July 28, 2025 • 41 mins
Dr. William Attaway shares his transformative journey from attending his first leadership conference at age 15 to becoming an executive coach who helps high-performing leaders across six continents avoid burnout. He reveals how true leadership creates ripples that extend far beyond the leader, impacting families, teams, clients, and communities.
• Leadership begins with mindset—90% of success or failure in leadership happens between your ears
• Servant leadership is the only true form of leadership—focusing on those you serve rather than yourself
• Great leaders are pushed into leadership positions rather than seeking titles for status
• A teachable spirit is the one non-negotiable trait of catalytic leadership
• If team members can perform a task at 80% of your capability, you should delegate it
• Leaders should delegate not just tasks but authority and decision-making power
• Clear-minded focus, calm control, and confidence are the three stages to becoming a high-performing leader
• Burnout happens when leaders fail to delegate and place unrealistic expectations on themselves and their teams
• Information alone never leads to transformation—information plus execution creates transformation
• You get to choose how you respond to circumstances and the legacy you want to leave
Connect with Dr. William Attaway on LinkedIn or visit catalyticleadership.net to learn more about his coaching programs and join his free Facebook group.
Thanks for listening & being part of the Mindset Cafe Community.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Yeah, it's Mindset Cafe.
We all about that mindset.
Gotta stay focused.
Now go settle for the last.
It's all in your head how youthink you manifest.
So get ready to rise, cause weabout to be the best.
Gotta switch it up.
Gotta break the old habits.
Get your mind right.
Turn your dreams into habits.
No negative vibes, onlypositive thoughts.
(00:20):
What is up, guys?
Welcome to another episode ofthe Mindset Cafe podcast.
It's your boyvin, and today wehave a special guest.
We have Dr William Attaway.
He is a bestselling author, anexecutive coach speaker and the
founder of the CatalystCatalytic Leadership podcast and
program, and I'm lucky enoughto be on his podcast coming up
(00:43):
soon too, so we're going to beable to run it back.
So make sure you guys checkthat episode out when his does
drop as well.
But with nearly 30 years ofhands-on experience in
leadership, dr William hascoached hundreds of
high-performing agency owners,executives, entrepreneurs across
six continents, which isamazing and would definitely
(01:05):
dive into some of that stuff.
But with being a leader, weknow that there's a lot of
things that kind of come with itright.
There's a lot of stress, a lotof things that start to come
with those things.
So you know, dr William hasreally focused on, you know,
helping those people not burnout, not, you know, getting in
this state of confusion orstagnation, because that does
(01:25):
happen as a business owner and,honestly, just in life, right,
so, without further ado, youknow, dr William, thank you so
much for taking the time out ofyour day.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
Devin, thanks so much for having me.
Man, it's an honor to be on theshow.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
I'm excited.
So I mean let's rewind and talkabout you know your bring up,
you know your childhood to you,know where you are today.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
Like what was that path?
Like you know, I grew up inoutside Birmingham, alabama and
a typical childhood in a lot ofways, but there were always the
challenges and the obstacles.
You know my parents separatedand then ultimately got divorced
, you know, when I was ateenager, and that creates
instability, that createschallenges around the family
(02:09):
dynamic, and anybody who's beenin that environment knows what
I'm talking about.
It was around that same seasonthat I had a teacher who saw
something in me that I did notsee in myself, and at 15 years
old he invited me to attend myfirst leadership conference.
I had no real interest in thesubject.
I thought, well, I'll go checkit out.
(02:30):
And I went and I listened and Iwas hooked by the power of
leadership and the impact that agreat leader can make and the
danger of not leading well andthe ripples of what that can
cause.
And now, for nearly 40 years Ihave been a student of
leadership and for 30 now apractitioner of it, working with
(02:53):
teams myself, leadingorganizations, leading teams,
companies, and then coachingother leaders, helping them to
lead effectively.
To understand that it allbegins between your ears.
It begins with your mindset.
That's 90% of your success oryour failure in leadership 100%,
(03:15):
you know, and so I want to.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
I want to dive into something you just said too,
because I think it is soimportant.
And the reason I think it's soimportant is because everyone
idolizes being the leader.
Right, you know being the CEO,being the, you know the top
person, you know the teamcaptain, whatever the case may
be, but, like you said, a greatleader can have a huge impact
(03:39):
and can do amazing things, butalso a bad leader could also
have a huge impact, and do youknow crazy things.
So what?
What is that difference?
When you notice, I mean, whenyou were at that conference, or
what you've learned throughoutyour years of studying
leadership, what is thatseparation, and can you dive
into that subject a little bitmore of the deviation of the two
?
Speaker 2 (04:01):
I think about it in terms of of water.
You know, you think about alake and you think about it in
terms of water.
You think about a lake and youthink about taking a rock and
not chunk the rock into themiddle of that lake.
What's going to happen?
It's going to ripple.
The water is going to respondexactly proportionate to the
velocity of my throw and thesize of the rock and those
(04:22):
ripples are going to move andthey're going to stretch and
they're going to touch thingsthat are far away from that rock
, that the rock did not touch.
That's leadership.
The ripples of leadershipstretch and move far beyond the
actual leader.
This is why I have chosen towork with and to pour into and
invest in leaders, Because whenyou impact a leader and you help
(04:46):
them move from, in some cases,mediocrity or worse to great
leadership, to excellence,you're not just affecting one
person, because the ripples goso far and they touch so many
other people their immediatefamily, their team, the rest of
the company, their clients,every client they're ever going
to serve, every company they'reever going to work for all from
(05:08):
impacting that one leader.
That's the power of leadership.
That can be for good or it canbe not.
A lot of leaders lead forselfish reasons.
They lead because they want tobuild themselves up, build their
brand, build their kingdom, ifyou will.
It's all about them and theripples from that stretch just
(05:29):
as far.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
So what makes a good leader and what makes a bad
leader?
Speaker 2 (05:35):
I believe great leadership starts with a
servant's heart.
I believe servant leadership isleadership.
I'm not sure you can callanything other than servant
leadership leadership.
Honestly, I heard PatrickLencioni say this years ago.
He said we talk about servantleadership like there's really
any other kind.
I think you have to use adifferent word.
(05:57):
I think servant leadership isfocused on the people that we
are serving.
We get to serve as a leader.
We get to pour into and impactother people.
We get to help them grow andachieve their goals in the
pursuit of the goals of thecompany or the team.
That's what you need to do as aleader.
Your job is no longer to be theindividual contributor.
(06:17):
Your job is not to get thingsdone.
Your job is to get things donethrough other people, and the
way you do that best is byseeing how can I help you, how
can I pour into you in such away to maximize your impact.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
So what makes a bad leader?
Speaker 2 (06:36):
One that's all about themselves, one that is more
concerned with their headlinesand their highlight reel than
anyone else on the team, theirheadlines and their highlight
reel than anyone else on theteam Someone?
Speaker 1 (06:51):
who is fine if they win, even if that means
everybody else doesn't.
I think that that's huge,because I mean the way I kind of
view it too is like, like yousaid, the servant leader, right,
I mean that's how you, that'show a great leader is and should
be.
But also that I mean that's howa great leader is and should be
.
But also I mean those kind ofleaders don't necessarily call
themselves leaders right Out thegate, like they're the ones
(07:14):
that kind of get pushed to beteam captain, right, and
obviously if you open a business, you are the leader by default.
But you got to realize that myjob, even with my gym, my
franchise, like my main job, ishow can I help you?
Like, so my team comes, theypresent a problem, my, my job is
to solve the problem, that'sall and all it is.
(07:36):
And that's where people alsodon't realize they see that the
title, they see the leadership,all those kinds of things.
They're like oh, that's I wantto be that.
And it's like you also got torealize that it comes with a
very heavy weight and that isthe stress, the, the worry of
burnout, you know the all thoseother things, because when
(07:56):
things go wrong, a great leaderrealizes it's their fault.
That's right, right.
When things go, when things goright, they realize it's the
team doing well, that's exactlyit, right, that's exactly it.
You know and that's that's thebiggest thing for me is like I
learned.
I mean, I've always thoughtthat but never really understood
(08:18):
or been able to explain ituntil I read I think it was
Jocko Willings the dichotomy ofleadership, and it's so true,
and I think that any leader thatleads from the back, that's not
a leader.
You're a dictator, right, andit's like no one wants to work
for that.
Everyone remembers that oneboss that they had, that they're
like I'll never be that personRight, so don't don't be that
(08:40):
person Right.
So I mean what?
What really inspired you fromthat conference?
Cause obviously that sounded,or that you know that seminar
cause I mean that sounded likeit.
It kind of set a pivot in your,your journey, or whatever your
journey could have been.
What was that light bulb atthat conference for you?
Speaker 2 (08:58):
I think it was.
It was, it was truly acatalytic moment in in my life,
because it was at that momentthat I realized the power of an
individual to impact far beyondthemselves.
You know, you think about.
It was actually at Valley Forge.
Pennsylvania is where theconference was.
So you think about whathappened at Valley Forge.
(09:19):
You think about what GeorgeWashington accomplished there.
Right, you look at that, andwhen they came to Valley Forge,
they were not coming off of avictory.
They were not coming off of.
You know, hey, things areriding high, we've got all the
resources we need, we're hittingevery KPI and objective.
None of that, everything wasgoing south.
(09:41):
How did he lead?
In circumstances not of hischoosing?
How did he lead in moments ofcrisis?
And and I think it was in inthat context, in that setting,
that that really became real tome for the first time that I
understood that leadership isnot about the title, it's not
about the perks, it's not aboutthe trappings.
(10:03):
It's about that.
It's about leading in adversity, leading through crisis,
knowing that there's anotherside to it.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
No, definitely not a lie.
I don't know what the value offorges, but as you started
explaining it, I was like, oh, Ithink I think I know where
we're going with this.
But as you started explainingit, I was like, oh, I think I
know where we're going with this.
But, honestly, everything thatyou said though it does resonate
with things that I'veexperienced and I know other
(10:35):
leaders have Because when thingsare especially, we'll say, with
business, when things are goingrough, it's like you can start
to shift the blame.
And the one thing in my companyis I don't accept excuses.
Right, the reason I don'taccept excuses is because that
means you haven't takenresponsibility for the mistake.
I accept mistakes all day long,but you need to own your
(10:56):
mistake so that we can learnfrom it.
Right, because, believe me, Imake probably the most amount of
mistakes.
Right, and it's like you madethe mistake.
Now what, right?
You can't just sit and have asay.
Now, you need to find thesolution.
What is the solution?
Right?
So, even for our team, thoughwhat you're saying, it kind of
made me think about even how wehave a hierarchy, essentially
(11:19):
like owner manager, assistantmanager, trainers, so forth.
But I also teach them.
And even when I'm on the floor,no one knows I'm the owner,
unless obviously directly askedor one of my trainers tells
someone that I'm the owner.
Otherwise, when someone comesin on their first day, I say you
know, hey, we got two, uh twotrainers on the floor.
It's myself and so and so forthe day, like so they associate
(11:42):
with me just being one of thetrainers, right?
Because otherwise, immediatelythe members come to whoever the
higher person is, versus valuingthe other trainer's advice and
so forth.
So that is a requirement fromour staff as well to do so.
So I think that's one of thethings too.
Like you're here to serve themembers, you're here to serve
(12:04):
the team, it's like no one needsto know you're the manager.
What does that do for anyone,right?
Speaker 2 (12:09):
Well, yes, and that humility that you're exhibiting
there, I think, is key toservant leadership.
You can't be focused onsomebody else if you're focused
on yourself, if you want to makesure everybody knows who you
are and everybody can come andthey can, they can, they can,
you know, pay the appropriatehomage, you know, oh yeah, oh
wow, you know.
Kiss the ring, so to speak.
If you're more concerned withthat, then you can't be focused
(12:33):
on your team in the way thatyou're describing, so that they
will win.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
Yeah no, exactly.
So I mean, and that's, andthat's the whole thing too, is
like I mean you, you kind of seewho the leaders are when people
start going to them, to for the, you know, for the, for the
like, if one of my trainers iscoming up to me asking questions
and going back to a member togive it, like they, by by proxy,
kind of see that I'm the leaderon the floor.
(12:59):
They don't necessarily knowmaybe I'm the owner, but they
know that there is some sort ofsystem at you know, behind the
scenes, uh, but what is?
Can you explain what thecatalytic you know leadership is
?
How was that created?
Speaker 2 (13:16):
it actually comes out of a little bit of my story a
little further on.
Uh, when I went to college, Iwent as a pre-pharmacy major.
I thought I had worked in apharmacy my senior year of high
school and thought this is agreat way to invest in other
people, you know, to serveothers.
And so I went as a pre-pharmacymajor.
I got to my second year and hitorganic chemistry.
(13:36):
Organic chemistry is designedas the washout point right when
they're going to wash out thepeople who don't need to be in
this program.
And it works.
It washed me right out.
I hated it.
I was like this is not what Iwant to spend the rest of my
life doing.
But in my brief chemistrystudies, I discovered the power
of what's called a catalyst.
A catalyst is something thatyou introduce into a mixture in
(14:00):
order to incite or to acceleratesignificant change or action.
And as I thought about that, Ihad been a student of leadership
for a number of years at thatpoint and I thought, wow, every
great leader that I have everstudied or met or learned from
would resonate with that.
They're all about significantchange or action and they're all
(14:23):
about inciting that.
What does it look like forleadership to be catalytic, and
that's what I've beenresearching and studying and
writing about and speaking aboutfor about 30 years now.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
So how does someone start to?
I guess not acquire, but startto yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:49):
It starts with your mindset and this is a choice
that you get to make.
The one non-negotiable essay ofcatalytic leadership is a
teachable spirit.
It's one non-negotiable.
Yeah, you can have everythingelse I talk about and not have
that, and you're not going to becatalytic.
A teachable spirit is a choice.
It is a decision that I makeevery day, devin, I decide every
(15:12):
morning I want to be the mostteachable person in every room I
walk into today.
I want to be the most teachableperson in every meeting I'm in.
I want to listen more than Ispeak.
I want to learn from the peoplearound me.
Now, sometimes you might learnwhat not to do.
That's okay, that could bevaluable, but I want to maintain
(15:32):
that teachable spirit, thatteachable posture, in every
environment I'm going to go into.
Am I perfect at it?
No, but that's the goal, that'sthe center of the bullseye.
Starting with that, thatdeliberate choice, is where
catalytic leadership begins,because that humility and that
(15:52):
determination every day, thatthat's going to be the posture
of my mindset.
That is where you begin as alearner, and if you walk in as a
learner, you'll be surprisedhow much you learn and how much
influence you have with theother people in the room.
Speaker 1 (16:10):
Oh, definitely.
I mean, I think that you haveto have that sense of humility
to realize you don't know whatyou don't know, right.
And you don't need to like to bea leader or to be a business
owner, like you don't have toknow all of the answers, right,
but you do have to know that ifyou don't know the answer, you
(16:31):
either have to find it outyourself or you need to go ask
someone that has alreadyovercame that, right.
And so that's where I thinkthat you know a coach or an
advisor or a mentor does reallyplay into that, because I mean,
even when we launched ourfranchise, you know, opening up
a business, you know, wasalready a venture that you know
kind of had to learn as we went.
(16:52):
But then franchising was awhole new space.
So I hired a franchise you knowmentor that had launched his
own franchise.
Right, I didn't care about youknow certifications and you know
it's like I could read a booktoo.
I want someone that is doing itor has done it.
And so it just so happened thatmy mentor had launched one in
(17:13):
the fitness space as well in theeighties and nineties, but I
was like he grew to 400locations.
Obviously, he's going to beable to help me condense my
timeline to success and I'mwilling to let him know I don't
know these things right and andgo into it with a learning
mindset, right.
So I think that is a hugeaspect of it.
Now what I will like, I want togive your opinion on this,
(17:35):
because I think that there'sthis information overload, but
implementation under load rightand and so and so how how does
that really play into?
Like being a Cadillac, you know, catalytic sorry, cadillac,
catalytic leader, you know, thatis able to have these
exponential growths.
You know, because we can learnnew things and learn the
(17:58):
dichotomy of leadership, andlearn all these things, but if
you're not implementing themright, you're not really going
to have that growth 100%.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
One of the key traits of a catalytic leader is that
you have a bias for action.
Okay, information is great.
I'm constantly taking ininformation.
Right, I love to read.
Obviously, you can see, I loveto read, I love to listen to
podcasts.
I'm constantly learning andgrowing through conversations
that I have, conferences,whatnot?
Information I'm constantlytaking in, but information alone
(18:31):
never leads to transformation.
Information plus executionleads to transformation, and
that's what you're describing.
And so the key thing that Iwork with clients on is okay,
your problem most often is notyou lack information.
Your problem most often isyou're not doing anything with
it.
It's time to stand up and getmoving.
(18:52):
It's time to execute, and thisis this is a key trait If you
want to be catalytic as a leader.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
Definitely.
I mean, I remember it's funnylike I had a client that showed
up when I was testing the modelout at the park.
Before you know, we opened ourfacility and she said you know,
well, isn't it enough?
I showed up and I was like, andsometimes I can, I can come
back with some, some stuffpretty quick, and it just I,
right away.
I was like you could go to thelibrary and not read, you know.
(19:22):
And then she was just like I,right away.
I was like you could go to thelibrary and not read, you know.
And then she was just like, ohman, and so she started doing
her workout.
But it's same thing, it's likeyou could.
I could give you the answers,like for the franchisees, I can
give you the blueprint, I can doeverything, send you all
information, but if you don'tpick up the phone, make the call
or, you know, open the doors,the business isn't going to be
successful.
That's exactly right.
Speaker 2 (19:43):
You got to move, you got to take action.
Speaker 1 (19:47):
And that's the scariest piece, because
everything like, let's say, allmy successes I'm telling you
exactly how to do it.
For you it's a theory, right,it's not like it's my reality,
but it's your theory right, anduntil you take action on it, it
will always be a theory.
(20:07):
You need to test it out, youneed to try it, you need to do
it for it to become a reality.
Otherwise it will always justbe this, this thought process or
this system you know.
So I think that is the hugepiece that you know that I love
that you kind of, you know,described in that where has your
coaching kind of led you?
I know, you know you've goneacross continents and stuff like
(20:28):
that.
Like how, what was that journeylike?
Speaker 2 (20:31):
You know it's.
It's interesting because thethe the first question that that
I think I had at the beginningwas I understand how to lead in
different contexts, and I'veworked with leaders, you know,
with leaders from GovCon spaceto educational space, from
nonprofits to Fortune 500companies, but that's in the
States.
Is that going to work outsideof North America?
(20:55):
And so, as I began to work withclients around the world, what
I discovered is that leadershipprinciples are leadership
principles.
It does not matter the culture.
It does not matter the culture,it does not matter the context.
The principles are transferable.
Now, you've got tocontextualize them a little bit,
to be sure, but the principleshold.
(21:15):
And there's not one of thecatalytic leadership principles
that I talk about in my lastbook.
That doesn't hold, no matterwhere the person is.
And I've tested this, I'vetried to, I've tried to find the
holes in it.
But the reality is, thoseprinciples are, they work on all
six continents.
Speaker 1 (21:35):
I mean at the end of the day, I think that you know,
people are people, right, that'sexactly right.
I mean, there are obviouslydifferent cultures and so so
forth, but at the same timepeople are people meaning that
leadership is leadership.
Right, that's right.
So I, and that's that's where Ithink those, that those
concepts and and everythingreally hold, because, at the end
, just like sales is sales, youknow, customer service is
(21:56):
customer service, like it's aprinciple in that, in a skill in
that nature.
So I think that's it.
It does make a ton of sense.
I think my, my worry about, youknow, going different across
different continents would bethat cultural factor.
But again, when you kind offactored that in, maybe a little
bit if needed, but the end ofthe day you're talking about
something that doesn't reallynecessarily have a cultural tie,
(22:18):
right.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
Right, it's important to to know illustrations that
fit your audience when you'respeaking.
It's important not to assumethat everybody is like you, and
I think that's one danger thathappens when we go other places.
We just make that assumption.
Well careful, it's good to knowwho you're talking to so you
(22:40):
can contextualize andcommunicate to them, not to who
you think they should be.
Speaker 1 (22:47):
Yeah, and I'll say I want to add on to what you said.
Like you know, not to make surethat they're not, you don't
think that they're like you likeeven in the States, and like
there's two, two aspects to this.
Like I've been, you know, to afew different States with, you
know, traveling for business andso forth, being from Los
Angeles, it is very fast-paced,Everything is fast-paced.
(23:10):
I remember I went to Montana,beautiful, love the state.
I remember we flew in and itwas me and one of the other guys
from this mastermind.
We're at this restaurant andthe waitress is it's almost like
it was out of a movie, liketalking with each table but like
not just like hey, do you needanything?
It was like full onconversations and I was like man
(23:35):
, like I was like we got to go,like you know, and realizing,
like the lifestyle, everythingwas just a little bit different
and it was like wow, like it wasalmost like a, not a cultural
shock, but kind of a culturalshock in you know, in the same
regard.
But then also being a businessowner, like realizing that your
team isn't you, like you can'thold them to the same standards
that you hold yourself, becauseit is your baby.
(23:56):
It is your business.
They're never going to work ashard as you, going to work as
hard as you.
So you have to also take thatwith a grain of salt and realize
that they're trying to striveto be as good as you, but in
your eyes they will never be.
They'll never do it as good asyou could do it.
Right On certain things.
Your idea as being a leadershould be to hire people that
(24:18):
can do it better than you.
I mean, that's my goal is tohire people that can do it
better than me, cause you knowthat's that's what scales a
business but also takes a wholeton of work off of your plate,
right, um?
So what I want to dive into offthat, like taking work off
plate, like how and I guess thiscan be a kind of two prong
question you know, going intoburnout, but also delegation,
(24:41):
that with leadership how dothose things tie into leadership
growth?
Because that can be a stressfulthing being a leader or being a
business owner and having to beforced into that leadership
role since you're the owner, thedelegation of work, as well as
burnout.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
I want to reinforce something you said a second ago
that I think is so important,devin, and that is that nobody
else thinks like you do aboutthe business, and I think, as
business owners, we have to bevery clear about the
expectations that we communicateto and express with our team.
If we set the expectation, well, you're not as committed as me,
(25:23):
you're not doing all the thingsthat well.
They're not you.
They don't own the business.
This isn't their baby, as yousay, and I think that's
important and where I see oftena fast path to burnout is when
the expectations are unrealisticof our team members, and it
creates anxiety, it createsstress, it creates frustration,
(25:45):
because frustration always comesfrom missed expectations.
I expected this and youdelivered this and that gap.
Okay, hold on here.
Are those the rightexpectations or do you need to
right size them?
That is one way to slow theroll toward burnout, because
you're slowing your anxiety,you're lowering the stress.
(26:08):
That's one piece of that.
Another piece of it isdelegation.
Nobody else is going to do itlike you do it.
I hear that have the experience.
They don't have the investment,they don't have the background
that you do.
You're the one with theexpertise enough to start the
business.
(26:28):
No, they don't have all that.
What's your expectation?
A mentor of mine said and I lovethis he said if they can do it
80% as well as you do it, youneed to hand it off.
First time I heard that I waslike 80%, that's like a C.
I don't want C-level workaround here.
Come on, this is A.
(26:49):
We do A-level work, come on.
But you know what?
He's spot on right.
The reality is, if we do notdelegate it to them, if they can
do it 80% as well as we can,we're not giving them an
opportunity to grow like we had80% as well as we can.
We're not giving them anopportunity to grow like we had.
None of us started at A-pluslevel work either.
We had to grow into it.
And if we want to be a trueleader, a catalytic leader, we
(27:11):
have to delegate so that theywill have the opportunity to
grow just like we had.
And oh, by the way, it createsmargin for you so that you're
not overwhelmed and overloaded.
When you have margin, you havethe capacity for creativity.
Creativity lives in margin.
If you feel like, oh, I don'treally have time to be creative,
I don't really have, I'm justnot creative.
(27:32):
It's because you're notallowing margin for it.
By delegating, you createmargin, and creativity is how
leaders solve problems at a highperformance level.
Speaker 1 (27:44):
And yeah, and like to your 80, 80% thing too.
I have heard like a similarthing, and the way I like to
explain it as well is like, ifyou have 100% right and let's
say that, let's say there's 10tasks, or we'll, you know, yeah,
we'll say there's 10 tasks Ifyou have, if you're the one
doing all 10 tasks, well, youcan only give 10% to each of
(28:04):
those tasks.
If someone else, if you're theone doing all 10 tasks, well,
you can only give 10% to each ofthose tasks.
If someone else can give 80% tothat task in your eyes and 80%
to the other, you know, in eight, uh 10 other people, 80% to all
the other ones, will you have800% versus your a hundred
percent.
That's right.
Right and it's like at scale,the numbers start to make more
sense, Right?
So it's like now you have aplus plus work when in reality
(28:28):
you know you would have beengetting F work all the way
around, right?
So that's the thing I thinkwith leaders is like you get
burnt out easily because you'rewearing too many hats for too
long and don't get me wrong, Imean you will have to wear a
majority of the hats if you'restarting off your business,
because you can't train someoneor hire someone to do something
If you don't know how to do ityourself to it.
(28:50):
For for certain things right,you know obviously accounting
and stuff like that you can hiresomeone straight out the gate.
But if you don't have a systemin place, well, you can't expect
someone to come in and justcreate your system for you.
They're going to be like thisperson doesn't know his own
business, you know.
So that's where you know.
You realize the thing.
Like look at your calendar timeblock, do whatever you need to
(29:12):
do to essentially delegate,because then it frees up your
space, like you said, to do thethings that actually bring in
money.
Do the things that actuallymove the needle for the entire
company.
Do the things that you canactually create the things that
you can create, so that you'regiving resources and tools to
your team.
That's good, right?
So I mean, I think that's thatis huge, and I love that you
(29:33):
kind of talk on that.
Why do you think that mostbusiness owners do get burnt out
?
Speaker 2 (29:38):
Because they don't delegate.
Simply, it's because they don'twhen are at the center of the
spider web, where every decisionhas to come to you, where every
decision comes across your desk, because you haven't delegated,
you haven't built a team thatcan handle making decisions.
If that's where you are in yourbusiness, congratulations.
You are on the road to burnoutand you will get there because
(30:02):
that's where that road goes.
When you learn to delegate, youlearn to delegate not just
tasks, not just responsibility,but you learn to delegate
authority.
I want my team to makedecisions.
I don't want them to just betask driven.
Here's what I mean when theycome to me and they ask me a
question hey, what do you thinkabout this?
(30:23):
You know what my number oneresponse is.
Speaker 1 (30:27):
They can say it with me.
Speaker 2 (30:28):
What do you think?
What do you think If I wasn'there?
What would you do?
Because I want them to learn tomake the decisions.
I want them to learn to makethe decisions.
I want them to learn to think.
Now, 80, 90% of the time, theirresponse is going to be spot on
and I'm going to say, yeah,absolutely Perfect, Go for it.
Maybe 10% of the time they'regoing to come back with an
(30:52):
answer.
That's just absolutelyludicrous.
And that's when, as a leader,you've got to control your face.
You've got to control it andnot give them that look like
what?
No, you can't do that, You'vejust got to hold it.
You've got to control it andyou've got to say, hmm, okay,
well, I see how you could thinkthat.
Let me tell you how we do ithere.
(31:14):
Let me tell you how we do ithere.
What am I doing?
I'm coaching them and teachingthem how I think, so that the
next time they don't have to askthe question.
Speaker 1 (31:26):
Now they know no, I like that.
I mean, even that's somethingkind of we implement with our
team as well.
As you know, when they bring mea question or something like
that, often I I started offdoing the you know what do you
think?
And then it came down to likehaving to say that so many times
it's like, guys, when you bringme a problem or something, I
(31:48):
want you to also bring me whatyour idea of the solution would
be yes, right, right or wrong.
Right, I just want to see whereyou go with it.
Right and even if it is justway, way outside in a different
ballpark of you know thoughtprocess, like, okay, explain,
how did you like, why, why doyou think that?
I want to, I want to understandyou know what you went with
(32:08):
that and and then from thereI'll kind of coach them on what
I would do it or what I want todo.
But I also want to know howthey came to that conclusion,
because it has happened whereI'm like man, that's actually
not something I thought about,and then you know and I'm like
that actually makes sense and Iwas like I would have done, I
would have done this, and thisis the reason why.
But I do like the way you'rethinking about it.
Speaker 2 (32:30):
So let's yeah, let's try it, run it you know, and
that's the teachable spirit I'mtalking about Evan right there.
That's the spirit that says hey, you know what the best idea
wins?
If it's mine, if it's yours,whoever it is, best idea wins.
That's the humility as leaderswe have to bring to the table.
Speaker 1 (32:50):
And letting your team bring those ideas to the table
and, if they are good ideas,letting them execute right.
It has more buy-in 100%, 100%.
Speaker 2 (33:00):
because they were part of solving it.
They were part of crafting thesolution.
They're always going to havemore buy-in to a solution or an
idea or a project.
They were part of crafting.
Speaker 1 (33:09):
Exactly, and that's the thing that a lot of business
owners I feel like struggle onis because they think that their
ideas need to be the the onesthat move the company.
It's like realize that you'rebuilding a team for a reason and
if your team, if your team hascontributed to any part of it,
like they're going to have morebuy-in, they're going to take
more action, they're going totry harder for it to actually
(33:31):
work right and if, even if, evenif it's not working, they'll
bring you another version of it.
Hey, I think if we switch thisup, it might work still.
It's like try it out, let's see.
Right, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (33:44):
Absolutely.
If your idea always wins, asthe leader, you're not listening
enough 100% and I think thatthat's adding to your stress.
Speaker 1 (33:57):
That's exactly right.
Like because you feel like youneed to have all the ideas and
all the solutions, when, inreality, someone else is like
hey, I have the solution too, Icould do this, perfect, I don't
need to think about it now.
Like that's one less stress,one less problem, I need to
solve perfect.
High five, go run it right,that's awesome.
Uh, it was something thatyou've talked about, or I've
(34:18):
heard you talk about.
Is you know the clear-mindedfocus, the calm, control and the
confidence?
Can you break that down alittle bit?
Speaker 2 (34:24):
Sure, if you, if you really want to move as a leader
into high performance, these arethe three stages that I think
get you there.
So often people, when they cometo me, they're, they're
struggling, they're stuck, theyfeel like they've they've grown
a business or they've gotten toa certain level in their career,
(34:45):
but they're just spinning theirwheels.
And it's most often becausethey don't have what I call
clear-minded focus, thatunderstanding not only of where
you are but of where you want togo.
Most people can clearly defineone of those two points, but
they struggle with the other one.
It's different for differentpeople.
Building the bridge from hereto there is not the hard part.
(35:11):
The hard part is gettingclear-minded and focusing on
what each one of those points is.
Once we have that, then youbegin to move into emotional
regulation.
You begin to move into how do Iestablish calm control in my
leadership?
I talked about the rock in thepond earlier.
Right, you throw that rock atthe water.
The water is going to react tothe rock exactly in proportion
to the size of the rock and thevelocity of the throw.
(35:32):
The water does not overreact,the water does not underreact.
The water exactlyproportionately reacts and then,
after the event, it resettles.
This is the goal for us.
That's leading from a place ofcalm control.
When something happens or aconversation is had, or somebody
(35:52):
does something, how do youreact?
Are you overreacting, or areyou stuffing it all inside and
underreacting?
Neither of those is healthy.
Learning how to appropriately,proportionately react and then
return to the place of calmcontrol, that's a skill and it's
what I think is important toreally be catalytic as a leader
(36:14):
as you do those first two thingsand you get the focus that
comes with clarity, becauseclarity is kindness.
Brene Brown is right Clarity iskindness to yourself as well as
to other people.
You have clarity.
You've established this placeof calm control where you're
able to react appropriately.
This gives you confidence,because confidence is born from
(36:37):
past experience.
As you are building this newversion of you, you then can
step out with confidence,knowing I know where I'm at, I
know where I'm going and I knowhow I want to be on the journey.
This gives you the confidencethat you need as a leader that
can overcome things likeimposter syndrome 100%.
Speaker 1 (37:01):
People like to ask you know, how do I get over you
know the imposter syndrome.
I'm like what do you feel animposter about?
Right, and that will you knowbe that because you do own a
business, right, Like you havean LLCc, right you.
So you are an entrepreneur.
Do you feel an imposter thatyou're an entrepreneur, like
it's on paper you are.
So what, what is?
(37:23):
Where's the imposter syndromecoming so you don't feel like
you're at a fortune 500 levelyet that, so now only fortune
500 levels are entrepreneurs.
That you gotta realize thatsometimes the imposter syndrome
is, is self um, self-limitingand you put that on yourself.
No one else, everyone elsealready associates you as that
(37:43):
right.
People already associate you asthe leader, as an entrepreneur,
as whatever it is.
But you don't feel like you'rethat because you're comparing
yourself to other people furtheralong that journey.
That's right.
Speaker 2 (37:57):
You know it's the expectations you place on
yourself Whenever I hearsomebody doing that and they set
those unrealistic bars.
Well, you know, I'm just notreal.
Yet I ask the same three-wordquestion every time Devin,
according to who?
According to who?
You're holding yourself to astandard?
(38:18):
Who set that standard?
Where did you get that?
You picked it up somewhere.
It's not healthy, right?
Let's look at data.
Let's look at reality as it is,not as you have convinced
yourself it should be I agree100.
Speaker 1 (38:36):
I mean honestly everything that we talked about
like there is no question, thereis, this is an opinion, this is
guys.
This is how it is, and so I'minterested to hear this final
question that I like to ask it'sthe legacy board, right?
So, on your legacy board, whatwould be the one lasting message
(38:57):
that you leave for the up andcoming generations that you
learned along your life'sjourney?
Speaker 2 (39:05):
I think it would be.
It's pretty simple.
You get to choose.
When it comes to thecircumstances around us, the
things that happen in our lives.
We don't always get to choosethose, but when it comes to how
we respond, how we react and howwe move through those things,
you get to choose.
(39:26):
Don't complain about what youchose.
You get to choose the life youwant to live.
You get to choose the legacyyou want to leave.
You get to choose.
Don't give away your agency andmove into a victim mindset,
because when you do that, youhurt everybody around you.
Speaker 1 (39:48):
It's very true.
I love that.
I love that.
Where can people connect withyou at?
Speaker 2 (39:58):
connect with you at.
You can connect with me onLinkedIn I'm pretty active over
there, just look for William CAttaway and you can also find me
at our website,catalyticleadershipnet.
That's the hub of everything wedo, from the podcast that I
host, the coaching that I do,the Facebook group that we host.
It's free.
You can join that and learnmore about leadership and how to
become more catalytic, whereveryou are.
Speaker 1 (40:17):
That is awesome, guys , that it will be in the show
notes.
Make sure you guys go, check,check them out.
If you guys have a friend, ifyou guys have a family member or
your significant other is aleader or a business owner, you
know, send this episode to themso that it can help them become
a catalytic leader and reallyhave that exponential growth
that can, you know, scale them,scale their team and have that
(40:40):
positive ripple you know thatthey're instilling so that they
become a greater leader thanthey currently are.
But with that being said, guys,I appreciate you guys.
Make sure you guys tune in onthe next one.
Thank you so much, dr Phil, forcoming on today and honestly
just dropping amazing, amazingknowledge on leadership, but
also the understanding thatthere is great leadership, there
(41:03):
is bad leadership and you canbecome a catalytic leader if
you're just willing to have alearning mindset.
Speaker 2 (41:11):
Devin, thanks for having me.
It's been an honor to be here,man.
Yeah, it's Mindset Cafe.
We all about that mindset.
Gotta stay focused.
Now go settle for the last.
It's all in your head how youthink you manifest.
So get ready to rise, cause weabout to be the best.
Gotta switch it up.
Gotta break the old habits.
Get your mind right.
Turn your dreams into habits.
No negative vibes, onlypositive thoughts.
(00:20):
What is up, guys?
Welcome to another episode ofthe Mindset Cafe podcast.
It's your boyvin, and today wehave a special guest.
We have Dr William Attaway.
He is a bestselling author, anexecutive coach speaker and the
founder of the CatalystCatalytic Leadership podcast and
program, and I'm lucky enoughto be on his podcast coming up
(00:43):
soon too, so we're going to beable to run it back.
So make sure you guys checkthat episode out when his does
drop as well.
But with nearly 30 years ofhands-on experience in
leadership, dr William hascoached hundreds of
high-performing agency owners,executives, entrepreneurs across
six continents, which isamazing and would definitely
(01:05):
dive into some of that stuff.
But with being a leader, weknow that there's a lot of
things that kind of come with itright.
There's a lot of stress, a lotof things that start to come
with those things.
So you know, dr William hasreally focused on, you know,
helping those people not burnout, not, you know, getting in
this state of confusion orstagnation, because that does
(01:25):
happen as a business owner and,honestly, just in life, right,
so, without further ado, youknow, dr William, thank you so
much for taking the time out ofyour day.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
Devin, thanks so much for having me.
Man, it's an honor to be on theshow.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
I'm excited.
So I mean let's rewind and talkabout you know your bring up,
you know your childhood to you,know where you are today.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
Like what was that path?
Like you know, I grew up inoutside Birmingham, alabama and
a typical childhood in a lot ofways, but there were always the
challenges and the obstacles.
You know my parents separatedand then ultimately got divorced
, you know, when I was ateenager, and that creates
instability, that createschallenges around the family
(02:09):
dynamic, and anybody who's beenin that environment knows what
I'm talking about.
It was around that same seasonthat I had a teacher who saw
something in me that I did notsee in myself, and at 15 years
old he invited me to attend myfirst leadership conference.
I had no real interest in thesubject.
I thought, well, I'll go checkit out.
(02:30):
And I went and I listened and Iwas hooked by the power of
leadership and the impact that agreat leader can make and the
danger of not leading well andthe ripples of what that can
cause.
And now, for nearly 40 years Ihave been a student of
leadership and for 30 now apractitioner of it, working with
(02:53):
teams myself, leadingorganizations, leading teams,
companies, and then coachingother leaders, helping them to
lead effectively.
To understand that it allbegins between your ears.
It begins with your mindset.
That's 90% of your success oryour failure in leadership 100%,
(03:15):
you know, and so I want to.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
I want to dive into something you just said too,
because I think it is soimportant.
And the reason I think it's soimportant is because everyone
idolizes being the leader.
Right, you know being the CEO,being the, you know the top
person, you know the teamcaptain, whatever the case may
be, but, like you said, a greatleader can have a huge impact
(03:39):
and can do amazing things, butalso a bad leader could also
have a huge impact, and do youknow crazy things.
So what?
What is that difference?
When you notice, I mean, whenyou were at that conference, or
what you've learned throughoutyour years of studying
leadership, what is thatseparation, and can you dive
into that subject a little bitmore of the deviation of the two
?
Speaker 2 (04:01):
I think about it in terms of of water.
You know, you think about alake and you think about it in
terms of water.
You think about a lake and youthink about taking a rock and
not chunk the rock into themiddle of that lake.
What's going to happen?
It's going to ripple.
The water is going to respondexactly proportionate to the
velocity of my throw and thesize of the rock and those
(04:22):
ripples are going to move andthey're going to stretch and
they're going to touch thingsthat are far away from that rock
, that the rock did not touch.
That's leadership.
The ripples of leadershipstretch and move far beyond the
actual leader.
This is why I have chosen towork with and to pour into and
invest in leaders, Because whenyou impact a leader and you help
(04:46):
them move from, in some cases,mediocrity or worse to great
leadership, to excellence,you're not just affecting one
person, because the ripples goso far and they touch so many
other people their immediatefamily, their team, the rest of
the company, their clients,every client they're ever going
to serve, every company they'reever going to work for all from
(05:08):
impacting that one leader.
That's the power of leadership.
That can be for good or it canbe not.
A lot of leaders lead forselfish reasons.
They lead because they want tobuild themselves up, build their
brand, build their kingdom, ifyou will.
It's all about them and theripples from that stretch just
(05:29):
as far.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
So what makes a good leader and what makes a bad
leader?
Speaker 2 (05:35):
I believe great leadership starts with a
servant's heart.
I believe servant leadership isleadership.
I'm not sure you can callanything other than servant
leadership leadership.
Honestly, I heard PatrickLencioni say this years ago.
He said we talk about servantleadership like there's really
any other kind.
I think you have to use adifferent word.
(05:57):
I think servant leadership isfocused on the people that we
are serving.
We get to serve as a leader.
We get to pour into and impactother people.
We get to help them grow andachieve their goals in the
pursuit of the goals of thecompany or the team.
That's what you need to do as aleader.
Your job is no longer to be theindividual contributor.
(06:17):
Your job is not to get thingsdone.
Your job is to get things donethrough other people, and the
way you do that best is byseeing how can I help you, how
can I pour into you in such away to maximize your impact.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
So what makes a bad leader?
Speaker 2 (06:36):
One that's all about themselves, one that is more
concerned with their headlinesand their highlight reel than
anyone else on the team, theirheadlines and their highlight
reel than anyone else on theteam Someone?
Speaker 1 (06:51):
who is fine if they win, even if that means
everybody else doesn't.
I think that that's huge,because I mean the way I kind of
view it too is like, like yousaid, the servant leader, right,
I mean that's how you, that'show a great leader is and should
be.
But also that I mean that's howa great leader is and should be
.
But also I mean those kind ofleaders don't necessarily call
themselves leaders right Out thegate, like they're the ones
(07:14):
that kind of get pushed to beteam captain, right, and
obviously if you open a business, you are the leader by default.
But you got to realize that myjob, even with my gym, my
franchise, like my main job, ishow can I help you?
Like, so my team comes, theypresent a problem, my, my job is
to solve the problem, that'sall and all it is.
(07:36):
And that's where people alsodon't realize they see that the
title, they see the leadership,all those kinds of things.
They're like oh, that's I wantto be that.
And it's like you also got torealize that it comes with a
very heavy weight and that isthe stress, the, the worry of
burnout, you know the all thoseother things, because when
(07:56):
things go wrong, a great leaderrealizes it's their fault.
That's right, right.
When things go, when things goright, they realize it's the
team doing well, that's exactlyit, right, that's exactly it.
You know and that's that's thebiggest thing for me is like I
learned.
I mean, I've always thoughtthat but never really understood
(08:18):
or been able to explain ituntil I read I think it was
Jocko Willings the dichotomy ofleadership, and it's so true,
and I think that any leader thatleads from the back, that's not
a leader.
You're a dictator, right, andit's like no one wants to work
for that.
Everyone remembers that oneboss that they had, that they're
like I'll never be that personRight, so don't don't be that
(08:40):
person Right.
So I mean what?
What really inspired you fromthat conference?
Cause obviously that sounded,or that you know that seminar
cause I mean that sounded likeit.
It kind of set a pivot in your,your journey, or whatever your
journey could have been.
What was that light bulb atthat conference for you?
Speaker 2 (08:58):
I think it was.
It was, it was truly acatalytic moment in in my life,
because it was at that momentthat I realized the power of an
individual to impact far beyondthemselves.
You know, you think about.
It was actually at Valley Forge.
Pennsylvania is where theconference was.
So you think about whathappened at Valley Forge.
(09:19):
You think about what GeorgeWashington accomplished there.
Right, you look at that, andwhen they came to Valley Forge,
they were not coming off of avictory.
They were not coming off of.
You know, hey, things areriding high, we've got all the
resources we need, we're hittingevery KPI and objective.
None of that, everything wasgoing south.
(09:41):
How did he lead?
In circumstances not of hischoosing?
How did he lead in moments ofcrisis?
And and I think it was in inthat context, in that setting,
that that really became real tome for the first time that I
understood that leadership isnot about the title, it's not
about the perks, it's not aboutthe trappings.
(10:03):
It's about that.
It's about leading in adversity, leading through crisis,
knowing that there's anotherside to it.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
No, definitely not a lie.
I don't know what the value offorges, but as you started
explaining it, I was like, oh, Ithink I think I know where
we're going with this.
But as you started explainingit, I was like, oh, I think I
know where we're going with this.
But, honestly, everything thatyou said though it does resonate
with things that I'veexperienced and I know other
(10:35):
leaders have Because when thingsare especially, we'll say, with
business, when things are goingrough, it's like you can start
to shift the blame.
And the one thing in my companyis I don't accept excuses.
Right, the reason I don'taccept excuses is because that
means you haven't takenresponsibility for the mistake.
I accept mistakes all day long,but you need to own your
(10:56):
mistake so that we can learnfrom it.
Right, because, believe me, Imake probably the most amount of
mistakes.
Right, and it's like you madethe mistake.
Now what, right?
You can't just sit and have asay.
Now, you need to find thesolution.
What is the solution?
Right?
So, even for our team, thoughwhat you're saying, it kind of
made me think about even how wehave a hierarchy, essentially
(11:19):
like owner manager, assistantmanager, trainers, so forth.
But I also teach them.
And even when I'm on the floor,no one knows I'm the owner,
unless obviously directly askedor one of my trainers tells
someone that I'm the owner.
Otherwise, when someone comesin on their first day, I say you
know, hey, we got two, uh twotrainers on the floor.
It's myself and so and so forthe day, like so they associate
(11:42):
with me just being one of thetrainers, right?
Because otherwise, immediatelythe members come to whoever the
higher person is, versus valuingthe other trainer's advice and
so forth.
So that is a requirement fromour staff as well to do so.
So I think that's one of thethings too.
Like you're here to serve themembers, you're here to serve
(12:04):
the team, it's like no one needsto know you're the manager.
What does that do for anyone,right?
Speaker 2 (12:09):
Well, yes, and that humility that you're exhibiting
there, I think, is key toservant leadership.
You can't be focused onsomebody else if you're focused
on yourself, if you want to makesure everybody knows who you
are and everybody can come andthey can, they can, they can,
you know, pay the appropriatehomage, you know, oh yeah, oh
wow, you know.
Kiss the ring, so to speak.
If you're more concerned withthat, then you can't be focused
(12:33):
on your team in the way thatyou're describing, so that they
will win.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
Yeah no, exactly.
So I mean, and that's, andthat's the whole thing too, is
like I mean you, you kind of seewho the leaders are when people
start going to them, to for the, you know, for the, for the
like, if one of my trainers iscoming up to me asking questions
and going back to a member togive it, like they, by by proxy,
kind of see that I'm the leaderon the floor.
(12:59):
They don't necessarily knowmaybe I'm the owner, but they
know that there is some sort ofsystem at you know, behind the
scenes, uh, but what is?
Can you explain what thecatalytic you know leadership is
?
How was that created?
Speaker 2 (13:16):
it actually comes out of a little bit of my story a
little further on.
Uh, when I went to college, Iwent as a pre-pharmacy major.
I thought I had worked in apharmacy my senior year of high
school and thought this is agreat way to invest in other
people, you know, to serveothers.
And so I went as a pre-pharmacymajor.
I got to my second year and hitorganic chemistry.
(13:36):
Organic chemistry is designedas the washout point right when
they're going to wash out thepeople who don't need to be in
this program.
And it works.
It washed me right out.
I hated it.
I was like this is not what Iwant to spend the rest of my
life doing.
But in my brief chemistrystudies, I discovered the power
of what's called a catalyst.
A catalyst is something thatyou introduce into a mixture in
(14:00):
order to incite or to acceleratesignificant change or action.
And as I thought about that, Ihad been a student of leadership
for a number of years at thatpoint and I thought, wow, every
great leader that I have everstudied or met or learned from
would resonate with that.
They're all about significantchange or action and they're all
(14:23):
about inciting that.
What does it look like forleadership to be catalytic, and
that's what I've beenresearching and studying and
writing about and speaking aboutfor about 30 years now.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
So how does someone start to?
I guess not acquire, but startto yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:49):
It starts with your mindset and this is a choice
that you get to make.
The one non-negotiable essay ofcatalytic leadership is a
teachable spirit.
It's one non-negotiable.
Yeah, you can have everythingelse I talk about and not have
that, and you're not going to becatalytic.
A teachable spirit is a choice.
It is a decision that I makeevery day, devin, I decide every
(15:12):
morning I want to be the mostteachable person in every room I
walk into today.
I want to be the most teachableperson in every meeting I'm in.
I want to listen more than Ispeak.
I want to learn from the peoplearound me.
Now, sometimes you might learnwhat not to do.
That's okay, that could bevaluable, but I want to maintain
(15:32):
that teachable spirit, thatteachable posture, in every
environment I'm going to go into.
Am I perfect at it?
No, but that's the goal, that'sthe center of the bullseye.
Starting with that, thatdeliberate choice, is where
catalytic leadership begins,because that humility and that
(15:52):
determination every day, thatthat's going to be the posture
of my mindset.
That is where you begin as alearner, and if you walk in as a
learner, you'll be surprisedhow much you learn and how much
influence you have with theother people in the room.
Speaker 1 (16:10):
Oh, definitely.
I mean, I think that you haveto have that sense of humility
to realize you don't know whatyou don't know, right.
And you don't need to like to bea leader or to be a business
owner, like you don't have toknow all of the answers, right,
but you do have to know that ifyou don't know the answer, you
(16:31):
either have to find it outyourself or you need to go ask
someone that has alreadyovercame that, right.
And so that's where I thinkthat you know a coach or an
advisor or a mentor does reallyplay into that, because I mean,
even when we launched ourfranchise, you know, opening up
a business, you know, wasalready a venture that you know
kind of had to learn as we went.
(16:52):
But then franchising was awhole new space.
So I hired a franchise you knowmentor that had launched his
own franchise.
Right, I didn't care about youknow certifications and you know
it's like I could read a booktoo.
I want someone that is doing itor has done it.
And so it just so happened thatmy mentor had launched one in
(17:13):
the fitness space as well in theeighties and nineties, but I
was like he grew to 400locations.
Obviously, he's going to beable to help me condense my
timeline to success and I'mwilling to let him know I don't
know these things right and andgo into it with a learning
mindset, right.
So I think that is a hugeaspect of it.
Now what I will like, I want togive your opinion on this,
(17:35):
because I think that there'sthis information overload, but
implementation under load rightand and so and so how how does
that really play into?
Like being a Cadillac, you know, catalytic sorry, cadillac,
catalytic leader, you know, thatis able to have these
exponential growths.
You know, because we can learnnew things and learn the
(17:58):
dichotomy of leadership, andlearn all these things, but if
you're not implementing themright, you're not really going
to have that growth 100%.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
One of the key traits of a catalytic leader is that
you have a bias for action.
Okay, information is great.
I'm constantly taking ininformation.
Right, I love to read.
Obviously, you can see, I loveto read, I love to listen to
podcasts.
I'm constantly learning andgrowing through conversations
that I have, conferences,whatnot?
Information I'm constantlytaking in, but information alone
(18:31):
never leads to transformation.
Information plus executionleads to transformation, and
that's what you're describing.
And so the key thing that Iwork with clients on is okay,
your problem most often is notyou lack information.
Your problem most often isyou're not doing anything with
it.
It's time to stand up and getmoving.
(18:52):
It's time to execute, and thisis this is a key trait If you
want to be catalytic as a leader.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
Definitely.
I mean, I remember it's funnylike I had a client that showed
up when I was testing the modelout at the park.
Before you know, we opened ourfacility and she said you know,
well, isn't it enough?
I showed up and I was like, andsometimes I can, I can come
back with some, some stuffpretty quick, and it just I,
right away.
I was like you could go to thelibrary and not read, you know.
(19:22):
And then she was just like I,right away.
I was like you could go to thelibrary and not read, you know.
And then she was just like, ohman, and so she started doing
her workout.
But it's same thing, it's likeyou could.
I could give you the answers,like for the franchisees, I can
give you the blueprint, I can doeverything, send you all
information, but if you don'tpick up the phone, make the call
or, you know, open the doors,the business isn't going to be
successful.
That's exactly right.
Speaker 2 (19:43):
You got to move, you got to take action.
Speaker 1 (19:47):
And that's the scariest piece, because
everything like, let's say, allmy successes I'm telling you
exactly how to do it.
For you it's a theory, right,it's not like it's my reality,
but it's your theory right, anduntil you take action on it, it
will always be a theory.
(20:07):
You need to test it out, youneed to try it, you need to do
it for it to become a reality.
Otherwise it will always justbe this, this thought process or
this system you know.
So I think that is the hugepiece that you know that I love
that you kind of, you know,described in that where has your
coaching kind of led you?
I know, you know you've goneacross continents and stuff like
(20:28):
that.
Like how, what was that journeylike?
Speaker 2 (20:31):
You know it's.
It's interesting because thethe the first question that that
I think I had at the beginningwas I understand how to lead in
different contexts, and I'veworked with leaders, you know,
with leaders from GovCon spaceto educational space, from
nonprofits to Fortune 500companies, but that's in the
States.
Is that going to work outsideof North America?
(20:55):
And so, as I began to work withclients around the world, what
I discovered is that leadershipprinciples are leadership
principles.
It does not matter the culture.
It does not matter the culture,it does not matter the context.
The principles are transferable.
Now, you've got tocontextualize them a little bit,
to be sure, but the principleshold.
(21:15):
And there's not one of thecatalytic leadership principles
that I talk about in my lastbook.
That doesn't hold, no matterwhere the person is.
And I've tested this, I'vetried to, I've tried to find the
holes in it.
But the reality is, thoseprinciples are, they work on all
six continents.
Speaker 1 (21:35):
I mean at the end of the day, I think that you know,
people are people, right, that'sexactly right.
I mean, there are obviouslydifferent cultures and so so
forth, but at the same timepeople are people meaning that
leadership is leadership.
Right, that's right.
So I, and that's that's where Ithink those, that those
concepts and and everythingreally hold, because, at the end
, just like sales is sales, youknow, customer service is
(21:56):
customer service, like it's aprinciple in that, in a skill in
that nature.
So I think that's it.
It does make a ton of sense.
I think my, my worry about, youknow, going different across
different continents would bethat cultural factor.
But again, when you kind offactored that in, maybe a little
bit if needed, but the end ofthe day you're talking about
something that doesn't reallynecessarily have a cultural tie,
(22:18):
right.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
Right, it's important to to know illustrations that
fit your audience when you'respeaking.
It's important not to assumethat everybody is like you, and
I think that's one danger thathappens when we go other places.
We just make that assumption.
Well careful, it's good to knowwho you're talking to so you
(22:40):
can contextualize andcommunicate to them, not to who
you think they should be.
Speaker 1 (22:47):
Yeah, and I'll say I want to add on to what you said.
Like you know, not to make surethat they're not, you don't
think that they're like you likeeven in the States, and like
there's two, two aspects to this.
Like I've been, you know, to afew different States with, you
know, traveling for business andso forth, being from Los
Angeles, it is very fast-paced,Everything is fast-paced.
(23:10):
I remember I went to Montana,beautiful, love the state.
I remember we flew in and itwas me and one of the other guys
from this mastermind.
We're at this restaurant andthe waitress is it's almost like
it was out of a movie, liketalking with each table but like
not just like hey, do you needanything?
It was like full onconversations and I was like man
(23:35):
, like I was like we got to go,like you know, and realizing,
like the lifestyle, everythingwas just a little bit different
and it was like wow, like it wasalmost like a, not a cultural
shock, but kind of a culturalshock in you know, in the same
regard.
But then also being a businessowner, like realizing that your
team isn't you, like you can'thold them to the same standards
that you hold yourself, becauseit is your baby.
(23:56):
It is your business.
They're never going to work ashard as you, going to work as
hard as you.
So you have to also take thatwith a grain of salt and realize
that they're trying to striveto be as good as you, but in
your eyes they will never be.
They'll never do it as good asyou could do it.
Right On certain things.
Your idea as being a leadershould be to hire people that
(24:18):
can do it better than you.
I mean, that's my goal is tohire people that can do it
better than me, cause you knowthat's that's what scales a
business but also takes a wholeton of work off of your plate,
right, um?
So what I want to dive into offthat, like taking work off
plate, like how and I guess thiscan be a kind of two prong
question you know, going intoburnout, but also delegation,
(24:41):
that with leadership how dothose things tie into leadership
growth?
Because that can be a stressfulthing being a leader or being a
business owner and having to beforced into that leadership
role since you're the owner, thedelegation of work, as well as
burnout.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
I want to reinforce something you said a second ago
that I think is so important,devin, and that is that nobody
else thinks like you do aboutthe business, and I think, as
business owners, we have to bevery clear about the
expectations that we communicateto and express with our team.
If we set the expectation, well, you're not as committed as me,
(25:23):
you're not doing all the thingsthat well.
They're not you.
They don't own the business.
This isn't their baby, as yousay, and I think that's
important and where I see oftena fast path to burnout is when
the expectations are unrealisticof our team members, and it
creates anxiety, it createsstress, it creates frustration,
(25:45):
because frustration always comesfrom missed expectations.
I expected this and youdelivered this and that gap.
Okay, hold on here.
Are those the rightexpectations or do you need to
right size them?
That is one way to slow theroll toward burnout, because
you're slowing your anxiety,you're lowering the stress.
(26:08):
That's one piece of that.
Another piece of it isdelegation.
Nobody else is going to do itlike you do it.
I hear that have the experience.
They don't have the investment,they don't have the background
that you do.
You're the one with theexpertise enough to start the
business.
(26:28):
No, they don't have all that.
What's your expectation?
A mentor of mine said and I lovethis he said if they can do it
80% as well as you do it, youneed to hand it off.
First time I heard that I waslike 80%, that's like a C.
I don't want C-level workaround here.
Come on, this is A.
(26:49):
We do A-level work, come on.
But you know what?
He's spot on right.
The reality is, if we do notdelegate it to them, if they can
do it 80% as well as we can,we're not giving them an
opportunity to grow like we had80% as well as we can.
We're not giving them anopportunity to grow like we had.
None of us started at A-pluslevel work either.
We had to grow into it.
And if we want to be a trueleader, a catalytic leader, we
(27:11):
have to delegate so that theywill have the opportunity to
grow just like we had.
And oh, by the way, it createsmargin for you so that you're
not overwhelmed and overloaded.
When you have margin, you havethe capacity for creativity.
Creativity lives in margin.
If you feel like, oh, I don'treally have time to be creative,
I don't really have, I'm justnot creative.
(27:32):
It's because you're notallowing margin for it.
By delegating, you createmargin, and creativity is how
leaders solve problems at a highperformance level.
Speaker 1 (27:44):
And yeah, and like to your 80, 80% thing too.
I have heard like a similarthing, and the way I like to
explain it as well is like, ifyou have 100% right and let's
say that, let's say there's 10tasks, or we'll, you know, yeah,
we'll say there's 10 tasks Ifyou have, if you're the one
doing all 10 tasks, well, youcan only give 10% to each of
(28:04):
those tasks.
If someone else, if you're theone doing all 10 tasks, well,
you can only give 10% to each ofthose tasks.
If someone else can give 80% tothat task in your eyes and 80%
to the other, you know, in eight, uh 10 other people, 80% to all
the other ones, will you have800% versus your a hundred
percent.
That's right.
Right and it's like at scale,the numbers start to make more
sense, Right?
So it's like now you have aplus plus work when in reality
(28:28):
you know you would have beengetting F work all the way
around, right?
So that's the thing I thinkwith leaders is like you get
burnt out easily because you'rewearing too many hats for too
long and don't get me wrong, Imean you will have to wear a
majority of the hats if you'restarting off your business,
because you can't train someoneor hire someone to do something
If you don't know how to do ityourself to it.
(28:50):
For for certain things right,you know obviously accounting
and stuff like that you can hiresomeone straight out the gate.
But if you don't have a systemin place, well, you can't expect
someone to come in and justcreate your system for you.
They're going to be like thisperson doesn't know his own
business, you know.
So that's where you know.
You realize the thing.
Like look at your calendar timeblock, do whatever you need to
(29:12):
do to essentially delegate,because then it frees up your
space, like you said, to do thethings that actually bring in
money.
Do the things that actuallymove the needle for the entire
company.
Do the things that you canactually create the things that
you can create, so that you'regiving resources and tools to
your team.
That's good, right?
So I mean, I think that's thatis huge, and I love that you
(29:33):
kind of talk on that.
Why do you think that mostbusiness owners do get burnt out
?
Speaker 2 (29:38):
Because they don't delegate.
Simply, it's because they don'twhen are at the center of the
spider web, where every decisionhas to come to you, where every
decision comes across your desk, because you haven't delegated,
you haven't built a team thatcan handle making decisions.
If that's where you are in yourbusiness, congratulations.
You are on the road to burnoutand you will get there because
(30:02):
that's where that road goes.
When you learn to delegate, youlearn to delegate not just
tasks, not just responsibility,but you learn to delegate
authority.
I want my team to makedecisions.
I don't want them to just betask driven.
Here's what I mean when theycome to me and they ask me a
question hey, what do you thinkabout this?
(30:23):
You know what my number oneresponse is.
Speaker 1 (30:27):
They can say it with me.
Speaker 2 (30:28):
What do you think?
What do you think If I wasn'there?
What would you do?
Because I want them to learn tomake the decisions.
I want them to learn to makethe decisions.
I want them to learn to think.
Now, 80, 90% of the time, theirresponse is going to be spot on
and I'm going to say, yeah,absolutely Perfect, Go for it.
Maybe 10% of the time they'regoing to come back with an
(30:52):
answer.
That's just absolutelyludicrous.
And that's when, as a leader,you've got to control your face.
You've got to control it andnot give them that look like
what?
No, you can't do that, You'vejust got to hold it.
You've got to control it andyou've got to say, hmm, okay,
well, I see how you could thinkthat.
Let me tell you how we do ithere.
(31:14):
Let me tell you how we do ithere.
What am I doing?
I'm coaching them and teachingthem how I think, so that the
next time they don't have to askthe question.
Speaker 1 (31:26):
Now they know no, I like that.
I mean, even that's somethingkind of we implement with our
team as well.
As you know, when they bring mea question or something like
that, often I I started offdoing the you know what do you
think?
And then it came down to likehaving to say that so many times
it's like, guys, when you bringme a problem or something, I
(31:48):
want you to also bring me whatyour idea of the solution would
be yes, right, right or wrong.
Right, I just want to see whereyou go with it.
Right and even if it is justway, way outside in a different
ballpark of you know thoughtprocess, like, okay, explain,
how did you like, why, why doyou think that?
I want to, I want to understandyou know what you went with
(32:08):
that and and then from thereI'll kind of coach them on what
I would do it or what I want todo.
But I also want to know howthey came to that conclusion,
because it has happened whereI'm like man, that's actually
not something I thought about,and then you know and I'm like
that actually makes sense and Iwas like I would have done, I
would have done this, and thisis the reason why.
But I do like the way you'rethinking about it.
Speaker 2 (32:30):
So let's yeah, let's try it, run it you know, and
that's the teachable spirit I'mtalking about Evan right there.
That's the spirit that says hey, you know what the best idea
wins?
If it's mine, if it's yours,whoever it is, best idea wins.
That's the humility as leaderswe have to bring to the table.
Speaker 1 (32:50):
And letting your team bring those ideas to the table
and, if they are good ideas,letting them execute right.
It has more buy-in 100%, 100%.
Speaker 2 (33:00):
because they were part of solving it.
They were part of crafting thesolution.
They're always going to havemore buy-in to a solution or an
idea or a project.
They were part of crafting.
Speaker 1 (33:09):
Exactly, and that's the thing that a lot of business
owners I feel like struggle onis because they think that their
ideas need to be the the onesthat move the company.
It's like realize that you'rebuilding a team for a reason and
if your team, if your team hascontributed to any part of it,
like they're going to have morebuy-in, they're going to take
more action, they're going totry harder for it to actually
(33:31):
work right and if, even if, evenif it's not working, they'll
bring you another version of it.
Hey, I think if we switch thisup, it might work still.
It's like try it out, let's see.
Right, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (33:44):
Absolutely.
If your idea always wins, asthe leader, you're not listening
enough 100% and I think thatthat's adding to your stress.
Speaker 1 (33:57):
That's exactly right.
Like because you feel like youneed to have all the ideas and
all the solutions, when, inreality, someone else is like
hey, I have the solution too, Icould do this, perfect, I don't
need to think about it now.
Like that's one less stress,one less problem, I need to
solve perfect.
High five, go run it right,that's awesome.
Uh, it was something thatyou've talked about, or I've
(34:18):
heard you talk about.
Is you know the clear-mindedfocus, the calm, control and the
confidence?
Can you break that down alittle bit?
Speaker 2 (34:24):
Sure, if you, if you really want to move as a leader
into high performance, these arethe three stages that I think
get you there.
So often people, when they cometo me, they're, they're
struggling, they're stuck, theyfeel like they've they've grown
a business or they've gotten toa certain level in their career,
(34:45):
but they're just spinning theirwheels.
And it's most often becausethey don't have what I call
clear-minded focus, thatunderstanding not only of where
you are but of where you want togo.
Most people can clearly defineone of those two points, but
they struggle with the other one.
It's different for differentpeople.
Building the bridge from hereto there is not the hard part.
(35:11):
The hard part is gettingclear-minded and focusing on
what each one of those points is.
Once we have that, then youbegin to move into emotional
regulation.
You begin to move into how do Iestablish calm control in my
leadership?
I talked about the rock in thepond earlier.
Right, you throw that rock atthe water.
The water is going to react tothe rock exactly in proportion
to the size of the rock and thevelocity of the throw.
(35:32):
The water does not overreact,the water does not underreact.
The water exactlyproportionately reacts and then,
after the event, it resettles.
This is the goal for us.
That's leading from a place ofcalm control.
When something happens or aconversation is had, or somebody
(35:52):
does something, how do youreact?
Are you overreacting, or areyou stuffing it all inside and
underreacting?
Neither of those is healthy.
Learning how to appropriately,proportionately react and then
return to the place of calmcontrol, that's a skill and it's
what I think is important toreally be catalytic as a leader
(36:14):
as you do those first two thingsand you get the focus that
comes with clarity, becauseclarity is kindness.
Brene Brown is right Clarity iskindness to yourself as well as
to other people.
You have clarity.
You've established this placeof calm control where you're
able to react appropriately.
This gives you confidence,because confidence is born from
(36:37):
past experience.
As you are building this newversion of you, you then can
step out with confidence,knowing I know where I'm at, I
know where I'm going and I knowhow I want to be on the journey.
This gives you the confidencethat you need as a leader that
can overcome things likeimposter syndrome 100%.
Speaker 1 (37:01):
People like to ask you know, how do I get over you
know the imposter syndrome.
I'm like what do you feel animposter about?
Right, and that will you knowbe that because you do own a
business, right, Like you havean LLCc, right you.
So you are an entrepreneur.
Do you feel an imposter thatyou're an entrepreneur, like
it's on paper you are.
So what, what is?
(37:23):
Where's the imposter syndromecoming so you don't feel like
you're at a fortune 500 levelyet that, so now only fortune
500 levels are entrepreneurs.
That you gotta realize thatsometimes the imposter syndrome
is, is self um, self-limitingand you put that on yourself.
No one else, everyone elsealready associates you as that
(37:43):
right.
People already associate you asthe leader, as an entrepreneur,
as whatever it is.
But you don't feel like you'rethat because you're comparing
yourself to other people furtheralong that journey.
That's right.
Speaker 2 (37:57):
You know it's the expectations you place on
yourself Whenever I hearsomebody doing that and they set
those unrealistic bars.
Well, you know, I'm just notreal.
Yet I ask the same three-wordquestion every time Devin,
according to who?
According to who?
You're holding yourself to astandard?
(38:18):
Who set that standard?
Where did you get that?
You picked it up somewhere.
It's not healthy, right?
Let's look at data.
Let's look at reality as it is,not as you have convinced
yourself it should be I agree100.
Speaker 1 (38:36):
I mean honestly everything that we talked about
like there is no question, thereis, this is an opinion, this is
guys.
This is how it is, and so I'minterested to hear this final
question that I like to ask it'sthe legacy board, right?
So, on your legacy board, whatwould be the one lasting message
(38:57):
that you leave for the up andcoming generations that you
learned along your life'sjourney?
Speaker 2 (39:05):
I think it would be.
It's pretty simple.
You get to choose.
When it comes to thecircumstances around us, the
things that happen in our lives.
We don't always get to choosethose, but when it comes to how
we respond, how we react and howwe move through those things,
you get to choose.
(39:26):
Don't complain about what youchose.
You get to choose the life youwant to live.
You get to choose the legacyyou want to leave.
You get to choose.
Don't give away your agency andmove into a victim mindset,
because when you do that, youhurt everybody around you.
Speaker 1 (39:48):
It's very true.
I love that.
I love that.
Where can people connect withyou at?
Speaker 2 (39:58):
connect with you at.
You can connect with me onLinkedIn I'm pretty active over
there, just look for William CAttaway and you can also find me
at our website,catalyticleadershipnet.
That's the hub of everything wedo, from the podcast that I
host, the coaching that I do,the Facebook group that we host.
It's free.
You can join that and learnmore about leadership and how to
become more catalytic, whereveryou are.
Speaker 1 (40:17):
That is awesome, guys , that it will be in the show
notes.
Make sure you guys go, check,check them out.
If you guys have a friend, ifyou guys have a family member or
your significant other is aleader or a business owner, you
know, send this episode to themso that it can help them become
a catalytic leader and reallyhave that exponential growth
that can, you know, scale them,scale their team and have that
(40:40):
positive ripple you know thatthey're instilling so that they
become a greater leader thanthey currently are.
But with that being said, guys,I appreciate you guys.
Make sure you guys tune in onthe next one.
Thank you so much, dr Phil, forcoming on today and honestly
just dropping amazing, amazingknowledge on leadership, but
also the understanding thatthere is great leadership, there
(41:03):
is bad leadership and you canbecome a catalytic leader if
you're just willing to have alearning mindset.
Speaker 2 (41:11):
Devin, thanks for having me.
It's been an honor to be here,man.
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