Dr. Debbi Silber shares her journey from personal betrayal to becoming a leading expert in post-betrayal syndrome, revealing the predictable path to healing that can transform pain into purpose. Her groundbreaking research identifies the specific physical, mental, and emotional symptoms that affect betrayal survivors, while providing a clear roadmap through five stages of recovery that anyone can follow.
• Defining betrayal as the breaking of spoken or unspoken rules in a relationship
• Physical symptoms of post-betrayal syndrome include low energy, sleep issues, and digestive problems
• Mental symptoms include feeling overwhelmed, inability to focus, and difficulty concentrating
• Emotional symptoms include extreme sadness, anger, and most significantly, an inability to trust
• Most people get stuck in stage three (survival mode) where they numb their pain and cling to their story
• Moving to stages four and five requires letting go of what no longer serves you
• Four powerful questions to ask yourself to begin healing: Are you numbing/avoiding? What are you pretending not to see? What happens if you continue this path? What could happen if you change?
• The choice between "hard now, easy later" versus "easy now, hard later"
• Transformation begins when you tell yourself the truth
Visit the PBT Institute website to take the free Post-Betrayal Syndrome quiz and learn more about healing from betrayal.
Thanks for listening & being part of the Mindset Cafe Community.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Yeah, it's Mindset Cafe.
We all about that mindset.
Gotta stay focused.
Now go settle for the last.
It's all in your head how youthink you manifest.
So get ready to rise, cause weabout to be the best.
Gotta switch it up.
Gotta break the old habits.
Get your mind right.
Turn your dreams into habits.
No negative vibes, onlypositive vibes.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
What is up, guys?
Welcome back to another episodeof the Mindset Cafe podcast.
It's your boy, Devin, and todaywe are diving into a topic that
hits home for so many, and thatis betrayal.
Right, whether it's yourpersonal life, your relations or
even in your professional world, betrayal leaves a mark.
But what if there's a path notjust to healing but to complete
(00:41):
transformation?
Our guest and I'm so honored tohave her on because she is a
doctor and she is soknowledgeable in this but Dr
Debbie Silber.
She is a holistic psychologist,the founder of the PBT you know
, I'm getting tongue tied todayPBT Institute and the leading
expert on what she has coined asthe post-betrayal syndrome.
(01:03):
She is a two-time number oneinternational bestselling author
and a TEDx speaker, and she isthe host of the podcast From
Betrayal to Breakthrough.
So, with further ado, dr Debbie, thank you so much for coming
on today.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
Thank you, looking forward to our conversation.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
So I like to start every episode with a rewind and
dive into your upbringing.
What was your upbringing likeand how did that kind of lead to
where you currently are?
Speaker 1 (01:30):
Yeah Well, you know you can imagine you don't study
something like betrayal unlessyou have to.
So it was.
It was kind of rocky and then Ihad a.
It was a family betrayal, sopainful, thought I did what I
needed to do to heal from that.
And then it happened again afew years later.
This time it was my husbandthat was the deal breaker.
Anybody who's been through ityou know.
(01:51):
You're blindsided, devastated,shocked, and usually I go to
books or courses or something tohelp me through things and
personal development.
Right and there there wasn'tanything.
I couldn't find anything.
But I had four kids, six dogs,a business.
I had to get it together.
So I decided to study it at thePhD level, purely just so I
(02:13):
could heal.
And then it was time to do astudy.
So I studied betrayal and thatstudy led to three
groundbreaking discoveries whichchanged my health, my family,
my work, my life.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
Okay.
I mean, if you don't mind andif it's okay to talk about that,
can we talk about what thebetrayal was?
I mean, it must've been strongto lead into the route that
you've gone.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
Yeah.
So with the family betrayal itwas lies, deception.
You feel like it's where thatmask is just pulled off and
you're absolutely blindsided.
Didn't see it coming that kindof thing.
And with my husband it wasinfidelity.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
Okay, and so I mean and I'm sorry to hear that
that's horrible first off butwhat I mean, were you, you
started studying after, I'massuming, the husband incident,
or were you already kind ofgoing, getting your master's in
maybe a different field andswitched, or?
Speaker 1 (03:12):
Yeah, no, I've been in business 33 years.
It was health, and then mindsetand personal development and
really going that route, justsort of helping people with
their lifestyle and inphysically, just sort of helping
people with their lifestyle andphysically, mentally and
emotionally.
But then when the betrayalhappened, I just like I said I
couldn't find anything to helpme and I thought, if I study my
(03:39):
way through this and if I figureout a way to and I remember
this one moment too where I'mgoing through this program and I
said I have no idea how I'mgoing to heal from this, but if
I do, I'm taking everybody withme.
I mean, I hadn't been in schoolin 30 years, so for me to go
back for a PhD like that's awhole other part of my mind I
hadn't used in decades.
But I felt so called, just socalled to do it.
(04:01):
It was divine intervention forsure, called just so called to
do it.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
It was divine intervention, for sure.
I got to say going back to geta PhD, let alone go back to
school.
I mean not the same instance,but I was one of the few kids
that got kicked out of collegefor two years.
I got suspended in college, youknow, and it was for fraternity
stuff.
But going back I was on my lastsemester, mind you, Like I had
(04:27):
already.
You know, I had started mycareer as a personal trainer and
it was like my hardest class,if I go back, is the history of
the Olympics.
It's all electives, I don'tneed to go back.
But then it was that man likeyou started something, finish it
.
But going back after two years,even though the classes weren't
difficult, it was stilldifficult.
So I can't even imagine and Igive hats off to you for going
(04:48):
back and getting a PhD.
That is mind-blowing.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
Seriously, it was crazy.
I went back at 50.
But here's what's even crazierand, by the way, I was a
personal trainer back in 91,a-certified, so probably before
you were born, and that was awhole other career.
That's really where it began.
But I remember graduating fromthe PhD program and I get an
email from this really nice guyand he's like oh, we're going to
(05:13):
be graduating together.
I'm like, oh great, let me knowwho you are, so this way we can
find each other.
And he goes well, remind me ofyour name.
He goes I'm not so great withthat anymore, I'm 78.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
Wow, 78.
So I was like what am Icomplaining about going back at
50?
That just shows you you can doanything at any time in life.
You just have to have thewillingness and the courage to
essentially take that step Right.
And I mean I'm I'm sure it wasuncomfortable for you at certain
points as well, because ofmaybe the age gap and so forth.
I remember in college Iremember going for my bachelor's
(05:48):
, that I had people that are intheir 40s and their 50s getting
their bachelor's as well, andfor me I didn't mind it.
But then I thought about itlater in life and putting myself
in their shoes.
Imagine if you're in a roomfull of 21, 25-year-olds.
It must feel a little bitawkward.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
Well, what was really funny was, you know, I had four
kids who were in school at thetime and they're complaining
about their work and I'm like oh, you think that's bad, you know
and I'm talking about myschoolwork and stuff, but still
managing my business man a greatbusiness at the time and uh,
and it was so interestingbecause all of a sudden, the
clients that were coming my wayit was mostly lifestyle back
(06:27):
then but then all of a sudden Istart getting people coming my
way who were trying to heal froma betrayal and I wasn't ready
to share this publicly but I wasdoing everything the research
proved I was doing.
I was sort of my own case studyand so I was sharing it with
them.
And they were heavily medicated, they were numbing, they were
just a wreck.
(06:49):
And they were like how are youdoing this?
And I'm like all I'm doing iswhat I'm learning and
implementing.
And that became the beginningof just one of the three really
exciting discoveries.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
No, I mean, that's amazing.
I do want to dive out into thatin one sec, but I do want to
ask what was the business thatyou ran?
Speaker 1 (07:08):
Yeah, so I was a coach for, like I said, I mean
33 years I'm in business.
So it started as a personaltrainer.
I was a personal trainer and Icreated that business because I
was going back to school for anMSRD, Holistic, Registered
Dietitian, Master's in Nutritionand then I became a whole
health coach and then afunctional diagnostic
(07:29):
nutritionist and then certifiedin quantum human design and
quantum alignment system and I,you know, I was just a junkie
for all kinds of holistichealing modalities and other
stuff, to emotion code, I mean.
I became certified in all thesedifferent things but when that
betrayal happened I was like, ohno, no, no, I think I need a
whole PhD in this.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
I mean, we do have that similar in common.
I don't have as many of thosecertifications or degrees under
my belt, but it always interestsme, like I literally just got
my life coach certification justto get it just to.
You know, when people saythey're a life coach, I'm like
what are they learning that youknow?
And it's like so I'm justinterested in all those
different.
You know mindset developmentand the psychology behind things
(08:14):
and you know all the differentbetween fitness and you know
nutrition and mindset.
It's so interesting.
So I love that you are a livingtestament to that because it
shows so much.
But I really want to ask toothe holistic approach right In
your opinion?
Is there a reason to goholistic versus non-holistic, or
(08:37):
is there a, I guess, benefit toholistic?
Speaker 1 (08:41):
I always believe you're better off preventing
something than having to healfrom it.
I mean, that was just a knowingthat I had since years, decades
, decades, and it just to memakes more sense.
I mean, when you think aboutwhat's, when you think about the
body that we have.
We need to take care of it.
So what's the best way to takecare of it?
(09:02):
It's a way that is supportiveand natural to the body, right?
Like all kinds of drugs andmeds are not what we're designed
to take.
And then you think about it.
If we're supposed to be on amedication forever, like whose
best interest is that?
The body is supposed to behealthy.
The body wants to be healthy.
Body wants to move.
You know what are we feeding it?
(09:22):
How are we treating it?
How are we working with it?
But the mind is just aspowerful.
I see so often with a lot ofhealth people, they're so busy
being focused on the body andthat's powerful.
But the mind has so much to dowith how the body shows up.
Like, for example, 45% ofeveryone betrayed has a gut
(09:43):
issue, right, crohn's, ibs,diverticulitis, you name it.
And here's what's sointeresting People go to the
most amazing gut experts.
I'm friends with a lot of themto manage.
You know this digestive issue,but if at the root of it is this
unhealed betrayal, what happensis we deal with the root, the
gut heals.
So to me we have to reallymanage the mind and the emotions
(10:08):
just as much as the body.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
I know it's definitely true, Like that's
where I like to talk about, likethe placebo effect.
Right, the mind has so much todo with how your body does show
up, like you're saying, becauseyou give two groups, two test
groups, one the drug one, notgroups.
You know, one, the drug one,not.
Some people in the one thatdidn't have it are going to have
(10:31):
that placebo effect and startto get some of the results
because they think that theyhave this in their system, Right
?
Speaker 1 (10:35):
And you know, even in my research, I saw something
like that.
It's like I assumed that thepeople who were the hardest hit
would grow the least becausethey had the most to overcome.
That had nothing to do with it.
Nothing to do with it.
You know, it was the ones whoput their head down and said I'm
not picking it up till I'm out.
The other side, they blew thedoors off of the ones that were
numbing, avoiding, distracting,doing a bunch of other things.
(10:57):
So how we move through things,taking on the idea that this
isn't my story, this can be apivotal chapter in my story, but
this doesn't have to be mywhole story.
I mean, what we do withsomething makes all the
difference in the world.
I mean, there are people whothey've been betrayed.
It becomes their life story,it's a whole thing and that's it
and more of the same andwhatever.
(11:18):
And then there are people.
We see it every single daywithin our community that
they've taken that experienceand it was the launchpad to
their transformation.
That was the launchpad to theirnew level of health, their new
business, their new passionproject.
It all happens based on what wedecide to do with it.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
No, 100%.
So let's dive into the betrayalpart right, because I mean
that's going to be what a lot ofpeople are waiting for us to
talk about.
You know what kind of I guess,what, what, what are the most
common forms of betrayal thatcan start to trigger something?
Because I know there's probablya wide spectrum of betrayal
feelings, but what are the mostcommon that you've seen or that
(11:57):
you've learned about, thatpeople can start having
basically symptoms or, or youknow, being affected by yeah,
well, you know.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
Let me start by this.
I define betrayal as thebreaking of a spoken or unspoken
rule, and every relationshiphas them.
The way it works is the more wetrust, the more we depend on
that person, the deeper thebetrayal.
So, for example, a child who'stotally dependent on their
parent, that's going to have adifferent level of impact than,
let's say, your best friendsharing your secret right.
Still, betrayals, differentlevel of cleanup, what I see,
(12:24):
the ones that break us.
We're never broken, bent.
You know what I mean.
The ones that most, those arethe families and the partners,
because these were the peoplethat gave us a sense of safety
and security.
So when the person who givesyou a sense of safety and
security is the very person totake it away, it's traumatizing.
Those are the ones that get usthe most.
The other ones infuriate us,make us crazy, but they don't.
Speaker 2 (12:47):
They don't have the same impact like the partners
and family I know, I coulddefinitely see that and I would
even go as far as far to saylike as though everyone has
friends and they'll probably saythey have, you know, five best
friends, but you have that onebest friend that you know, that
ride or die that you've had foryears, and everything like that,
and it could I feel like itcould hurt just as much from
(13:09):
them as well.
Right, because they almost feellike family.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
But that's the thing.
When it's, when it's thatcloseness of the, let's say, the
same level of closest as afamily member or a partner, yeah
, those are the ones thatdevastate us.
I mean, all the other onesinfuriate us, make us angry.
We can even get angry at youknow, I remember in my research
there was this thing, I think itwas called the love turns to
hate principle, and this wasabout companies.
We can, let's say, there's aproduct that you love and then
(13:36):
you think this product is goodfor you, but it actually turns
out that it's not.
We will turn on a company sofast because we don't want to be
duped.
We would rather knowinglypurchase something we know is
bad for us, because then it's onus.
But we don't want to be duped,thinking like a company or
product is saying this is goodfor you or this is in your best
(13:57):
interest, and we find out it'snot.
We don't like that at all.
Speaker 2 (14:18):
And I think that's just.
I mean, that's something weshould all strive to live for is
like to be transparent as acompany or as a person, right?
Because even if you get advicefrom a parent, a spouse, a,
sometimes you just tell themlike, hey, I think you should do
this.
But there's these other twoways I thought of as well.
And as a company, even causelike our main company is
actually a gym and we launched afranchise company is when, when
I'm talking to the franchiseyou know, candidate, I, I'm, I'm
transparent.
(14:38):
It's like look, my goal is notto sell you on this, right?
Because if you get sold on thisand it's not what you got sold
on, then this is going to be anawkward partnership for the next
10 years, right?
So I think that's somethingthat we should all strive for.
So I love that you'd actuallytalked about that too, but why-?
Speaker 1 (14:57):
I'll tell you it's been a reason why in my 33 years
of business I mean people canGoogle the living life out of me
and you won't find anything badand it's because I live so
simply and if it's going to hurtsomeone, don't do it, period.
And I assume my mistake is.
I assume other people live bythat same rule and I'm always
sort of shocked and amazed thatthey don't.
(15:17):
But when you live clearly likethat, you don't have to worry
about what you said, you don'thave to worry about what you do
because you are thinking ahead.
How will this land?
Speaker 2 (15:26):
oh, yeah, definitely, and so I mean I want to dive
into, like, the betrayal eveneven more depth, right?
So when or what kind ofsymptoms or what kind of
triggers can happen in both menand women, but then maybe in
(15:47):
gender specific, you know,because I know you know the
genders do take thingsdifferently, and it's not bad,
it's just I know, for a lot ofthe guys at least, that I know
we get closed off, right, wedon't talk, we don't tell
emotions, right, which obviouslyisn't healthy either.
But like, what are some ofthose symptoms that start to
happen after betrayal?
Speaker 1 (16:06):
Yeah, I will tell you , we have a lot of men who come
into the PBT Institute andthey're just not a lot of them
aren't as vocal as the women,but they're grateful that they
have a place to go.
As far as symptoms, that wasactually the second discovery,
and what we found was there's acollection of symptoms physical,
mental and emotional so commonto betrayal.
It's now known as post-betrayalsyndrome.
So we've had over 100,000 pluspeople take our post-betrayal
(16:29):
syndrome quiz to see to whatextent they're struggling.
I'm happy to share some of thesymptoms if you want to hear
them.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 1 (16:35):
Because that would have been an awkward moment if
you said no.
So now imagine over 100,000people men, women, just about
every country's represented.
As much as you're going to hearthe symptoms.
Listen for these numbers, okay.
78% constantly revisit theirexperience.
81% feel a loss of personalpower.
Think about how that wouldaffect you at work just a loss
(16:57):
of personal power.
94% deal with painful triggers.
They can take you right down.
These are the most commonphysical symptoms 71% have low
energy.
68% have sleep issues.
63% have extreme fatigue.
Their adrenals have tanked.
47% have weight changes.
So maybe in the beginning theycan't hold food down.
(17:17):
Later on they're emotionallyeating.
Very common, I said before.
45% have digestive issues.
Most common mental symptoms 78%are overwhelmed.
68% can't focus.
62% can't concentrate.
Let's just stop there.
You're exhausted, you can'tconcentrate, you have a gut
issue.
You have to go to work.
You have to raise your kids.
(17:39):
That's not even emotionally.
Emotionally, 88% experienceextreme sadness.
83% are very angry and you canbounce back and forth between
those two all day long.
79% are stressed.
Just a few more.
This is why I wrote trust.
Again, this one killed me.
84% have an inability to trust.
Think about how an inability totrust would affect your
(18:02):
business.
We can talk about that.
67% prevent themselves fromforming deep relationships
because they're afraid of beinghurt again.
This is where you put the bigwall up.
You're like nope, been there,done that.
No one's getting near me again.
82% find it hard to moveforward.
90% want to move forward, butthey don't know how.
Staggering right.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
Yeah, what's even crazier is and maybe a lot of
them I feel like can beclassified under almost a
similarity to, like, the sevenstages of grief.
Is it grief?
Speaker 1 (18:39):
Five Five stages.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
Yeah, I knew it was going five or seven, but five
stages of grief it sounds like alot of.
It can be classified undersomething like that and I wonder
if there's a symbolism between,or a similarity between, those
triggers in the brain when youlose someone or when you
essentially lose someone becauseof betrayal.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
Yeah, it is a loss.
It is a loss.
And you know what's evencrazier about that?
And then I'll get to the fivestages.
What's even crazier about thatis, first of all, you didn't
hear me say 20%, 30%.
The numbers are super high.
They're also not necessarily arepresentation of a recent
betrayal.
This could be from the partnerwho broke your heart in high
school, or the parent who didsomething awful when you were a
kid.
So think about this.
(19:23):
That person may not know care,remember, they may not even be
alive.
And here you are with symptomsall these years later because of
what was left unhealed.
The good news is we could healfrom all of it, which was the
third discovery, and similar tothe five stages, those are the
five stages of grief.
What was so exciting?
For me?
This was the most exciting ofthe discoveries.
(19:43):
We learned that, while we canstay stuck for years, decades, a
lifetime and so many people do,if we're going to fully heal,
we will move through five proven, predictable stages.
And we even learned whathappens physically, mentally and
emotionally at each of thosestages, and we know what it
takes to move from one stage tothe next.
Healing is entirely predictable.
Speaker 2 (20:04):
That's interesting.
So what are the five stages ofbetrayal?
Like going through it?
Speaker 1 (20:10):
Yeah, sure.
So the first is before ithappens.
And if you can imagine fourlegs of a table, the four legs
being physical, mental,emotional and spiritual what I
saw with everybody me too was aheavy lean on the physical and
mental thinking and doing we'reso good at that and kind of
neglecting or ignoring theemotional and the spiritual
feeling and being.
Well, if a table only has twolegs, it's going to be easy for
(20:30):
that table to topple over.
That's us Stage two shocktrauma, D-Day, discovery day.
This is the scariest of all ofthe stages and this is the
breakdown of the body, the mindand the worldview.
So, right here you've ignitedthe stress response.
You are now headed for everysingle stress-related symptom
illness, condition, disease.
Your mind is like you cannotwrap your mind around what you
(20:54):
just learned.
This makes no sense and yourwhole worldview is shattered.
Right, your mental model, trustthis person.
These are the rules.
In one earth shattering momentor series of moments, every rule
you've been following is nolonger.
The bottom has bottomed out onyou and a new bottom hasn't been
formed yet.
This is terrifying, right?
But think about it.
If the bottom were to bottomout on you, what would you do?
(21:17):
You grab hold of anything oranyone in order to stay safe,
right and stay alive.
That's stage three.
Survival instincts emerge.
This is by far where mostpeople get stuck right here.
And what happens is the reasonwhy we get stuck here is because
, once we figured out how tosurvive our experience, because
(21:39):
it feels so much better than theshock and trauma we just came
from, we think it's good.
And because we don't knowthere's anywhere else to go we
don't know about stage four orstage five we're like all right,
better figure out a way to makethis work.
We plant roots here.
We're not supposed to, we don'tknow that and four things start
to happen.
You're going to see so many ofyour clients right here in what
I say.
The first thing is we startgetting all those small self
(22:02):
benefits.
We get to be right.
We get someone to blame, we getour story we love our story
right.
We get sympathy from everyonewe tell our story to.
So we plant deeper roots.
And now, because the mind ishere longer than we should be,
now, we start thinking thingslike you know, maybe you're not
that great, maybe you deservedit, maybe this, maybe that.
So we plant deeper roots.
(22:22):
And now, because these are thethoughts we're thinking.
Well, this is the energy we'reputting out, like energy,
attracts like energy.
So now we're calling situationsand circumstances and bad deals
and bad relationships becausethis is where we feel we belong,
Like here's where we go totherapy and a well-meaning
therapist who isn't highlyskilled in betrayal we will feel
(22:44):
heard, validated, understood.
It's gluing us in this spot,right here's where we're healing
.
Our betrayer has no intention ofchanging.
We're afraid to outgrow them.
We sabotage ourselves.
Here's where we joined thatlame support group and then we
found our people.
So we sabotage ourselves.
Right, and it gets worse.
But I'll get you out of hereBecause it feels so bad.
But we don't know there'sanywhere else to go.
(23:05):
Right here we start numbing.
So now we start using food,drugs, alcohol, whatever you
know, to numb, avoid anddistract.
So we do it for a day, a week,a month to have it right.
A year, 10 years, 20 years.
And I can see someone 20 yearslater and say that emotional
eating, you're doing that,drinking, you think that has
anything to do with yourbetrayal.
And they look at me like I'mcrazy.
(23:25):
You see, it happened 20 yearsago.
All they did was put themselvesat stage three and stay there.
That makes sense yeah yeah, andthat's where most people live.
Can I get you to stages fourand five?
Speaker 2 (23:38):
yeah, I mean that's.
That's.
The interesting part too islike we get to that point and
then we put down the rootsbecause we just think that this
is what it is, this is wherethis is the most that can happen
, but we don't usually knowwhat's on the other side of the
horizon.
We just got to kind of keeppushed through that barrier and
get uncomfortable a little bitand take steps of the unknown.
So I mean, dive into the stagefour and five a little bit more,
(24:01):
yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
And think about it, that whole stage three life
repeat betrayals, more of thesame, tamping down, symptoms of
post-betrayal syndrome.
Your immune system issuppressed, accelerated aging.
There is nothing good comingfrom that stage.
Anyway, if you're willing tolet go of the story all it gives
you grieve, mourn, the lost, abunch of things you move to
(24:23):
stage four.
Stage four is finding andadjusting to a new normal.
So here's where you acknowledgeI can't undo what happened, but
I control what I do with it.
Right, in that decision you'returning down the stress response
.
You're not healing just yet,but you just stopped the massive
damage you've been creating instages two and stage three.
Stage four feels like if you'veever moved, if you've ever moved
(24:45):
to a new house, office,whatever, like your stuff's not
there.
You know it's not cozy.
You're like, ok, we can do this, we got this right, that
hopeful excitement.
But think about it, if you wereto move, you don't take
everything with you, right, youdon't take those things that
(25:07):
don't represent who you're nowready to become.
And what I found was there'sthis one spot as people leave
stage three and enter into stagefour.
If your friends weren't therefor you, you've outgrown them.
You're done the lame supportgroup.
You're done.
That betrayer who's notchanging.
You're done.
That therapist who's keepingyou stuck.
You're done.
And people, they say to me allthe time Dr Debbie, I've had
these people in my life for solong.
Is it me?
Yes, you're undergoing atransformation.
If they don't rise, they don'tcome.
Anyway, when you settle intothis space, you make it sort of
(25:30):
mentally home.
You move into the fifth mostbeautiful place, and this is
healing, rebirth and a newworldview.
The body starts to healSelf-love, self-care, eating
well, exercise.
Now is the time.
We couldn't do that earlier.
We have new boundaries, newrules, new everything based on
the road we traveled, and a newworldview based on everything we
(25:50):
see so clearly now and the fourlegs of the table.
In the beginning, it was allabout the physical and the
mental.
By this point, we're grounded.
We're focused on the emotionaland the spiritual too.
Those are the five stages.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
We're focused on the emotional and the spiritual too.
Those are the five stages.
Oh, I love that and I meansomething you mentioned in stage
four.
I saw something online and itpiqued my interest and it had my
brain really start going and soI wanted to ask your thoughts
on it.
Right, and it was a therapist,I believe, or a doctor in
psychology.
That was talking aboutessentially the therapists that
(26:23):
always bring up the same topicof your trauma and every single
time you're talking about yourtrauma, it doesn't create a
sense of healing because you'realways visiting the same spot
versus trying to reframe and getout and get over, essentially,
and create that new life, newversion of you with the new
table.
Do you agree with that?
(26:43):
What are your thoughts on that?
Speaker 1 (26:45):
Yeah, it's so funny because we have our
certification program fordoctors, coaches, healers,
therapists, so that theyunderstand the five stages.
And it's so funny because thetherapists have the hardest time
with the certification, becausethe whole idea is I don't care
if you move that personincrementally or in a bigger way
they are moving towards thenext stage.
(27:06):
every single time they'resitting down with you and the
therapist well-meaning, theywant to have that person feel
heard, validated, understood.
That's really important.
But if the only thing they'redoing is feeling heard,
validated, understood, it'sseriously.
It's like crazy glue for stagethree because now they think
they're receiving so muchbenefit from getting it off
(27:28):
their chest.
But if you check into how youfeel after that, you know what
did you get.
I remember sitting down with oneof our members and we have a
group call with me every otherweek in our community and he
said you know, I just can't stopthinking about this.
And I said you know, do youhave a calculator?
Get out a calculator.
(27:48):
So he takes out his phonecalculator on his phone.
And I said let's do some math.
Math has no place in betrayal,except for a place like this.
And he said okay, I go.
When was your betrayal?
And he said 40 years ago.
I said 40.
Okay, how many times a day doyou think about your betrayal?
And he's like I don't know,between five and 10.
So, okay, let's go with seven,seven, how long do you think
(28:08):
about it when you think about it?
I don't know.
10, 15 minutes, all right, andplug that in.
So we did the math, whatever.
That turned into something likeoh.
And then I asked him.
I said okay, anyway.
I said let's do that.
It turned into five years.
So I said okay.
So look at this.
Nothing has happened in thatfive years.
(28:32):
It's like you took yourself,put yourself in a cage for five
years.
Was there any one time that youcame out of it with a nugget of
insight, a new awareness, a newperspective?
No, so you've essentially spentfive years of your life doing
nothing but making yourself sick, staying stuck.
Do you see what's going onright here?
Sometimes we need the hammer tobed.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
And it's crazy when you put it into a different
perspective, like that, right,because you think, oh, it's only
five minutes of my day.
But when you compound it andshow what that is over the last
40 years, right, it's crazybecause at 40 years, so you had
35 years that you were actuallyliving and five years were just
dwelling, right, and that's likethe part where, too, where I
(29:17):
think that you know, let's say,someone cuts you off in traffic,
right, and the instant took,you know.
Let's say, someone cuts you offin traffic, right and the
instant took, you know, fiveseconds or even a millisecond,
but then you let it affect, youknow, the next five hours of
your day thinking about theperson that cut you off in
traffic, right, and it's likeyou got to let it go or else
everything else.
You're wasting precious timejust thinking about something
(29:39):
that happened.
You can't have any change overit.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
You know, and it's so much more than that too,
because now you're floodingyourself with stress-induced
hormones and chemicals, you'recreating aging, weight gain,
illness and disease.
What you feed grows.
So now you're looking for moreconfirming evidence to support
this idea of I don't matter,people don't treat me well or
(30:05):
whatever, and your mind's likeoh, I didn't realize you wanted
this going.
Okay, fine, we'll look forconfirming evidence for you.
And we create this whole lifewhere it starts out as just a
thought or something, and whatwe, the energy and the emotion
we put behind it, creates ourwhole life.
If it starts out is just athought or something, and what
we, the energy and the emotionwe put behind it, creates our
whole life.
If you're not sure what youbelieve, take a look at your
life.
Your life is a 100%representation of every belief
(30:29):
you hold.
All your beliefs got you righthere, so if you want something
else, it's going to take a verydifferent belief system to get
you there.
Speaker 2 (30:37):
Oh, 100%.
I don't disagree with that oneword out of any of that.
What's one thing if someone isstuck in that third stage, what
is one thing that they can startdoing today to start getting
into stage four and five?
Speaker 1 (30:54):
Yeah, one of the things is we don't even realize
we're numbing ourselves and it'shelpful if you know, because
then it's the first step tochange it.
So actually there are thesefour questions I invite
everybody to write down.
That's my way of saying.
Write these down.
Am I numbing, avoidingdistracting?
If so, how?
Like?
Call yourself on it.
Do you go into the kitchen?
(31:14):
You're not the least bit hungry.
There you are in the fridge,right.
Do you go into a room?
You turn the TV on because youjust want to drown out the sound
of your own thoughts?
Call yourself on it.
The second question this is ahard one.
What am I pretending not to see, right?
Am I pretending not to see?
I hate my job.
Am I pretending not to see thathealth issue that needs my
(31:34):
attention?
Am I pretending not to see?
My relationship is in trouble.
Call yourself on it.
The third question what's lifegoing to look like in five to 10
years if I keep this going?
Play it out the same way you'rehandling it right now.
Look down the road five to 10years what does that health
issue look like?
What does the job look like?
What does the relationship looklike?
And the fourth question whatcan life look like in five to 10
(31:57):
years if I change now?
Right, I'm not saying it's easy.
Transformation begins when youtell yourself the truth.
Speaker 2 (32:04):
And only you know if you're, if you're telling
yourself the truth or if you'relying to yourself.
Speaker 1 (32:08):
Say it 100% yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:10):
So so I mean and I love that because that's one of
the things that like, the two ofthose questions that I tell
people with even just goalsetting, right, you know people
are scared to, you know, takeaction and go towards their.
You know, take action towardstheir goal and really make that
uncomfortable step.
But you have to think about it.
What would this look like if Idon't accomplish this goal?
(32:31):
Or what would this look like ifI did accomplish this goal?
You know what would my lifelook like, what would my
family's life look like, and soforth.
So I love that those samequestions pertain to the
betrayal and overcoming it,because it is so true, you have
to reframe it and you have togive yourself the basic option
one and option two.
You know what they both looklike.
What do you really?
Speaker 1 (32:53):
want.
I love that you brought that up, because this is what I see too
.
People don't want to getuncomfortable.
So, they stay within thefamiliar known.
But all the changes you wantare outside of that familiar
known.
So you know, you know peoplelike well, but, but I'm doing so
much If you're notuncomfortable.
No, you're not.
No, you're not saying, I'vebeen saying in my 33 years of
(33:15):
business.
It really holds true foreverything and it's hard now,
easy later, easy now, hard later.
Take your pick.
It's going to be one of thosetwo.
When it comes to healing frombetrayal, it is nothing less
than hard now, easy later.
But people say, but I've beenmiserable all these years.
Yeah, but you haven't done thedeep, transformative mindset
(33:35):
work of changing the way youthink, to change your life.
Like, for example, after youcrash and burn and life has
blown open, you take all theparts you love and you leave
behind everything that no longerserves right.
And that means when a thoughtcomes in your head, you
reevaluate Do I want to takethis one with me?
You know, am I just being tooeasy?
(33:59):
Am I giving in?
Am I not standing true to myboundaries?
Whatever, if the answer is like, this doesn't belong, you don't
take it with you and you aredeliberately and intentionally
creating a version of you thatdidn't exist before.
That's the hard now stuff I'mtalking about.
But unless you're willing to dothat, yeah, it's going to stink
, but it's only stinking becauseit's more of the same.
Speaker 2 (34:20):
Definitely.
And I almost want to even add adifferent aspect to what you're
saying as well, Cause I believethe same thing hard now, easy
later, easy now, hard later.
But you're you, right nowyou're hard.
You're still there's two, twohearts living in this betrayal.
You know, mindset right thatyou're, you're still there's two
, two hearts living in thisbetrayal.
You know, mindset right thatyou're.
You're at that's hard,overcoming it and going the path
(34:45):
and trying to get it'suncomfortable and it's also hard
.
So you have to choose whichhard you want.
It's easy.
This hard is maybe easier, butit's still.
It's going to be a lot longerof a hard life than suffer a
little bit more right now.
Get uncomfortable to make, youknow, to come out easier on the
other end, Right.
So I, I love that.
Speaker 1 (35:03):
And you have such a better story on the other side.
Like, think about it.
I had a powerful story.
Everybody I really trustedbetrayed me and if I told you
that, you'd give me a lot ofsympathy.
The story I have now that we'rehelping thousands of people
heal from betrayal all the books, all the TEDx talks, a national
holiday this story is so muchbetter.
So you get to choose and Ididn't do anything anybody else
(35:26):
couldn't do.
I was just like the thought ofstaying stuck.
It wasn't an option.
I've trained my mind that thefeeling of what if I can't live
with.
I'd rather do something andfail at it miserably than wonder
what could have been.
Speaker 2 (35:45):
No, a hundred percent .
So I do like to ask one finalquestion.
Right and I know I didn't givethis question to you ahead of
time because I want the firstthing that comes to mind Right,
but this is your legacy wall,right, and on the Dr Debbie
Silver legacy wall.
It's not a tombstone, right?
It is a quote or a message thatyou would leave for the up and
(36:07):
coming generations that you'velearned along your life's
journey, and the message can beshort or long.
But what would your message be?
Speaker 1 (36:14):
Don't stop.
That's it.
That's it, don't stop.
If you have an idea, it'sbecause it's yours.
Don't stop Period.
Speaker 2 (36:27):
I love it.
Sometimes the short ones arethe best ones, because it
applies to so many things.
You want to become more fit?
Don't stop.
You want to get over thisbetrayal?
Don't stop.
It's so true and that's whatpeople don't realize is
sometimes it's not this earthshattering philosophical meaning
(36:48):
or definition, it's like.
It's plain and simple.
Just trust the process anddon't stop.
Speaker 1 (36:52):
And here's the thing you will have everybody telling
you that's so crazy.
What are you doing?
You're nuts.
People told me I was crazygoing back for a PhD at 50,
right, I mean.
But look, it changed my lifeand the lives of so many other
people.
So you will, the more you speakand share your ideas, be very
careful who you share it with.
Right, all the naysayers willbe calling you crazy.
(37:12):
But if it's in, if it comesinto your mind and your heart,
it's because it's yours to do.
Don't stop.
Speaker 2 (37:20):
I love that.
Where can people connect withyou?
Speaker 1 (37:24):
Everything is at the PBT as in post betrayal
transformation, the PBTinstitutecom.
Speaker 2 (37:30):
Awesome.
Well, guys, that will be in theshow notes.
That will also be.
If you're watching on YouTube,that'll be on the video
description.
Make sure you guys go checkthat out.
There is a free quiz on there.
You can take that.
But I just want to say, Dr W,again, thank you so much for
taking the time out of your dayand talk about something that I
know resonates with so manypeople.
Speaker 1 (37:52):
Thank you so much.
Thoughts fencing the game.
Life, mindset calls the shotsGot my mind on the prize.
I can't be distracted.
I stay on my grind, no time tobe slackin'.
I hustle harder.
I go against the current Cause.
I know my mind is rich to becollected.
Yeah, it's Mindset Cafe.
We all about that mindset.
Gotta stay focused.
Now go settle for the last.
It's all in your head how youthink you manifest.
So get ready to rise, cause weabout to be the best.
Gotta switch it up.
Gotta break the old habits.
Get your mind right.
Turn your dreams into habits.
No negative vibes, onlypositive vibes.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
What is up, guys?
Welcome back to another episodeof the Mindset Cafe podcast.
It's your boy, Devin, and todaywe are diving into a topic that
hits home for so many, and thatis betrayal.
Right, whether it's yourpersonal life, your relations or
even in your professional world, betrayal leaves a mark.
But what if there's a path notjust to healing but to complete
(00:41):
transformation?
Our guest and I'm so honored tohave her on because she is a
doctor and she is soknowledgeable in this but Dr
Debbie Silber.
She is a holistic psychologist,the founder of the PBT you know
, I'm getting tongue tied todayPBT Institute and the leading
expert on what she has coined asthe post-betrayal syndrome.
(01:03):
She is a two-time number oneinternational bestselling author
and a TEDx speaker, and she isthe host of the podcast From
Betrayal to Breakthrough.
So, with further ado, dr Debbie, thank you so much for coming
on today.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
Thank you, looking forward to our conversation.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
So I like to start every episode with a rewind and
dive into your upbringing.
What was your upbringing likeand how did that kind of lead to
where you currently are?
Speaker 1 (01:30):
Yeah Well, you know you can imagine you don't study
something like betrayal unlessyou have to.
So it was.
It was kind of rocky and then Ihad a.
It was a family betrayal, sopainful, thought I did what I
needed to do to heal from that.
And then it happened again afew years later.
This time it was my husbandthat was the deal breaker.
Anybody who's been through ityou know.
(01:51):
You're blindsided, devastated,shocked, and usually I go to
books or courses or something tohelp me through things and
personal development.
Right and there there wasn'tanything.
I couldn't find anything.
But I had four kids, six dogs,a business.
I had to get it together.
So I decided to study it at thePhD level, purely just so I
(02:13):
could heal.
And then it was time to do astudy.
So I studied betrayal and thatstudy led to three
groundbreaking discoveries whichchanged my health, my family,
my work, my life.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
Okay.
I mean, if you don't mind andif it's okay to talk about that,
can we talk about what thebetrayal was?
I mean, it must've been strongto lead into the route that
you've gone.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
Yeah.
So with the family betrayal itwas lies, deception.
You feel like it's where thatmask is just pulled off and
you're absolutely blindsided.
Didn't see it coming that kindof thing.
And with my husband it wasinfidelity.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
Okay, and so I mean and I'm sorry to hear that
that's horrible first off butwhat I mean, were you, you
started studying after, I'massuming, the husband incident,
or were you already kind ofgoing, getting your master's in
maybe a different field andswitched, or?
Speaker 1 (03:12):
Yeah, no, I've been in business 33 years.
It was health, and then mindsetand personal development and
really going that route, justsort of helping people with
their lifestyle and inphysically, just sort of helping
people with their lifestyle andphysically, mentally and
emotionally.
But then when the betrayalhappened, I just like I said I
couldn't find anything to helpme and I thought, if I study my
(03:39):
way through this and if I figureout a way to and I remember
this one moment too where I'mgoing through this program and I
said I have no idea how I'mgoing to heal from this, but if
I do, I'm taking everybody withme.
I mean, I hadn't been in schoolin 30 years, so for me to go
back for a PhD like that's awhole other part of my mind I
hadn't used in decades.
But I felt so called, just socalled to do it.
(04:01):
It was divine intervention forsure, called just so called to
do it.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
It was divine intervention, for sure.
I got to say going back to geta PhD, let alone go back to
school.
I mean not the same instance,but I was one of the few kids
that got kicked out of collegefor two years.
I got suspended in college, youknow, and it was for fraternity
stuff.
But going back I was on my lastsemester, mind you, Like I had
(04:27):
already.
You know, I had started mycareer as a personal trainer and
it was like my hardest class,if I go back, is the history of
the Olympics.
It's all electives, I don'tneed to go back.
But then it was that man likeyou started something, finish it
.
But going back after two years,even though the classes weren't
difficult, it was stilldifficult.
So I can't even imagine and Igive hats off to you for going
(04:48):
back and getting a PhD.
That is mind-blowing.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
Seriously, it was crazy.
I went back at 50.
But here's what's even crazierand, by the way, I was a
personal trainer back in 91,a-certified, so probably before
you were born, and that was awhole other career.
That's really where it began.
But I remember graduating fromthe PhD program and I get an
email from this really nice guyand he's like oh, we're going to
(05:13):
be graduating together.
I'm like, oh great, let me knowwho you are, so this way we can
find each other.
And he goes well, remind me ofyour name.
He goes I'm not so great withthat anymore, I'm 78.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
Wow, 78.
So I was like what am Icomplaining about going back at
50?
That just shows you you can doanything at any time in life.
You just have to have thewillingness and the courage to
essentially take that step Right.
And I mean I'm I'm sure it wasuncomfortable for you at certain
points as well, because ofmaybe the age gap and so forth.
I remember in college Iremember going for my bachelor's
(05:48):
, that I had people that are intheir 40s and their 50s getting
their bachelor's as well, andfor me I didn't mind it.
But then I thought about itlater in life and putting myself
in their shoes.
Imagine if you're in a roomfull of 21, 25-year-olds.
It must feel a little bitawkward.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
Well, what was really funny was, you know, I had four
kids who were in school at thetime and they're complaining
about their work and I'm like oh, you think that's bad, you know
and I'm talking about myschoolwork and stuff, but still
managing my business man a greatbusiness at the time and uh,
and it was so interestingbecause all of a sudden, the
clients that were coming my wayit was mostly lifestyle back
(06:27):
then but then all of a sudden Istart getting people coming my
way who were trying to heal froma betrayal and I wasn't ready
to share this publicly but I wasdoing everything the research
proved I was doing.
I was sort of my own case studyand so I was sharing it with
them.
And they were heavily medicated, they were numbing, they were
just a wreck.
(06:49):
And they were like how are youdoing this?
And I'm like all I'm doing iswhat I'm learning and
implementing.
And that became the beginningof just one of the three really
exciting discoveries.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
No, I mean, that's amazing.
I do want to dive out into thatin one sec, but I do want to
ask what was the business thatyou ran?
Speaker 1 (07:08):
Yeah, so I was a coach for, like I said, I mean
33 years I'm in business.
So it started as a personaltrainer.
I was a personal trainer and Icreated that business because I
was going back to school for anMSRD, Holistic, Registered
Dietitian, Master's in Nutritionand then I became a whole
health coach and then afunctional diagnostic
(07:29):
nutritionist and then certifiedin quantum human design and
quantum alignment system and I,you know, I was just a junkie
for all kinds of holistichealing modalities and other
stuff, to emotion code, I mean.
I became certified in all thesedifferent things but when that
betrayal happened I was like, ohno, no, no, I think I need a
whole PhD in this.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
I mean, we do have that similar in common.
I don't have as many of thosecertifications or degrees under
my belt, but it always interestsme, like I literally just got
my life coach certification justto get it just to.
You know, when people saythey're a life coach, I'm like
what are they learning that youknow?
And it's like so I'm justinterested in all those
different.
You know mindset developmentand the psychology behind things
(08:14):
and you know all the differentbetween fitness and you know
nutrition and mindset.
It's so interesting.
So I love that you are a livingtestament to that because it
shows so much.
But I really want to ask toothe holistic approach right In
your opinion?
Is there a reason to goholistic versus non-holistic, or
(08:37):
is there a, I guess, benefit toholistic?
Speaker 1 (08:41):
I always believe you're better off preventing
something than having to healfrom it.
I mean, that was just a knowingthat I had since years, decades
, decades, and it just to memakes more sense.
I mean, when you think aboutwhat's, when you think about the
body that we have.
We need to take care of it.
So what's the best way to takecare of it?
(09:02):
It's a way that is supportiveand natural to the body, right?
Like all kinds of drugs andmeds are not what we're designed
to take.
And then you think about it.
If we're supposed to be on amedication forever, like whose
best interest is that?
The body is supposed to behealthy.
The body wants to be healthy.
Body wants to move.
You know what are we feeding it?
(09:22):
How are we treating it?
How are we working with it?
But the mind is just aspowerful.
I see so often with a lot ofhealth people, they're so busy
being focused on the body andthat's powerful.
But the mind has so much to dowith how the body shows up.
Like, for example, 45% ofeveryone betrayed has a gut
(09:43):
issue, right, crohn's, ibs,diverticulitis, you name it.
And here's what's sointeresting People go to the
most amazing gut experts.
I'm friends with a lot of themto manage.
You know this digestive issue,but if at the root of it is this
unhealed betrayal, what happensis we deal with the root, the
gut heals.
So to me we have to reallymanage the mind and the emotions
(10:08):
just as much as the body.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
I know it's definitely true, Like that's
where I like to talk about, likethe placebo effect.
Right, the mind has so much todo with how your body does show
up, like you're saying, becauseyou give two groups, two test
groups, one the drug one, notgroups.
You know, one, the drug one,not.
Some people in the one thatdidn't have it are going to have
(10:31):
that placebo effect and startto get some of the results
because they think that theyhave this in their system, Right
?
Speaker 1 (10:35):
And you know, even in my research, I saw something
like that.
It's like I assumed that thepeople who were the hardest hit
would grow the least becausethey had the most to overcome.
That had nothing to do with it.
Nothing to do with it.
You know, it was the ones whoput their head down and said I'm
not picking it up till I'm out.
The other side, they blew thedoors off of the ones that were
numbing, avoiding, distracting,doing a bunch of other things.
(10:57):
So how we move through things,taking on the idea that this
isn't my story, this can be apivotal chapter in my story, but
this doesn't have to be mywhole story.
I mean, what we do withsomething makes all the
difference in the world.
I mean, there are people whothey've been betrayed.
It becomes their life story,it's a whole thing and that's it
and more of the same andwhatever.
(11:18):
And then there are people.
We see it every single daywithin our community that
they've taken that experienceand it was the launchpad to
their transformation.
That was the launchpad to theirnew level of health, their new
business, their new passionproject.
It all happens based on what wedecide to do with it.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
No, 100%.
So let's dive into the betrayalpart right, because I mean
that's going to be what a lot ofpeople are waiting for us to
talk about.
You know what kind of I guess,what, what, what are the most
common forms of betrayal thatcan start to trigger something?
Because I know there's probablya wide spectrum of betrayal
feelings, but what are the mostcommon that you've seen or that
(11:57):
you've learned about, thatpeople can start having
basically symptoms or, or youknow, being affected by yeah,
well, you know.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
Let me start by this.
I define betrayal as thebreaking of a spoken or unspoken
rule, and every relationshiphas them.
The way it works is the more wetrust, the more we depend on
that person, the deeper thebetrayal.
So, for example, a child who'stotally dependent on their
parent, that's going to have adifferent level of impact than,
let's say, your best friendsharing your secret right.
Still, betrayals, differentlevel of cleanup, what I see,
(12:24):
the ones that break us.
We're never broken, bent.
You know what I mean.
The ones that most, those arethe families and the partners,
because these were the peoplethat gave us a sense of safety
and security.
So when the person who givesyou a sense of safety and
security is the very person totake it away, it's traumatizing.
Those are the ones that get usthe most.
The other ones infuriate us,make us crazy, but they don't.
Speaker 2 (12:47):
They don't have the same impact like the partners
and family I know, I coulddefinitely see that and I would
even go as far as far to saylike as though everyone has
friends and they'll probably saythey have, you know, five best
friends, but you have that onebest friend that you know, that
ride or die that you've had foryears, and everything like that,
and it could I feel like itcould hurt just as much from
(13:09):
them as well.
Right, because they almost feellike family.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
But that's the thing.
When it's, when it's thatcloseness of the, let's say, the
same level of closest as afamily member or a partner, yeah
, those are the ones thatdevastate us.
I mean, all the other onesinfuriate us, make us angry.
We can even get angry at youknow, I remember in my research
there was this thing, I think itwas called the love turns to
hate principle, and this wasabout companies.
We can, let's say, there's aproduct that you love and then
(13:36):
you think this product is goodfor you, but it actually turns
out that it's not.
We will turn on a company sofast because we don't want to be
duped.
We would rather knowinglypurchase something we know is
bad for us, because then it's onus.
But we don't want to be duped,thinking like a company or
product is saying this is goodfor you or this is in your best
(13:57):
interest, and we find out it'snot.
We don't like that at all.
Speaker 2 (14:18):
And I think that's just.
I mean, that's something weshould all strive to live for is
like to be transparent as acompany or as a person, right?
Because even if you get advicefrom a parent, a spouse, a,
sometimes you just tell themlike, hey, I think you should do
this.
But there's these other twoways I thought of as well.
And as a company, even causelike our main company is
actually a gym and we launched afranchise company is when, when
I'm talking to the franchiseyou know, candidate, I, I'm, I'm
transparent.
(14:38):
It's like look, my goal is notto sell you on this, right?
Because if you get sold on thisand it's not what you got sold
on, then this is going to be anawkward partnership for the next
10 years, right?
So I think that's somethingthat we should all strive for.
So I love that you'd actuallytalked about that too, but why-?
Speaker 1 (14:57):
I'll tell you it's been a reason why in my 33 years
of business I mean people canGoogle the living life out of me
and you won't find anything badand it's because I live so
simply and if it's going to hurtsomeone, don't do it, period.
And I assume my mistake is.
I assume other people live bythat same rule and I'm always
sort of shocked and amazed thatthey don't.
(15:17):
But when you live clearly likethat, you don't have to worry
about what you said, you don'thave to worry about what you do
because you are thinking ahead.
How will this land?
Speaker 2 (15:26):
oh, yeah, definitely, and so I mean I want to dive
into, like, the betrayal eveneven more depth, right?
So when or what kind ofsymptoms or what kind of
triggers can happen in both menand women, but then maybe in
(15:47):
gender specific, you know,because I know you know the
genders do take thingsdifferently, and it's not bad,
it's just I know, for a lot ofthe guys at least, that I know
we get closed off, right, wedon't talk, we don't tell
emotions, right, which obviouslyisn't healthy either.
But like, what are some ofthose symptoms that start to
happen after betrayal?
Speaker 1 (16:06):
Yeah, I will tell you , we have a lot of men who come
into the PBT Institute andthey're just not a lot of them
aren't as vocal as the women,but they're grateful that they
have a place to go.
As far as symptoms, that wasactually the second discovery,
and what we found was there's acollection of symptoms physical,
mental and emotional so commonto betrayal.
It's now known as post-betrayalsyndrome.
So we've had over 100,000 pluspeople take our post-betrayal
(16:29):
syndrome quiz to see to whatextent they're struggling.
I'm happy to share some of thesymptoms if you want to hear
them.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 1 (16:35):
Because that would have been an awkward moment if
you said no.
So now imagine over 100,000people men, women, just about
every country's represented.
As much as you're going to hearthe symptoms.
Listen for these numbers, okay.
78% constantly revisit theirexperience.
81% feel a loss of personalpower.
Think about how that wouldaffect you at work just a loss
(16:57):
of personal power.
94% deal with painful triggers.
They can take you right down.
These are the most commonphysical symptoms 71% have low
energy.
68% have sleep issues.
63% have extreme fatigue.
Their adrenals have tanked.
47% have weight changes.
So maybe in the beginning theycan't hold food down.
(17:17):
Later on they're emotionallyeating.
Very common, I said before.
45% have digestive issues.
Most common mental symptoms 78%are overwhelmed.
68% can't focus.
62% can't concentrate.
Let's just stop there.
You're exhausted, you can'tconcentrate, you have a gut
issue.
You have to go to work.
You have to raise your kids.
(17:39):
That's not even emotionally.
Emotionally, 88% experienceextreme sadness.
83% are very angry and you canbounce back and forth between
those two all day long.
79% are stressed.
Just a few more.
This is why I wrote trust.
Again, this one killed me.
84% have an inability to trust.
Think about how an inability totrust would affect your
(18:02):
business.
We can talk about that.
67% prevent themselves fromforming deep relationships
because they're afraid of beinghurt again.
This is where you put the bigwall up.
You're like nope, been there,done that.
No one's getting near me again.
82% find it hard to moveforward.
90% want to move forward, butthey don't know how.
Staggering right.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
Yeah, what's even crazier is and maybe a lot of
them I feel like can beclassified under almost a
similarity to, like, the sevenstages of grief.
Is it grief?
Speaker 1 (18:39):
Five Five stages.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
Yeah, I knew it was going five or seven, but five
stages of grief it sounds like alot of.
It can be classified undersomething like that and I wonder
if there's a symbolism between,or a similarity between, those
triggers in the brain when youlose someone or when you
essentially lose someone becauseof betrayal.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
Yeah, it is a loss.
It is a loss.
And you know what's evencrazier about that?
And then I'll get to the fivestages.
What's even crazier about thatis, first of all, you didn't
hear me say 20%, 30%.
The numbers are super high.
They're also not necessarily arepresentation of a recent
betrayal.
This could be from the partnerwho broke your heart in high
school, or the parent who didsomething awful when you were a
kid.
So think about this.
(19:23):
That person may not know care,remember, they may not even be
alive.
And here you are with symptomsall these years later because of
what was left unhealed.
The good news is we could healfrom all of it, which was the
third discovery, and similar tothe five stages, those are the
five stages of grief.
What was so exciting?
For me?
This was the most exciting ofthe discoveries.
(19:43):
We learned that, while we canstay stuck for years, decades, a
lifetime and so many people do,if we're going to fully heal,
we will move through five proven, predictable stages.
And we even learned whathappens physically, mentally and
emotionally at each of thosestages, and we know what it
takes to move from one stage tothe next.
Healing is entirely predictable.
Speaker 2 (20:04):
That's interesting.
So what are the five stages ofbetrayal?
Like going through it?
Speaker 1 (20:10):
Yeah, sure.
So the first is before ithappens.
And if you can imagine fourlegs of a table, the four legs
being physical, mental,emotional and spiritual what I
saw with everybody me too was aheavy lean on the physical and
mental thinking and doing we'reso good at that and kind of
neglecting or ignoring theemotional and the spiritual
feeling and being.
Well, if a table only has twolegs, it's going to be easy for
(20:30):
that table to topple over.
That's us Stage two shocktrauma, D-Day, discovery day.
This is the scariest of all ofthe stages and this is the
breakdown of the body, the mindand the worldview.
So, right here you've ignitedthe stress response.
You are now headed for everysingle stress-related symptom
illness, condition, disease.
Your mind is like you cannotwrap your mind around what you
(20:54):
just learned.
This makes no sense and yourwhole worldview is shattered.
Right, your mental model, trustthis person.
These are the rules.
In one earth shattering momentor series of moments, every rule
you've been following is nolonger.
The bottom has bottomed out onyou and a new bottom hasn't been
formed yet.
This is terrifying, right?
But think about it.
If the bottom were to bottomout on you, what would you do?
(21:17):
You grab hold of anything oranyone in order to stay safe,
right and stay alive.
That's stage three.
Survival instincts emerge.
This is by far where mostpeople get stuck right here.
And what happens is the reasonwhy we get stuck here is because
, once we figured out how tosurvive our experience, because
(21:39):
it feels so much better than theshock and trauma we just came
from, we think it's good.
And because we don't knowthere's anywhere else to go we
don't know about stage four orstage five we're like all right,
better figure out a way to makethis work.
We plant roots here.
We're not supposed to, we don'tknow that and four things start
to happen.
You're going to see so many ofyour clients right here in what
I say.
The first thing is we startgetting all those small self
(22:02):
benefits.
We get to be right.
We get someone to blame, we getour story we love our story
right.
We get sympathy from everyonewe tell our story to.
So we plant deeper roots.
And now, because the mind ishere longer than we should be,
now, we start thinking thingslike you know, maybe you're not
that great, maybe you deservedit, maybe this, maybe that.
So we plant deeper roots.
(22:22):
And now, because these are thethoughts we're thinking.
Well, this is the energy we'reputting out, like energy,
attracts like energy.
So now we're calling situationsand circumstances and bad deals
and bad relationships becausethis is where we feel we belong,
Like here's where we go totherapy and a well-meaning
therapist who isn't highlyskilled in betrayal we will feel
(22:44):
heard, validated, understood.
It's gluing us in this spot,right here's where we're healing
.
Our betrayer has no intention ofchanging.
We're afraid to outgrow them.
We sabotage ourselves.
Here's where we joined thatlame support group and then we
found our people.
So we sabotage ourselves.
Right, and it gets worse.
But I'll get you out of hereBecause it feels so bad.
But we don't know there'sanywhere else to go.
(23:05):
Right here we start numbing.
So now we start using food,drugs, alcohol, whatever you
know, to numb, avoid anddistract.
So we do it for a day, a week,a month to have it right.
A year, 10 years, 20 years.
And I can see someone 20 yearslater and say that emotional
eating, you're doing that,drinking, you think that has
anything to do with yourbetrayal.
And they look at me like I'mcrazy.
(23:25):
You see, it happened 20 yearsago.
All they did was put themselvesat stage three and stay there.
That makes sense yeah yeah, andthat's where most people live.
Can I get you to stages fourand five?
Speaker 2 (23:38):
yeah, I mean that's.
That's.
The interesting part too islike we get to that point and
then we put down the rootsbecause we just think that this
is what it is, this is wherethis is the most that can happen
, but we don't usually knowwhat's on the other side of the
horizon.
We just got to kind of keeppushed through that barrier and
get uncomfortable a little bitand take steps of the unknown.
So I mean, dive into the stagefour and five a little bit more,
(24:01):
yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
And think about it, that whole stage three life
repeat betrayals, more of thesame, tamping down, symptoms of
post-betrayal syndrome.
Your immune system issuppressed, accelerated aging.
There is nothing good comingfrom that stage.
Anyway, if you're willing tolet go of the story all it gives
you grieve, mourn, the lost, abunch of things you move to
(24:23):
stage four.
Stage four is finding andadjusting to a new normal.
So here's where you acknowledgeI can't undo what happened, but
I control what I do with it.
Right, in that decision you'returning down the stress response
.
You're not healing just yet,but you just stopped the massive
damage you've been creating instages two and stage three.
Stage four feels like if you'veever moved, if you've ever moved
(24:45):
to a new house, office,whatever, like your stuff's not
there.
You know it's not cozy.
You're like, ok, we can do this, we got this right, that
hopeful excitement.
But think about it, if you wereto move, you don't take
everything with you, right, youdon't take those things that
(25:07):
don't represent who you're nowready to become.
And what I found was there'sthis one spot as people leave
stage three and enter into stagefour.
If your friends weren't therefor you, you've outgrown them.
You're done the lame supportgroup.
You're done.
That betrayer who's notchanging.
You're done.
That therapist who's keepingyou stuck.
You're done.
And people, they say to me allthe time Dr Debbie, I've had
these people in my life for solong.
Is it me?
Yes, you're undergoing atransformation.
If they don't rise, they don'tcome.
Anyway, when you settle intothis space, you make it sort of
(25:30):
mentally home.
You move into the fifth mostbeautiful place, and this is
healing, rebirth and a newworldview.
The body starts to healSelf-love, self-care, eating
well, exercise.
Now is the time.
We couldn't do that earlier.
We have new boundaries, newrules, new everything based on
the road we traveled, and a newworldview based on everything we
(25:50):
see so clearly now and the fourlegs of the table.
In the beginning, it was allabout the physical and the
mental.
By this point, we're grounded.
We're focused on the emotionaland the spiritual too.
Those are the five stages.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
We're focused on the emotional and the spiritual too.
Those are the five stages.
Oh, I love that and I meansomething you mentioned in stage
four.
I saw something online and itpiqued my interest and it had my
brain really start going and soI wanted to ask your thoughts
on it.
Right, and it was a therapist,I believe, or a doctor in
psychology.
That was talking aboutessentially the therapists that
(26:23):
always bring up the same topicof your trauma and every single
time you're talking about yourtrauma, it doesn't create a
sense of healing because you'realways visiting the same spot
versus trying to reframe and getout and get over, essentially,
and create that new life, newversion of you with the new
table.
Do you agree with that?
(26:43):
What are your thoughts on that?
Speaker 1 (26:45):
Yeah, it's so funny because we have our
certification program fordoctors, coaches, healers,
therapists, so that theyunderstand the five stages.
And it's so funny because thetherapists have the hardest time
with the certification, becausethe whole idea is I don't care
if you move that personincrementally or in a bigger way
they are moving towards thenext stage.
(27:06):
every single time they'resitting down with you and the
therapist well-meaning, theywant to have that person feel
heard, validated, understood.
That's really important.
But if the only thing they'redoing is feeling heard,
validated, understood, it'sseriously.
It's like crazy glue for stagethree because now they think
they're receiving so muchbenefit from getting it off
(27:28):
their chest.
But if you check into how youfeel after that, you know what
did you get.
I remember sitting down with oneof our members and we have a
group call with me every otherweek in our community and he
said you know, I just can't stopthinking about this.
And I said you know, do youhave a calculator?
Get out a calculator.
(27:48):
So he takes out his phonecalculator on his phone.
And I said let's do some math.
Math has no place in betrayal,except for a place like this.
And he said okay, I go.
When was your betrayal?
And he said 40 years ago.
I said 40.
Okay, how many times a day doyou think about your betrayal?
And he's like I don't know,between five and 10.
So, okay, let's go with seven,seven, how long do you think
(28:08):
about it when you think about it?
I don't know.
10, 15 minutes, all right, andplug that in.
So we did the math, whatever.
That turned into something likeoh.
And then I asked him.
I said okay, anyway.
I said let's do that.
It turned into five years.
So I said okay.
So look at this.
Nothing has happened in thatfive years.
(28:32):
It's like you took yourself,put yourself in a cage for five
years.
Was there any one time that youcame out of it with a nugget of
insight, a new awareness, a newperspective?
No, so you've essentially spentfive years of your life doing
nothing but making yourself sick, staying stuck.
Do you see what's going onright here?
Sometimes we need the hammer tobed.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
And it's crazy when you put it into a different
perspective, like that, right,because you think, oh, it's only
five minutes of my day.
But when you compound it andshow what that is over the last
40 years, right, it's crazybecause at 40 years, so you had
35 years that you were actuallyliving and five years were just
dwelling, right, and that's likethe part where, too, where I
(29:17):
think that you know, let's say,someone cuts you off in traffic,
right, and the instant took,you know.
Let's say, someone cuts you offin traffic, right and the
instant took, you know, fiveseconds or even a millisecond,
but then you let it affect, youknow, the next five hours of
your day thinking about theperson that cut you off in
traffic, right, and it's likeyou got to let it go or else
everything else.
You're wasting precious timejust thinking about something
(29:39):
that happened.
You can't have any change overit.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
You know, and it's so much more than that too,
because now you're floodingyourself with stress-induced
hormones and chemicals, you'recreating aging, weight gain,
illness and disease.
What you feed grows.
So now you're looking for moreconfirming evidence to support
this idea of I don't matter,people don't treat me well or
(30:05):
whatever, and your mind's likeoh, I didn't realize you wanted
this going.
Okay, fine, we'll look forconfirming evidence for you.
And we create this whole lifewhere it starts out as just a
thought or something, and whatwe, the energy and the emotion
we put behind it, creates ourwhole life.
If it starts out is just athought or something, and what
we, the energy and the emotionwe put behind it, creates our
whole life.
If you're not sure what youbelieve, take a look at your
life.
Your life is a 100%representation of every belief
(30:29):
you hold.
All your beliefs got you righthere, so if you want something
else, it's going to take a verydifferent belief system to get
you there.
Speaker 2 (30:37):
Oh, 100%.
I don't disagree with that oneword out of any of that.
What's one thing if someone isstuck in that third stage, what
is one thing that they can startdoing today to start getting
into stage four and five?
Speaker 1 (30:54):
Yeah, one of the things is we don't even realize
we're numbing ourselves and it'shelpful if you know, because
then it's the first step tochange it.
So actually there are thesefour questions I invite
everybody to write down.
That's my way of saying.
Write these down.
Am I numbing, avoidingdistracting?
If so, how?
Like?
Call yourself on it.
Do you go into the kitchen?
(31:14):
You're not the least bit hungry.
There you are in the fridge,right.
Do you go into a room?
You turn the TV on because youjust want to drown out the sound
of your own thoughts?
Call yourself on it.
The second question this is ahard one.
What am I pretending not to see, right?
Am I pretending not to see?
I hate my job.
Am I pretending not to see thathealth issue that needs my
(31:34):
attention?
Am I pretending not to see?
My relationship is in trouble.
Call yourself on it.
The third question what's lifegoing to look like in five to 10
years if I keep this going?
Play it out the same way you'rehandling it right now.
Look down the road five to 10years what does that health
issue look like?
What does the job look like?
What does the relationship looklike?
And the fourth question whatcan life look like in five to 10
(31:57):
years if I change now?
Right, I'm not saying it's easy.
Transformation begins when youtell yourself the truth.
Speaker 2 (32:04):
And only you know if you're, if you're telling
yourself the truth or if you'relying to yourself.
Speaker 1 (32:08):
Say it 100% yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:10):
So so I mean and I love that because that's one of
the things that like, the two ofthose questions that I tell
people with even just goalsetting, right, you know people
are scared to, you know, takeaction and go towards their.
You know, take action towardstheir goal and really make that
uncomfortable step.
But you have to think about it.
What would this look like if Idon't accomplish this goal?
(32:31):
Or what would this look like ifI did accomplish this goal?
You know what would my lifelook like, what would my
family's life look like, and soforth.
So I love that those samequestions pertain to the
betrayal and overcoming it,because it is so true, you have
to reframe it and you have togive yourself the basic option
one and option two.
You know what they both looklike.
What do you really?
Speaker 1 (32:53):
want.
I love that you brought that up, because this is what I see too
.
People don't want to getuncomfortable.
So, they stay within thefamiliar known.
But all the changes you wantare outside of that familiar
known.
So you know, you know peoplelike well, but, but I'm doing so
much If you're notuncomfortable.
No, you're not.
No, you're not saying, I'vebeen saying in my 33 years of
(33:15):
business.
It really holds true foreverything and it's hard now,
easy later, easy now, hard later.
Take your pick.
It's going to be one of thosetwo.
When it comes to healing frombetrayal, it is nothing less
than hard now, easy later.
But people say, but I've beenmiserable all these years.
Yeah, but you haven't done thedeep, transformative mindset
(33:35):
work of changing the way youthink, to change your life.
Like, for example, after youcrash and burn and life has
blown open, you take all theparts you love and you leave
behind everything that no longerserves right.
And that means when a thoughtcomes in your head, you
reevaluate Do I want to takethis one with me?
You know, am I just being tooeasy?
(33:59):
Am I giving in?
Am I not standing true to myboundaries?
Whatever, if the answer is like, this doesn't belong, you don't
take it with you and you aredeliberately and intentionally
creating a version of you thatdidn't exist before.
That's the hard now stuff I'mtalking about.
But unless you're willing to dothat, yeah, it's going to stink
, but it's only stinking becauseit's more of the same.
Speaker 2 (34:20):
Definitely.
And I almost want to even add adifferent aspect to what you're
saying as well, Cause I believethe same thing hard now, easy
later, easy now, hard later.
But you're you, right nowyou're hard.
You're still there's two, twohearts living in this betrayal.
You know, mindset right thatyou're, you're still there's two
, two hearts living in thisbetrayal.
You know, mindset right thatyou're.
You're at that's hard,overcoming it and going the path
(34:45):
and trying to get it'suncomfortable and it's also hard
.
So you have to choose whichhard you want.
It's easy.
This hard is maybe easier, butit's still.
It's going to be a lot longerof a hard life than suffer a
little bit more right now.
Get uncomfortable to make, youknow, to come out easier on the
other end, Right.
So I, I love that.
Speaker 1 (35:03):
And you have such a better story on the other side.
Like, think about it.
I had a powerful story.
Everybody I really trustedbetrayed me and if I told you
that, you'd give me a lot ofsympathy.
The story I have now that we'rehelping thousands of people
heal from betrayal all the books, all the TEDx talks, a national
holiday this story is so muchbetter.
So you get to choose and Ididn't do anything anybody else
(35:26):
couldn't do.
I was just like the thought ofstaying stuck.
It wasn't an option.
I've trained my mind that thefeeling of what if I can't live
with.
I'd rather do something andfail at it miserably than wonder
what could have been.
Speaker 2 (35:45):
No, a hundred percent .
So I do like to ask one finalquestion.
Right and I know I didn't givethis question to you ahead of
time because I want the firstthing that comes to mind Right,
but this is your legacy wall,right, and on the Dr Debbie
Silver legacy wall.
It's not a tombstone, right?
It is a quote or a message thatyou would leave for the up and
(36:07):
coming generations that you'velearned along your life's
journey, and the message can beshort or long.
But what would your message be?
Speaker 1 (36:14):
Don't stop.
That's it.
That's it, don't stop.
If you have an idea, it'sbecause it's yours.
Don't stop Period.
Speaker 2 (36:27):
I love it.
Sometimes the short ones arethe best ones, because it
applies to so many things.
You want to become more fit?
Don't stop.
You want to get over thisbetrayal?
Don't stop.
It's so true and that's whatpeople don't realize is
sometimes it's not this earthshattering philosophical meaning
(36:48):
or definition, it's like.
It's plain and simple.
Just trust the process anddon't stop.
Speaker 1 (36:52):
And here's the thing you will have everybody telling
you that's so crazy.
What are you doing?
You're nuts.
People told me I was crazygoing back for a PhD at 50,
right, I mean.
But look, it changed my lifeand the lives of so many other
people.
So you will, the more you speakand share your ideas, be very
careful who you share it with.
Right, all the naysayers willbe calling you crazy.
(37:12):
But if it's in, if it comesinto your mind and your heart,
it's because it's yours to do.
Don't stop.
Speaker 2 (37:20):
I love that.
Where can people connect withyou?
Speaker 1 (37:24):
Everything is at the PBT as in post betrayal
transformation, the PBTinstitutecom.
Speaker 2 (37:30):
Awesome.
Well, guys, that will be in theshow notes.
That will also be.
If you're watching on YouTube,that'll be on the video
description.
Make sure you guys go checkthat out.
There is a free quiz on there.
You can take that.
But I just want to say, Dr W,again, thank you so much for
taking the time out of your dayand talk about something that I
know resonates with so manypeople.
Speaker 1 (37:52):
Thank you so much.
Thoughts fencing the game.
Life, mindset calls the shotsGot my mind on the prize.
I can't be distracted.
I stay on my grind, no time tobe slackin'.
I hustle harder.
I go against the current Cause.
I know my mind is rich to becollected.
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