January 14, 2025 • 50 mins
This episode centers on workplace advocacy for women's health rights, particularly around pregnancy and menopause. Legal experts Jack Tuckner and Catherine Crider discuss recent legislative changes and the importance of creating supportive environments for women experiencing these life stages.
• Discussion on the history of pregnancy discrimination law
• Overview of the Pregnant Workers Fairness Act
• Introduction to the Menopause Workers Fairness Act
• Importance of workplace culture and communication
• Real-life implications of menopausal symptoms
• Strategies for women to advocate for their rights
• The role of employers in creating inclusive policies
• Call for awareness and advocacy on women's health issues
Jack Tuckner is a Women’s Rights in the Workplace attorney and a founding partner of Tuckner, Sipser, Weinstock & Sipser, LLP, a NY-based law firm dedicated to workplace gender rights. With over 20 years of experience, Jack advocates for working women at all stages of their reproductive life cycle, from pregnancy through menopause. His practice focuses on combating sexual harassment, pregnancy discrimination, illegal gender pay disparity, sex discrimination, maternity leave matters, unlawful retaliation, and wrongful termination.
Jack has served as an advocate and commentator on women’s discrimination issues across the media spectrum, including The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, The New York Daily News, NBC’s Nightly News with Brian Williams, Good Morning America, Anderson Cooper, The Joy Behar Show, National Public Radio, CNN, Inside Edition, numerous local television and radio stations, and at civic and grass roots community meetings and seminars throughout the NY tri-state area.
Catherine Crider was admitted to the California bar in 2015. In addition to being a lawyer, Catherine is an active labor and postpartum doula helping families. When she’s not working with families one-on-one, she teaches childbirth education and postpartum classes for new parents across the United States. Prior to becoming a lawyer, Catherine worked with parents and children in a variety of roles as a licensed elementary and special educator.
Catherine also writes for websites on women’s health and parenting related topics. Materials she has produced can be found on Forbes.com, Healthline.com, and Education.com.
Website: https://womensrightsny.com/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/jacktuckner
https://www.linkedin.com/in/catherine-crider-2b5b3232
LINKS:
Website: https://www.midovia.com/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mymidovia
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/midovia
Email Us: info@midovia.com
MiDOViA is dedicated to changing the narrative about menopause by educating, raising awareness & supporting women in this stage of life, both at home and in the workplace. Visit midovia.com to learn more.
The information, including but not limited to, text, graphics, images & other material contained on this website are for informational purposes only. No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the Medovia Menopause Podcast
Business Edition, your trustedsource for insights on menopause
and midlife in the workplace.
Each episode featuresmeaningful conversations with
inspiring guests.
Tune in and enjoy the show.
Hi everyone, welcome to theMedovia Menopause Podcast
(00:21):
Business Edition.
Podcast Business Edition.
Today we are going to talkabout workplace advocacy and
policy for women's health, andwe're joined by two special
guests Jack Tuckner andKatherine Kreider.
With Tuckner, sipser, weinstockand Sipser on the show.
They're New York's leadingwomen's rights in the workplace
law firm.
(00:41):
They have represented hundredsof women and men against all
forms of unjust workplaceconduct and they have been
advocating for women's rightssince 1999.
Thank you so much for doingwhat you do.
We're looking forward to havingyou on the show today.
So maybe, to start us off,either one of you if you want to
(01:04):
jump in, catherine or Jack canyou tell us a little bit about
yourselves, give us a little bitof background and how you got
started doing what you do?
Speaker 2 (01:14):
Thank you.
Thanks for having us April.
Catherine, would you like to gofirst, yeah.
Speaker 3 (01:19):
Thank you, yeah, and thank you so much, april.
We're excited to talk with youand your listeners today.
My name is Katherine Kreider.
I was originally a teacher whorealized that my passion was a
bit more behind the scenes, inthe law and the policy side, so
I went back to law school.
When I went back to law school,I had to slightly change my
(01:40):
career a bit, so I wasn't lessonplanning at night, and in doing
that, I started teachingpreschool, which led me to
realize that I had a passion fordoula work.
Through doula work, Iultimately ended up realizing
that how I wanted to use my lawdegree was to help women in
women's health related fields,which led me to Jack, because
(02:01):
Jack's is one of the few firmsthat focuses so heavily on
women-related issues,specifically pregnancy and
menopause-related workplaceissues.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
Right.
What an interesting background.
I love hearing stories fromworking with schools, preschool
doula to now women's health in alaw firm.
So super interesting.
Thanks for doing what you do,catherine.
I'm sure we'll hear more aboutyour work in a law firm.
So super interesting.
Thanks for doing what you do,catherine.
I'm sure we'll hear more aboutyour work in just a moment.
Jack, how did you get started?
Speaker 2 (02:32):
Well, you know I'll try to cliff-snotes this a
little bit and you'll rein me inif I go too off.
But listen, april, I never, youknow I hated lawyers as much as
the next person for much of mylife.
For the same reasons.
People often say Lawyersthey're after themselves, it's
all about money, they're moreabout corporate interests, et
(02:55):
cetera, et cetera.
And I dropped out of college.
I was a psych major back in theday.
Then I dropped out to pursue anacting career and spent two
years in a conservatory and thendid the usual what young actors
do, which is 10 bar and wait ontables, et cetera.
But at some point and actuallythe exact point was in the early
(03:18):
1980s, so you'll know how longI've been around where my law
school, my alma mater, the CityUniversity of New York Law
School at Queens College, hadjust opened with a mandate law
in the service of human needs, apublic interest law school.
You know that was justdedicated to actually empowering
, you know, the underserved.
(03:38):
So it spoke to me.
I, you know I applied.
I was in the second graduatingclass.
I started out as a.
I applied.
I was in the second graduatingclass.
I started out as a publicdefender back in very difficult
times when Rudy Giuliani wasrunning New York and I was a
public defender in the Bronx,which was, you know, for those
who know the Bronx was a it was.
It was a difficult, challengingtime, but it sort of formed the
(04:01):
basis of my abilities in acourtroom, which was very
important.
And from there, once I had thefoundational boots on the ground
, competencies to effectivelyadvocate for folks, I asked
(04:23):
myself you know what's my, my,my dislike of bullies and
oppressors of all kinds?
That women, women, this was,and again, this was now.
In the 90s, women were stillfacing rampant pregnancy
discrimination, sexualharassment, gender pay disparity
, unequal pay, sexdiscrimination of all kinds on
(04:45):
every level, and it's like therewas no area of law for this.
There was no one practicingthis specifically.
So I endeavored, at thebeginning as a sole practitioner
, to open up this law firm in1998, new York City, dedicated
to women's rights in theworkplace.
So that's, you know, the basicbackground on this and, if I may
(05:08):
say, what I thought initiallywas that most of the cases would
be sexual harassment.
In fact, I was sort of marketing, if you will, to that Turns out
the largest type of cases thatI saw and still see are
pregnancy discrimination cases.
(05:30):
So that became that sort ofopened my eyes to like, wow,
this is when women are workingor have careers, jobs they want
to maintain, and then they getpregnant.
This is when things go southStill do because companies
resent it.
They know that you're going tobe out for at least three.
(05:50):
You know for three months whenyou have a baby.
They know you're going to needflexibility during your
pregnancy and you know in aprofits over people culture you
were, I believe, april in HR fora while right, and you know
that.
When we're talking about bottomline issues which American
companies typically that's theirwhole raison d'etre make money.
(06:12):
Pregnancy you know you're goingto lay people off who are
pregnant, who are coming backfrom maternity leave, so, anyway
, I spent 25 years banging myhead against the wall with
pregnancy cases, and the more Itrained other lawyers I teach
continuing legal educationseminars on how to effectively
prosecute, try pregnancy caseson behalf of employees, and so
(06:35):
that was essentially my life'swork and I was deeply in it on
every level in terms ofadvocating and being one of the
stakeholders that was pushingfor.
In New York City we had aPregnant Workers' Fairness Act
the first in the country 10years ago 11 years ago now.
We were all part of gettingthat ultimately enacted.
(06:56):
May I tell you now about?
Speaker 1 (07:00):
I wanted.
That was my next question.
I think you're going to tell mewhat that is and I would love
to hear and I know that ouraudience would love to hear as
well, because I don't think thatthe majority majority of us
understand that talk a lotBefore 1964, there was no, sex
discrimination was perfectlylegal.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
You could say I'm not hiring you because you're a
girl, perfectly legal.
And again to me, I was alive,right?
I mean it's not that long ago.
Until 1974, men had to co-signtheir wives' applications for
credit cards or loans.
Okay, so you know, this wasn'tthat long ago that all of this
(07:49):
was happening, where clear womenwere, you know, sort of
essentially second-classcitizens, to my way of thinking.
Then, in 1978, we now we got thePregnancy Discrimination Act,
which was an extension of theCivil Rights Act of 1964.
And it says you can'tdiscriminate because of
pregnancy.
But that did virtually nothing.
(08:10):
What it meant is if somebody,if an employer, said to you
we're not going to hire youbecause you're pregnant, and you
had proof of that, that wasillegal.
But when it came to things likewhat about during your
pregnancy, when you needflexibility?
What about when you need to eatat your desk to stave off
morning sickness?
What about when you need to usethe restroom more frequently or
you can't drive as much, oryou're in pain orthopedic issues
(08:32):
, you need to see your OBGYN,you need some type of
accommodations, you're movingmore slowly, you need to sit,
you need to stand.
There was no, the PregnancyDiscrimination Act didn't really
address that.
And it also didn't address andhere's kind of the clincher
there was no law that said thatyou're entitled to recover from
(08:56):
childbirth.
You were not entitled tomaternity leave, and so,
employers, unless you werecovered by the Family and
Medical Leave Act of 1978, butthat requires that you work for
a company with at least 50employees, not 15, like most of
the other federal laws.
Many women don't work forcompanies of that size, and you
(09:20):
had to have worked there a fullyear before your water broke.
Okay, so that's another reasonwhy.
So I would represent women whocompanies would say to them but
I'm sorry, when your due datecomes, and you told us when it
is, you're not here a whole year, so sorry, you don't get
maternity leave.
And the lawyers I would speakto would say, yeah, like,
(09:41):
explain to me, where is there alaw that says they're entitled
to maternity leave?
And I would not so patientlyexplain to these other lawyers
that when a woman gives birthand here's what's always so
fascinating and befuddling andand and, and you know,
outrageous to me still whenwomen give birth, according even
(10:03):
to insurance carriers thatdon't give away money, they're
disabled for at least six weeksafter a vaginal delivery, at
least eight weeks after ac-section, right and right.
So I usually, you know, 12weeks is a reasonable period to
recover from childbirth and bondwith your baby.
Minimally reasonable, yeah andso.
(10:25):
And if you don't give that, ifsomebody, if somebody broke
their leg skiing or had a heartattack, you couldn't say to them
if you're an employer, youdon't qualify for the FMLA, so
you're not entitled to recover.
It's disability discrimination.
How does that not apply topregnancy?
Well, because it's women andbecause it's pregnancy and it
seemed to be, they would call itelective.
You chose, you chose this, it'snot our problem.
(10:47):
Businesses would say, right,right.
So there was all of this trying, bringing cases, arguing,
fighting for these people.
You know we would usuallyprevail in those situations, but
it was a constant, you know,coming to employers, women had
to do with a cup in their hands,sort of begging for the
flexibility to be with child, tohave a life and a career.
(11:08):
Outrageous.
If men could get pregnant, we'dhave a 12-month fully paid
paternity leave policy, right,yeah most likely, right?
Speaker 1 (11:16):
Yeah, I remember hiding my pregnancy as long as I
could when I was in corporateyears ago, right Like 24 and 21.
But yeah, I mean.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
But isn't that outrageous?
Speaker 1 (11:27):
I didn't want to disclose that because I was
afraid that I would get fired,right.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
But that's not the way a civilized culture that
treats women equitably shouldwork.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
So if I if I may get to.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
June 27th, june 27th of 2023, I've been saying all
you know in 2024, just last year, but still you know, a year and
a half ago, finally, we enactedfederal.
You know, president Bidensigned into law the Pregnant
Workers Fairness Act.
Say it again for the people inthe back the Pregnant Workers
(12:03):
Fairness Act is a game-changingcivil rights, women's rights
legislation.
We're not going to see anotherone like it for some time, even
though Catherine and I areworking on a similar menopause
one.
Speaker 1 (12:14):
Yes, and I want to add to that too yes.
Speaker 2 (12:17):
But this was huge and this is again would not happen
today, given the issues thatwe're all presumably aware of
and what this law does now.
If you're pregnant and you workfor an employer anywhere in the
United States that employs atleast 15 people 1-5, not 5-0,
(12:38):
1-5, you are protected.
Your pregnancy itself is aprotected activity.
You're entitled to specialtreatment.
That's what it comes down toactually.
Because you're pregnant, notjust because you have
gestational diabetes orhypertension or some other
(12:58):
pregnancy-related medical issue,which used to be what you
needed.
Now it's just because you'repregnant, you are entitled to
flexibility, reasonableaccommodations.
It's the Americans withDisabilities Act specifically
for pregnancy, but pregnancyitself is not a disability and
doesn't need to be, so.
The civilized kind of thenotion behind it was not
(13:20):
biologically natural life stagesunique to women, or at least to
those who menstruate right,because whatever some trans
right um, and non-binary people,but in the main, we're talking
about cisgender women assignedfemale at birth.
Right, right, you're the onlyones going through this.
And and unlike and, by the way,when we get to menopause,
(13:43):
unlike pregnancy, all women wholive long enough go through
menopause, so that affectseveryone.
Pregnancy.
That's why companies wouldsometimes say, hey, listen.
Speaker 1 (13:52):
It's your choice.
That's right, you know, do iton your own time, don't bother
us with it, right.
Speaker 2 (13:58):
But you know, anyway, we're also, by the way, the
only nation, essentially theonly nation on the planet, that
still doesn't think it'simportant enough to pay for
maternity leave.
Maternity leave, right.
So that's how.
And we have very dismal, youknow, mortality rate, for you
know maternal deaths and infantdeaths way below what other,
(14:21):
less industrialized countriesenjoy.
But anyway.
So the Pregnant WorkersFairness Act finally allows
pregnant women during thenine-month gestational cycle.
You're entitled to flexibility,you're entitled to light duty,
you're entitled to remote work.
You're entitled to whatever youmay need.
Again, if you sit all day, youcan stand.
(14:42):
If you stand all day, you getto sit.
You need to.
Again, if you sit all day, youcan stand.
If you stand all day, you getto sit.
You need to drink, eat.
Your attire needs to change.
Obviously, you can't drive anhour and a half each way.
You're part of it because youhave to use the bathroom, for
example.
You're entitled to thatflexibility specifically because
it is just a reasonable periodof time, it's a reasonable
(15:06):
accommodation on all of theseissues which, by the way, a
sister statute passed the sameday, essentially was the PUMP
Act, which stands for ProvidingUrgent Maternal Protections for
New Mothers, and that means 9million more women now are
entitled to express milk in theworkplace for up to a year
(15:27):
postpartum.
Huge right, I mean that was.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
That is huge, because I did that in the bathroom, in
the bathroom right.
It can't be a bathroom Right.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
And it's not allowed to be a bathroom, a stall.
It has to be private, it has tohave a lock on the door.
Yeah, so we've got a lot ofgood things that happened in
this, like last piece of civilrights legislation that we've
seen, so we should enjoy it anduse it.
So everyone needs to know thatthose days of sorry, you know we
don't do that, we don't, wedon't provide that or over, and
(16:00):
that includes maternity leave,whether you're covered by the
Family and Medical Leave Act ornot.
It doesn't mean it's paid, butit does mean you're entitled to
recover from childbirth and getback to work.
No worse for wear, that'sfantastic, yeah, fantastic one
(16:26):
long, deep breath after that andsort of said you know what you
know, take a day off now, likewe're finally hit that number.
We hit it.
It was awesome.
So from there and this isaround the time I met Catherine
we started looking at well,what's so, what's next?
It's a natural progression.
Well, how about those bookendstages of the women's
reproductive life cycle?
End stages of women'sreproductive life cycle,
perimenopause and menopauseRight, same framework.
(16:48):
You read the legislative intentand the statute itself, the
Pregnant Workers' Fairness Act.
They're talking about the samethings, right.
And now it's affecting allwomen.
That's right.
Not all women.
We all know someone will saywomen will say no biggie for me,
right, I went through.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
I sailed through Exactly.
Oh, what are you talking about,right?
Speaker 2 (17:08):
And some women in you know more my generation, let's
say boomers, that were deprived,an entire generation deprived
of HRT because of that flawed2001 study.
So, but you know, just kind ofsaying, who even talks about
this.
Well, my mother's generation.
It was like menopause.
I don't think I said that wordever aloud yeah, I don't think I
(17:29):
went through it.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
You're like yes, you did.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
Yeah, right, right, well, that was just because you
didn't even allow yourself tounderstand what was happening,
or, um, because nobody wouldhave cared that's right but but
still a large segment of thepopulation goes through
significant challenging changes.
A lot of times, a lot of timespeople don't even realize.
(17:52):
Women don't realize it sort ofcreeps up on you.
It comes on early rightPerimenopause In your 30s you
could still experience it.
And doctors, historically today, poo-poo it, misdiagn.
They have no training, they sayit's in your head, they
prescribe psychotropic meds.
So it's a.
It's a.
(18:12):
It's sort of a challengingbattle but on all the levels and
all the many symptoms, some youknow you just don't it starts
with, just don't feel likeyourself right, but after that
there's a lot of, there'snumerous.
All the major bodily functionscan be involved, which we'll get
to, because this is whymenopausal and perimenopausal
women today still haveprotections in the workplace,
which we'll get to.
But what we've been talkingabout and what Catherine and I
(18:34):
then drafted, based on thePregnant Workers Fairness Act,
we drafted a menopause workersfairness act bill.
That, um, we you know some ofour colleagues, we used to post
these on LinkedIn constantlySome other colleagues got
interested.
We ended up presenting thisbill at least the outline of
(18:55):
what the Menopause Fairness Actbill should be to Congress this
past July, at a midlife women'sand menopause health symposium,
a couple of DemocraticCongresswomen became interested
in it.
We've been working then sincethen, until the election, let's
say on this bill with the UnitedStates Equal Employment
(19:16):
Opportunity Commission, withselect OBGYNs that were part of
our process, and we've beenhashing out the bill that was
going to be presented by thisone Democratic congresswoman who
we're not even now permitted toname her because it's sort of
it has stalled.
Ok, because for obvious reasons, because it ain't never going
to pass right now, in the nextfour years, but I'm still we're
(19:39):
going to keep it alive as muchas possible, but that's what
that's coming eventually if wesurvive as a democracy, and
that's really what would beneeded, just like the Pregnant
Workers' Fandice Act, to finallysay you know what menopause
itself isn't a disability either.
It's a natural biological lifestage change.
(20:02):
And you say you know, reeseWitherspoon or fanning herself
on camera or people saying like,this is a real thing and we
shouldn't be stigmatized andtaboo as all women's from menses
(20:35):
to menopause.
Speaker 1 (20:36):
It's always stigmatized and taboo Like it's
icky.
Don't talk about it with us,it's not our problem, it's your
problem.
Yeah, but it's okay, go ahead.
There are several other reasonswhy, but awareness is key.
And to take that a step further, you know, when we experience
those symptoms and when werecognize that it's menopause,
there's still a lot of silencein the workplace.
(20:57):
There's still a lot of fearthat we're going to disclose
that we're going throughmenopause, we're going to be
discriminated against.
And if we know that, theMenopause Fair Workers Act, am I
saying that right?
Speaker 2 (21:13):
Menopause Fairness Workers Act.
Okay, menopause WorkersFairness Act.
Speaker 1 (21:18):
I'm sorry, it's a mouthful, isn't it?
If we know that that's notgoing to pass in the next four
years, tell me if I am a womanand I'm experiencing menopause,
should I be concerned about that?
And and if not, how am I stillprotected?
Speaker 2 (21:35):
Okay, great question.
And here's where kind of therubber meets the road.
And I find, in posting aboutthis on TikTok and LinkedIn for
the last two years, that no oneelse really want lawyers,
particularly no one acknowledgesit.
It's like you know what, untilthis becomes something, jack,
you keep, jack, catherine, youkeep doing what you do, but
we're waiting on the sidelinesfor this.
(21:56):
But in the meantime, here's thedrum we keep banging because
and no one can contest this,this is true the symptoms of
perimenopause and menopauseoften actually may I lead into
this?
You could say no, but I wasgoing to read a brief direct
message.
Speaker 3 (22:11):
I got, I get a direct message on LinkedIn from a
person.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
I'm reading this, with her permission.
I'm not naming her.
Here's what it says Hi Jack,your post about perimenopause in
the workplace resonates andraises questions about what I
have been experiencing in myworkplace.
I am 49 and recently able toput the puzzle pieces together
that I have been coping withperimenopause symptoms
misdiagnosed as depression lastMay to June.
(22:40):
Meanwhile, I have been placedon a PIP, a performance
improvement plan at work, for myinability to quote, manage
tasks, unquote, which I canfirmly now say is a result of my
symptoms.
I have been successful in mycareer, receiving promotions and
stellar reviews.
This is the first time in mycareer mention of and being
(23:02):
placed on a PIP came up.
Wow, okay, so this is whathappens.
Her younger, pisher malemanager is holding her to
account for the insomnia thatshe's been suffering.
She was experiencing emotionalextremes, rage.
She didn't know what was goingon.
(23:22):
That's why they were saying itwas depression.
It was this kind of whirlwindof hormonal activity or
diminishment of it, and shedidn't know what was going on
and she still hadn't evenconsulted a menopause aware
practitioner to get a clue.
But a PIP for those of you whodon't know, a performance
improvement plan is designed tomanage you out of your job,
(23:46):
right, so that's not good to beat that place.
This is your economic lifeline,your job right.
Speaker 1 (23:51):
It's the documentation right that
organizations need to start.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (23:56):
Those that don't understand Exactly.
Speaker 2 (23:58):
But it is a setup to that.
Most people don't recover fromPIPS because it's very
subjective anyway and theyalmost don't expect you to,
because how demoralizing is itto get that so but here's the
point, to answer your questiondirectly and what I told her
when we consulted the symptomsthat she was going through the
(24:19):
symptoms that women go throughwhen they affect and this is
just the language from theAmericans with Disabilities Act
Amendments Act of 2008, whenthose symptoms substantially
affect or impair a major lifeactivity sleeping, thinking,
walking, working you know,that's like everything eating
(24:43):
you're already covered by theAmericans with Disabilities Act
and entitled from your employerto an interactive process,
meaning a conversation aboutwhat you need to help you to
stay gainfully employed, orsymptoms that affect major
bodily functions.
one that's always affected isthe endocrine system, the
(25:06):
diminishment of endogenoushormones you know what's going
on the wild fluctuations thatare freaking people out, and all
of it.
The loss of libido, the loss ofit affects every bodily, major
bodily function and organ.
When you have that from anaturopath, an OBGYN, any type
(25:26):
of aware practitioner it doesn'thave to be an MD and you say to
your employer I'm going throughthis, I need this flexibility.
These are bona fide issues thatare documented.
Your employer cannot hoopoo it.
They can't dismiss it.
They might want to, they mighttry, but they can't because of
(25:47):
the definition I just gave.
It's black and white.
Under the ADA there's nodistinction.
For if it's, you know, natural,if it's not, you know people
think well, but you're notreally sick, it's not a
disability, right, it's natural,yeah, but the symptoms are
covered, right, that might bevisible, but they're covered by
the ADA.
So I'm entitled to a reasonableaccommodation unless you can
(26:11):
prove that.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
what I need, like a brief menopause absence, you
know, a change in ventilationair conditioning, a fan or a
break to go to the bathroom or abreak.
Change my pads Right.
Speaker 2 (26:25):
Change in my clothing for those who have to wear hot
uniforms, right the variousfairly modest changes.
Maybe remote work.
When you're going through adifficult period in a culture
right now that does a lot ofremote work, the company would
have to say oh no, no, no, no,we can't do that.
And we won't do that becauseit's an undue hardship on our
business.
We can't afford it.
It's going to put us on.
(26:54):
That's a tough road for thecompany to hoe.
It's difficult.
And by requesting it and here'swhat people need to know by
requesting this need for anaccommodation, the requests
itself are considered protectedactivity under our civil rights
law.
So you can't be retaliatedagainst If they say we're going
to make it worse on you just byhaving the audacity to request
that.
That's illegal.
Now we also have the problem ofwomen will often say do I
(27:18):
really want to raise theseissues?
It's like none of theirfreaking business.
Speaker 1 (27:21):
Right, we hear that, or I'm afraid they're going to.
Speaker 2 (27:24):
Anyway, I don't want to be the one, or I'm afraid
they're going to anyway, I don'twant to be the one, I don't
want to be the one.
Well, if you don't want to be,I know.
But the problem is like this DMI read, and that story didn't
end well, by the way.
So the point is because shesort of chose, she chose not to
raise those issues.
Speaker 1 (27:41):
So it ended up, and you know that happens, one in 10
, one in 10 women will leave theworkforce voluntarily to not
have to walk down this road.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
That's a big number.
Self-exiling, that's right,right or get, ultimately, you
know, canned Right.
So it's a huge issue.
So this is what's empoweringabout it.
But, by the way, additionally,additionally, beside the
disability component, it's onlyhappening to women component.
It's only happening to women.
And again, I'll say, yes, ithappens to you know trans men
(28:10):
and you know some non-binaryindividuals and such, but in the
main, in the vastly in the main, cisgender women, assigned
female at birth, are the cohortright, and so it's women.
It's not men, it's women and ithas nothing to do with, you
know, factional preferences orsexual orientation, it's just
your sex.
Women are dealing with this.
(28:32):
So it's a sex-based, it'scovered under sex discrimination
laws.
You have to give me this.
This is a sex-based issue andthe clincher, the Holy Trinity
of this is that for the mostpart can't happen earlier, but
women are typically 40 plus and40 is the age, coincidentally,
(28:52):
in our culture, under the AgeDiscrimination and Employment
Act, that we're protected fromage-based discrimination.
So you have this intersectionalsex plus claim, sex, age,
disability, these impairmentsthat are temporary, natural,
that entitle us to thatinteractive process, that
cooperative dialogue and byraising the issues, if you've
(29:14):
got man, you know, dare I callit the courage to be that first
person.
But listen, if you think,especially if you think you're
going to be managed out the door, if you think that it's not
going well, you're just going toget fired like everybody else
does, and not get a dime byraising these issues.
If the marriage can't be saved,so to speak, if you're going to
(29:36):
have to separate, that's howyou can set yourself up to
command severance right.
That's how you can hold themaccountable and that's what
makes the world go round.
By the way, and all thatdocumentation, documentation,
documentation about whatever.
Because, because, April, let'sface the reality here.
In our corporate culture,Ninety percent of us plus are at
(30:00):
will employees.
If I may go into the slightside, Right and at will
employees to your listeners whodon know means you don't have a
contract of employment.
That virtually no one these dayscan command.
You don't have a contract.
You have an offer letter maybe.
You don't have a contract.
And if you have what looks likea contract or an employment
agreement, it says right in ityou're an at-will employee.
(30:20):
That means you can be fired atany time for any reason or no
reason at all, and you can quitwhenever you want.
So we don't have any.
We have one right.
We have one right in employmentin the United States.
That one right is the right notto be treated differently
because of something about usthat we can't change.
(30:41):
Typically right, and it hasmany subparts.
This one right Race, color, age, religion, ethnicity, national
origin, sex.
Sex includes pregnancy, unequalpay, you know, sexual
harassment, et cetera, failureto promote women but it's still
one right.
So what people have tounderstand is if, as a woman of
(31:02):
color, I'm just going to, nomatter what it is, because white
privilege, male privilege, arethings in our culture.
I vouch for that.
We know that.
So if you're experiencingdisparate treatment another way
of saying discrimination in yourworkplace, microaggressions
because you're black, over 40,and, again specific to our
(31:24):
conversation, because you're awoman of a certain age or, as my
colleague Lauren Sheeran coined, the woman of a certain stage,
like the bookend stages,perimenopause or menopause and
you need some TLC from youremployer, you really should ask
for it Because, first of all,sometimes they do surprise us.
(31:47):
These days, it is a trendingtopic.
Some companies are trying.
Speaker 1 (31:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
So, if you do it, you might get the hookup.
And, and top it all off, yourinvocation, your requests, in
and of themselves, again, arethoroughly protected and maybe,
and listen, this is what makes,this is how laws get, this is
what this is how it all happens,we have to get a critical mass
of interest people demanding itright.
Speaker 1 (32:13):
The more people that speak up right, the more
awareness, the more we requestit.
We had a question.
The M Factor film is beingshown across the country right
now.
We're on a panel and someonesaid how do we bring workplace
training and menopause into ourorganization?
Ask, you have to speak up andget other people to ask, because
(32:37):
it's the masses that are goingto change the movement right.
Speaker 2 (32:42):
Right, well, that's what happened?
With the civil rights movement.
That's what happened with thewomen's rights movement in the
70s, so you know it is all of apiece and listen in other places
.
I'm doing a podcast with LaurenSheeran, who I just mentioned,
who's a an English, a Britishbased menopause coach and
trainer and expert, but inEngland much different, much
(33:08):
better, and some other kindsAustralia way ahead of us,
everybody's way ahead of us.
Speaker 1 (33:14):
And hopefully I mean the movement is changing right.
There is change.
We work with wonderfulorganizations who are really
trying to fold in menopause,support menopause policy, and
there are organizations that aredoing a great job.
There's a lot of work to bedone, for sure.
That being said, are therespecific industries that you're
(33:39):
working with that or you see aredoing a better job than others
in supporting women in thisstage of life?
Speaker 2 (33:48):
I don't know the answer to that question.
I'm not at that, you know.
I'm simply the employee rightsperson.
Speaker 1 (33:54):
You're not seeing trends, though I'm not seeing a
trend?
Speaker 2 (33:57):
I mean, I'm sure there's an answer to that, I
just don't know it, so I can'ttell you.
I can tell you where maybe youwould think it was in in
healthcare or for nurses andthat I could tell you it's not.
You know it's, so I don't knowwhich.
I think it's, perhaps, unless,catherine, you got a sense of
this.
I think it's more companyspecific than it is industry
specific.
I don't know that, you knowthey're just.
(34:19):
There are companies that aretrying to do it, if only for the
reason not because they're such, you know, bleeding heart
liberals and progressives andcare about women so much as they
care about their own bottomline.
And it's true, we lose billionsof lose billions of dollars to
the loss of talent.
When you talk about women atthe top of their game, at the
top of their careers, beingsidelined for all of this
(34:40):
mishigas over nothing, becausewe won't support them, I mean
that's the, that's the.
You know, that's the.
That's the rub.
We don't support women, wedon't.
When it comes to health research, even women are.
You know, we don't, we don'ttest, we don't test our
medications on women.
It's mostly for men.
It's really, you know, it'sjust, it's we, we all, should be
(35:00):
outraged much of the time.
I mean look.
I mean again reproductiverights in general.
I mean look what we're.
Look where we are now, 50 yearson after Roe v Wade.
We're back to and we're back to.
We're going back 50 years andthe current.
(35:22):
There's a bill pending rightnow that was presented, authored
by Vice President-elect JDVance, called Dismantle DEI Act.
Oh yes, that's just all abouttaking us back to the good old
days of women in the kitchen andpeople of color in the back of
the bus.
Speaker 1 (35:38):
Frankly, yeah, yeah.
It's a shame to see the DEIinitiatives being ditched, with
organizations for sure If I'm anorganization listening to this
podcast.
Is there a takeaway here thateither one of you would like to
share?
Jack, catherine, you'vementioned so many.
(35:59):
I mean, there is a financialbenefit to supporting women.
It's the right thing to do.
It's the legal thing to do.
What would you say to you knowXYZ organization, if I'm tuning
into this, what is that?
Speaker 2 (36:14):
I get that if it was, if it were Catherine and I, and
if we were, if we were theco-senior VPs of human resource
and had the authority in anorganization, or or even if I'm
just a CEO of an organization, Isay you know what?
My daughter raised this issue,my wife I.
I heard something, I watchedsomething, again assuming a
non-sociopathic CEO.
I want to let's be the modelfor this.
(36:38):
It's not like we're doinggiveaways here.
Let's be the company that we'regetting written up as the most
pro you know sort of pro-womenagenda company.
For our own, we want to be ableto recruit the best senior
talent and we want to be knownas forget about the terms that
(36:59):
are now not in vogue like DEI.
We just want to be known thatwe promote, you know, women in
leadership, because that'sthat's mostly my client base
anyway.
Women in leadership.
We promote, we retain, weencourage, we nurture, and it's
not my, we're not asking formuch, it's not doing much.
(37:20):
So I would want to do thatbecause I know that this is
something that's great for ourPR and our bottom line.
So why don't we be the first todo it?
What would it take?
It seems to be the same winds ofyou know, kind of the this
tension, which is why I thinklawyers no matter, no, lawyers
(37:41):
never comment on this when Italk about it.
We're writing a white paper onthis, we've been posting about
it.
I have another LinkedIn postgoing up tomorrow on the
Menopause fairness act and noone ever is willing to say other
than yeah, that sounds right.
I mean, the ADA is right,because no one wants to advance
that notion until they sort ofhave to.
(38:02):
But that's out that to me.
I just I don't, I don't get it.
So, to answer the question,let's see one progressive
thought leader person say I wantto take our company in this
direction so that we'll be onthe front page of whatever
publication and let's start atrend because it's good for us,
(38:23):
it's good for business and it'sgood for our for women 100%,
yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:29):
And the question is, the real question is why aren't
we doing it Right?
It's it is.
The cost to implement programslike this for an organization we
say this time and time again isminimal, minimal, and the
reward on the other side, thatreturn on investment, is huge,
(38:49):
huge, wouldn't it be great?
I mean perfect world, and Ihave my best cheerleaders here,
I know so your answer, of course, is gonna be yes, but I'll ask
it anyway.
But wouldn't it be wonderful ifevery organization in the US
was what we call menopausefriendly, and we don't use that
term lightly.
It's meaningful, wouldn't thatbe wonderful?
(39:11):
And what would that look like?
It's meaningful, wouldn't thatbe wonderful?
And what would that look like?
It would be a much differentexperience for so many people.
Speaker 3 (39:17):
Well, catherine, what do you?
Speaker 1 (39:19):
have to say.
Speaker 3 (39:21):
I was just going to say that the frameworks are
actually already there inorganizations, and that's what I
was actually going to point outto your last question is that
the extension that the Menopauseworkers fairness act makes to
the pregnancy act, yourorganization already has
everything you need to do themenopause workers fairness act
already, so you're not actuallycreating anything new in your
(39:45):
organization that isn't alreadythere.
So what I mean by that is youare already legally bound.
Your organization alreadylegally has in place that when
someone comes to your HR or yourCEO or whoever the high ranking
official in management might bewithin your corporation, that
you already know how to haveconversations around finding
(40:09):
reasonable accommodations.
And so, because that's alreadyestablished, there's, honestly,
no structural changes, that hugestructural changes you need to
be making.
It's merely creating a safeenvironment where workers feel
comfortable expressing that theyare going through this stage of
life and that reasonableaccommodations are therefore
(40:32):
something they need and thatthey're legally required to get.
So, honestly, companies don'thave to change that much.
It's really just about making asafe space and then extending
the same reasonableaccommodations you would to any
other employees.
Something that people findreally interesting is that when
we talk about reasonableaccommodations for menopause.
(40:54):
A piece of advice that Jack andI frequently give is that look
at your coworkers and whatreasonable accommodations
they're already getting forother disabilities in your
workplace.
So Jack and I aren't tellingwomen that just because you get
menopause, you should go to yourworkers and ask for things that
no one else in your workplaceis getting or that are, you know
(41:15):
, way off the given track.
Literally, it's just going toyour employer and saying, hey, I
noticed that so-and-so is ableto do this.
I also need that accommodation.
How can we make that happen?
So all the frameworks arealready there and it's really
not that big of an ask.
So when you say what would theworld look like if every
(41:37):
organization was menopause aware, was more open to menopause
accommodations, well the answeris it probably wouldn't look
that different because thestructural supports are there.
It's just more people would bereceiving those structural yeah,
it's such a good point.
Speaker 1 (41:52):
Yes, such a good point.
Catherine, thank you so muchfor bringing that up.
Yeah, we're not reinventing thewheel.
That's brilliant, and it'sactually I don't know how we top
that.
I really don't know how we topthat, so it's a great way to end
.
I'm going to ask one morequestion before we sign off.
(42:13):
Is there anything else that youwould like our listeners to
know, that you would like toshare, that we haven't talked
about today?
Speaker 3 (42:25):
So my caution that I always like to throw out there
to everyone is don't go making aunilateral decision to change
your job environment withouttalking to your employer and
employers.
Similarly, it's a good idea tocheck in with your employees
about what their needs are.
This legislation everythingJack was talking about today is
(42:48):
really based on the idea that wewant employers and employees to
be having conversations,because when you have those
conversations, you don't needJack and I because you're
working things out with eachother.
So my big advice is to do notmake unilateral decisions.
Try to work within frameworksof organizations and then
sometimes, yes, you do need alittle outside support, because
(43:10):
not everyone is going to bewilling to work with everyone
else.
But a great first place is tocome to the table from a place
of I believe my employer wantsto work with me.
I believe my employee wants todo a good job.
How do we enable everyone to dothat?
And then hopefully, jack and Iwon't have as much of a job
anymore.
Speaker 2 (43:28):
Yeah, and the one thing, april, that's also
brilliant, catherine, because Iwould add to that to answer your
question about, like one otherthing yeah, yeah, you raise
these issues because you're sortof drowning alone and you see
that your employer doesn't knowthey don't know what you don't
(43:55):
tell them and they're going tohold you accountable for not
sleeping at night and showing updazed.
So when you request theseaccommodations, as I mentioned,
it's considered protectedactivity because you're saying
as a woman, as a woman who'spotentially is over 40, as a
woman dealing with thesedisabling issues as a result of
menopause, and they do affectmajor life activities or major
(44:18):
bodily functions.
If it can't be worked out,that's when you may need, you
know, a Catherine or I behindthe scenes to help you get out
of there, but holding themaccountable and get enough money
to hold you over to the nextjob, because by saying I believe
I'm being essentially treateddifferently as a woman in this
(44:40):
life stage, with these disablingissues.
And then let's say they fire youon the heels of that.
That is called something in ourworld.
That's called retaliatorydischarge.
If there's an adverseemployment action, like a firing
or a demotion, on the heels ofa protected request for help
because of a sex, age ordisability-based issue, that's
(45:06):
considered retaliatory.
If they just say sorry, no soupfor you, sister, and then they
fire you.
So there are sometimes that'sthe way that we can hold Goliath
to account with our littleslingshot.
The ping in the head to Goliathbecause they have the law on
their side, they have moreresources than we do is saying
(45:27):
you know what game on You'retreating me differently.
This is discriminatory andretaliatory.
Now you know what?
I have a claim.
These are the claims I'mlooking to bring on behalf of
people.
We have, you know, but they'revery slow in coming and
eventually there's going to be awave of them, like there were
with pregnancy.
We're going to have a law but,like everything else, when it
comes to women, it's likepulling teeth.
(45:48):
And you ask why?
Because it's women, because welive in a patriarchy full stop.
Speaker 1 (45:55):
I agree and I'm so glad that you both mentioned
those last key takeaways,catherine, yeah, you're
absolutely correct, making thoseunilateral decisions on your
own, without having thoseconversations with your
employers so important torecognize, those conversations
with your employers so importantto recognize.
(46:15):
And then to your point, jackyou know employers and managers
don't know what they don't know,especially if we have a male
who hasn't been around females,who doesn't know about menopause
.
Again, it kind of comes back tothat awareness and how
important that is they don'tknow what they don't know.
So if you don't speak up andyou don't mention that, you
might be suffering from XYZ.
That's when your performanceimprovement plan begins, right,
(46:37):
I had a personal situation withsomeone very close to me that
had an employee that was goingthrough perimenopause, who just
wasn't herself.
And you know that was theconversation.
I think I'm going to have tostart making notes, right, I'm
going to have to startdocumenting.
And it was, it was.
You know, that was theconversation.
I think I'm gonna have to start, uh, making notes, right, I'm
gonna have to start documenting.
And and it was, it was.
You know.
The next thing, uh, in theconversation was well, do you
(47:01):
think you know how old is thisperson?
Do you think that it might bemenopause or perimenopause?
Yeah, no clue, right?
Um, and this is someone that isis very close to me, that had
had, has had conversations forthe past decade about menstrual
health and sexual reproductivehealth at the dinner table.
So, you know, if if you have asituation like that and someone
(47:24):
that isn't aware of menopause,we have a lot of work to do
there as well.
But those are, those are reallyimportant takeaways.
If we have listeners that needassistance, how might they find
you and are there otherorganizations that they might be
able to reach out to?
Speaker 2 (47:44):
Yes, well, first of all, for us, the shorthand for
the firm is Tuckner, sipser,weinstock and Sipser is the
longer hand.
We're based in Manhattan, inNew York City.
We have another office upstateNew York.
Catherine holds down the fortfor us.
In California we also, butwe're not, you know, the only
(48:07):
game in town these days.
If you're in another state,it's always best.
It's always best, I mean, youcan.
Certainly.
I've represented women in 22states so far.
It's not like we can't, butit's generally best to seek a
lawyer in your jurisdiction sothey could go to court for you.
I'm licensed in New York andConnecticut, california, that
you know.
We don't cover all the groundand there is an organization
(48:30):
called the National EmploymentLawyers Association based in San
Francisco, and there areaffiliates in every state.
Essentially, you could justfind a plaintiff side, an
employee rights, not amanagement lawyer, employment
lawyer.
You know, somebody experienced.
It's also easy to kind ofGoogle these days, but you can
find us either calling us, youknow, at our 212 number, or you
(48:54):
can email us at info atwomensrightsnycom I don't know
if and you can find Catherineand I on LinkedIn.
I'm at Jack Tuckner, catherineKreider, dm email call.
Speaker 1 (49:11):
There's no excuse, right?
You can get ahold of us and youpost a lot on LinkedIn, so I
just want to shout out there aswell, connecting with LinkedIn.
I'm going to do that as soon aswe're done today so that we can
follow you and your whitepapers and this menopause
support and advocacy that wemight be able to get involved
with.
Thank you so much for being onthe show today sharing your
(49:34):
expertise and your passion.
I know I speak for everyone outthere who's going through
menopause and the menopausejourney right now.
Thank you, we appreciate thework that you're doing.
Speaker 2 (49:46):
Lovely to talk to you my pleasure, thank you.
Speaker 3 (49:48):
Thanks for your work, April.
Speaker 2 (49:50):
Of course.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (49:53):
Thank you for listening to the Medovia
Menopause Podcast.
If you enjoyed today's show,please give it a thumbs up.
Subscribe for future episodes,leave a review and share this
episode with a friend.
Medovia is out to change thenarrative.
Learn more at Medoviacom.
That's M-I-D-O-V-I-A dot com.
Welcome to the Medovia Menopause Podcast
Business Edition, your trustedsource for insights on menopause
and midlife in the workplace.
Each episode featuresmeaningful conversations with
inspiring guests.
Tune in and enjoy the show.
Hi everyone, welcome to theMedovia Menopause Podcast
(00:21):
Business Edition.
Podcast Business Edition.
Today we are going to talkabout workplace advocacy and
policy for women's health, andwe're joined by two special
guests Jack Tuckner andKatherine Kreider.
With Tuckner, sipser, weinstockand Sipser on the show.
They're New York's leadingwomen's rights in the workplace
law firm.
(00:41):
They have represented hundredsof women and men against all
forms of unjust workplaceconduct and they have been
advocating for women's rightssince 1999.
Thank you so much for doingwhat you do.
We're looking forward to havingyou on the show today.
So maybe, to start us off,either one of you if you want to
(01:04):
jump in, catherine or Jack canyou tell us a little bit about
yourselves, give us a little bitof background and how you got
started doing what you do?
Speaker 2 (01:14):
Thank you.
Thanks for having us April.
Catherine, would you like to gofirst, yeah.
Speaker 3 (01:19):
Thank you, yeah, and thank you so much, april.
We're excited to talk with youand your listeners today.
My name is Katherine Kreider.
I was originally a teacher whorealized that my passion was a
bit more behind the scenes, inthe law and the policy side, so
I went back to law school.
When I went back to law school,I had to slightly change my
(01:40):
career a bit, so I wasn't lessonplanning at night, and in doing
that, I started teachingpreschool, which led me to
realize that I had a passion fordoula work.
Through doula work, Iultimately ended up realizing
that how I wanted to use my lawdegree was to help women in
women's health related fields,which led me to Jack, because
(02:01):
Jack's is one of the few firmsthat focuses so heavily on
women-related issues,specifically pregnancy and
menopause-related workplaceissues.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
Right.
What an interesting background.
I love hearing stories fromworking with schools, preschool
doula to now women's health in alaw firm.
So super interesting.
Thanks for doing what you do,catherine.
I'm sure we'll hear more aboutyour work in a law firm.
So super interesting.
Thanks for doing what you do,catherine.
I'm sure we'll hear more aboutyour work in just a moment.
Jack, how did you get started?
Speaker 2 (02:32):
Well, you know I'll try to cliff-snotes this a
little bit and you'll rein me inif I go too off.
But listen, april, I never, youknow I hated lawyers as much as
the next person for much of mylife.
For the same reasons.
People often say Lawyersthey're after themselves, it's
all about money, they're moreabout corporate interests, et
(02:55):
cetera, et cetera.
And I dropped out of college.
I was a psych major back in theday.
Then I dropped out to pursue anacting career and spent two
years in a conservatory and thendid the usual what young actors
do, which is 10 bar and wait ontables, et cetera.
But at some point and actuallythe exact point was in the early
(03:18):
1980s, so you'll know how longI've been around where my law
school, my alma mater, the CityUniversity of New York Law
School at Queens College, hadjust opened with a mandate law
in the service of human needs, apublic interest law school.
You know that was justdedicated to actually empowering
, you know, the underserved.
(03:38):
So it spoke to me.
I, you know I applied.
I was in the second graduatingclass.
I started out as a.
I applied.
I was in the second graduatingclass.
I started out as a publicdefender back in very difficult
times when Rudy Giuliani wasrunning New York and I was a
public defender in the Bronx,which was, you know, for those
who know the Bronx was a it was.
It was a difficult, challengingtime, but it sort of formed the
(04:01):
basis of my abilities in acourtroom, which was very
important.
And from there, once I had thefoundational boots on the ground
, competencies to effectivelyadvocate for folks, I asked
(04:23):
myself you know what's my, my,my dislike of bullies and
oppressors of all kinds?
That women, women, this was,and again, this was now.
In the 90s, women were stillfacing rampant pregnancy
discrimination, sexualharassment, gender pay disparity
, unequal pay, sexdiscrimination of all kinds on
(04:45):
every level, and it's like therewas no area of law for this.
There was no one practicingthis specifically.
So I endeavored, at thebeginning as a sole practitioner
, to open up this law firm in1998, new York City, dedicated
to women's rights in theworkplace.
So that's, you know, the basicbackground on this and, if I may
(05:08):
say, what I thought initiallywas that most of the cases would
be sexual harassment.
In fact, I was sort of marketing, if you will, to that Turns out
the largest type of cases thatI saw and still see are
pregnancy discrimination cases.
(05:30):
So that became that sort ofopened my eyes to like, wow,
this is when women are workingor have careers, jobs they want
to maintain, and then they getpregnant.
This is when things go southStill do because companies
resent it.
They know that you're going tobe out for at least three.
(05:50):
You know for three months whenyou have a baby.
They know you're going to needflexibility during your
pregnancy and you know in aprofits over people culture you
were, I believe, april in HR fora while right, and you know
that.
When we're talking about bottomline issues which American
companies typically that's theirwhole raison d'etre make money.
(06:12):
Pregnancy you know you're goingto lay people off who are
pregnant, who are coming backfrom maternity leave, so, anyway
, I spent 25 years banging myhead against the wall with
pregnancy cases, and the more Itrained other lawyers I teach
continuing legal educationseminars on how to effectively
prosecute, try pregnancy caseson behalf of employees, and so
(06:35):
that was essentially my life'swork and I was deeply in it on
every level in terms ofadvocating and being one of the
stakeholders that was pushingfor.
In New York City we had aPregnant Workers' Fairness Act
the first in the country 10years ago 11 years ago now.
We were all part of gettingthat ultimately enacted.
(06:56):
May I tell you now about?
Speaker 1 (07:00):
I wanted.
That was my next question.
I think you're going to tell mewhat that is and I would love
to hear and I know that ouraudience would love to hear as
well, because I don't think thatthe majority majority of us
understand that talk a lotBefore 1964, there was no, sex
discrimination was perfectlylegal.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
You could say I'm not hiring you because you're a
girl, perfectly legal.
And again to me, I was alive,right?
I mean it's not that long ago.
Until 1974, men had to co-signtheir wives' applications for
credit cards or loans.
Okay, so you know, this wasn'tthat long ago that all of this
(07:49):
was happening, where clear womenwere, you know, sort of
essentially second-classcitizens, to my way of thinking.
Then, in 1978, we now we got thePregnancy Discrimination Act,
which was an extension of theCivil Rights Act of 1964.
And it says you can'tdiscriminate because of
pregnancy.
But that did virtually nothing.
(08:10):
What it meant is if somebody,if an employer, said to you
we're not going to hire youbecause you're pregnant, and you
had proof of that, that wasillegal.
But when it came to things likewhat about during your
pregnancy, when you needflexibility?
What about when you need to eatat your desk to stave off
morning sickness?
What about when you need to usethe restroom more frequently or
you can't drive as much, oryou're in pain orthopedic issues
(08:32):
, you need to see your OBGYN,you need some type of
accommodations, you're movingmore slowly, you need to sit,
you need to stand.
There was no, the PregnancyDiscrimination Act didn't really
address that.
And it also didn't address andhere's kind of the clincher
there was no law that said thatyou're entitled to recover from
(08:56):
childbirth.
You were not entitled tomaternity leave, and so,
employers, unless you werecovered by the Family and
Medical Leave Act of 1978, butthat requires that you work for
a company with at least 50employees, not 15, like most of
the other federal laws.
Many women don't work forcompanies of that size, and you
(09:20):
had to have worked there a fullyear before your water broke.
Okay, so that's another reasonwhy.
So I would represent women whocompanies would say to them but
I'm sorry, when your due datecomes, and you told us when it
is, you're not here a whole year, so sorry, you don't get
maternity leave.
And the lawyers I would speakto would say, yeah, like,
(09:41):
explain to me, where is there alaw that says they're entitled
to maternity leave?
And I would not so patientlyexplain to these other lawyers
that when a woman gives birthand here's what's always so
fascinating and befuddling andand and, and you know,
outrageous to me still whenwomen give birth, according even
(10:03):
to insurance carriers thatdon't give away money, they're
disabled for at least six weeksafter a vaginal delivery, at
least eight weeks after ac-section, right and right.
So I usually, you know, 12weeks is a reasonable period to
recover from childbirth and bondwith your baby.
Minimally reasonable, yeah andso.
(10:25):
And if you don't give that, ifsomebody, if somebody broke
their leg skiing or had a heartattack, you couldn't say to them
if you're an employer, youdon't qualify for the FMLA, so
you're not entitled to recover.
It's disability discrimination.
How does that not apply topregnancy?
Well, because it's women andbecause it's pregnancy and it
seemed to be, they would call itelective.
You chose, you chose this, it'snot our problem.
(10:47):
Businesses would say, right,right.
So there was all of this trying, bringing cases, arguing,
fighting for these people.
You know we would usuallyprevail in those situations, but
it was a constant, you know,coming to employers, women had
to do with a cup in their hands,sort of begging for the
flexibility to be with child, tohave a life and a career.
(11:08):
Outrageous.
If men could get pregnant, we'dhave a 12-month fully paid
paternity leave policy, right,yeah most likely, right?
Speaker 1 (11:16):
Yeah, I remember hiding my pregnancy as long as I
could when I was in corporateyears ago, right Like 24 and 21.
But yeah, I mean.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
But isn't that outrageous?
Speaker 1 (11:27):
I didn't want to disclose that because I was
afraid that I would get fired,right.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
But that's not the way a civilized culture that
treats women equitably shouldwork.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
So if I if I may get to.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
June 27th, june 27th of 2023, I've been saying all
you know in 2024, just last year, but still you know, a year and
a half ago, finally, we enactedfederal.
You know, president Bidensigned into law the Pregnant
Workers Fairness Act.
Say it again for the people inthe back the Pregnant Workers
(12:03):
Fairness Act is a game-changingcivil rights, women's rights
legislation.
We're not going to see anotherone like it for some time, even
though Catherine and I areworking on a similar menopause
one.
Speaker 1 (12:14):
Yes, and I want to add to that too yes.
Speaker 2 (12:17):
But this was huge and this is again would not happen
today, given the issues thatwe're all presumably aware of
and what this law does now.
If you're pregnant and you workfor an employer anywhere in the
United States that employs atleast 15 people 1-5, not 5-0,
(12:38):
1-5, you are protected.
Your pregnancy itself is aprotected activity.
You're entitled to specialtreatment.
That's what it comes down toactually.
Because you're pregnant, notjust because you have
gestational diabetes orhypertension or some other
(12:58):
pregnancy-related medical issue,which used to be what you
needed.
Now it's just because you'repregnant, you are entitled to
flexibility, reasonableaccommodations.
It's the Americans withDisabilities Act specifically
for pregnancy, but pregnancyitself is not a disability and
doesn't need to be, so.
The civilized kind of thenotion behind it was not
(13:20):
biologically natural life stagesunique to women, or at least to
those who menstruate right,because whatever some trans
right um, and non-binary people,but in the main, we're talking
about cisgender women assignedfemale at birth.
Right, right, you're the onlyones going through this.
And and unlike and, by the way,when we get to menopause,
(13:43):
unlike pregnancy, all women wholive long enough go through
menopause, so that affectseveryone.
Pregnancy.
That's why companies wouldsometimes say, hey, listen.
Speaker 1 (13:52):
It's your choice.
That's right, you know, do iton your own time, don't bother
us with it, right.
Speaker 2 (13:58):
But you know, anyway, we're also, by the way, the
only nation, essentially theonly nation on the planet, that
still doesn't think it'simportant enough to pay for
maternity leave.
Maternity leave, right.
So that's how.
And we have very dismal, youknow, mortality rate, for you
know maternal deaths and infantdeaths way below what other,
(14:21):
less industrialized countriesenjoy.
But anyway.
So the Pregnant WorkersFairness Act finally allows
pregnant women during thenine-month gestational cycle.
You're entitled to flexibility,you're entitled to light duty,
you're entitled to remote work.
You're entitled to whatever youmay need.
Again, if you sit all day, youcan stand.
(14:42):
If you stand all day, you getto sit.
You need to.
Again, if you sit all day, youcan stand.
If you stand all day, you getto sit.
You need to drink, eat.
Your attire needs to change.
Obviously, you can't drive anhour and a half each way.
You're part of it because youhave to use the bathroom, for
example.
You're entitled to thatflexibility specifically because
it is just a reasonable periodof time, it's a reasonable
(15:06):
accommodation on all of theseissues which, by the way, a
sister statute passed the sameday, essentially was the PUMP
Act, which stands for ProvidingUrgent Maternal Protections for
New Mothers, and that means 9million more women now are
entitled to express milk in theworkplace for up to a year
(15:27):
postpartum.
Huge right, I mean that was.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
That is huge, because I did that in the bathroom, in
the bathroom right.
It can't be a bathroom Right.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
And it's not allowed to be a bathroom, a stall.
It has to be private, it has tohave a lock on the door.
Yeah, so we've got a lot ofgood things that happened in
this, like last piece of civilrights legislation that we've
seen, so we should enjoy it anduse it.
So everyone needs to know thatthose days of sorry, you know we
don't do that, we don't, wedon't provide that or over, and
(16:00):
that includes maternity leave,whether you're covered by the
Family and Medical Leave Act ornot.
It doesn't mean it's paid, butit does mean you're entitled to
recover from childbirth and getback to work.
No worse for wear, that'sfantastic, yeah, fantastic one
(16:26):
long, deep breath after that andsort of said you know what you
know, take a day off now, likewe're finally hit that number.
We hit it.
It was awesome.
So from there and this isaround the time I met Catherine
we started looking at well,what's so, what's next?
It's a natural progression.
Well, how about those bookendstages of the women's
reproductive life cycle?
End stages of women'sreproductive life cycle,
perimenopause and menopauseRight, same framework.
(16:48):
You read the legislative intentand the statute itself, the
Pregnant Workers' Fairness Act.
They're talking about the samethings, right.
And now it's affecting allwomen.
That's right.
Not all women.
We all know someone will saywomen will say no biggie for me,
right, I went through.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
I sailed through Exactly.
Oh, what are you talking about,right?
Speaker 2 (17:08):
And some women in you know more my generation, let's
say boomers, that were deprived,an entire generation deprived
of HRT because of that flawed2001 study.
So, but you know, just kind ofsaying, who even talks about
this.
Well, my mother's generation.
It was like menopause.
I don't think I said that wordever aloud yeah, I don't think I
(17:29):
went through it.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
You're like yes, you did.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
Yeah, right, right, well, that was just because you
didn't even allow yourself tounderstand what was happening,
or, um, because nobody wouldhave cared that's right but but
still a large segment of thepopulation goes through
significant challenging changes.
A lot of times, a lot of timespeople don't even realize.
(17:52):
Women don't realize it sort ofcreeps up on you.
It comes on early rightPerimenopause In your 30s you
could still experience it.
And doctors, historically today, poo-poo it, misdiagn.
They have no training, they sayit's in your head, they
prescribe psychotropic meds.
So it's a.
It's a.
(18:12):
It's sort of a challengingbattle but on all the levels and
all the many symptoms, some youknow you just don't it starts
with, just don't feel likeyourself right, but after that
there's a lot of, there'snumerous.
All the major bodily functionscan be involved, which we'll get
to, because this is whymenopausal and perimenopausal
women today still haveprotections in the workplace,
which we'll get to.
But what we've been talkingabout and what Catherine and I
(18:34):
then drafted, based on thePregnant Workers Fairness Act,
we drafted a menopause workersfairness act bill.
That, um, we you know some ofour colleagues, we used to post
these on LinkedIn constantlySome other colleagues got
interested.
We ended up presenting thisbill at least the outline of
(18:55):
what the Menopause Fairness Actbill should be to Congress this
past July, at a midlife women'sand menopause health symposium,
a couple of DemocraticCongresswomen became interested
in it.
We've been working then sincethen, until the election, let's
say on this bill with the UnitedStates Equal Employment
(19:16):
Opportunity Commission, withselect OBGYNs that were part of
our process, and we've beenhashing out the bill that was
going to be presented by thisone Democratic congresswoman who
we're not even now permitted toname her because it's sort of
it has stalled.
Ok, because for obvious reasons, because it ain't never going
to pass right now, in the nextfour years, but I'm still we're
(19:39):
going to keep it alive as muchas possible, but that's what
that's coming eventually if wesurvive as a democracy, and
that's really what would beneeded, just like the Pregnant
Workers' Fandice Act, to finallysay you know what menopause
itself isn't a disability either.
It's a natural biological lifestage change.
(20:02):
And you say you know, reeseWitherspoon or fanning herself
on camera or people saying like,this is a real thing and we
shouldn't be stigmatized andtaboo as all women's from menses
(20:35):
to menopause.
Speaker 1 (20:36):
It's always stigmatized and taboo Like it's
icky.
Don't talk about it with us,it's not our problem, it's your
problem.
Yeah, but it's okay, go ahead.
There are several other reasonswhy, but awareness is key.
And to take that a step further, you know, when we experience
those symptoms and when werecognize that it's menopause,
there's still a lot of silencein the workplace.
(20:57):
There's still a lot of fearthat we're going to disclose
that we're going throughmenopause, we're going to be
discriminated against.
And if we know that, theMenopause Fair Workers Act, am I
saying that right?
Speaker 2 (21:13):
Menopause Fairness Workers Act.
Okay, menopause WorkersFairness Act.
Speaker 1 (21:18):
I'm sorry, it's a mouthful, isn't it?
If we know that that's notgoing to pass in the next four
years, tell me if I am a womanand I'm experiencing menopause,
should I be concerned about that?
And and if not, how am I stillprotected?
Speaker 2 (21:35):
Okay, great question.
And here's where kind of therubber meets the road.
And I find, in posting aboutthis on TikTok and LinkedIn for
the last two years, that no oneelse really want lawyers,
particularly no one acknowledgesit.
It's like you know what, untilthis becomes something, jack,
you keep, jack, catherine, youkeep doing what you do, but
we're waiting on the sidelinesfor this.
(21:56):
But in the meantime, here's thedrum we keep banging because
and no one can contest this,this is true the symptoms of
perimenopause and menopauseoften actually may I lead into
this?
You could say no, but I wasgoing to read a brief direct
message.
Speaker 3 (22:11):
I got, I get a direct message on LinkedIn from a
person.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
I'm reading this, with her permission.
I'm not naming her.
Here's what it says Hi Jack,your post about perimenopause in
the workplace resonates andraises questions about what I
have been experiencing in myworkplace.
I am 49 and recently able toput the puzzle pieces together
that I have been coping withperimenopause symptoms
misdiagnosed as depression lastMay to June.
(22:40):
Meanwhile, I have been placedon a PIP, a performance
improvement plan at work, for myinability to quote, manage
tasks, unquote, which I canfirmly now say is a result of my
symptoms.
I have been successful in mycareer, receiving promotions and
stellar reviews.
This is the first time in mycareer mention of and being
(23:02):
placed on a PIP came up.
Wow, okay, so this is whathappens.
Her younger, pisher malemanager is holding her to
account for the insomnia thatshe's been suffering.
She was experiencing emotionalextremes, rage.
She didn't know what was goingon.
(23:22):
That's why they were saying itwas depression.
It was this kind of whirlwindof hormonal activity or
diminishment of it, and shedidn't know what was going on
and she still hadn't evenconsulted a menopause aware
practitioner to get a clue.
But a PIP for those of you whodon't know, a performance
improvement plan is designed tomanage you out of your job,
(23:46):
right, so that's not good to beat that place.
This is your economic lifeline,your job right.
Speaker 1 (23:51):
It's the documentation right that
organizations need to start.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (23:56):
Those that don't understand Exactly.
Speaker 2 (23:58):
But it is a setup to that.
Most people don't recover fromPIPS because it's very
subjective anyway and theyalmost don't expect you to,
because how demoralizing is itto get that so but here's the
point, to answer your questiondirectly and what I told her
when we consulted the symptomsthat she was going through the
(24:19):
symptoms that women go throughwhen they affect and this is
just the language from theAmericans with Disabilities Act
Amendments Act of 2008, whenthose symptoms substantially
affect or impair a major lifeactivity sleeping, thinking,
walking, working you know,that's like everything eating
(24:43):
you're already covered by theAmericans with Disabilities Act
and entitled from your employerto an interactive process,
meaning a conversation aboutwhat you need to help you to
stay gainfully employed, orsymptoms that affect major
bodily functions.
one that's always affected isthe endocrine system, the
(25:06):
diminishment of endogenoushormones you know what's going
on the wild fluctuations thatare freaking people out, and all
of it.
The loss of libido, the loss ofit affects every bodily, major
bodily function and organ.
When you have that from anaturopath, an OBGYN, any type
(25:26):
of aware practitioner it doesn'thave to be an MD and you say to
your employer I'm going throughthis, I need this flexibility.
These are bona fide issues thatare documented.
Your employer cannot hoopoo it.
They can't dismiss it.
They might want to, they mighttry, but they can't because of
(25:47):
the definition I just gave.
It's black and white.
Under the ADA there's nodistinction.
For if it's, you know, natural,if it's not, you know people
think well, but you're notreally sick, it's not a
disability, right, it's natural,yeah, but the symptoms are
covered, right, that might bevisible, but they're covered by
the ADA.
So I'm entitled to a reasonableaccommodation unless you can
(26:11):
prove that.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
what I need, like a brief menopause absence, you
know, a change in ventilationair conditioning, a fan or a
break to go to the bathroom or abreak.
Change my pads Right.
Speaker 2 (26:25):
Change in my clothing for those who have to wear hot
uniforms, right the variousfairly modest changes.
Maybe remote work.
When you're going through adifficult period in a culture
right now that does a lot ofremote work, the company would
have to say oh no, no, no, no,we can't do that.
And we won't do that becauseit's an undue hardship on our
business.
We can't afford it.
It's going to put us on.
(26:54):
That's a tough road for thecompany to hoe.
It's difficult.
And by requesting it and here'swhat people need to know by
requesting this need for anaccommodation, the requests
itself are considered protectedactivity under our civil rights
law.
So you can't be retaliatedagainst If they say we're going
to make it worse on you just byhaving the audacity to request
that.
That's illegal.
Now we also have the problem ofwomen will often say do I
(27:18):
really want to raise theseissues?
It's like none of theirfreaking business.
Speaker 1 (27:21):
Right, we hear that, or I'm afraid they're going to.
Speaker 2 (27:24):
Anyway, I don't want to be the one, or I'm afraid
they're going to anyway, I don'twant to be the one, I don't
want to be the one.
Well, if you don't want to be,I know.
But the problem is like this DMI read, and that story didn't
end well, by the way.
So the point is because shesort of chose, she chose not to
raise those issues.
Speaker 1 (27:41):
So it ended up, and you know that happens, one in 10
, one in 10 women will leave theworkforce voluntarily to not
have to walk down this road.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
That's a big number.
Self-exiling, that's right,right or get, ultimately, you
know, canned Right.
So it's a huge issue.
So this is what's empoweringabout it.
But, by the way, additionally,additionally, beside the
disability component, it's onlyhappening to women component.
It's only happening to women.
And again, I'll say, yes, ithappens to you know trans men
(28:10):
and you know some non-binaryindividuals and such, but in the
main, in the vastly in the main, cisgender women, assigned
female at birth, are the cohortright, and so it's women.
It's not men, it's women and ithas nothing to do with, you
know, factional preferences orsexual orientation, it's just
your sex.
Women are dealing with this.
(28:32):
So it's a sex-based, it'scovered under sex discrimination
laws.
You have to give me this.
This is a sex-based issue andthe clincher, the Holy Trinity
of this is that for the mostpart can't happen earlier, but
women are typically 40 plus and40 is the age, coincidentally,
(28:52):
in our culture, under the AgeDiscrimination and Employment
Act, that we're protected fromage-based discrimination.
So you have this intersectionalsex plus claim, sex, age,
disability, these impairmentsthat are temporary, natural,
that entitle us to thatinteractive process, that
cooperative dialogue and byraising the issues, if you've
(29:14):
got man, you know, dare I callit the courage to be that first
person.
But listen, if you think,especially if you think you're
going to be managed out the door, if you think that it's not
going well, you're just going toget fired like everybody else
does, and not get a dime byraising these issues.
If the marriage can't be saved,so to speak, if you're going to
(29:36):
have to separate, that's howyou can set yourself up to
command severance right.
That's how you can hold themaccountable and that's what
makes the world go round.
By the way, and all thatdocumentation, documentation,
documentation about whatever.
Because, because, April, let'sface the reality here.
In our corporate culture,Ninety percent of us plus are at
(30:00):
will employees.
If I may go into the slightside, Right and at will
employees to your listeners whodon know means you don't have a
contract of employment.
That virtually no one these dayscan command.
You don't have a contract.
You have an offer letter maybe.
You don't have a contract.
And if you have what looks likea contract or an employment
agreement, it says right in ityou're an at-will employee.
(30:20):
That means you can be fired atany time for any reason or no
reason at all, and you can quitwhenever you want.
So we don't have any.
We have one right.
We have one right in employmentin the United States.
That one right is the right notto be treated differently
because of something about usthat we can't change.
(30:41):
Typically right, and it hasmany subparts.
This one right Race, color, age, religion, ethnicity, national
origin, sex.
Sex includes pregnancy, unequalpay, you know, sexual
harassment, et cetera, failureto promote women but it's still
one right.
So what people have tounderstand is if, as a woman of
(31:02):
color, I'm just going to, nomatter what it is, because white
privilege, male privilege, arethings in our culture.
I vouch for that.
We know that.
So if you're experiencingdisparate treatment another way
of saying discrimination in yourworkplace, microaggressions
because you're black, over 40,and, again specific to our
(31:24):
conversation, because you're awoman of a certain age or, as my
colleague Lauren Sheeran coined, the woman of a certain stage,
like the bookend stages,perimenopause or menopause and
you need some TLC from youremployer, you really should ask
for it Because, first of all,sometimes they do surprise us.
(31:47):
These days, it is a trendingtopic.
Some companies are trying.
Speaker 1 (31:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
So, if you do it, you might get the hookup.
And, and top it all off, yourinvocation, your requests, in
and of themselves, again, arethoroughly protected and maybe,
and listen, this is what makes,this is how laws get, this is
what this is how it all happens,we have to get a critical mass
of interest people demanding itright.
Speaker 1 (32:13):
The more people that speak up right, the more
awareness, the more we requestit.
We had a question.
The M Factor film is beingshown across the country right
now.
We're on a panel and someonesaid how do we bring workplace
training and menopause into ourorganization?
Ask, you have to speak up andget other people to ask, because
(32:37):
it's the masses that are goingto change the movement right.
Speaker 2 (32:42):
Right, well, that's what happened?
With the civil rights movement.
That's what happened with thewomen's rights movement in the
70s, so you know it is all of apiece and listen in other places
.
I'm doing a podcast with LaurenSheeran, who I just mentioned,
who's a an English, a Britishbased menopause coach and
trainer and expert, but inEngland much different, much
(33:08):
better, and some other kindsAustralia way ahead of us,
everybody's way ahead of us.
Speaker 1 (33:14):
And hopefully I mean the movement is changing right.
There is change.
We work with wonderfulorganizations who are really
trying to fold in menopause,support menopause policy, and
there are organizations that aredoing a great job.
There's a lot of work to bedone, for sure.
That being said, are therespecific industries that you're
(33:39):
working with that or you see aredoing a better job than others
in supporting women in thisstage of life?
Speaker 2 (33:48):
I don't know the answer to that question.
I'm not at that, you know.
I'm simply the employee rightsperson.
Speaker 1 (33:54):
You're not seeing trends, though I'm not seeing a
trend?
Speaker 2 (33:57):
I mean, I'm sure there's an answer to that, I
just don't know it, so I can'ttell you.
I can tell you where maybe youwould think it was in in
healthcare or for nurses andthat I could tell you it's not.
You know it's, so I don't knowwhich.
I think it's, perhaps, unless,catherine, you got a sense of
this.
I think it's more companyspecific than it is industry
specific.
I don't know that, you knowthey're just.
(34:19):
There are companies that aretrying to do it, if only for the
reason not because they're such, you know, bleeding heart
liberals and progressives andcare about women so much as they
care about their own bottomline.
And it's true, we lose billionsof lose billions of dollars to
the loss of talent.
When you talk about women atthe top of their game, at the
top of their careers, beingsidelined for all of this
(34:40):
mishigas over nothing, becausewe won't support them, I mean
that's the, that's the.
You know, that's the.
That's the rub.
We don't support women, wedon't.
When it comes to health research, even women are.
You know, we don't, we don'ttest, we don't test our
medications on women.
It's mostly for men.
It's really, you know, it'sjust, it's we, we all, should be
(35:00):
outraged much of the time.
I mean look.
I mean again reproductiverights in general.
I mean look what we're.
Look where we are now, 50 yearson after Roe v Wade.
We're back to and we're back to.
We're going back 50 years andthe current.
(35:22):
There's a bill pending rightnow that was presented, authored
by Vice President-elect JDVance, called Dismantle DEI Act.
Oh yes, that's just all abouttaking us back to the good old
days of women in the kitchen andpeople of color in the back of
the bus.
Speaker 1 (35:38):
Frankly, yeah, yeah.
It's a shame to see the DEIinitiatives being ditched, with
organizations for sure If I'm anorganization listening to this
podcast.
Is there a takeaway here thateither one of you would like to
share?
Jack, catherine, you'vementioned so many.
(35:59):
I mean, there is a financialbenefit to supporting women.
It's the right thing to do.
It's the legal thing to do.
What would you say to you knowXYZ organization, if I'm tuning
into this, what is that?
Speaker 2 (36:14):
I get that if it was, if it were Catherine and I, and
if we were, if we were theco-senior VPs of human resource
and had the authority in anorganization, or or even if I'm
just a CEO of an organization, Isay you know what?
My daughter raised this issue,my wife I.
I heard something, I watchedsomething, again assuming a
non-sociopathic CEO.
I want to let's be the modelfor this.
(36:38):
It's not like we're doinggiveaways here.
Let's be the company that we'regetting written up as the most
pro you know sort of pro-womenagenda company.
For our own, we want to be ableto recruit the best senior
talent and we want to be knownas forget about the terms that
(36:59):
are now not in vogue like DEI.
We just want to be known thatwe promote, you know, women in
leadership, because that'sthat's mostly my client base
anyway.
Women in leadership.
We promote, we retain, weencourage, we nurture, and it's
not my, we're not asking formuch, it's not doing much.
(37:20):
So I would want to do thatbecause I know that this is
something that's great for ourPR and our bottom line.
So why don't we be the first todo it?
What would it take?
It seems to be the same winds ofyou know, kind of the this
tension, which is why I thinklawyers no matter, no, lawyers
(37:41):
never comment on this when Italk about it.
We're writing a white paper onthis, we've been posting about
it.
I have another LinkedIn postgoing up tomorrow on the
Menopause fairness act and noone ever is willing to say other
than yeah, that sounds right.
I mean, the ADA is right,because no one wants to advance
that notion until they sort ofhave to.
(38:02):
But that's out that to me.
I just I don't, I don't get it.
So, to answer the question,let's see one progressive
thought leader person say I wantto take our company in this
direction so that we'll be onthe front page of whatever
publication and let's start atrend because it's good for us,
(38:23):
it's good for business and it'sgood for our for women 100%,
yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:29):
And the question is, the real question is why aren't
we doing it Right?
It's it is.
The cost to implement programslike this for an organization we
say this time and time again isminimal, minimal, and the
reward on the other side, thatreturn on investment, is huge,
(38:49):
huge, wouldn't it be great?
I mean perfect world, and Ihave my best cheerleaders here,
I know so your answer, of course, is gonna be yes, but I'll ask
it anyway.
But wouldn't it be wonderful ifevery organization in the US
was what we call menopausefriendly, and we don't use that
term lightly.
It's meaningful, wouldn't thatbe wonderful?
(39:11):
And what would that look like?
It's meaningful, wouldn't thatbe wonderful?
And what would that look like?
It would be a much differentexperience for so many people.
Speaker 3 (39:17):
Well, catherine, what do you?
Speaker 1 (39:19):
have to say.
Speaker 3 (39:21):
I was just going to say that the frameworks are
actually already there inorganizations, and that's what I
was actually going to point outto your last question is that
the extension that the Menopauseworkers fairness act makes to
the pregnancy act, yourorganization already has
everything you need to do themenopause workers fairness act
already, so you're not actuallycreating anything new in your
(39:45):
organization that isn't alreadythere.
So what I mean by that is youare already legally bound.
Your organization alreadylegally has in place that when
someone comes to your HR or yourCEO or whoever the high ranking
official in management might bewithin your corporation, that
you already know how to haveconversations around finding
(40:09):
reasonable accommodations.
And so, because that's alreadyestablished, there's, honestly,
no structural changes, that hugestructural changes you need to
be making.
It's merely creating a safeenvironment where workers feel
comfortable expressing that theyare going through this stage of
life and that reasonableaccommodations are therefore
(40:32):
something they need and thatthey're legally required to get.
So, honestly, companies don'thave to change that much.
It's really just about making asafe space and then extending
the same reasonableaccommodations you would to any
other employees.
Something that people findreally interesting is that when
we talk about reasonableaccommodations for menopause.
(40:54):
A piece of advice that Jack andI frequently give is that look
at your coworkers and whatreasonable accommodations
they're already getting forother disabilities in your
workplace.
So Jack and I aren't tellingwomen that just because you get
menopause, you should go to yourworkers and ask for things that
no one else in your workplaceis getting or that are, you know
(41:15):
, way off the given track.
Literally, it's just going toyour employer and saying, hey, I
noticed that so-and-so is ableto do this.
I also need that accommodation.
How can we make that happen?
So all the frameworks arealready there and it's really
not that big of an ask.
So when you say what would theworld look like if every
(41:37):
organization was menopause aware, was more open to menopause
accommodations, well the answeris it probably wouldn't look
that different because thestructural supports are there.
It's just more people would bereceiving those structural yeah,
it's such a good point.
Speaker 1 (41:52):
Yes, such a good point.
Catherine, thank you so muchfor bringing that up.
Yeah, we're not reinventing thewheel.
That's brilliant, and it'sactually I don't know how we top
that.
I really don't know how we topthat, so it's a great way to end
.
I'm going to ask one morequestion before we sign off.
(42:13):
Is there anything else that youwould like our listeners to
know, that you would like toshare, that we haven't talked
about today?
Speaker 3 (42:25):
So my caution that I always like to throw out there
to everyone is don't go making aunilateral decision to change
your job environment withouttalking to your employer and
employers.
Similarly, it's a good idea tocheck in with your employees
about what their needs are.
This legislation everythingJack was talking about today is
(42:48):
really based on the idea that wewant employers and employees to
be having conversations,because when you have those
conversations, you don't needJack and I because you're
working things out with eachother.
So my big advice is to do notmake unilateral decisions.
Try to work within frameworksof organizations and then
sometimes, yes, you do need alittle outside support, because
(43:10):
not everyone is going to bewilling to work with everyone
else.
But a great first place is tocome to the table from a place
of I believe my employer wantsto work with me.
I believe my employee wants todo a good job.
How do we enable everyone to dothat?
And then hopefully, jack and Iwon't have as much of a job
anymore.
Speaker 2 (43:28):
Yeah, and the one thing, april, that's also
brilliant, catherine, because Iwould add to that to answer your
question about, like one otherthing yeah, yeah, you raise
these issues because you're sortof drowning alone and you see
that your employer doesn't knowthey don't know what you don't
(43:55):
tell them and they're going tohold you accountable for not
sleeping at night and showing updazed.
So when you request theseaccommodations, as I mentioned,
it's considered protectedactivity because you're saying
as a woman, as a woman who'spotentially is over 40, as a
woman dealing with thesedisabling issues as a result of
menopause, and they do affectmajor life activities or major
(44:18):
bodily functions.
If it can't be worked out,that's when you may need, you
know, a Catherine or I behindthe scenes to help you get out
of there, but holding themaccountable and get enough money
to hold you over to the nextjob, because by saying I believe
I'm being essentially treateddifferently as a woman in this
(44:40):
life stage, with these disablingissues.
And then let's say they fire youon the heels of that.
That is called something in ourworld.
That's called retaliatorydischarge.
If there's an adverseemployment action, like a firing
or a demotion, on the heels ofa protected request for help
because of a sex, age ordisability-based issue, that's
(45:06):
considered retaliatory.
If they just say sorry, no soupfor you, sister, and then they
fire you.
So there are sometimes that'sthe way that we can hold Goliath
to account with our littleslingshot.
The ping in the head to Goliathbecause they have the law on
their side, they have moreresources than we do is saying
(45:27):
you know what game on You'retreating me differently.
This is discriminatory andretaliatory.
Now you know what?
I have a claim.
These are the claims I'mlooking to bring on behalf of
people.
We have, you know, but they'revery slow in coming and
eventually there's going to be awave of them, like there were
with pregnancy.
We're going to have a law but,like everything else, when it
comes to women, it's likepulling teeth.
(45:48):
And you ask why?
Because it's women, because welive in a patriarchy full stop.
Speaker 1 (45:55):
I agree and I'm so glad that you both mentioned
those last key takeaways,catherine, yeah, you're
absolutely correct, making thoseunilateral decisions on your
own, without having thoseconversations with your
employers so important torecognize, those conversations
with your employers so importantto recognize.
(46:15):
And then to your point, jackyou know employers and managers
don't know what they don't know,especially if we have a male
who hasn't been around females,who doesn't know about menopause
.
Again, it kind of comes back tothat awareness and how
important that is they don'tknow what they don't know.
So if you don't speak up andyou don't mention that, you
might be suffering from XYZ.
That's when your performanceimprovement plan begins, right,
(46:37):
I had a personal situation withsomeone very close to me that
had an employee that was goingthrough perimenopause, who just
wasn't herself.
And you know that was theconversation.
I think I'm going to have tostart making notes, right, I'm
going to have to startdocumenting.
And it was, it was.
You know, that was theconversation.
I think I'm gonna have to start, uh, making notes, right, I'm
gonna have to start documenting.
And and it was, it was.
You know.
The next thing, uh, in theconversation was well, do you
(47:01):
think you know how old is thisperson?
Do you think that it might bemenopause or perimenopause?
Yeah, no clue, right?
Um, and this is someone that isis very close to me, that had
had, has had conversations forthe past decade about menstrual
health and sexual reproductivehealth at the dinner table.
So, you know, if if you have asituation like that and someone
(47:24):
that isn't aware of menopause,we have a lot of work to do
there as well.
But those are, those are reallyimportant takeaways.
If we have listeners that needassistance, how might they find
you and are there otherorganizations that they might be
able to reach out to?
Speaker 2 (47:44):
Yes, well, first of all, for us, the shorthand for
the firm is Tuckner, sipser,weinstock and Sipser is the
longer hand.
We're based in Manhattan, inNew York City.
We have another office upstateNew York.
Catherine holds down the fortfor us.
In California we also, butwe're not, you know, the only
(48:07):
game in town these days.
If you're in another state,it's always best.
It's always best, I mean, youcan.
Certainly.
I've represented women in 22states so far.
It's not like we can't, butit's generally best to seek a
lawyer in your jurisdiction sothey could go to court for you.
I'm licensed in New York andConnecticut, california, that
you know.
We don't cover all the groundand there is an organization
(48:30):
called the National EmploymentLawyers Association based in San
Francisco, and there areaffiliates in every state.
Essentially, you could justfind a plaintiff side, an
employee rights, not amanagement lawyer, employment
lawyer.
You know, somebody experienced.
It's also easy to kind ofGoogle these days, but you can
find us either calling us, youknow, at our 212 number, or you
(48:54):
can email us at info atwomensrightsnycom I don't know
if and you can find Catherineand I on LinkedIn.
I'm at Jack Tuckner, catherineKreider, dm email call.
Speaker 1 (49:11):
There's no excuse, right?
You can get ahold of us and youpost a lot on LinkedIn, so I
just want to shout out there aswell, connecting with LinkedIn.
I'm going to do that as soon aswe're done today so that we can
follow you and your whitepapers and this menopause
support and advocacy that wemight be able to get involved
with.
Thank you so much for being onthe show today sharing your
(49:34):
expertise and your passion.
I know I speak for everyone outthere who's going through
menopause and the menopausejourney right now.
Thank you, we appreciate thework that you're doing.
Speaker 2 (49:46):
Lovely to talk to you my pleasure, thank you.
Speaker 3 (49:48):
Thanks for your work, April.
Speaker 2 (49:50):
Of course.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (49:53):
Thank you for listening to the Medovia
Menopause Podcast.
If you enjoyed today's show,please give it a thumbs up.
Subscribe for future episodes,leave a review and share this
episode with a friend.
Medovia is out to change thenarrative.
Learn more at Medoviacom.
That's M-I-D-O-V-I-A dot com.
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