January 28, 2025 • 33 mins
Naomi Church, a passionate advocate for minimalist teaching strategies in math, joins us to unravel the complexities of modern math instruction. What if less really is more when it comes to teaching math? Discover how simplifying your approach can not only alleviate the overwhelming burden of an extensive curriculum but also transform the learning environment into one where engagement and strategic thinking flourish. From the Universal Design for Learning framework to fostering a classroom culture ripe for productive struggle, Naomi's insights encourage educators to rethink how math is taught.
Empowering students is at the heart of our discussion, focusing on how autonomy can revolutionize their learning experience. We explore the potential of giving students choices—from the problems they tackle to how they collaborate and demonstrate mastery. This isn't just about letting go; it's about strategically passing the baton to our learners in ways that build their confidence and efficacy. We draw inspiration from "Building Thinking Classrooms," offering strategies that shift the onus of learning from educators to students, fostering independent thinkers ready to navigate complex problems.
Finally, we dissect the math block, offering a fresh perspective on balancing instruction, reteaching, and remediation. By dividing the lesson into targeted segments, we ensure every second contributes to meaningful learning. Say goodbye to traditional drills and engage students with recommended resources like "Math Fact Fluency" by Jenny Bay Williams and Gina Kling, which integrate fun fluency games into lessons. Join us in celebrating a minimalist approach that doesn't sacrifice depth or understanding, but instead, maximizes every moment in the math classroom.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
Welcome to the Minimalist Educator Podcast, a
podcast about paring down torefocus on the purpose and
priorities in our roles withco-hosts and co-authors of the
Minimalist Teacher Book, TammyMusialski-Bornemann and
Christine Arnold.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Hello and welcome to this very special episode of the
Minimalist Educator Podcast.
Welcome, Tammy.
How are you today?
Speaker 3 (00:44):
I'm doing great this morning, and how are you?
Speaker 2 (00:49):
I'm good.
Are you excited to hear what isour most popular episode of the
podcast?
Speaker 3 (00:56):
I really am.
Yes, I do know it's one of ourvery first ones from season one.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
It is.
It is definitely one of ourearliest ones and it's also from
a repeat guest.
This person has actually beenwith us twice already.
It is none other than NaomiChurch back in episode seven.
Minimalism in Math Instruction.
There you go.
That is our most popularepisode instruction.
Speaker 3 (01:31):
There you go.
That is our most popularepisode.
That is so fun because, um, soI'm wondering why?
Well, that's not a good way tosay it, because obviously Naomi
is brilliant with her mathexpertise and connection to
universal design for learning.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
Yes, yes, but I know what you mean, though I think,
yeah, wondering why people havebeen drawn to that particular
episode.
But I think it's because whenyou're thinking about math I
know a lot of teachers that wetalk to find math, this big math
(02:10):
, this big massive area, itfeels for a lot of people like a
really heavy subject area todeal with, because not only do
you have all of these so manydifferent strands, but also the
way that we think and talk andteach math has been evolving
right.
So I think for a lot of thepeople that we talk to, this is
like anecdotal evidence here.
It does seem like an area inwhich people often feel a bit
(02:32):
overwhelmed, or it's a lot todeal with, it's a lot to take on
.
So it makes sense to me thatpeople have been particularly
interested in that topic.
Speaker 3 (02:43):
I think so and I think too, like minimals and
math kind of you know, don'tseem like they would go together
.
But I think one of the mostimportant things that we talked
about was how teachers canreframe their thinking about how
they're teaching it, and thatreally is who's doing the
(03:04):
thinking in the math classroom.
The students should be like, yes, you know you should know how
to teach what you're going toteach, but you don't have to
know, you don't have to be anexpert in all of it unless
you're doing higher level math,right.
So the the cool thing is is thatwhen you open up the
opportunities for students andgive them problems to solve and
(03:28):
listen to them thinking, you canreally get some good
information just from posing asimple problem, under whatever
strand you're teaching, and justfocus on student thinking.
So if that's the focus of yourmath sessions, it feels a little
bit less burdensome by thepacing guide, I should say right
(03:53):
, because the pacing guide canfreak people out and because
it's so packed, and if you'reusing a pre-packaged curriculum,
which is a great resource, butthere's so much in it, yeah, and
it's hard to kind of dig outthe best pieces specifically for
your students.
So if you think of okay, I'mgoing to look at my curriculum
(04:18):
stuff with the lens of who'sdoing the thinking here.
How much am I going to have toteach something you know?
And you're balancing out thetime.
It's a great way to think aboutit.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
Absolutely for sure, and I think you know from my own
personal experience, especiallysince COVID sometimes you know
you'll have one particularstandard that you're supposed to
be working on with your kiddos,but they might be like multiple
years below anywhere near thatstandard.
And so then you feel like notonly do I have to teach all of
(04:49):
those standards, but I have togo back and make sure that we
filled the gaps and got thelearning that's leading up to
that standard as well.
So then it feels like this evenmore packed curriculum.
But again, as Naomi is tellingus, if you're thinking about the
thinking, if you're movingthose decisions over to the kids
, it can really strategize,minimize what we're doing in our
(05:16):
math lessons universal designfor learning is really helpful
because you can.
Speaker 3 (05:27):
There's so many ways that you can approach teaching
all of your learners thenwithout having to differentiate
for every single student, whichis like you.
Sometimes you'd still have todo that, but if we're designing
more open learning opportunities, we're being more strategic
with our planning time.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
Absolutely, and it's really good to re-listen to what
she was saying about the bestuse of that math block.
I think that's always a goodreminder to listen in and hear
that again.
How do I structure that60-minute, 90-minute block to
make the most of the mathinstructional time?
Speaker 3 (06:07):
Yeah, because time is very precious and it feels like
it doesn't seem like an hourfor math is long enough if you
want to do all of these things,but at the same time you want to
do the right things.
So really being strategic withthe planning of time is really
helpful.
It is.
It's a good thinking exercise,for sure, but it's so valuable
(06:32):
and you'll end up seeingprobably some good gains in your
classroom if you're verystrategic, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
So with that, we hope you enjoyed re-listening to our
most popular episode with NaomiChurch.
All about minimalism in mathinstruction.
Speaker 3 (06:51):
Hello Naomi, Welcome to the show.
Thanks for being on with ustoday.
Speaker 4 (06:56):
Thank you for having me.
I'm really excited to chattoday.
Speaker 3 (07:02):
We know that math is your specialty, obviously, and
I've gotten to know you over thelast few years in a few
capacities, but I always lovewatching you teach educators
about math instruction andcreating access for learners,
and so we're going to talk aboutthat today, but we're also
(07:22):
going to talk about math in theclassroom, because we know that
math is really complex as asubject and math instruction is
also complex, and we're talkingabout minimizing things which
can be pretty tough in a mathclassroom.
So what are some of the thingsthat teachers need to think
about just generally when theyare addressing math instruction
(07:45):
in their classrooms?
Speaker 4 (07:47):
Yeah.
So in a general math classroomthere are so many things going
on, right?
Our teachers have to considerwhat are the standards, right?
What's the set of standards forthe state country that they're
in?
What's the scope and sequence?
(08:08):
When is standardized testing?
How much of this has to getdone, possibly before
standardized testing?
Differentiation and reteachingfor students who don't seem to
be mastering the content If theyhave an adopted instructional
material, how to be using thattextbook or those materials,
(08:33):
which activities and resourcesto pull?
So there's a lot of things thatreally they need to think about
and integrate all the time.
But I would like to put it outthere that while, yes, all that
stuff is on the table yes, allthat stuff is on the table it
(08:53):
might be better to instead bethinking about who's doing the
thinking and who's working thehardest, right?
So if we reposition it awayfrom this laundry list of all of
the considerations in math andchange it over into within the
(09:16):
math classroom, who's doing thethinking and who's working the
hardest, it changes the way thatwe approach the math
instruction.
Speaker 3 (09:26):
That's really valuable because I know that
I've been one of those teacherswhere I'm just thinking way too
hard.
I'm thinking more than mystudents, I'm doing more than my
students and I think listenerscan really relate to that,
because we are always thinkingabout but I need to do this and
I need to create the support andI need to do all these things
for my students.
But stepping back a little bitto allow some of those pieces to
(09:51):
be in the hands of our learnersis really valuable and it takes
away some of the things thatteachers have to do, whether
it's decisions that are made oreven just talking less right and
letting the kids talk more.
So can you talk a little bitabout how parents I'm sorry, not
parents how educators can, orwhat frameworks even that
(10:15):
educators can think about or useor implement when they're
trying to step back and justreduce a little bit of that
whether it's front loading ortoo much thinking for their
students?
Speaker 4 (10:28):
For sure.
Yeah, the math instruction cancertainly seem overwhelming.
The math instruction cancertainly seem overwhelming when
you're trying to pull in amillion things at once, and I
think that, as we're talkingabout minimalism in math, we
need to think about universaldesign for learning.
So this is a framework that Iam super passionate about and,
(10:52):
at its core, it's really aboutcreating expert learners that,
instead of teaching content tostudents to anybody really we're
teaching them how to learn, andthese are skills that are going
to benefit them in everycontext for their whole lives.
(11:13):
Right, we offer a buffet oflearning options and then we
teach our students to play offof their own strengths, to
leverage what it is that they'regood at to help make decisions.
So, if we want to stop doingall of the thinking and put it
(11:34):
in the hands of our students,part of how we do that is by
universally designing theinstruction, that perhaps,
instead of telling them how toshow what they know, we give
them options for showing whatthey know in a way that makes
them excited or that buildstheir confidence or that
(11:55):
leverages their strengths.
At the same time, we look atproductive struggle in math.
So, with the best of intentions, in a math class we typically
give students all the answers.
If we're solving a multi-stepword problem, we're going to
break it down and tell them whatevery step is going to be and
(12:18):
where it goes and why.
And when we do that, we'repulling the thinking out of the
math and it just becomes rotememorization and following
procedures.
And so if we want to put thethinking back in the hands of
students, we need to embracethis idea of productive struggle
, and that word productive iskey, right?
(12:41):
We've all been in classroomswhere there's unproductive
struggle, where students arefrustrated and maybe we're
seeing behavior problems andthere's evidence of it in other
ways.
So productive struggle is veryintentional in choosing the
right examples or problems thatare maybe just outside of the
(13:05):
current ability level or, youknow, just outside of what we've
already learned, to stretch itenough to allow students to make
connections for themselves.
So between UDL and thenproductive struggle, we're
looking at taking some of thisout of the hands of the teacher,
(13:27):
so it's not the teacher havingto make a million different
decisions and we're puttingthese things in the hands of the
students.
And then there's a great bookthat a lot of folks have been
talking about called BuildingThinking Classrooms.
And this book is neat becauseit goes into a lot of the
(13:49):
research behind how to getstudents to think.
And when we really dig intothat research, none of it has to
do with the teacher standing upthere making all the decisions
and doing the talking.
It is getting problems in thehands of students, getting them
(14:10):
in groups, getting them to showtheir thinking and make it
visible.
Speaker 2 (14:17):
Oh, that's awesome, Naomi.
I'm making so many connectionsas you're talking there,
thinking about the, you knowwho's doing the thinking, who's
doing the work, who's doing thetalking, and you know all of
that.
You know the learning pit withthe productive struggle, like so
many connections going at themoment.
So you know, tammy and I talk alot about.
You know thinking about yourpriorities and making priorities
(14:38):
.
You know a big part of whatyou're doing.
So how do we use our prioritiesand make decisions with all of
these different things that weneed to tackle?
Speaker 4 (14:46):
Yeah, I like that.
So, as teachers, in any subjectat any level, we make thousands
of decisions every day, and Itaught elementary, and as an
elementary teacher who wasresponsible for all of the
subjects, it felt like even more, and so we can think about
(15:09):
shifting some of that decisionmaking from the teachers on to
the students.
Not every choice has to comefrom the teacher so we can think
about.
Can students choose the problemthat they're working on instead
of the teacher choosing forthem?
Can the students choose whothey work with, instead of the
(15:31):
teacher spending all of thistime coming up with these groups
?
Can the students choose themanipulative that they work with
?
Sometimes there's value inchoosing the wrong manipulative
and finding a really inefficientway to work on something that
leads them to the rightmanipulative, and we strip that
(15:52):
from our students by justhanding them the one that we
know will work.
Can students choose what colorthey write with?
Does it matter?
Sometimes it does, sometimes itdoesn't.
Maybe they want to color codeit in a different way.
Maybe they want to show theirthought process through the use
(16:13):
of different colors.
Right?
Can students choose how theyshow mastery?
Some students are really goodwith visuals and graphics.
Some students are really goodwith talking.
Some students are really goodwith writing.
Can they choose how they showmastery and leverage their
(16:34):
strengths?
Can they choose the numbers inthe problem?
11 is my favorite number, so ifI see an 11 in a problem, I
usually want to choose thatproblem or find a way to put it
in right.
They all have favorite numbers.
Maybe it's their favoritebasketball player's number, or
(16:55):
their birthday, or the numberthey use in sports, and so, yeah
, letting students choose eventhe numbers that they use right?
There's so many of thesedecisions that teachers are
making every day that maybe theydon't have to.
Speaker 3 (17:14):
I've got an observation or thought or
question about that inparticular, just the ideas
around what can kids choose,right?
So it's reducing some of thatdecision making for teachers in
the math classroom.
How do we get past some of theingrained mindset of teachers
(17:35):
that they have to do all of thisfor their students?
Because that for me, when I'mworking with teachers, it's
often a struggle, and so I don'tknow if you have like a tip or
something or if it's just likeongoing discussion about where
can we let go of decisions.
But that's what I'm noticing.
It's really hard.
So they'll say, yeah, they'remaking choices, they're doing
(17:56):
these things in the classroom,but then I see the opposite of
that.
Or when I talk to students,they aren't making those
decisions.
So you know, I guess it's aquestion and a statement, I'm
not sure which.
Speaker 4 (18:12):
I guess it's a question and a statement, I'm
not sure which.
I think that it has to begradual.
A lot of us who went intoteaching especially a lot of us
who went into elementaryteaching, I think are type A
personalities and we really likethings organized.
We like to have control overthings, and I know personally in
(18:38):
the classroom it was reallydifficult for me to give some of
these things up, because thenthere's a whole lot more
uncertainty.
Look, when you leave things inthe hands of 25, six-year-olds,
you never know what's going tohappen, right?
So, yeah, it's not easy andthere's not going to be a quick
answer that's like oh yeah, justturn it all over.
(19:01):
I think that it has to begradual and you have to start
with decisions that you'rewilling to give up or that
you're more willing to give up.
Maybe it starts by younarrowing down the field to
three problems or five problems,and then they can pick which
(19:21):
problem they want to do fromthere.
Maybe it's not a free for allright, maybe it's not an option
of, I don't know.
How do you think you can show mewhat you know in the best
possible way?
Maybe it's you can write anessay, you can make a video
explaining it, or you can make aPowerPoint and the slides
(19:43):
explain it.
Maybe there's just threechoices instead of unlimited
choices, right?
Maybe you can't handle kidswriting in marker and then
making mistakes and crossingthem out, so maybe it's a choice
of a pencil or an erasable pen,so that there's still a way for
them to erase.
So there's some choice, butit's not wide open.
(20:06):
I think that you have to sort ofwade into this pool of choice
and then, as you become morecomfortable giving up control,
you can offer more and more.
And I think that this reallygoes along with efficacy, where
when we see students makingchoices and being more confident
(20:28):
and being better able to showwhat they know and maybe having
to reteach less because thestudents were able to show you
know what they knew, then we'remore likely to give them more
leeway and and give them morespace here, because we're seeing
that it's working.
(20:49):
It's hard to just give it allup at once yeah it, it's
definitely a journey, isn't it?
Speaker 2 (20:54):
But hopefully people can you know, no matter who they
are or where they're working,they can find one way in to
giving the kids a little bitmore of that, say, in the
classroom.
So math books are usually 30 to60 minutes in the elementary
classroom, even the secondaryclassroom as well.
So, knowing that teachers arevery time poor, what would you
(21:16):
suggest would be the best waysthat we could use that short
math block time?
Speaker 4 (21:22):
So I love it when it's possible for a math block
to be 90 minutes long.
That is amazing, especially ifwe can make the reading block
and the math block the sameamount of time, so that we're
really showing that math is anequal priority and it's not
secondary to reading instruction.
(21:42):
So I want to put that out there.
But yes, of course we alwayshave limited time and within the
math block we're looking atteaching new things right.
That is just a part of how thisworks.
We have to teach the standards.
We probably have a scope andsequence to follow, so we have
(22:02):
to teach new things.
We also likely have to reteachwhen students are not showing
mastery or when they're just notgetting something right.
We need to have the ability toreteach and the bottom line is
that in most classrooms we havesome students who are below
grade level, who maybe aremissing foundational skills that
(22:24):
they really need to help themto make connections, and so that
is remediation, where we'relooking at closing skill gaps,
and ideally it's nice when thereis a separate time and space
for remediation or intervention,but knowing that that is not
always the case, I recommendsplitting the math block into
(22:47):
three components and pretty muchequal in time, if you can work
it.
I mean, you know it depends onif we have a 40 minute block.
Maybe we have to, you know,move things around a little bit,
but if we can break these upevenly.
I like to start with a guidedand focused instruction segment,
(23:09):
and this is traditional wholegroup instruction, where we're
introducing something new orwe're doing some kind of a quick
introduction and then allowingthe students to work in groups.
And then the second segmentwould be where we are able to
reteach to the kids who are notunderstanding what we were just
(23:32):
talking about in whole group.
They seem to be missing a fewof the pieces and while the
teacher reteaches, maybe therest of the students are at
centers or stations, dependingon what we want to call them.
And then in the third segmentwe have a spot designated for
the teacher to do remediation orintervention for students who
(23:55):
have significant skill gaps, andso that way we built it right
into the math block where theteacher can fill those gaps.
And then other students are atcenters and look.
It's possible that sometimes wehave the same students in
reteaching and remediation andthat happens, and you know what
the benefit there is that thatstudent is getting a lot of
(24:17):
small group time with theteacher.
They're getting a lot moreindividualized instruction that
is meeting their needs.
And so if we look at splittingthis up and maybe we do this
four days a week, maybe this isnot the math block all five days
a week, maybe we just do thisfour days a week and then we do
(24:39):
something different on the lastday but this helps to ensure
that we're able to get all ofthese key components in and it
also helps to make sure that wedon't just use the entire time
for whole group instruction ofthe teacher talking at the
students, because most likelylet's say I split this into
(25:00):
15-minute segments If the kidsdidn't get it in the first 15
minutes, they're probably notgoing to get it.
If you spent another 30 minutestalking at them, your best bet
is probably to just stop it andthen reteach in small group in a
different way, using a video, asong, a different manipulative
(25:21):
or whatever.
It is right, but we know thattypically just doing the same
thing longer, slower, louder,that doesn't really reach kids.
Speaker 3 (25:32):
Thank you for mentioning that, because that
was exactly what was in my head,right?
How long do you sit there andthink that you're teaching
effectively?
We can't spend longer than 10,15 minutes with a whole group
and think that it's going tostick.
And then those reteachinggroups.
You can't just repeat what youjust said, right?
(25:54):
Because that's exhaustion forteachers, like when you have to
continue to just say the samething over and over.
And we know we have to do thatsometimes.
But that's just a layer ofmental fatigue that we just all
encounter and we're like whyaren't they getting it?
Because we haven't changed whatwe're doing, and maybe that
would be a little bit of arefresh rather than just saying
(26:15):
the same words again to asmaller group of people.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
So thank you for saying that.
Definitely not going to belearning anything if they've
tuned you out at that point aswell.
Okay, so you know we like tothink about paring back as well
as we're talking aboutminimalism.
So if you could removesomething altogether from math
programs around the world, whatwould you get rid of, naomi?
Speaker 4 (26:42):
So a lot of math programs still include drilled
fact fluency and timed testingand we can definitely pull those
out.
There's been more research inthe past decade or so that shows
that that is not effective,that all of these components
(27:03):
where we're essentially forcingmemorization should be pulled
out of math programs.
Because we know that whenstudents memorize it's getting
stored into their working memory, and as soon as students
experience stress and anxietyespecially if we think about
(27:23):
testing anxiety that workingmemory shuts down and so they
can't recall any of that stuffthat they worked so hard to
memorize.
And so if we allow our studentsto do more of the thinking and
to be more actively engaged,they're going to store things in
different parts of the brainand they will actually do better
(27:46):
on these standardized tests andchapter tests than just forcing
them to memorize it.
And so when I talked about themath block, breaking it into
these components, when theteacher is reteaching or
remediating, the rest of thestudents could be at math
centers, and that is a greattime to incorporate fluency,
(28:08):
that it doesn't necessarily haveto be a separate thing that we
do, and actually sometimes whenwe make it a separate thing,
students don't generalize thatinformation and pull it over
into the math block.
Especially students withdisabilities can have a hard
time generalizing that.
So if we better incorporate itinto the math block by making
(28:32):
centers about fluency, then thecenters are fun, engaging.
They're working on a criticalskill that you know everybody
needs and, yeah, they're morelikely to remember it when they
need it.
So there's a great book by JennyBay Williams and Gina Kling
(28:53):
called Math Fact Fluency, and itis full of games.
There's even a companionwebsite where you can download
some of these games for free andso, depending on the grade
level and where you're at in theyear, what your students need
to work on with fluency, there'sdifferent games that address
different aspects of it.
We can also get rid of thequote unquote homework book.
(29:19):
I've used math programs thathad a separate workbook that was
like just meant to be sent homeand where, like, the students
were supposed to do multiplepages or like the page that went
with the day's lesson forhomework, and I think that we
can toss that out as well.
There's been a lot offrustration around that I'm sure
(29:42):
a lot of teachers haveexperienced that where you send
that home and the parents don'tknow how to teach that concept
the way that it was taught atschool, and so they almost
derail the teaching by showingit in the way that they learned
it growing up and not the waythat the teacher showed it.
And it can cause somefrustration, not just with the
(30:04):
parents but with the students.
But my teacher said this rightand they don't like this discord
.
So instead we can look atminimalizing homework.
Instead of two pages ofproblems, maybe there's just one
good problem and they can solveit in different ways or really
(30:27):
show their thinking behind it.
Or maybe we can flip theclassroom and it can be a video
of the teacher lecture.
Since we maybe don't want to dothat we don't want to use our
whole group time for that wecould send that video home for
older students.
Let them watch that at home,maybe take their notes at home
(30:49):
and then do the problem solvingin class, where they can get
that just-in-time support thatthey need.
Speaker 2 (30:57):
That's awesome.
I love that.
Before we let you go, naomi, wedo want to do a pare-down
pointer with you, if possible.
So what we would like is tohear a tip from you, a strategy
maybe, about how we can paredown or be really effective or
minimalist.
You know we've been talkingabout math today, but it doesn't
(31:19):
have to be in the realm of math, it could just be generally in
life generally in life.
Speaker 4 (31:30):
So if I think about math programs, I know myself as
a teacher.
A lot of teachers that I workwith now are very overwhelmed by
everything in the mathcurriculum, and so my pointer
would be that you don't have touse everything that a publisher
put out there.
Everything that a publisher putout there, even if your
district or your school tellsyou that you have to use an
(31:51):
adopted material, that's fine.
You don't have to do everyactivity that's in there.
You don't have to do everyworksheet that's in there you
don't want to use, becausechoosing a single great resource
or problem or page is going tobe better than making students
(32:15):
do it all.
Speaker 2 (32:18):
Awesome, that's a perfect pare down point.
Thank you, naomi.
We hope you've enjoyedlistening to this countdown of
our three most popular podcastepisodes so far, ending with
this fantastic discussion withNaomi Church.
This episode was brought to youby Growing Minds Consulting,
empowering educators to reachand teach all learners using the
(32:38):
universal design for learningframework.
Find out more atgrowingmindsconsultingcom.
Speaker 1 (32:59):
Find out more at growingmindsconsultingcom.
The music for the podcast hasbeen written and performed by
Gaia Moretti.
Welcome to the Minimalist Educator Podcast, a
podcast about paring down torefocus on the purpose and
priorities in our roles withco-hosts and co-authors of the
Minimalist Teacher Book, TammyMusialski-Bornemann and
Christine Arnold.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Hello and welcome to this very special episode of the
Minimalist Educator Podcast.
Welcome, Tammy.
How are you today?
Speaker 3 (00:44):
I'm doing great this morning, and how are you?
Speaker 2 (00:49):
I'm good.
Are you excited to hear what isour most popular episode of the
podcast?
Speaker 3 (00:56):
I really am.
Yes, I do know it's one of ourvery first ones from season one.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
It is.
It is definitely one of ourearliest ones and it's also from
a repeat guest.
This person has actually beenwith us twice already.
It is none other than NaomiChurch back in episode seven.
Minimalism in Math Instruction.
There you go.
That is our most popularepisode instruction.
Speaker 3 (01:31):
There you go.
That is our most popularepisode.
That is so fun because, um, soI'm wondering why?
Well, that's not a good way tosay it, because obviously Naomi
is brilliant with her mathexpertise and connection to
universal design for learning.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
Yes, yes, but I know what you mean, though I think,
yeah, wondering why people havebeen drawn to that particular
episode.
But I think it's because whenyou're thinking about math I
know a lot of teachers that wetalk to find math, this big math
(02:10):
, this big massive area, itfeels for a lot of people like a
really heavy subject area todeal with, because not only do
you have all of these so manydifferent strands, but also the
way that we think and talk andteach math has been evolving
right.
So I think for a lot of thepeople that we talk to, this is
like anecdotal evidence here.
It does seem like an area inwhich people often feel a bit
(02:32):
overwhelmed, or it's a lot todeal with, it's a lot to take on
.
So it makes sense to me thatpeople have been particularly
interested in that topic.
Speaker 3 (02:43):
I think so and I think too, like minimals and
math kind of you know, don'tseem like they would go together
.
But I think one of the mostimportant things that we talked
about was how teachers canreframe their thinking about how
they're teaching it, and thatreally is who's doing the
(03:04):
thinking in the math classroom.
The students should be like, yes, you know you should know how
to teach what you're going toteach, but you don't have to
know, you don't have to be anexpert in all of it unless
you're doing higher level math,right.
So the the cool thing is is thatwhen you open up the
opportunities for students andgive them problems to solve and
(03:28):
listen to them thinking, you canreally get some good
information just from posing asimple problem, under whatever
strand you're teaching, and justfocus on student thinking.
So if that's the focus of yourmath sessions, it feels a little
bit less burdensome by thepacing guide, I should say right
(03:53):
, because the pacing guide canfreak people out and because
it's so packed, and if you'reusing a pre-packaged curriculum,
which is a great resource, butthere's so much in it, yeah, and
it's hard to kind of dig outthe best pieces specifically for
your students.
So if you think of okay, I'mgoing to look at my curriculum
(04:18):
stuff with the lens of who'sdoing the thinking here.
How much am I going to have toteach something you know?
And you're balancing out thetime.
It's a great way to think aboutit.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
Absolutely for sure, and I think you know from my own
personal experience, especiallysince COVID sometimes you know
you'll have one particularstandard that you're supposed to
be working on with your kiddos,but they might be like multiple
years below anywhere near thatstandard.
And so then you feel like notonly do I have to teach all of
(04:49):
those standards, but I have togo back and make sure that we
filled the gaps and got thelearning that's leading up to
that standard as well.
So then it feels like this evenmore packed curriculum.
But again, as Naomi is tellingus, if you're thinking about the
thinking, if you're movingthose decisions over to the kids
, it can really strategize,minimize what we're doing in our
(05:16):
math lessons universal designfor learning is really helpful
because you can.
Speaker 3 (05:27):
There's so many ways that you can approach teaching
all of your learners thenwithout having to differentiate
for every single student, whichis like you.
Sometimes you'd still have todo that, but if we're designing
more open learning opportunities, we're being more strategic
with our planning time.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
Absolutely, and it's really good to re-listen to what
she was saying about the bestuse of that math block.
I think that's always a goodreminder to listen in and hear
that again.
How do I structure that60-minute, 90-minute block to
make the most of the mathinstructional time?
Speaker 3 (06:07):
Yeah, because time is very precious and it feels like
it doesn't seem like an hourfor math is long enough if you
want to do all of these things,but at the same time you want to
do the right things.
So really being strategic withthe planning of time is really
helpful.
It is.
It's a good thinking exercise,for sure, but it's so valuable
(06:32):
and you'll end up seeingprobably some good gains in your
classroom if you're verystrategic, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
So with that, we hope you enjoyed re-listening to our
most popular episode with NaomiChurch.
All about minimalism in mathinstruction.
Speaker 3 (06:51):
Hello Naomi, Welcome to the show.
Thanks for being on with ustoday.
Speaker 4 (06:56):
Thank you for having me.
I'm really excited to chattoday.
Speaker 3 (07:02):
We know that math is your specialty, obviously, and
I've gotten to know you over thelast few years in a few
capacities, but I always lovewatching you teach educators
about math instruction andcreating access for learners,
and so we're going to talk aboutthat today, but we're also
(07:22):
going to talk about math in theclassroom, because we know that
math is really complex as asubject and math instruction is
also complex, and we're talkingabout minimizing things which
can be pretty tough in a mathclassroom.
So what are some of the thingsthat teachers need to think
about just generally when theyare addressing math instruction
(07:45):
in their classrooms?
Speaker 4 (07:47):
Yeah.
So in a general math classroomthere are so many things going
on, right?
Our teachers have to considerwhat are the standards, right?
What's the set of standards forthe state country that they're
in?
What's the scope and sequence?
(08:08):
When is standardized testing?
How much of this has to getdone, possibly before
standardized testing?
Differentiation and reteachingfor students who don't seem to
be mastering the content If theyhave an adopted instructional
material, how to be using thattextbook or those materials,
(08:33):
which activities and resourcesto pull?
So there's a lot of things thatreally they need to think about
and integrate all the time.
But I would like to put it outthere that while, yes, all that
stuff is on the table yes, allthat stuff is on the table it
(08:53):
might be better to instead bethinking about who's doing the
thinking and who's working thehardest, right?
So if we reposition it awayfrom this laundry list of all of
the considerations in math andchange it over into within the
(09:16):
math classroom, who's doing thethinking and who's working the
hardest, it changes the way thatwe approach the math
instruction.
Speaker 3 (09:26):
That's really valuable because I know that
I've been one of those teacherswhere I'm just thinking way too
hard.
I'm thinking more than mystudents, I'm doing more than my
students and I think listenerscan really relate to that,
because we are always thinkingabout but I need to do this and
I need to create the support andI need to do all these things
for my students.
But stepping back a little bitto allow some of those pieces to
(09:51):
be in the hands of our learnersis really valuable and it takes
away some of the things thatteachers have to do, whether
it's decisions that are made oreven just talking less right and
letting the kids talk more.
So can you talk a little bitabout how parents I'm sorry, not
parents how educators can, orwhat frameworks even that
(10:15):
educators can think about or useor implement when they're
trying to step back and justreduce a little bit of that
whether it's front loading ortoo much thinking for their
students?
Speaker 4 (10:28):
For sure.
Yeah, the math instruction cancertainly seem overwhelming.
The math instruction cancertainly seem overwhelming when
you're trying to pull in amillion things at once, and I
think that, as we're talkingabout minimalism in math, we
need to think about universaldesign for learning.
So this is a framework that Iam super passionate about and,
(10:52):
at its core, it's really aboutcreating expert learners that,
instead of teaching content tostudents to anybody really we're
teaching them how to learn, andthese are skills that are going
to benefit them in everycontext for their whole lives.
(11:13):
Right, we offer a buffet oflearning options and then we
teach our students to play offof their own strengths, to
leverage what it is that they'regood at to help make decisions.
So, if we want to stop doingall of the thinking and put it
(11:34):
in the hands of our students,part of how we do that is by
universally designing theinstruction, that perhaps,
instead of telling them how toshow what they know, we give
them options for showing whatthey know in a way that makes
them excited or that buildstheir confidence or that
(11:55):
leverages their strengths.
At the same time, we look atproductive struggle in math.
So, with the best of intentions, in a math class we typically
give students all the answers.
If we're solving a multi-stepword problem, we're going to
break it down and tell them whatevery step is going to be and
(12:18):
where it goes and why.
And when we do that, we'repulling the thinking out of the
math and it just becomes rotememorization and following
procedures.
And so if we want to put thethinking back in the hands of
students, we need to embracethis idea of productive struggle
, and that word productive iskey, right?
(12:41):
We've all been in classroomswhere there's unproductive
struggle, where students arefrustrated and maybe we're
seeing behavior problems andthere's evidence of it in other
ways.
So productive struggle is veryintentional in choosing the
right examples or problems thatare maybe just outside of the
(13:05):
current ability level or, youknow, just outside of what we've
already learned, to stretch itenough to allow students to make
connections for themselves.
So between UDL and thenproductive struggle, we're
looking at taking some of thisout of the hands of the teacher,
(13:27):
so it's not the teacher havingto make a million different
decisions and we're puttingthese things in the hands of the
students.
And then there's a great bookthat a lot of folks have been
talking about called BuildingThinking Classrooms.
And this book is neat becauseit goes into a lot of the
(13:49):
research behind how to getstudents to think.
And when we really dig intothat research, none of it has to
do with the teacher standing upthere making all the decisions
and doing the talking.
It is getting problems in thehands of students, getting them
(14:10):
in groups, getting them to showtheir thinking and make it
visible.
Speaker 2 (14:17):
Oh, that's awesome, Naomi.
I'm making so many connectionsas you're talking there,
thinking about the, you knowwho's doing the thinking, who's
doing the work, who's doing thetalking, and you know all of
that.
You know the learning pit withthe productive struggle, like so
many connections going at themoment.
So you know, tammy and I talk alot about.
You know thinking about yourpriorities and making priorities
(14:38):
.
You know a big part of whatyou're doing.
So how do we use our prioritiesand make decisions with all of
these different things that weneed to tackle?
Speaker 4 (14:46):
Yeah, I like that.
So, as teachers, in any subjectat any level, we make thousands
of decisions every day, and Itaught elementary, and as an
elementary teacher who wasresponsible for all of the
subjects, it felt like even more, and so we can think about
(15:09):
shifting some of that decisionmaking from the teachers on to
the students.
Not every choice has to comefrom the teacher so we can think
about.
Can students choose the problemthat they're working on instead
of the teacher choosing forthem?
Can the students choose whothey work with, instead of the
(15:31):
teacher spending all of thistime coming up with these groups
?
Can the students choose themanipulative that they work with
?
Sometimes there's value inchoosing the wrong manipulative
and finding a really inefficientway to work on something that
leads them to the rightmanipulative, and we strip that
(15:52):
from our students by justhanding them the one that we
know will work.
Can students choose what colorthey write with?
Does it matter?
Sometimes it does, sometimes itdoesn't.
Maybe they want to color codeit in a different way.
Maybe they want to show theirthought process through the use
(16:13):
of different colors.
Right?
Can students choose how theyshow mastery?
Some students are really goodwith visuals and graphics.
Some students are really goodwith talking.
Some students are really goodwith writing.
Can they choose how they showmastery and leverage their
(16:34):
strengths?
Can they choose the numbers inthe problem?
11 is my favorite number, so ifI see an 11 in a problem, I
usually want to choose thatproblem or find a way to put it
in right.
They all have favorite numbers.
Maybe it's their favoritebasketball player's number, or
(16:55):
their birthday, or the numberthey use in sports, and so, yeah
, letting students choose eventhe numbers that they use right?
There's so many of thesedecisions that teachers are
making every day that maybe theydon't have to.
Speaker 3 (17:14):
I've got an observation or thought or
question about that inparticular, just the ideas
around what can kids choose,right?
So it's reducing some of thatdecision making for teachers in
the math classroom.
How do we get past some of theingrained mindset of teachers
(17:35):
that they have to do all of thisfor their students?
Because that for me, when I'mworking with teachers, it's
often a struggle, and so I don'tknow if you have like a tip or
something or if it's just likeongoing discussion about where
can we let go of decisions.
But that's what I'm noticing.
It's really hard.
So they'll say, yeah, they'remaking choices, they're doing
(17:56):
these things in the classroom,but then I see the opposite of
that.
Or when I talk to students,they aren't making those
decisions.
So you know, I guess it's aquestion and a statement, I'm
not sure which.
Speaker 4 (18:12):
I guess it's a question and a statement, I'm
not sure which.
I think that it has to begradual.
A lot of us who went intoteaching especially a lot of us
who went into elementaryteaching, I think are type A
personalities and we really likethings organized.
We like to have control overthings, and I know personally in
(18:38):
the classroom it was reallydifficult for me to give some of
these things up, because thenthere's a whole lot more
uncertainty.
Look, when you leave things inthe hands of 25, six-year-olds,
you never know what's going tohappen, right?
So, yeah, it's not easy andthere's not going to be a quick
answer that's like oh yeah, justturn it all over.
(19:01):
I think that it has to begradual and you have to start
with decisions that you'rewilling to give up or that
you're more willing to give up.
Maybe it starts by younarrowing down the field to
three problems or five problems,and then they can pick which
(19:21):
problem they want to do fromthere.
Maybe it's not a free for allright, maybe it's not an option
of, I don't know.
How do you think you can show mewhat you know in the best
possible way?
Maybe it's you can write anessay, you can make a video
explaining it, or you can make aPowerPoint and the slides
(19:43):
explain it.
Maybe there's just threechoices instead of unlimited
choices, right?
Maybe you can't handle kidswriting in marker and then
making mistakes and crossingthem out, so maybe it's a choice
of a pencil or an erasable pen,so that there's still a way for
them to erase.
So there's some choice, butit's not wide open.
(20:06):
I think that you have to sort ofwade into this pool of choice
and then, as you become morecomfortable giving up control,
you can offer more and more.
And I think that this reallygoes along with efficacy, where
when we see students makingchoices and being more confident
(20:28):
and being better able to showwhat they know and maybe having
to reteach less because thestudents were able to show you
know what they knew, then we'remore likely to give them more
leeway and and give them morespace here, because we're seeing
that it's working.
(20:49):
It's hard to just give it allup at once yeah it, it's
definitely a journey, isn't it?
Speaker 2 (20:54):
But hopefully people can you know, no matter who they
are or where they're working,they can find one way in to
giving the kids a little bitmore of that, say, in the
classroom.
So math books are usually 30 to60 minutes in the elementary
classroom, even the secondaryclassroom as well.
So, knowing that teachers arevery time poor, what would you
(21:16):
suggest would be the best waysthat we could use that short
math block time?
Speaker 4 (21:22):
So I love it when it's possible for a math block
to be 90 minutes long.
That is amazing, especially ifwe can make the reading block
and the math block the sameamount of time, so that we're
really showing that math is anequal priority and it's not
secondary to reading instruction.
(21:42):
So I want to put that out there.
But yes, of course we alwayshave limited time and within the
math block we're looking atteaching new things right.
That is just a part of how thisworks.
We have to teach the standards.
We probably have a scope andsequence to follow, so we have
(22:02):
to teach new things.
We also likely have to reteachwhen students are not showing
mastery or when they're just notgetting something right.
We need to have the ability toreteach and the bottom line is
that in most classrooms we havesome students who are below
grade level, who maybe aremissing foundational skills that
(22:24):
they really need to help themto make connections, and so that
is remediation, where we'relooking at closing skill gaps,
and ideally it's nice when thereis a separate time and space
for remediation or intervention,but knowing that that is not
always the case, I recommendsplitting the math block into
(22:47):
three components and pretty muchequal in time, if you can work
it.
I mean, you know it depends onif we have a 40 minute block.
Maybe we have to, you know,move things around a little bit,
but if we can break these upevenly.
I like to start with a guidedand focused instruction segment,
(23:09):
and this is traditional wholegroup instruction, where we're
introducing something new orwe're doing some kind of a quick
introduction and then allowingthe students to work in groups.
And then the second segmentwould be where we are able to
reteach to the kids who are notunderstanding what we were just
(23:32):
talking about in whole group.
They seem to be missing a fewof the pieces and while the
teacher reteaches, maybe therest of the students are at
centers or stations, dependingon what we want to call them.
And then in the third segmentwe have a spot designated for
the teacher to do remediation orintervention for students who
(23:55):
have significant skill gaps, andso that way we built it right
into the math block where theteacher can fill those gaps.
And then other students are atcenters and look.
It's possible that sometimes wehave the same students in
reteaching and remediation andthat happens, and you know what
the benefit there is that thatstudent is getting a lot of
(24:17):
small group time with theteacher.
They're getting a lot moreindividualized instruction that
is meeting their needs.
And so if we look at splittingthis up and maybe we do this
four days a week, maybe this isnot the math block all five days
a week, maybe we just do thisfour days a week and then we do
(24:39):
something different on the lastday but this helps to ensure
that we're able to get all ofthese key components in and it
also helps to make sure that wedon't just use the entire time
for whole group instruction ofthe teacher talking at the
students, because most likelylet's say I split this into
(25:00):
15-minute segments If the kidsdidn't get it in the first 15
minutes, they're probably notgoing to get it.
If you spent another 30 minutestalking at them, your best bet
is probably to just stop it andthen reteach in small group in a
different way, using a video, asong, a different manipulative
(25:21):
or whatever.
It is right, but we know thattypically just doing the same
thing longer, slower, louder,that doesn't really reach kids.
Speaker 3 (25:32):
Thank you for mentioning that, because that
was exactly what was in my head,right?
How long do you sit there andthink that you're teaching
effectively?
We can't spend longer than 10,15 minutes with a whole group
and think that it's going tostick.
And then those reteachinggroups.
You can't just repeat what youjust said, right?
(25:54):
Because that's exhaustion forteachers, like when you have to
continue to just say the samething over and over.
And we know we have to do thatsometimes.
But that's just a layer ofmental fatigue that we just all
encounter and we're like whyaren't they getting it?
Because we haven't changed whatwe're doing, and maybe that
would be a little bit of arefresh rather than just saying
(26:15):
the same words again to asmaller group of people.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
So thank you for saying that.
Definitely not going to belearning anything if they've
tuned you out at that point aswell.
Okay, so you know we like tothink about paring back as well
as we're talking aboutminimalism.
So if you could removesomething altogether from math
programs around the world, whatwould you get rid of, naomi?
Speaker 4 (26:42):
So a lot of math programs still include drilled
fact fluency and timed testingand we can definitely pull those
out.
There's been more research inthe past decade or so that shows
that that is not effective,that all of these components
(27:03):
where we're essentially forcingmemorization should be pulled
out of math programs.
Because we know that whenstudents memorize it's getting
stored into their working memory, and as soon as students
experience stress and anxietyespecially if we think about
(27:23):
testing anxiety that workingmemory shuts down and so they
can't recall any of that stuffthat they worked so hard to
memorize.
And so if we allow our studentsto do more of the thinking and
to be more actively engaged,they're going to store things in
different parts of the brainand they will actually do better
(27:46):
on these standardized tests andchapter tests than just forcing
them to memorize it.
And so when I talked about themath block, breaking it into
these components, when theteacher is reteaching or
remediating, the rest of thestudents could be at math
centers, and that is a greattime to incorporate fluency,
(28:08):
that it doesn't necessarily haveto be a separate thing that we
do, and actually sometimes whenwe make it a separate thing,
students don't generalize thatinformation and pull it over
into the math block.
Especially students withdisabilities can have a hard
time generalizing that.
So if we better incorporate itinto the math block by making
(28:32):
centers about fluency, then thecenters are fun, engaging.
They're working on a criticalskill that you know everybody
needs and, yeah, they're morelikely to remember it when they
need it.
So there's a great book by JennyBay Williams and Gina Kling
(28:53):
called Math Fact Fluency, and itis full of games.
There's even a companionwebsite where you can download
some of these games for free andso, depending on the grade
level and where you're at in theyear, what your students need
to work on with fluency, there'sdifferent games that address
different aspects of it.
We can also get rid of thequote unquote homework book.
(29:19):
I've used math programs thathad a separate workbook that was
like just meant to be sent homeand where, like, the students
were supposed to do multiplepages or like the page that went
with the day's lesson forhomework, and I think that we
can toss that out as well.
There's been a lot offrustration around that I'm sure
(29:42):
a lot of teachers haveexperienced that where you send
that home and the parents don'tknow how to teach that concept
the way that it was taught atschool, and so they almost
derail the teaching by showingit in the way that they learned
it growing up and not the waythat the teacher showed it.
And it can cause somefrustration, not just with the
(30:04):
parents but with the students.
But my teacher said this rightand they don't like this discord
.
So instead we can look atminimalizing homework.
Instead of two pages ofproblems, maybe there's just one
good problem and they can solveit in different ways or really
(30:27):
show their thinking behind it.
Or maybe we can flip theclassroom and it can be a video
of the teacher lecture.
Since we maybe don't want to dothat we don't want to use our
whole group time for that wecould send that video home for
older students.
Let them watch that at home,maybe take their notes at home
(30:49):
and then do the problem solvingin class, where they can get
that just-in-time support thatthey need.
Speaker 2 (30:57):
That's awesome.
I love that.
Before we let you go, naomi, wedo want to do a pare-down
pointer with you, if possible.
So what we would like is tohear a tip from you, a strategy
maybe, about how we can paredown or be really effective or
minimalist.
You know we've been talkingabout math today, but it doesn't
(31:19):
have to be in the realm of math, it could just be generally in
life generally in life.
Speaker 4 (31:30):
So if I think about math programs, I know myself as
a teacher.
A lot of teachers that I workwith now are very overwhelmed by
everything in the mathcurriculum, and so my pointer
would be that you don't have touse everything that a publisher
put out there.
Everything that a publisher putout there, even if your
district or your school tellsyou that you have to use an
(31:51):
adopted material, that's fine.
You don't have to do everyactivity that's in there.
You don't have to do everyworksheet that's in there you
don't want to use, becausechoosing a single great resource
or problem or page is going tobe better than making students
(32:15):
do it all.
Speaker 2 (32:18):
Awesome, that's a perfect pare down point.
Thank you, naomi.
We hope you've enjoyedlistening to this countdown of
our three most popular podcastepisodes so far, ending with
this fantastic discussion withNaomi Church.
This episode was brought to youby Growing Minds Consulting,
empowering educators to reachand teach all learners using the
(32:38):
universal design for learningframework.
Find out more atgrowingmindsconsultingcom.
Speaker 1 (32:59):
Find out more at growingmindsconsultingcom.
The music for the podcast hasbeen written and performed by
Gaia Moretti.
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I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com