November 26, 2024 • 26 mins
Get ready to unlock the secrets of creating equitable educational environments in our latest episode featuring Dr. Sheldon Eakins, the visionary behind the Leading Equity Center. Gain firsthand insight into Dr. Eakins' experiences as a Black educator navigating predominantly white spaces in Idaho. His compelling journey underscores the critical need for conducting thorough audits in schools to pinpoint areas requiring improvement, ultimately fostering more inclusive practices. You'll learn not just the 'why' but also the 'how' of implementing these audits to create a supportive learning atmosphere for all students.
But that’s not all—join us as we dive into the powerful strategies for empowering student voices, a fundamental component in building a sense of belonging and inclusivity. Learn how to effectively address microaggressions, implicit biases, and tokenism within your school environment. Discover the transformative potential of advocacy rooms and affinity groups, and how they can serve as vital platforms for students to share their experiences and influence school policies. This segment is packed with actionable advice to help educators engage students and staff in meaningful conversations about equity.
Finally, we tackle the nuanced challenge of addressing bias through a real-world classroom example that unintentionally marginalized students from diverse backgrounds. Hear the thought-provoking discussion on the importance of being mindful of students' varied histories and the need to adapt traditions and language to prevent harm. Wrapping up, we explore the concept of minimalism in education and its benefits for creating equitable schools. Join Tammy, Christine, and our expert guests as we uncover practical steps for educators dedicated to fostering an inclusive, supportive, and equitable learning environment.
Sheldon L. Eakins, Ph.D., is the Founder of the Leading Equity Center. Dr. Eakins is also the host of The Art of Advocacy Livestream and the Leading Equity Podcast. Furthermore, Dr. Eakins is the author of Leading Equity: Becoming an Advocate for All Students. With over 15 years in education, he has served as a teacher, school principal, adjunct professor, and Director of Special Education.
Sheldon Eakins is passionate about helping educators accomplish equitable practices in their schools. He has earned a B.S. degree in Social Science Education, an M.S. degree in Educational Leadership, and a Ph.D. in K-12 Education.
This episode is sponsored by Leading Equity Center - Leading Equity delivers an eye-opening and actionable discussion of how to transform a classroom or school into a more equitable place.
Buy The Minimalist Teacher book from ASCD+ISTE.
Follow on Instagram @PlanZEducation and @minimalist_ed_podcast.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
Welcome to the Minimalist Educator Podcast, a
podcast about paring down torefocus on the purpose and
priorities in our roles withco-hosts and co-authors of the
Minimalist Teacher Book, TammyMusialski-Borneman and Christine
Arnold.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
In this episode we speak to Dr Sheldon Eakins about
his work in equity in education.
We discuss what commonly comesto the fore in his work with
schools and some strategies forus to all move forward in our
journey towards equity.
Sheldon Eakins, phd, is thefounder of the Leading Equity
Centre.
Dr Eakins is also the host ofthe Art of Advocacy live stream
(00:57):
and the Leading Equity podcast.
Furthermore, dr Eakins is theauthor of Leading Equity
Becoming an Advocate for AllStudents.
With over 15 years in education, he has served as a teacher,
school principal, adjunctprofessor and director of
special education.
Sheldon Eakins is passionateabout helping educators
accomplish equitable practicesin their schools.
(01:18):
He has earned a BS degree insocial science education and an
MS degree in educationalleadership and a PhD in K-12
education.
Bs degree in social scienceeducation and an MS degree in
educational leadership and a PhDin K-12 education.
Speaker 3 (01:30):
Welcome to today's episode of the Minimalist
Educator Podcast.
Today, Christine and I arelooking forward to talking to Dr
Sheldon Eakins.
Welcome to the show, Sheldon.
Speaker 4 (01:43):
Hey, thank you so much for having me my pleasure.
Speaker 3 (01:46):
Sheldon does work with his company called the
Leading Equity Center, and sowe're excited to talk to you
today about all things equity,because we know how important
that is to our schools, ourorganizations, and working with
people, because that's theindustry that we're in.
So can you tell us a little bitabout how equity work became
(02:10):
important to you?
Speaker 4 (02:12):
You know it's.
One could argue it's been alifelong journey.
But I guess maybe when I becamemore intentional with the work
is, you know, I, I was living inidaho, so I recently relocated
to phoenix, arizona, likerecently, like april, yeah, yeah
(02:33):
, definitely hot.
Uh, it's crazy because Istarted off wearing suits every
day and all the locals was like,okay, you play around with them
suits every day.
And, sure enough, I'm kind oflike reducing it down to just
shirt and tie and as it'sgetting hotter, I might be down
to just polo shirts because it'sit's hot, it's definitely hot.
(02:55):
Um, so, but, but I like, I likeit here.
Um, but before moving to phoenix, I was in idaho and I lived in
Idaho for seven, eight years,and I mean, being a black man
living in Idaho, I mean I could,I could tell you some stories,
and so I think that's when Ikind of got a little bit more
intentional.
I started my podcast about fiveyears ago.
(03:17):
It's just because I I wastrying to figure out how to
navigate life as an educator inthis space, and not only me, but
just like my teachers and staffand students, my own children
were Texas, like I knew exactlywho didn't like me and and where
(03:47):
not to go versus moving here.
It was like a lot of undercoverstuff, and so it was just like
it wouldn't be until later on.
I was like wait a second.
What did they just say to me?
And it was like, oh man, it'stoo late, like I didn't know how
to, like I should have saidsomething then, but I didn't
know what to say or how torespond, because I always assume
that people have the bestintentions and so, but I didn't
(04:07):
know how to address it without,like, being able to be able to
have those kind of conversations.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
So that's, I would say, about five years ago, when
I started the show, is when Ibecame more intentional, but
arguably it's a lifelong journeyarguably it's a lifelong
journey, and so, through thiswork that you've been doing with
organizations and schools, arethere some common themes, some
common topics, some common areasthat keep coming up over and
(04:34):
over again, that seem to be atthe forefront of what the work
needs to be.
Speaker 4 (04:40):
So I would say this yes, yes.
So I would say that I tend togo into predominantly white
schools, and when I saypredominantly white schools, I'm
talking about staffing, ethnicraces and things like that type
of representation within theirschool setting.
But often I mean I mean, if welook nationally, at least in the
(05:09):
United States, you know we're80, I want to say it's like 83%
white as far as educators go.
And it's not necessarily likeI'm here to discuss it in that
perspective, it's just more.
We have teachers that are likelook, I don't look like the kids
that I'm serving.
I want to help them, I want tobe as best as I can.
What tips can you give me?
(05:29):
And so that has been the, Iguess, the overarching thing why
people tend to bring me in.
And then, on the other end,sometimes I'll have individuals
that will bring me in becausethey think they don't have any
challenges.
Oh, you know that equity stuff.
You know that's, that'snational, new, that's not our
(05:50):
school, that's not here.
Uh, those are other schools,little stuff you see on the news
, like we don't do those kindsof things.
Our kids feel very valued andappreciated, you know they're
thriving here.
And so I like to do an audit, uh, which is an assessment and
just a strategy.
Okay, I hear what you're saying.
Well, let's just take a look,let's look at what the data says
, and we kind of go throughdifferent areas like the mission
(06:11):
statement.
What does your missionstatement look like?
What does your professionaldevelopment look like, what does
your leadership look like, whatis your staff and what is your
communication All thesedifferent areas that we touch on
.
And so there's another approachthat I come with, I guess,
strategies or support in thatdirection.
So we do the assessment and thenwe look at it, we break it down
and say what are some thingsthat we could do tomorrow, what
(06:32):
are some things we could do sixmonths, and then what are some
things that might be a one tothree year type of strategy, but
at least we're making someprogress.
So there's some folks thatbelieve that we don't have
challenges and there's somefolks that know we have
challenges and they're justlooking for sometimes just
talking points.
Sometimes people just reach outand they just say we don't know
what to say, what?
I'm not a Black person, so Idon't know.
(06:53):
I don't feel right approachingit or addressing it, so maybe I
just pretend like I didn't hearit, but I see.
You know there's a lot ofdifferent layers there, but the
(07:14):
first thing is you need to bewilling to want to provide
support or resources for yourstudents because ultimately, we
want them to thrive.
Speaker 3 (07:25):
I really wish that I had known you when I taught in
New York City, because I taughtin public school and I was
teaching in a school in Harlemand you know, like young,
younger white woman I'm stillyoung, obviously, but working in
a school where all the none ofthe kids looked like me, right,
(07:45):
like.
So it was my first experienceworking in a school where it was
mostly black and brown kids andwe did have some a very mixed
staff, which was really great tobe able to work with a mixed
staff, because that was notwhere I was coming from, and so
I learned a lot in that.
But I think having an outsidesource to be able to help you
(08:10):
identify the inequities in whatyou think is an equitable
environment for your kids is sohelpful.
So, like your audit that youmentioned is such a great tool
to be able to use because youknow when you're in your bubble
right, you think, yeah, we'redoing this, like this is how
we're supporting each other andour kids and whatever.
Bubble right, you think, yeah,we're doing this, like this is
how we're supporting each otherand our kids and whatever.
(08:31):
But then that outsideperspective is so powerful
because you don't see a lot ofthe things when you're living in
your own house, and so, yes, Ireally wish I knew then, because
it would have been so great tohave someone come in and just
help us with some of thosethings, those very things that
you just mentioned.
So you talked about using anaudit as a tool to help people
kind of see and go through whatthey have and what's not in
(08:55):
place yet.
Are there some other structuresthat you propose to schools to
put in place right away whereyou're like, okay, this is a
really glaring issue.
Speaker 4 (09:05):
Here's a thing to just think about, because this
could be the thing that changesthat well, I've been shifting a
lot of my conversations, andeven workshops and trainings, to
just overarching, creating asense of belonging.
I found that, you know, withthe you know, I would say,
(09:25):
probably since george floyd um,you've, you've there was a big
push for anti-racist work andanti-bias work.
Then critical race theorystarted to come about on the
other end, and just so muchpolitical stuff these days, and
semantics is where a lot ofthings boil down to.
And I said, okay, as a personwho's known for doing diversity,
(09:48):
equity, inclusion work,belonging work.
What are some areas that we canfind?
Maybe some common ground?
Because, at the end of the day,we want our kids to thrive
right, I think we can all agreeon that, whether you know
whatever terminology I utilize.
So, for me, I started looking atcreating a sense of belonging.
I think, if we can agree that,at the end of the day, in order
(10:10):
for students to succeed inacademic work, we also want to
make sure that they feel as ifthey belong, feel as if they're
included within the schoolcommunity, as if they're
accepted and supported, I thinkwe can all agree on that, and so
that is the approach that Ioften take is let's boil it down
to what will it take for thisstudent?
(10:32):
Let's just take your averagestudent.
Let's take a student that'smaybe not as popular.
Let's take a student that tendsto be pretty quiet or maybe a
little off to themselves, typeof thing.
What would it take for them tofeel accepted, supported,
included?
And so those are the strategiesthat I tend to use, and
sometimes that's conversationson what tokenism is.
(10:53):
What does exclusion look like?
What are microaggressions?
What are implicit biases thatwe might hold?
What are some things that we'redoing unintentionally Because,
again, we're assuming bestintentions from our staff or
those who are in front of kids,where we're assuming they just
oblivious, they've grown up in aworld, they've grown up in a
city or town where they justdidn't have to consider a lot of
(11:14):
things, and so it's just not attheir forefront.
However, how do I engage themin a way that they can recognize
oh shoot, I didn't even thinkabout it from this perspective.
So that's the typical approachthat I take.
Sure, I have online courses andof course, I have my current
book, which is Lean EquityBecoming an Advocate for All
Students, and those are alsoextra areas for support.
(11:36):
But I just think, if we're justlooking at it from a sense of
belonging standpoint.
We start there.
That can lead to so many morediscussions.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
Yeah, that sounds really great.
I love that thinking, but it'smaking me wonder about the role
of student voice in this work.
So you know we're talking a lotabout what the teachers can do,
what we can do at a systemiclevel.
So what role and how can weengage and include the student
voice in all of this?
Speaker 4 (12:09):
a good question because, at the end of the day,
I can give all the PDs all theprofessional development support
for my staff, our staff,whoever it is.
It doesn't necessarily meanthat the student's experience is
going to change because, at theend of the day, kids are smart
enough to know not to tease youin front of adults.
They're smart enough to knownot to say this, say that or do
this or do that in front ofadults.
So, yeah, I did PD and, okay,I've been trained on how to
(12:31):
respond.
When I see a kid get bullied,okay, I saw it, so now I know
how to deal with it.
Right, but then what happensagain?
On the playground, lunchroom,in the hallways and bathrooms
where stuff is taking place, andthere's no, nobody around.
How does a student feelempowered to respond and stand
up for themselves withoutgetting into a fight and getting
(12:54):
expelled or suspended, whateverthat repercussion looks like?
Okay, depending on whateverschool setting.
And so that is another piecethat I've discovered over the
years.
It's like you know what?
Yes, you spend a lot of timewith adults, but the kids are
the ones that are impacted themost with a lot of the stuff
that you're doing.
You need to work with them too.
So I've been doing a lot ofsupport for my students.
(13:16):
For that voice that youmentioned, I have a whole area
of we call it the advocacy room,where we work with basically
small affinity groups withstudents, maybe student
leadership, maybe it'sindividuals within your high
school, middle school, that arelooking for support for, okay, a
student just called me a racialslur.
(13:38):
How do I respond?
So we take them through a lotof scenarios.
Okay, kid said this to you.
What do you do?
How do you respond?
How do you defend yourself?
What is it called?
You know, we give themterminology.
This is what a microaggressionis.
This is what social justicesupport.
This is like various terms thatyou should learn, know about at
15, 16 years old.
And here's some strategies orscenarios, some ways that you
(14:02):
can stand up for yourself in arespectful manner that's not
going to get you in trouble.
And then here's some ways thatyou can bring awareness to your
administrator or your teachers.
And so we asked them in thebeginning of our session.
We say, hey, if money wasn't anissue, resources wasn't an
issue, what would make yourschool experience better?
(14:23):
What would it take?
And so they might list out offour or five things and we
choose one or two of thosethings and say, ok, so now these
are two areas that you saidwould be better for you for
growth.
How does, how do we presentthis to an administrator so that
it's not just us complainingbut we're also providing
solutions to them as well?
(14:44):
So we help them put a wholePowerPoint presentation.
Here's the area of challengesthat we're facing.
Here's some possible strategiesto support us to make it better
.
Here we go, and so they presentthat to their administrators.
That's that voice that we'retalking about.
Sometimes I hear people saystuff like you know, we want to
give kids voice.
I don't believe in giving kidsvoice.
(15:05):
They have a voice already.
We want to make sure that we'relistening to them and not
listening to them on our owntime.
You know, come see me next week.
We'll provide some space foryou for this assembly, or we'll
do this, we'll do it.
No, they're coming to you rightnow.
What can we do about it?
At this moment, at least sayyou know what I hear you.
Thank you for taking this time.
(15:27):
I need a little time to debriefor think about this.
Can I get back to you?
But at least I heard them inthat moment and not say well,
come see me during my officehours between nine and five next
week.
Speaker 3 (15:39):
I love that Christina and I are such big I'm going to
say supporters, but that's notquite the right word but we've
talked a lot and done a lot ofwork around like student agency
and making sure kids have justany opportunity in the classroom
, outside the classroom, toshare their thinking, their
voice, their ideas and obviouslyall of this work is about them.
(16:05):
And we just sometimes forgetthat we overlook it, them, and
we just sometimes forget that weoverlook it.
And so when, when we're in thiskind of work because it is very
it's a big thing to work on andbigger in some areas than
others so what are some thingsthat even in schools that are
really strong in their equitypractices that are overlooked,
(16:29):
like and I kind of mentionedthis before like when you're in
your own little bubble you don'tsee things.
But what are some things thatpeople either overlook as oh, I
didn't realize that was anequity thing or like are a
challenge for them to address?
Speaker 4 (16:46):
I think, like what we okay, I would start with what
are some quote unquotetraditional practices, so like a
lot of stuff will come down toheritage or this is what we've
always done and so it'soverlooked.
In that sense, it's like nowI'm asking you to change it or
look at it from a different lens.
(17:08):
So, while you might enjoy thisactivity, you might enjoy this
event or this lesson that you doevery year and it goes well
every year, but you've neverconsidered or thought about how
this might impact certain groupsof people in a negative
standpoint.
And I'll give you an examplewhen my daughter was in the
(17:28):
third grade, she had an amazingteacher, great teacher.
He did an activity where it wasbasically kind of like your
family tree type of thing youknow, tell us where your family
comes from and so it waspresented in a tell us or
(17:49):
celebrate how you became part ofthe United States.
So trace your lineage, yourancestry, how you became a part
of the US, and they had a wholeproject.
Now he does this every year.
What he didn't consider ispeople like me when it comes to
how we became part of the UnitedStates.
(18:11):
That's not necessarily a storythat, first of all, that I know
about, like I don't know, likeI've done.
My ancestry I've known fromWest Africa, but my people were
forcibly brought over here.
Not necessarily a celebrationthat I want to have, um, and so
my daughter comes home.
She's like daddy I, this is theproject, and I don't really
know how I feel about this.
(18:31):
And she's in the third grade,which is like I don't really
know how I feel about this, andI'm like, yeah, let's go to the
school and let's talk to theteacher.
What can we work out?
I went to the school, went tothe teacher and I said I feel
like this is a great activity.
I know that you're.
You mean.
Well, however, this is going toimpact a lot of folks that
aren't from European descent andI said, well, you might have
(18:54):
students that are excited toshare their.
You know, my family came infrom England and they're
escaping religious freedom orit's taxation, representation,
whatever right.
Their background story wasthat's great for them and they
probably have access to thatinformation.
They can ask somebody or theycan trace it.
(19:14):
However, my folks, we don'thave that same experience, we
don't share that same sentiment,and I said, in addition to me
and any other Black student thatyou might have.
There's other students, forexample, that are undocumented
in the United States, and soagain celebrating how they
became members or citizens ofthe United States, and so again
celebrating how they becamemembers or citizens of the
United States.
(19:34):
Blah, blah, blah.
They might have had to do someillegal activities in order to
get here, okay.
Lastly, there's going to beindividuals that were already
here.
Native Americans are in yourclassroom.
So now we're doing thisassignment that you love to do
every single year, but youdidn't think about how this
might impact certain groups ofpeople who have different
(19:58):
experiences than what the over.
So you might have 30 kids inyour classroom.
You might have two NativeAmerican kids, one black my
daughter's the only black girlin her class and you might have
some undocumented students andwe're talking maybe, let's say,
five kids that are going to feelas if they don't belong in this
setting.
I mean, just imagine beingNative American and you got to
(20:20):
watch all your peers celebratehow they took your land.
Yeah, my, my family's fourthgeneration.
Idahoan, my family.
Yeah, that was my area,reservation Idahoan.
Yeah, that was my area, thatwas my family's area.
We live on a reservation now.
So these are things that wedon't think about.
(20:41):
Like you said, always done it.
We do it every year.
This is our annual event, thisis our celebration, this is our
mascot.
These are things that we do notthinking about it because it's
always been done.
And when I bring a lot of thesekinds of things to people's
attention, they're like oh mygoodness, I never thought about
it that way and it's fine,unintentional, because you
(21:03):
didn't have to.
You didn't have like you justlived in a world where it
doesn't make you a bad person,and then you just never been
privy to it.
But now'm bringing it to yourattention.
What are you going to do?
I think maya angelo sayssomething like you know, when
you know better, do better.
Because I legit will dosessions.
I talk about racial slurs andI'll talk about some of the
stuff that we say all the timethat has, uh, I guess, racist
(21:28):
origins, such as terms such as,uh, bottom of the totem pole or
or off the you know, thisperson's gone off the
reservation, or this.
You know, let's have a littlepowwow and let's get together
and talk about it.
These are things that we sayall the time Very common
language, but who are we talkingabout in a lot like who's's
(21:49):
referenced.
Where are these terms comingfrom?
So I'll explain a lot of stuffwhere stuff comes from and the
origins, and these are commonlanguage and I legitimately have
had assistant principals oreven principals that say stuff
like well, other people probablydon't know about these terms,
so is it okay if I still use it?
I'm like you're a principal, Ijust told you this is wrong.
(22:12):
And here's where thesestatements come from.
Why would you still want to uselike, why would you still want
to say it?
Like, if you know better, dobetter.
So it's these little things,and if I had time, I could tell
you so many different thingsthat we don't necessarily think
about that.
We just have the bestintentions.
However, once it's brought toyour attention, what are you
(22:33):
going to do with thatinformation?
Are you going to keep doing itall because no one else will
know about it, or are you goingto take this as an opportunity
to say you know what?
I just heard my peers say that.
I just heard my partner say it.
I just heard a colleague saythis where, hey, you probably
didn't know anything about it,but you know where that term
really came from and the impactit might have on certain groups
of people.
Speaker 3 (22:53):
Sheldon, we could talk to you for, like you know,
a few hours, but that are.
We try to keep our episodesabout half an hour long and
we're getting to that point.
So at the end of each episode,we do ask our guests for we call
it a pare down pointer.
We do ask our guests for wecall it a pare down pointer, and
that's so we've been talking.
You know, big things likeequity is a big, a big thing
(23:16):
that we're working on globally.
So if you are going to givesomebody a pare down pointer to
just say like if you're going totake your first step into this
work, here's the thing to do.
Speaker 4 (23:33):
Yeah, I always say start with yourself in order to
recognize that there needs to bechanges made.
Need to recognize that thereneeds to be changes made.
Um, start with your inner work.
Um, I, I, I.
Anytime I do a series ofworkshops and trainings, I
typically try to start withimplicit bias work.
Um, I do not believe that youcan end bias.
I'm a full-time consultant.
(23:55):
I do this work all the time.
Guess what?
I have bias right.
So it doesn't make us bad people, it's just, it's part of human
nature.
That's who we are.
But we need to at least try torecognize those things.
And that's the first place tostart is recognizing what bias
do I hold?
And so what are some areas forgrowth?
There's always room for growth.
I don't care how long I mean.
(24:16):
Again, as an example myself, Ido this all the time.
I can always learn more because, at the end of the day, there's
things that I will neverexperience.
I will not know what it's liketo feel gender discrimination or
or uh, I don't worry aboutwalking down the street in dark
or getting ready for the cameraand I have to put makeup on in
order to be camera ready.
(24:36):
I don't have to think aboutthose types of things.
So what biases do I hold as amale, maybe as an educated male,
english as my first language?
What are some areas that I amalready good, that I don't
necessarily have to think about?
But if I'm not open to theseconversations, if I'm just being
defensive and I'm not preparedto have these kind of
(24:58):
conversations, then what good isthat going to do, not just for
myself and my own personalgrowth and professional growth,
but also for the students thatI'm serving?
Speaker 3 (25:07):
Thanks so much for that, sheldon, and thank you for
your time.
It was a pleasure talking toyou today.
Speaker 4 (25:13):
My pleasure.
Thank you for having me on.
Speaker 2 (25:17):
This episode was brought to you by the Leading
Equity Center.
Leading Equity delivers aneye-opening and actionable
discussion of how to transform aclassroom or school into a more
equitable place school into amore equitable place.
Speaker 1 (25:35):
Be sure to join Tammy and Christine and guests for
more episodes of the MinimalistEducator podcast.
They would love to hear aboutyour journey with minimalism.
Connect with them at PlanZPLSon Twitter or Instagram.
The music for the podcast hasbeen written and performed by
Gaia Moretti.
Thank you.
Welcome to the Minimalist Educator Podcast, a
podcast about paring down torefocus on the purpose and
priorities in our roles withco-hosts and co-authors of the
Minimalist Teacher Book, TammyMusialski-Borneman and Christine
Arnold.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
In this episode we speak to Dr Sheldon Eakins about
his work in equity in education.
We discuss what commonly comesto the fore in his work with
schools and some strategies forus to all move forward in our
journey towards equity.
Sheldon Eakins, phd, is thefounder of the Leading Equity
Centre.
Dr Eakins is also the host ofthe Art of Advocacy live stream
(00:57):
and the Leading Equity podcast.
Furthermore, dr Eakins is theauthor of Leading Equity
Becoming an Advocate for AllStudents.
With over 15 years in education, he has served as a teacher,
school principal, adjunctprofessor and director of
special education.
Sheldon Eakins is passionateabout helping educators
accomplish equitable practicesin their schools.
(01:18):
He has earned a BS degree insocial science education and an
MS degree in educationalleadership and a PhD in K-12
education.
Bs degree in social scienceeducation and an MS degree in
educational leadership and a PhDin K-12 education.
Speaker 3 (01:30):
Welcome to today's episode of the Minimalist
Educator Podcast.
Today, Christine and I arelooking forward to talking to Dr
Sheldon Eakins.
Welcome to the show, Sheldon.
Speaker 4 (01:43):
Hey, thank you so much for having me my pleasure.
Speaker 3 (01:46):
Sheldon does work with his company called the
Leading Equity Center, and sowe're excited to talk to you
today about all things equity,because we know how important
that is to our schools, ourorganizations, and working with
people, because that's theindustry that we're in.
So can you tell us a little bitabout how equity work became
(02:10):
important to you?
Speaker 4 (02:12):
You know it's.
One could argue it's been alifelong journey.
But I guess maybe when I becamemore intentional with the work
is, you know, I, I was living inidaho, so I recently relocated
to phoenix, arizona, likerecently, like april, yeah, yeah
(02:33):
, definitely hot.
Uh, it's crazy because Istarted off wearing suits every
day and all the locals was like,okay, you play around with them
suits every day.
And, sure enough, I'm kind oflike reducing it down to just
shirt and tie and as it'sgetting hotter, I might be down
to just polo shirts because it'sit's hot, it's definitely hot.
(02:55):
Um, so, but, but I like, I likeit here.
Um, but before moving to phoenix, I was in idaho and I lived in
Idaho for seven, eight years,and I mean, being a black man
living in Idaho, I mean I could,I could tell you some stories,
and so I think that's when Ikind of got a little bit more
intentional.
I started my podcast about fiveyears ago.
(03:17):
It's just because I I wastrying to figure out how to
navigate life as an educator inthis space, and not only me, but
just like my teachers and staffand students, my own children
were Texas, like I knew exactlywho didn't like me and and where
(03:47):
not to go versus moving here.
It was like a lot of undercoverstuff, and so it was just like
it wouldn't be until later on.
I was like wait a second.
What did they just say to me?
And it was like, oh man, it'stoo late, like I didn't know how
to, like I should have saidsomething then, but I didn't
know what to say or how torespond, because I always assume
that people have the bestintentions and so, but I didn't
(04:07):
know how to address it without,like, being able to be able to
have those kind of conversations.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
So that's, I would say, about five years ago, when
I started the show, is when Ibecame more intentional, but
arguably it's a lifelong journeyarguably it's a lifelong
journey, and so, through thiswork that you've been doing with
organizations and schools, arethere some common themes, some
common topics, some common areasthat keep coming up over and
(04:34):
over again, that seem to be atthe forefront of what the work
needs to be.
Speaker 4 (04:40):
So I would say this yes, yes.
So I would say that I tend togo into predominantly white
schools, and when I saypredominantly white schools, I'm
talking about staffing, ethnicraces and things like that type
of representation within theirschool setting.
But often I mean I mean, if welook nationally, at least in the
(05:09):
United States, you know we're80, I want to say it's like 83%
white as far as educators go.
And it's not necessarily likeI'm here to discuss it in that
perspective, it's just more.
We have teachers that are likelook, I don't look like the kids
that I'm serving.
I want to help them, I want tobe as best as I can.
What tips can you give me?
(05:29):
And so that has been the, Iguess, the overarching thing why
people tend to bring me in.
And then, on the other end,sometimes I'll have individuals
that will bring me in becausethey think they don't have any
challenges.
Oh, you know that equity stuff.
You know that's, that'snational, new, that's not our
(05:50):
school, that's not here.
Uh, those are other schools,little stuff you see on the news
, like we don't do those kindsof things.
Our kids feel very valued andappreciated, you know they're
thriving here.
And so I like to do an audit, uh, which is an assessment and
just a strategy.
Okay, I hear what you're saying.
Well, let's just take a look,let's look at what the data says
, and we kind of go throughdifferent areas like the mission
(06:11):
statement.
What does your missionstatement look like?
What does your professionaldevelopment look like, what does
your leadership look like, whatis your staff and what is your
communication All thesedifferent areas that we touch on
.
And so there's another approachthat I come with, I guess,
strategies or support in thatdirection.
So we do the assessment and thenwe look at it, we break it down
and say what are some thingsthat we could do tomorrow, what
(06:32):
are some things we could do sixmonths, and then what are some
things that might be a one tothree year type of strategy, but
at least we're making someprogress.
So there's some folks thatbelieve that we don't have
challenges and there's somefolks that know we have
challenges and they're justlooking for sometimes just
talking points.
Sometimes people just reach outand they just say we don't know
what to say, what?
I'm not a Black person, so Idon't know.
(06:53):
I don't feel right approachingit or addressing it, so maybe I
just pretend like I didn't hearit, but I see.
You know there's a lot ofdifferent layers there, but the
(07:14):
first thing is you need to bewilling to want to provide
support or resources for yourstudents because ultimately, we
want them to thrive.
Speaker 3 (07:25):
I really wish that I had known you when I taught in
New York City, because I taughtin public school and I was
teaching in a school in Harlemand you know, like young,
younger white woman I'm stillyoung, obviously, but working in
a school where all the none ofthe kids looked like me, right,
(07:45):
like.
So it was my first experienceworking in a school where it was
mostly black and brown kids andwe did have some a very mixed
staff, which was really great tobe able to work with a mixed
staff, because that was notwhere I was coming from, and so
I learned a lot in that.
But I think having an outsidesource to be able to help you
(08:10):
identify the inequities in whatyou think is an equitable
environment for your kids is sohelpful.
So, like your audit that youmentioned is such a great tool
to be able to use because youknow when you're in your bubble
right, you think, yeah, we'redoing this, like this is how
we're supporting each other andour kids and whatever.
Bubble right, you think, yeah,we're doing this, like this is
how we're supporting each otherand our kids and whatever.
(08:31):
But then that outsideperspective is so powerful
because you don't see a lot ofthe things when you're living in
your own house, and so, yes, Ireally wish I knew then, because
it would have been so great tohave someone come in and just
help us with some of thosethings, those very things that
you just mentioned.
So you talked about using anaudit as a tool to help people
kind of see and go through whatthey have and what's not in
(08:55):
place yet.
Are there some other structuresthat you propose to schools to
put in place right away whereyou're like, okay, this is a
really glaring issue.
Speaker 4 (09:05):
Here's a thing to just think about, because this
could be the thing that changesthat well, I've been shifting a
lot of my conversations, andeven workshops and trainings, to
just overarching, creating asense of belonging.
I found that, you know, withthe you know, I would say,
(09:25):
probably since george floyd um,you've, you've there was a big
push for anti-racist work andanti-bias work.
Then critical race theorystarted to come about on the
other end, and just so muchpolitical stuff these days, and
semantics is where a lot ofthings boil down to.
And I said, okay, as a personwho's known for doing diversity,
(09:48):
equity, inclusion work,belonging work.
What are some areas that we canfind?
Maybe some common ground?
Because, at the end of the day,we want our kids to thrive
right, I think we can all agreeon that, whether you know
whatever terminology I utilize.
So, for me, I started looking atcreating a sense of belonging.
I think, if we can agree that,at the end of the day, in order
(10:10):
for students to succeed inacademic work, we also want to
make sure that they feel as ifthey belong, feel as if they're
included within the schoolcommunity, as if they're
accepted and supported, I thinkwe can all agree on that, and so
that is the approach that Ioften take is let's boil it down
to what will it take for thisstudent?
(10:32):
Let's just take your averagestudent.
Let's take a student that'smaybe not as popular.
Let's take a student that tendsto be pretty quiet or maybe a
little off to themselves, typeof thing.
What would it take for them tofeel accepted, supported,
included?
And so those are the strategiesthat I tend to use, and
sometimes that's conversationson what tokenism is.
(10:53):
What does exclusion look like?
What are microaggressions?
What are implicit biases thatwe might hold?
What are some things that we'redoing unintentionally Because,
again, we're assuming bestintentions from our staff or
those who are in front of kids,where we're assuming they just
oblivious, they've grown up in aworld, they've grown up in a
city or town where they justdidn't have to consider a lot of
(11:14):
things, and so it's just not attheir forefront.
However, how do I engage themin a way that they can recognize
oh shoot, I didn't even thinkabout it from this perspective.
So that's the typical approachthat I take.
Sure, I have online courses andof course, I have my current
book, which is Lean EquityBecoming an Advocate for All
Students, and those are alsoextra areas for support.
(11:36):
But I just think, if we're justlooking at it from a sense of
belonging standpoint.
We start there.
That can lead to so many morediscussions.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
Yeah, that sounds really great.
I love that thinking, but it'smaking me wonder about the role
of student voice in this work.
So you know we're talking a lotabout what the teachers can do,
what we can do at a systemiclevel.
So what role and how can weengage and include the student
voice in all of this?
Speaker 4 (12:09):
a good question because, at the end of the day,
I can give all the PDs all theprofessional development support
for my staff, our staff,whoever it is.
It doesn't necessarily meanthat the student's experience is
going to change because, at theend of the day, kids are smart
enough to know not to tease youin front of adults.
They're smart enough to knownot to say this, say that or do
this or do that in front ofadults.
So, yeah, I did PD and, okay,I've been trained on how to
(12:31):
respond.
When I see a kid get bullied,okay, I saw it, so now I know
how to deal with it.
Right, but then what happensagain?
On the playground, lunchroom,in the hallways and bathrooms
where stuff is taking place, andthere's no, nobody around.
How does a student feelempowered to respond and stand
up for themselves withoutgetting into a fight and getting
(12:54):
expelled or suspended, whateverthat repercussion looks like?
Okay, depending on whateverschool setting.
And so that is another piecethat I've discovered over the
years.
It's like you know what?
Yes, you spend a lot of timewith adults, but the kids are
the ones that are impacted themost with a lot of the stuff
that you're doing.
You need to work with them too.
So I've been doing a lot ofsupport for my students.
(13:16):
For that voice that youmentioned, I have a whole area
of we call it the advocacy room,where we work with basically
small affinity groups withstudents, maybe student
leadership, maybe it'sindividuals within your high
school, middle school, that arelooking for support for, okay, a
student just called me a racialslur.
(13:38):
How do I respond?
So we take them through a lotof scenarios.
Okay, kid said this to you.
What do you do?
How do you respond?
How do you defend yourself?
What is it called?
You know, we give themterminology.
This is what a microaggressionis.
This is what social justicesupport.
This is like various terms thatyou should learn, know about at
15, 16 years old.
And here's some strategies orscenarios, some ways that you
(14:02):
can stand up for yourself in arespectful manner that's not
going to get you in trouble.
And then here's some ways thatyou can bring awareness to your
administrator or your teachers.
And so we asked them in thebeginning of our session.
We say, hey, if money wasn't anissue, resources wasn't an
issue, what would make yourschool experience better?
(14:23):
What would it take?
And so they might list out offour or five things and we
choose one or two of thosethings and say, ok, so now these
are two areas that you saidwould be better for you for
growth.
How does, how do we presentthis to an administrator so that
it's not just us complainingbut we're also providing
solutions to them as well?
(14:44):
So we help them put a wholePowerPoint presentation.
Here's the area of challengesthat we're facing.
Here's some possible strategiesto support us to make it better
.
Here we go, and so they presentthat to their administrators.
That's that voice that we'retalking about.
Sometimes I hear people saystuff like you know, we want to
give kids voice.
I don't believe in giving kidsvoice.
(15:05):
They have a voice already.
We want to make sure that we'relistening to them and not
listening to them on our owntime.
You know, come see me next week.
We'll provide some space foryou for this assembly, or we'll
do this, we'll do it.
No, they're coming to you rightnow.
What can we do about it?
At this moment, at least sayyou know what I hear you.
Thank you for taking this time.
(15:27):
I need a little time to debriefor think about this.
Can I get back to you?
But at least I heard them inthat moment and not say well,
come see me during my officehours between nine and five next
week.
Speaker 3 (15:39):
I love that Christina and I are such big I'm going to
say supporters, but that's notquite the right word but we've
talked a lot and done a lot ofwork around like student agency
and making sure kids have justany opportunity in the classroom
, outside the classroom, toshare their thinking, their
voice, their ideas and obviouslyall of this work is about them.
(16:05):
And we just sometimes forgetthat we overlook it, them, and
we just sometimes forget that weoverlook it.
And so when, when we're in thiskind of work because it is very
it's a big thing to work on andbigger in some areas than
others so what are some thingsthat even in schools that are
really strong in their equitypractices that are overlooked,
(16:29):
like and I kind of mentionedthis before like when you're in
your own little bubble you don'tsee things.
But what are some things thatpeople either overlook as oh, I
didn't realize that was anequity thing or like are a
challenge for them to address?
Speaker 4 (16:46):
I think, like what we okay, I would start with what
are some quote unquotetraditional practices, so like a
lot of stuff will come down toheritage or this is what we've
always done and so it'soverlooked.
In that sense, it's like nowI'm asking you to change it or
look at it from a different lens.
(17:08):
So, while you might enjoy thisactivity, you might enjoy this
event or this lesson that you doevery year and it goes well
every year, but you've neverconsidered or thought about how
this might impact certain groupsof people in a negative
standpoint.
And I'll give you an examplewhen my daughter was in the
(17:28):
third grade, she had an amazingteacher, great teacher.
He did an activity where it wasbasically kind of like your
family tree type of thing youknow, tell us where your family
comes from and so it waspresented in a tell us or
(17:49):
celebrate how you became part ofthe United States.
So trace your lineage, yourancestry, how you became a part
of the US, and they had a wholeproject.
Now he does this every year.
What he didn't consider ispeople like me when it comes to
how we became part of the UnitedStates.
(18:11):
That's not necessarily a storythat, first of all, that I know
about, like I don't know, likeI've done.
My ancestry I've known fromWest Africa, but my people were
forcibly brought over here.
Not necessarily a celebrationthat I want to have, um, and so
my daughter comes home.
She's like daddy I, this is theproject, and I don't really
know how I feel about this.
(18:31):
And she's in the third grade,which is like I don't really
know how I feel about this, andI'm like, yeah, let's go to the
school and let's talk to theteacher.
What can we work out?
I went to the school, went tothe teacher and I said I feel
like this is a great activity.
I know that you're.
You mean.
Well, however, this is going toimpact a lot of folks that
aren't from European descent andI said, well, you might have
(18:54):
students that are excited toshare their.
You know, my family came infrom England and they're
escaping religious freedom orit's taxation, representation,
whatever right.
Their background story wasthat's great for them and they
probably have access to thatinformation.
They can ask somebody or theycan trace it.
(19:14):
However, my folks, we don'thave that same experience, we
don't share that same sentiment,and I said, in addition to me
and any other Black student thatyou might have.
There's other students, forexample, that are undocumented
in the United States, and soagain celebrating how they
became members or citizens ofthe United States, and so again
celebrating how they becamemembers or citizens of the
United States.
(19:34):
Blah, blah, blah.
They might have had to do someillegal activities in order to
get here, okay.
Lastly, there's going to beindividuals that were already
here.
Native Americans are in yourclassroom.
So now we're doing thisassignment that you love to do
every single year, but youdidn't think about how this
might impact certain groups ofpeople who have different
(19:58):
experiences than what the over.
So you might have 30 kids inyour classroom.
You might have two NativeAmerican kids, one black my
daughter's the only black girlin her class and you might have
some undocumented students andwe're talking maybe, let's say,
five kids that are going to feelas if they don't belong in this
setting.
I mean, just imagine beingNative American and you got to
(20:20):
watch all your peers celebratehow they took your land.
Yeah, my, my family's fourthgeneration.
Idahoan, my family.
Yeah, that was my area,reservation Idahoan.
Yeah, that was my area, thatwas my family's area.
We live on a reservation now.
So these are things that wedon't think about.
(20:41):
Like you said, always done it.
We do it every year.
This is our annual event, thisis our celebration, this is our
mascot.
These are things that we do notthinking about it because it's
always been done.
And when I bring a lot of thesekinds of things to people's
attention, they're like oh mygoodness, I never thought about
it that way and it's fine,unintentional, because you
(21:03):
didn't have to.
You didn't have like you justlived in a world where it
doesn't make you a bad person,and then you just never been
privy to it.
But now'm bringing it to yourattention.
What are you going to do?
I think maya angelo sayssomething like you know, when
you know better, do better.
Because I legit will dosessions.
I talk about racial slurs andI'll talk about some of the
stuff that we say all the timethat has, uh, I guess, racist
(21:28):
origins, such as terms such as,uh, bottom of the totem pole or
or off the you know, thisperson's gone off the
reservation, or this.
You know, let's have a littlepowwow and let's get together
and talk about it.
These are things that we sayall the time Very common
language, but who are we talkingabout in a lot like who's's
(21:49):
referenced.
Where are these terms comingfrom?
So I'll explain a lot of stuffwhere stuff comes from and the
origins, and these are commonlanguage and I legitimately have
had assistant principals oreven principals that say stuff
like well, other people probablydon't know about these terms,
so is it okay if I still use it?
I'm like you're a principal, Ijust told you this is wrong.
(22:12):
And here's where thesestatements come from.
Why would you still want to uselike, why would you still want
to say it?
Like, if you know better, dobetter.
So it's these little things,and if I had time, I could tell
you so many different thingsthat we don't necessarily think
about that.
We just have the bestintentions.
However, once it's brought toyour attention, what are you
(22:33):
going to do with thatinformation?
Are you going to keep doing itall because no one else will
know about it, or are you goingto take this as an opportunity
to say you know what?
I just heard my peers say that.
I just heard my partner say it.
I just heard a colleague saythis where, hey, you probably
didn't know anything about it,but you know where that term
really came from and the impactit might have on certain groups
of people.
Speaker 3 (22:53):
Sheldon, we could talk to you for, like you know,
a few hours, but that are.
We try to keep our episodesabout half an hour long and
we're getting to that point.
So at the end of each episode,we do ask our guests for we call
it a pare down pointer.
We do ask our guests for wecall it a pare down pointer, and
that's so we've been talking.
You know, big things likeequity is a big, a big thing
(23:16):
that we're working on globally.
So if you are going to givesomebody a pare down pointer to
just say like if you're going totake your first step into this
work, here's the thing to do.
Speaker 4 (23:33):
Yeah, I always say start with yourself in order to
recognize that there needs to bechanges made.
Need to recognize that thereneeds to be changes made.
Um, start with your inner work.
Um, I, I, I.
Anytime I do a series ofworkshops and trainings, I
typically try to start withimplicit bias work.
Um, I do not believe that youcan end bias.
I'm a full-time consultant.
(23:55):
I do this work all the time.
Guess what?
I have bias right.
So it doesn't make us bad people, it's just, it's part of human
nature.
That's who we are.
But we need to at least try torecognize those things.
And that's the first place tostart is recognizing what bias
do I hold?
And so what are some areas forgrowth?
There's always room for growth.
I don't care how long I mean.
(24:16):
Again, as an example myself, Ido this all the time.
I can always learn more because, at the end of the day, there's
things that I will neverexperience.
I will not know what it's liketo feel gender discrimination or
or uh, I don't worry aboutwalking down the street in dark
or getting ready for the cameraand I have to put makeup on in
order to be camera ready.
(24:36):
I don't have to think aboutthose types of things.
So what biases do I hold as amale, maybe as an educated male,
english as my first language?
What are some areas that I amalready good, that I don't
necessarily have to think about?
But if I'm not open to theseconversations, if I'm just being
defensive and I'm not preparedto have these kind of
(24:58):
conversations, then what good isthat going to do, not just for
myself and my own personalgrowth and professional growth,
but also for the students thatI'm serving?
Speaker 3 (25:07):
Thanks so much for that, sheldon, and thank you for
your time.
It was a pleasure talking toyou today.
Speaker 4 (25:13):
My pleasure.
Thank you for having me on.
Speaker 2 (25:17):
This episode was brought to you by the Leading
Equity Center.
Leading Equity delivers aneye-opening and actionable
discussion of how to transform aclassroom or school into a more
equitable place school into amore equitable place.
Speaker 1 (25:35):
Be sure to join Tammy and Christine and guests for
more episodes of the MinimalistEducator podcast.
They would love to hear aboutyour journey with minimalism.
Connect with them at PlanZPLSon Twitter or Instagram.
The music for the podcast hasbeen written and performed by
Gaia Moretti.
Thank you.
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