Episode Transcript
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Morgan (00:01):
Hey, I'm Morgan. I'm
Chris. Welcome to the midlife
mud, where we promise to bringthe real shit, all the grit and
pretty much zero clue about howto deal with this crazy phase of
life. And
Chris (00:12):
by the way, because this
is all about feeling less alone,
what we want most is to connectwith you
Morgan (00:18):
absolutely. So take a
few seconds and visit the
midlife mud.com and join ourcommunity, and you'll stay up to
date on all the dirt, and, evenbetter, become a part of the
conversation. We can't wait to
Chris (00:29):
see you there. All right,
tighten those boots and let's
get muddy. You.
Morgan (00:44):
Welcome to the mud and
happy. Happy April Fool's Day.
It's April Fool's Day. I don't
Chris (00:50):
like April Fool's Day. I
don't know why. What I'm not I'm
not much of a joker. I'm noteither. I don't enjoy practical
jokes a lot of times. You know,one of the
Morgan (01:03):
things that I think is
funny. I mean, I think there's
some, some just silly littlethings that are totally
harmless, that are fine. I thinksometimes people take it way too
seriously, and it goes too far,like I think I was, you know,
like that show, Game of Thrones,the guy Kit Harington, the
actor, yes, who plays Jon Snow.
So he and his wife, who was shewas a character also in anyway,
(01:24):
they got married in real life,yeah, and he had this big joke
where he had a prosthetic headof his maid, and it was like
all, you know, just it lookedlike it had been severed, and he
stuck it in their refrigerator.
And then she opened the door,and it looked really real. It
(01:45):
was like, from a movie set, likethat, good, yeah, and, I mean,
and he recorded it, and it washorrible. I mean, it was
horrible. Her, her reaction toit was horrible. So that not so
much. That's not funny too far.
But I do really love like, Haveyou ever seen when people will
put a saran wrap across a doorframe? Oh, yeah, and people will
go walking in and smash theirface against it like, I love
(02:09):
that, because it's totallyharmless and it's hilarious.
Yeah, I've seen some really goodones of those, but you've never
done any pranks or any fun. I
Chris (02:22):
can't honestly think of
any. I'm sure that I have do
people
Morgan (02:25):
around you, like, do the
kids do them at all? Or do they
even care about Abraham? They
Chris (02:29):
do it a little bit, but
not. It's never really been a
huge tradition, yeah, not here,either, a little bit, but not.
There's no, like, oneupsmanship. I know a lot of
people really get into like I'mgonna get you next time.
Morgan (02:42):
Super into it. Yeah. Oh.
Anyway, so if any of you guysknow of any good, any good
pranks, or you have any Up YourSleeve today, then share them
with us. It'll be fun to
Chris (02:53):
hear since the last time.
I don't know why it feels likeit's been six years since we
recorded an episode.
Morgan (03:00):
Well, it kind
Chris (03:01):
of has not. It hasn't
been that long, but it feels
like a long time, and it feelslike a lot has happened. And one
of the things that we've done inconjunction with the podcast is
created this community of folkswhere we share with them, and
the hope is that it creates thisfeedback loop, so we have an
(03:21):
amazing kind of nucleus ofpeople that that have signed up,
and we got a few call outsspecifically around some of the
last few episodes that werereally, really nice and well
Morgan (03:34):
specifically about the
last two episodes, right? Yeah,
which kind of dove a littledeeper into our stories a little
Chris (03:41):
deeper, yeah, and it
elicited some sharing of other
folks talking about, you know,relating points and just really
appreciating the discussion andthe vulnerability and the
honesty. And to me, it just beena lot to hear that,
Morgan (03:57):
yeah, I'm with you. It
really did, and it surprised me
that the timing of it, I mean,really, multiple people reached
out in the same day in responseto both of those episodes. And
it just felt kind of like we weneeded that in a way,
Chris (04:12):
well, just to go a little
bit behind the scenes, like we
had spent some time playingaround with recording, and
believe it or not, we don'talways get it on the first take,
and
Morgan (04:25):
we are still learning
we're little babies when it
comes to podcasting. I don'tknow,
Chris (04:30):
I don't think we really
talked about it a lot, but I
just sensed that you had somethings on your mind around the
podcast, and just really, Ithink both of us really want it
to have an impact and bemeaningful for people and and
there's always this question of,is it really connecting? Yeah,
Morgan (04:48):
like I said to a couple
people, it feels like we're just
kind of shouting into the voidsometimes. And yes, definitely,
yeah.
Chris (04:55):
Except there's no echo
right
Morgan (04:59):
in. It's a labor of
love. You know, it is a lot of
work. It's a labor of love. Butat the end of the day, when you
and I set out to do this, it wasreally about feeling less alone
and connecting with people. Andso it just felt really good,
yeah, that some people arelistening. It's really
resonating with them, and it'sit's sparking some conversation,
which is fantastic. Well, what
Chris (05:19):
I loved all of a sudden
it was just like this rapid fire
of this is really meaningful.
And it came in emails. It camein texts and voice messages.
Voice messages. Yes, we got ourvery first voice message. It was
Morgan (05:33):
like the universe was
like, keep going.
Unknown (05:36):
Guys follow the oh man,
keep going.
Morgan (05:39):
And ultimately, our
intention is with the community
that we build, which, by theway, if you would like to become
a part of our muddy community,all you have to do is go to the
midlife mud.com/join and signup. And what that means is
you'll get some emails from usevery now and again. Promise we
won't spam you a bunch. But ourintention is really to connect
(06:02):
our listeners to each other atsome point with a live event or
something. So that's yet to bedetermined, and it's a little
ways down the line. But ifthat's something you ever think
you might be interested in, jumpon board all aboard, anything to
add. I
Chris (06:17):
don't know. That's all
I've got.
Morgan (06:22):
I like it. I like it.
Okay. On to what are we doingtoday? We
Chris (06:27):
I think you and I can
agree that life often feels
super stressful, yeah, and thatsometimes it feels like there's
just no way out of that, likeyou're just stuck in that
stress, and there's not really agreat way to relieve it. And
yeah, we can sort of do it, butmostly we just all look forward
to vacations.
Morgan (06:48):
We're just kind of
suffering until the next break,
right? We're
Chris (06:52):
just kind of suffering,
and there's not this daily
release of that stress, like,what are we supposed to do with
it? So that's what we're talkingabout today, stress relief,
stress relief.
Morgan (07:04):
And to kind of launch
into this, we have all heard the
multitude of things that we cando to reduce our stress, right?
We know what they are. Maybewe're not doing all of them, but
that's okay. We all know aboutjust having a good, regular self
care routine. You know, gettingenough sleep, eating, well,
exercising, I'm falling asleep.
As I'm saying this, like, whocares?
Chris (07:27):
Just as a quick side
note, what since we did, geez,
what episode was it in? Maybedreaming? We were talking about,
like, things that we do to kindof shift into a different place,
right, of dreaming versus beingreally practical. And I think
you and I both mentioned this. Imentioned meditation. Now I
(07:49):
still get teased at home aboutthat, about meditating, Honey,
are you meditating right now?
They're like, I've never seenyou meditate.
Morgan (07:59):
Oh, my God, my kids, my
kids walk in on me meditating
all the time, and it's funnybecause they start their
sentence, they like, barge inthe room. They're like, mom, and
they know I'm not going toanswer. I'm just sitting there
with my eyes closed, and they'relike, damn it. They walk out of
the room. Sometimes they'll pickup my watch to look at how much
time is left, so they know whenthey can bother me. Yes,
Chris (08:18):
see your style of
meditation is much more formal
than mine, yeah? And I tend tospend an awful lot of time in
the car by myself, and I willstop the car and sit there and
meditate for a couple minutes,yeah? And that's how I get that
done. But I still get teasedabout that.
Morgan (08:36):
Well, it does have sort
of this stigma, I guess I don't
know, not that this episode isabout meditation, but no, but
yeah, so meditation I woulddefinitely put in for my own
personal self care routine. It'spart of it. Having a community
around you, a social communitythat you connect with often.
Breathing practices kind of goalong with meditation. We've
(08:57):
talked about that. And, youknow, having a gratitude
practice that you do every day.
These are all things that canhelp with stress reduction.
We've, we've heard of all thesethings. What are some others
Chris (09:07):
for me? Well, I like to
frolic. Okay.
Morgan (09:13):
Noted, I don't know why
Bambi just popped into my brain,
but
Chris (09:18):
yeah, I like it. I like
where you're going with that
follow Bambi. It could be anomen, or
Morgan (09:26):
it could be drugs.
Chris (09:30):
I will put a quick
disclaimer. None of my
activities have anything to dowith drugs or alcohol, at least
not currently. Okay,
Morgan (09:40):
so this is not an acid
trip that you're talking about.
Now, I say
Chris (09:43):
it that way because when
I think of the word frolic, I
think about like a physicalspace of being in that is
lighter and there's lots ofdifferent activities, like,
obviously, I mean, it's come upa lot already for me getting
out. Side. Getting exposure tothe vastness of the outdoors is
(10:05):
a huge piece of what I do tokind of unload stress. Yeah, the
other thing that I really lovedoing is I love to get involved
in, like, multiple sensoryexperiences. Like I want to I
want to feel the wind in myhair. I want to touch it. I want
to be under the water. I want tobe I want to smell it. I want to
(10:26):
taste it. Yeah,
Morgan (10:27):
isn't that part of being
in nature? Like, I feel like
that is so much more accessible.
But I
Chris (10:33):
am like that, whether I'm
in nature, quote, unquote or
not, yeah, or not. Like, I justthat's I like to really interact
physically with the world. Andyou
Morgan (10:44):
are probably the only
person that I know that
literally smells his food beforehe sticks it in his mouth. And I
mean, like, it's a production.
It is not just a little, alittle aroma checking. It is
like in your nostril. For my
Chris (10:59):
entire life, I have been
teased about it. I put it in my
nose, and I feel somisunderstood. No,
Morgan (11:09):
but I see, I know what
you're saying. Like, there,
there's something about fullyexperiencing whatever it is
you're experiencing, which Iactually envy. A lot of people
don't do that. They don't takethe time to do that. So you're
that's what you're supposed todo. Where are the weird ones?
Chris (11:23):
Well, I don't know if
it's supposed to or not. I think
it's a pretty personal thing,but for me, that is super
important. Yeah,
Morgan (11:29):
well, I think it's part
of being in the moment. Yes, you
know it's there's not really asupposed to, but if you really
want to connect and be fullypresent, connecting to all of
your senses is the way to dothat.
Chris (11:41):
Another one for me is
laughter, like genuine laughter,
and I like to just make fun ofthe things that life brings to
us. I'm not big on making fun ofother people or any of that
stuff, but you know what? Theworld and life gives us so much
material that's funny as hellevery day. It's right in front
(12:04):
of us. Yeah, and I love to playwith that.
Morgan (12:07):
Oh, you said, you said a
word there, what you said? A
special certain word there.
Chris (12:12):
If you say it backwards,
it's Yelp. There's laughter.
Yes.
Morgan (12:20):
Play, play. Let's talk
about that word. It's out there.
Now we've said the word, and ifyou have not totally freaked
out, like I tend to do when thisword comes up and turned off the
episode. First, thank you fornot turning it off. Secondly, we
really want to double down onthis and talk about why play is
important for adults, not justkids, and how that plays into
(12:41):
stress relief and all thatstuff. So we're gonna do the
little bit of that, talkingabout what it is, how we do it,
and then, better than that, atthe end, we're gonna really kind
of do some a playful game. OhGod, whatever. This
Unknown (12:54):
is totally up your
alley. I know I love playing.
Morgan (12:58):
I'm like, strapped to my
feet here.
Chris (13:02):
I do just want to
interject, like when we started
talking about stress, and thenplay as an anecdote for stress,
I got very curious, and I talkedto it wasn't a formal survey,
but I would say I talked to 10people that are adults, kind of
in the midlife mud, so to speak.
And I just found it astoundinglyinteresting the response. And it
(13:26):
was a non verbal response acrossthe board. I would bring the
word play up, and people arelike, like they had to eaten
something sour, play. I guessfor kids, one person actually
said that? Yeah,
Morgan (13:42):
I can tell you what my
experience was when you brought
this up as a potential topic.
It's like, I I logically knowit's an important topic, and at
the same time I like, shut down.
It's like, yeah, it's just notmy bag. You know what I mean,
this was a challenge for me toreally explore, play and think
about it.
Chris (14:02):
It's not your bag, so to
speak. I know that that's your
frame of it as an adult, butyeah, right. But that being
said, I can tell you times thatwe we fucking play on this
podcast.
Morgan (14:15):
I know No, we do. But
when you think like, when I
think of it as, like, Okay, I'mgonna incorporate this into my
stress relief routine. Like, ifI'm going to be intentional
about play, fucking Forget it.
It turns into not play, yeah,because I manipulate it too
much. Like this begs thequestion, What? What is play?
What are we talking about whenwe talk about play for an adult,
(14:38):
are we talking about, like,building blocks and board games?
Like, what are we talking about,getting drunk on vacation? No,
you know, like, I actually saidthis to my to my husband. I was
like, Oh, we're gonna talk aboutplay. And he's like, What do you
mean? Like, vacation? Like,really, we don't know what it
is. What is it? It can
Chris (14:56):
be. It can Yeah, so I was
confused about that too. What.
This is funny, because I loveplay. I connect to it, but I
struggle. Like, when you ask me,what is play, Chris, I'm like,
Ah, I don't know. Like, yeah. Sowhat I kind of came to learn
about others that talk aboutplay, and I read the book by Dr
(15:19):
Stewart, who I think is one ofthe leading experts about play,
and he's a physician. I believehe is.
Morgan (15:24):
He's the he's also the
head of the National Institute
of play, who knew there was sucha thing? Of course,
Chris (15:29):
he is. Yeah, he talks a
lot less about my brain. Wanted
to go into what activities areplay, yeah, but it's not that.
It's what are thecharacteristics and the feelings
when you're doing whatever theactivity is, and that activity
could be very differentdepending on who you are and
what your interests are. Yeah,it's hard to define in terms of
(15:50):
an activity or well, and
Morgan (15:52):
it kind of defeats the
purpose of it in a way. By
defining it, you're taking awaythe play of it, right?
Chris (15:58):
I know that you
specifically asked me about
adulthood, but, but one of theimportant grounding points for
me was to go back and thinkabout childhood, yeah, and to
think about like, what was playthen? And the way that I
connected to it is, yes, I havesome examples of play, but it's
about how it made me feel right,and I can still connect to that
(16:22):
same feeling as an adult. Now,it just may look slightly
different, but really, actuallynot that different.
Morgan (16:28):
For me. You're still
following around, right?
Chris (16:32):
I mean, I can remember,
for example, actually, let's do
a little fun comparison game. Sookay, when I was a child, I
remember going to Sears in thesuburban, like the three toned
suburban with the CB and thepower windows, which at that
time was like an amazing luxuryfeature, mega big deal, and
(16:53):
getting a maroon with a boldorange lettering, physio fit
bicycle, which was too big forme, and it didn't have the bar
that went straight across. I hadthe one that went down so I
could get my leg over it. Andthat thing was a gateway to
freedom for me. I mean, I lovedthat bike. Oh yeah, I used to
play truck in the driveway. Iwould get you out on your pink
(17:16):
coffee and I'd pretend like Iwas in a big truck and you were
in a sports car, and I wastalking on a CB, and we would
ride around in circles,
Morgan (17:25):
right? But see, okay,
right there, there's something
there. It's not just the ridingaround, no, that's part of it,
but it's also the imaginationand the that kind of stuff that
goes along with it.
Chris (17:37):
Flash forward, I can
remember I did not ride around
in the driveway and make trucksounds and CB sounds anymore,
but I remember buying a newmountain bike that I had wanted
for years and years, and I didit with a friend of mine, and we
both bought these bikes aroundthe same time and just had tons
of fun talking about the bike,planning to buy it, planning,
(17:59):
where are We gonna ride, goingout, like, the exploration of
all again, getting outside, allof that stuff.
Morgan (18:06):
There's so many
parallels to what you just said
to the trip that you had withyour good friend Jamie. Yeah,
like, there's the Explorerstuff, there's the getting the
gear and preparing for it, andgetting, you know, getting
physically ready and where areyou gonna go? And you're
outside, and so, yeah, I mean, Ican, I can draw that line
between that and the adult.
Chris (18:26):
The physio fit was just
like a rudimentary version of
Morgan (18:30):
that, right? Yeah. See,
I think for me, play is not as
my version of play as a kiddoesn't translate into my
adulthood as much. Maybe I'mwrong. Like, maybe I'm not
thinking about it.
Chris (18:42):
I have one more lakeside.
Yeah, we used to go to Lakeside,which is this big rock quarry in
town that's converted into aswimming pool. And it's like
this, it's just a cool place.
It's a really neat place to goswimming. And I remember, and
you would do this with me, wewould go over there, and there
was one corner of the rockquarry that had this little
(19:03):
concrete landing that was rightat the surface of the water,
replaced Shark, Shark anddolphins. I mean, all fucking
day, all day, eight hours ofthat, to the point where, like,
you get out of the pool and yourlungs feel tight. You can't
breathe because you've beenholding your breath so much.
Yes, yes, yeah, no. It's so fun.
I remember that. So now flashforward last summer. We're
(19:25):
driving down the road in CapeCod, and you know, my
girlfriend's in the car, and Iput on the blinker, and she's
like, where are you going? I'mlike, I'm going into the surf
shop Today's the day. She'slike, What are you talking
about? Said I'm buying a wetsuittoday. She looked at me like,
what you are, and I bought awetsuit and I go to the ocean,
(19:47):
not right now, it's a little toocold because I just have a
summer version, and I just loveto be in the water and
Morgan (19:56):
swim with the sharks.
The sharks literally are there.
I. Uh, to your partner, you didnot hear that? Yeah, you didn't
hear that, yeah. Well, andthat's the thing is, you're good
at you are good at play, andthose things that you did as a
kid show up in sort of similar,more adult ways, but they're
still very playful. And for me,I did all kinds of things as a
(20:17):
kid. I definitely rememberplaying as a kid, and I can be
very silly as an adult in veryprivate situations. But I don't
again, it's not something I'mlike, Oh, I'm gonna this is me
being intentional about play.
You know, my version of playingwhen I was a kid was like,
putting on some of mom's oldhigh heel shoes and standing in
front of the steps in the foyerand clip clopping around, acting
(20:38):
like a teacher, you know, like Iwould do that all day long,
yeah, but, you know, how doesthat translate into now? Like, I
don't, I don't know. Oh,
Chris (20:48):
come on, you can tell us.
Okay,
Unknown (20:51):
I still do it. No.
Morgan (20:56):
So back to Okay. I think
a lot of people, and maybe I'm
just speaking for people thatare sort of like me, that maybe
struggle to think of what playreally is for adults like what
are some of the commonmisconceptions that adults have
about play when you sort of tookyour survey? What were some
(21:16):
other things maybe that came up?
Well,
Chris (21:17):
one time, I took the
survey at the end of a day where
we had been skiing, and one ofthe guys that I was skiing with
little bit older than me, and wewere skiing in the woods and
through bumps and stuff likethat, and we were having a good
time, like we were visiblylaughing, and at the end of the
day, I said, that was fun. Thatwas like, felt like played. He
(21:40):
looked at me like, What are youtalking about? I mean, he was,
like, indignant about it. Sowhat is
Morgan (21:45):
that? Do you think? I
don't know. I don't know. I
think people like me think it's,it is a waste of time, you know,
it's like, it's not productive,quote, unquote. And so it feels,
it can feel like a waste oftime, yeah, or that it's just
too silly. You know,
Chris (22:01):
I think that's a very
true conception for a lot of
people. Maybe
Morgan (22:05):
again, this is more
confined to our country and like
American culture, you know,because we're very Go, go, go.
Yeah.
Chris (22:11):
It could be, yeah. I
think there's also this
quarantining of play thathappens. And we talked about
that already a little bit like,Oh, time for vacation we can
play now, vacations over, playsover, yeah, we're
Morgan (22:24):
compartmentalizing a
little bit, right? And the
danger in that, or the problemwith that, is that it sucks. How
often are you on vacation inyour life? Yeah, maybe a couple
weeks out of the year. Not thatmuch. And so you're gonna
confine all of that to justthose two weeks. It's it's sad.
Chris (22:41):
Well, there's another
thing that I think I observe is
there's this very polarized viewof play, like I'm either serious
and I'm doing my everyday, superstressful life, or I'm playing,
it's either or now nowhere do Ihear in that. You know those two
options I'm doing my life, it'sstressful, but I play a little
(23:03):
bit every day. Or this wasplayful today? Yeah? No, today
was not playful, right? It wasserious. Or today was a play
day, yes,
Morgan (23:13):
yeah. It's not the both
in one or the balance by two in
some way, right? Or introducingplay into work, I think my head
would explode.
Chris (23:25):
That's one of my
favorites. I literally feel
like, especially now, the lastcouple years, I've really leaned
into that. I used to not, butI've really leaned into my
humor. It's one of my gifts,right, as a way to connect with
people, not just at work, butsince we're talking about work,
(23:46):
I use it every day, in almostevery single work encounter that
I
Morgan (23:49):
had, yeah, well, and I
think that goes into what we're
back to, what's the definitionof play? I think ultimately,
there's, there is no greatdefinition. It's not a thing.
No, it's, it's more of aprocess, right? And there are
some elements to it which we'llwe'll get to in a moment. And I
think humor is a big one, and itis a way that we can infuse it
into our daily lives and nothave it be like just work or
(24:12):
just play. You know, you canmingle them together in some
way, right? I think it's alsoreally important for us to speak
about the idea of avoidance orescapism? Yes, versus
Chris (24:24):
play. Well, do you know
how to tell the difference?
Like, how does it feel differentfor you if you're avoiding
versus playing? I
Morgan (24:32):
think avoidance, for me,
there's an anxiety that comes
with it. There is a total like,it's like, I'm trying to get
away from the way that I feeland my whole my whole self, you
know, yes,
Chris (24:46):
I like the use of the
word anxiety. I mean, if I'm
avoiding something, there's thislittle shelf in the back of my
consciousness that's constantlygoing you're avoiding this,
you're avoiding this, you'reavoiding this, you're. Yeah, and
I can try to suppress it, but ifI'm truly lost in play, like,
that's not there, right? Yeah.
And that's the difference.
Morgan (25:09):
That's the difference, I
think too, it's important. And
you have said this before, thereis, like, a lack of connection
to self when you're when you'retrying to escape or avoid, for
instance, like, if you're gonnago out and again, I say this
with no judgment, but if youridea of play is I'm gonna go out
and I'm gonna get trashed withthe girls at wine night this
(25:32):
weekend. To me, that doesn'tfeel like play. If the reason
you're doing that is because youhad a really hard week and you
need to blow off steam and youjust want to, like, forget that
it all happened, you know,because I feel like in that
process there's, there will be adisconnect between you and the
rest of the world and yourself,right,
Chris (25:53):
right? But it's so
common. I mean, especially in
the workplace, and I did thisfor ever, you know, it's that
whole, like, Friday night, we'regonna go out and we're gonna
have a few drinks and, God, wecan just get away from this
stressful week, yeah? But thething is, like, that's
avoidance, right? That's notplay. That's not the same as
(26:14):
play. So that's a good segue,like, into, what are we talking
about?
Morgan (26:18):
Yeah? Like, then, what
the fuck is it? And I did my
research. Oh,
Chris (26:24):
speaking of which, what I
was having an exchange with
someone at work today, and shesaid kind of sheepishly, like I
never used that shit over there.
And then she was like, oh mygod, I'm sorry I said that. And
I said, you know, my sister andI have this thing that you don't
really know someone until youhear them say fuck in an organic
way, and her whole body justrelaxed. She's like, Oh
Unknown (26:50):
yeah, we're getting
real people.
Morgan (26:53):
What the fuck is play?
So Stuart Brown, like you said,psychiatrist, founder of the
National Institute of play. Hewrote this book, which we will
link in the show notes, calledplay, how it shapes the brain,
opens the imagination andinvigorates the soul. I love
that he says the opposite ofplay is not work. It's
depression. That reallyresonates to me, because I would
(27:13):
think, Oh, well, if you're notplaying, you're working. We were
just talking about work versusplay, right? It's really easy to
put those two things asopposites. So I love that. He
also says that play is practicefor the body, exercise, for the
feelings and training for themind. And that just makes me
feel like I could be The NextKarate Kid follow that more. I
(27:35):
love it. Wax on, wax off, baby.
Now
Chris (27:40):
I'm imagining you like
with your arms up, doing the
crane, like you're riding amonster chopper bike. I mean,
seriously, that
Morgan (27:49):
just makes that speaks
to the overachiever in me. We're
gonna get good at all thethings. He describes it as the
essence of freedom, and so helists these properties of play.
One is that there is apparentpurposelessness to it, meaning,
you know, you're not doing it tomake money, you're not doing it
to be liked, or it's justpurposeless. It is voluntary.
(28:12):
You're not being forced to do itlike I am today.
Chris (28:17):
So far, I'm giving giving
you like a C plus, but you have
potential.
Morgan (28:23):
I know we're working on
it, maybe by the end, we'll see
there's inherent attraction,meaning you enjoy it, you like
it. It's stimulating in someway. Yeah, there's freedom from
time, meaning you just get lostin it. You lose track of time.
It can eight hours can go by andit feels like minutes there is
diminished self consciousness,meaning that you're not
(28:45):
performing for anyone, and yougive up the need to try to look
good for other people. And youalso give up thinking about
thinking at all, which I love,because I can't do that.
Chris (28:58):
Can you think of anything
that you have done or like to
do. Where you notice thathappens, where I give up
thinking about thinking, yeah,where you're just not thinking
about anything else. I have tothink about that. I have to
think about what I think aboutnot thinking.
Morgan (29:16):
No, there definitely
are. I know there are. I just
can't pinpoint one right now.
Maybe it would be playing thepiano. Oh, I love that. Not like
learning a new song, becausethat does require a lot of focus
and thinking. If I know a songreally well and I just sit down
to play it, that's when I can'tthink. I actually cannot. I'm
not one of those people that cantalk or sing while I play it. I
(29:37):
can't play interesting so Iliterally cannot think while I'm
playing that's a beautifulexample. That's interesting.
See, I knew it was theresomewhere. I don't know we had
this moment.
Chris (29:50):
My girlfriend and I
recently where again skiing, and
we got to the middle of the run,and she kind of pulled up next
to me, or she'd probably tellme. That I pulled up next to her
because I was going slower, andshe said, you know, the thing
that I really love about skiingis I don't think of anything
else, and that's play. That'swhat it is,
Morgan (30:12):
yeah, something you just
intensely enjoy and get lost in,
get lost in it, right? For noother purpose than to just do it
and have fun. A couple of moreproperties that he lists are
improvisational potential,meaning that it can be
spontaneous. It can shift andchange. There are no rules. It
can be what you want it to be,whenever you want it to be. Also
this continuation of desire, youknow, we're always going to be
(30:36):
trying to find ways to prolongit and keep it going. So it's
funny, because you just askedme, I know you have one. What is
it? At least one, right? But Ihad to really think about it. So
I would ask our listeners tothink about, what's that thing
for you? What's a thing? There'sprobably more than one, yeah,
but if you're like me, and it'shard to even like you, think you
(30:56):
don't know how to play that's agood a good question to ask
yourself.
Chris (31:00):
There's one other word
that just keeps circling in my
mind that's embedded in thisstuff, as you're talking about
the properties of play,curiosity. Yeah, you know, just
that sort of pure, innocentcuriosity. Like, how does this
work, and why did that happen?
And, you know, but not in aheadset way, yeah, well, and in
that improvisational way,
Morgan (31:24):
I would say the reason
he probably doesn't list that as
an attribute, because you'reright, it can be yeah for some
people. For others, maybe not.
I'm a really curious person bynature, and I think that would
definitely be an element for me.
The things that I tend to lovebeing playful with are more
centered around thinking andwondering and all of that. Some
(31:47):
people, their version of play isliterally to just go out and
roll in the mud, I don't know,just get wild and crazy and not
be curious at all. Just be init. There
Chris (31:57):
is this kind of
interesting loop that happens
for me sometimes, and it's backto this fascinating enigma of
talking about properties of playversus the activities. Because
if I take an activity, it can,it can start out as not playful
and then become playful later.
If I tried to play the piano,for example, to take yours. That
(32:19):
would not be playful for me,right? Because I don't know how
to play the piano anymore, butif I applied myself to learn how
to play it, some of the basics,it would become play for me
later, yes, when I got goodenough to be more
improvisational. Yeah, you knowwhat I mean? Yes.
Morgan (32:38):
And to let go of that
focus. It's kind of like me and
skiing, right? Like when I'mskiing, I am really thinking
about, okay, really, what I'mthinking about is not dying, but
eventually, with enough practiceand really getting better at it,
I can see how it becomes play,right, and less about death. So
what we're saying is play isimportant, right? What are we
(33:01):
getting out of it? What's thepayoff of play in adulthood?
Well, it makes me joyful. That'slike the number one, right? Like
it's just fun. I just feel like
Chris (33:10):
this lightness, and with
that, I feel a stress relief.
Even in a serious situation, ifyou interject a little of
appropriate lightness or humor,it can really help just relieve
the stress. Like, no, you can'tchange the situation a lot of
times. Or, you know, even inproviding some play or relief,
(33:32):
you can do that without avoidingthe situation, right? And there
can also be a real renewal ofenergy, yeah, you know, because
what do we feel when we feelstressed? Do you feel energetic?
Hell, no, no, no. It feels likesomebody sat on you.
Morgan (33:47):
Right? Have you ever
been in that situation where you
you laugh so hard, like pee yourpants crying, can't stop
laughing? There
Chris (33:55):
is a technical term for
this. You're talking about being
laughing being
Morgan (33:59):
laughy. Yes, which we
invented circa 1985
Chris (34:07):
Yeah, it is a thing, but
it's
Morgan (34:08):
it's true. It makes such
a difference. Yeah, the way that
you feel after that, thechemicals that change in your
body, Yeah, crazy. It's crazy.
So definitely, that renewedenergy, absolutely, what comes
to mind for me. The other
Chris (34:22):
thing is connection.
Yeah, right. And I love theexample that you just made about
laughing, especially if you'relaughing like that with someone,
yeah, there's such a connectionthat happens around that, too.
And there's power in that. There
Morgan (34:34):
is I've noticed, like,
the more that we talk about it,
that is something that Iactually do very routinely in my
life is integrate humor. It'sbeen a lot of our language since
we were little. It definitely,
Chris (34:46):
you know, is interesting
to me, that you and I are very
different with play in a lot ofways. I mean, that's become so
clear in just working on thisepisode. But humor is 100% We've
always that's our language,yeah? And it's a certain brand
of humor that that nobody
Morgan (35:05):
else understands. Yeah,
Unknown (35:10):
we hope you do, but
Morgan (35:11):
humor can really be that
connector, for sure. The other
thing pay off about play as anadult is that imagination, and
we kind of touched on this inthe dreaming episode, so there's
some parallels here. Butimagination is like a muscle
that if you don't use it, itwill atrophy and play really
strengthens your imagination,which then improves your ability
(35:33):
to reframe situations, right?
And in midlife in particular, wedon't have a lot of control over
our circumstances a lot of thetime. So if you have the ability
to reframe the situation, changethe way that you look at it, it
can change the way that youexperience it, right? Yeah, and
so that is how play can beincredibly powerful. Like if you
get laid off from your job,that's not something you
(35:53):
necessarily had control over.
And you could view that as theend of the world, or you could
look at that as an opportunityto explore and try something
totally new, which could beexciting. So
Chris (36:04):
you're talking about the
ability to kind of reshape the
way that you're having anexperience, the way that you
frame right
Morgan (36:11):
and play is the training
system you use. How much less
playful could I be? But it'strue.
Chris (36:21):
It is true, but it's true
in one of those ways where it
may not feel like this hugerevelation all at once. I love
the fitness analogy because itis a lot like that, yeah.
Morgan (36:34):
Like, if you decide, oh,
I want to get toned, I want to I
want to get stronger, you don'tjust go eat a couple carrots and
lift a five pound weight andsay, I'm done. Where's my
result? It takes time, repeatedeffort,
Chris (36:46):
and I think I talked
about it a little bit earlier.
In terms of connecting withothers. You can offer this to
other people as well, who may behaving a tough experience with
something, and you can inject alittle play or just a re shift
of the focus for just a moment,and it can really relieve
pressure and help them sort ofget out of a place. Yeah, and
(37:09):
go, huh? Never thought of thatthat way. Yeah. It's really,
really rewarding to do thatsometimes. Yeah,
Morgan (37:16):
another thing about play
that I want to say it because I
know we want to get to our game.
I'm stalling as much as Ipossibly can. It's
Unknown (37:22):
time to play. Scott
Eberly, who was the former
Morgan (37:26):
editor of the American
Journal of play and the former
vice president of the NationalMuseum of Play in Rochester, New
York. Chris, you should goreport back,
Chris (37:35):
still trying to convince
the family they're kind of hot
and cold about it. That soundslike fun, man. You know the one
of the coolest things of lookingat all of the exhibits that are
at that place, it just driveshome the point that play is not
about the activity, right?
There's a freaking wide range ofstuff for many, many different
(37:56):
people to find something that
Morgan (38:00):
that they consider play,
or that they that feels like
play. It's how they how it feelsfor them. Yeah. But Scott Eberly
talks about how play can fosterempathy, and I just wanted to
highlight that, because I thinkright now, in today's world, not
that it's across the board, butI feel like we could always,
always, always use more of that,the ability to put yourself into
somebody else's shoes and sortof experience what they're
(38:23):
experiencing. We need more ofthat. And so play is a way to
strengthen that as well. Andthen finally, it just kind of
like gets you out of your rut.
I'm a very regimented person. Iknow you're take the look of
shock off your face.
Unknown (38:37):
No, you're not take it
away.
Morgan (38:41):
You know, play gets you
out of your rut. It fosters
spontaneity and creativity andjust mixes things up and makes
things more fun and less boring.
So there's my whole soapboxabout why I should love play as
Should we all
Chris (38:56):
you are a wonderful
player, as long as your brain is
led to believe that you're notplaying exactly.
Morgan (39:04):
If I can, if I can,
convince myself that I'm
training for something, I'm allgood.
Chris (39:09):
It's like the kid that
learns to ride the bike and is
doing fine, and then you'relike, look, you're no training
wheels crash. Okay. So now we'regonna play a little game that
we're calling slopseat mudseat.
And that's because we couldn'treally decide what to call the
game, so we're just calling itall of it. It's our
Morgan (39:33):
version of hot seat.
We're just gonna call itslopseat mud seat. And who knows
if it's something that's fun andand you guys like it, and we
have fun doing it. We might doit again sometimes. So
basically, there's no rules,there's no there's no points,
there's no nothing. It's reallyjust us asking each other silly
questions, and we do not knoweach other's questions. Okay,
okay. Who's going first? I'll
Chris (39:55):
go first. Okay. Which
celebrity would you want to
narrate your life? And whyMorgan
Morgan (40:00):
Freeman? Because his
voice, no, I'm kidding, he's a
badass. What celebrity? JimGaffigan? Just because I love
him, and I feel like his voice,when he's sort of exasperated,
is so much of what my life is so
Chris (40:21):
I don't know if this was
your experience or not, but for
whatever reason, you just saidthat, and I started thinking
about when he became reallypopular. I remember you sharing
him with me, yeah, and we wouldsit and watch Jim Gaffigan and
just fucking laugh from our gut.
I love him. He's funny. He'sreally funny.
Morgan (40:42):
I got to see him. He
came. He came here once, and I
got to go watch him. He did hiswhole bit about hot pockets. And
I thought the whole audience wasjust gonna shit themselves.
Chris (40:54):
So funny. It also like
the McDonald's thing. Why does
everybody say they don't eat atMcDonald's? Like, hello, billion
served.
Morgan (41:05):
Oh, I love him. He's
good. He's good, yeah, so that's
what. That's who it would be. Ilike it. It'd be Jim, Jimmy. Um,
okay, if you were a Starbucksdrink, what would you be? Ah, I
want specifics, damn it. Well,
Chris (41:19):
Fenty, light, ice, one
shot of espresso, black. How's
that for playful bitch? That'sit. Wow.
Unknown (41:29):
That sounds like
corporate Chris drink. Come
Chris (41:33):
on, man. Well, okay, so
the playful Chris has moved on
to Dunkin Donuts, but it's thesame fucking drink. Okay,
Morgan (41:42):
well, then you have to
tell me why, because I like
caffeine. So wouldn't you belike a red eye? Aren't those,
like, loaded with caffeine?
Yeah, that's what it is. Butabout your personality, like, if
you were a Starbucks drink?
Well,
Chris (41:54):
my personality is that
when I choose to do something, I
just lean into it.
Morgan (41:59):
You're going for the
caffeine. That's right, you're
gonna drink a coffee, not
Chris (42:03):
about the frills. It's
not sugar. There's no this for
creams like get the coffee. All
Morgan (42:10):
right, yes, sir. All
right. Next. Okay,
Chris (42:14):
so now we're gonna move
into one of my sensory based
questions. Okay, what is yourdream combo for a build your own
ice cream flavor. My
Morgan (42:25):
dream combo, Oh, hmm, I
love s'mores. I live and die by
s'mores. All
Chris (42:33):
right, so I'm sure
s'mores exists, but it does
exist. If you were gonna add alittle smidgen to the s'mores,
what would it
Morgan (42:40):
be? I would put some
cayenne pepper on that bitch.
Ooh, light it up, just becauseyou wouldn't be expecting it.
And s'mores and fire go
Chris (42:49):
together. I don't know
what just happened in my brain,
but I just remembered the usualsuspects when Kaiser so say
dropped the lighter.
Morgan (42:59):
See, okay, I like it. I
would never eat that. By the
way. That sounds disgusting.
Okay, if there were a zombieapocalypse and the only thing
you had access to in order tosurvive was the very last thing
that you ordered from Amazon,what would you do with it?
Chris (43:15):
I need to know what it
is. Yeah,
Morgan (43:16):
go look it up. What was
it?
Chris (43:21):
What is it? It's very
fitting for today's topic.
Unknown (43:26):
It's a Rubik's Cube.
Chris (43:30):
I think I would totally
be fine, all right,
Morgan (43:33):
Bambi, what are you
doing with your
Unknown (43:35):
Rubik's Cube? I don't
know.
Chris (43:38):
Problem solving for
zombies.
Morgan (43:40):
Mind fuckery for the
zombies.
Unknown (43:44):
Could you chuck it? Is
there any weight to it? Would
it? I could
Chris (43:47):
not knock out a field
mouse with that thing. It's like
one of those super lightweightgamer Oh, like,
Morgan (43:54):
the really fast ones
that you can, like, they glide.
Yes, it's a speed that would beworthless. You'd be dead. Yeah,
Chris (43:59):
I've been learning how to
manipulate it with one hand.
Maybe you could
Morgan (44:03):
show that as a trick to
the zombies, and they would be
so impressed that they wouldwhen you live. Okay, what song
would you play every time youwalk into a room? What song
would I play forever every timeyou walk in the room? Ah, that's
a hard one. It depends on whatmood I'm in, but I will pick one
of my favorite songs, because itnever gets old to me, and that
(44:27):
is Tears for Fears. EverybodyWants to Rule the World. I have
a Tears for Fears shirt. I amthe world's biggest nerd, going
Chris (44:34):
back to real genius, that
is the song when they blew up
the house with popcorn.
Morgan (44:39):
I know, which is
probably why it came to mind.
But that really, is truly one ofmy favorite songs. Okay, what's
the dumbest injury you've everhad?
Chris (44:51):
Oh, it's good. It's good.
Do tell remember when I waslike, I don't know, 10 or 11? I
was down. Stairs in Nana'sapartment, you know, and she
used to live with us, yeah, andin her bathroom, she, God knows
why the fuck I was doing this,but she had that yellow cup,
yes, the yellow cup Yes, and Iput it on my face. Sucked as
(45:14):
hard as I could for like, a longtime to the point where my Are
you telling me you gave yourselfa face Hickey? Yes, all the way
around my whole mouth. Itenveloped my chin.
Unknown (45:31):
How long was it there?
Why don't I remember this? Longenough
Chris (45:35):
for me to get teased
relentlessly.
Unknown (45:39):
Oh, I love that. That's
Morgan (45:43):
hilarious. Oh, man,
okay, all
Chris (45:45):
right, I'm gonna give you
another one. If your dream house
had one completely unnecessaryroom, what would it be? A
completely unnecessary room likea room just completely
unpractical, just whatever Idon't
Morgan (45:58):
do, impractical.
Unknown (46:02):
Bruce, stretching.
You're really making
Morgan (46:04):
me stretch on this one.
Unknown (46:06):
You're getting toned. I
think you
Morgan (46:09):
know what it would be.
This would also have to comewith someone that would take
care of it, because I have nointerest in taking care of it.
But a pool, I would have anindoor pool. Ooh,
Chris (46:19):
I like it, yeah. Do you
think that? And it would have a
hot tub too? Yeah, okay. Do youthink that you would ever wear
like, a dolphin suit and goswimming in it?
Unknown (46:29):
Or am I pushing, you
know, you know how you have to,
like,
Morgan (46:32):
really be gentle when
you're first stretching, or
you're like, tear ligaments orsomething that wasn't, that was,
that was not gentle. If you werean action figure, what
accessories Would you come with?
Chris (46:44):
Anything that could make
me fly and be able to live
underwater? What
Unknown (46:48):
the hell accessories
would that be?
Chris (46:52):
Self fulfilled,
submarine, Jetpack, wings,
Morgan (46:57):
okay, I guess like
Batman, then Batman probably had
all of those things I don't like
Unknown (47:01):
Batman, okay, well,
God, sorry.
Morgan (47:07):
So we should wrap that
up so that we can walk away with
a few little micronutrientstoday. And for me, I would say
this has been this has beenhelpful in eye opening, in that
I know that I really don't needto take myself so seriously and
play itself. Is not pointless.
It actually serves a reallyimportant purpose for all of us,
(47:27):
especially adults. And again,appealing to my overachiever
self, it helps us get better atlife in general, especially in
really hard times, which I wouldventure to say that right now is
is a hard time. It's a hardseason of life. Yes, what are
you walking away with? I'msorry, what are you frolicking
away with?
Chris (47:50):
I feel like we should
post a video of frolicking, of
you frolicking. I want to seeyou. Oh, I could frolic. Okay,
do you want me to suck a rubbercup
that's advanced frolicking? Donot try that. Elm. Um, play is a
(48:17):
powerful connector. I think youknow among people, right? I can
connect with you and with otherpeople through play and humor,
but I also learn things aboutmyself when I get lost in play.
Yeah? So there's a discovery ofparts of me when I really just
let myself go, and
Morgan (48:36):
therein lies that
difference right between
escapism or avoidance and play,yeah? Because you're really,
actually tuning into yourselfmore, yeah. And
Chris (48:44):
it's that, like you
brought up earlier, the idea of
improvisational potential, likediscovering stuff within
yourself through seeing whathappens, letting it go, yeah,
yeah. It's also infectious ashell, yeah. I mean, I think
about comedy shows. You know,that's infectious. People love
that humor
Morgan (49:04):
is such a big theme here
for us. I mean, it may not be
for other people, but, man, thatfeels like such an important
piece of this, yeah, for us.
Chris (49:12):
Well, we already said
that for us, it's a language,
yeah, that we identify. But
Morgan (49:17):
even after having just
spent a few minutes laughing
with those questions, yeah, thatlighter feeling is there? That
rejuvenated? Yes, you know,
Chris (49:26):
I would only say that in
future podcasts, I would like to
start recording in the morning,because now I will not sleep for
like.
Morgan (49:37):
I'm amped. Okay, okay,
so yeah, so everybody get out
there and play Damn it and tellus what you thought of our
little slopse. Slopse mud seatgame. Slopseat. Mud seat might
just make it a thing. And don'tforget to join our community.
How do we do that again? You goto the V midlife mud.com/join
(50:00):
And just hit sign up. Okay, allright, and with that, we'll see
you next time in the mud.
Chris (50:13):
Thanks for being with us
in the mud today.
Morgan (50:15):
If you liked this
episode, do us a HUGE favor and
subscribe to the show. This isgonna make sure you never miss
an episode, and it's going tohelp us grow our muddy
community, which would mean theworld to us. See you
Chris (50:25):
next time in the mud you