
(29:01):
like, five in the morning. Oh,yeah. And we, we had said, like,
I'm gonna get up at five in themorning, but it wasn't announced
multiple times or anything likethat,
Morgan (29:10):
because you had a really early flight or something super
early. Yeah. So, and forreference, how old were they?
They were, what, 11
Chris (29:16):
and nine, nine and seven, yeah, something like that. They
were not too cool for us yet,no, but I went up to the kitchen
to get the ironing board to ironmy shirt because I had to go to
meetings all day and be dressedup, and I'm in the kitchen, and
the two boys come down in theirpajamas and just sat on the
floor and talked to me at fivein the morning. And they did
(29:39):
that on their own. Yeah, theyjust wanted to watch me iron my
shirt, and they were invested init. They were asking questions
about ironing shirts. And, yeah,amazing. And
Morgan (29:49):
you are, you are one of those mentors for them, 1,000%
Chris (29:53):
you know, right? And there's a great honor in that.
But also there's kind of this,like, Whoa, boy, I've been. I'm
I better tighten it up here,yeah,
Morgan (30:08):
but, but it's true. It really, it really speaks to the
whole it takes a village, yeah,to raise kids, you know? And it
is true for girls too. Therewere, I'm really just honing in
on boys because of this show,and because the teenagers that I
currently have are boys, and soI can only speak to that
experience right now, yes, but Iam. I'm constantly thinking
like, Okay, I know they'relooking at their dad. I know
(30:31):
that they're looking at you. Iknow they're definitely
influenced by by whatever'sgoing on online, and so being
diligent about taking a peekinto that world. You know what
that looks like? Who they'retalking to, by the way, I hate
Snapchat. I hate it, I hate it,I hate it, I hate it.
Chris (30:51):
So there, there's a really interesting challenge for
me to understand, right? Becauseon one hand, the norm seems to
be. And again, I'm an idiot whenit comes to this stuff, so I may
not be understanding itcorrectly, but we're taking
pictures of it's common to postlike, where you are, like, what,
(31:11):
what you look like. You know,there's this certain facial
expression that seems common.
There's like, this languagearound it, right? But in doing
that, you're not actually in thephysical moment that you're in.
You're in the digital momenttaking a picture of your
physical moment. So where areyou, like, what moment are you
(31:31):
actually, right? Well, it's adouble life thing, like you
said, right? Maybe I just needtutoring about it. I don't Well,
I feel
Morgan (31:40):
like I know a little bit, and I still feel clueless,
right? You know, right? I mean,and I think too, with being
online and having so much of adigital presence, not being in
the life that you're actuallyin, I think there's also this,
like, we're depleted of empathy,right? When we're not able to
(32:00):
actually be in real life asmuch. And so the adolescents
show really highlighted. Okay.
How do we teach our kids empathyin today's world? Can we just
break down empathy a little bit?
Yeah, like, what is empathy?
Yeah, what is it? So I think ofit as being able to put yourself
in someone else's shoes. Yeah,right.
Chris (32:22):
I definitely agree with that. And I mentioned the word
compassion, yeah, a little bitearlier. And to me, that's the
understanding of the fullspectrum of life, right? It's
the understanding and acceptancethat life is full of struggles,
but it's also full of joy and itcan be full of sadness, like
it's the whole range foreverybody, right? And so having
(32:46):
compassion is super paramount tobeing able to have empathy,
because to be able to putyourself in someone's shoes, you
have to accept and understand,like that range of emotion,
yeah,
Morgan (32:58):
and then you're able to extend compassion. So back to
that question, like, how do weteach that to to our kids? And
you know, I would say for sure,modeling that in the way that we
interact with our kids, andalso, you know, other
relationships that our kids areseeing. And I think there's
something really important aboutbeing present with whatever is
(33:22):
showing up. Like, that's whatmodeling empathy is. And so I
keep thinking of like mydaughter came up to me the other
day and, you know, she wanted totell me something, or she said
something about how school hadgone well that day. And I said,
Well, you know why? What's up?
She said, Nothing, it's it'snothing. And I kind of, well,
no, like, what is theresomething you want to talk
(33:42):
about? I'm here if you need me,whatever, right? And she said,
No, you'll just think it'sstupid. And so that was like a
clue to me that there haveprobably been times at her age
Now, granted, she'll come to mewith things like, oh, so and so,
stole my slime, and now we'renot best friends anymore, you
know, which can seem reallytrivial to me as an adult,
(34:04):
because I'm like, Why does slimematter? And you're not going to
remember this girl 10 years fromnow. Anyway, it's okay. Friends
come and go, or you'll be bestfriends again tomorrow. Like,
that's how fast these thingsturn around, right? And it made
me realize, like, I could dobetter at being empathetic right
now, like early on, and thatwill pave the way, first of all,
(34:26):
for us to be more connectedlater, when it gets to be more
challenging, when she's ateenager. And also it models
that empathy. It models that forthem, so that they can do that
for other people. Your
Chris (34:40):
example just points out how easy it is to innocently
miss an opportunity to showempathy. Another thing that I
thought about when I wasthinking about modeling empathy
and compassion is another like,it's getting more and more
common the road rage like, howmany times. Either have I been
(35:02):
like, honked at and basically,like, verbally assaulted. I
usually don't honk, butoccasionally I will on the other
side, but like, that's notmodeling empathy and compassion,
right? And it it is acommonplace thing happening in
our society. I'm not blaminganybody for any road rage, but
what I'm saying is that is acommonly accepted practice. It
(35:25):
happens all the time,
Morgan (35:26):
right? And that's with someone that you don't even
know, and so it's really easy tojust write them off as well.
They're a shithead, right? Butyou're right even just saying
out loud, well, maybe they werein a really big hurry and they
didn't see me, or just givingthe generous assumption is
practicing that empathy,
Chris (35:43):
even with myself, aside from anybody else being in the
car, I have created this littlechallenge and game for myself to
take a moment and say, I wonderwhat is going on for that person
today, like right now? Yeah,
Morgan (35:57):
getting curious, right?
I think there is very much anelement of curiosity to being
empathetic, yes, because youcan't ultimately know
Chris (36:06):
well, and again, the idea of being present in someone
else's experience and orfeeling, or like, if you're not
present, you're not curious,right,
Morgan (36:17):
right? And you have to be a little more objective. You
have to be standing back hereinstead of in your own shit. If
you are not able to sit withyour own shit, you know, like
your own feelings and your ownstuff, you're not likely to be
able to sit with someone else'sstuff either, right? Which that
impedes empathy. I think that'sanother piece here of teaching
(36:40):
empathy and being able to modelempathy is that we've got to get
better at knowing what's goingon with us and holding space for
ourselves to experience whateverwe're experiencing. We are so
constantly in our societyescaping we're chasing the shiny
thing to get away from the stuffwe don't want to deal with,
(37:00):
which is like anythinguncomfortable or inconvenient or
all of that.
Chris (37:05):
Yeah, it could be hard to even know how to interpret
what's going on with your ownbody. Like, what does it mean
when you feel a feeling in yourgut like a literal, physical
feeling? What do I do when Ifeel a pressure in my chest?
Take a Tums. No, no, turn onNetflix. God, you're not
listening.
Morgan (37:25):
There's got to be some kind of magic pill to fix that,
something that's all I'm saying.
Yeah. So it is a challenge. I Wealso mentioned last last
episode, the concept of play andhow play can foster empathy. And
I think especially with boys,you have said yourself, and in
this book that I was sayingraising boys, they talk about
this idea of wrestling and likephysically rough housing, which
(37:45):
I can't stand as a mother, it islike, totally against what I
want in my household. Like Iwant everything to be calm and
peaceful, but without fail. AndMatt has been doing it from day
one is hard wired. Yes, he wouldcome home from work in his
scrubs and all and, like, sethis keys down, and instantly
(38:09):
start rolling on the floor withthe boys when they were little.
And even now, like, right beforewe go to bed, sometimes they'll
start picking at each other, andthey all of them, start getting
into this pile of bodies. Andjust like, do
Chris (38:24):
you remember when we came home from New Mexico and we were
all piled into your bedroom forsome reason, and Penny was in
there and the dog, the dog waslike mouthing, like wrestling
with all and barking, and me andthe boys were like wrestling,
and yes, everybody was in there.
Unknown (38:45):
That's exactly like.
That is a typical scene. And Idon't even know why, trust
Morgan (38:50):
me, I don't either, but it is you're compelled to do it.
I don't know. But in this book,he talks about how that's like,
a critical thing for boys inparticular, because they can
start to learn limits andboundaries, what's too much and
what's too little. And to
Chris (39:08):
be fair, and you brought this up before, but I'm sure
women and just people ingeneral, we all have our
different ways of learning thisstuff, learning empathy,
learning physical boundaries andhow to healthily communicate
physically? Yeah. I mean, Ican't tell you how much just in
my own experience as a person,can be communicated in a hug,
(39:33):
the way that someone hugswithout padding, by the way.
Well, the padding is a signal,or not a signal, right? That's
part. That's, like, part of thelanguage of hugging. Yeah, you
know, you can come in, like,just shoulder contact, you could
go full body, the sideways hug,yeah, you know, it's the full,
squeeze, the half, squeeze, thetap on the shoulder, the the no
(39:55):
forearm contact, the fullforearm. I mean, there's so many
ways. That we can physically anddo physically communicate with
each other. But, you know, wehave to learn that we
Morgan (40:07):
do. And I think some of some of that has been taken
away, some of the opportunityfor that has been taken away
naturally by all of this, all ofthese devices and phones. Well,
we're
Chris (40:17):
just not interacting in the same way to some degree like
that. That's just anobservation, but I'll tell you
that when I go into a restaurantnow, what I don't see is,
remember when we were kids, andthey had all the little arcade
games, and we would go in, we'dbe like, Mom, Dad, give us a
court, give us some quarters,and we would be sitting in
(40:37):
there, ironically, playing on ascreen, right, very primitive
screen, but we were interactingand like banging on the buttons
and being aware of each otherand all of this stuff. Yeah,
flash forward 35 years, and nowthere's no quarters. We just
have our own phone. And I couldbe talking to you and playing a
(41:00):
game, but you might be in adifferent state, and it's just
different. It's an interaction.
It's just not the same one.
Yeah,
Morgan (41:07):
so before we kind of wrap up with micronutrients, I
want to talk a little bit moreabout my kids have phones. They
have laptops. You know, theseare things that we gave them
long ago. I'm realistically nottaking them away. But you know,
some things that we dosometimes, or have done in the
past, and I probably am going toimplement again, is giving them
(41:29):
breaks from them, like physicalbreaks from them, meaning taking
them away in the in the eveningtime, at least, so that they
don't feel so compelled to lookat it. It is like a
gravitational pull. I feel itmyself as an adult, if it's near
me, I sometimes want to pick itup and look at it. So yeah, like
setting that boundary, I thinkis helpful. I also am curious
(41:53):
what you think about monitoringwhat it is, who they're talking
to, what they're saying. Youknow how much? Because this is
not something that our parentsdid, you know, like we, we
didn't text anything. There wasno, I guess they could have read
some written, handwritten notes,you know, that we wrote back and
forth, but they didn't have thatoption. And so, is it an
(42:15):
invasion of privacy, or is itbeing safe? You know, how do you
how do you reconcile
Chris (42:22):
that? I feel like that is a pretty personal decision.
Yeah, but what I think is soimportant is that there is
connection around what ishappening or not happening
digitally and and also like inthe physical world, like having
a conversation, having aconnection around that, versus
(42:45):
this, being just a silent like,Oh, we're just all on our
phones, yeah, you know. And forme, like my personal take on
this is it's important to havesome level of understanding, but
I'm also conscious about notwanting to be, like, hyper
controlling, either? And it issuch a fine line, I don't
(43:06):
profess to know how to do it, orwhat the right point is to be,
yeah, with it, I will tell youthat one question I ask all the
time, like, multiple times anhour, sometimes, what are you
doing on that thing? What'sgoing on, like, and I don't do
it in a in a what do you do?
Like, an accusatory it's more ofa, I'm hoping for some little
like crack in the doorway tojust talk about something, even
(43:30):
if it's benign.
Morgan (43:33):
Yeah, I have had talks with, I'm thinking of one of my
kids in particular, and there'sbeen, like, a noticing of how
much time this one is spendingon a certain app. And I just
opened up the floor for aconversation about it. Yeah,
hey, I've noticed what's goingon here, because what you're
(43:54):
supposed to be doing is thismuch time, and somehow you're
getting this much time. Andsometimes it was a genuine No,
no, I haven't. And then look atthe number of hours spent, and
it's like, Oh, wow. So it waseven a surprise to that kid. You
know, I
Chris (44:10):
love that, because it illustrates that point of having
a discussion, making anobservation, but you're not at
the Super intrusive level, yeah,of like, monitoring every word
that the kid says to this personand that person, yeah.
Morgan (44:25):
And I think, to your point, the underlying thing that
we're striving for as parents isbeing connected, being
connected, being connected,being connected. And so how do
you foster that connection? Andthat could look different
between any parent and any onekid, right, right? But think
bottom line is not coming atthem guns blazing when you think
(44:49):
something's up, respecting thatthey are an individual with
feelings, you know, and beingable to be present with them and
whatever is going on with them,right? Right? Instead of jumping
to problem solving or criticism,yeah, you know, which can be
really tough as a parent,because a lot of times we do
know better, like we do knowwhat you could do to make it
(45:11):
better in this situation, right?
But they're supposed to belearning for themselves a little
bit here, right?
Chris (45:17):
There's this balance between kind of healthy modeling
and discussion about what'sgoing on in that online, digital
world, as well as just comingback to the basics of the
physical world. And I love thestory that came up around
everybody wrestling and beingchaotic, like when we got back
from the New Mexico trip. Youknow, that's just people being
(45:39):
people, and there's aphysicality and a connection, a
physical connection that comeswith that that's just important.
Yeah. I can't always explainwhy, but I can feel it like it's
just healthy to connect in thatway.
Morgan (45:53):
And it is, yeah. It is a connector, yeah. And it's a
particular connector for forboys like that kind of
physicality, yes. So as much asit drives me fucking crazy that
right before we go to bed, thathappens, I'm trying to tell
myself, this is what they need.
This is what they need.
Chris (46:10):
To your credit, I don't remember you really getting, you
know, outwardly frustrated bythat beyond the No, I
Morgan (46:17):
do it inwardly, well,
Chris (46:20):
yeah, but it wasn't. It wasn't in a serious way. It was
like, oh my god, you guys are,you know, but we just kind of
ignore that, because that's partof the Yeah, well.
Morgan (46:30):
And I also, before we close here, I want to talk about
the importance of teaching ourkids to be able to process their
emotions. Yeah, particularlyboys, because I think
historically, you know, the onlyacceptable emotion for boys has
been anger, which really doesn'tlead to good places most of the
time. That's shifting. You know,that started to shift. But I
(46:51):
think we could always do more.
And again, I think if we are notable to be in our own emotions
and process our own feelings,whatever those are. And by the
way, there's like a billion it'snot just like happy, sad, angry,
understanding ourselves andgiving ourselves space to
process our own feelings is justas important for our kids, you
(47:13):
know, because once they're ableto do that for themselves,
rather than trying to escapethem like we're a lot better
off. It's important
Chris (47:22):
for all of us to do that.
If I can't do that as an adultand an individual, it will be
very hard for me to model thatas a parent andor mentor, right?
Morgan (47:33):
Like when you think about the show, the adolescent
show, and you think of the dad Ifelt for him, so I know, and the
sadness, the sadness that wasthere that turned into
aggression, like that's aclassic example. That's
something that Jamie, his son,witnessed regularly. And men
(47:53):
feel all the emotions just likewomen do. So if he had, you
know, if only he had been ableto better regulate his emotions
and understand himself and bewith them, his behavior would
have come out a whole differentway, and that would have modeled
something completely differentfor Jamie, you know. So that's
(48:13):
that's what we're doing asparents like that's what we need
to work on. And all of us too. Ido too, you know, I'm not the
most outwardly emotional person,but it's important that our kids
see that right? So that's mylittle soapbox on that. What are
you taking away from thisconversation today? What are
your micronutrients
Chris (48:31):
that making space for connection is really important,
making space to just physicallyconnect, separate from the
digital world and making spaceto have conversations about
what's going on in the digitalworld and really bring that
aspect, like more to life in theday to day, because that is a
(48:52):
part of their world. It's a partof all of our worlds. It's just
the way it's a part of theirworld is different than the way
it's a part of my world. And Ithink that maybe for at least a
while, while technology israpidly moving like it is, we're
gonna see these stratificationswhere, for one generation it's
(49:13):
this, for another generationit's that, and then the next one
is this. So just having someacknowledgement that it is
different for everybody, andthat's an opportunity to be
curious about what it's like forsomebody else. Yeah, and to talk
about that. And the other thingthat was so big is the idea of
compassion and empathy. And backto the idea of understanding and
(49:37):
modeling how to manage emotions,feel emotions, express emotions,
identify, emotions that is allembedded in compassion, yeah,
and without the ability to havethat understanding of all of
those feelings in thosedifferent contexts, showing up
for someone and putting yourselfin their shoes, trying to
(49:59):
understand. And and be curiousabout their experience, like you
can't do it.
Morgan (50:03):
Yeah, you're talking about Brene Brown's book, Atlas
of the heart, essentially, whichis a fantastic Yes, book that
tells you about all of thesedifferent emotions and feelings
we typically think of, like thefew, the three or four that but
there's this whole range, andthe more we can put language to
that and communicate that andunderstand it ourselves,
(50:27):
infinitely better it gets interms of us being able to
understand other people andempathize with their situation.
And that is something that oncewe learn better as adults, we
can model that more for our kidsand so on and so forth, right? I
love that. For me, I think Idon't ever want to make
assumptions. I've learned toomuch that even though I've had
(50:50):
some really open and honestconversations preemptively with
my pre teens, I don't ever wantto assume that I know what's
going on in their lives. I needto ask, and I need to be really
involved in their lives inwhatever ways I can. That might
mean I'm really have a deepunderstanding of who their
(51:10):
friends are. Who are theyrunning around? Who are their
friends parents? You know, who?
Who are these people that aresuch an important part of their
lives because they are, they arethe most important part of their
lives in this stage of life,their peers, right? So me having
an idea of who those people areis incredibly important, and so
that that feeds into what Iwanted to say next, which is
just staying connected, justlike you said, having that space
(51:32):
for connection, and that mightmean taking away their devices
for a period of time so thatthey can have have a break. And
that's how I want to frame it tothem. It's not like, Oh, you're
punished, or oh, I don't trustyou. It's Hey, relax and take a
break.
Chris (51:48):
And when you say it in such a way of like, taking away
the device, sometimes it mightlook like that. But there's also
ways to frame activities thatjust don't involve devices,
absolutely
Morgan (51:59):
right? And then finally, really practicing what I preach.
You know, when I'm telling them,you've got to have empathy for
people, and you've got to dothis, and I've got to do all of
that, I have to do that. Andthat's not always easy, and
that's still a work in progresson my part.
Chris (52:14):
Yeah, I love that. That's exactly where I was going with
the road rage thing. I mean,what an opportunity. The next
time that happens and there's achild in the car, that's an
opportunity, that's anopportunity to say out loud,
what's going on with that persontoday? I wonder they I wonder if
they're having a hard day. Yeah,be curious. Vocalize it. Just
(52:35):
see what
Morgan (52:36):
that does over time. All right, well, basically, we have
a lot of questions and no clue.
Well, we said zero clue, likezero clue. I mean, I ultimately,
I wish we, I wish we had answersfor this kind of thing. But, you
know, we're right there witheverybody else trying to figure
it out, and I don't know thatanybody has the answer. This is
new stuff. We just got to keepshowing up and doing the best
(52:59):
that we can. Yeah, well,
Chris (53:01):
thanks for hanging out with us today. Yeah,
Morgan (53:05):
and we will see you next time in the mud. In the mud.
Welcome back to the mud, the mud. What's going on in your
(00:03):
mud?
Chris (00:04):
Well, I am steadily climbing through April, which
the weather here sucks. Probablyit's not as bad as the weather
where you are.
Morgan (00:15):
No, there's lots of actual, literal mud and flood
water where I am right now,there's literal
Chris (00:20):
mutt flood water. Yeah?
Here it's just rain anddepression, which is better than
what you have by
Morgan (00:26):
the way, I found out it was an EF three tornado that
went through like, 20 minutesfrom my house. That's a pretty
strong tornado. I love
Chris (00:33):
the story where you're like, Yeah. Mom went to take her
car to the shop the next day,and one of the walls was gone,
so she went home.
Morgan (00:42):
She didn't even know, like, she's like, I didn't hear
any sirens. I'm like, oh my god,Mom, get to the basement in
Chris (00:49):
some like, indirect way.
I'm kind of proud of her forbeing that disconnected. But
true,
Morgan (00:55):
probably a year ago they would have been glued, glued.
Yeah. What else is new?
Anything? Well, I
Chris (00:59):
feel like it's owed at least an acknowledgement,
because we have talked about himseveral times in different
episodes the passing of ValKilmer.
Morgan (01:08):
I know so sad, so sad.
Not that I was like followinghim a lot later in his in his
life, but I did watch thatdocumentary about him a couple
years ago, and wow, just man, hereally had it rough. The last 10
years of his life, he did
Chris (01:24):
and even in his earlier life, in more of an emotional
way, he had a lot of challengesthat he went through. Yeah,
Morgan (01:31):
so he will be missed, and I've seen a lot of the
tributes and that kind of stuff.
It's been fun to watch that, andactually more recent interviews
that I had not seen, which Ifound fascinating. It was neat
to see how self aware he hadbecome, yeah, you know, because
I know some people say he wasn'tsuper fun to work with when he
was younger. He says it himself,he was very egotistical, and he
thought he knew everything, andhe really made that work. And
(01:54):
his role as Iceman well and realgenius. Like, he really and real
genius, yeah, like, how muchacting was there, and how much
No, he was good. He was reallygood. And the doors, like all
the singing, the singing that hedid, I forgot about the door,
and even the singers or the bandmembers couldn't distinguish his
voice versus Jim. Jim Morrison,right? That's impressive.
(02:17):
Anyway, spring break justwrapped up, and our state just
passed a new law that kids atthe age of 15 can now get their
driving permit. And so I have anappointment in a couple weeks
for for my 15 year old to go gethis permit, which, you know, is
really exciting for him and alittle bit nerve wracking for
(02:38):
for us. But I was
Chris (02:42):
gonna say, Did you extend your meditation time each day,
you
Morgan (02:46):
know? But I have mixed feelings about it. I think it's
actually really it can be reallygood. Yeah, it's gonna give them
the opportunity to practice morein earlier on, because they
still can't get their licenseuntil they're 16. But right?
It's a reminder, a reminder ofof where I am in the parenting
journey, and it's a scary place.
Yes, 15. We've established 15 asthe shittiest age of all time.
(03:08):
It's bad.
Chris (03:11):
I did have one other thing that's quasi inspired by
what we're going to talk abouttoday, which you'll introduce in
a minute. But it is basketball,of course, is coming to a close,
and the women had their finalgame yesterday, and UConn, which
is in the northeast, obviously,won for their 12th time, I
(03:34):
think. And the thing that I likeabout this story is not the
sheer number of times have wonthat coach has been doing this
for 40 years, and I just therewas a moment at the end of the
game where one of the starplayers, Paige Beckers, comes
up, and she's a very tough kindof kid, and so this is not like
(03:56):
typical for her personality. Shecomes off the court, embraces
the coach and just startssobbing, and the coach returns
that. And I thought, you know, Ilove that, yeah, I love that
display of emotion publicly, andwhat it suggests that he was to
her and what she was to him. AndI just thought it was so cool,
Morgan (04:18):
yeah, yeah. I would love to see more of that? Yes. Okay,
well, what are we getting into?
What are we getting into today?
God, we wanted to talk moreabout just raising teens in
general in today's age. I don'tknow how many of you have
watched the show adolescents onNetflix, but that's sort of
where this conversation stemsfrom. And so if you have not
(04:41):
watched it, that's okay. Youdon't necessarily have to just
know that there may be somespoilers, but I would actually
recommend that you do watch it,whether you've got kids or not.
I think there's, there's a lotof important themes in it that
are just relevant for anybodywho's living in today's world.
So, you know, first off, we wantto talk a little. Bit about how
much has changed in parentingteenagers today versus when we
(05:07):
were teenagers, like 30 yearsago, right? It's, it's a lot
different than it was for ourparents, for better or for
worse, really?
Chris (05:14):
Yeah, well, the world has changed so much, tons, you know.
And I was trying to think ofways to just in a concrete
format highlight some of that.
But if we just look attechnology over the course of
the last 45 years or so, I mean,holy shit, we are living in a
totally different world. And Igot curious about it, and I went
(05:36):
back and and just for fun,created a little outline. There
was some testing of what we nowknow as the modern internet in
the 70s, but the acceptedbirthday of the modern internet,
even before we knew about dialup. 1983 was kind of when the
internet was born. That wasn'treally being used by anybody.
(05:56):
Yeah, widespread. It wasn't apublic thing, right? But
remember that little company?
AOL, oh yeah, you've got mail. Ihave a Pavlovian
Morgan (06:07):
response to that. I mean, that just makes me want to
go, Ooh, I gotta check it, you
Chris (06:11):
know? I know. So that was what year? Oh, geez, 1993 93 so
93 AOL, started assigningemails. So emails were starting
to get publicly used. Imaginethat. And then 95 AOL reached 1
million users, which is likenothing. Well, it reminds me of
(06:34):
Austin Powers when he's like $1million yeah. I mean nowadays
and influencers has, has like 50million followers, yeah. And
then flash forward to socialmedia, remember MySpace? Oh
Unknown (06:49):
yeah, oh yeah, I do 2003
Chris (06:53):
quickly followed by Facebook in 2004 Yeah? So that
was really the flash point forsocial media, as we know, and
then the first iPhone was 2007
Morgan (07:07):
I was pregnant with our first child. I mean,
Chris (07:10):
hold up for a second. We are less than 20 years in, yeah.
Morgan (07:14):
And that's the thing.
It's it's been exponentiallyfaster, right? And now here we
are with AI, right? And who thehell knows what's going to
happen with that and what theimplications are there? Well,
Chris (07:25):
AI is a funny thing, because it's already so
pervasive in our world. And Ithink some of us are well
informed on that, but many of usdon't even realize the extent at
which it's used. AI is beingused today, not tomorrow, and
has been and has, yeah, agreed.
So that's a quick little walkdown technology lane. Certainly,
things are a lot different nowthan they were in 1983
Morgan (07:51):
a shit ton different, right? Yeah. Things are
different than the King's Questdays the Oregon Trail.
Chris (07:58):
We used to, we used to call dad in the middle of work
to get like the prompt code, theDOS language to type in to get
onto King's question.
Unknown (08:09):
Such a fun game.
Chris (08:12):
And then he had that template that he would lay out
across his keyboard so that hecould use the word processor.
Remember, that was literallylike a cardboard fold out, yeah,
Morgan (08:24):
oh, God. So we've come a long, long way. Um, yeah, I'm
not sure exactly where we are,but we've come a long way from
where we were. And, you know,there have been a lot of of
other things, aside fromtechnology, that have, that have
evolved and changed in the last30 years. You know, we have a
lot more LGBTQ rights. Theconcept of gender roles has
(08:48):
really loosened a lot. You know,it's not like women are staying
home and being the homemaker andmen are the breadwinners. That's
shifted even more in the last 30years.
Chris (08:57):
And it's interesting, that's a good one to bring up.
And it strikes home for me,because we grew up in a time
when that was really beginning.
Yeah, you know, we were thefirst generation where,
pervasively, men and women wereboth starting to work. Yes, and
that whole term, rememberlatchkey kid? Oh, that's so that
was us. That was us. Yeah. Imean, no, Nana was there. That's
(09:20):
true.
Morgan (09:23):
She was, but I think that was we were starting to see
that, like mom was working tons,dad was working tons. The
difference was that mom was alsostill doing most of the home
making, I know, and workingtons, which wasn't fair, which
wasn't fair, right? And so nowthat's shifted even more to
where men are. Men are doing thelaundry and the cooking. Men are
(09:45):
staying home with the kids. Menare it's it's all blurred more,
right there. There's not thesedistinct roles anymore, which
is, is a big change even, eventhe concept of gender identity,
you know, and fluidity hasshown. Shifted over time, which
that's a whole topic in and ofitself. We've had the metoo
movement. People are believingwomen more when it comes to that
(10:08):
kind of thing. Yeah, there's avery much. And I think we saw a
really big boom with COVID andthe pandemic. This increased
awareness of mental health andthe importance of mental health.
So some of these things aregreat that have changed, but the
bottom line is that a shit tonhas changed since we were
(10:29):
teenagers, right? And so we asparents are navigating what feel
like Uncharted Waters. You know?
I mean, first of all, we'venever parented before, right? So
that's it's Uncharted in thatway. But it's also like, we
don't have the luxury of goingto our parents and being like,
Hey, what did you do aboutsocial media with your kids or
with us? It wasn't even aconcept back then. So, right?
(10:49):
Big change. So
Chris (10:53):
how does all that really tie back to the adolescent show?
Morgan (10:57):
Yeah, let's just take a sec to talk about that show. Who
I think I came to you and said,Hey, I don't even know what to
say, but I feel like you got towatch this,
Chris (11:08):
right? And I was like, oh, you know, okay, and, but no,
Morgan (11:12):
no, no, this is not like a sit down and relax kind of
show,
Chris (11:16):
right? I watched it, and I think I texted you something
to the effect of fuck. There's alot there. I don't even know
what to do with that, yeah,because it's just such an
intense show, and the way thatthey frame it is so intense,
yeah, you know. And it reallymakes an impact. Yeah?
Morgan (11:35):
The fact that they shoot it all in one each episode is
one shot, yeah, really makes youfeel like you cannot come up for
air. And
Chris (11:44):
even the way that they'll, like, pick someone that
comes into the room, and thenthey'll follow that person out
of the room, and now you're inthat person's reality. Yeah,
it's very well done in that wayand impactful, I'll tell you.
The number one thing that I tookaway was just a tremendous
amount of empathy. And dependingon what episode and what the
(12:05):
focus was of that episode, Ifelt empathy for every single
one of the main characters, not
Morgan (12:12):
to take away from the fact that the crime itself. No,
the girl being murdered waswrong. She was absolutely the
primary victim, absolutely, butoh my god, everybody in this
show was a victim in some way,in a way. Yeah, right. You can't
watch it and not be affected bythat. Yes,
Chris (12:32):
the other thing that really struck me is this kind of
polarizing difference in therealities of the adults and the
reality of the teenagers twodifferent worlds, it just really
struck me, like, whoa, twodifferent worlds that lacked a
really good connecting point. Sothere was just so much, like,
(12:54):
lost in translation, yeah. Andthere was a lot of tragedy in
that, going back to the empathy,because I could see, like, Oh,
if only this had happened, or ifthey had known this, like they
could have stepped in, it couldhave ended differently and and
they
Morgan (13:09):
probably would have Right, right. Like, these
parents are not deadbeat parentswho don't give a shit about
their kid. And you know, theseare parents who are flawed, like
all of us are. They have theirown crap, you know, that they're
their own histories that they'rebringing into their parenting,
but they love their kids. Andeven still, this tragedy
(13:29):
happens, you know, and so itdoes make you look at yourself
and go, Well, shit, what do Ineed to do? What can I do? What
am I doing, you know? Or what doI need to do that I have not
been doing? And another
Chris (13:40):
pause point, and this really speaks more to the
structure of the show that Ithought was really I like the
way that it was done, was thearresting police officer had a
son that was a peer of all ofthese kids that went to school
together, and so he wasn't freeof this either, like he didn't.
There were a lot of things thatwere lost in his world as well,
(14:03):
that his kid was going throughhe didn't understand it, just
like the aggressors parents werein the dark too well.
Morgan (14:10):
And I think I don't know that that's necessarily super
unique in that I think as asteenagers, I remember feeling
like I've got this whole lifethat mom and dad, like, aren't
privy to right? Because we just,you know, we don't talk about
that stuff. And I'm, I'm, like,growing up, I've got my own
identity, you know, I knew thatmom and dad were there if I
(14:30):
needed them. But aside fromthat, it was like, I've got my
life. And I don't think thatthat's unique to adolescents. I
just think that now, the extentto which that is happening, and
the reach of our communitiesbecause of online life is so
drastically different than itused to be, which just amplifies
(14:52):
that. Yeah,
Chris (14:52):
so the way I think about that is you take a really hard
time of life, which is coming ofage, right? And identifying
yourself as a unique person,separating from your family
model, right,
Morgan (15:05):
which is what you're supposed to be doing in that
time frame, right? And then you
Chris (15:09):
add on to it, this other layer of stuff, this whole world
that is kind of a little bitoutside of the physical world,
and it's less seen, and it'sless talked about, and it's more
private. It's very challenging,yeah, and
Morgan (15:26):
back to social media and online presence. I feel like
that emboldens people to behavein ways that they may not in
person. And it just, it justfans the flames, right? You
know, yeah, my response to theshow, I couldn't help but be
viewing it from a parentalperspective. I mean, I think
there's a whole lot there, butmostly I was viewing it through
(15:49):
the lens of a parent, like, if Iwere those parents, you know,
I've got three teenage boysright now, and so I kept putting
myself in the shoes of Jamie'sparents, and it just made me
feel this combination of realsadness for him and sort of that
reminding, unsettling feelingthat I am not in control yet
(16:13):
again. You know, as a parent,there's only so much you can do,
and we'll talk a little bit moreabout like, what can we do? But
it feels like, God, they'retheir own people, and they're
gonna make their own decisions.
You know, I actually reached outto some people on Facebook about
this, like people that havewatched the show, and what did
they think? And sort of theresponse was, man, I really feel
sorry for these kids, you know,like there is so much extra
(16:36):
noise that we did not have todeal with when we were kids. And
as parents, we are cluelessabout what's out there. We don't
know. Yeah, and again, back tothat idea that we ultimately are
not in control, even when we doknow these things, even when we
are educated, we still have tolet go and let them do what
(16:59):
they're going to do. So therewas a lot of instant like, Okay,
I want to know, I want to knowhow I can do the best I can as a
parent. So I think that's reallyprimarily where this episode
stems from. And
Chris (17:13):
maybe there's two themes there around parenting, at least
in today's world, how do we keepthem safe, and how do we stay
connected? Yeah, and honestly, Ireally get stuck with these. I
do too. I don't have any magicformula. I can tell you that I
worry about these. Yeah, everyday, every single day.
Morgan (17:34):
I think these are the bottom line questions that I
have, because I feel like, if Ican do those two things, I can I
can let go, and they can do whatthey are going to do, right? But
those are two things that arethey're not always easy to do,
especially with teenagers. Soyeah, that's the primary theme
of what we're going to talkabout today, also woven into
those which we won't spend a lotof time on, but kind of the idea
(17:58):
of generational trauma. You cansee it in the show, in the way
that Jamie's dad talks about hisown dad and that whole situation
and how then it's passed down toJamie. And I think there's
plenty to be said about theeffect of generational trauma,
unless we deal with our stuff asa family and personally,
(18:20):
individually, that stuff isgoing to trickle straight on
down, right? So that'simportant. There's also this
concept of what they call themanosphere, which really fosters
toxic masculinity as a responseto ultra feminism. So we talked
about how, you know, things haveshifted more the metoo movement,
(18:41):
and women are like, big andstrong, and this is great, and
I'm all about this, by the way,but there are some groups of men
that feel threatened at the sametime, and they've gone down this
rabbit hole called themanosphere, where they're really
teaching all this rhetoric Aboutaggression towards women to sort
of regain quote power, and thatwas at play for sure in this
(19:05):
show. But let's talk more aboutwhat the unique struggles are in
parenting teenagers today. We'vealready said adolescence is
just, it's a it's not the mostfun time. I mean, I remember my
adolescence. I don't know thatthere's any adolescent that
loves adolescents, you're tryingto figure out who you are, yeah,
you're trying to break away andestablish independence, and it's
(19:27):
like a push pull all the timewith your parents, right?
Chris (19:31):
I mean, even even to the degree of like, taking more time
in the bathroom and not beingtold, like, when it's time to
eat, or when it's time to getup, or there's this ironically
natural desire in this period oftime to start trying to control
the circumstance more, in aneffort to emerge as a unique
(19:54):
person. And you know, we'redoing this in this complex
backdrop of. Of having this,this double life. There's the
physical life people in thehouse that I live in, right?
Morgan (20:06):
You mean the real one, the actual real life, yeah,
Chris (20:10):
the one that I can like, touch physically. And then
there's the digital life. Andhonestly, I feel like an infant
in that I don't reallyunderstand what it is to have a
digital life in the way that mykids do, yeah. And as such, I
feel completely unequipped,yeah, to manage the complexities
(20:34):
of that like I don't evenunderstand it. I
Morgan (20:36):
wouldn't even know where to look for some of this stuff.
No,
Chris (20:40):
I don't. And so going back to the show for a minute,
it it's one of the points that Ijust had such deep empathy for
the parents, because mytakeaway, or kind of assessment
of the situation, is that beforethe murder basically happened,
the parents had some clues, notthat that was going to happen to
that extreme, but that maybethings weren't right, and they
(21:02):
were just telling themselves,Well, I don't know, maybe it'll
be okay, and then it clearlywasn't okay. Yeah, and I think
that's everybody's worst fear asa parent, is certainly mine, is
that something horrible is goingto happen and I didn't take
action when I could have andyeah, how do I even know, and
because I do want them to beindividuals, I don't want to
(21:24):
like be over controlling, right?
Morgan (21:26):
But it is. It's one of those things where
retrospectively, you can lookback and be like, Oh yeah, those
are red flags. But in themoment, would I have noticed the
flags I don't know, right? Ithink it's difficult, because at
least for me, I really want togive my kids enough rope to
explore and figure out theboundaries of who they are for
(21:50):
themselves, but they still gotto be attached to the rope. What
I mean? I'm not going to justlike, cut them loose, because
they're not adults yet, and soit's a tricky line to walk. I
think there are times when Iwish I had never gotten phones
for my kids, at least not thatthe not at the ages that they
were. I think there are choicesthat we can make as parents, and
(22:12):
again, they're very individualchoices. Right? You do what you
feel is right for you and yourfamily. God, it
Chris (22:18):
is such a slippery slope, though. Yes, because yes, I can
call all the time, and I can bein touch, and I can put on, I
know, you know, the locationtracking and all of that stuff.
But then, you know, is that overcontrolling? First of all, yeah.
And then second of all, you're,you're giving them access to all
of these other things, of whichit's hard to support it
Morgan (22:41):
is well, and maybe you're not giving them, you
know, maybe you have it lockeddown to a certain degree. Oh,
yeah, that's
Chris (22:47):
worked real well for you.
That's, that's how we
Morgan (22:49):
started out, exactly, you know, they they wear you
down. Or you can get this oneapp that, by the way, didn't
even realize does XYZ. And bythe way, once they've downloaded
it, you can't take it away. Youcan, you can delete it, but then
if you ever give them the appstore back, they can re download
it without permission, becausethey've downloaded it in the
(23:10):
past. So it does, it gets reallyslippery, and then then it
becomes like, Okay, do Iphysically take away the device
for a period of time? Or, or,you know, I've even toyed with
the idea of, like, maybe I justgive them a watch, they just
have the watch, and so I canstill see where they are, and
they can still call me and talkto their friends, but like,
(23:31):
there's no social media on thewalk watch. There's no, I don't
think there's any perfectsolution. You know, even the
people that are not gettingphones for their kids, there's
issues with that too. There's,you're going to run into some,
some problems with that too. Soit's really just like, pick,
pick your poison. Well,
Chris (23:46):
and I look at it this way, the reality is, I mean, we
just talked about it. Technologyis here and it's going to be
here, and it's not going to behere like it is now. It's going
to be even more prevalent. It'sstill rapidly evolving. And so
to not give them a phone and notbe working with how to manage
(24:09):
this effectively, is and then
Morgan (24:10):
all of the sudden, when they turn 16 or 18, then you,
then you give them the phone.
Chris (24:16):
I know it's a real conundrum of which I profess to
have zero clue, no answers,yeah, but I have a lot of
questions. And quite frankly,depending on the day, anxiety
about it, I do too.
Morgan (24:31):
And there's also the fact that schools are utilizing
phones more in the education,right,
Chris (24:38):
which, on one hand, is quite appropriate, because when
you get in the workplace, right?
Guess what? Technology ispervasively used, right? But
Morgan (24:47):
so it again, it just feels like we were talking
earlier about this, thisgravitational pull, like we
don't even have a a choice.
We're all being pulled with thistechnology. A tractor evolution,
exactly. And so as parents, Ifeel like I'm I'm constantly
sort of playing tug of war. I'mdigging my heels in to just slow
(25:08):
it down a little bit or dosomething so that it's not so
prevalent in my kids lives. I'mnot really succeeding, by the
way, but that's what I'm tryingto do. And I want to talk a
little bit more about becausethis show is centered around
this boy, right, who commitsthis crime. And that hits home
(25:29):
for me with my boys being theages that they are. And it
really got me thinking about,what is it to be a man. You
know, how do boys in this dayand age? What are they looking
to? What are they influenced by?
And what does it really mean tobe a man? So
Chris (25:52):
I'm just gonna ask another question, not really. I
don't have an answer. It's notChair.
Unknown (25:59):
I wanted the answers to the universe. You know,
Chris (26:02):
as a man, this seems so critical to me, and it's
something that I am stillworking on as a man, and that is
how to show compassion anddemonstrate empathy as a man,
which
Morgan (26:16):
I want to say, I feel like there has been a trend over
the course of the last 30 years.
I mean, just like I said, genderroles have started to kind of
dissolve a little bit. You know,there's a trend towards men
being able it being moreacceptable, I'll say for men to
show up in that way.
Chris (26:36):
Right? Yes, this conversation gets really complex
with gender roles and fluidity.
What I'm talking about is, youknow, my identification is as a
man, so as a man, that includes,you know, some masculine roles.
But how do I show compassion andempathy within that construct of
(26:56):
identifying as a man? Yeah. Andthat may not be everybody's
question, right, depending onwhat gender you identify with,
but that's one that I certainlyconnect with. And when I see
other boys that are identifyingas boys slash men, my challenge
to myself is, how am I modelingthat, and how am I demonstrating
(27:19):
it. And that's part of why Ibrought out the UConn women's
coach, because that was a publicdisplay of a guy, you know,
really showing some compassionfor someone in an emotional way,
in a very public setting. Yeah,
Morgan (27:36):
that actually makes me think about the book raising
boys. Yeah, he talks about howin the course of a boy's life,
ages like one to six is wherethe mom is incredibly important,
and then between like six and 14is when dad is then layered in,
you know, as a really importantfigure. And that's when they're
(27:58):
starting to look to their dad aswhat it what it is to be a man,
what a man does, how he behavesin the world. And then from 14
on, you're looking at mentors,male mentors, yeah, become
really important. And youtalking about that coach, even
though I know it's totallydifferent situation with, you
(28:20):
know, a college female team, butthat is, I feel like that's part
of where boys are looking, youknow. So my boys are in that
time frame now where thoseoutside men are influencing and
So who are those? Are theycoaches? Are they, or are they
some randos online? You knowwhat I mean? I mean, so
Chris (28:38):
I have this really cool visual memory that comes to mind
with your oldest, two boys. AndI was visiting from out of town
on one of my work trip thingsback when I was traveling a ton
for work. And it's funny howthis moment becomes more
powerful now than maybe it wasin the moment. But I got up at
(29:01):
like, five in the morning. Oh,yeah. And we, we had said, like,
I'm gonna get up at five in themorning, but it wasn't announced
multiple times or anything likethat,
Morgan (29:10):
because you had a really early flight or something super
early. Yeah. So, and forreference, how old were they?
They were, what, 11
Chris (29:16):
and nine, nine and seven, yeah, something like that. They
were not too cool for us yet,no, but I went up to the kitchen
to get the ironing board to ironmy shirt because I had to go to
meetings all day and be dressedup, and I'm in the kitchen, and
the two boys come down in theirpajamas and just sat on the
floor and talked to me at fivein the morning. And they did
(29:39):
that on their own. Yeah, theyjust wanted to watch me iron my
shirt, and they were invested init. They were asking questions
about ironing shirts. And, yeah,amazing. And
Morgan (29:49):
you are, you are one of those mentors for them, 1,000%
Chris (29:53):
you know, right? And there's a great honor in that.
But also there's kind of this,like, Whoa, boy, I've been. I'm
I better tighten it up here,yeah,
Morgan (30:08):
but, but it's true. It really, it really speaks to the
whole it takes a village, yeah,to raise kids, you know? And it
is true for girls too. Therewere, I'm really just honing in
on boys because of this show,and because the teenagers that I
currently have are boys, and soI can only speak to that
experience right now, yes, but Iam. I'm constantly thinking
like, Okay, I know they'relooking at their dad. I know
(30:31):
that they're looking at you. Iknow they're definitely
influenced by by whatever'sgoing on online, and so being
diligent about taking a peekinto that world. You know what
that looks like? Who they'retalking to, by the way, I hate
Snapchat. I hate it, I hate it,I hate it, I hate it.
Chris (30:51):
So there, there's a really interesting challenge for
me to understand, right? Becauseon one hand, the norm seems to
be. And again, I'm an idiot whenit comes to this stuff, so I may
not be understanding itcorrectly, but we're taking
pictures of it's common to postlike, where you are, like, what,
(31:11):
what you look like. You know,there's this certain facial
expression that seems common.
There's like, this languagearound it, right? But in doing
that, you're not actually in thephysical moment that you're in.
You're in the digital momenttaking a picture of your
physical moment. So where areyou, like, what moment are you
(31:31):
actually, right? Well, it's adouble life thing, like you
said, right? Maybe I just needtutoring about it. I don't Well,
I feel
Morgan (31:40):
like I know a little bit, and I still feel clueless,
right? You know, right? I mean,and I think too, with being
online and having so much of adigital presence, not being in
the life that you're actuallyin, I think there's also this,
like, we're depleted of empathy,right? When we're not able to
(32:00):
actually be in real life asmuch. And so the adolescents
show really highlighted. Okay.
How do we teach our kids empathyin today's world? Can we just
break down empathy a little bit?
Yeah, like, what is empathy?
Yeah, what is it? So I think ofit as being able to put yourself
in someone else's shoes. Yeah,right.
Chris (32:22):
I definitely agree with that. And I mentioned the word
compassion, yeah, a little bitearlier. And to me, that's the
understanding of the fullspectrum of life, right? It's
the understanding and acceptancethat life is full of struggles,
but it's also full of joy and itcan be full of sadness, like
it's the whole range foreverybody, right? And so having
(32:46):
compassion is super paramount tobeing able to have empathy,
because to be able to putyourself in someone's shoes, you
have to accept and understand,like that range of emotion,
yeah,
Morgan (32:58):
and then you're able to extend compassion. So back to
that question, like, how do weteach that to to our kids? And
you know, I would say for sure,modeling that in the way that we
interact with our kids, andalso, you know, other
relationships that our kids areseeing. And I think there's
something really important aboutbeing present with whatever is
(33:22):
showing up. Like, that's whatmodeling empathy is. And so I
keep thinking of like mydaughter came up to me the other
day and, you know, she wanted totell me something, or she said
something about how school hadgone well that day. And I said,
Well, you know why? What's up?
She said, Nothing, it's it'snothing. And I kind of, well,
no, like, what is theresomething you want to talk
(33:42):
about? I'm here if you need me,whatever, right? And she said,
No, you'll just think it'sstupid. And so that was like a
clue to me that there haveprobably been times at her age
Now, granted, she'll come to mewith things like, oh, so and so,
stole my slime, and now we'renot best friends anymore, you
know, which can seem reallytrivial to me as an adult,
(34:04):
because I'm like, Why does slimematter? And you're not going to
remember this girl 10 years fromnow. Anyway, it's okay. Friends
come and go, or you'll be bestfriends again tomorrow. Like,
that's how fast these thingsturn around, right? And it made
me realize, like, I could dobetter at being empathetic right
now, like early on, and thatwill pave the way, first of all,
(34:26):
for us to be more connectedlater, when it gets to be more
challenging, when she's ateenager. And also it models
that empathy. It models that forthem, so that they can do that
for other people. Your
Chris (34:40):
example just points out how easy it is to innocently
miss an opportunity to showempathy. Another thing that I
thought about when I wasthinking about modeling empathy
and compassion is another like,it's getting more and more
common the road rage like, howmany times. Either have I been
(35:02):
like, honked at and basically,like, verbally assaulted. I
usually don't honk, butoccasionally I will on the other
side, but like, that's notmodeling empathy and compassion,
right? And it it is acommonplace thing happening in
our society. I'm not blaminganybody for any road rage, but
what I'm saying is that is acommonly accepted practice. It
(35:25):
happens all the time,
Morgan (35:26):
right? And that's with someone that you don't even
know, and so it's really easy tojust write them off as well.
They're a shithead, right? Butyou're right even just saying
out loud, well, maybe they werein a really big hurry and they
didn't see me, or just givingthe generous assumption is
practicing that empathy,
Chris (35:43):
even with myself, aside from anybody else being in the
car, I have created this littlechallenge and game for myself to
take a moment and say, I wonderwhat is going on for that person
today, like right now? Yeah,
Morgan (35:57):
getting curious, right?
I think there is very much anelement of curiosity to being
empathetic, yes, because youcan't ultimately know
Chris (36:06):
well, and again, the idea of being present in someone
else's experience and orfeeling, or like, if you're not
present, you're not curious,right,
Morgan (36:17):
right? And you have to be a little more objective. You
have to be standing back hereinstead of in your own shit. If
you are not able to sit withyour own shit, you know, like
your own feelings and your ownstuff, you're not likely to be
able to sit with someone else'sstuff either, right? Which that
impedes empathy. I think that'sanother piece here of teaching
(36:40):
empathy and being able to modelempathy is that we've got to get
better at knowing what's goingon with us and holding space for
ourselves to experience whateverwe're experiencing. We are so
constantly in our societyescaping we're chasing the shiny
thing to get away from the stuffwe don't want to deal with,
(37:00):
which is like anythinguncomfortable or inconvenient or
all of that.
Chris (37:05):
Yeah, it could be hard to even know how to interpret
what's going on with your ownbody. Like, what does it mean
when you feel a feeling in yourgut like a literal, physical
feeling? What do I do when Ifeel a pressure in my chest?
Take a Tums. No, no, turn onNetflix. God, you're not
listening.
Morgan (37:25):
There's got to be some kind of magic pill to fix that,
something that's all I'm saying.
Yeah. So it is a challenge. I Wealso mentioned last last
episode, the concept of play andhow play can foster empathy. And
I think especially with boys,you have said yourself, and in
this book that I was sayingraising boys, they talk about
this idea of wrestling and likephysically rough housing, which
(37:45):
I can't stand as a mother, it islike, totally against what I
want in my household. Like Iwant everything to be calm and
peaceful, but without fail. AndMatt has been doing it from day
one is hard wired. Yes, he wouldcome home from work in his
scrubs and all and, like, sethis keys down, and instantly
(38:09):
start rolling on the floor withthe boys when they were little.
And even now, like, right beforewe go to bed, sometimes they'll
start picking at each other, andthey all of them, start getting
into this pile of bodies. Andjust like, do
Chris (38:24):
you remember when we came home from New Mexico and we were
all piled into your bedroom forsome reason, and Penny was in
there and the dog, the dog waslike mouthing, like wrestling
with all and barking, and me andthe boys were like wrestling,
and yes, everybody was in there.
Unknown (38:45):
That's exactly like.
That is a typical scene. And Idon't even know why, trust
Morgan (38:50):
me, I don't either, but it is you're compelled to do it.
I don't know. But in this book,he talks about how that's like,
a critical thing for boys inparticular, because they can
start to learn limits andboundaries, what's too much and
what's too little. And to
Chris (39:08):
be fair, and you brought this up before, but I'm sure
women and just people ingeneral, we all have our
different ways of learning thisstuff, learning empathy,
learning physical boundaries andhow to healthily communicate
physically? Yeah. I mean, Ican't tell you how much just in
my own experience as a person,can be communicated in a hug,
(39:33):
the way that someone hugswithout padding, by the way.
Well, the padding is a signal,or not a signal, right? That's
part. That's, like, part of thelanguage of hugging. Yeah, you
know, you can come in, like,just shoulder contact, you could
go full body, the sideways hug,yeah, you know, it's the full,
squeeze, the half, squeeze, thetap on the shoulder, the the no
(39:55):
forearm contact, the fullforearm. I mean, there's so many
ways. That we can physically anddo physically communicate with
each other. But, you know, wehave to learn that we
Morgan (40:07):
do. And I think some of some of that has been taken
away, some of the opportunityfor that has been taken away
naturally by all of this, all ofthese devices and phones. Well,
we're
Chris (40:17):
just not interacting in the same way to some degree like
that. That's just anobservation, but I'll tell you
that when I go into a restaurantnow, what I don't see is,
remember when we were kids, andthey had all the little arcade
games, and we would go in, we'dbe like, Mom, Dad, give us a
court, give us some quarters,and we would be sitting in
(40:37):
there, ironically, playing on ascreen, right, very primitive
screen, but we were interactingand like banging on the buttons
and being aware of each otherand all of this stuff. Yeah,
flash forward 35 years, and nowthere's no quarters. We just
have our own phone. And I couldbe talking to you and playing a
(41:00):
game, but you might be in adifferent state, and it's just
different. It's an interaction.
It's just not the same one.
Yeah,
Morgan (41:07):
so before we kind of wrap up with micronutrients, I
want to talk a little bit moreabout my kids have phones. They
have laptops. You know, theseare things that we gave them
long ago. I'm realistically nottaking them away. But you know,
some things that we dosometimes, or have done in the
past, and I probably am going toimplement again, is giving them
(41:29):
breaks from them, like physicalbreaks from them, meaning taking
them away in the in the eveningtime, at least, so that they
don't feel so compelled to lookat it. It is like a
gravitational pull. I feel itmyself as an adult, if it's near
me, I sometimes want to pick itup and look at it. So yeah, like
setting that boundary, I thinkis helpful. I also am curious
(41:53):
what you think about monitoringwhat it is, who they're talking
to, what they're saying. Youknow how much? Because this is
not something that our parentsdid, you know, like we, we
didn't text anything. There wasno, I guess they could have read
some written, handwritten notes,you know, that we wrote back and
forth, but they didn't have thatoption. And so, is it an
(42:15):
invasion of privacy, or is itbeing safe? You know, how do you
how do you reconcile
Chris (42:22):
that? I feel like that is a pretty personal decision.
Yeah, but what I think is soimportant is that there is
connection around what ishappening or not happening
digitally and and also like inthe physical world, like having
a conversation, having aconnection around that, versus
(42:45):
this, being just a silent like,Oh, we're just all on our
phones, yeah, you know. And forme, like my personal take on
this is it's important to havesome level of understanding, but
I'm also conscious about notwanting to be, like, hyper
controlling, either? And it issuch a fine line, I don't
(43:06):
profess to know how to do it, orwhat the right point is to be,
yeah, with it, I will tell youthat one question I ask all the
time, like, multiple times anhour, sometimes, what are you
doing on that thing? What'sgoing on, like, and I don't do
it in a in a what do you do?
Like, an accusatory it's more ofa, I'm hoping for some little
like crack in the doorway tojust talk about something, even
(43:30):
if it's benign.
Morgan (43:33):
Yeah, I have had talks with, I'm thinking of one of my
kids in particular, and there'sbeen, like, a noticing of how
much time this one is spendingon a certain app. And I just
opened up the floor for aconversation about it. Yeah,
hey, I've noticed what's goingon here, because what you're
(43:54):
supposed to be doing is thismuch time, and somehow you're
getting this much time. Andsometimes it was a genuine No,
no, I haven't. And then look atthe number of hours spent, and
it's like, Oh, wow. So it waseven a surprise to that kid. You
know, I
Chris (44:10):
love that, because it illustrates that point of having
a discussion, making anobservation, but you're not at
the Super intrusive level, yeah,of like, monitoring every word
that the kid says to this personand that person, yeah.
Morgan (44:25):
And I think, to your point, the underlying thing that
we're striving for as parents isbeing connected, being
connected, being connected,being connected. And so how do
you foster that connection? Andthat could look different
between any parent and any onekid, right, right? But think
bottom line is not coming atthem guns blazing when you think
(44:49):
something's up, respecting thatthey are an individual with
feelings, you know, and beingable to be present with them and
whatever is going on with them,right? Right? Instead of jumping
to problem solving or criticism,yeah, you know, which can be
really tough as a parent,because a lot of times we do
know better, like we do knowwhat you could do to make it
(45:11):
better in this situation, right?
But they're supposed to belearning for themselves a little
bit here, right?
Chris (45:17):
There's this balance between kind of healthy modeling
and discussion about what'sgoing on in that online, digital
world, as well as just comingback to the basics of the
physical world. And I love thestory that came up around
everybody wrestling and beingchaotic, like when we got back
from the New Mexico trip. Youknow, that's just people being
(45:39):
people, and there's aphysicality and a connection, a
physical connection that comeswith that that's just important.
Yeah. I can't always explainwhy, but I can feel it like it's
just healthy to connect in thatway.
Morgan (45:53):
And it is, yeah. It is a connector, yeah. And it's a
particular connector for forboys like that kind of
physicality, yes. So as much asit drives me fucking crazy that
right before we go to bed, thathappens, I'm trying to tell
myself, this is what they need.
This is what they need.
Chris (46:10):
To your credit, I don't remember you really getting, you
know, outwardly frustrated bythat beyond the No, I
Morgan (46:17):
do it inwardly, well,
Chris (46:20):
yeah, but it wasn't. It wasn't in a serious way. It was
like, oh my god, you guys are,you know, but we just kind of
ignore that, because that's partof the Yeah, well.
Morgan (46:30):
And I also, before we close here, I want to talk about
the importance of teaching ourkids to be able to process their
emotions. Yeah, particularlyboys, because I think
historically, you know, the onlyacceptable emotion for boys has
been anger, which really doesn'tlead to good places most of the
time. That's shifting. You know,that started to shift. But I
(46:51):
think we could always do more.
And again, I think if we are notable to be in our own emotions
and process our own feelings,whatever those are. And by the
way, there's like a billion it'snot just like happy, sad, angry,
understanding ourselves andgiving ourselves space to
process our own feelings is justas important for our kids, you
(47:13):
know, because once they're ableto do that for themselves,
rather than trying to escapethem like we're a lot better
off. It's important
Chris (47:22):
for all of us to do that.
If I can't do that as an adultand an individual, it will be
very hard for me to model thatas a parent andor mentor, right?
Morgan (47:33):
Like when you think about the show, the adolescent
show, and you think of the dad Ifelt for him, so I know, and the
sadness, the sadness that wasthere that turned into
aggression, like that's aclassic example. That's
something that Jamie, his son,witnessed regularly. And men
(47:53):
feel all the emotions just likewomen do. So if he had, you
know, if only he had been ableto better regulate his emotions
and understand himself and bewith them, his behavior would
have come out a whole differentway, and that would have modeled
something completely differentfor Jamie, you know. So that's
(48:13):
that's what we're doing asparents like that's what we need
to work on. And all of us too. Ido too, you know, I'm not the
most outwardly emotional person,but it's important that our kids
see that right? So that's mylittle soapbox on that. What are
you taking away from thisconversation today? What are
your micronutrients
Chris (48:31):
that making space for connection is really important,
making space to just physicallyconnect, separate from the
digital world and making spaceto have conversations about
what's going on in the digitalworld and really bring that
aspect, like more to life in theday to day, because that is a
(48:52):
part of their world. It's a partof all of our worlds. It's just
the way it's a part of theirworld is different than the way
it's a part of my world. And Ithink that maybe for at least a
while, while technology israpidly moving like it is, we're
gonna see these stratificationswhere, for one generation it's
(49:13):
this, for another generationit's that, and then the next one
is this. So just having someacknowledgement that it is
different for everybody, andthat's an opportunity to be
curious about what it's like forsomebody else. Yeah, and to talk
about that. And the other thingthat was so big is the idea of
compassion and empathy. And backto the idea of understanding and
(49:37):
modeling how to manage emotions,feel emotions, express emotions,
identify, emotions that is allembedded in compassion, yeah,
and without the ability to havethat understanding of all of
those feelings in thosedifferent contexts, showing up
for someone and putting yourselfin their shoes, trying to
(49:59):
understand. And and be curiousabout their experience, like you
can't do it.
Morgan (50:03):
Yeah, you're talking about Brene Brown's book, Atlas
of the heart, essentially, whichis a fantastic Yes, book that
tells you about all of thesedifferent emotions and feelings
we typically think of, like thefew, the three or four that but
there's this whole range, andthe more we can put language to
that and communicate that andunderstand it ourselves,
(50:27):
infinitely better it gets interms of us being able to
understand other people andempathize with their situation.
And that is something that oncewe learn better as adults, we
can model that more for our kidsand so on and so forth, right? I
love that. For me, I think Idon't ever want to make
assumptions. I've learned toomuch that even though I've had
(50:50):
some really open and honestconversations preemptively with
my pre teens, I don't ever wantto assume that I know what's
going on in their lives. I needto ask, and I need to be really
involved in their lives inwhatever ways I can. That might
mean I'm really have a deepunderstanding of who their
(51:10):
friends are. Who are theyrunning around? Who are their
friends parents? You know, who?
Who are these people that aresuch an important part of their
lives because they are, they arethe most important part of their
lives in this stage of life,their peers, right? So me having
an idea of who those people areis incredibly important, and so
that that feeds into what Iwanted to say next, which is
just staying connected, justlike you said, having that space
(51:32):
for connection, and that mightmean taking away their devices
for a period of time so thatthey can have have a break. And
that's how I want to frame it tothem. It's not like, Oh, you're
punished, or oh, I don't trustyou. It's Hey, relax and take a
break.
Chris (51:48):
And when you say it in such a way of like, taking away
the device, sometimes it mightlook like that. But there's also
ways to frame activities thatjust don't involve devices,
absolutely
Morgan (51:59):
right? And then finally, really practicing what I preach.
You know, when I'm telling them,you've got to have empathy for
people, and you've got to dothis, and I've got to do all of
that, I have to do that. Andthat's not always easy, and
that's still a work in progresson my part.
Chris (52:14):
Yeah, I love that. That's exactly where I was going with
the road rage thing. I mean,what an opportunity. The next
time that happens and there's achild in the car, that's an
opportunity, that's anopportunity to say out loud,
what's going on with that persontoday? I wonder they I wonder if
they're having a hard day. Yeah,be curious. Vocalize it. Just
(52:35):
see what
Morgan (52:36):
that does over time. All right, well, basically, we have
a lot of questions and no clue.
Well, we said zero clue, likezero clue. I mean, I ultimately,
I wish we, I wish we had answersfor this kind of thing. But, you
know, we're right there witheverybody else trying to figure
it out, and I don't know thatanybody has the answer. This is
new stuff. We just got to keepshowing up and doing the best
(52:59):
that we can. Yeah, well,
Chris (53:01):
thanks for hanging out with us today. Yeah,
Morgan (53:05):
and we will see you next time in the mud. In the mud.
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