August 18, 2025 • 38 mins
Dr. Matt Kutz shares his journey from athletic training to leadership development, introducing his concept of contextual intelligence and how leaders can thrive in complex environments by adapting their approach to each unique situation.
• Athletic trainers work with high-performing individuals who constantly strive for improvement, creating a mindset that translates well to organizational leadership
• Leaders need multiple leadership styles and must learn to diagnose the context to determine which style is appropriate for each situation
• The 3D thinking framework helps leaders consider hindsight (past), insight (present), and foresight (future) when making decisions
• Great leaders understand the difference between excellence and perfectionism—excellence is attainable while perfectionism is paralyzing
• The EPIC framework—Excellence, Perception, Inspiration, Compassion—offers a pathway to overcome mediocrity
• Creating buy-in from team members at appropriate levels multiplies organizational effectiveness
• Leadership maturity involves giving team members decision-making opportunities appropriate to their experience and role
Check out Dr. Matt Kutz's new book "Becoming Epic: A Remedy for Mediocrity" coming out in August, and visit matthewkutz.com for articles and more resources on contextual intelligence.
Thanks for listening & being part of the Mindset Cafe Community.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 2 (00:20):
What is up guys?
Welcome to another episode ofthe Mindset Cafe podcast.
It's your boy, devin, and todaywe got a special guest.
We got Dr Matt Kutz.
He is a Fulbright scholar.
He is an entrepreneur, anathletic trainer, professor and
the creator of the ContextualIntelligence Profile I hope I
didn't butcher that A gamechanging tool that helps leaders
(00:46):
thrive in complexity.
Right and with nearly 30 yearsof experience in leadership and
development, you know Dr Kudzhas trained Fortune 500
companies, universities, globalorganizations and, honestly,
he's taught them all to leadwith clarity and adaptability.
So I'm truly honored to haveyou on today.
Thank you so much for takingthe time out of your day to hop
on clarity and adaptability, soI'm truly honored to have you on
today.
Thank you so much for takingthe time out of your day to hop
(01:07):
on the Mindset Cafe.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
Oh, thanks, devin, I really appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
So I always like to dive in, you know, on your
background, Like what was, youknow, a bird's eye view of your
journey to today.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
Wow yeah, so I don't know.
We call that.
It's a three beer story for alot.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
So you know, my background is athletic training.
So I started just, you know,like every other person and I
was just had to pick a major incollege and I picked athletic
training because it had athleticin the title and I didn't even
know what athletic training wasReally.
I played sports in high schooland college myself so I thought
that sounds kind of cool and itturned out to be a combination
(01:50):
of health care and sports.
So it's basically, you know,athletic trainers are the ones
who do the diagnosis, therehabilitation for athletes when
they get injured.
So absolutely great career,found my people and just found
myself right away in a communityof high performing individuals.
You know, athletes generallywant to be better, do better,
(02:13):
get better, and they want to doit all right now.
So that was kind of the mindsetI was around.
Get injured, you know it wascompletely different working
with them versus working with Ihope it's not too disparaging
but working with the averagepopulation, right, the general
population, who you know reallywere fine with missing a few
(02:36):
days work.
In fact, you know I'm gettingpaid to be on, you know, off
right now.
So I'm really not in a rush toget well, to get better, to
restore strength, whatever,where athletes are the exact
opposite.
We had to actually slow themdown.
Okay, wait, you're not ready togo back and play yet, even
though they mostly wanted to goin, like right now it's like
(02:56):
your leg is hanging off yourbody here, you're not ready to
go back.
Oh no, I tape it up, I can go.
Tape it up, I can go, and um,and so that mindset, I think um,
kind of just appealed to me.
It was part of who I wasanyways, and uh, and I found a
way later in my career totransition that mindset into the
(03:16):
corporate what I call thecorporate athlete and into the
organizational space and usesome of those principles to
develop that kind of mindset oflisten, we can do this and we
can do it better and we can goat it appropriately within a
reasonable amount of time, youknow, and improve, improve our
(03:39):
organization, improve our team,improve our department, whatever
it might be.
So long story and, like I said,it's a three beer story.
But went and then got my PhDseveral years later after
working for a while in Oregonand global leadership, and that
opened up a lot of opportunitiesAgain, I'll spare you all the
boring details but ended upmoving to Rwanda living in
(04:01):
Rwanda as a Fulbright scholar,ended up moving to Rwanda living
in Rwanda as a Fulbrightscholar, teaching orthopedic
assessment over there in aphysical therapy school.
A few years after that I got afaculty appointment in Brisbane,
australia.
I moved my family to the GoldCoast in Australia, worked there
at Griffith University, workingin their health service
(04:22):
administration master's degreeand now I'm back in Ohio
Actually, I Ohio.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
I work in Florida, in Miami and at Florida
International University, and adoctor of athletic training
program now oh wow, I meanthat's awesome and I mean your,
your journey is definitelyinteresting and that's why it
makes it so cool is going toathletic training, and I mean
being a trainer myself andowning a gym and gym franchise
and everything like that likeit's.
(04:48):
It's always cool to meet withlike-minded people.
But what was your, your pivotinto getting a PhD into in like
leadership instead of like insomething in the kinesiology
field?
Speaker 1 (04:59):
yeah, great question, because everyone else in my
space has their PhD in eitherexercise physiology, kinesiology
, something like that, and itwas a very, very difficult
decision.
So I don't want to underscorethat.
But I found myself in thisthree-bear story journey.
We're talking about One of thethings.
I found myself at a smalluniversity down in South Florida
(05:21):
and I was working as theirstrength and conditioning coach.
I'm a CSCS as well and I was acertified strength and
conditioning specialist as wellas an athletic trainer.
So I was working down there inboth capacities and I started
teaching some courses and thedean at the time was there was
like, hey, listen, you're doinga great job teaching and stuff,
but if you really want to getthe salary that you need for
(05:44):
your family at a young family atthe time, you're really going
to need to get a terminal degree, you're going to need to get a
doctoral degree.
And so I just did whateverybody did, okay.
So I started looking atrehabilitation science, exercise
.
My master's degree is inexercise physiology.
So I'm like, hey, exercise physis perfect, I'm going to go
back and exercise phys andsomething and I can't tell you
(06:06):
what it was, devin, but therewas something you know, just in
me.
That was like hold on a second.
You know, let's try to look atthe bigger picture here.
And so I slowed down a littlebit and I started exploring some
other programs and I've alwaysloved leadership, like I said,
high performance.
I've always considered goodleaders, high performers, and I
(06:29):
was like maybe there's somethingthere.
So I just found a program, aPhD program in global leadership
.
It had with a specialization inorganizational and corporate
management.
I'm like you know what?
I might be the only athletictrainer in the world that has
their PhD from a businesscollege, but I think I'm going
to do this instead and see justwhat happens.
(06:51):
And amazing things did happen.
It opened up huge opportunitiesfor me, even within the
discipline of athletic trainingthat I'm still very actively
involved in.
That I'm still very activelyinvolved in.
I'm actually probably the onlyone who specializes in the
(07:11):
organizational performance of anorganization, of an academic
program, of a rehabilitationdepartment, something like that.
So I have a little niche nowand I've written a bunch of
books and textbooks.
So I use my textbooks and allthe curriculum programs because
I'm the only one of the fewprograms Cause I'm the only one,
one of the few, I shouldn't saythe only one one of the few
that writes books on leadershipfor sports medicine
(07:33):
professionals.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
No, that's awesome and I love that because, like, I
mean, I don't have a master's.
I got my bachelor's in in Kinesand if I were to go, you know,
I'd probably get my master's insomething else in kinesiology.
But I always like to kind ofventure and take other classes
and learn other things.
So it's awesome that you werelike I'm not going to go with
(07:57):
the crowd and go with whateveryone else is doing.
This thing I can still apply itto what I'm doing and other
things.
But this is really interestingme over here, right, and he
knows what doors will open.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
Yeah, and that was the real challenge.
That was actually the fun part,because I had to do a lot of
explaining early on of why Iwanted to do this thing in this
space, and it was really only me.
Even my wife didn't see it orrecognize it right at the time.
I was really the only one whocould see the need and the
connection.
(08:31):
And now granted, this was, youknow, 20 plus years ago.
Athletic training is not.
We've been around for about 70years as a profession, so we're
not as old as nursing, physicaltherapy, other of our sister
professions, and so because ofthat, the whole profession was
(08:51):
kind of in this new space.
So it was like we all need toget these degrees in this area.
And I was thinking because Iwas a big fan of actually the
nursing literature at the timewho are light years ahead of
other professions relative toleadership in healthcare, and so
I just, like I said, I'vealways been a huge student of
leadership anyways and I thoughtjust maybe this might be
(09:17):
beneficial somewhere down theroad and someone's going to need
this.
And it turned out to be greatfor me and, like I said, I've
served.
I'm actually the vice presidentfor the World Federation of
Athletic Training and Therapy.
I serve as a bunch that way, soyou really have to have you
know.
I love the title of your, evenyour podcast the Mindset Cafe,
(09:50):
because you're not going to gointo new spaces in any field, in
any industry, unless you havethe proper mindset.
You have to see what otherpeople can't see and don't see.
That goes for your health, itgoes for your decision making,
your relationships, everything,and that's a huge, huge lesson
we could all learn.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
No, definitely.
And it takes a uniqueindividual that's willing to go
against the against stream andessentially figure out the
unknown, Because I mean, that'swhat essentially you're doing.
Is that, okay, you know, withthis new, you know PhD, how can
I make the connections Right?
The field is untapped.
Essentially, yeah, there's, youknow, athletic training, which
(10:34):
most people think.
When they say, oh, yeah, I'm anathletic trainer, they're like,
oh, you train athletes.
It's like, no, that's a wholedifferent degree than just a
personal trainer.
That's a.
That's a level up.
That's a whole different degreethan just a personal trainer.
That's a that's a level up.
Um, but now you're in a fieldwhere it's like, look, you can,
you can take a bird's eye viewand look at a different aspect
of the whole, uh, industry andmake it better.
(10:56):
Right and so.
And also, I mean, let's say, ifyou're right now, if you're in
school and you're, you know,doing your degrees and looking
at your pipeline down, it's likeif you're in school and you're,
you know, doing your degreesand looking at your pipeline
down, it's like if you're doingwhat everyone else is doing and
you're applying for a job,you're going to be one of the
many instead of being one of thefew and being able to pitch it
a different way.
Speaker 1 (11:15):
Yeah, you've got to do something to differentiate
yourself from the crowd, youknow, and that's that's what
leaders do.
I mean, that's the big partabout you know, the really
interesting thing about studyingleaders who make a difference
and the mindset that leadershave, because there is a big
(11:36):
difference between a leader'smindset and a manager's mindset
and this is something I talkabout in a lot of other spaces
as well.
But so many of us get caught upin the manager's mindset you
know I need to manage thesituation.
So many of us get caught up inthe manager's mindset you know I
need to manage the situation.
And leadership is aboutbudgeting and setting agendas
and organizing staff and thosekinds of things.
And, while there's elements oftruth in it, the real leaders
are the ones that get people tomove beyond the limits that
(11:59):
they've set for themselves, andI think that's really, really an
important part.
And to do that it's everythingyou just said You've got to
think differently, you've got toattack it a different way.
You've got to get to the goalthat you want, and maybe a
little bit of an unusual pathway, but you have to be able to see
that pathway and be convincedthat it will work, and to do
(12:22):
that requires you know amanagement of risk.
You know there's this thing thatmany of us, many people, fear
risk.
Shy away from risk and try toavoid risk.
I would be one who says, stopit.
I mean that's crazy.
And I can only tell you what Imean.
That's, that's, that's crazy.
(12:42):
And I can only tell you what.
You know my people who I mentor, and even my own sons.
I have two sons and even my ownsons who are adults now.
But you know, only thing I tellthem all the time is don't shy
away from the risk, do the hardthing, make the risky decision
and if, at the very least,you'll learn something valuable
(13:03):
from it as life moves on, soit's never I I I believe this.
I don't want to put this oneverybody, but I believe it's
always worth it to take a riskfor something you think might
work.
Speaker 2 (13:16):
No, I agree with you and I'm right there with you on
that.
I mean it's.
It's one of those things whereit may not be as easy as you
thought it was, but that'sbecause you set expectations for
how it was going to go.
So if you don't setexpectations, then you can't be
disappointed when it doesn't goas fast as you want it to go.
You have to trust the process.
Anything worth value is goingto cost either time, money or
(13:38):
effort, and you have to realizethat there's no set amount,
usually all three of those.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
Oh, 100% yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
And there's no set amount.
And there's no set amount onany of them necessarily.
I mean, when I launched thefranchise, believe me, I was in
my own head at month 10 of notselling a franchise.
And then I had to like recentermyself and even say, like you
knew this was going to be hard,like no one told you when you
were going to sell one.
And so then, a year later, wegot our first one, then our
second one, and then it goesdown the road when you were
going to sell one, right.
And so then you know, a yearlater, we got our first one,
(14:06):
then our second one, and then itgoes down the road and you just
have to trust the process andrealize it.
It'll work out.
There's always a solution toevery problem.
You just have to find it.
Speaker 1 (14:14):
You got to keep plugging away.
That's right.
I mean, I think a lot of peoplegive up too soon.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
Definitely, definitely.
So I mean your expertise inleadership right.
What makes a good leader?
Like what skills?
What traits qualify a goodleader versus the average leader
?
Speaker 1 (14:35):
Right?
That's a great question because, to be honest with you, the
answer varies from person toperson.
A situation, a situation, andthat's what people really don't
like to hear.
So I've spent the last 20 yearsresearching a construct called
contextual intelligence, and oneof the first books that I wrote
was now it's and it's justactually came out literally two
(14:56):
days ago.
The second edition came outliterally two days ago, the
second edition, but basicallythe title of the book is
Contextual Intelligence, andit's basically how to navigate
uncertainty, and one of thethings that we've learned
through that is context matters,right, and the thing that I was
always interested in learningare well, what are the specific
(15:19):
attributes that a leader useseverywhere, regardless of
context?
You know, whether they'repromoted, demoted, move when
situation changes, disruption,life happens, whatever it is.
Are there leadership behaviorsthat every leader uses all the
time, regardless?
And what we found out is yeah,there are a few, and the thing
(15:43):
about that is the few, though,are actually mindsets as much as
more than they are behaviors.
And everybody.
Well, what's the one thingevery leader needs to have?
Well, again, that depends onthe context, because the context
dictates what needs to be done.
Peter Drucker said, who's aniconic management thinker.
For decades.
(16:06):
He's gone on now, but he alwayssaid culture eats strategy for
breakfast, and what is meant bythat is culture always has more
power than your strategy.
Whatever you think you're goingto do, the plans you put in
place are always going to comein second to the culture that's
(16:28):
established.
Well, the culture is thecontext, so context dictates
what's appropriate and the bestleaders.
If there's one thing that everyleader needs to do, or anything
, they need to learn to diagnosethe context.
They need to learn to see whattype of situation they are in
(16:49):
and what particular skill isneeded, because the best leaders
don't just do one thing well,they do everything well well.
They do everything well, andwhat I mean by that is you know
there's leadership styles.
A good leader has multipleleadership styles.
(17:11):
They understand that in thissituation I need to behave like
this and in that situation Ineed to behave like that, and
they know how to change thosehats.
That's what it means to becontextually intelligent and
that.
So that's really what we'retalking about here, and and I'll
just throw out one other littleframework that I use quite a
(17:31):
bit to help with this Causepeople will ask all the time All
right, well, how do I becomemore contextually aware?
Well, we talk about using askill set called 3D thinking.
3d thinking, the 3Ds, are thethree dimensions of time.
So the 3D thinking arehindsight how we understand the
(17:53):
past.
Insight how we are perceivingthe present and foresight how we
are anticipating the future.
So hindsight, insight andforesight.
Most people default andoveremphasize hindsight when it
comes to making a decision,evaluating an opportunity,
determining where to go, etc.
(18:14):
And what they ought to be doingis including hindsight, insight
and foresight.
So when you have all threedimensions of time operating,
you actually see more than youinitially would see and you
actually have more data, moreinformation, more experiences to
inform what it is you're doingand that of course, we unpack
(18:37):
that over like a two-day seminar.
Like I said, I wrote a book onit, so it's hard to do here in
20 minutes, but but that'sreally an important thing.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
So I would say you know, make sure they're
contextually aware, make surethey have multiple skill sets,
and then the way to get to thatplace is practice 3d thinking no
, actually I I think that'sthat's an awesome way to put it
and I would almost say that formy own journey, I'm definitely
not the same leader I was a yearago, let alone two years ago,
(19:07):
or even when we opened thebusiness.
And I was having a talk withone of my managers the other day
that's running in the gym andkind of explaining and trying to
.
We had our manager training,essentially trying to just
continuously make him better,and I gave him the explanation,
like remember how reactive I waswhen I was training you, when
(19:27):
we first, like I hired him whenyou know we had been open for
like less than six months, and Iwas like that definitely was
not the example of leadership,right, I was like you have to be
able to.
Sometimes you're going to beupset in the situation.
Right, you know one of thetrainers does something.
You know a member sayssomething that frustrates you.
Like, take a beat right, take asecond, analyze it right and
(19:52):
realize, like, what is what'supsetting you about this?
Like, and if you cause, if youjust react, then the person's
going to receive it a certainway, and there's probably
they're not.
You're probably not going toget the outcome that you want,
and I remember from myleadership growth journey like I
would analyze situations afterthe fact and regret some of the
ways that you know, some of thedecisions or impulses that I
(20:13):
would make or do, and then belike man, okay next time that
happens.
And so it's like a constantevaluation of yourself into now
what is essentially the 3Dthinking model.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
Yeah, that's exactly right.
And that's again what a goodleader does is they're
constantly evolving, they'reconstantly growing.
They understand that whatworked yesterday isn't going to
work tomorrow.
And the problem I'm trying tosolve today is, even though it
might be similar, even though itmight look the same, even
though it might involve a lot ofthe same characteristics, it's
(20:46):
still a unique context and wehave to bring our solutions.
We have to think about oursolutions as a unique
intervention for every situationwe have.
And I think some of the problemsleaders and managers have is
they just think okay, this islast time I had a disgruntled
(21:07):
client, this is how I handled itand it's supposed to work.
You know, it's going to workthe same way then or now as it
did then.
And that's just not life,that's just not true.
And we need to develop thoseskill sets to discern what's
unique about this situation, andthat's really the foundation of
(21:29):
great leadership.
I mean, you look back at historyand things like Abraham Lincoln
, winston Churchill they bothwere trying to be leaders for
decades before they actuallywere.
I think Lincoln, winstonChurchill, they both were trying
to be leaders for decadesbefore they actually were.
I think Lincoln, you know, ranfor office 16 times, you know,
before he was actually elected.
Churchill was a frustratedpolitician before he came to
(21:51):
power in the UK during World WarII.
And what was it that made bothof these men and these are just
two pretty easy examples tocherry pick from is the context,
the situation demanded thattype of leader for that moment
of time that they were in.
And if we can now take that on amicrocosm to our own lives,
(22:11):
every situation that we findourselves now, every situation
in the gym, every situation inthe organization, every
situation at home in thecommunity, wherever we're at,
they're all their own standalonethings and I need a skill that
speaks in each one of thoseplaces.
That requires a lot of work onmy part for professional and
(22:34):
personal development, and that'sreally what I'm after.
The leaders who make adifference in people's lives are
the leaders who understand thatthey need to bring something
different to each person in eachsituation, and that's where
leadership is respect, orrespect is earned as a leader,
and I think that's.
I just believe that, and Ithink I can argue pretty
(22:55):
convincingly that that's true.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
No, I'm right there with you on everything you're
saying.
I think that's amazing and theway you've been able to break it
down and like take it from just.
You know you need to becompassionate, you need to be
straightforward, you know,taking just some of these
generic terms that peopleassociate with being a leader
and kind of diving into it, likethere's a whole mindset map,
essentially, that you need tokind of put on, like you
(23:21):
mentioned, like you need to puton the different hats, the
different masks at differenttimes, you know, so that you get
the outcome that you want.
Is this a straightforward time?
Is this a?
I need to be, you know, a littlemore, not coddling, but you
know, a little more sensitiveyou know or is this a raw, raw
kind of moment you know as aleader, right and being able to
switch between the two, eventhough you want to just yell at
(23:44):
someone?
Speaker 1 (23:45):
right, that's not what it takes.
We all have our defaults right,and I'm not saying that we
don't have our preferred leader.
Every leader has a preferredleadership style where they're
strongest, where they can getthe most done and, of course,
our tendencies as humans is todefault to our preferred style
all the time.
But this is where maturity andwisdom come in, this is where
(24:08):
doing the hard part ofleadership comes in, because,
even though my preferred styleis X, this intervention requires
Z.
You know, and that's what weneed to do.
And, like you said, I love themetaphor of changing hats,
because we have to be able tochange hats all the time to lead
effectively.
And you know I could, yeah, if Icould throw out, you know,
(24:30):
another, another bigger mindsetshift.
I just actually just wrote abrand new book that's coming out
in August, called Becoming Epica remedy for mediocrity, and
I'm very much into this idearight now, of what do we need to
do as people, as humans, toovercome the mediocrity that
(24:56):
seems to be everywhere, allaround us.
You know, people are justsettling for average, they're
settling for okay, they'resettling for norm, this is as
good as it's going to get, andthat really bothers me, you know
, and because I believe thingscan always be better.
Now, that's part of my mindsetand I think that's part of what
(25:19):
you're about and what you'redoing with the space that you
work in.
And I developed this mnemoniccalled Becoming Epic, and epic
is as a mnemonic, for the Estands for excellent be
excellent, the P stands forperceptive be perceptive, the I
stands for inspiration, or beinspired, and the C stands for
(25:41):
compassion be compassionate.
And then so the whole book isabout becoming epic as a person,
as a leader, as a performer,and overcoming mediocrity by
these four maxims, and basically, what we've just been talking
about is the idea of perception.
In fact, I even mentioned someof my contextual intelligence
(26:02):
research in the chapters onperception, because that's what
we're talking about.
Leaders need to be perceptive,right, they need to go into a
situation and recognize.
Like you just said, thissituation calls for a little bit
more direct interaction.
This situation calls for alittle bit more direct
interaction and this situationcalls for a little bit less
direct interaction, a little bitmore.
I think you used the wordcoddling.
(26:22):
You know a little bit morecoddling here, you know, but
that's what a wise leader does.
They perceive what's needed andI think that's critical.
Of course, the other aspectsthere of being epic is being
excellent is prettyself-explanatory.
I do think that there is a bigproblem with leaders today, or
people in general.
They misunderstand excellencefor perfection, and I am one,
(26:49):
and the literature is actuallypretty clear.
The problem with perfectionism,and perfectionism actually is a
major detriment.
We can't be perfect, but we canbe excellent, and there's a
difference and I think there'ssomething really exciting about
that.
We've already talked about beingperceptive, and then being
inspired is something else thatpeople think inspiration comes
(27:12):
from an external source.
In fact, greek mythology taughtus that inspiration comes from
the muses.
Right, creativity comes fromthe muses, these goddesses who
are out there who would inspirepoets and artists and things
like that to create things ofbeauty.
And the reality is there's nomuses, there's no goddesses of
(27:34):
creativity out there.
The creativity is within, andwe have to develop the mindset
to unleash the creativity thatwe have instead of looking for
it from an external source.
And then, finally, compassion,which I think also is pretty
self-explanatory.
We just need to understandevery single person we encounter
(27:54):
has a story that we reallydon't know and could benefit
from knowing.
Speaker 2 (28:01):
No, definitely.
And I think that you are right,too, on the perfectionism being
detriment, because, in myopinion, I think that
perfectionism, or even strivingfor perfectionism like realizing
that perfectionism is or beingperfect or having something
that's perfect is also just yourperception, perception of what
is perfect.
Right, Because we might worktogether, we might be co-owners
(28:23):
of something and you might havethis vision of what perfect
looks like, but it's not myvision of what perfect looks
like.
And now you know you got issues.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
Yeah, that's a great point and I think a lot of times
we we fool ourselves.
And one of the bigrecommendations that I make,
both in the contextualintelligence book and in the
epic book, is we need to havepeople in our lives who help us
reset our perception and ourperspective.
(28:52):
You know because a lot causeyou're exactly right what I
think needs to happen.
As perfect, you might think no,that's a train wreck if we do.
You know, and we need to havethese people in our lives.
You know, and I think that's socritical, and you know, go back
to the question you asked mebefore about you know what's.
(29:13):
What does a leader need to have?
And I'll maybe amend or addsomething to my statement,
because I don't believe anyperson can be epic alone.
You know, and in fact that'sone of the titles in my book,
one of the chapter titles in mybook no one can be epic alone,
because to be the leader thatyou need to be requires
(29:36):
intentional teamwork, and that'sanother thing.
That's hard because, like yousaid, sometimes the members and
the bristling that happensbetween individuals shouldn't be
(29:58):
taken as, hey, we're not a goodteam or we shouldn't be working
together.
It shouldn't be taken as youhave something that I need and I
have something that you need.
We can get to that framework inour thinking and that mindset.
All of a sudden, we double,triple, quadruple our power to
perform.
Speaker 2 (30:17):
No, definitely.
I think that's where leadersstart to be.
The bottleneck is where theythink that they need to be the
one right that you actually willbe epic and you will.
Your business, your life, yourteam will grow when you let them
have buy-in right, meaning thatlike, for example, on a smaller
(30:38):
note, right, we're having ourfour-year, you know, celebration
of the business and I've alwayshad the perception of not
wanting to have, like, abartender and drinks and stuff
like that, because it's a gym,but at the same time, I do see
all these other places doing it.
So I asked both of the managersseparately like their opinion.
I was like, all right, I wantto get your thoughts on it.
Maybe it's just my perception,my perspective.
(30:59):
And then both of them were likeI think you should do it, like
you know, okay, like you guyswant it, like this is, we'll do
it, even though it wasn't my, myinitial thing.
But now, even though they had adecision on that, like they
feel like they have moredecisions in the business.
So I'll ask them before we runa campaign hey, I'm thinking of
A, b or C, which one do you like?
Right and why?
Like, explain why Right.
(31:20):
And so now, when we choose thatone, they're like I had a
decision in choosing that.
Speaker 1 (31:25):
Yeah, it creates buy-in, and that's what the
value of teamwork is all about.
It doesn't mean that there'snot one person who has the final
say so, so to speak, and I dobelieve organizations need that.
I'm not.
I'm definitely not one of these.
Everybody's equal in the teamand all that that's.
That's ridiculous right you'renever going to grow, you're
never going to get direction.
But it is the responsibility ofa good leader to create buy-in
(31:50):
among their team.
And what you just described isan excellent way to create
buy-in, because they need tofeel and believe that this is
mine too right and that's reallyimportant.
And to give them theopportunities to do that, to
pitch in their ideas, is huge.
And that goes for the entiregamut of life.
(32:13):
And even when you're raisingkids now, you're not going to
let your three-year-old, youknow, but maybe your 14 or
15-year-old deserves a littlebit more input than they did
when they were seven, you know.
And your 17 or 18-year-olddeserves even a little bit more
input when they were 14 or 15.
And so it's the same way inlife when they were 14 or 15.
(32:35):
And this is so.
It's the same way in life.
And and we, we know that thatmakes sense to us in our minds,
but when we go to actuallypractice it sometimes we forget
that.
And that's really what, youknow, I try to do is let
everybody understand.
Listen, it's not as hard as itlooks, but it's not as easy as
you think either.
Speaker 2 (32:53):
And I would almost argue, actually it works for my
three-year-old.
It's funny that you mentionedthat age, um, where I'll let her
have a buy-in to the decisionboth of the decisions we're
gonna do but let her have thechoice of the order, like do you
want to get your pajamas on ordo you want to brush your teeth?
Speaker 1 (33:10):
right, of course, yeah, you know, and then.
Speaker 2 (33:12):
So then she's like okay, brush my teeth.
Okay, cool, brush your teeth.
And then wait a couple minutesand all right, two minutes,
they're gonna put your pajamason, all right, you know.
Speaker 1 (33:19):
Then she's like okay, but you know she had a good
because she was part of thatdecision and she knew it was
coming.
Yeah, that's great, that'sfunny, because I because that
that's a perfect example, devonand uh, and I was thinking of a
little something a little bitdifferent, because I've talked
to parents who, like, consulttheir kids with what?
How should we pick?
You know we need to movecommunities, like wait a second.
(33:41):
You know they're not going tobe a logical choice there, but
that's a great idea.
Hey, do you want to brush yourteeth first or put your pajamas
on first, you know, or do youwant to read the story first?
Whatever, you know, kind of athing.
But these are, this is whatwe're doing.
You can fit the order, butthat's age appropriate, you know
, and and and.
Think about now the organization.
Same thing with theorganization, we need to let our
(34:02):
staff, our teams, you know,make a maturity, appropriate
decisions.
You know your managers shouldbe able to speak to.
Okay, here's what we're goingto do, here's what our marketing
campaign should look like,here's what we need to do for
the corporate celebration andstuff like that.
That's great, but you're notgoing to let your six month, you
know person who's been one ofyour personal trainers, who's
(34:24):
only been in the company for sixmonths chime in on those types
of decisions at this point.
You know and that's again notevery I don't want to jump on
too much of a soapbox, but a lotof managers actually don't do
that.
You know, we give equal voiceto everybody around here and and
I kind of think that's a littlenaive, to be honest with you-
(34:45):
oh no, I agree with you.
Speaker 2 (34:47):
I I've.
My company is a merit-basedcompany, like that's, and that's
just how it is.
But I agree, like even I havetwo managers.
One of them was with me sincesix months, one is a newer
manager.
They have different levels ofan eye into the business as well
as they have different levelsof decision making, right, you
know, and and so forth, andthat's.
(35:07):
It should be just like with thekids.
There's age appropriate, youknow decisions.
Well, there's, you know, titleor role positions that you know
get the same, same critique aswell, same, essentially, choices
.
Speaker 1 (35:28):
Absolutely, and we're moving everybody towards what I
call the epic maxims.
You're always striving for anexcellent track record, you're
always striving to discern yourenvironment as accurately as
possible, and there are peoplearound you to help you with that
.
You know, and and and all thosekinds of things I think are
absolutely critical.
Speaker 2 (35:48):
No, definitely, and I love you that you use the word
striving.
That's actually the name of thegym.
So before we wrap up, I'd liketo ask one final question, and
that is on your legacy wall.
Right Now.
I will preface this by sayingit's not a tombstone, even
though I say that some peoplestill give me a tombstone answer
.
Right, it is the legacy wall.
(36:08):
Essentially, what is the onemessage that you would leave for
the up and coming generationsthat you've learned along your
life's journey?
Speaker 1 (36:16):
So you know I'll answer this, answer it this way
because I'll tell you what Itell my sons, as they're now
developing their own familiesand things like that, and it's
everything that you do, do thebest that you can.
And you know that sounds simple,that sounds, you know, maybe
even a little parochial, but Ido believe with all of my heart,
(36:37):
if you want to make the impactthat you want to make and leave
the legacy that you want toleave, you can't do it unless
you are doing your best ateverything you put your hand to,
and and you know the efforteffort is is secondary.
Effort comes and goes.
Things of life happen, allthose kinds of things, but I
(36:58):
think, as long as you're doingyour best for that day,
understanding that some days andthis is hard, because this is
what I tell my sons some daysyour best isn't good enough,
okay, but what do we do tomorrow?
Tomorrow, we do our best again,and if we do our best every day
, eventually we'll get to theplace we need to get.
(37:19):
And I think that's what I hopepeople say about me is and think
about me as this is a guy whojust always tried to do the best
he could do agree with the.
Speaker 2 (37:31):
Today you did your best, and it may not be good
enough, but you did learn alesson.
So tomorrow's best is betterthan today's best.
Right, and and eventually itwill pay off.
Right, and you will be able todo whatever it was.
So I love that.
Where, where can people connectwith you?
Or even more?
Speaker 1 (37:48):
so where can they get the book that's coming out?
Yeah, the best place is just mywebsite.
Um and uh, it's Matthewcootscom, so matthew with two
t's and coots is spelled k-u-t-z, so matthewcootscom.
I've got articles there.
I've got books there.
Buy all kinds of stuff therefor you, so hope to see you
there yeah, I'll put that in theshow notes, guys.
Speaker 2 (38:08):
uh, so make sure you guys check it out.
Um, the book epic is coming out, you said, said in August.
Yep, perfect.
And honestly, guys, make sureyou guys share this episode with
a friend, right?
Share this episode with someonewho is in a leadership position
or you know that you know istrying to become into a leader,
a leadership position, right.
But, like always, we appreciateyou guys for listening in.
(38:30):
And, matt, thank you so muchfor taking the time out of your
day to hop on the mindset cafe.
Thanks, I really appreciate it.
A ton of fun.
Speaker 1 (38:34):
and Matt, thank you so much for taking the time out
of your day to hop on theMindset Cafe.
Thanks, I really appreciate it.
A ton of fun.
What is up guys?
Welcome to another episode ofthe Mindset Cafe podcast.
It's your boy, devin, and todaywe got a special guest.
We got Dr Matt Kutz.
He is a Fulbright scholar.
He is an entrepreneur, anathletic trainer, professor and
the creator of the ContextualIntelligence Profile I hope I
didn't butcher that A gamechanging tool that helps leaders
(00:46):
thrive in complexity.
Right and with nearly 30 yearsof experience in leadership and
development, you know Dr Kudzhas trained Fortune 500
companies, universities, globalorganizations and, honestly,
he's taught them all to leadwith clarity and adaptability.
So I'm truly honored to haveyou on today.
Thank you so much for takingthe time out of your day to hop
on clarity and adaptability, soI'm truly honored to have you on
today.
Thank you so much for takingthe time out of your day to hop
(01:07):
on the Mindset Cafe.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
Oh, thanks, devin, I really appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
So I always like to dive in, you know, on your
background, Like what was, youknow, a bird's eye view of your
journey to today.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
Wow yeah, so I don't know.
We call that.
It's a three beer story for alot.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
So you know, my background is athletic training.
So I started just, you know,like every other person and I
was just had to pick a major incollege and I picked athletic
training because it had athleticin the title and I didn't even
know what athletic training wasReally.
I played sports in high schooland college myself so I thought
that sounds kind of cool and itturned out to be a combination
(01:50):
of health care and sports.
So it's basically, you know,athletic trainers are the ones
who do the diagnosis, therehabilitation for athletes when
they get injured.
So absolutely great career,found my people and just found
myself right away in a communityof high performing individuals.
You know, athletes generallywant to be better, do better,
(02:13):
get better, and they want to doit all right now.
So that was kind of the mindsetI was around.
Get injured, you know it wascompletely different working
with them versus working with Ihope it's not too disparaging
but working with the averagepopulation, right, the general
population, who you know reallywere fine with missing a few
(02:36):
days work.
In fact, you know I'm gettingpaid to be on, you know, off
right now.
So I'm really not in a rush toget well, to get better, to
restore strength, whatever,where athletes are the exact
opposite.
We had to actually slow themdown.
Okay, wait, you're not ready togo back and play yet, even
though they mostly wanted to goin, like right now it's like
(02:56):
your leg is hanging off yourbody here, you're not ready to
go back.
Oh no, I tape it up, I can go.
Tape it up, I can go, and um,and so that mindset, I think um,
kind of just appealed to me.
It was part of who I wasanyways, and uh, and I found a
way later in my career totransition that mindset into the
(03:16):
corporate what I call thecorporate athlete and into the
organizational space and usesome of those principles to
develop that kind of mindset oflisten, we can do this and we
can do it better and we can goat it appropriately within a
reasonable amount of time, youknow, and improve, improve our
(03:39):
organization, improve our team,improve our department, whatever
it might be.
So long story and, like I said,it's a three beer story.
But went and then got my PhDseveral years later after
working for a while in Oregonand global leadership, and that
opened up a lot of opportunitiesAgain, I'll spare you all the
boring details but ended upmoving to Rwanda living in
(04:01):
Rwanda as a Fulbright scholar,ended up moving to Rwanda living
in Rwanda as a Fulbrightscholar, teaching orthopedic
assessment over there in aphysical therapy school.
A few years after that I got afaculty appointment in Brisbane,
australia.
I moved my family to the GoldCoast in Australia, worked there
at Griffith University, workingin their health service
(04:22):
administration master's degreeand now I'm back in Ohio
Actually, I Ohio.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
I work in Florida, in Miami and at Florida
International University, and adoctor of athletic training
program now oh wow, I meanthat's awesome and I mean your,
your journey is definitelyinteresting and that's why it
makes it so cool is going toathletic training, and I mean
being a trainer myself andowning a gym and gym franchise
and everything like that likeit's.
(04:48):
It's always cool to meet withlike-minded people.
But what was your, your pivotinto getting a PhD into in like
leadership instead of like insomething in the kinesiology
field?
Speaker 1 (04:59):
yeah, great question, because everyone else in my
space has their PhD in eitherexercise physiology, kinesiology
, something like that, and itwas a very, very difficult
decision.
So I don't want to underscorethat.
But I found myself in thisthree-bear story journey.
We're talking about One of thethings.
I found myself at a smalluniversity down in South Florida
(05:21):
and I was working as theirstrength and conditioning coach.
I'm a CSCS as well and I was acertified strength and
conditioning specialist as wellas an athletic trainer.
So I was working down there inboth capacities and I started
teaching some courses and thedean at the time was there was
like, hey, listen, you're doinga great job teaching and stuff,
but if you really want to getthe salary that you need for
(05:44):
your family at a young family atthe time, you're really going
to need to get a terminal degree, you're going to need to get a
doctoral degree.
And so I just did whateverybody did, okay.
So I started looking atrehabilitation science, exercise
.
My master's degree is inexercise physiology.
So I'm like, hey, exercise physis perfect, I'm going to go
back and exercise phys andsomething and I can't tell you
(06:06):
what it was, devin, but therewas something you know, just in
me.
That was like hold on a second.
You know, let's try to look atthe bigger picture here.
And so I slowed down a littlebit and I started exploring some
other programs and I've alwaysloved leadership, like I said,
high performance.
I've always considered goodleaders, high performers, and I
(06:29):
was like maybe there's somethingthere.
So I just found a program, aPhD program in global leadership
.
It had with a specialization inorganizational and corporate
management.
I'm like you know what?
I might be the only athletictrainer in the world that has
their PhD from a businesscollege, but I think I'm going
to do this instead and see justwhat happens.
(06:51):
And amazing things did happen.
It opened up huge opportunitiesfor me, even within the
discipline of athletic trainingthat I'm still very actively
involved in.
That I'm still very activelyinvolved in.
I'm actually probably the onlyone who specializes in the
(07:11):
organizational performance of anorganization, of an academic
program, of a rehabilitationdepartment, something like that.
So I have a little niche nowand I've written a bunch of
books and textbooks.
So I use my textbooks and allthe curriculum programs because
I'm the only one of the fewprograms Cause I'm the only one,
one of the few, I shouldn't saythe only one one of the few
that writes books on leadershipfor sports medicine
(07:33):
professionals.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
No, that's awesome and I love that because, like, I
mean, I don't have a master's.
I got my bachelor's in in Kinesand if I were to go, you know,
I'd probably get my master's insomething else in kinesiology.
But I always like to kind ofventure and take other classes
and learn other things.
So it's awesome that you werelike I'm not going to go with
(07:57):
the crowd and go with whateveryone else is doing.
This thing I can still apply itto what I'm doing and other
things.
But this is really interestingme over here, right, and he
knows what doors will open.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
Yeah, and that was the real challenge.
That was actually the fun part,because I had to do a lot of
explaining early on of why Iwanted to do this thing in this
space, and it was really only me.
Even my wife didn't see it orrecognize it right at the time.
I was really the only one whocould see the need and the
connection.
(08:31):
And now granted, this was, youknow, 20 plus years ago.
Athletic training is not.
We've been around for about 70years as a profession, so we're
not as old as nursing, physicaltherapy, other of our sister
professions, and so because ofthat, the whole profession was
(08:51):
kind of in this new space.
So it was like we all need toget these degrees in this area.
And I was thinking because Iwas a big fan of actually the
nursing literature at the timewho are light years ahead of
other professions relative toleadership in healthcare, and so
I just, like I said, I'vealways been a huge student of
leadership anyways and I thoughtjust maybe this might be
(09:17):
beneficial somewhere down theroad and someone's going to need
this.
And it turned out to be greatfor me and, like I said, I've
served.
I'm actually the vice presidentfor the World Federation of
Athletic Training and Therapy.
I serve as a bunch that way, soyou really have to have you
know.
I love the title of your, evenyour podcast the Mindset Cafe,
(09:50):
because you're not going to gointo new spaces in any field, in
any industry, unless you havethe proper mindset.
You have to see what otherpeople can't see and don't see.
That goes for your health, itgoes for your decision making,
your relationships, everything,and that's a huge, huge lesson
we could all learn.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
No, definitely.
And it takes a uniqueindividual that's willing to go
against the against stream andessentially figure out the
unknown, Because I mean, that'swhat essentially you're doing.
Is that, okay, you know, withthis new, you know PhD, how can
I make the connections Right?
The field is untapped.
Essentially, yeah, there's, youknow, athletic training, which
(10:34):
most people think.
When they say, oh, yeah, I'm anathletic trainer, they're like,
oh, you train athletes.
It's like, no, that's a wholedifferent degree than just a
personal trainer.
That's a.
That's a level up.
That's a whole different degreethan just a personal trainer.
That's a that's a level up.
Um, but now you're in a fieldwhere it's like, look, you can,
you can take a bird's eye viewand look at a different aspect
of the whole, uh, industry andmake it better.
(10:56):
Right and so.
And also, I mean, let's say, ifyou're right now, if you're in
school and you're, you know,doing your degrees and looking
at your pipeline down, it's likeif you're in school and you're,
you know, doing your degreesand looking at your pipeline
down, it's like if you're doingwhat everyone else is doing and
you're applying for a job,you're going to be one of the
many instead of being one of thefew and being able to pitch it
a different way.
Speaker 1 (11:15):
Yeah, you've got to do something to differentiate
yourself from the crowd, youknow, and that's that's what
leaders do.
I mean, that's the big partabout you know, the really
interesting thing about studyingleaders who make a difference
and the mindset that leadershave, because there is a big
(11:36):
difference between a leader'smindset and a manager's mindset
and this is something I talkabout in a lot of other spaces
as well.
But so many of us get caught upin the manager's mindset you
know I need to manage thesituation.
So many of us get caught up inthe manager's mindset you know I
need to manage the situation.
And leadership is aboutbudgeting and setting agendas
and organizing staff and thosekinds of things.
And, while there's elements oftruth in it, the real leaders
are the ones that get people tomove beyond the limits that
(11:59):
they've set for themselves, andI think that's really, really an
important part.
And to do that it's everythingyou just said You've got to
think differently, you've got toattack it a different way.
You've got to get to the goalthat you want, and maybe a
little bit of an unusual pathway, but you have to be able to see
that pathway and be convincedthat it will work, and to do
(12:22):
that requires you know amanagement of risk.
You know there's this thing thatmany of us, many people, fear
risk.
Shy away from risk and try toavoid risk.
I would be one who says, stopit.
I mean that's crazy.
And I can only tell you what Imean.
That's, that's, that's crazy.
(12:42):
And I can only tell you what.
You know my people who I mentor, and even my own sons.
I have two sons and even my ownsons who are adults now.
But you know, only thing I tellthem all the time is don't shy
away from the risk, do the hardthing, make the risky decision
and if, at the very least,you'll learn something valuable
(13:03):
from it as life moves on, soit's never I I I believe this.
I don't want to put this oneverybody, but I believe it's
always worth it to take a riskfor something you think might
work.
Speaker 2 (13:16):
No, I agree with you and I'm right there with you on
that.
I mean it's.
It's one of those things whereit may not be as easy as you
thought it was, but that'sbecause you set expectations for
how it was going to go.
So if you don't setexpectations, then you can't be
disappointed when it doesn't goas fast as you want it to go.
You have to trust the process.
Anything worth value is goingto cost either time, money or
(13:38):
effort, and you have to realizethat there's no set amount,
usually all three of those.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
Oh, 100% yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
And there's no set amount.
And there's no set amount onany of them necessarily.
I mean, when I launched thefranchise, believe me, I was in
my own head at month 10 of notselling a franchise.
And then I had to like recentermyself and even say, like you
knew this was going to be hard,like no one told you when you
were going to sell one.
And so then, a year later, wegot our first one, then our
second one, and then it goesdown the road when you were
going to sell one, right.
And so then you know, a yearlater, we got our first one,
(14:06):
then our second one, and then itgoes down the road and you just
have to trust the process andrealize it.
It'll work out.
There's always a solution toevery problem.
You just have to find it.
Speaker 1 (14:14):
You got to keep plugging away.
That's right.
I mean, I think a lot of peoplegive up too soon.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
Definitely, definitely.
So I mean your expertise inleadership right.
What makes a good leader?
Like what skills?
What traits qualify a goodleader versus the average leader
?
Speaker 1 (14:35):
Right?
That's a great question because, to be honest with you, the
answer varies from person toperson.
A situation, a situation, andthat's what people really don't
like to hear.
So I've spent the last 20 yearsresearching a construct called
contextual intelligence, and oneof the first books that I wrote
was now it's and it's justactually came out literally two
(14:56):
days ago.
The second edition came outliterally two days ago, the
second edition, but basicallythe title of the book is
Contextual Intelligence, andit's basically how to navigate
uncertainty, and one of thethings that we've learned
through that is context matters,right, and the thing that I was
always interested in learningare well, what are the specific
(15:19):
attributes that a leader useseverywhere, regardless of
context?
You know, whether they'repromoted, demoted, move when
situation changes, disruption,life happens, whatever it is.
Are there leadership behaviorsthat every leader uses all the
time, regardless?
And what we found out is yeah,there are a few, and the thing
(15:43):
about that is the few, though,are actually mindsets as much as
more than they are behaviors.
And everybody.
Well, what's the one thingevery leader needs to have?
Well, again, that depends onthe context, because the context
dictates what needs to be done.
Peter Drucker said, who's aniconic management thinker.
For decades.
(16:06):
He's gone on now, but he alwayssaid culture eats strategy for
breakfast, and what is meant bythat is culture always has more
power than your strategy.
Whatever you think you're goingto do, the plans you put in
place are always going to comein second to the culture that's
(16:28):
established.
Well, the culture is thecontext, so context dictates
what's appropriate and the bestleaders.
If there's one thing that everyleader needs to do, or anything
, they need to learn to diagnosethe context.
They need to learn to see whattype of situation they are in
(16:49):
and what particular skill isneeded, because the best leaders
don't just do one thing well,they do everything well well.
They do everything well, andwhat I mean by that is you know
there's leadership styles.
A good leader has multipleleadership styles.
(17:11):
They understand that in thissituation I need to behave like
this and in that situation Ineed to behave like that, and
they know how to change thosehats.
That's what it means to becontextually intelligent and
that.
So that's really what we'retalking about here, and and I'll
just throw out one other littleframework that I use quite a
(17:31):
bit to help with this Causepeople will ask all the time All
right, well, how do I becomemore contextually aware?
Well, we talk about using askill set called 3D thinking.
3d thinking, the 3Ds, are thethree dimensions of time.
So the 3D thinking arehindsight how we understand the
(17:53):
past.
Insight how we are perceivingthe present and foresight how we
are anticipating the future.
So hindsight, insight andforesight.
Most people default andoveremphasize hindsight when it
comes to making a decision,evaluating an opportunity,
determining where to go, etc.
(18:14):
And what they ought to be doingis including hindsight, insight
and foresight.
So when you have all threedimensions of time operating,
you actually see more than youinitially would see and you
actually have more data, moreinformation, more experiences to
inform what it is you're doingand that of course, we unpack
(18:37):
that over like a two-day seminar.
Like I said, I wrote a book onit, so it's hard to do here in
20 minutes, but but that'sreally an important thing.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
So I would say you know, make sure they're
contextually aware, make surethey have multiple skill sets,
and then the way to get to thatplace is practice 3d thinking no
, actually I I think that'sthat's an awesome way to put it
and I would almost say that formy own journey, I'm definitely
not the same leader I was a yearago, let alone two years ago,
(19:07):
or even when we opened thebusiness.
And I was having a talk withone of my managers the other day
that's running in the gym andkind of explaining and trying to
.
We had our manager training,essentially trying to just
continuously make him better,and I gave him the explanation,
like remember how reactive I waswhen I was training you, when
(19:27):
we first, like I hired him whenyou know we had been open for
like less than six months, and Iwas like that definitely was
not the example of leadership,right, I was like you have to be
able to.
Sometimes you're going to beupset in the situation.
Right, you know one of thetrainers does something.
You know a member sayssomething that frustrates you.
Like, take a beat right, take asecond, analyze it right and
(19:52):
realize, like, what is what'supsetting you about this?
Like, and if you cause, if youjust react, then the person's
going to receive it a certainway, and there's probably
they're not.
You're probably not going toget the outcome that you want,
and I remember from myleadership growth journey like I
would analyze situations afterthe fact and regret some of the
ways that you know, some of thedecisions or impulses that I
(20:13):
would make or do, and then belike man, okay next time that
happens.
And so it's like a constantevaluation of yourself into now
what is essentially the 3Dthinking model.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
Yeah, that's exactly right.
And that's again what a goodleader does is they're
constantly evolving, they'reconstantly growing.
They understand that whatworked yesterday isn't going to
work tomorrow.
And the problem I'm trying tosolve today is, even though it
might be similar, even though itmight look the same, even
though it might involve a lot ofthe same characteristics, it's
(20:46):
still a unique context and wehave to bring our solutions.
We have to think about oursolutions as a unique
intervention for every situationwe have.
And I think some of the problemsleaders and managers have is
they just think okay, this islast time I had a disgruntled
(21:07):
client, this is how I handled itand it's supposed to work.
You know, it's going to workthe same way then or now as it
did then.
And that's just not life,that's just not true.
And we need to develop thoseskill sets to discern what's
unique about this situation, andthat's really the foundation of
(21:29):
great leadership.
I mean, you look back at historyand things like Abraham Lincoln
, winston Churchill they bothwere trying to be leaders for
decades before they actuallywere.
I think Lincoln, winstonChurchill, they both were trying
to be leaders for decadesbefore they actually were.
I think Lincoln, you know, ranfor office 16 times, you know,
before he was actually elected.
Churchill was a frustratedpolitician before he came to
(21:51):
power in the UK during World WarII.
And what was it that made bothof these men and these are just
two pretty easy examples tocherry pick from is the context,
the situation demanded thattype of leader for that moment
of time that they were in.
And if we can now take that on amicrocosm to our own lives,
(22:11):
every situation that we findourselves now, every situation
in the gym, every situation inthe organization, every
situation at home in thecommunity, wherever we're at,
they're all their own standalonethings and I need a skill that
speaks in each one of thoseplaces.
That requires a lot of work onmy part for professional and
(22:34):
personal development, and that'sreally what I'm after.
The leaders who make adifference in people's lives are
the leaders who understand thatthey need to bring something
different to each person in eachsituation, and that's where
leadership is respect, orrespect is earned as a leader,
and I think that's.
I just believe that, and Ithink I can argue pretty
(22:55):
convincingly that that's true.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
No, I'm right there with you on everything you're
saying.
I think that's amazing and theway you've been able to break it
down and like take it from just.
You know you need to becompassionate, you need to be
straightforward, you know,taking just some of these
generic terms that peopleassociate with being a leader
and kind of diving into it, likethere's a whole mindset map,
essentially, that you need tokind of put on, like you
(23:21):
mentioned, like you need to puton the different hats, the
different masks at differenttimes, you know, so that you get
the outcome that you want.
Is this a straightforward time?
Is this a?
I need to be, you know, a littlemore, not coddling, but you
know, a little more sensitiveyou know or is this a raw, raw
kind of moment you know as aleader, right and being able to
switch between the two, eventhough you want to just yell at
(23:44):
someone?
Speaker 1 (23:45):
right, that's not what it takes.
We all have our defaults right,and I'm not saying that we
don't have our preferred leader.
Every leader has a preferredleadership style where they're
strongest, where they can getthe most done and, of course,
our tendencies as humans is todefault to our preferred style
all the time.
But this is where maturity andwisdom come in, this is where
(24:08):
doing the hard part ofleadership comes in, because,
even though my preferred styleis X, this intervention requires
Z.
You know, and that's what weneed to do.
And, like you said, I love themetaphor of changing hats,
because we have to be able tochange hats all the time to lead
effectively.
And you know I could, yeah, if Icould throw out, you know,
(24:30):
another, another bigger mindsetshift.
I just actually just wrote abrand new book that's coming out
in August, called Becoming Epica remedy for mediocrity, and
I'm very much into this idearight now, of what do we need to
do as people, as humans, toovercome the mediocrity that
(24:56):
seems to be everywhere, allaround us.
You know, people are justsettling for average, they're
settling for okay, they'resettling for norm, this is as
good as it's going to get, andthat really bothers me, you know
, and because I believe thingscan always be better.
Now, that's part of my mindsetand I think that's part of what
(25:19):
you're about and what you'redoing with the space that you
work in.
And I developed this mnemoniccalled Becoming Epic, and epic
is as a mnemonic, for the Estands for excellent be
excellent, the P stands forperceptive be perceptive, the I
stands for inspiration, or beinspired, and the C stands for
(25:41):
compassion be compassionate.
And then so the whole book isabout becoming epic as a person,
as a leader, as a performer,and overcoming mediocrity by
these four maxims, and basically, what we've just been talking
about is the idea of perception.
In fact, I even mentioned someof my contextual intelligence
(26:02):
research in the chapters onperception, because that's what
we're talking about.
Leaders need to be perceptive,right, they need to go into a
situation and recognize.
Like you just said, thissituation calls for a little bit
more direct interaction.
This situation calls for alittle bit more direct
interaction and this situationcalls for a little bit less
direct interaction, a little bitmore.
I think you used the wordcoddling.
(26:22):
You know a little bit morecoddling here, you know, but
that's what a wise leader does.
They perceive what's needed andI think that's critical.
Of course, the other aspectsthere of being epic is being
excellent is prettyself-explanatory.
I do think that there is a bigproblem with leaders today, or
people in general.
They misunderstand excellencefor perfection, and I am one,
(26:49):
and the literature is actuallypretty clear.
The problem with perfectionism,and perfectionism actually is a
major detriment.
We can't be perfect, but we canbe excellent, and there's a
difference and I think there'ssomething really exciting about
that.
We've already talked about beingperceptive, and then being
inspired is something else thatpeople think inspiration comes
(27:12):
from an external source.
In fact, greek mythology taughtus that inspiration comes from
the muses.
Right, creativity comes fromthe muses, these goddesses who
are out there who would inspirepoets and artists and things
like that to create things ofbeauty.
And the reality is there's nomuses, there's no goddesses of
(27:34):
creativity out there.
The creativity is within, andwe have to develop the mindset
to unleash the creativity thatwe have instead of looking for
it from an external source.
And then, finally, compassion,which I think also is pretty
self-explanatory.
We just need to understandevery single person we encounter
(27:54):
has a story that we reallydon't know and could benefit
from knowing.
Speaker 2 (28:01):
No, definitely.
And I think that you are right,too, on the perfectionism being
detriment, because, in myopinion, I think that
perfectionism, or even strivingfor perfectionism like realizing
that perfectionism is or beingperfect or having something
that's perfect is also just yourperception, perception of what
is perfect.
Right, Because we might worktogether, we might be co-owners
(28:23):
of something and you might havethis vision of what perfect
looks like, but it's not myvision of what perfect looks
like.
And now you know you got issues.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
Yeah, that's a great point and I think a lot of times
we we fool ourselves.
And one of the bigrecommendations that I make,
both in the contextualintelligence book and in the
epic book, is we need to havepeople in our lives who help us
reset our perception and ourperspective.
(28:52):
You know because a lot causeyou're exactly right what I
think needs to happen.
As perfect, you might think no,that's a train wreck if we do.
You know, and we need to havethese people in our lives.
You know, and I think that's socritical, and you know, go back
to the question you asked mebefore about you know what's.
(29:13):
What does a leader need to have?
And I'll maybe amend or addsomething to my statement,
because I don't believe anyperson can be epic alone.
You know, and in fact that'sone of the titles in my book,
one of the chapter titles in mybook no one can be epic alone,
because to be the leader thatyou need to be requires
(29:36):
intentional teamwork, and that'sanother thing.
That's hard because, like yousaid, sometimes the members and
the bristling that happensbetween individuals shouldn't be
(29:58):
taken as, hey, we're not a goodteam or we shouldn't be working
together.
It shouldn't be taken as youhave something that I need and I
have something that you need.
We can get to that framework inour thinking and that mindset.
All of a sudden, we double,triple, quadruple our power to
perform.
Speaker 2 (30:17):
No, definitely.
I think that's where leadersstart to be.
The bottleneck is where theythink that they need to be the
one right that you actually willbe epic and you will.
Your business, your life, yourteam will grow when you let them
have buy-in right, meaning thatlike, for example, on a smaller
(30:38):
note, right, we're having ourfour-year, you know, celebration
of the business and I've alwayshad the perception of not
wanting to have, like, abartender and drinks and stuff
like that, because it's a gym,but at the same time, I do see
all these other places doing it.
So I asked both of the managersseparately like their opinion.
I was like, all right, I wantto get your thoughts on it.
Maybe it's just my perception,my perspective.
(30:59):
And then both of them were likeI think you should do it, like
you know, okay, like you guyswant it, like this is, we'll do
it, even though it wasn't my, myinitial thing.
But now, even though they had adecision on that, like they
feel like they have moredecisions in the business.
So I'll ask them before we runa campaign hey, I'm thinking of
A, b or C, which one do you like?
Right and why?
Like, explain why Right.
(31:20):
And so now, when we choose thatone, they're like I had a
decision in choosing that.
Speaker 1 (31:25):
Yeah, it creates buy-in, and that's what the
value of teamwork is all about.
It doesn't mean that there'snot one person who has the final
say so, so to speak, and I dobelieve organizations need that.
I'm not.
I'm definitely not one of these.
Everybody's equal in the teamand all that that's.
That's ridiculous right you'renever going to grow, you're
never going to get direction.
But it is the responsibility ofa good leader to create buy-in
(31:50):
among their team.
And what you just described isan excellent way to create
buy-in, because they need tofeel and believe that this is
mine too right and that's reallyimportant.
And to give them theopportunities to do that, to
pitch in their ideas, is huge.
And that goes for the entiregamut of life.
(32:13):
And even when you're raisingkids now, you're not going to
let your three-year-old, youknow, but maybe your 14 or
15-year-old deserves a littlebit more input than they did
when they were seven, you know.
And your 17 or 18-year-olddeserves even a little bit more
input when they were 14 or 15.
And so it's the same way inlife when they were 14 or 15.
(32:35):
And this is so.
It's the same way in life.
And and we, we know that thatmakes sense to us in our minds,
but when we go to actuallypractice it sometimes we forget
that.
And that's really what, youknow, I try to do is let
everybody understand.
Listen, it's not as hard as itlooks, but it's not as easy as
you think either.
Speaker 2 (32:53):
And I would almost argue, actually it works for my
three-year-old.
It's funny that you mentionedthat age, um, where I'll let her
have a buy-in to the decisionboth of the decisions we're
gonna do but let her have thechoice of the order, like do you
want to get your pajamas on ordo you want to brush your teeth?
Speaker 1 (33:10):
right, of course, yeah, you know, and then.
Speaker 2 (33:12):
So then she's like okay, brush my teeth.
Okay, cool, brush your teeth.
And then wait a couple minutesand all right, two minutes,
they're gonna put your pajamason, all right, you know.
Speaker 1 (33:19):
Then she's like okay, but you know she had a good
because she was part of thatdecision and she knew it was
coming.
Yeah, that's great, that'sfunny, because I because that
that's a perfect example, devonand uh, and I was thinking of a
little something a little bitdifferent, because I've talked
to parents who, like, consulttheir kids with what?
How should we pick?
You know we need to movecommunities, like wait a second.
(33:41):
You know they're not going tobe a logical choice there, but
that's a great idea.
Hey, do you want to brush yourteeth first or put your pajamas
on first, you know, or do youwant to read the story first?
Whatever, you know, kind of athing.
But these are, this is whatwe're doing.
You can fit the order, butthat's age appropriate, you know
, and and and.
Think about now the organization.
Same thing with theorganization, we need to let our
(34:02):
staff, our teams, you know,make a maturity, appropriate
decisions.
You know your managers shouldbe able to speak to.
Okay, here's what we're goingto do, here's what our marketing
campaign should look like,here's what we need to do for
the corporate celebration andstuff like that.
That's great, but you're notgoing to let your six month, you
know person who's been one ofyour personal trainers, who's
(34:24):
only been in the company for sixmonths chime in on those types
of decisions at this point.
You know and that's again notevery I don't want to jump on
too much of a soapbox, but a lotof managers actually don't do
that.
You know, we give equal voiceto everybody around here and and
I kind of think that's a littlenaive, to be honest with you-
(34:45):
oh no, I agree with you.
Speaker 2 (34:47):
I I've.
My company is a merit-basedcompany, like that's, and that's
just how it is.
But I agree, like even I havetwo managers.
One of them was with me sincesix months, one is a newer
manager.
They have different levels ofan eye into the business as well
as they have different levelsof decision making, right, you
know, and and so forth, andthat's.
(35:07):
It should be just like with thekids.
There's age appropriate, youknow decisions.
Well, there's, you know, titleor role positions that you know
get the same, same critique aswell, same, essentially, choices
.
Speaker 1 (35:28):
Absolutely, and we're moving everybody towards what I
call the epic maxims.
You're always striving for anexcellent track record, you're
always striving to discern yourenvironment as accurately as
possible, and there are peoplearound you to help you with that
.
You know, and and and all thosekinds of things I think are
absolutely critical.
Speaker 2 (35:48):
No, definitely, and I love you that you use the word
striving.
That's actually the name of thegym.
So before we wrap up, I'd liketo ask one final question, and
that is on your legacy wall.
Right Now.
I will preface this by sayingit's not a tombstone, even
though I say that some peoplestill give me a tombstone answer
.
Right, it is the legacy wall.
(36:08):
Essentially, what is the onemessage that you would leave for
the up and coming generationsthat you've learned along your
life's journey?
Speaker 1 (36:16):
So you know I'll answer this, answer it this way
because I'll tell you what Itell my sons, as they're now
developing their own familiesand things like that, and it's
everything that you do, do thebest that you can.
And you know that sounds simple,that sounds, you know, maybe
even a little parochial, but Ido believe with all of my heart,
(36:37):
if you want to make the impactthat you want to make and leave
the legacy that you want toleave, you can't do it unless
you are doing your best ateverything you put your hand to,
and and you know the efforteffort is is secondary.
Effort comes and goes.
Things of life happen, allthose kinds of things, but I
(36:58):
think, as long as you're doingyour best for that day,
understanding that some days andthis is hard, because this is
what I tell my sons some daysyour best isn't good enough,
okay, but what do we do tomorrow?
Tomorrow, we do our best again,and if we do our best every day
, eventually we'll get to theplace we need to get.
(37:19):
And I think that's what I hopepeople say about me is and think
about me as this is a guy whojust always tried to do the best
he could do agree with the.
Speaker 2 (37:31):
Today you did your best, and it may not be good
enough, but you did learn alesson.
So tomorrow's best is betterthan today's best.
Right, and and eventually itwill pay off.
Right, and you will be able todo whatever it was.
So I love that.
Where, where can people connectwith you?
Or even more?
Speaker 1 (37:48):
so where can they get the book that's coming out?
Yeah, the best place is just mywebsite.
Um and uh, it's Matthewcootscom, so matthew with two
t's and coots is spelled k-u-t-z, so matthewcootscom.
I've got articles there.
I've got books there.
Buy all kinds of stuff therefor you, so hope to see you
there yeah, I'll put that in theshow notes, guys.
Speaker 2 (38:08):
uh, so make sure you guys check it out.
Um, the book epic is coming out, you said, said in August.
Yep, perfect.
And honestly, guys, make sureyou guys share this episode with
a friend, right?
Share this episode with someonewho is in a leadership position
or you know that you know istrying to become into a leader,
a leadership position, right.
But, like always, we appreciateyou guys for listening in.
(38:30):
And, matt, thank you so muchfor taking the time out of your
day to hop on the mindset cafe.
Thanks, I really appreciate it.
A ton of fun.
Speaker 1 (38:34):
and Matt, thank you so much for taking the time out
of your day to hop on theMindset Cafe.
Thanks, I really appreciate it.
A ton of fun.
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