September 16, 2025 • 27 mins
What if "good enough" really was good enough? Perfectionism has become an invisible burden in education, driving burnout and diminishing joy for both teachers and students. In this enlightening conversation, we explore the revolutionary concept of embracing an "ish" mindset—an approach that celebrates progress over perfection and creates space for genuine growth.
Drawing inspiration from Peter H. Reynolds' picture book "Ish" and Jo Bowler's "Math-ish," we unpack how this transformative thinking applies to classroom practice. When we step back from rigid expectations and all-or-nothing thinking, we discover the freedom to analyze what's working, learn from what isn't, and keep moving forward. This isn't about lowering standards—it's about setting reasonable expectations that honor the messy reality of teaching and learning.
We tackle the uncomfortable double standard many educators live with: encouraging students to learn from mistakes while expecting flawless performance from themselves. By adopting an "ish" approach to planning, assessment, and professional growth, teachers can create more sustainable practices that model authentic learning. The conversation explores practical applications, from flexible lesson planning to reflective practice that focuses on direction rather than perfection.
Whether you're struggling with burnout, feeling trapped by expectations of excellence, or simply seeking a more balanced approach to your work, this episode offers a refreshing perspective that might just change how you view success in education. Listen now to discover how embracing the power of "ish" could transform your teaching experience and reignite your joy in the classroom.
This episode is sponsored by Plan Z Education.
Buy The Minimalist Teacher book from ASCD+ISTE.
Follow on Instagram @PlanZEducation and @minimalist_ed_podcast.
The Minimalist Educator Podcast is a Plan Z Education Services adventure.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
Welcome to the Minimalist Educator podcast,
where the focus is on aless-is-more approach to
education.
Join your hosts, christineArnold and Tammy Musiawski,
authors of the MinimalistTeacher and your School
Leadership.
Edit a minimalist approach torethinking your school ecosystem
each week, as they explorepractical ways to simplify your
(00:36):
work, sharpen your focus andamplify what matters most so you
can teach and lead with greaterclarity, purpose and joy.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
What if good enough really was good enough?
In today's episode, we'regiving perfectionism the side
eye and exploring the power ofthe ish approach in education,
Because sometimes done-ish,ready-ish and perfect-ish are
exactly what we and our studentsneed to thrive are exactly what
we and our students need tothrive.
Welcome everybody to thisweek's episode of the Minimalist
(01:09):
Educator podcast.
Speaker 3 (01:14):
Welcome.
Welcome, Tammy.
How are you doing this week?
I'm doing well.
I'm looking forward to thisconversation, as always, but I
like the connection that youthought of for this one, so I'm
looking forward to it.
How are you?
Speaker 2 (01:27):
I'm good, I'm excited as well to have a chat about
this and see where ourconversation takes us today.
So I'm going to call thisepisode the ish episode.
Tammy, I'm naming it now.
It's the ish episode.
Yes, love it.
Tammy and I were chatting weboth not in a coordinated
(01:49):
approach in any way, shape orform but we both happened to
recently read the book Math Ishby Jo Bowler, which is you know,
we're not here to promote herwork, necessarily, but it just
so happens that we've both beenpicking up and reading that book
recently, and in it she alsomakes reference to the picture
(02:10):
book-ish by Peter H Reynolds aswell, and it got us thinking
about how we can apply this sortof thinking to education and
our work as teachers as well.
So why don't I start withtalking about the picture book?
Yeah, and then maybe you cantell us a little bit about how
(02:34):
the ish comes through with JoBowler's work.
Sure, is that all right?
Yeah, so if you don't know thepicture book Ish by Peter H
Reynolds, definitely pick it upand have a look.
It's a lovely one and, withoutspoiling the plot too much, in
it there's a character who likesto draw but becomes concerned
(02:59):
that the drawings aren'taccurate or perfect enough and
feels a bit put off by it, untilanother character says it's not
quite right, it's not quite avase, but it's vase-ish, and
this inspires the main characterto feel more comfortable and
(03:22):
confident about not having aperfect drawing, but having an
ish drawing, which is a reallylovely thought it really is.
Speaker 3 (03:34):
It's such a great book, um, I I've read it at the
start of school years as a wayto just you kind of embrace a
growth mindset with students tosay it's okay that we might make
a mistake or, you know, wearen't good at something yet,
(03:55):
but we'll get there becausewe're just starting this year
together.
We're just, you know, bringingwhat we have and growing from
there.
And so it was kind of fun tosee this new book by Jo Bowler,
who we've both read.
You know other books by her inthe past and we know her
philosophy and research aroundteaching math, and so this book
(04:17):
Math-ish is really about howmath is just much more than
calculating and being right orwrong and math being just like
this narrow set of ideas.
It's much more about makingsense of problems.
It's about thinking throughsituations and having different
(04:43):
strategies to use to solveproblems and knowing that
there's multiple ways to look atsomething, because what we're
doing when we're solvingmathematical type problems is we
are looking for connections andwe're looking for patterns, and
those are things that ourbrains are wired to do anyway.
Our brain is wired to look forpatterns in something, and so if
(05:07):
we think about math in thismore open way, it becomes a
space that's creative for peopleversus black and white.
So it's not just to solve orcompute something just to solve
(05:28):
or compute something.
It's about making sense ofproblems, thinking about them
creatively, looking at differentvisual representations of what
math can look like for people,Because our brains, yes, they do
certain things similarly, butmany people have different
visualizations of how somethingcan look or how our pattern
grows.
And so when we think about mathin that way, it's much more
(05:52):
open and invites everybody intothat, because everybody can say
something or show somethingabout their understanding of
math, their understanding ofmath.
So it aligns with PeterReynolds' book because it really
(06:13):
is about having an open mindabout math right.
In the other book it's about art, but it doesn't matter.
We're looking about ish in thebigger picture of things, like
you said.
So how can we apply thisbroader way of thinking into
what we do in education in areally complex space where a lot
(06:34):
of times we are looking forexcellence?
We're looking for we don't sayperfection, but sometimes that
word excellence means the samething to people, because maybe
that standard is just reallyhard for people and how do we
(06:54):
kind of still get peopleachieving expectations?
But it is, it's not going tolook the same for everyone
(07:15):
mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
There's a part of the book math ish where mm-hmm she
discusses how you know howimportant estimation is and how
we need to do that.
But she gives this specificexample of how.
She's seen examples over andover again of students who are
(07:38):
using the procedure or using analgorithm getting a completely
wrong answer.
But because they haven'testimated or thought about it,
they've just applied a standardprocedure, they can't see how
wrong their answer is.
They lose sight of what areasonable answer would be.
(08:00):
Yeah, and I think that is areally good analogy for a lot of
what we do in teaching.
You know, like, if you're socaught up in like okay, I'm
following the rules, I'mfollowing the rules, I'm doing
what I've been asked to do, youcould very easily go down a path
of losing track of what isreasonable, what is you know and
(08:24):
what good can look like.
Um, when we're just stuck inthis idea of like I've got to,
I've got to follow the content,I've got to do coverage, I've
got to follow all of these rulesand expectations and what's
being asked of me, you can losetrack of what is reasonable and
I think you know.
(08:45):
When we're talking aboutminimalism in education, I think
this idea of bringing back theish could be a really powerful
notion to ground us back inagain, of letting go of certain
things that aren't serving usand getting back to what is
(09:05):
reasonable as she says, to whatis reasonable as she says yeah,
yeah, I think that's such agreat word, reasonable, right,
because that's one of the mathpractice standards you know,
like applying reasoning toproblem solving.
Speaker 3 (09:19):
And I think you're right, we do get off track so
easily with so many things.
Right, it could be studentbehaviors, it could be new
initiative, it could be atechnology thing coming in, it
could be cell phone use, itcould be so many things.
And so how do we think ofsomething as okay, this is kind
(09:46):
of the direction we want to go.
It almost makes me feel like asimpler way of thinking, right,
because we're not striving forperfection, we're not saying you
have to do all these things andmake sure your checklist is all
checked off, but we're going inthat direction.
(10:07):
So, as long as you're going inthis direction, then you're on
the right track.
So, which I I think could couldmake people feel like, what are
you even talking about?
That feels very nebulous, like,very like what?
(10:27):
What does that even mean?
But if you think, if you bringit to, like your classroom
teaching experience right, andif you have planned a lesson or
something I don't even likecalling them lessons, but you
know like you have some kind ofexperience planned for your
students and you're like, well,that didn't quite go the way I
anticipated.
(10:50):
But instead of thinking of thatas a complete failure because it
didn't work out as planned,what are the ish pieces of that?
So what pieces of the thingthat did not go as expected did
go as expected?
And so pick out some of thosepieces, like, oh yeah, you know
what the kids actually didfollow all the instructions,
(11:12):
they got all their materials.
They did, they followed theprotocol.
What was the thing that brokedown?
And so this could be a way ofhelping us analyze things that
aren't working or don't work forwhatever reason.
So, yeah, there was, it wasishy, you know, there was, it
was kind of there, but what'sthe thing that threw it off?
(11:36):
And so I think, if we then takethat bigger picture right so
this is the culture we're tryingto build in the school and it
kind of feels like that we're in, you know, we're ish getting
there.
What's the thing that's notfeeling like we're quite there?
Speaker 2 (11:57):
so it could be a way to to just think about those,
those bigger picture things andevaluate them or analyze them
for sure, and for individualswho feel like if it's not this
perfect image that is in thebook or in my head, then it's a
(12:19):
complete failure.
Yeah, we can move away fromthat, because if we look at it
with that ish viewpoint of it'snot quite there, but there was
some good stuff in it, we'regetting there, what can we learn
from it?
I think that can be a goodplace to move from, away from
(12:39):
this idea of like it's all ornothing.
If it's not perfect, yeah, it'snot good enough.
You know, I think that could bereally helpful, because I know
there are a lot of I thinkthere's a lot of teachers out
there who who do like to have avery clear vision and really
want to control what's going onand what you know.
(13:00):
Maybe, maybe not necessarilywhat the product is, but it
could definitely be the product,but it might also be the path
that you take to get there andthey, they really have a clear
vision and it's got to be thator it's a failure.
And I think this ish thinkingcan help us sort of filter out
the good and the bad and andhelp us analyze, because we all
(13:24):
know theoretically, we all know,that we learn so much from
making mistakes that it's a hugeopportunity for growth and
development is making mistakes,but I don't necessarily think we
all live and die by thatknowledge.
I think it's fine for somebodyelse to fail and make mistakes.
(13:45):
It's not okay for me to failand make mistakes.
It's not okay for me to failand make mistakes.
So, yeah, it could be a useful.
It could be a useful reminderfor a lot of people.
Speaker 3 (13:54):
I think so and I I do think that.
I mean, we know thatperfectionist tendencies come
from somewhere, right, but it isvery prevalent in the teaching
world, right, like you see itoften physically, in the
physical environment, the wayteachers set up their spaces.
(14:16):
You see it in just making surethat every student gets what
they need, which is great,because that's what we're going
for.
But sometimes it's in theplanning process and we can go
overboard too, right, and thatgets exhausting.
So if we a lot of times inplanning I remember you know
(14:41):
when we would plan for inSingapore, for in Singapore, you
kind of plan, you know half ofyour time and then cause you
know that something is going tobleed over into the next day,
right, so like if your plan, weall know that over-planning is
(15:02):
good because then you'reprepared for whatever, but there
does have to be some buffer inthere that we've talked about
buffer time before, where you dohave the wiggle room, and so,
like I'm thinking of likeplanning as ish time, right,
where you're like, here are myideas for how we're going to
(15:23):
achieve this.
It might look like this, itmight look like this, might look
like this.
It might look like this.
It might look like this and,however it turns out, it's going
to be fine because it's alearning experience for me as
the teacher in planning this way, and for the students.
So I mean, we've been in theclassrooms for a long time, so
(15:45):
it's sometimes a little biteasier, like that might feel
like winging it to some people,but it's really not.
It's like you do have a plan,right, you have a plan, but
you're like this might not workin this moment with depends on
how the kids are coming in, itdepends on different factors,
who's there, who's not there,and so you might have to shift.
(16:06):
So I feel like some of ourplanning pieces might feel kind
of ishy because we're like okay,we have the ideas, but I'm not
going to get super meticulousabout certain things because I
might have to flex, I might needto change, and I don't want to
have wasted my time getting allthis stuff prepared or whatever
(16:31):
if it's not going to work Now.
That doesn't mean I'm not goingto plan and prepare what I need
, obviously, but we can gooverboard, like I said, with
like over planning too much andgetting in too much into the
weeds and details, about havingexactly everything and expecting
(16:53):
it to go that way as well so,yeah, and I think we've talked
before about planning bell tobell and how, yeah, you're
setting yourself up for failurefor failure and if not, failure
frustration because, yeah, morethan anything, something's gonna
(17:13):
mess you up.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
If you've planned every minute of the day or the
week, um, yeah, you're not,you're not allowing for anything
coming sideways at you orresponding to the kids that are
in front of you.
You know, you're not allowingfor any of that.
So it that mindset while itmight feel like I'm prepared,
(17:35):
I'm ready, I've got this isactually leading us down that
path of of, you know, control,and it has to be exactly what
I'm thinking um, because I think, I think it.
I can't really imagine someoneplanning in that level but also
(17:56):
being okay with it going off therails.
Do you know what I mean?
Those two things don't sort ofgo together.
I can't imagine someone who'sput all of that time in planning
bell to bell for the whole weekis also then like but it didn't
work out like that.
Those two don't really gotogether, do they?
Speaker 3 (18:16):
no?
No, unless you're doing it forcompliance, which I've had to do
, right, which is, we know, likea big colossal waste of time,
most of the time, most of thetime, but like, yeah, anyway,
that's another story.
Speaker 2 (18:31):
That is another story .
Speaker 3 (18:33):
Yes, yeah.
So I think what stands out forme a lot with an ish way of
thinking is that it's having astep back from being in all the
details, right, so it's easy toget really sucked into all your
(18:55):
everyday things and not have amoment to, like, step back and
evaluate what's happened.
So there might be, you know,one of those practices as a good
teacher is you do need a bit oftime to just sit and think
through what's been going well,what didn't work, and so this
(19:16):
might be a way that you canframe your thinking right so you
can think was this ish?
Was I on the right track?
When am I going to have my ishtime?
Something like that right, justas a kind of way to reflect
almost am I in the arena or am Iway out in left field with
(19:39):
things?
Openness of this, which againcan feel scary for educators who
need more of the control, right, because this is definitely a
mindset thing, and so, like Iwas telling you earlier about
(20:28):
no-transcript a good analogyhere it's almost like some kind
of barrier, like a wall orsomething, where it's like I'm
going to teach my kids in thisway, but I'm not going to learn
in this way because this is howI have always learned in the
past and I don't need toexperience that.
But I'll do that for mystudents and so that can take
(20:53):
away some of that ish.
I think because you're becomingmore rigid in I mean, obviously
you know how you think youlearn best, but also if you're
going to be teaching otherpeople, that's different, right?
So it's one thing to like takea course on something and it's
another to be take a workshop onteaching strategies and not
(21:17):
participate in the strategies.
Does that make sense?
I think so, yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
It would be a teacher giving feedback and an
opportunity for students to redoor resubmit based on feedback,
but then expecting their firstattempt to be the final attempt.
Yeah, it would be.
(21:45):
Yeah, I'm trying to teach youthat you can learn and grow and
iterate and improve, but forexpectations for myself, it
needs to be done right the firsttime, and so that ish really
frees people up, I think, to letgo a little bit and apply the
(22:08):
same ideas to themselves.
Like it doesn't have to beperfect the first time.
I can grow and learn frommistakes, just like my students
can.
So, hopefully, hopefully,that's the message we're getting
across to everybody today, thatwe're not just saying do a
half-hearted job at everythingright no, not at all.
Speaker 3 (22:32):
Not at all, because this is this does require a lot
of thought.
You know there is a lot ofcritical thinking involved in
getting to like transport.
This is a transformation ofyour mindset and it's not an
easy process.
So, like, I'm definitely stillfixed in some things just with
everyday life, but I tried.
(22:54):
You know, I I always am likeokay, I try to be open, but also
I'm just gonna do this but Ithink that we could all learn a
little bit there, I think rightexactly, exactly for sure.
So I think any pare downpointers on this idea of ish
(23:17):
tammy well, I think that justgive it a try, right, like even
just read the peter reynoldsbook yeah, if you haven't read
it and get a sense of what we'retalking about, this idea,
through that story.
Speaker 2 (23:38):
I was thinking as well.
Something that I've talkedabout repeatedly on the podcast
is, you know, having your threepriorities for the day.
I wonder if you could ish thathabit.
And so, instead of, like, I'mgoing to have three perfect,
complete to-dos done by the endof the day, what would the ish
(24:02):
version of that look like?
Oh, yeah, yeah.
What is something that I'd becomfortable finishing in my day
without it having to be justright the first time?
Speaker 3 (24:18):
I think I live in that realm, I think that's where
I'm at.
Okay, yeah, yeah.
And it feels okay because Iknow that you know, I know how I
operate with deadlines and Iknow how I can be flexible with
things and still get thingsaccomplished, so that that's
(24:39):
very doable.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I totally know what you mean.
I think, if I'm, I think I needto work on the ish approach.
When I am sharing somethingwith others the first time, I
think I try and edit and revisea little bit too much and maybe
(25:05):
I need to have that ish approachof like why don't I?
Speaker 3 (25:09):
share what I have.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
Yeah, here's a draft.
Speaker 2 (25:10):
Let me share what I have, get some feedback and make
it even better than what Icould have edited and revised
myself.
Speaker 3 (25:17):
Yes, yeah, relatable for sure.
I think we've lived in thattogether as well.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
Yes, yes, we have.
Speaker 3 (25:25):
Well, I liked this conversation and, like you said,
I hope our listeners havegotten what we hoped to share,
even though it does feel likekind of not.
It doesn't feel concrete in away, because we are talking
about fuzzy borders, fuzzy linesalmost, but I mean it's
(25:48):
something to think about.
Speaker 2 (25:49):
for sure it is definitely a mindset thing,
absolutely yeah, definitely.
Well, thank you so much,christine I thank you and hope
everyone has a go at an ishapproach to their work.
This episode is sponsored byPlan Z Education Services,
(26:12):
supporting educators withforward-thinking professional
learning that puts both studentimpact and teacher wellness at
the center.
Driven by a vision to teachless, impact more, they help
educators find purpose,prioritize what matters and
simplify their practice.
Learn more at planzeducationcom.
Speaker 1 (26:33):
Thank you for listening to the Minimalist
Educator Podcast.
Join Christine and Tammy andguests again next time for more
conversations about how tosimplify and clarify the
responsibilities and tasks inyour role.
If today's episode helped yourethink, reimagine, reduce or
realign something in yourpractice, share it in a comment
(26:53):
or with a colleague.
For resources and updates,visit planzeducationcom and
subscribe to receive weeklyemails.
Until next time, keep it simpleand stay intentional.
Welcome to the Minimalist Educator podcast,
where the focus is on aless-is-more approach to
education.
Join your hosts, christineArnold and Tammy Musiawski,
authors of the MinimalistTeacher and your School
Leadership.
Edit a minimalist approach torethinking your school ecosystem
each week, as they explorepractical ways to simplify your
(00:36):
work, sharpen your focus andamplify what matters most so you
can teach and lead with greaterclarity, purpose and joy.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
What if good enough really was good enough?
In today's episode, we'regiving perfectionism the side
eye and exploring the power ofthe ish approach in education,
Because sometimes done-ish,ready-ish and perfect-ish are
exactly what we and our studentsneed to thrive are exactly what
we and our students need tothrive.
Welcome everybody to thisweek's episode of the Minimalist
(01:09):
Educator podcast.
Speaker 3 (01:14):
Welcome.
Welcome, Tammy.
How are you doing this week?
I'm doing well.
I'm looking forward to thisconversation, as always, but I
like the connection that youthought of for this one, so I'm
looking forward to it.
How are you?
Speaker 2 (01:27):
I'm good, I'm excited as well to have a chat about
this and see where ourconversation takes us today.
So I'm going to call thisepisode the ish episode.
Tammy, I'm naming it now.
It's the ish episode.
Yes, love it.
Tammy and I were chatting weboth not in a coordinated
(01:49):
approach in any way, shape orform but we both happened to
recently read the book Math Ishby Jo Bowler, which is you know,
we're not here to promote herwork, necessarily, but it just
so happens that we've both beenpicking up and reading that book
recently, and in it she alsomakes reference to the picture
(02:10):
book-ish by Peter H Reynolds aswell, and it got us thinking
about how we can apply this sortof thinking to education and
our work as teachers as well.
So why don't I start withtalking about the picture book?
Yeah, and then maybe you cantell us a little bit about how
(02:34):
the ish comes through with JoBowler's work.
Sure, is that all right?
Yeah, so if you don't know thepicture book Ish by Peter H
Reynolds, definitely pick it upand have a look.
It's a lovely one and, withoutspoiling the plot too much, in
it there's a character who likesto draw but becomes concerned
(02:59):
that the drawings aren'taccurate or perfect enough and
feels a bit put off by it, untilanother character says it's not
quite right, it's not quite avase, but it's vase-ish, and
this inspires the main characterto feel more comfortable and
(03:22):
confident about not having aperfect drawing, but having an
ish drawing, which is a reallylovely thought it really is.
Speaker 3 (03:34):
It's such a great book, um, I I've read it at the
start of school years as a wayto just you kind of embrace a
growth mindset with students tosay it's okay that we might make
a mistake or, you know, wearen't good at something yet,
(03:55):
but we'll get there becausewe're just starting this year
together.
We're just, you know, bringingwhat we have and growing from
there.
And so it was kind of fun tosee this new book by Jo Bowler,
who we've both read.
You know other books by her inthe past and we know her
philosophy and research aroundteaching math, and so this book
(04:17):
Math-ish is really about howmath is just much more than
calculating and being right orwrong and math being just like
this narrow set of ideas.
It's much more about makingsense of problems.
It's about thinking throughsituations and having different
(04:43):
strategies to use to solveproblems and knowing that
there's multiple ways to look atsomething, because what we're
doing when we're solvingmathematical type problems is we
are looking for connections andwe're looking for patterns, and
those are things that ourbrains are wired to do anyway.
Our brain is wired to look forpatterns in something, and so if
(05:07):
we think about math in thismore open way, it becomes a
space that's creative for peopleversus black and white.
So it's not just to solve orcompute something just to solve
(05:28):
or compute something.
It's about making sense ofproblems, thinking about them
creatively, looking at differentvisual representations of what
math can look like for people,Because our brains, yes, they do
certain things similarly, butmany people have different
visualizations of how somethingcan look or how our pattern
grows.
And so when we think about mathin that way, it's much more
(05:52):
open and invites everybody intothat, because everybody can say
something or show somethingabout their understanding of
math, their understanding ofmath.
So it aligns with PeterReynolds' book because it really
(06:13):
is about having an open mindabout math right.
In the other book it's about art, but it doesn't matter.
We're looking about ish in thebigger picture of things, like
you said.
So how can we apply thisbroader way of thinking into
what we do in education in areally complex space where a lot
(06:34):
of times we are looking forexcellence?
We're looking for we don't sayperfection, but sometimes that
word excellence means the samething to people, because maybe
that standard is just reallyhard for people and how do we
(06:54):
kind of still get peopleachieving expectations?
But it is, it's not going tolook the same for everyone
(07:15):
mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
There's a part of the book math ish where mm-hmm she
discusses how you know howimportant estimation is and how
we need to do that.
But she gives this specificexample of how.
She's seen examples over andover again of students who are
(07:38):
using the procedure or using analgorithm getting a completely
wrong answer.
But because they haven'testimated or thought about it,
they've just applied a standardprocedure, they can't see how
wrong their answer is.
They lose sight of what areasonable answer would be.
(08:00):
Yeah, and I think that is areally good analogy for a lot of
what we do in teaching.
You know, like, if you're socaught up in like okay, I'm
following the rules, I'mfollowing the rules, I'm doing
what I've been asked to do, youcould very easily go down a path
of losing track of what isreasonable, what is you know and
(08:24):
what good can look like.
Um, when we're just stuck inthis idea of like I've got to,
I've got to follow the content,I've got to do coverage, I've
got to follow all of these rulesand expectations and what's
being asked of me, you can losetrack of what is reasonable and
I think you know.
(08:45):
When we're talking aboutminimalism in education, I think
this idea of bringing back theish could be a really powerful
notion to ground us back inagain, of letting go of certain
things that aren't serving usand getting back to what is
(09:05):
reasonable as she says, to whatis reasonable as she says yeah,
yeah, I think that's such agreat word, reasonable, right,
because that's one of the mathpractice standards you know,
like applying reasoning toproblem solving.
Speaker 3 (09:19):
And I think you're right, we do get off track so
easily with so many things.
Right, it could be studentbehaviors, it could be new
initiative, it could be atechnology thing coming in, it
could be cell phone use, itcould be so many things.
And so how do we think ofsomething as okay, this is kind
(09:46):
of the direction we want to go.
It almost makes me feel like asimpler way of thinking, right,
because we're not striving forperfection, we're not saying you
have to do all these things andmake sure your checklist is all
checked off, but we're going inthat direction.
(10:07):
So, as long as you're going inthis direction, then you're on
the right track.
So, which I I think could couldmake people feel like, what are
you even talking about?
That feels very nebulous, like,very like what?
(10:27):
What does that even mean?
But if you think, if you bringit to, like your classroom
teaching experience right, andif you have planned a lesson or
something I don't even likecalling them lessons, but you
know like you have some kind ofexperience planned for your
students and you're like, well,that didn't quite go the way I
anticipated.
(10:50):
But instead of thinking of thatas a complete failure because it
didn't work out as planned,what are the ish pieces of that?
So what pieces of the thingthat did not go as expected did
go as expected?
And so pick out some of thosepieces, like, oh yeah, you know
what the kids actually didfollow all the instructions,
(11:12):
they got all their materials.
They did, they followed theprotocol.
What was the thing that brokedown?
And so this could be a way ofhelping us analyze things that
aren't working or don't work forwhatever reason.
So, yeah, there was, it wasishy, you know, there was, it
was kind of there, but what'sthe thing that threw it off?
(11:36):
And so I think, if we then takethat bigger picture right so
this is the culture we're tryingto build in the school and it
kind of feels like that we're in, you know, we're ish getting
there.
What's the thing that's notfeeling like we're quite there?
Speaker 2 (11:57):
so it could be a way to to just think about those,
those bigger picture things andevaluate them or analyze them
for sure, and for individualswho feel like if it's not this
perfect image that is in thebook or in my head, then it's a
(12:19):
complete failure.
Yeah, we can move away fromthat, because if we look at it
with that ish viewpoint of it'snot quite there, but there was
some good stuff in it, we'regetting there, what can we learn
from it?
I think that can be a goodplace to move from, away from
(12:39):
this idea of like it's all ornothing.
If it's not perfect, yeah, it'snot good enough.
You know, I think that could bereally helpful, because I know
there are a lot of I thinkthere's a lot of teachers out
there who who do like to have avery clear vision and really
want to control what's going onand what you know.
(13:00):
Maybe, maybe not necessarilywhat the product is, but it
could definitely be the product,but it might also be the path
that you take to get there andthey, they really have a clear
vision and it's got to be thator it's a failure.
And I think this ish thinkingcan help us sort of filter out
the good and the bad and andhelp us analyze, because we all
(13:24):
know theoretically, we all know,that we learn so much from
making mistakes that it's a hugeopportunity for growth and
development is making mistakes,but I don't necessarily think we
all live and die by thatknowledge.
I think it's fine for somebodyelse to fail and make mistakes.
(13:45):
It's not okay for me to failand make mistakes.
It's not okay for me to failand make mistakes.
So, yeah, it could be a useful.
It could be a useful reminderfor a lot of people.
Speaker 3 (13:54):
I think so and I I do think that.
I mean, we know thatperfectionist tendencies come
from somewhere, right, but it isvery prevalent in the teaching
world, right, like you see itoften physically, in the
physical environment, the wayteachers set up their spaces.
(14:16):
You see it in just making surethat every student gets what
they need, which is great,because that's what we're going
for.
But sometimes it's in theplanning process and we can go
overboard too, right, and thatgets exhausting.
So if we a lot of times inplanning I remember you know
(14:41):
when we would plan for inSingapore, for in Singapore, you
kind of plan, you know half ofyour time and then cause you
know that something is going tobleed over into the next day,
right, so like if your plan, weall know that over-planning is
(15:02):
good because then you'reprepared for whatever, but there
does have to be some buffer inthere that we've talked about
buffer time before, where you dohave the wiggle room, and so,
like I'm thinking of likeplanning as ish time, right,
where you're like, here are myideas for how we're going to
(15:23):
achieve this.
It might look like this, itmight look like this, might look
like this.
It might look like this.
It might look like this and,however it turns out, it's going
to be fine because it's alearning experience for me as
the teacher in planning this way, and for the students.
So I mean, we've been in theclassrooms for a long time, so
(15:45):
it's sometimes a little biteasier, like that might feel
like winging it to some people,but it's really not.
It's like you do have a plan,right, you have a plan, but
you're like this might not workin this moment with depends on
how the kids are coming in, itdepends on different factors,
who's there, who's not there,and so you might have to shift.
(16:06):
So I feel like some of ourplanning pieces might feel kind
of ishy because we're like okay,we have the ideas, but I'm not
going to get super meticulousabout certain things because I
might have to flex, I might needto change, and I don't want to
have wasted my time getting allthis stuff prepared or whatever
(16:31):
if it's not going to work Now.
That doesn't mean I'm not goingto plan and prepare what I need
, obviously, but we can gooverboard, like I said, with
like over planning too much andgetting in too much into the
weeds and details, about havingexactly everything and expecting
(16:53):
it to go that way as well so,yeah, and I think we've talked
before about planning bell tobell and how, yeah, you're
setting yourself up for failurefor failure and if not, failure
frustration because, yeah, morethan anything, something's gonna
(17:13):
mess you up.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
If you've planned every minute of the day or the
week, um, yeah, you're not,you're not allowing for anything
coming sideways at you orresponding to the kids that are
in front of you.
You know, you're not allowingfor any of that.
So it that mindset while itmight feel like I'm prepared,
(17:35):
I'm ready, I've got this isactually leading us down that
path of of, you know, control,and it has to be exactly what
I'm thinking um, because I think, I think it.
I can't really imagine someoneplanning in that level but also
(17:56):
being okay with it going off therails.
Do you know what I mean?
Those two things don't sort ofgo together.
I can't imagine someone who'sput all of that time in planning
bell to bell for the whole weekis also then like but it didn't
work out like that.
Those two don't really gotogether, do they?
Speaker 3 (18:16):
no?
No, unless you're doing it forcompliance, which I've had to do
, right, which is, we know, likea big colossal waste of time,
most of the time, most of thetime, but like, yeah, anyway,
that's another story.
Speaker 2 (18:31):
That is another story .
Speaker 3 (18:33):
Yes, yeah.
So I think what stands out forme a lot with an ish way of
thinking is that it's having astep back from being in all the
details, right, so it's easy toget really sucked into all your
(18:55):
everyday things and not have amoment to, like, step back and
evaluate what's happened.
So there might be, you know,one of those practices as a good
teacher is you do need a bit oftime to just sit and think
through what's been going well,what didn't work, and so this
(19:16):
might be a way that you canframe your thinking right so you
can think was this ish?
Was I on the right track?
When am I going to have my ishtime?
Something like that right, justas a kind of way to reflect
almost am I in the arena or am Iway out in left field with
(19:39):
things?
Openness of this, which againcan feel scary for educators who
need more of the control, right, because this is definitely a
mindset thing, and so, like Iwas telling you earlier about
(20:28):
no-transcript a good analogyhere it's almost like some kind
of barrier, like a wall orsomething, where it's like I'm
going to teach my kids in thisway, but I'm not going to learn
in this way because this is howI have always learned in the
past and I don't need toexperience that.
But I'll do that for mystudents and so that can take
(20:53):
away some of that ish.
I think because you're becomingmore rigid in I mean, obviously
you know how you think youlearn best, but also if you're
going to be teaching otherpeople, that's different, right?
So it's one thing to like takea course on something and it's
another to be take a workshop onteaching strategies and not
(21:17):
participate in the strategies.
Does that make sense?
I think so, yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
It would be a teacher giving feedback and an
opportunity for students to redoor resubmit based on feedback,
but then expecting their firstattempt to be the final attempt.
Yeah, it would be.
(21:45):
Yeah, I'm trying to teach youthat you can learn and grow and
iterate and improve, but forexpectations for myself, it
needs to be done right the firsttime, and so that ish really
frees people up, I think, to letgo a little bit and apply the
(22:08):
same ideas to themselves.
Like it doesn't have to beperfect the first time.
I can grow and learn frommistakes, just like my students
can.
So, hopefully, hopefully,that's the message we're getting
across to everybody today, thatwe're not just saying do a
half-hearted job at everythingright no, not at all.
Speaker 3 (22:32):
Not at all, because this is this does require a lot
of thought.
You know there is a lot ofcritical thinking involved in
getting to like transport.
This is a transformation ofyour mindset and it's not an
easy process.
So, like, I'm definitely stillfixed in some things just with
everyday life, but I tried.
(22:54):
You know, I I always am likeokay, I try to be open, but also
I'm just gonna do this but Ithink that we could all learn a
little bit there, I think rightexactly, exactly for sure.
So I think any pare downpointers on this idea of ish
(23:17):
tammy well, I think that justgive it a try, right, like even
just read the peter reynoldsbook yeah, if you haven't read
it and get a sense of what we'retalking about, this idea,
through that story.
Speaker 2 (23:38):
I was thinking as well.
Something that I've talkedabout repeatedly on the podcast
is, you know, having your threepriorities for the day.
I wonder if you could ish thathabit.
And so, instead of, like, I'mgoing to have three perfect,
complete to-dos done by the endof the day, what would the ish
(24:02):
version of that look like?
Oh, yeah, yeah.
What is something that I'd becomfortable finishing in my day
without it having to be justright the first time?
Speaker 3 (24:18):
I think I live in that realm, I think that's where
I'm at.
Okay, yeah, yeah.
And it feels okay because Iknow that you know, I know how I
operate with deadlines and Iknow how I can be flexible with
things and still get thingsaccomplished, so that that's
(24:39):
very doable.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I totally know what you mean.
I think, if I'm, I think I needto work on the ish approach.
When I am sharing somethingwith others the first time, I
think I try and edit and revisea little bit too much and maybe
(25:05):
I need to have that ish approachof like why don't I?
Speaker 3 (25:09):
share what I have.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
Yeah, here's a draft.
Speaker 2 (25:10):
Let me share what I have, get some feedback and make
it even better than what Icould have edited and revised
myself.
Speaker 3 (25:17):
Yes, yeah, relatable for sure.
I think we've lived in thattogether as well.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
Yes, yes, we have.
Speaker 3 (25:25):
Well, I liked this conversation and, like you said,
I hope our listeners havegotten what we hoped to share,
even though it does feel likekind of not.
It doesn't feel concrete in away, because we are talking
about fuzzy borders, fuzzy linesalmost, but I mean it's
(25:48):
something to think about.
Speaker 2 (25:49):
for sure it is definitely a mindset thing,
absolutely yeah, definitely.
Well, thank you so much,christine I thank you and hope
everyone has a go at an ishapproach to their work.
This episode is sponsored byPlan Z Education Services,
(26:12):
supporting educators withforward-thinking professional
learning that puts both studentimpact and teacher wellness at
the center.
Driven by a vision to teachless, impact more, they help
educators find purpose,prioritize what matters and
simplify their practice.
Learn more at planzeducationcom.
Speaker 1 (26:33):
Thank you for listening to the Minimalist
Educator Podcast.
Join Christine and Tammy andguests again next time for more
conversations about how tosimplify and clarify the
responsibilities and tasks inyour role.
If today's episode helped yourethink, reimagine, reduce or
realign something in yourpractice, share it in a comment
(26:53):
or with a colleague.
For resources and updates,visit planzeducationcom and
subscribe to receive weeklyemails.
Until next time, keep it simpleand stay intentional.
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