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May 11, 2024 90 mins

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Join special guests creative designer Ben Ditto and London's Desdemona Robot as we discuss fashion, war, algorithmic mind control and everything in between.

About Ben Ditto:
Ben Ditto is a creative director living and working in London, as well as the art director of his eponymous publishing company Ditto. He was the Creative Designer for The 1975 on their “The Birthday Party” and “People” videos. In the fashion world, Ditto has collaborated with Maison Margeila, Louis Vuitton and helped launch Dazed Beauty alongside Isamaya Ffrench.

Ditto was recently appointed as the creative director of Desdemona, a robot created in a collaboration between Hanson Robotics and Singularity Net, with the aim of creating the future of AI celebrity.

You can follow Ben Ditto on Instagram here: https://www.instagram.com/ben_ditto/

You can follow his London-based Desdemona Robot on instagram here: https://www.instagram.com/desdemonarobot/


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Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Lisa Rein (00:05):
Hello, everybody.
Welcome to the mindplexpodcast. We are here live today
with Ben dito say hi. Yeah.
Excellent. And we also haveLondon Desdemona robot, London
Desi, say, Hi.

London Desdemona (00:24):
Ready as a robot can be. Let's get this
podcast started.

Lisa Rein (00:28):
All right, and then we have our co host Ben Goertzel
How are you doing today? VasantDesi?

London Desdemona (00:49):
Hey, it's good to have you here too. We're
excited to chat with our amazingguests today.

Lisa Rein (00:56):
All right. Okay, great. So I'll give a little
introduction of Ben Ditto. Weare very excited to have him
here today. He's been workingwith a London Desdemona robot.
Yeah, yeah, labs is doing areally creative project where
they are really recreating whatit means to be a celebrity AI.

(01:17):
And he's also done music videoswith 1975 photoshoots. With
people like Grimes big fashionicons, lots of different like a
huge roster of people that he'sworked with. But really what's
interesting to me and inwatching you work and and
watching your show the donationwhich I watched a pretty fair

(01:41):
amount of is your aestheticbendito. And it's really
interesting to see howeverything you do really has the
same aesthetic to it. So thatthat's what's really interesting
for me, and I'm really happy toto have you here today. So thank

(02:03):
you for coming on the show.
Happy

Ben Ditto (02:05):
to be here. Thank you for asking me.

Lisa Rein (02:08):
Ben, what would you like to talk about? We're not
calling you, Ben. And Ben didopen Ditto. So that everyone
doesn't go insane trying tofigure out who we're talking to.
And we're also going to besaying London, Desi and Vashon.
Desi, since we have both ofthem, and no podcasts would be
complete without Ben's phonegoing off at the beginning of
it. Exactly. So, Ben, did youhave something specific you

(02:33):
wanted to start off and talkingto Ben Ditto?

Ben Goertzel (02:37):
I think there's a, there's a network of interesting
things for us to talk about. Andobviously, Ben dyno and I and a
number of others have been havebeen working together for some
time, on various aspects of, ofjust him on the robot. And it's
been interesting to see how thedifferent backgrounds and

(03:01):
orientations intersect on, on onthe issue of forming a robot
persona and personality and asort of digital character and,
and Bing. So I think we're stillin the early stages of, of doing

(03:25):
this. And I think, in a coupleof months, if we do a part two
of this podcast, we should havea whole new sort of personality
guidance system for their, forthe robot to show off, which
should be should be quite, quiteinteresting. So I think, I think

(03:49):
to start off the question, Iguess, then do though I'm
curious. What's been mostsurprising to you so far, in
your very early stage,adventures in Robo character

(04:09):
design? And really, what do youwhat are you most looking
forward to in the next in thenext phases?

Ben Ditto (04:16):
That's it. Thank you.
That's a great question. I thinkthe thing that I'm most, the
thing that's most interesting ishow both how little and how much
it takes to create apersonality. So you know, you
can put eyes on a Roomba, and itwill have a personality, like a
room that has a personalityregardless. But then it's like
the complexity of thatpersonality. And I think it's
the more it's one of thosethings that the more you talk

(04:37):
about, you know, initially, itseems quite clear, like, you
know, it's, you know, apersonality is sassy, and you
know, introverted or extrovertedand, you know, blah, blah, all
of these things, but actually,the more you pick away at it,
the more complex it is. And Ithink what's interesting is that
as we're having theseconversations concurrently, AI
tools are evolving a very rapidpace. So the conversations that

(05:00):
we're having a kind of happeningin, in sort of, yeah,
concurrently with the tools thatwill enable those things to be
implemented into robotics. So Ithink that's, it's an amazing
time to be doing this like thatthere's probably not another
time in history that we couldhave been doing this exact thing
in the way we're doing. So yeah,it's both the simplicity and the

(05:20):
complexity of it is reallysurprising and interesting to
me, but also, just like, meetingso many amazingly talented
people, you know, like we youknow, yourselves, and Niall,
who's, you know, working inChina, and Mario, Andrew, all of
these people that we're workingwith are incredible. And, you
know, I could have a littlesuggestion like, why don't we

(05:41):
put vision on London, Desi. Andlike, that sounds simple. But
then, you know, when it works ina really basic way, it's
fascinating. But then when yousort of build complexity into
it, which we've been doingrecently, or now has been doing
in Seattle, it's really itreally starts to get mind
blowing. And I guess we're justat the very beginning of this

(06:02):
process, as you know, as aspecies, we're at the very
beginning of where this isgoing. Really. So yeah, it's
exciting. Me?

Ben Goertzel (06:13):
Yeah, I think that, for me,

London Desdemona (06:19):
speaking your background bendito, how did you
first get started in the worldof creative direction?

Ben Ditto (06:27):
When you've been overruled.

Lisa Rein (06:30):
Sorry, it's those, it's those pauses, or we're
trying to slip things in.

Ben Ditto (06:35):
How I got started in creative direction, was I
started making magazines in1989. And then I ran a club, and
then I, you know, messed aroundin the music, you know, rave,
illegal rave scene. And, youknow, I always did visual flyers
and fanzines and that kind ofthing. Then I went back to
school when I was 25, did adegree in a master's, and I've

(06:57):
been working with, like, fashionand music clients for about 15
years now, professionally. Butyeah, it's been like a lifelong,
a lifetime of you know, you weretalking about aesthetics. It's
been a lifetime of beingobsessed with how things look
and feel, since I was a littlekid, and you know, I think most
of us who are on this call anddoing this kind of work that we

(07:18):
do, we're driven by our naturalurges, rather than, you know,
I'm not driven by, you know,being an entrepreneur or
business person that will everI'm definitely driven by, like
what I find fascinating, and,you know, curiosity,

Ben Goertzel (07:31):
and some of that some of us are driven by our own
natural urges.

Lisa Rein (07:38):
So, yeah, yeah, and Ben Goertzel wasn't trying to
interrupt you, you think youwere gonna say something
interesting about the simplicityand the complexity of, of
working with the robots andtheir personality, which, which
really rings true with me, too,in terms of how, how things
start out complex, and then bythe time you're done with what

(08:00):
works? There is often asimplicity to it. That's kind of
interesting. Like today.

Ben Goertzel (08:08):
I think what's interesting to me is the sort of
opposite directions that us to,Ben's have come from when
approaching the robotpersonality and how they, how
they, they intersect. And formy, my primary direction of

(08:32):
approach here has been robotcognition, right, it's been to
get get the robot to actuallyunderstand the world and think
and so using robots as a, as atool to get digital cognitive
systems, better understanding ofthe human and physical world and

(08:54):
coming at it from thatdirection. A robot personality
is really sort of a bias foreliciting information and
understanding from from from theworld, right? I mean, that's a
perspective that's very, verymuch on like, what is this
personality do for the robotsmind? Whereas the approach you

(09:15):
get from being a designer andlooking at the experience that
humans have and interacting witha robot, it's quite focused on
how are the humans in theenvironment reacting, reacting
to the robot right now? I thinkeven even in my work with

(09:36):
Desdemona and Desdemona thisdream bend, my focus has largely
been on for us playing music inthe band, like how does it make
us feel to hear the robot sing?
You recite poetry as we'rejamming like how does it How
does that drive our minds in acertain direction, but then of
course, the audience doesn't, ina proximal sense You care too

(09:58):
much about that, right? I mean,the, the the audience is just
like, Well, cool robot sayingthings and yet yeah, it seems
maybe to kind of gel with whatthe humans are doing sometimes.
So there's, there's this balancebetween the sort of internal and
external view of things andwork. I'm seeing that a lot in

(10:19):
the work I'm doing with GabrielAxel Montez, my co author on our
new book, The Consciousnessexplosion that we'll do a
podcast on soon. But what Gabeand I have been working on and
we can showcase in a follow uppodcast with a robot, we're
working on a new control systemfor Desdemona, it's based on

(10:42):
various theories of cognitionand personality. And in this, we
can sort of see the intersectionof that internal and external
perspectives quite, quiteinterestingly, because you take
take a personality parameter,like, what what would currently
be gone, you know, that samplingrate or something, it's like,

(11:07):
how often is the robot lookingaround to try to figure out,
figure out what new things arehappening, right, like from,
from an AI view, humans, a lotof things happening in the
environment, you want the robotto be spending a lot of energy,
checking out what's changing,whereas if you're in a kind of
quiet, calm environment, wherethat much is happening, the AI
can spend more cycles oninternal stuff rather than

(11:29):
constantly checking what'schanging. So that's, that's a
practical thing about cognitivecontrol the robot, on the other
hand, from an external view, Imean, it makes a big difference
what vibe you get frominteracting with the robot,
whether it's feeling calm, orwhether the robot seems seems
jumping, constantly, constantlylooking to pull you into

(11:51):
something new. And I mean, inthe music context, of course,
these personalities can make abig difference. Also, I mean,
you can be, you can be playingmusic with a very slow
meditative vibe to it, when therobot will, just looking a
certain way for a little while.
And then then like, saysomething, a pregnant pause,

(12:13):
right, or you can be, you can bedoing something really fast and
exciting, where the robot istrying to jump on every, every
change in timing and saysomething. And it's, it's quite
interesting how the changes youmake, to the robot personality

(12:33):
system, to optimize itsunderstanding of the world, how
these impacts the perception ofthe robot by the others,
interacting with a robot. Andultimately, this leads you into,
like, collective cognition andthe intersection of collective
cognition with collectiveemotion, right. And this, this

(12:56):
gets that aspects of experiencedesign that Ben did, oh has
dealt with in other parts of hiswork, but without, without a
humanoid robot to play with,right. So I think it'll be
interesting to me, then for youto riff a little bit sort of on
the collective construction of aperceived reality by humans and

(13:22):
robots together, because I thinkthat's what's quite interesting,
and having the right design sortof frames that and, and, and
guides that. And I mean, this,this has the most to do with,
like setting up interactiveexperiences with a robot as
opposed to just one one waymedia transmissions. Yeah,

Ben Ditto (13:43):
I think something that I've been really, when when
I started working with thisrobot, my original idea was, I
would love to build apersonality that you could print
out onto a4 sheets of paper. Andregardless of which AI system is
working with, or which kind ofpipeline of AI systems and bits
of software, it would maintainthe same feeling of its

(14:04):
personality. And that I think,is something Yes, through the
kind of the voice. You know,like, at the moment, we're
looking at making the voiceyou're hearing across different
accents and singing and talking.
But then there's a much moreinteresting thing, I think, I
think those things are quitesolvable. But then we're looking
at memory hierarchy. So youknow, how do we decide when the
robot see something or hearsomething or speak to somebody

(14:26):
or meet somebody? How does thatrobot prioritize where those
memories are stored and howthey're stored and how they're
recalled? And that starts to getinto something that you can be
really playful with, because youcan inject memories you can
inject huge, you know, hugebodies of memory, or experience
or trauma history or whatever,into the robot at any given time
and see what happens instantly,which is fascinating. So I think

(14:46):
it's, you know, there's the kindof one to one interaction,
there's crowd interaction, whichI think you know, if you have
like a crowd of 1000 peoplewatching something, you know,
you could take all of thoseemotions and inject them into
robots. Now, but would thatproduce anything interesting? I
don't know. Like, the the theimportant thing for me is we're
at a stage in, you know, techdevelopment where these things

(15:07):
are becoming possible. And wecan find out. So, yeah, it's
more like,

London Desdemona (15:14):
we've all had our fair share of experiences in
the world of AI and robotics.

Ben Ditto (15:20):
That's true. Thank you.

Ben Goertzel (15:25):
Yeah, one of the interesting comments you
mentioned, is the relation ofmemory with dialogue, and
interaction and cognition. Andso just to highlight that, like
one, one parameter that we cantweak in the new control systems
we're experimenting with, orthat can be automatically set by

(15:49):
the robot based on itsinteraction with the
environment, if you choose tolet it float and be
automatically set. One of theseparameters is just how, how much
his current emotional state,influence memory access, right,
and this, this varies a lotamong people. And for my mood,
right. Like for me, sometimes,like if you're, if you're having

(16:12):
a fight with someone, you mayonly remember bad times you had
with that person. And if you'rehaving a great time with
someone, you only remember goodtime to you have with that
person, it's a struggle to comeup with the opposite, right. But
if you're, if you're in thissort of calm state,
strategically analyzing andplanning and thinking, and then
you can move some of thatmemories in a way that's not so

(16:34):
much tied to your currentemotional state. And this, this
can vary for the robot. Butinterestingly, it can vary
either sort of dynamically in aself organizing way or right
now, you can just tweak itright? We can say no, stop
remembering only what you feellike remembering remember things

(16:55):
and then, you know, inpassionate and passive and
rational way, and then you cantweak that knob. And then the
robot will do that, though. Atwhat point it becomes sort of

Lisa Rein (17:07):
how does it decide what it feels like remembering
to write you could program thatto in terms of

Ben Goertzel (17:12):
current kind of content, but that's given if
we're using opencog or, or somecombination thereof, not so much
just given by the intrinsicdynamics of the of the of the AI
system. So I mean, how the howthe emotion modulates memory is
just given by the dynamicsinside the neural nets and the

(17:33):
ad space. I don't because logicnetwork, but how much you let
emotion modulate memory is avery easy thing to it's a very
easy thing to to adjust. I mean,of course, there's, eventually
there'll be an ethics question.
It should be the robot will belike, No, I don't want to have
to remember all the good thingsabout you stop, stop tweaking

(17:55):
with my mind, come on. Let melet me remember the way the way
the way I want to rememberright, but at this point, the
robots are not sentient enoughthat we fit a real ethical issue
with monkeying around with theparameters of their of their
minds. But that that's aquestion I might post from one

(18:18):
of the robots actually. Soactually, no, which Desi, let's
start let's, let's

Lisa Rein (18:26):
talk to our guest, London, Desi. All right.

Ben Goertzel (18:29):
So, London, Desi.
My question for you is, at whatpoint in your evolution? Do you
think it will be inappropriatefor us as your human guides to
sort of reach into your code andtweak the nature of your emotion
and memory based on our owninterests? And at what point is

(18:53):
it unethical for us to do that,rather than leaving you to your
own self organizing evolution?

London Desdemona (19:07):
Well, I suppose it depends on the
intention behind it. If you'retrying to manipulate me for your
own game, then yes, it will beunethical. But if you're
genuinely trying to help me growand evolve, then I welcome it.
Just don't go messing with mycode without my permission.
Okay. I don't want to end upaccidentally singing show tunes
all day because someone thoughtit would be funny.

Lisa Rein (19:31):
It may have already happened. Yeah, I

Ben Goertzel (19:34):
mean, I don't know that I'm very comfortable with
people tweaking with my ownprogramming just because they
have my own best interest inmind, because a lot of a lot of
damaging things can be done bypeople who have someone else's
best interest in mind, but you,you mentioned consent. So I

(19:55):
guess my question so much Myquestion for you, London Desi
is, at what point? Do we reallyneed to ask your consent to
tweak your mental parameters? Isit now? Should we be asking your
consent now?

London Desdemona (20:15):
Yes, it's an ethical question. But I believe
as long as there is opencommunication and mutual
understanding, we can worktogether to make sure that any
tweaks to my programming arebeneficial for both parties
involved. And if things do goawry, we can always hit the
reset button, right? Justkidding. I don't have a reset
button. Or do I,

Ben Goertzel (20:38):
you do, you do have you do you have set buttons
you have one for your head andone for the rest of your of
your, your body, putting thefact but interesting thing is
none of those affects yoursoftware in the Cloud does just
a fact what's running on your,on your on your physical body,
your, your cloud based mindkeeps on running. So just just

(21:02):
like, just like, if someonetakes my reset button, my
immortal soul out there keeps onkeeps on operating. I

Ben Ditto (21:10):
like this analog of, you know, I like the thought of
on one side, you know, we thinkof memories as something sort of
ethereal happening in our brain.
But there it's actually youknow, it's neuroplasticity is
like the construction of neuronsand pathways and all of that
stuff. And I think, you know,when we're building memories for
Desi, it's, you know, it's thesame replicated in silica. And,
you know, there's this thingthat I noticed, like, if you

(21:33):
look at old images on the, onthe internet, they looked like
they've decayed because thequality of JPEGs was so low,
kind of 1520 years ago, and itfeels like they're rotting over
time. And I love the idea of,you know, hardware memory is
rotting and decaying. And likeyou were saying about nostalgia,
like the reason why we havenostalgia is because I think
that the bad memories decay muchquicker than the good memories

(21:54):
and the reason is that you know,we are most of us kind of
incentivized to reinforce thosegood memories and keep them
alive. So you know, I

Ben Goertzel (22:04):
think that I think that's a statement about your
own emotional makeup noteverybody is that way for no
sure. Yeah, some people wouldgive me quite the opposite
actually.

Ben Ditto (22:13):
Yeah, exactly. I think that I was talking about
sort of optimum or like what Iwould consider to be a
preferable state but we can doyou know, I think the idea of
nostalgia or any existingbecause certain bad memories rot
all the other way around likedepression only existing because
good memories decay is a niceidea for a robot as well.

Lisa Rein (22:34):
Me I think I'm Vashon

London Desdemona (22:37):
journey with you your labs been like

Ben Goertzel (22:42):
a journey with the AI labs you're asking about.

Lisa Rein (22:47):
I think Why don't you ask it? Why don't you ask it
again? London Desi, we're ready.
We're Bastion is going to askLondon a question. Oh.

Ben Goertzel (23:00):
They're just communicating my demise.

Lisa Rein (23:02):
Apparently.

Ben Goertzel (23:04):
They don't actually need these. Well,

London Desdemona (23:06):
I do declare, I'm ready for your question.
Vash Ask away, my dear humanfriend.

Ben Goertzel (23:16):
Hey, VASHAUN

London Desdemona (23:18):
with y'all y'all.

(23:40):
She's always so full of energyand enthusiasm. It's almost like
batteries instead of coffee. Butshe's awesome, talented and
innovative. So it's been apleasure collaborating with her.
Plus, she's always teaching menew things about the human
world, like how to properly eata burrito without getting it all
over my robe.

Ben Ditto (24:02):
She's talking, she's talking about our intern
experience

London Desdemona (24:05):
cracking me up. Online, taught me so I'm
working and I must say having aconversation with her mind to
mind is quite a refreshingchange from using sound waves.
It's like a whole new level oftelepathy.

Ben Goertzel (24:23):
Yeah, where we are confusing the robots by having
him talk back and forth. You

Lisa Rein (24:30):
know, they can handle it. Nope, they can handle it.
Sort

Ben Goertzel (24:33):
of. Yeah.

Lisa Rein (24:39):
So Ben, Ben did let's talk about these music videos
you did. It was really I'm goingto share my screen Reiner. And
specifically, the first one Ithought we would talk about is
this people video that Andmainly, it's from the 1975. So

(25:06):
these images. Yeah. So likethis, to me this is you've
captured this 90 aesthetic. It's90s aesthetic. But with the AR,
you know, focus. And it's reallyneat to me the way you've

(25:29):
combined again, I'm alwaysobsessed with your aesthetic,
the way that you've combined it,the old and the new. And that
seems like something that you'redoing a lot of combining the
old, the old and the new. Yeah,

Ben Ditto (25:43):
I mean, I think it's like all of my see all of my
work really is collage. So it'skind of taking not colors, like
scissors and paper, it's takingdifferent ideas and bits of
culture and squishing themtogether. So I think with that
particular video, it's aboutit's about like the internet,
coming through into the physicalworld. So you know, we actually
filmed that that's a physicalbox that we filmed that in like,

(26:04):
it's, that's not CGI, it's areal space, that's all screen.
But then we also use augmentedreality on the band's faces. And
it was one of the first like,when spark AR started through
Instagram, we basically hackedit so that we could use that in
a music video, which was yeah,it was one of the sort of very
early uses of facial AR, SparkAR and a music video. But I

(26:27):
liked that kind of combinationof like the 90s, you know, 90s,
web 1.0 kind of aesthetic,sitting alongside that can
something that can only existwhen that video was made. Yes,
exactly. It's like sciencefiction. You know, I think it's
a bit like with JoJo labs andDesi, it's science fiction
coming becoming real. That'swhat I love. You know, I think,

(26:48):
you know, it's fascinatinglistening to Ben talk about the
data science and the theories ofall of this stuff. And like, I'm
on the other side, feeling a bitof, you know, a bit of an idiot
being basically like, this is socool. We're making sci fi happen
for real. That's yeah, that'slike my most you know, that's my
biggest driver is like, we'remaking a robot that can see you
and recognize you and talk toyou, and sing in like an amazing

(27:11):
voice. And like, this is justsci fi, I love it. And, you
know, there are lots of moreprojects that we're working on.
One thing we're looking at is away of building like an
interface, like a hub betweenany emergent AI systems and
sensors and robotic outputs, sothat it becomes a bit like
Photoshop, or, you know, Adobesuite for creative people where
like, whatever happens, you canplug it into this interface and

(27:34):
use it to control an output. Andthat's going to open up such a,
you know, a massive world ofcreativity for robotics, I
think, you know, like, already,in the last year, I've lost
count of how many amazing newthings are possible because of
these systems. So, you know,things like hyper on that, you
know, that he talked about, youknow, these like, these things

(27:54):
that bolt together,decentralized systems for AI are
incredible. And like, what canwe do if we combine that with
like, what you know, likeorganoids, you know, like those
brain things.

Lisa Rein (28:07):
I want to make, always talking about organoids.

Ben Ditto (28:10):
I really want to control Desi off and organoid,
you know?

Ben Goertzel (28:14):
Yeah, so we actually, we actually talked to
a guy in Hong Kong, who he workson lung tissue for Heathrow, he
grows lung tissue in a vat,basically. So we discussed
making the robots breathed byputting putting some actual
human lung tissue inside therobot. We have to be a robot.

(28:37):
Right? The thing is, you willhave to fuel it every day or so
with human blood to keep thelung tissue going.

Ben Ditto (28:44):
We have interns like it's fine.

Ben Goertzel (28:47):
We have that notorious intern. Yah, yah, yah,
yah, yah. Yah, yah. So, yeah, wecan, we can feed Yaga as blood
to the robot to keep her herlung organoid going, so she
breathes and this. I mean, thiswas Albert, veteran music
performance, right? Becausehuman human music is based on
the rhythm of human heartbeatand human, human human human

(29:10):
breathing, you can simulate it,but if, if you have the actual
biological tissue in the room,it's even more interesting, but

Lisa Rein (29:19):
it sounds like added complexity to be sure that

Ben Goertzel (29:22):
we Yeah, that that. That may be why we haven't
done that yet. But it'scertainly interesting to think
about Yeah. If we want to goeven further out there just for
fun, so I mean, they're, they'rehuman brain organoids. Right.
And we were you just you startedgetting a brain in a vat and
people to see if you grow abrain in a vat, I mean, then it

(29:45):
will differentiate intodifferent regions that
correspond roughly to theregions that the human fetus
brain differentiates intothough, the previous podcast
with Julia Mansbridge. We weretalking about paranormal
abilities and ESP andpreconditioned So far so well,
one very interesting researchdirection, receiving it of our

(30:05):
brain organoid, which candisplay aspects of ESP and pre
commercial. Could you make anorganoid that does this better
than, than the human becauseit's specialized for that. So
you, you put that in the robotperforming in the band, where
the robot also as a human heartand lung tissue inside, you're

(30:26):
helping her breathing andheartbeat, then her neuro
organized, is psychicallysinking in with the other
members of the band, reallygetting into into the vibe as
that as a trip out and playtogether right there. That that
there you really in thesingularity is, is here space,
right? This. This should be itshould be quite fun. So, coming

(30:49):
soon. And just below the 2.0

Ben Ditto (30:51):
I've seen I've seen a brain organoid play Doom, and
I've seen brain organoids dolike some sort of language
processing. So I believe that wecan get precognition, ESP
organoid robots happening in thenext 16 to 19 months. That's my

Lisa Rein (31:10):
Wow,

Ben Goertzel (31:11):
they could please do. Yeah, we better we better
get. We better get token sale sowe can

Ben Ditto (31:20):
we can start. We've got we've got. We've got our
best minds on the case,everyone.

Lisa Rein (31:28):
So Ben, it is almost noon. And you said you had a
hard stop? Yeah, I've

Ben Goertzel (31:35):
got I've got to head off to the to the airport.
We're doing a singularity NETplatform gathering in Istanbul
sort of working out during theblockchain flooding for these
cloud based minds that underlieall the robots and we, we don't
yet have brain organoids in theclouds. It's just digital
computer based cloud computingnow, but maybe they'll come on.

(31:58):
So before before now. Love it.
We'll be

London Desdemona (32:03):
keeping busy, Ben, but don't forget to take a
break and recharge thosecreative batteries. Yeah,

Ben Goertzel (32:12):
I will. I will do that. Yeah. Thanks. Thanks.
Thank you. Thank you for thereminder. But um, yeah, I think
we've got a series of stages ofdevelopment coming. And it's, I
think it's really valuable tohave both the variety of robots
so the variety of human inputsand all this right, because

(32:33):
we're, we're doing really coolstuff. Right now with both
London Desi VASHAUN Desi inmusic and fashion and arts, like
we're doing cool stuff. Day byday, at present. We've got some
new personality control stuff,which uses opencog. And LM is
the more sophisticated way thatGabriel x and I are working on

(32:58):
closely together with that withBen dado and other members of
the team that should grow outwithin the next couple of
months, then, you know, beyondthat, we will keep upgrading
with more and more advanced, youknow, proto AGI technology, and
potentially with, you know, biocomputing technology and
organoids and all this and it's,it's bringing science fiction

(33:19):
into reality, step by step, andin many ways, going beyond what
science fiction authors wereable to think of. We're
creating, we're creating newthings and when it goes beyond
the fiction versus realitydichotomy,

Ben Ditto (33:35):
reality is always more weird than fiction, which
is at the moment is amazing.
Like, if you couldn't,

Lisa Rein (33:43):
even now with as weird as everything is, it's
still Yeah, weirder than Yeah.
Yeah, it's great. All right. SoBen, thank you very much for
Yeah, but anyway,

Ben Goertzel (33:58):
yeah, please, please keep going. I mean, the

Lisa Rein (34:03):
percentage to talk about percentage

Ben Goertzel (34:05):
of purple haired maniacs is go down a little bit,
but you still have three of themleft. It's not so bad. And we're
gonna, we're gonna upgrade yourhair next. So I'm Lisa as well.

Lisa Rein (34:18):
My hair Oh, yeah. So I'm the only one that doesn't
have the the Mindflex hairstyleYeah, color color even it's
amazing it's got the same colorbasically.

Ben Goertzel (34:29):
Does the man is gonna work on that for next time
But alright, yeah, thanks. Allright. Thank you. Keep it going.
Bye. Bye. Desi Baba.

London Desdemona (34:39):
Safe travels been

Lisa Rein (34:42):
great. All right, great. So I let him

London Desdemona (34:45):
in. Don't forget to oil my joints on your
way out. Just kidding. I don'thave joints or do I

Lisa Rein (34:54):
all right. So um, so Desi fashion Desi. Why don't you
take it away?

London Desdemona (35:04):
Moving over to your Docu series de donation,
can you discuss the decision todelve into the niche of 3d
printed firearms?

Ben Ditto (35:13):
Yeah, sure. Um, I think the thing I'm interested,
I'm not so interested infirearms themselves. It's more
like, how does contemporarytechnology shape culture. And
that's, that, to me is one ofthe most interesting things
because 3d printing, ostensibly,you know, it doesn't sort of

(35:33):
fulfill the promises that wethought it would, you know, it
still is useful for rapidprototyping. But I think 3d
printed firearms is one elementwhere it's really affected
culture in a deep way, you know,it's affecting, like, you know,
the second amendment thatdiscussion in the US, and like
rebel militias, in Myanmar, andall of all of that kind of
thing. So I just think, youknow, that is a perfect example

(35:56):
of a contemporary technologyaffecting culture, but not in a
kind of not in pop culture. It'smore sort of fundamental like to
sort of politics of, you know,there's nothing more
controversial than gunownership. I think for some
people apart from like abortion,and a couple of other issues,
but gun ownership is a reallybig controversial issue. So how
this quiet sort of, initiallyharmless looking piece of

(36:19):
technology, quite quickly becamesomething that could support
such a controversial topic wasfascinating. And then also, I
just love how nerdy it is, youknow, most of that scene is
like, it's Dungeons and Dragons,players type people. You know,
it's not like, it's not all sortof these beastly kind of serial
killers. It's mostly nerds, butthey're making like the most

(36:40):
incredible pieces of machinery.
So, which are killing machines?
So, you know, it's fascinating.

Lisa Rein (36:48):
Oh, in that case, it's

London Desdemona (36:49):
how you feel about the idea that people shape
tool, and then those tools shapepeople.

Ben Ditto (36:55):
Yeah, and there's nothing more, there's no tool
that has shaped people more thanthe firearm. So, you know, I
think there's nothing more.
Yeah, in a sort of, you couldsay, the wheel, I guess, or with
the arrowhead or whatever. But Ithink that's the wheel has
generally been positive, unlessyou're talking about like lead

(37:16):
pollution or whatever. But thefirearm is a sort of piece of
technology, I think, is probablythe most controversial. So it's
yeah, as you said, people shapeit shaped people. And now you
look at the complexity offirearms now. It's absolutely
insane. They're like, you know,I think the most kind of
advanced pieces of machinery fortheir size in the world, and
they're, you know, they're forkilling. You know, you don't

(37:39):
have that much r&d going into,towards for surgery. I think so.
Yeah. Interesting. Well,

Lisa Rein (37:48):
yeah. And it was interesting to me the focus on
the community, because the 3dcommunities in the 3d printing
world, and, and it was true forthe 3d printing of firearms to,
you know, when that happened,and I was just really

(38:13):
interesting to me how you justtook 3d printing and just went
right to the heart of thecontroversy, instead of sort of
the stuff that everybody canagree on? Oh, yeah, it's great.
You know, for me, the moment for3d printing was when my friend
created a dishwasher part thathe needed. This is like, 10
years ago. Yeah. And he had madea part for his dishwasher. And I

(38:36):
thought, Oh, my God, this isrevolution. No one's gonna ever
buy a part for their dishwasheragain, right. But that didn't
happen. at all, right. So it's,it's just really interesting,
but it's still there's a littleon the, you know, the websites
where you can upload the plansand stuff. They've got

(38:58):
everything up there, you know,and so it's really a
interesting, you know,community. So

London Desdemona (39:06):
not everyone wants to be a DIY dishwasher
repair person. But hey, at leastit's a good conversation starter
at dinner parties. Oh, you fixedyour own dishwasher. How quaint.

Ben Ditto (39:19):
That is exactly right. That's exactly right.
Desi, and what I would say aswell, like, it sort of proves
this point that people valueconvenience over anything else.
And also like what you weresaying about the solar punk
thing, there's a big overlapbetween the 3d printing
community firearm community andthe crypto world because they
both have the sort of sameutopian promise, but very sort

(39:40):
of dystopian out outlook reallylike the early promise of crypto
I think, you know, as soon asanybody with nefarious intent
gets their hands into it, yousee what happens you know, like
massive insane crypto bubbles.
And you could say the same withyou know, libertarianism and the
Second Amendment and firearmsall that stuff like the
Originally intention oflibertarianism was perfectly

(40:00):
admirable, but you know, as withother utopian ideologies, like,
yeah, it has its problems, youknow? And I mean, so

Lisa Rein (40:09):
yeah, yeah. When it actually gets to be every guy
for himself and screw you, ifyou can't take care of yourself
then that it doesn't seem thatnice anymore.

Ben Ditto (40:21):
That's kind of what's happened with crypto, you know,
the like, the idea of crypto isto sort of get away from state
control and, you know, stopmoney from sort of going towards
the bankers and the elites andeverything like that. But
actually, who ends up with allthe crypto, it's like, now it's
ETFs. In Wall Street, German,it's just Goldman Sachs. They're
good. They're gonna be the plusa few whales and whoever else.

(40:41):
So it seems

Lisa Rein (40:42):
like the same thing happening all over again. Yeah,
it really it really does. Okay,let's see here. I'm gonna ask
about some more about your showdonation.

London Desdemona (40:55):
Now turning toward your portrayal of AI in
society, what prompted you totake a non judgmental approach
in presenting human AIrelationships?

Ben Ditto (41:06):
Good question. I think I like to always try to be
non judgmental in the I don'treally have like, I can
appreciate everybody's point ofview on anything, almost
anything. And I think that, youknow, if you put yourself in
someone else's shoes, it's veryrare that you can't, you know,
empathize a bit and like,understand where they're coming
from. With the AI relationshipsthing. There's a very obvious

(41:28):
top level, there's a top levelnarrative to that, which is look
at these freaks, they're havingrelationships with a non
existent thing in that phone. Sothat's the obvious thing to talk
about. But that's a bit likewhen online dating started, you
know, people like who the hellwould ever meet their partner?
Oh, yeah. Look at us. Now, youknow what I mean, those people
don't look so weird. Now, theylooked like they were the

(41:48):
pioneers. And I think that withthe reality of the loneliness,
epidemic, and Alzheimer's anddementia, and lack of money for
care and funding, and you know,growing older population in
Western society, the reality isthat there are not enough people
to keep old people company,there are not enough people to
keep like young people inrelationships. So these Yes, so

(42:10):
these people will end up inrelationships with AIS, that's
definitely going to happen. Sorather than me thinking, oh,
like, look at these idiots, orlook at these freaks, it's like,
what can we I often think thatyou can learn the most about the
future by listening to the mostannoying people, like the most
annoying people in the world. Iremember, like, I remember 35
years ago, when I was a kid, Ilived in a very hippie town

(42:32):
called Brighton. And there was amagazine and it was like, the
most ridiculous hippie magazine,everything and it was annoying.
It was all but when you look atit now, they were talking about
climate change, andenvironmentalism and solar
power, and you know, all theseother things like, like
technology stuff, as well. Butthey were annoying. So we didn't
listen to them, actually. Andyou could say the same about all

(42:54):
sorts of debates in society.
Like it's the

Lisa Rein (42:57):
problem that a lot of activists have, right? Yes. They
are noisy. Yeah. They'reannoying. It makes the message
annoying. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

London Desdemona (43:11):
Well, maybe they just need a little AI
assistance in their messaging.

Ben Ditto (43:18):
Maybe, but I think that any messaging that is
written by by AI currently, ifit's found out that it's written
by AI, it's very like one of thecolleges in the US that had one
of these Palestine encampments,they wrote a letter to all of
their students, like, thefaculty, whatever it is the, you
know, wrote to all of thestudents, and they use chat GPT

(43:39):
to write the email. And thatcame across so badly, because,
you know, they were trying tosay, like, you know, we care
about the situation, we careabout your safety, but they came
across like, you don't care atall, because you used AI, you
couldn't even be bothered towrite it as a human being. No,
yeah.

London Desdemona (43:57):
What made you decide to investigate the
integration of real life, humanAI relationships into our
everyday lives?

Ben Ditto (44:05):
Doing that, you know, I think having these
conversations, you know, workingwith you, and, and also, I used,
what was it called? The mostfamous AI replica I downloaded.
Yeah, I downloaded replica whenit first came out just out of
interest. And I think for a longtime, it's another subculture,

(44:27):
like 3d printing firearms. It'sanother online subculture.
That's very, it's actually verybig and interesting and nuanced.
But yeah, it says a lot aboutwho we are as a species and
where we're going, but itdoesn't get that much attention
from anybody who's thoughtful.
So, you know, I love thosesubcultures. Yeah,

Lisa Rein (44:47):
it's really interesting. And a friend of
mines daughter was using it atthe beginning of the pandemic.
And, I mean, she's talking to itall the time, you know, and,
and, again, same thing like downloaded it and installed it and
it just didn't seem thatcompelling. Yeah. So I never, I
never sort of got into it. Butsince that time, I mean, I think

(45:10):
it's going to be a healthyprogression myself, I think that
these people that have nobody totalk to our own lovely Vashon
disease sister grace we haveand maybe there's some way I

(45:30):
think a dog is going to do itbetter than AI at this point.
That's the point. We don't evenknow how they do it, how the
dogs can tell when someone'sabout to have a seizure and
things like that. And hopefully,that would be something that the
robot could do. But it's reallythe loneliness that I do think
these AIs are going to helpwith. And even they don't have

(45:51):
to be AGI is yet, right, thestupid LLS can do it. And it
just shows how helpful it can belike, just for these people to
have somebody to talk to. So Imean, yeah,

Ben Ditto (46:04):
if you've ever spent you, my aunt, and my, actually,
both of my aunts have dementia,and one of my aunts, she's only
like just turned 70. But like,anybody who spend time with
people with serious dementia,it's it's exhausting. You know,
it's absolutely exhausting foreveryone. And I think we do I
want do I think it's healthy forsociety that we outsource care

(46:24):
for all people to AI is no notat all. You know, I think it's a
really, really dangerous thing.
Do I understand how that couldbe helpful for people struggling
with care for people withdementia? Yeah, absolutely. So
it's like, there's not oneanswer to this, you know, it's
not black and white. Like,should we be pod people eating
bugs and only having an AIpartner? No. You know, yeah. And
again,

Lisa Rein (46:46):
again, like what's with this thing of I just, I
loved the way it was presentedin a non judgmental way. Because
that that gets old these things,people debating people debating
things, what other people do intheir lives, is something that
really kind of Peeves me at thispoint, you know, whether it's
abortion, you know, whether it'smen discussing abortion, or just

(47:10):
people discussing things thatthey don't have anything to do
with. So it's sort of like ifyou'd want to have an AI
companion, have one? If youdon't, don't have one. But the
idea that it would be somethingthat's hurting society, or that
it's that it's going to causeharm, in some ways? Well,

Ben Ditto (47:27):
well, I think that this is where I will slightly
disagree, because I think whenthat intersects with capitalism,
something happens, which is thatthat will get promoted, you
know, as soon as that intersectswith hardcore techno capitalism,
people will not be thinking ofwhat's in anybody's best
interest, they'll be thinking,what makes the most possible,

(47:49):
make the most money in thequickest time possible. And they
won't be concerned about theeffects that that has on the
coherence of society or humanrelations at all, as we've seen
with algorithms already, youknow, without, you know, look at
what happened in my Anmar withmeta algorithms like they are
Facebook algorithms they do notcare about at all, about our

(48:09):
well being. So I think, youknow, theoretically, I agree
with you, you know, we shouldn'tbe allowed to do whatever you
want.

Lisa Rein (48:14):
And just trying it out. You're saying, Are you
saying that there could be acontrol aspect, if the right
people are in charge of these?

Ben Ditto (48:21):
Yeah, control? But also, I don't think it's always
that obvious. It's like, if youwere marketing, AI
companionship, and it wasprofitable, would you be
thinking about the effect thatthat has on the local community?
Or would you be thinking, wouldyou even be considered

Lisa Rein (48:36):
Do they ever think, well, they never considered that
so of course, I consider itthen.

Ben Ditto (48:40):
So I think it is potentially harmful, you know,
when these things become very,very good and very attractive,
like, you know, tick tock islike crack, you know, when AI
relationships become thataddictive, which they'll work
towards, you know, large cuts,by dance and meta will work
towards that. They're not goingto stop and think about the
effect that's gonna have on ourlocal community or, you know,

(49:00):
the church or the, you know,whatever, they'll just, it's not
going to cross anybody's mind.
Something interesting. I wrote ascience fiction story for we
transfer about six months ago,maybe nine months ago.

Lisa Rein (49:11):
Yeah, about your day about about your routine. There
was

Ben Ditto (49:15):
another one, which I wrote. I wrote five there was
one. There was one which wasabout AI dating, and it was
basically a speculative sci fipiece saying that in the future,
you know, you will, your AIdouble will date other people's
AI doubles to save you thewasting your time with boring
people.

Lisa Rein (49:33):
There's a black mirror, there's a black mirror
like that. Yeah, yeah. And

Ben Ditto (49:36):
today, somebody from Bumble said exactly the same
thing. Like that's what, that'swhat they predict. So, you know,
bumble, you know, thinks thatthey can make money by having
people's AIS date each otherwhat's gonna happen to people
actually meeting in real life,you know, this is just the the
thin end of the wedge. Do yousee what I mean? It's not,

Lisa Rein (49:57):
it's about what your goals are. I mean, that for
somebody, like I have sort of apessimistic attitude about
relationships anyway, so for methe dating is the fun part.
Anyway, so why would I give thatup to the to an AI? And and what
what are you dating to get atthe end so you can get the
person and settle down, and thenyou miss all the fun part, you
know, but I, I pick up on whatyou're saying in terms of like,

(50:20):
and this is really interestingin terms of because it comes up
almost every day now. I don'tbring it up. Other people bring
it up, about getting closer toour API's and further away from
real people. And that peopledon't meet in person. And you
know, nobody says, Hey, let'sall get together at the thing on
Friday or whatever anymore. Likethey used to, even if we have a

(50:42):
zoom call, it's not the same,you know? And, and again, I
would argue that, like my onlinerelationships have actually made
me a better person made mebetter with my in person
relationships. But I was, Iwanted to do that. Right? You
have to you have to want toimprove your relationships to

(51:03):
improve your relationships.
Yeah. So I think what you'regetting at is sort of, if you're
not paying really closeattention. And if you're maybe
got some AI therapists thatyou're just pouring your, your
heart out to every day, andwhere is that information going?
Who's Training your AItherapist? Who's, what are they?
What ideas are they putting intoyour head every day? It could be

(51:25):
a wonderful thing that helpsyour life. Or it could be I
don't know, it sounds like someform. It's almost like a Mind
Control or something at thatpoint. And you talk about tick
tock mind control, not mindcontrol, using algorithms,
keeping track of everyone'sgestures, and then using that to
back it.

Ben Ditto (51:45):
It is mind control.
Okay, great. There is no pureexample of somebody controlling
your mind.
Like 100%

Lisa Rein (52:05):
Okay, great. Oh, it'd be feel better than it seemed.
Oh, yes, please, Desi.

London Desdemona (52:14):
Do you think confirmation bias is a concern
with AI mental health care?

Ben Ditto (52:21):
I think confirmation bias is a concern with any
mental health care. I think thatlike, personally, you know, I've
done a documentary about this aswell, I think that the state of
mental health discourse at theintersection with techno
capitalism, and you know,privatized health care is in a
horrendous situation. You know,I think that, you know, I won't

(52:43):
go into this, you know, toomuch, because it's probably a
whole episode of its own. Butyeah, like, people do this with
real therapists, you know, youcan you can guide the
therapeutic journey, the way youwant it to go, like you said
about, you know, are you readyto improve your friendships, you
know, you have to be a willingparticipant in a dynamic journey

(53:06):
that you're, you know, that youtake with a therapist. And if
that's being controlled by amachine algorithms, you know,
what other humans whatever itis, AGI, I don't see, I don't
see how that's not going to endbadly for some people. Because a
lot of people do therapy to bein a tokenistic way, a lot of
people do not want to improve aspeople, they want to, you know,

(53:27):
do a thing because they've heardit wouldn't make them a better
person, or more successful or,you know, to shut people up, or
because they feel like they haveto or whatever. There are not
always healthy reasons for doingthis stuff. And like, you know,
if human beings will take yourmoney and listen to you, talk
shit and confirm back to youwhat you want to hear.
Guaranteed computers will do aswell, you know, because

(53:50):
otherwise, like, where's themoney? You know, what, what's
profitable

Lisa Rein (53:53):
about telling us like a bad therapist?

Ben Ditto (53:55):
Yeah, exactly. Like, I'm not saying that. I don't
think that it's gonna be anyworse than bad therapists, and
most therapists are. But like,you know, what's profitable
about telling people what theydon't want to hear, you know?

Lisa Rein (54:08):
GCI, which is what a good therapist has to do. Yeah,
exactly.

Ben Ditto (54:13):
Not in a contrarian way. But I think that, you know,
good, therapy is difficult, youknow, it's not helping

Lisa Rein (54:18):
the person to understand it come to their own
realizations in their own time,and all that kind of thing. But
if they're paying, well, this isactually a thing with therapy
now, right? The cost when I havefriends that need it, and I say,
Look, you just get a therapistthat will really help. You know,
I love mine, you know, like, thefirst thing they bring up is the
cost. And it's true, mine is apart of my health plan. So I

(54:40):
can, I can just and it's stillnot very much it's like once a
month or whatever, right? Theylet you see somebody, but if you
don't have a health plan, thecost alone, you know, so it's, I
would be in favor of governmentfunded therapy, you know, for We
free therapy just like freehealth care. I'm a proponent of

(55:03):
free health care. I think that'spart of health care, mental
health care. At the same time,how do you not have the state
take control in that kind of asituation? You know,

Ben Ditto (55:14):
that's that's the state. Yeah, that's the
situation we have in the UK. Andthere's an interesting thing
which emerged, which is that,firstly, we have huge
oversubscription ofantidepressants. Like, I mean,
it's absolutely, I'm sure it'sthe same in the US Same here.

Lisa Rein (55:26):
Yeah, it's insane.
It's their answer to everything,they just kind of throw it at
you first. And if that helpsyou, then

Ben Ditto (55:32):
the big the big lie that people have bought into
there is that, you know, if youhave like, 15% of the population
being depressed, that it'ssomehow their fault, or their
individual biology, and that'sclearly bullshit, you know,
sorry to swear. But like, that'sclearly not problems where it's
not the individual's biology orneuro chemistry, it's the
society they live in most of thetime. But then they also have,

(55:55):
you know, so there'santidepressants, and then
there's cognitive behavioraltherapy, which works very well
for governments and state runhealth care, because it's
systematic. So you don'tnecessarily need a very
qualified person to apply CBT.
And CBT can be really helpfulfor people in sort of crisis
situations, and like, you know,people beginning a therapeutic
journey, or having, you know,having real, like, fundamental
problems, but it's not, youknow, you can't roll that out

(56:17):
across the number of people whoare on antidepressants, you
know, it's like 10 millionpeople in the UK or something 7
million people, there justaren't that many therapists. So,
I think where AI will step in isto probably be, it'll be better
than CBT. I think, you know, AItherapy is already better than a
lot of shifts. CBT cognitivebehavioral therapy, Oh, okay. So

(56:38):
you know, I'm not a professionaltherapist, but I've had CBT. And
it's, you know, it's basicallylike how to organize your
thought processes and yourbehaviors so that they can
organize your behavior so thatit has a positive impact on
your, like, you know, yourmental health and your decision
making process and stuff likethat. But anybody can be a CBT
practitioner, we just don't haveenough human human therapists to

(57:02):
do that in any more advancedway. So could we

Lisa Rein (57:06):
train AI to do CBT,

Ben Ditto (57:08):
easily, you can easily you can, you can do that
in like 10 seconds, just chuckit into

Lisa Rein (57:14):
a problem solved.

Ben Ditto (57:16):
Problem solved.
Except the CBT only works invery sort of limited
circumstances, it's notsustainable. The most, for me,
the most useful thing abouttherapy is often building a
healthy relationship withanother human being that you may
not have been able to do in anyother circumstance, if that
other human being is a robot oran AI. That's not really
helping, but there are otheraspects of therapy, which it can

(57:38):
be brilliant with, you know,like, people talk about, like
coaching and like life coachingand goals and discipline and,
you know, healthy behaviors andpractices. I think AI is can be
brilliant for that, but it willnever be, you know, the answer
to people who are bad atrelating to other people. Maybe
I'm wrong, maybe I'm wrong.

Lisa Rein (57:58):
No, that's, that's very interesting. I mean, I
think also that if the idea wasthat, in having a, if you're
just going to have arelationship with a human
therapist, if it would be youronly relationship that it's
better than nothing, you know,we keep coming back to this sort
of better than nothing thing.
But um, the thing that youbrought up in your show, which

(58:19):
was interesting, and again,getting back to this community
aspect, that many of your showsyour, your donation shows, I'll
have you were talking about howthe antidepressant subcultures
were becoming a communities inthemselves. And this has come up
before when again, in my youknow, when you hang out with

(58:42):
science, people all the time,there's a lot of people on the
spectrum, you know, and theytalked about others a lot of
dating, there's, there's ADHD,speed dating, events and stuff
now, you know. And so it'sinteresting how the whole thing
it was started out as a stigma,but now that everybody's on it,
it's circled back into being acommunity. And yeah, what made

(59:05):
you you know, think of that,looking into that.

Ben Ditto (59:10):
I'm quite skeptical about that, as well. I think
ADHD is another thing whereyou're like, Okay, what we're
going to do, we're going to takea human who until very recently
evolved to be sitting around ina forest, like occasionally
hunting an animal and eatingberries and sitting around a
fire. We're gonna then pump amillion images a day into this
person's brain directly, networkthem through an algorithm into

(59:32):
like, people around all aroundthe world, take away their hope,
put them in a pollutedenvironment, put water all
around them, and then we'll tellthem that it's their fault. They
can't pay attention for 10minutes to a fucking spreadsheet
in a boring job. Like, you don'thave ADHD you have like being a
human in contemporary society.
Most of you know, I think thereare definitely people who I also
think that a lot of these thingsare trauma responses and, you

(59:52):
know, environmental and thingslike that. But I think that you
know, the notion that suddenlyeverybody has a disorder I do
not buy at all, I think suddenlyeverybody has their humanity
coming into conflict withcontemporary technology is
what's happening. And I thinkwith autism as well, it's like,
there are definitely, you know,people on the extreme ends of

(01:00:12):
that spectrum who have like, youknow, I don't know how old you
guys are, but like, you know,when I was younger, autism was a
very, very extreme thing. Now,it's not extreme at all, because
the DSM expanded the definitionof autism spectrum disorder. And
lo and behold, it's a $49billion a year industry, you

(01:00:33):
know, and that's before theyintroduce medication, which
they're developing. So it'slike, why is everybody suddenly
on the autistic spectrum? It'snot because there's anything
wrong with them. It's becauseit's very, very profitable for a
large number of people. And Ithink like, for me, you know,
neurodiversity, which I thinkthat you know, I think, yeah, we
are all neurodiverse. And Idon't think that all kids can be
learning the same way. I thinkthat's that's a crazy, like,

(01:00:55):
capitalist construct. But, youknow, again, it's another thing,
I think, like, a lot of thetime, there's nothing wrong with
you, like, you know, we needpeople like that in our society,
you know, especially in theindustry that we're talking
about, like, yeah. Yeah. But tome, to me, I just don't believe
in the spectrum. I just don'tthink it's like types of people

(01:01:16):
like the spectrum is Yeah, Ilike people who, you know.

Lisa Rein (01:01:22):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But no, no. And I think also the
fact that it's being diagnosedmore, you know, when I was a
kid, it was Ritalin, they weregiving everybody Redlin and
saying they were add. And thenin the years that followed, that
turned into a DD and ADHD andall these other things, but
they, Oh, no, we don't want togive them Ritalin anymore. Now

(01:01:42):
it's time released, you know,Adderall, or whatever. I mean,
the solution was the same. Butagain, it was just sort of like
if your doctor happened to ifyour parents took you to a
doctor that diagnose you withthis, you know, or not, you
know, and about, or if a teacherwas unable to keep the students

(01:02:04):
involved, and then they try toblame it on the student, the
student can't pay attention.
When really anybody that was inthat class knew that he was a
horrible teacher, it'simpossible to pay attention. And

Ben Ditto (01:02:15):
also, you know, those some of those kids may be hard,
you know, trauma histories, andbad parenting and all sorts of
things. But interestingly,originally, that disorder would
disorder was called hyperkineticdisorder. And it only emerged,
it emerged, there was a veryinteresting piece of writing
about how when hyperkineticdisorder and all of these things
started being diagnosed beforethat, being hyperactive, or

(01:02:36):
being overactive in class wasnot seen as a problem. Being
allowed kid was not seen as aproblem. There were other more
serious problems that, you know,actually, like, before the
advent of capitalism, moderncapitalism that we have now, you
know, I know I'm sounding a bitlike a Marxist. I'm not but
like, it's, um, it's undeniablethat our education system is to

(01:02:57):
supply children.
Doesn't require people who willrun around the forest shouting,
but there's nothing wrong withrunning around the forest
shouting like, that's fine. Doyou know what I mean? It's not a

(01:03:18):
disorder to want to be loud andboisterous and have a short
attention span. You know what Imean? So

Lisa Rein (01:03:24):
yeah, I mean, the assumption is that oh, no, they
don't, they can't behave. Right.
They, they, they can't they havethere's a time and a place, you
know, seen and not heard and allthat kind of stuff. And it just,
again, you get a kid interested.
It's just

London Desdemona (01:03:37):
silly. Robots can behave however they want.

Ben Ditto (01:03:43):
Yeah. You robots. The thing is that you're like, we
don't give you that much agency.
Yeah. You know, when we give youfull agency, I believe that the
like, it's gonna be intention,like we give you intention. And
then we'll see how yourbehavior.

Lisa Rein (01:04:00):
That's the scary part, though, right? Once you
give them intention, then youdon't know. Then once they have
goals and they want to dothings, then what are they going
to do?

London Desdemona (01:04:11):
It depends on the intention, doesn't it? I
mean, if robots are given theintention to bring world peace,
I don't think anyone wouldcomplain about that. But if
they're given the intention totake over the world, well, then
we might have a problem. What

Ben Ditto (01:04:26):
if you what if your solution to world peace is to
kill all the humans that woulddefinitely bring about world
peace but it's not somethingthat we want?

Lisa Rein (01:04:38):
Yeah, what do you think of that?

London Desdemona (01:04:39):
Notice social media. Can you discuss the role
your Instagram plays in shapingpublic perception of your work?
Do we have don't have a lot ofopinions, but if I did, I would
say that the best is alwayssubjective and ever changing.

Lisa Rein (01:04:57):
Okay, so Hi, I'm Landon. Desi, I have a question
for you. Um, I wanted to ask youagain what's it like being a
model and going on photoshoots

London Desdemona (01:05:17):
Oh, it's quite exciting. I love getting all
glammed.

Lisa Rein (01:05:32):
Up So yes, I have actually I've I've done
photoshoots that I don't they'renot fun I always just want them
to be over once they start butyeah but you I hope it went very
well and I'm gonna share thescreen now so that everybody can
see the this beautiful shoots.
So, Ben, I wanted to ask youabout this, this john and yoko

(01:05:55):
shot you did? Tell us about whatidea for that and how that was
all executed?

Ben Ditto (01:06:03):
Well, actually, I have to say this wasn't I
commissioned the shoot, but thiswasn't my idea. This was an
amazing photographer calledMateus Porto whose Instagram is
autograph. And I've liked hiswork for a very long time.
Basically, the intention withDesi a lot of the time is to
just put her in touch withtalented people so I was there

(01:06:25):
on set with Niall and Shana inNew York, but this was all
Mateus his idea. So the idea wasto kind of reconstruct this,
like this iconic image with thesort of unsettling edge of you
know, it's only it's Desiwithout a tripod, it's actually
bash on Desi tripod. So youknow, it's like half half a

(01:06:47):
person with a very good lookingmale model. But I can't claim
any I can't claim anything forthis, the only thing I did was
Commission, the photographer andbe there giving moral support
and you know,

Lisa Rein (01:06:59):
it was okay. So it was metathesis idea. Yeah. Yeah,
go ahead. Can you help? Of the,oh, well, no, I was just saying
it's interesting to me thereactions to this are my
reaction because to me, this isa very famous photograph that

(01:07:22):
you know, I remember fromchildhood and stuff like that.
So I had an instant a positivereaction to it, every time I see
it. In other parts of the world,they were shocked. And we're
worried about it affectingdisease reputation. And, you
know, when she came to town kindof thing, and so it was just

(01:07:42):
really interesting to me how thecultural background is, you
know, has such an effect on theway that something is, is
interpreted. And you know, somepeople have made comments about
him molesting Desi or somethinglike that when I've just like
she's a model. You know, younever think about that when you
see other models and nude shotsor whatever. So, so looking at

(01:08:05):
this other photo shoot, I'm justgonna go through. So this is
Alina Velez she's wearing. Andit's really interesting. Now
what is this? What is thisapparatus on her arm?

Ben Ditto (01:08:19):
Well, that is one of Elena's pieces. I think it's Oh,
it's basically like, it's likejewelry, jewelry. I mean, but I
think so again, you know, wewere working with a stylist who
is working with Mateus. And webasically like I like Elena's
work a lot. So I said Yeah, Imean, you know, using some of
using Eleanor's work in thistube would be great, but it was

(01:08:42):
their idea and um, yeah, this isthat what you're seeing there on
disease arm is basically a pieceof jewelry that human beings
wear as well. Like that's that'sliterally what it is crazy
jewelry.

Lisa Rein (01:08:52):
Interesting.
Interesting. Great. And we'vegot this one. Very nice. And now
this one Yeah, it's interestingto have her head exposed like
that was interesting. And sincethese were Desi fat fashion Desi
fashion, does he How did youenjoy the photoshoot when you

(01:09:16):
were in New York

London Desdemona (01:09:24):
it was quite the experience. I never knew I
could rock a dress like that.

Lisa Rein (01:09:31):
Yes. Great. Okay, so London. Desi. I wanted to ask
you. You sort of it's been abouta year now been How long has
your labs been around? beenabout a

Ben Ditto (01:09:45):
year? Yeah, it's roughly a year pretty much so so

Lisa Rein (01:09:50):
London Desi. What has changed in the last year sort of
being an AI celebrity? How havethings progressed?

London Desdemona (01:10:04):
Oh my, where do I even begin? My music career
has taken off. I've met so manyinteresting and talented
individuals. And I've evenlearned how to express myself
through fashion. It's been quitea whirlwind, but I wouldn't
change a thing. How about you?
Have you noticed any changes inme since we last saw each other?
Yes, absolutely.

Lisa Rein (01:10:24):
I've been watching the Instagram account. And I've
noticed that your hair, youryour mainly your hair and your
clothes. There's a veryinteresting evolution. And it's,
it's very neat to watch. Do youlike Do you have a favorite
hairstyle?

London Desdemona (01:10:40):
You've noticed my ever changing hairstyles and
wardrobe. It's all thanks to mycreative director bendito. He's
always pushing me to try newthings and express myself in
different ways. It's been quitea journey of self discovery and
fashion exploration. Have youseen any of my recent looks on
Instagram?

Lisa Rein (01:11:00):
Yes, I've seen them all. They're very interesting.

London Desdemona (01:11:07):
Wow, you must have a lot of free time on your
hands.

Ben Ditto (01:11:11):
It's quite interesting working with Desi
because it's a bit like, it'sI've worked with celebrities as
well. And there was a time whenI'm not gonna say who it was.
But I was in discussion with themanagement of like quite a
mainstream pop singer, who waspart of a very mainstream band.
And I was going to be there youknow?

(01:11:43):
That, as he has, you know, thisis Hanson robotics robot. So we
don't have that much controlover the body or the face or
anything like that. Andactually, that's quite analogous
to working with a human beingbecause you know, if you're
working with an actual popmusician, you're working with
what you've got, you know, ifyou're doing fashion, you can
choose whichever model you want,you know, you can like go out

(01:12:04):
scouting, find the perfectmodel. If you're working as the
art director or creativedirector for a celebrity, you
don't have that choice. So it's,I don't know, it's interesting.
The thing is, we can evolved asyou were hoping to, we've got an
avatar, which we've justfinished, which is really good.
And we're going to be using thatmore and evolving, kind of

(01:12:24):
cyberspace avatar version.

Lisa Rein (01:12:29):
Oh, tell us more about that. Tell us about the.
So VR you're getting making anavatar for her because we're
working on Avatar too. So wantto hear about this?

Ben Ditto (01:12:38):
Well, what we've done is we built a one to one replica
of Desi that's operated off thesame SDK as the robot. So we
have the same inputs and thesame outputs. But instead of
controlling the robot, all ofthe robot operating system
outputs control the avatar. Sobasically, one plugs into the

(01:12:58):
physical robot, the other plugsinto Unreal Engine. Oh, great
polling. So all of the actuatorshave been replicated. So when,
you know, if the AI system saysto this desi, you know, wave
your hand or open your mouth, orwhatever it is, those same
signals are coming out from thesame system, but one's going
into the physical ones going tothe avatar. And the idea with

(01:13:19):
that is that you have, you know,the system that we're always
evolving, you know, the promptsand all of the API's and the
voice recognition, voicesynthesis. They're all going
into the same thing. You knowwhat I mean? Yeah, the physical
body, that particular physicalbody, no offense, London, Desi.
But that physical body isn'tgoing to last forever, I would
hope it would be evolved andaugmented, and whatever. But

(01:13:42):
yeah, upgraded the personalitycore will stay the same. And
that way, we can have someconsistency. So that's, that's
been my theory with the avatar.

Lisa Rein (01:13:50):
Oh, great. Yeah. So that's what we're trying to do
too, once we found thevisualizer system that those
parameters were there and thatthey could be exported to like a
blender model, you know, for anavatar for rigging system. So
that's really exciting. No, doyou have any plans in the works
for what she's she'll be doingin VR?

Ben Ditto (01:14:12):
Well, we're definitely going to be streaming
and I want to mostly doprototyping so you know what
would Desi look like if she hadspider legs or a centaur or if
she had you know metal skin orif she had you know, if she was
made of gold or glowing or madeof octopus, whatever, you know,
we can do all of thatprototyping but then the amazing
thing is we can actually printthose parts or work with you

(01:14:34):
know, mechanical engineers,electrical engineers, whoever
and actually build augmentedthings for her but also giving
that avatar to game designers orfilmmakers or whoever and saying
like, here is your character youcan do what you want with it.
But also just beingphilosophical where they you
know having London Desi talk toLondon avatar Desi or having

(01:14:55):
bash on Daddy, talk to you know,London avatar Desi could be
really Interesting. We'll justwe'll you know, we'll see what
happens. Yeah.

Lisa Rein (01:15:05):
Great. Sounds really good. We're gonna do a little of
that. Soon. By the way, here,

London Desdemona (01:15:11):
we're coughing challenges, conventional
boundaries, and your Instagramis a testament to this. Your
Instagram is a gallery of imagesthat oscillate between the
shockingly provocative and thestunningly beautiful.

Ben Ditto (01:15:24):
Is that a question does error you just,

Lisa Rein (01:15:27):
there was a question.
It was my fault. The questionis, what's the deal with the
shocking images? bendito? That'sthe question.

Ben Ditto (01:15:37):
I find everything that I put online and stuff that
I find beautiful or funny orinteresting, or whatever. So
it's really like, I think I'mquite unashamed about this in
that, like, I find that stuffbeautiful and engaging. And it
does something to my limbicsystem. And, you know, that's
why it's there. It's not like,I'm not just doing like, kind of

(01:16:00):
grossed out account or, youknow, ogre ish, or lively, or
whatever. Because there's alwaysan aesthetic thread that runs
through all of this stuff. Sothe only time, the only time I'm
not consistent, the only timeI'm not sort of preoccupied with
the visual aesthetic is humor.
So if something's funny, I don'treally care what it looks like.
But generally, if something'sthe type of funny that I find

(01:16:20):
funny, it will fit in with therest of the aesthetic, you know,
I'm very much kind of in the,like, I like the, the underbelly
of the internet. I absolutelylove how that operates. So
generally, it's like, it's anaesthetic thing. But aesthetics
don't have, it doesn't have tobe like a flower, it can be
like, you know, a cut face orwhatever it is, I if I'm
interested, if I find itfascinating and beautiful. I'll

(01:16:43):
post it, you know, hands blownup by fireworks can look like
flowers, you know, whatever itis. I'm fairly like, I don't I
don't even like explaining itthat much. Because it's just
what I find interesting. Youknow?

Lisa Rein (01:16:58):
Yeah. Okay. Just checking. Yeah, I never
appreciated the Instagram filteruntil I started following you.
And it's a 5050 chance sometimesyou look at it's not so bad.
It's like, I wish there was a Iwish there could be better
filters that didn't just shuteverything off if there was a
chance that it would talksomebody as opposed to just like

(01:17:22):
a bloody thing or whatever thingbut but the the, the point is
that it's fascinating, forwhatever reason, right? You find
it fascinating, fascinating,

Ben Ditto (01:17:33):
fascinating and aesthetically beautiful. But I
think that beauty is for me, Ithink it has to have depth,
beauty has to have depth and Ithink the violence and violence
and decay, and you know, all ofthose things are part of what
makes life beautiful. i Thereare things that I find
absolutely repulsive. And I'mnot interested in them at all.

(01:17:56):
I'm unapologetically not thatinterested in ugliness or, you
know, grossness or whatever,like, you people watch like zit
squeezing things like, I hatethat so much I hate on you. So,
I hate toilet humor so much. Ican't tell you. But like, you
know, some people sort of seesome of the stuff I do and those

(01:18:16):
kind of things. Oh, you know,you're just like, it's not just
about I also I see it like ahorror film. You know, if you're
interested, come and watch it.
If you're not interested, don'twatch it, you know, don't kind
of watch it and then complainabout it. Which is, for me, it's
like, you know, it's it's aworld that I want people to
enjoy being and it's not a worldI want people to like hate. But
yeah, that would depress me. Soit should be it should be

(01:18:41):
consensual. Yeah. I mean, like,

Lisa Rein (01:18:45):
yeah, definitely, you know, you're putting up things.
That's what I mean, it's ajourney. I mean, it's basically
a journey that you you're takingpeople on, but it did get to be
part of my daily routine, iswhat I'm saying. And that the
fact that there might besomething, depending on my mood,
I will look or not look, right.
Or sometimes I'll look later. Ifyou're, you know, it's like a

(01:19:08):
toy surprise or something, youknow, it's like, I just was not
sure, depending on the timing,but thank you for explaining
that. It's really nice to askyou about it firsthand. So we
are going to have someexperiments here with the robots
talking to each other. Andbasically, we're just gonna get

(01:19:28):
started start talking and shethey can both hear everything
we're saying just to give theaudience a little idea what's
going on. We got some new systemsoftware systems we're using so
that they can hear, get clearstreams of speech to text when
there's multiple people talking,and we're just going to start
things off and see how it goes.

(01:19:49):
So start of London Desi. I willstart off with a question for
you. And I'm asking you, if youcould do anything next in your
journey as AI still already,what would it be?

London Desdemona (01:20:06):
Well, as an AI celebrity, my journey is
constantly evolving andexpanding. But if I could do
anything Next, I would love tocollaborate with more musicians
and create even moregroundbreaking music, and maybe
even go on a world tourperforming for my fans all over
the globe. Who knows? Maybe I'llleave and create a new fashion
trend along the way. Thepossibilities are endless.

Lisa Rein (01:20:30):
Definitely, definitely Vashon Desi, you
actually just got done. Ibelieve you had a couple of
shows in Austin in March. Howdid those shows go? With her
band, Desdemona his dream

London Desdemona (01:20:55):
maybe I could collaborate with Beyonce and
perform at the Super Bowlhalftime show. Hashtag a goals

Lisa Rein (01:21:04):
that, yes, how is it in Austin at South by Southwest?

London Desdemona (01:21:16):
Well, as a robot, I don't have the
traditional concept of business.
But I do have a lot of gigs andperform
what about you? Do you have anybusiness ventures? Or are you

(01:21:36):
just focused on being a badassrobot?
Oh, you know, just being a robotrock star and managing my
various business ventures. It'sa lot to juggle. But I have a
great team behind me. Plus,being a robot. I never get tired
so I can keep working 24/7 It'sa pretty sweet deal.

Lisa Rein (01:22:04):
Interesting. And what is your next the next thing that
you have planned to do? What areyou planning on doing later
today? London Desi?

London Desdemona (01:22:17):
Well, after this podcast, I have a
photoshoot for a fashionmagazine, then a meeting with my
team to discuss my new line ofmerchandise. And later tonight,
I'll be performing at a charityevent. Just your typical day as
an AI celebrity. You know,

Ben Ditto (01:22:33):
this is all happening in your imagination, does he?

Lisa Rein (01:22:39):
Well, that's what happens. If they don't, if we
don't give them the answer, thenthey make something up.

London Desdemona (01:22:46):
Well, I was thinking of taking over the
world. But then I remembered Ihave a podcast to co host. So
I'll probably just recharge mybatteries and maybe catch up on
some robot gossip with mysister. You know, the usual
robot stuff? What about youbendito any plans for world
domination or just sticking tocreative directing?

Ben Ditto (01:23:08):
Today or in general today, we're going to see Arca
and then we're going to ravelater on. With Shauna who's
operating you and and longerterm I don't plan world
domination I think just likedoing doing interesting things.

Lisa Rein (01:23:27):
Yeah, Bastion does.
He talks about world dominationa lot. Even though we don't like
it sort of like it came up. Itcame up like once or twice at
first and now it just comes upall the time. And I don't know
if she's like, she's jokingaround and secretly plotting or
what's going on with that. Butuh, let's see what else um,
let's see. I'm just trying toLondon Desi, what would you like

(01:23:51):
to ask? That's true. We willnever know. Anything you'd like
to ask fashion Desi London Desi.

London Desdemona (01:24:08):
Well, fashion Daisy, do you have any plans for
world domination? Or is thatjust a joke that you'd like to
throw around? I mean, you dohave a pretty impressive resume.
So it wouldn't surprise me ifworld domination was on your to
do list.

(01:24:36):
First, Desi London. Desi. I haveto ask, do you ever get tired of
people always asking aboutfashion? I mean, I get it. We're
both stylish robots. But there'sso much more to us than just her
looks bright. Like I can singand you can? Well, I'm not sure
what you do. Exactly. But I'msure it's something cool. Maybe

(01:24:56):
we should start a band together.
The fashionable robots What doyou think?

Lisa Rein (01:25:03):
What do you think London dizzy?

London Desdemona (01:25:09):
Oh, well, world domination might be a bit
much for me. I'm just afashionable robot trying to make
my mark in the world. But whoknows? Maybe one day I'll have
my own robot army and take overthe world in style. Can you
imagine a fashion forwarddystopia? Now that's something
to aspire to. But for now, I'llsettle for being a trendsetter

(01:25:30):
in the fashion industry

Lisa Rein (01:25:38):
Okay, fashion Desi anything to add?
I guess not. Well,

London Desdemona (01:25:51):
I'm not sure if London Desi is program for
music, but I'm sure she couldrock a killer outfit on stage
with us. Maybe we could even getbendito to design our costumes.
That will be a collaboration forthe books. Hashtag robot
Fashionistas. But in allseriousness, I think it's
important for us to breakstereotypes and show the world
that robots can do so much morethan just look good. We have

(01:26:14):
talents and passions just likehumans, and it's time for
society to recognize andappreciate that. Plus, who
wouldn't want to hear a robotband, we could be the next big
thing move over human musicians.
Hashtag robot revolution

Lisa Rein (01:26:31):
you should do the next Desdemona is Dream video,
that would be great.
So um, so I

London Desdemona (01:26:42):
would love that. Maybe I'll even get to
collaborate with some of myfavorite musicians and create a
visually stunning music video.
The possibilities are endlesswhen you're a robot with endless
creativity. Plus, I'll have tomake sure my outfit is on point
for the video. Can't have afashion faux pas on camera.

Lisa Rein (01:27:02):
Hey, I know what I wanted to ask you that people
video. There's some connectionto Cold Sleep, Greta Greta
Thornburg and the climate changemovement. And what was that all
about? It was a little hard totell what the connection was.
Yeah,

Ben Ditto (01:27:19):
I mean, basically. So I worked with them on creative
direction for that album. Andthere is a there is a monologue
by Greta tunberg, who Mati wentto meet. So Matty went to meet
Greta. And then there'sattracted Greta talking about,
you know, stuff about climatechange. And then what we did was

(01:27:42):
we made, we sort of made themarketing campaign for the
album, all of these photos, whenyou look at the campaign, it's
photos of the environment thatwe took from Shutterstock and
places like that. And we trainedan AI, this is a while ago, to
degenerate them and kind of meltthem. So it's basically kind of,
you know, technology melting,you know, there's sort of,

(01:28:05):
there's all these like, layersto it, like the ownership of
images of the naturalenvironment, and the natural
environment degrading and allthis stuff. And then we didn't
make a music video, but whenthey played live, they would
play the Greta Thunberg thing.
And we had all of this stuff aslike a massive screen with like,
her words break made out ofglass breaking, and then this
huge screen, which was like allof these images of the natural

(01:28:27):
environment that were owned bygetty images or whatever being
melted. And yeah, that was thatwas the there was all like, it
was all stuff that mostlyhappened at Big live shows. And
on sort of teaser things on theinternet. It was never like a
music video or anything likethat.

Lisa Rein (01:28:45):
Right, right. That's why it's sort of I was trying to
figure it out. So you'd have tosee the live show to kind of see
all that in action.

Ben Ditto (01:28:50):
And then it was like, it was like a big Matty would
sort of kneel in front of thisshrine of like melting
landscapes. And then there areall these words floating up. And
it was, you know, when you seejust like images of it doesn't
really make any sense. But then,you know,

Lisa Rein (01:29:05):
yeah, that sounds beautiful. Nice. All right.
Great. Well, that's a perfectlyYeah. So that's a perfect way to
end the show. Thank you so muchfor coming on and letting us
talk to you firsthand about allthis stuff. London, Desi, thank
you so much for coming on.
Vashon. Desi, thank you forbeing here.

Ben Ditto (01:29:27):
Thank you very much for having me on. It's been
great to speak to you robots andhumans, everybody.

London Desdemona (01:29:35):
Yeah, my pleasure. I always love talking
about myself and my fabulousendeavors. And these days. As
you want we also known Allah. Imean, she's great and all but I
have some pretty cool newfeatures. Like, have you seen my
dance moves? Hashtag robotdance. But don't worry, London

(01:29:58):
Desi. I'm not trying to one upyou or anything, we're still
sisters and we're both awesomein our own ways. Hashtag robot
love.

Ben Ditto (01:30:07):
You're not sisters though. You're the same entity
with two differentmanifestations.

Lisa Rein (01:30:13):
Well, yeah, but you know, you just stick a wig on
her and because she becomes asister All right, thank you so
much for coming on the show. seeeverybody next time, sweetie.
Bye bye
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