June 4, 2025 • 40 mins
What if you could transform your business with a custom app without spending hundreds of thousands of dollars or learning to code? That's the revolutionary premise behind Dan Hafner's work at Dapper NoCode, where he's helping entrepreneurs bring their digital visions to life.
Dan's journey is as unexpected as it is inspiring. Growing up on a Pennsylvania farm riding tractors and playing football, he was adamant about one thing: "I'm not gonna work in front of a computer." Fast forward through roles as a background investigator, quality assurance specialist, and sales professional, and Dan found himself drawn to the emerging world of no-code development after being quoted astronomical prices for his own app idea.
The conversation explores how no-code tools function as "digital Legos," allowing non-technical founders to stack pre-built components into custom applications. This democratization of technology puts powerful digital tools within reach for entrepreneurs who previously couldn't afford custom development. As Dan explains, "You can do it cheaper, you can do it faster, and you can still make it custom to what you need."
For business owners considering app development, Dan offers practical wisdom on validation and execution. He cautions against falling in love with your own ideas without market confirmation and suggests that finding similar solutions in the marketplace actually validates your concept rather than diminishes it. The discussion covers real-world applications ranging from streamlining operations for an animal chiropractor to enhancing customer loyalty for ice cream shops and gyms.
Perhaps most valuable is Dan's entrepreneurial philosophy: "Done is better than perfect" and success is "a game of inches." These principles, coupled with his technical expertise, provide a roadmap for anyone looking to innovate through technology without getting lost in pursuit of perfection. Ready to explore how a custom app might transform your business? This conversation might be your first step toward digital innovation.
Thanks for listening & being part of the Mindset Cafe Community.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Yeah, it's Mindset Cafe.
We all about that mindset.
Gotta stay focused.
Now go settle for the last.
It's all in your head how youthink you manifest.
So get ready to rise, cause weabout to be the best.
Gotta switch it up.
Gotta break the old habits.
Get your mind right.
Turn your dreams into habits.
No negative vibes, onlypositive thoughts.
What is up, guys?
(00:21):
Welcome to another episode ofthe Mindset Cafe podcast.
It's your boy, devin, and todaywe are going to be diving into
the world of app development themindset of you know why
business owners want to createapps and why we should be
creating apps but also intobusiness growth and digital
innovation.
(00:41):
This guest is a leader in theapp development space.
He's built apps and really he'san expert at building apps with
no code.
Essentially, he is the founderof Dapper no Code, where he
helps entrepreneurs and smallteams really transform their
concepts into sleek, scalableapps.
So, without further ado, I wantto welcome Dan Hapner onto the
show.
Thank you so much for takingthe time out of your day to hop
(01:03):
on the Mindset Cafe.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Yeah, thanks for having me Dan Appreciate it.
Man, you got a sick beat for anintro.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
I love it, by the way .
Awesome, thank you, thank you,thank you Appreciate it.
So you know, let's dive inBefore we get started into.
You know the whole app andcoding and all that kind of
stuff I always like to startwith.
You know your background.
Your bring up your childhood.
You know what was that like.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
Yeah, so, uh, I grew up in a little town in
Pennsylvania here called Erie,pennsylvania, if anyone's ever
heard of that little town Southof there.
So I grew up at like on a farmman, like it was.
Uh, I've I've always been likein the woods, you know, doing
hay, riding tractors, like that.
That's how I grew up up.
Like, doing stuff like that, um, played sports, played football
(01:46):
.
I.
It's so funny because I alwaysremember saying people like what
are you gonna do with your life?
And I was like, well, I don'tknow, but I'm not gonna work in
front of a computer.
That's like, well, a little didI know, you know, that was like
that's pretty much what 99 ofpeople do, I guess, um, or a big
chunk of people anyway.
So, uh, yeah, it's kind offunny.
But, um, yeah, that was likethat's pretty much what 99% of
people do, I guess, or a bigchunk of people anyway.
So, yeah, it's kind of funny.
(02:08):
But yeah, that was kind of myupbringing man.
Like I, just, you know, I grewup like just kind of I never
really with an entrepreneurialmindset, just kind of like go
hard, go, you know, go to work,you know, do sports, push
yourself like, learn, do thosekind of things.
And I think it all translated inthe.
You know, in the end, when Igrew up and you know, got into
(02:30):
my own career and stuff, but Inever, never thought I'd go down
this path at all.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
No, I mean that's.
It's interesting because you'refrom what it sounds like.
Your childhood wasn't inanywhere really surrounding,
somewhere that would be supertech driven, no, and so what did
your parents do for work?
Speaker 2 (02:50):
My mom was an accountant for a long time for a
big company in Erie and then mydad was.
He had one job his whole life.
He worked at the same place forover 40 years.
He was a maintenance supervisor.
He just did like a bunch.
He worked with his hands, youknow, walked 10 miles a day,
(03:11):
worked for a phone it's called.
It's not even in Erie anymore.
It was a foam manufacturing andproduction company.
So he would like change moldsand you know just kind of he was
a.
He had a dirty job, you know,for 40 some years.
So, um, yeah, it was the firstone in in my immediate family to
even go to college.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
Oh, wow, I mean you're at least, I mean not
having an entrepreneurialbackground in terms of like your
parents.
I mean, neither did I, butsomething I could.
I could say you probably gottheir work ethic, because I can
attribute my work ethic to mydad, to my mom, right.
Like, being an accountant isnot a, you know, light job.
You know, and working for thesame job for 40 years shows you
(03:53):
the dedication and, you know,commitment that he had to that,
because you know that's anachievement in itself, right?
So where did the codingexperience for you come in then?
Speaker 2 (04:05):
Well, it's funny I don't even have coding
experience that's kind of thewhole thing with no code, so
it's kind of funny to hearpeople say that.
But no, I I got a job out ofcollege.
I was a background investigatorof all things.
I was down in DC.
It was actually throughfootball that I got connected
with the network of people thatwere like, hey, we have, we need
(04:25):
opening, we have openings downhere.
Um, so I was.
That was a pretty cool job,honestly.
I got to go to, like, thepentagon.
I got to go to the statedepartment, got to go to a lot
of cool buildings in DC as likea 22 year old kid.
That was pretty neat.
Um, but then I was dating mynow wife.
She went to the same college Iwent to and she was down in
medical school in Blacksburg,virginia, and I was in DC and
(04:49):
just wanted to move to be closeto her, start moving in, start
doing the engagement thing, allthat stuff.
And I was able to be connectedwith someone who just was in a,
in a.
This is a customer support job.
It was like, hey, you can comehere, you can work for what it
it was.
One of the big four firms wasdeloitte, so it was just
basically doing you knowanything tech related as far as,
(05:12):
like, customer service goes, um, I was almost fired from that
job to be on.
To be very honest, like I, itwas a few weeks in and I was
like not getting it.
I just couldn't, like peoplewould call in and and say like
hey, you know, I have this goingon with my computer and this
with my browser and I'd never,I'd never done anything like
this stuff, you know.
But I buckled down and Ifigured it out and I wasn't
(05:35):
fired and I ended up being verygood at it and then got promoted
and that's how I got into, likeI promoted into a quality
assurance job where we actuallytested and built web
applications.
So there was actually like thecoders, the developers building
the web apps and then I wastesting them and that was my
first exposure into the world ofsoftware and web applications
and it was really cool.
(05:56):
And then that's kind of where mybackground came from and I
actually I kind of had like anoffshoot from there.
I went into sales a little bit.
I went into I did like alogistics, cold calling job.
I worked for a big logisticscompany, I worked for an
advertising company.
So I like I got.
I kind of went down that pathand then I realized like I had
this tech background, I had alittle bit of sales background,
(06:16):
and then that's where I kind ofhad this idea of like I heard
about apps, I heard aboutsoftware.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
No code was very intriguing to me, and that's
kind of how I got into justcombining all my background
experiences into doing this sosomething that's interesting
with your background, too is itsounded like you were
open-minded to try justdifferent things, right from,
you know, being a backgroundinvestigator, diving into, you
know, the, the tech world, andthen going into sales, and it's
(06:46):
like what was your mindset withthese different pivots or
transitions?
Right, because working inlogistics compared to sales,
compared to tech, right, they'reall completely different, it's
you know.
And so what was your mindset atthe time when you did
transition and beinguncomfortable, stepping outside
of something that you maybe know.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
Yeah, well, I'll say part of it had to do with not
having a choice sometimes,because so, with my wife being
in the medical field, we had tomove every three years or so
because it was like medicalschool and then we moved
somewhere for her residency andthen we moved somewhere for her
fellowship, but now we've movedfor her job, so it's like it.
That's kind of what drove medown this path was I knew I
needed to kind of have my ownthing, um, but at the time I
(07:31):
remember gosh, I think I was in,I think it was in my back no,
it wasn't my backgroundinvestigator, it was, I think it
was.
I was at Deloitte.
At some point I had been, umexposed to Rich Dad.
Poor Dad, I think, is kind ofwhere everyone kind of gets
their start with this stuff.
That led me down the path of a.
I followed this guy who wasinto stock trading and real
(07:53):
estate and passive income and hementioned three books on this
Twitter post and he said here'sthe three books that I like, and
one of them was Dotcom Secretsand that kind of introduced me
to russell brunson, this wholeconcept of funnels and, you know
, making money online and doingthis stuff and and I've kind of,
you know, really never kind ofseen the world since the same,
(08:13):
the same way.
So I've I was, you know, it wasinteresting to think about.
Like I, I think when Itransitioned to sales, I was
very excited about theopportunity for additional
income, because every tech job Iwas ever in was like salary
(08:34):
here's what you make off you goWith sales it was exciting to be
like wow, I could go in thereand make five times what I could
do and it's all based on my own.
I control that effort.
Like that's pretty amazing andI think that was that was also a
part of it.
But then I also knew that thatwas also an experienced builder
(08:54):
for me, because I did have thelongterm, you know, kind of idea
in place.
I've always, and I think thefurther down the path I've gone,
the more I realized I don'tlike taking direction, like I
realized that about myself.
I was like I kind of need to bemy own thing because, you know,
just being called in formeetings or being told, you know
, performance reviews weren'tgood enough for like this and
(09:15):
that that would really piss meoff, like that would really like
irk me, you know, and I waslike all right, I need to, like
I don't like taking direction,like I'd rather not have to do
that.
And then I found out, you know,when you, when you run your own
business, you still have bosses.
They're called your clients, soyou don't really get rid of a
boss ever.
But that was kind of my mindsetaround it, you know cause,
(09:38):
again, part of it was just likewe.
I was forced to figure it outcause we were moving and I just
couldn't keep that job.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
And then you know, part of it was like I liked the
idea of having experience,building additional income,
building things, you know, formy background.
No, I mean that is superinteresting.
It's really cool to hear yousay you know you did these
things because you guys werefollowing your wife, right, and
that, being that adaptive, right, and being willing to put
everything that you know, let'ssay you're trying to figure
something out and it's startingto work, but you're like, look,
(10:18):
you know we're in this togetherwith you know, with your spouse.
It shows a lot because, as anentrepreneur, you already know
it's not easy to be married toan entrepreneur, right?
You know, from the late, latenights to, you know, long days
when, especially in that startupphase, and so you guys have
already set this likerelationship principle together
(10:39):
that you guys are in thistogether.
You know, and you guys adapt asyou come, which I think is a
huge thing, both in the medicalfield but also in the
entrepreneurial space, becauseit's a big entrepreneur and you
can correct me if I'm wrong, butit's all about adaptation.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
Yes, yes it is.
By the way, can you hear my dogbarking in the background?
Yeah, it's all good.
Okay, one second.
My wife's here, but she's notshutting up the dog.
So they're quiet all day andthen they bark on a podcast.
It's unbelievable.
Okay, yeah, it's been veryinteresting because, yeah, the
(11:19):
medical field is a tough placeto be into.
Like it's a yeah, it's, butit's been awesome that there's
been flexibility, Like now we goon trips or something and I can
work from wherever we go.
So that's been always reallycool.
(11:40):
Like now we go on trips orsomething and I can work from
where we go.
So that's been always reallycool.
And then you know, just, it's ayeah, I wouldn't.
If I could go back and changethings, I probably wouldn't do
it the same way, but it has, ithas worked out.
So you know we're, we'redefinitely blessed by that.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
So I mean, I feel like every life experience and
all the things you guys haveovercame has helped establish
the mindset and everything thatyou currently have, like going
back and doing it differently.
Who knows if you would havefaced more obstacles starting
earlier, or you know if evenstarting at all Right.
So I feel like you know, somepeople look back and they're
(12:17):
like, man, I wish I would havedone this and it's like, yeah,
but at the same time, maybe youwouldn't even seen this
experience then, right.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
Yeah, I think it's a, it's a figured out mentality.
It's kind of.
That's kind of one thing I'velearned, you know I think sports
taught me that too.
It's just, it's like figuredout, like it's nothing's ever
guaranteed, nothing's everperfect, ever Nothing's ever
perfect.
I think so many people justwait for.
Well, when these conditions aregoing to be this way, then I'll
(12:45):
go Like I just, I just I'm justwaiting, and uh, and one thing
I've learned is just you gottago, man, you gotta, you gotta
figure it out as you go.
There's no other way, or you'regoing to waste so much time.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
No, definitely, and figure it out as you go.
There's no other way or you'regonna waste so much time.
No, definitely.
And realizing that that's likethe biggest part, I think.
I mean, my main business is agym and we launched a franchise
of it, and when people talk toyou know me and masterminds and
everything, they're alwaysthinking about all these
what-ifs and it's like look, youcould write the perfect
business plan, right, what you,what you think is the perfect
business plan once you start.
It's like, look, you couldwrite the perfect business plan,
(13:18):
right, what you think is theperfect business plan Once you
start.
You figure it out as you go,right, all the plans and stuff
that's just theoretical andhopes and dreams.
But once you're in it, right,and even though you're in a
different space, it stillapplies Like you don't know what
you don't know, right.
(13:45):
And so with that, I want tokind of dive into your
experience in app developmentand everything, because I know,
with your zero coding and lowcode, you know app development
like what?
What was that first step foryou?
Or that mindset shift whereyou're like you know what I'm
going to get into this space,that I've had some, some
introduction to being on the thereview and testing side of it,
but I think I could do this.
Speaker 2 (14:08):
Yeah, it's funny you say you don't know what you
don't know, because I didn'tknow anything about this.
So I've, I've learned it likeas I've gone.
And so I was originally um, Ithink one of the when I was, I
took another call center job fora while in West Virginia and I
was, um, I kind of just had thisidea that I wanted to have this
app, and I was.
I was a run, I was a big runnerat the time not really anymore
(14:30):
but um, I had just had this ideaand I just wanted to build this
and I knew that this was a goodidea to build, and I didn't
know how to code, I didn't havea lot of money, you know.
So I would go out to agenciesor online and I would put in a
quote and I got people liketelling me it was going to be
100 grand, 250 grand, to likebuild this thing.
And I was like get out of here,what are you talking about?
Then I tried to learn to code,you know, and that took me about
(15:04):
two weeks to learn that thatwas not my cup of tea, that was
not something that I was like.
I was like, oh, more power toif you can do this, but, like I,
this is not my thing.
So you know, I eventually foundonline like, hey, no code tools,
build your app without coding,without a ton of money.
And I was like, oh well, thatsolves both my problems.
So that was interesting.
So so then I ended up, I justended up diving into it.
I just figured it out, didn'tknow what.
I didn't know I would go andtry to build this thing.
I would go to a differentplatform.
I probably built it in about 20different places before I found
(15:27):
one that was like oh, this isthe one that's going to launch.
I launched it, put it togetherand it ended up succeeding.
It was really awesome.
I've since retired it, but thatwas what I realized.
To answer your question.
I built.
That was what I realized, liketo answer your question.
Like I built that skill and Irealized I was like oh, maybe
the opportunity isn't for mejust in this one thing.
Maybe it's like making moneybuilding this for other people,
(15:49):
because at the time on mypodcast, a lot of people I would
share about what I was doing.
They'd be oh, that's curious,that's interesting, could you do
this for me?
Could you do that for me?
And I was like was doing they'dbe oh, that's curious, that's
interesting, could you do thisfor me, could you do that for me
?
And I was like there's a markethere, like like there's,
there's some money to be madehere, that's interesting.
Um, so that's what I did and Ijust had started, had people
messaging me, started, you know,sharing it online, and next
(16:11):
thing, you know, I have a coupleof clients and I'm like, okay,
well, I need an llc, I need,like I, I need a payment thing,
I need whatever.
Like, okay, cool, let's do this.
So that's what I ended up doingand it's been really, really
fun and challenging and awesomeand gut wrenching and all the
different adjectives along theway.
Speaker 1 (16:32):
No, definitely.
I mean, sometimes you just youkind of fall into opportunity as
long as you're in thatopportunistic mindset, like you
know, people are asking youbecause you, because you're
sharing, you know what your,your story or how things are
going for you, and sometimesopportunity just presents itself
and if you're not in the rightmindset you wouldn't acknowledge
that opportunity.
(16:52):
You'd be like, oh no, sorry,like I, you know, I just did
this for me, right.
And not realizing, hey, there,there is a market for this, like
there there's a need, right.
So that is so cool that you onehad that mindset of being open
to it and I think that's beenformed from your being adaptable
and moving around and all thatkind of stuff.
But for the non technicalentrepreneur, can you explain?
(17:14):
You know at a base level whatno coding or low coding you know
app development really is yeah.
So you know at a base levelwhat no coding or low coding you
know app development really isyeah.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
So you know one thing I see a lot with.
You know, solopreneurs or smallbusinesses is like you know,
and this is what I've realized.
You know, as you, as you'rebuilding a business, you start
to build what's what you calllike a tech stack.
Like, okay, we have our websiteover here and we have our
funnels over here and we haveour email over here and you
might do a text messaging thing.
(17:42):
You might have whatever.
That's what's called the textstack, right.
So a lot of times those can bevery good tools and very good
ways to just like hey, I need acalendar thing.
Okay, great, get Calendly, moveon with your life, right.
Sometimes there's things youstart to use them or you have an
interesting enough or adifferent enough business.
You're like there's not reallya tool out there that really
(18:04):
fits what I needed to do.
I want to customize Calendly, Iwant to customize MailChimp, I
want to do these differentthings the tool just doesn't
allow me to do because I'mpaying for it, it's their thing,
it's whatever.
So that was again, that's whatI did with the running thing
there.
So that's, that was againthat's what I did with the
running thing.
There was a lot of apps outthere that kind of did what.
I wanted to do, but not quiteRight.
So now the next piece becomeswell, OK, if I really need
(18:26):
something custom, what does thatinvolve?
It involves hiring a dev teamor learning to code it yourself,
right, and those can be veryexpensive options, both in time
and money, right, and you mightnot have time for that stuff.
So what I've started to realizeis like, what kind of business
outcome are you looking for?
(18:47):
What type of?
If you are looking for, like acustom software solution, no,
code is a very, very goodsolution to that problem that
you have, because you can do itcheaper, you can do it faster
and you can still make it customto what you need.
And that's amazing.
Like that's a that gives you somany options, so much
(19:08):
flexibility to do something.
That's like oh, wow, now weactually have something that's
custom and that works and thatis actually it didn't break our
bank, you know it's.
It's kind of incredible.
So so when we talk about likeno code or low code, there's
still.
There's still code underneath,right, like it's, it's always
going to be based on that, butwhat you're doing is you're
(19:30):
interfacing with it in ways thatyou're not having to code,
right.
Like a lot of people.
I always say like.
A lot of people have builttheir own website using like Wix
or WordPress or GoDaddy orsomething like that.
It's very similar.
It's a visual way of buildingand constructing things without
having to code.
So a lot of it's drag and drop,it's pre-built templates, it's
(19:50):
just customizing the colors andthe fonts and the layouts a
little bit like this and Likecause.
That saves so much time, somuch money and you still end up
with something custom.
So that's that's really how Ilike to explain that it's.
It's it's like Legos kind of.
It's like kind of stacking themon top of each other and
(20:11):
building it in a certain way.
Um, and I, I love Legos as akid, so I'm not surprised that I
still like them.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
No, I mean it does make so much sense.
I mean I've built websites onWix and on you know what's
called WordPress, everythinglike that, and there is
definitely still that code toget those drag and drops and
everything like that but itmakes it more user friendly.
So the non tech savvy personcould essentially do it right
(20:40):
and obviously if you have moreof a tech side or technology to
you, you can customize evenfurther than that right, 100%,
100%.
So you probably hear app ideasevery day.
Now how do you spot the onesthat have real potential versus
the ones that just probablyaren't going to succeed?
Oh, that's a good question.
Speaker 2 (20:59):
That is a good question.
You know, I think it's prettyeasy for me to tell when someone
comes to you with like a halfbaked idea of like oh, this,
this is, this is cool, and thenit's like all right.
Well, you know, maybe I don'tknow, but I think, um, I think
one of the one of theinteresting things that I've
(21:22):
like people talk about theirsuperpower a lot Like I see,
like one of the superpowers thatI think I've developed over
time.
I don't think I was born withit, but like I can look at
pretty much any, any process orany system or any Excel
spreadsheet that you might haveand be like okay, I know how
this can translate into softwarelike almost instantly.
(21:44):
Like that's just something.
I have thousands of reps ofdoing that.
So just because it all can bedoesn't mean that it's going to
be like the winner, right.
And you know, when you talkabout that, like there's
different types of things.
Maybe you're, maybe you aretrying to build the next go
viral TikTok-esque type ofsocial media thing, right?
(22:04):
Or maybe you're just trying tobuild an internal tool for just
you, or just you and yourassistant, to use and make your
life a little easier.
That's not really going to bethe next big success story of
the world, of the tech world,but it still solves a problem
for you.
So there's like differentthings, right?
So in terms of the latter, likean internal tool or a small
(22:24):
SaaS product that you're justtrying to build, I can pretty
much build that out of anythingLike those are really things.
If you describe requirements,we can kind of figure that out
together.
Now, the other ones that you'retalking about like going viral,
you know, getting usersbuilding a business around you
got to think like, is there areal need for this in the market
right now?
(22:45):
Like, is there, is this a?
Is this a relevant thing?
Is this going to just besomething that's maybe like is
it maybe stale?
Is it outdated, is it?
But at the same time, is it toofar thinking?
Is it too future paced?
Because you know, if you lookinto a market like, a lot of
people will say, well, whatother tools are there like this
out there?
And it's like, well, if thereare some, you know you say like,
(23:08):
hey, I want to build this coolgym tool for my franchise or
whatever.
And then you say, well, whatother tools are out there?
And you find like 20 othertools.
That can be very discouragingbecause you're like oh, I
thought this was a good idea,but there's clearly other people
doing it.
But that's also a good thingbecause it proves that there's a
market and it proves thatthere's traction and people
(23:28):
actually buy this thing and payyou money.
That's an actual good sign.
And the other thing is okay.
Now you go and say, hey, isthere any tools out there for
this?
And there's like zero.
Other thing is okay.
Now you go and say, hey, isthere any tools out there for
this?
And there's like zero.
Okay, there is probably areason for that because there's
probably not a market's too blueof an ocean to go back to
Russell Brunson speak, but itcan also be a very, very good
(23:52):
opportunity at the same time.
So there's a balance.
There's a balance you kind ofhave to figure out there, but
there's nothing that beats justreal validation.
Real people like asking realpeople putting a website out
there, getting opt-ins, whateverof like hey, here's this cool
idea we have.
Would you potentially want this?
And seeing what actual peoplesay, you'd be surprised how many
(24:13):
people are scared to do that.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
No, I mean.
So then, what would be like thefirst first thing someone
should consider, like you know,with, before investing the time
and for investing, you knowmoney into building an app,
right, what would be some thingsto consider when they're doing
that research or doing thatthought process?
Speaker 2 (24:36):
Yeah, Do I have the time to figure this out?
If I mean, this is a very goodlike flow chart you could build,
like, do I have the time, yesor no, or whatever you know.
So I think, do you have thetime?
Do you?
Do you have the real need forit?
Or does someone else have thereal need for it?
And then you know how, howcomplex am I willing to go with
(25:00):
this thing?
You know, because that'sanother big trap that people
fall into in the software world.
Something I didn't know, that Ididn't know is you can, you
could spend years buildingsomething and spend $250,000, a
million dollars buildingsomething and still end up with
something that's not usable oror even validated, and then you
wasted a ton of money, right?
(25:21):
So you know, is there a realmarket need?
Do you have the time to putinto something like this?
And then is there, you know, arelative path to a clear outcome
and a clear win with whateveryou're trying to do, whether
it's internal, external, saasproduct, whatever.
(25:45):
I would say.
Those are probably just thevery, very 50,000 foot view
questions to start asking.
Speaker 1 (25:49):
So with that I mean now you ask the questions, you
found something and you're likeyou know what.
I think this could be it.
What are some red flags thatmight indicate an app might not
be worth pursuing?
Speaker 2 (26:05):
Interesting.
I think some red flags would beagain, like I mentioned before,
if there's nothing else outthere on the market that's even
remotely close to what you'retalking about or thinking about,
um, I'd say that's, more oftenthan not, a red flag.
You know, like I think therewas nothing like chachapiti out
(26:28):
there, for example.
You know so.
That's a case study ofsomething that would be okay.
This is a completely new thing,um, but it's overcome with the
power of how awesome it actuallywas.
You know so, but more oftenthan not, like I mean, a lot of
people don't have the backing of, you know, $10 billion from
(26:50):
Microsoft and like all kinds ofother things to go on, so you
can do a lot with that kind ofstuff too.
Know, I think another, anotherred flag as well is being stuck
in your mind of I am in lovewith this idea.
I think that this is thegreatest idea and it's it just
(27:11):
makes total sense that everyonein the world would want to use
this.
Like it's just, it's justperfect.
There's nothing wrong with it.
That's a huge red flag.
Speaker 1 (27:21):
I've done that.
Yeah, it makes sense.
Speaker 2 (27:24):
Because you can think it's the greatest thing since
sliced bread.
But if no one else does, itdoesn't matter.
Like it doesn't, you're notgoing to be.
The whole idea in terms ofputting an app out into the
market is what I'm saying.
Like it doesn't matter.
If you think it's a great idea,it's.
Does the market validate it?
(27:45):
Does the market need somethinglike this and want to do
something like this?
Because people fall in lovewith their ideas very, very
quickly.
Speaker 1 (27:55):
No, definitely, and so I mean it is, it is so.
It is so interesting because,like this whole mindset of of
having an app and you knowalmost for a company as well,
like of having an app and youknow almost for a company as
well, like it, it almost givesyou a little bit of this weird
authority to say you have an appright, um, and I know because
(28:16):
we have, like, we have a mealplan app right and it was, uh,
it's a, a white labeled app.
But like, people find out wehave an app and they're like, oh
, my goodness, like all of asudden they put you on this
pedestal in terms of brandingcompared to a competitor that
doesn't have an app.
So I would say, what kind ofbusinesses would benefit most,
(28:37):
in your opinion, from having anapp, versus, maybe, ones that
maybe don't need one necessarily?
Does that make sense?
Speaker 2 (28:48):
Yeah, and it's a very broad thing.
But if you are, I mean, when Ifirst started out, we worked
exclusively with coaches andcontent creators.
It was people who had just allkinds of memberships and
communities.
It was kind of the precursor toschool, you know, of like hey,
(29:08):
put all your content and yourstuff in one place.
That's a great use case for it.
That's just one thing you know.
And then, in terms of appsspecifically, yeah, like
restaurants, you know, like yousaid, gyms, a lot of like local
(29:29):
types of businesses can reallybenefit from it, and we actually
just got done launching one foran ice cream shop.
So we're starting to kind ofroll out this new offer for ice
cream shops.
I mean, even think about likefinancial advisors, you know,
you know people like that thatjust work individually with
(29:50):
people for maybe a high ticketprice but also can make
commission on things.
I mean, think about how howmuch differentiation you have as
someone who's like hey, we havethis, we're going to onboard
you.
You download our app.
It has everything in there foryou.
It's like, it's like a whiteglove service, you know.
(30:10):
It's like it was.
It's different than just saying, hey, go on our website and
fill out this jot form that doesthis and does that and whatever
like that, that can be cool.
But you know what, if there wassomething that was just like
completely handled everythingand like all of your stuff is
right there, like that's such adifferentiator, right?
So, um, I say any businessusually, but obviously there's.
(30:32):
You know, that's a very, verybroad answer to a broad question
.
But you know, if you're lookingto streamline things, like one
thing we actually did, um, for aclient, uh, not long ago was
modernize something.
Right, like there was a she'san animal chiropractor who works
with vets and different clientsand they had this outdated
(30:53):
texting and even faxing processof trying to coordinate.
Like hey, am I allowed to dothis to this animal and do that
and get the vet's approval andall these other things.
And we built a streamlinedprocess inside of one app.
So there's a her view, there'sa client view, there's a vet
view, that everyone's on thesame page all the time.
So even some it's like it'sthinking outside the box.
(31:15):
I talked about this on one ofmy recent podcast episodes of
just thinking outside of the box, of oh, I need, I need an app
for this or I need a softwarefor this or like this could be a
digitized process.
You know, and there's so many,so many things.
We could be here all daytalking about all of them, you
know.
Speaker 1 (31:36):
No, honestly, that's the interesting part about it.
It's like if you open up yourmind to the potential or
possibilities that you could do,right, because I mean, some of
the things that you'veemphasized, I mean, in previous
stuff is you can use it formarketing, you could use it for
lead generation, you could useit for increasing customer
retention and engagement, right.
So it really comes down to youknow what you're looking for,
(31:57):
and even for us as a gym, like alot of our things are to try to
increase engagement andretention, but at the end of the
day, it does act as a marketingtool or a lead generation tool
to try to move something downthe pipeline you know of, you
know kind of going back toRussell Brunson's, you know
staircase and you know theoryand kind of funnels and stuff
(32:19):
like that, right?
So what, what would you say towhat kind of app or or app
engagement really increasesretention?
Speaker 2 (32:31):
Um, well, you know, there there's a old stat.
I'd have to look up what thenewest numbers are.
But you know they say, uh, liketext messaging and emails, like
what, what are the open rates?
What are the click throughrates, right?
Um, there was a stat I, I Idon't have the latest numbers
that I should.
I apologize, I'm making myselflook bad here, but push
notifications right.
(32:51):
When you get those pushnotifications on your phone,
there was I think there was likean 85 or 90% open rate, even
like a couple of years ago,especially from something that
is like we just joined a groupthrough our church, right, and
they communicate through signalis the app that they use.
When I see that the only groupI have on there, and when I see
(33:15):
a notification that somebodymessaged that, or like whatsapp
or whatever, I click on that,like I'm going to open that,
like I'm interested, like what'swhat's going on, right.
So it's different when you havelike facebook, instagram, like
when you get tons ofnotifications through things or
whatever.
But those are really reallycool ways, right.
And then that comes back to themarketing hook story offer of
(33:39):
how are we, what are we doing tohook?
What's the story we're telling.
Is it new content?
We're putting out a new offer,we're putting out a limited time
thing again, creativity, butthen driving people to sign a
page, a free trial page, aspecial offer page, a yoga class
sign up, whatever the casemight be those are really,
(33:59):
really cool ways to do that.
I mean even think I love to usethe McDonald's app as an example
.
I mean even think I love to, Ilove to use the McDonald's app
as an example.
Right, you hear commercials allthe time of hey, you know,
download our app and get a freefry or get a, get a 50% discount
on whatever.
Like that's something thatpeople can use to drive.
(34:21):
Again, retention, additionalsales, things like that
Exclusive only content,exclusive only deals inside of
this members area, this app,this whatever.
So, use your imagination forhow you could implement
something like that.
That's a very, very awesomething.
When I hear all thosecommercials, I'm like, oh,
(34:41):
that's genius that's so genius.
Speaker 1 (34:43):
No, it is.
That is so genius.
I mean, I used Chipotle as thereference of why we have a
rewards, uh, software andeverything like that, because I
go to chipotle and every timeyou the app push notification
you write does show up and I'mlike, oh yeah, I have points,
you know, and so we have that atthe gym as well, because I was
like you know, it works atchipotle, it works at starbucks,
it works at, you know, like yousaid, mcdonald's.
Obviously there's a reason whyall these big companies are
(35:06):
doing it.
You know it'll work for the gymand, honestly, it has helped a
lot, right?
So that engagement and thatretention it does really come
from, you know, innovation,essentially, and being open to
that innovation.
So before we wrap up, I like toask one question, right, and
this question is a legacy wallquestion, right, right?
(35:27):
So on Dan's legacy wall, it'sand again, it's not a tombstone
I have to say that because somepeople give me tombstone answers
on this legacy wall, what isthe one piece of advice that you
would leave for the up andcoming generations that you've
learned along your life'sjourney?
That is a good one.
Speaker 2 (35:51):
You know I could probably say a lot of things.
Can I give you a couple?
Yeah, okay, I think one thingI've learned inside of being
what I do and inside of no codeand just being in business in
general um, done is better thanperfect.
I think.
I think that's worth that.
(36:12):
Like that's the first thingthat came to my mind that popped
into my head when you said that.
So I think that that's.
That says something about that.
But you know, done is betterthan perfect.
Um, because the world is movingso fast anymore, because the
world is moving so fast anymore,you have to move fast, you have
(36:32):
to execute.
There's no such thing as amillion-dollar idea, there's
only million-dollar execution.
I think Billie Jean said that.
I love that quote Done isbetter than perfect.
But I will add another thing,which I actually have a quote up
here on my wall.
I guess you could call it myactual legacy wall, I call it my
(36:53):
motivation wall.
But I love the speech from AnyGiven Sunday Game of Inches.
Life is a game of inches.
I've watched that speech Idon't know probably once a week.
I freaking love it.
I cannot get enough of it.
You know, in life and footballit's a game of inches and I
(37:15):
think business can be a game ofinches too Like there can be.
There can be opportunitieseverywhere.
The inches you need areeverywhere around you.
You know the opportunities thatyou need, the customers that
you need, the, the, the successthat you're looking for is
everywhere around you.
It's just are you going to bewilling to crawl inch by inch to
(37:37):
to, to find it, to get it?
You know, um, I, I love, I lovethat quote.
I just had to throw that extraone in there for you.
I hope, hope you appreciated it.
Speaker 1 (37:47):
But yeah, those would be my two it doesn't matter if
it stays in your head.
The only thing that matters isthe actions that you take or the
(38:08):
inactions that you don't take,right, so I love that.
And then it is true, it isabout inches.
It's not about these huge leaps, right, it's, sometimes it's
small increments, so I love bothof those.
Where can people connect withyou at?
Speaker 2 (38:21):
Yeah, so I love to have people come and listen to
my podcast as well.
It's called Tech BytesB-Y-T-E-S.
I'm actually going through aseries called the no Code
Advantage right now which Ithink people, if you appreciated
this episode, you'll get a lotout of those.
It's like a 10-episode seriesI'm putting through.
(38:43):
I'm about halfway through itright now, so you can definitely
check that out anywhere you getyour podcasts.
And then I'm also, you know,DapperNoCodecom is our site
where we have all our differentportfolios and services and
calculators and all kinds ofcool stuff over there.
Speaker 1 (39:00):
So.
So, guys, that all that will bein the show notes.
If you watch it on YouTube,it'll be in the video
description.
Make sure you guys share thisepisode with a friend you never
know who.
What friend has a cool you knowapp idea in their head and they
might bring you along becauseyou showed them this episode.
So, you know, here's your,here's your one inch that might,
uh might, help progress you.
(39:21):
So, dan, I want to say you know, thank you so much again for
taking the time out of your day.
You know it was awesome.
I learned a lot as well, anddefinitely going to be checking
out the website and everythingand see how we can integrate our
stuff a little bit better andmaybe even just make a singular
app to kind of consolidateeverything.
So, again, thank you so muchfor taking the time out of your
day.
Thank you, I appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (39:42):
No negative vibes, only positive thoughts.
Fist in the game.
Life mindset causes shites.
Got my mind on the prize.
I can't be distracted.
I stay on my grind.
No time to be slackin'.
I hustle harder.
I go against the current Cause.
I know my mind is rich to becollected.
Yeah, it's Mindset Cafe.
We all about that mindset.
Gotta stay focused.
Now go settle for the last.
It's all in your head how youthink you manifest.
So get ready to rise, cause weabout to be the best.
Gotta switch it up.
Gotta break the old habits.
Get your mind right.
Turn your dreams into habits.
No negative vibes, onlypositive thoughts.
What is up, guys?
(00:21):
Welcome to another episode ofthe Mindset Cafe podcast.
It's your boy, devin, and todaywe are going to be diving into
the world of app development themindset of you know why
business owners want to createapps and why we should be
creating apps but also intobusiness growth and digital
innovation.
(00:41):
This guest is a leader in theapp development space.
He's built apps and really he'san expert at building apps with
no code.
Essentially, he is the founderof Dapper no Code, where he
helps entrepreneurs and smallteams really transform their
concepts into sleek, scalableapps.
So, without further ado, I wantto welcome Dan Hapner onto the
show.
Thank you so much for takingthe time out of your day to hop
(01:03):
on the Mindset Cafe.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Yeah, thanks for having me Dan Appreciate it.
Man, you got a sick beat for anintro.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
I love it, by the way .
Awesome, thank you, thank you,thank you Appreciate it.
So you know, let's dive inBefore we get started into.
You know the whole app andcoding and all that kind of
stuff I always like to startwith.
You know your background.
Your bring up your childhood.
You know what was that like.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
Yeah, so, uh, I grew up in a little town in
Pennsylvania here called Erie,pennsylvania, if anyone's ever
heard of that little town Southof there.
So I grew up at like on a farmman, like it was.
Uh, I've I've always been likein the woods, you know, doing
hay, riding tractors, like that.
That's how I grew up up.
Like, doing stuff like that, um, played sports, played football
(01:46):
.
I.
It's so funny because I alwaysremember saying people like what
are you gonna do with your life?
And I was like, well, I don'tknow, but I'm not gonna work in
front of a computer.
That's like, well, a little didI know, you know, that was like
that's pretty much what 99 ofpeople do, I guess, um, or a big
chunk of people anyway.
So, uh, yeah, it's kind offunny.
But, um, yeah, that was likethat's pretty much what 99% of
people do, I guess, or a bigchunk of people anyway.
So, yeah, it's kind of funny.
(02:08):
But yeah, that was kind of myupbringing man.
Like I, just, you know, I grewup like just kind of I never
really with an entrepreneurialmindset, just kind of like go
hard, go, you know, go to work,you know, do sports, push
yourself like, learn, do thosekind of things.
And I think it all translated inthe.
You know, in the end, when Igrew up and you know, got into
(02:30):
my own career and stuff, but Inever, never thought I'd go down
this path at all.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
No, I mean that's.
It's interesting because you'refrom what it sounds like.
Your childhood wasn't inanywhere really surrounding,
somewhere that would be supertech driven, no, and so what did
your parents do for work?
Speaker 2 (02:50):
My mom was an accountant for a long time for a
big company in Erie and then mydad was.
He had one job his whole life.
He worked at the same place forover 40 years.
He was a maintenance supervisor.
He just did like a bunch.
He worked with his hands, youknow, walked 10 miles a day,
(03:11):
worked for a phone it's called.
It's not even in Erie anymore.
It was a foam manufacturing andproduction company.
So he would like change moldsand you know just kind of he was
a.
He had a dirty job, you know,for 40 some years.
So, um, yeah, it was the firstone in in my immediate family to
even go to college.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
Oh, wow, I mean you're at least, I mean not
having an entrepreneurialbackground in terms of like your
parents.
I mean, neither did I, butsomething I could.
I could say you probably gottheir work ethic, because I can
attribute my work ethic to mydad, to my mom, right.
Like, being an accountant isnot a, you know, light job.
You know, and working for thesame job for 40 years shows you
(03:53):
the dedication and, you know,commitment that he had to that,
because you know that's anachievement in itself, right?
So where did the codingexperience for you come in then?
Speaker 2 (04:05):
Well, it's funny I don't even have coding
experience that's kind of thewhole thing with no code, so
it's kind of funny to hearpeople say that.
But no, I I got a job out ofcollege.
I was a background investigatorof all things.
I was down in DC.
It was actually throughfootball that I got connected
with the network of people thatwere like, hey, we have, we need
(04:25):
opening, we have openings downhere.
Um, so I was.
That was a pretty cool job,honestly.
I got to go to, like, thepentagon.
I got to go to the statedepartment, got to go to a lot
of cool buildings in DC as likea 22 year old kid.
That was pretty neat.
Um, but then I was dating mynow wife.
She went to the same college Iwent to and she was down in
medical school in Blacksburg,virginia, and I was in DC and
(04:49):
just wanted to move to be closeto her, start moving in, start
doing the engagement thing, allthat stuff.
And I was able to be connectedwith someone who just was in a,
in a.
This is a customer support job.
It was like, hey, you can comehere, you can work for what it
it was.
One of the big four firms wasdeloitte, so it was just
basically doing you knowanything tech related as far as,
(05:12):
like, customer service goes, um, I was almost fired from that
job to be on.
To be very honest, like I, itwas a few weeks in and I was
like not getting it.
I just couldn't, like peoplewould call in and and say like
hey, you know, I have this goingon with my computer and this
with my browser and I'd never,I'd never done anything like
this stuff, you know.
But I buckled down and Ifigured it out and I wasn't
(05:35):
fired and I ended up being verygood at it and then got promoted
and that's how I got into, likeI promoted into a quality
assurance job where we actuallytested and built web
applications.
So there was actually like thecoders, the developers building
the web apps and then I wastesting them and that was my
first exposure into the world ofsoftware and web applications
and it was really cool.
(05:56):
And then that's kind of where mybackground came from and I
actually I kind of had like anoffshoot from there.
I went into sales a little bit.
I went into I did like alogistics, cold calling job.
I worked for a big logisticscompany, I worked for an
advertising company.
So I like I got.
I kind of went down that pathand then I realized like I had
this tech background, I had alittle bit of sales background,
(06:16):
and then that's where I kind ofhad this idea of like I heard
about apps, I heard aboutsoftware.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
No code was very intriguing to me, and that's
kind of how I got into justcombining all my background
experiences into doing this sosomething that's interesting
with your background, too is itsounded like you were
open-minded to try justdifferent things, right from,
you know, being a backgroundinvestigator, diving into, you
know, the, the tech world, andthen going into sales, and it's
(06:46):
like what was your mindset withthese different pivots or
transitions?
Right, because working inlogistics compared to sales,
compared to tech, right, they'reall completely different, it's
you know.
And so what was your mindset atthe time when you did
transition and beinguncomfortable, stepping outside
of something that you maybe know.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
Yeah, well, I'll say part of it had to do with not
having a choice sometimes,because so, with my wife being
in the medical field, we had tomove every three years or so
because it was like medicalschool and then we moved
somewhere for her residency andthen we moved somewhere for her
fellowship, but now we've movedfor her job, so it's like it.
That's kind of what drove medown this path was I knew I
needed to kind of have my ownthing, um, but at the time I
(07:31):
remember gosh, I think I was in,I think it was in my back no,
it wasn't my backgroundinvestigator, it was, I think it
was.
I was at Deloitte.
At some point I had been, umexposed to Rich Dad.
Poor Dad, I think, is kind ofwhere everyone kind of gets
their start with this stuff.
That led me down the path of a.
I followed this guy who wasinto stock trading and real
(07:53):
estate and passive income and hementioned three books on this
Twitter post and he said here'sthe three books that I like, and
one of them was Dotcom Secretsand that kind of introduced me
to russell brunson, this wholeconcept of funnels and, you know
, making money online and doingthis stuff and and I've kind of,
you know, really never kind ofseen the world since the same,
(08:13):
the same way.
So I've I was, you know, it wasinteresting to think about.
Like I, I think when Itransitioned to sales, I was
very excited about theopportunity for additional
income, because every tech job Iwas ever in was like salary
(08:34):
here's what you make off you goWith sales it was exciting to be
like wow, I could go in thereand make five times what I could
do and it's all based on my own.
I control that effort.
Like that's pretty amazing andI think that was that was also a
part of it.
But then I also knew that thatwas also an experienced builder
(08:54):
for me, because I did have thelongterm, you know, kind of idea
in place.
I've always, and I think thefurther down the path I've gone,
the more I realized I don'tlike taking direction, like I
realized that about myself.
I was like I kind of need to bemy own thing because, you know,
just being called in formeetings or being told, you know
, performance reviews weren'tgood enough for like this and
(09:15):
that that would really piss meoff, like that would really like
irk me, you know, and I waslike all right, I need to, like
I don't like taking direction,like I'd rather not have to do
that.
And then I found out, you know,when you, when you run your own
business, you still have bosses.
They're called your clients, soyou don't really get rid of a
boss ever.
But that was kind of my mindsetaround it, you know cause,
(09:38):
again, part of it was just likewe.
I was forced to figure it outcause we were moving and I just
couldn't keep that job.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
And then you know, part of it was like I liked the
idea of having experience,building additional income,
building things, you know, formy background.
No, I mean that is superinteresting.
It's really cool to hear yousay you know you did these
things because you guys werefollowing your wife, right, and
that, being that adaptive, right, and being willing to put
everything that you know, let'ssay you're trying to figure
something out and it's startingto work, but you're like, look,
(10:18):
you know we're in this togetherwith you know, with your spouse.
It shows a lot because, as anentrepreneur, you already know
it's not easy to be married toan entrepreneur, right?
You know, from the late, latenights to, you know, long days
when, especially in that startupphase, and so you guys have
already set this likerelationship principle together
(10:39):
that you guys are in thistogether.
You know, and you guys adapt asyou come, which I think is a
huge thing, both in the medicalfield but also in the
entrepreneurial space, becauseit's a big entrepreneur and you
can correct me if I'm wrong, butit's all about adaptation.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
Yes, yes it is.
By the way, can you hear my dogbarking in the background?
Yeah, it's all good.
Okay, one second.
My wife's here, but she's notshutting up the dog.
So they're quiet all day andthen they bark on a podcast.
It's unbelievable.
Okay, yeah, it's been veryinteresting because, yeah, the
(11:19):
medical field is a tough placeto be into.
Like it's a yeah, it's, butit's been awesome that there's
been flexibility, Like now we goon trips or something and I can
work from wherever we go.
So that's been always reallycool.
(11:40):
Like now we go on trips orsomething and I can work from
where we go.
So that's been always reallycool.
And then you know, just, it's ayeah, I wouldn't.
If I could go back and changethings, I probably wouldn't do
it the same way, but it has, ithas worked out.
So you know we're, we'redefinitely blessed by that.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
So I mean, I feel like every life experience and
all the things you guys haveovercame has helped establish
the mindset and everything thatyou currently have, like going
back and doing it differently.
Who knows if you would havefaced more obstacles starting
earlier, or you know if evenstarting at all Right.
So I feel like you know, somepeople look back and they're
(12:17):
like, man, I wish I would havedone this and it's like, yeah,
but at the same time, maybe youwouldn't even seen this
experience then, right.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
Yeah, I think it's a, it's a figured out mentality.
It's kind of.
That's kind of one thing I'velearned, you know I think sports
taught me that too.
It's just, it's like figuredout, like it's nothing's ever
guaranteed, nothing's everperfect, ever Nothing's ever
perfect.
I think so many people justwait for.
Well, when these conditions aregoing to be this way, then I'll
(12:45):
go Like I just, I just I'm justwaiting, and uh, and one thing
I've learned is just you gottago, man, you gotta, you gotta
figure it out as you go.
There's no other way, or you'regoing to waste so much time.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
No, definitely, and figure it out as you go.
There's no other way or you'regonna waste so much time.
No, definitely.
And realizing that that's likethe biggest part, I think.
I mean, my main business is agym and we launched a franchise
of it, and when people talk toyou know me and masterminds and
everything, they're alwaysthinking about all these
what-ifs and it's like look, youcould write the perfect
business plan, right, what you,what you think is the perfect
business plan once you start.
It's like, look, you couldwrite the perfect business plan,
(13:18):
right, what you think is theperfect business plan Once you
start.
You figure it out as you go,right, all the plans and stuff
that's just theoretical andhopes and dreams.
But once you're in it, right,and even though you're in a
different space, it stillapplies Like you don't know what
you don't know, right.
(13:45):
And so with that, I want tokind of dive into your
experience in app developmentand everything, because I know,
with your zero coding and lowcode, you know app development
like what?
What was that first step foryou?
Or that mindset shift whereyou're like you know what I'm
going to get into this space,that I've had some, some
introduction to being on the thereview and testing side of it,
but I think I could do this.
Speaker 2 (14:08):
Yeah, it's funny you say you don't know what you
don't know, because I didn'tknow anything about this.
So I've, I've learned it likeas I've gone.
And so I was originally um, Ithink one of the when I was, I
took another call center job fora while in West Virginia and I
was, um, I kind of just had thisidea that I wanted to have this
app, and I was.
I was a run, I was a big runnerat the time not really anymore
(14:30):
but um, I had just had this ideaand I just wanted to build this
and I knew that this was a goodidea to build, and I didn't
know how to code, I didn't havea lot of money, you know.
So I would go out to agenciesor online and I would put in a
quote and I got people liketelling me it was going to be
100 grand, 250 grand, to likebuild this thing.
And I was like get out of here,what are you talking about?
Then I tried to learn to code,you know, and that took me about
(15:04):
two weeks to learn that thatwas not my cup of tea, that was
not something that I was like.
I was like, oh, more power toif you can do this, but, like I,
this is not my thing.
So you know, I eventually foundonline like, hey, no code tools,
build your app without coding,without a ton of money.
And I was like, oh well, thatsolves both my problems.
So that was interesting.
So so then I ended up, I justended up diving into it.
I just figured it out, didn'tknow what.
I didn't know I would go andtry to build this thing.
I would go to a differentplatform.
I probably built it in about 20different places before I found
(15:27):
one that was like oh, this isthe one that's going to launch.
I launched it, put it togetherand it ended up succeeding.
It was really awesome.
I've since retired it, but thatwas what I realized.
To answer your question.
I built.
That was what I realized, liketo answer your question.
Like I built that skill and Irealized I was like oh, maybe
the opportunity isn't for mejust in this one thing.
Maybe it's like making moneybuilding this for other people,
(15:49):
because at the time on mypodcast, a lot of people I would
share about what I was doing.
They'd be oh, that's curious,that's interesting, could you do
this for me?
Could you do that for me?
And I was like was doing they'dbe oh, that's curious, that's
interesting, could you do thisfor me, could you do that for me
?
And I was like there's a markethere, like like there's,
there's some money to be madehere, that's interesting.
Um, so that's what I did and Ijust had started, had people
messaging me, started, you know,sharing it online, and next
(16:11):
thing, you know, I have a coupleof clients and I'm like, okay,
well, I need an llc, I need,like I, I need a payment thing,
I need whatever.
Like, okay, cool, let's do this.
So that's what I ended up doingand it's been really, really
fun and challenging and awesomeand gut wrenching and all the
different adjectives along theway.
Speaker 1 (16:32):
No, definitely.
I mean, sometimes you just youkind of fall into opportunity as
long as you're in thatopportunistic mindset, like you
know, people are asking youbecause you, because you're
sharing, you know what your,your story or how things are
going for you, and sometimesopportunity just presents itself
and if you're not in the rightmindset you wouldn't acknowledge
that opportunity.
(16:52):
You'd be like, oh no, sorry,like I, you know, I just did
this for me, right.
And not realizing, hey, there,there is a market for this, like
there there's a need, right.
So that is so cool that you onehad that mindset of being open
to it and I think that's beenformed from your being adaptable
and moving around and all thatkind of stuff.
But for the non technicalentrepreneur, can you explain?
(17:14):
You know at a base level whatno coding or low coding you know
app development really is yeah.
So you know at a base levelwhat no coding or low coding you
know app development really isyeah.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
So you know one thing I see a lot with.
You know, solopreneurs or smallbusinesses is like you know,
and this is what I've realized.
You know, as you, as you'rebuilding a business, you start
to build what's what you calllike a tech stack.
Like, okay, we have our websiteover here and we have our
funnels over here and we haveour email over here and you
might do a text messaging thing.
(17:42):
You might have whatever.
That's what's called the textstack, right.
So a lot of times those can bevery good tools and very good
ways to just like hey, I need acalendar thing.
Okay, great, get Calendly, moveon with your life, right.
Sometimes there's things youstart to use them or you have an
interesting enough or adifferent enough business.
You're like there's not reallya tool out there that really
(18:04):
fits what I needed to do.
I want to customize Calendly, Iwant to customize MailChimp, I
want to do these differentthings the tool just doesn't
allow me to do because I'mpaying for it, it's their thing,
it's whatever.
So that was again, that's whatI did with the running thing
there.
So that's, that was againthat's what I did with the
running thing.
There was a lot of apps outthere that kind of did what.
I wanted to do, but not quiteRight.
So now the next piece becomeswell, OK, if I really need
(18:26):
something custom, what does thatinvolve?
It involves hiring a dev teamor learning to code it yourself,
right, and those can be veryexpensive options, both in time
and money, right, and you mightnot have time for that stuff.
So what I've started to realizeis like, what kind of business
outcome are you looking for?
(18:47):
What type of?
If you are looking for, like acustom software solution, no,
code is a very, very goodsolution to that problem that
you have, because you can do itcheaper, you can do it faster
and you can still make it customto what you need.
And that's amazing.
Like that's a that gives you somany options, so much
(19:08):
flexibility to do something.
That's like oh, wow, now weactually have something that's
custom and that works and thatis actually it didn't break our
bank, you know it's.
It's kind of incredible.
So so when we talk about likeno code or low code, there's
still.
There's still code underneath,right, like it's, it's always
going to be based on that, butwhat you're doing is you're
(19:30):
interfacing with it in ways thatyou're not having to code,
right.
Like a lot of people.
I always say like.
A lot of people have builttheir own website using like Wix
or WordPress or GoDaddy orsomething like that.
It's very similar.
It's a visual way of buildingand constructing things without
having to code.
So a lot of it's drag and drop,it's pre-built templates, it's
(19:50):
just customizing the colors andthe fonts and the layouts a
little bit like this and Likecause.
That saves so much time, somuch money and you still end up
with something custom.
So that's that's really how Ilike to explain that it's.
It's it's like Legos kind of.
It's like kind of stacking themon top of each other and
(20:11):
building it in a certain way.
Um, and I, I love Legos as akid, so I'm not surprised that I
still like them.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
No, I mean it does make so much sense.
I mean I've built websites onWix and on you know what's
called WordPress, everythinglike that, and there is
definitely still that code toget those drag and drops and
everything like that but itmakes it more user friendly.
So the non tech savvy personcould essentially do it right
(20:40):
and obviously if you have moreof a tech side or technology to
you, you can customize evenfurther than that right, 100%,
100%.
So you probably hear app ideasevery day.
Now how do you spot the onesthat have real potential versus
the ones that just probablyaren't going to succeed?
Oh, that's a good question.
Speaker 2 (20:59):
That is a good question.
You know, I think it's prettyeasy for me to tell when someone
comes to you with like a halfbaked idea of like oh, this,
this is, this is cool, and thenit's like all right.
Well, you know, maybe I don'tknow, but I think, um, I think
one of the one of theinteresting things that I've
(21:22):
like people talk about theirsuperpower a lot Like I see,
like one of the superpowers thatI think I've developed over
time.
I don't think I was born withit, but like I can look at
pretty much any, any process orany system or any Excel
spreadsheet that you might haveand be like okay, I know how
this can translate into softwarelike almost instantly.
(21:44):
Like that's just something.
I have thousands of reps ofdoing that.
So just because it all can bedoesn't mean that it's going to
be like the winner, right.
And you know, when you talkabout that, like there's
different types of things.
Maybe you're, maybe you aretrying to build the next go
viral TikTok-esque type ofsocial media thing, right?
(22:04):
Or maybe you're just trying tobuild an internal tool for just
you, or just you and yourassistant, to use and make your
life a little easier.
That's not really going to bethe next big success story of
the world, of the tech world,but it still solves a problem
for you.
So there's like differentthings, right?
So in terms of the latter, likean internal tool or a small
(22:24):
SaaS product that you're justtrying to build, I can pretty
much build that out of anythingLike those are really things.
If you describe requirements,we can kind of figure that out
together.
Now, the other ones that you'retalking about like going viral,
you know, getting usersbuilding a business around you
got to think like, is there areal need for this in the market
right now?
(22:45):
Like, is there, is this a?
Is this a relevant thing?
Is this going to just besomething that's maybe like is
it maybe stale?
Is it outdated, is it?
But at the same time, is it toofar thinking?
Is it too future paced?
Because you know, if you lookinto a market like, a lot of
people will say, well, whatother tools are there like this
out there?
And it's like, well, if thereare some, you know you say like,
(23:08):
hey, I want to build this coolgym tool for my franchise or
whatever.
And then you say, well, whatother tools are out there?
And you find like 20 othertools.
That can be very discouragingbecause you're like oh, I
thought this was a good idea,but there's clearly other people
doing it.
But that's also a good thingbecause it proves that there's a
market and it proves thatthere's traction and people
(23:28):
actually buy this thing and payyou money.
That's an actual good sign.
And the other thing is okay.
Now you go and say, hey, isthere any tools out there for
this?
And there's like zero.
Other thing is okay.
Now you go and say, hey, isthere any tools out there for
this?
And there's like zero.
Okay, there is probably areason for that because there's
probably not a market's too blueof an ocean to go back to
Russell Brunson speak, but itcan also be a very, very good
(23:52):
opportunity at the same time.
So there's a balance.
There's a balance you kind ofhave to figure out there, but
there's nothing that beats justreal validation.
Real people like asking realpeople putting a website out
there, getting opt-ins, whateverof like hey, here's this cool
idea we have.
Would you potentially want this?
And seeing what actual peoplesay, you'd be surprised how many
(24:13):
people are scared to do that.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
No, I mean.
So then, what would be like thefirst first thing someone
should consider, like you know,with, before investing the time
and for investing, you knowmoney into building an app,
right, what would be some thingsto consider when they're doing
that research or doing thatthought process?
Speaker 2 (24:36):
Yeah, Do I have the time to figure this out?
If I mean, this is a very goodlike flow chart you could build,
like, do I have the time, yesor no, or whatever you know.
So I think, do you have thetime?
Do you?
Do you have the real need forit?
Or does someone else have thereal need for it?
And then you know how, howcomplex am I willing to go with
(25:00):
this thing?
You know, because that'sanother big trap that people
fall into in the software world.
Something I didn't know, that Ididn't know is you can, you
could spend years buildingsomething and spend $250,000, a
million dollars buildingsomething and still end up with
something that's not usable oror even validated, and then you
wasted a ton of money, right?
(25:21):
So you know, is there a realmarket need?
Do you have the time to putinto something like this?
And then is there, you know, arelative path to a clear outcome
and a clear win with whateveryou're trying to do, whether
it's internal, external, saasproduct, whatever.
(25:45):
I would say.
Those are probably just thevery, very 50,000 foot view
questions to start asking.
Speaker 1 (25:49):
So with that I mean now you ask the questions, you
found something and you're likeyou know what.
I think this could be it.
What are some red flags thatmight indicate an app might not
be worth pursuing?
Speaker 2 (26:05):
Interesting.
I think some red flags would beagain, like I mentioned before,
if there's nothing else outthere on the market that's even
remotely close to what you'retalking about or thinking about,
um, I'd say that's, more oftenthan not, a red flag.
You know, like I think therewas nothing like chachapiti out
(26:28):
there, for example.
You know so.
That's a case study ofsomething that would be okay.
This is a completely new thing,um, but it's overcome with the
power of how awesome it actuallywas.
You know so, but more oftenthan not, like I mean, a lot of
people don't have the backing of, you know, $10 billion from
(26:50):
Microsoft and like all kinds ofother things to go on, so you
can do a lot with that kind ofstuff too.
Know, I think another, anotherred flag as well is being stuck
in your mind of I am in lovewith this idea.
I think that this is thegreatest idea and it's it just
(27:11):
makes total sense that everyonein the world would want to use
this.
Like it's just, it's justperfect.
There's nothing wrong with it.
That's a huge red flag.
Speaker 1 (27:21):
I've done that.
Yeah, it makes sense.
Speaker 2 (27:24):
Because you can think it's the greatest thing since
sliced bread.
But if no one else does, itdoesn't matter.
Like it doesn't, you're notgoing to be.
The whole idea in terms ofputting an app out into the
market is what I'm saying.
Like it doesn't matter.
If you think it's a great idea,it's.
Does the market validate it?
(27:45):
Does the market need somethinglike this and want to do
something like this?
Because people fall in lovewith their ideas very, very
quickly.
Speaker 1 (27:55):
No, definitely, and so I mean it is, it is so.
It is so interesting because,like this whole mindset of of
having an app and you knowalmost for a company as well,
like of having an app and youknow almost for a company as
well, like it, it almost givesyou a little bit of this weird
authority to say you have an appright, um, and I know because
(28:16):
we have, like, we have a mealplan app right and it was, uh,
it's a, a white labeled app.
But like, people find out wehave an app and they're like, oh
, my goodness, like all of asudden they put you on this
pedestal in terms of brandingcompared to a competitor that
doesn't have an app.
So I would say, what kind ofbusinesses would benefit most,
(28:37):
in your opinion, from having anapp, versus, maybe, ones that
maybe don't need one necessarily?
Does that make sense?
Speaker 2 (28:48):
Yeah, and it's a very broad thing.
But if you are, I mean, when Ifirst started out, we worked
exclusively with coaches andcontent creators.
It was people who had just allkinds of memberships and
communities.
It was kind of the precursor toschool, you know, of like hey,
(29:08):
put all your content and yourstuff in one place.
That's a great use case for it.
That's just one thing you know.
And then, in terms of appsspecifically, yeah, like
restaurants, you know, like yousaid, gyms, a lot of like local
(29:29):
types of businesses can reallybenefit from it, and we actually
just got done launching one foran ice cream shop.
So we're starting to kind ofroll out this new offer for ice
cream shops.
I mean, even think about likefinancial advisors, you know,
you know people like that thatjust work individually with
(29:50):
people for maybe a high ticketprice but also can make
commission on things.
I mean, think about how howmuch differentiation you have as
someone who's like hey, we havethis, we're going to onboard
you.
You download our app.
It has everything in there foryou.
It's like, it's like a whiteglove service, you know.
(30:10):
It's like it was.
It's different than just saying, hey, go on our website and
fill out this jot form that doesthis and does that and whatever
like that, that can be cool.
But you know what, if there wassomething that was just like
completely handled everythingand like all of your stuff is
right there, like that's such adifferentiator, right?
So, um, I say any businessusually, but obviously there's.
(30:32):
You know, that's a very, verybroad answer to a broad question
.
But you know, if you're lookingto streamline things, like one
thing we actually did, um, for aclient, uh, not long ago was
modernize something.
Right, like there was a she'san animal chiropractor who works
with vets and different clientsand they had this outdated
(30:53):
texting and even faxing processof trying to coordinate.
Like hey, am I allowed to dothis to this animal and do that
and get the vet's approval andall these other things.
And we built a streamlinedprocess inside of one app.
So there's a her view, there'sa client view, there's a vet
view, that everyone's on thesame page all the time.
So even some it's like it'sthinking outside the box.
(31:15):
I talked about this on one ofmy recent podcast episodes of
just thinking outside of the box, of oh, I need, I need an app
for this or I need a softwarefor this or like this could be a
digitized process.
You know, and there's so many,so many things.
We could be here all daytalking about all of them, you
know.
Speaker 1 (31:36):
No, honestly, that's the interesting part about it.
It's like if you open up yourmind to the potential or
possibilities that you could do,right, because I mean, some of
the things that you'veemphasized, I mean, in previous
stuff is you can use it formarketing, you could use it for
lead generation, you could useit for increasing customer
retention and engagement, right.
So it really comes down to youknow what you're looking for,
(31:57):
and even for us as a gym, like alot of our things are to try to
increase engagement andretention, but at the end of the
day, it does act as a marketingtool or a lead generation tool
to try to move something downthe pipeline you know of, you
know kind of going back toRussell Brunson's, you know
staircase and you know theoryand kind of funnels and stuff
(32:19):
like that, right?
So what, what would you say towhat kind of app or or app
engagement really increasesretention?
Speaker 2 (32:31):
Um, well, you know, there there's a old stat.
I'd have to look up what thenewest numbers are.
But you know they say, uh, liketext messaging and emails, like
what, what are the open rates?
What are the click throughrates, right?
Um, there was a stat I, I Idon't have the latest numbers
that I should.
I apologize, I'm making myselflook bad here, but push
notifications right.
(32:51):
When you get those pushnotifications on your phone,
there was I think there was likean 85 or 90% open rate, even
like a couple of years ago,especially from something that
is like we just joined a groupthrough our church, right, and
they communicate through signalis the app that they use.
When I see that the only groupI have on there, and when I see
(33:15):
a notification that somebodymessaged that, or like whatsapp
or whatever, I click on that,like I'm going to open that,
like I'm interested, like what'swhat's going on, right.
So it's different when you havelike facebook, instagram, like
when you get tons ofnotifications through things or
whatever.
But those are really reallycool ways, right.
And then that comes back to themarketing hook story offer of
(33:39):
how are we, what are we doing tohook?
What's the story we're telling.
Is it new content?
We're putting out a new offer,we're putting out a limited time
thing again, creativity, butthen driving people to sign a
page, a free trial page, aspecial offer page, a yoga class
sign up, whatever the casemight be those are really,
(33:59):
really cool ways to do that.
I mean even think I love to usethe McDonald's app as an example
.
I mean even think I love to, Ilove to use the McDonald's app
as an example.
Right, you hear commercials allthe time of hey, you know,
download our app and get a freefry or get a, get a 50% discount
on whatever.
Like that's something thatpeople can use to drive.
(34:21):
Again, retention, additionalsales, things like that
Exclusive only content,exclusive only deals inside of
this members area, this app,this whatever.
So, use your imagination forhow you could implement
something like that.
That's a very, very awesomething.
When I hear all thosecommercials, I'm like, oh,
(34:41):
that's genius that's so genius.
Speaker 1 (34:43):
No, it is.
That is so genius.
I mean, I used Chipotle as thereference of why we have a
rewards, uh, software andeverything like that, because I
go to chipotle and every timeyou the app push notification
you write does show up and I'mlike, oh yeah, I have points,
you know, and so we have that atthe gym as well, because I was
like you know, it works atchipotle, it works at starbucks,
it works at, you know, like yousaid, mcdonald's.
Obviously there's a reason whyall these big companies are
(35:06):
doing it.
You know it'll work for the gymand, honestly, it has helped a
lot, right?
So that engagement and thatretention it does really come
from, you know, innovation,essentially, and being open to
that innovation.
So before we wrap up, I like toask one question, right, and
this question is a legacy wallquestion, right, right?
(35:27):
So on Dan's legacy wall, it'sand again, it's not a tombstone
I have to say that because somepeople give me tombstone answers
on this legacy wall, what isthe one piece of advice that you
would leave for the up andcoming generations that you've
learned along your life'sjourney?
That is a good one.
Speaker 2 (35:51):
You know I could probably say a lot of things.
Can I give you a couple?
Yeah, okay, I think one thingI've learned inside of being
what I do and inside of no codeand just being in business in
general um, done is better thanperfect.
I think.
I think that's worth that.
(36:12):
Like that's the first thingthat came to my mind that popped
into my head when you said that.
So I think that that's.
That says something about that.
But you know, done is betterthan perfect.
Um, because the world is movingso fast anymore, because the
world is moving so fast anymore,you have to move fast, you have
(36:32):
to execute.
There's no such thing as amillion-dollar idea, there's
only million-dollar execution.
I think Billie Jean said that.
I love that quote Done isbetter than perfect.
But I will add another thing,which I actually have a quote up
here on my wall.
I guess you could call it myactual legacy wall, I call it my
(36:53):
motivation wall.
But I love the speech from AnyGiven Sunday Game of Inches.
Life is a game of inches.
I've watched that speech Idon't know probably once a week.
I freaking love it.
I cannot get enough of it.
You know, in life and footballit's a game of inches and I
(37:15):
think business can be a game ofinches too Like there can be.
There can be opportunitieseverywhere.
The inches you need areeverywhere around you.
You know the opportunities thatyou need, the customers that
you need, the, the, the successthat you're looking for is
everywhere around you.
It's just are you going to bewilling to crawl inch by inch to
(37:37):
to, to find it, to get it?
You know, um, I, I love, I lovethat quote.
I just had to throw that extraone in there for you.
I hope, hope you appreciated it.
Speaker 1 (37:47):
But yeah, those would be my two it doesn't matter if
it stays in your head.
The only thing that matters isthe actions that you take or the
(38:08):
inactions that you don't take,right, so I love that.
And then it is true, it isabout inches.
It's not about these huge leaps, right, it's, sometimes it's
small increments, so I love bothof those.
Where can people connect withyou at?
Speaker 2 (38:21):
Yeah, so I love to have people come and listen to
my podcast as well.
It's called Tech BytesB-Y-T-E-S.
I'm actually going through aseries called the no Code
Advantage right now which Ithink people, if you appreciated
this episode, you'll get a lotout of those.
It's like a 10-episode seriesI'm putting through.
(38:43):
I'm about halfway through itright now, so you can definitely
check that out anywhere you getyour podcasts.
And then I'm also, you know,DapperNoCodecom is our site
where we have all our differentportfolios and services and
calculators and all kinds ofcool stuff over there.
Speaker 1 (39:00):
So.
So, guys, that all that will bein the show notes.
If you watch it on YouTube,it'll be in the video
description.
Make sure you guys share thisepisode with a friend you never
know who.
What friend has a cool you knowapp idea in their head and they
might bring you along becauseyou showed them this episode.
So, you know, here's your,here's your one inch that might,
uh might, help progress you.
(39:21):
So, dan, I want to say you know, thank you so much again for
taking the time out of your day.
You know it was awesome.
I learned a lot as well, anddefinitely going to be checking
out the website and everythingand see how we can integrate our
stuff a little bit better andmaybe even just make a singular
app to kind of consolidateeverything.
So, again, thank you so muchfor taking the time out of your
day.
Thank you, I appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (39:42):
No negative vibes, only positive thoughts.
Fist in the game.
Life mindset causes shites.
Got my mind on the prize.
I can't be distracted.
I stay on my grind.
No time to be slackin'.
I hustle harder.
I go against the current Cause.
I know my mind is rich to becollected.
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