September 23, 2025 • 30 mins
Dr. Helen Kelly shares her journey from workplace safety lawyer to international school principal, and how her personal experience with burnout led to her current work researching educator wellbeing. She offers evidence-based insights about preventing burnout and creating school cultures that support teacher and leader wellbeing.
• Understanding burnout as a continuum that everyone moves along, with engagement at one end and burnout at the other
• Emotional workload and lack of community connection are stronger contributors to burnout than quantitative workload
• Teacher wellbeing directly impacts student outcomes including academic performance, sense of belonging, and non-cognitive skills
• Recovery from burnout requires regular practice of four experiences: psychological detachment, relaxation, control, and mastery
• Post-pandemic challenges include increased student mental health issues and decreased time for staff community building
• Thoughtful school calendaring that anticipates pressure points and prioritizes connection is essential for wellbeing
• Simple interventions like shared meals during professional development days can transform school culture
Start the day with non-work thoughts. The first thing we do in the morning should not be reaching for our phones to check work emails. Delaying work thoughts through activities like stretching, having tea outside, or singing in the shower can positively impact cortisol levels and prepare us to cope better throughout the day.
This episode is sponsored by Plan Z Education.
Buy The Minimalist Teacher book from ASCD+ISTE.
Follow on Instagram @PlanZEducation and @minimalist_ed_podcast.
The Minimalist Educator Podcast is a Plan Z Education Services adventure.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
Welcome to the Minimalist Educator podcast,
where the focus is on aless-is-more approach to
education.
Join your hosts, christineArnold and Tammy Musiawski,
authors of the MinimalistTeacher and your School
Leadership.
Edit a minimalist approach torethinking your school ecosystem
each week, as they explorepractical ways to simplify your
(00:36):
work, sharpen your focus andamplify what matters most so you
can teach and lead with greaterclarity, purpose and joy.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
On this week's episode, we're joined by Dr
Helen Kelly, who speaks to usabout all things educator
well-being.
Her pare-down pointer is tostart the day with
non-work-related thoughts.
Dr Helen Kelly is committed tohelping schools maximise
wellbeing and improve schoolculture.
(01:07):
She led international schoolsin Asia and Europe until she
retired from her work as aprincipal in 2020.
She has been conductingresearch in the field of
educator wellbeing for almost adecade.
Prior to becoming an educator,she spent 10 years as a lawyer
in the field of workplace healthand safety.
From this diverse experience,helen brings a unique and
(01:28):
valuable perspective to her work.
She draws upon her knowledge ofevidence-based practices, her
understanding of the needs ofschool communities and her legal
background to deliverapproaches that are strategic,
effective and have long-termimpact on individual well-being
and school culture, and havelong-term impact on individual
wellbeing and school culture.
Hello and welcome to thisweek's episode of the Minimalist
(01:50):
Educator podcast.
Today, tammy and I are joinedby Dr Helen Kelly.
Welcome, helen.
How are you?
Speaker 3 (01:56):
today.
Hi, christine and Tammy, thanksso much for having me.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Yeah, I'm really really well.
Thank you, thank you, excellent, fantastic.
So I first came across yourwork, uh, through LinkedIn.
Everyone was sort of sharingthe work that you were doing,
the research that you were doing, and I saw you had a, a book.
A school leader school leadersmatter and picked it up, loved
every minute of it, would highlyrecommend it to other people.
And in that book, you share notjust the research and the data
(02:24):
that you have there, but also alittle bit about your personal
journey as well, which is quitean interesting perspective,
coming from something other thaneducation and then getting into
education and researching aswell.
So can you tell us a little bitabout your journey to where you
are now?
Speaker 3 (02:40):
Sure, yeah, my first career was actually as a
solicitor, a lawyer, in the UK,and I worked for a big company
that were famous for their workwith the labour movement, acting
for trade union members who'dhad accidents at work and
suffered from industrialdiseases.
So I always think that that'swhere my interest in workplace
wellbeing began.
(03:01):
It took me a few years toconnect those things you know.
Well-being began.
It took me a few years toconnect those things you know.
And then I wanted to travel andwork, and I was a solicitor, my
husband was an engineer andthose things didn't really go
together.
So we both re-qualified tobecome teachers so that we could
travel and live all over theworld.
So that was what I did, and Iworked in international schools
for about 20 years, and for 15years of that I was a principal
(03:24):
in Hong Kong, in Berlin, inBangkok, and then in 2019, I
became unwell.
I was diagnosed with heartdisease, even though I'm not a
poster child for heart disease,you know, I look after myself,
I'm slim, I'm fit, I'm active, Ihave had a plant based diet for
(03:45):
25 years.
And then I also kind of had toacknowledge, with the support of
professionals, that I'dexperienced an occupational
burnout and, as a result of that, I decided to give up my career
at the age of 55.
So kind of 10 years before Iwould have done anyway.
55.
(04:06):
So kind of 10 years before Iwould have done anyway.
In the few years coming up tothat, about 2013, so about six
years I'd actually beenresearching in the field of
school leader.
Wellbeing started with my EDthesis, and so, you know, it's
one of those things wheredoctors make the worst patients.
I knew all the theory, but itstill happened to me and I think
maybe there was an awareness ofwhat had happened to me because
(04:27):
of my you know, my researchexperience.
And so I retired in June 2020,which was in the middle of the
pandemic and intended to kind ofgrow vegetables and, you know,
have a quiet life.
But people kept contacting meand asking me for support
because, you know, there were somany issues then that were
(04:49):
emerging around well-being.
There was an awareness building, and so this kind of second
stage of my education careerbegan as a an author and a
(05:10):
consultant and researcher andpresenter and all of that stuff,
and so I've been doing that nowfor five years.
Speaker 4 (05:18):
It's such an interesting journey that you've
had, coming from outsideeducation, as you mentioned, and
then coming in and seeing someof those similar types of trends
, and you've been in differentlocations too and seen things
come up.
So what kind of trends come upwhen you're looking at potential
(05:40):
leaders that are just unwell,maybe not even at the point of
burnout yet, but what are someof those things that you saw in
the different locations anddifferent roles that you have
been in?
Speaker 3 (05:54):
Yeah, I mean, I think the research it bears out, the
research, really, you know, theresearch of Maslach and Leiter
into burnout.
You know, everything that I dois very research based.
I always say it's not justbecause I say it is, but because
people who are much more cleverthan I am have dedicated their
lives to this field.
You know, and whilst workloadis absolutely a factor, I think
(06:18):
it's important to understandthat it isn't just about
quantitative workload, it's notjust about the amount of work
that we have to do.
I think, on the whole,principals and teachers in
international schools and inother, you know, what I found
really spans all the kind ofdifferent types of schools, as
well as different countries.
(06:38):
It's really the emotionalworkload that is what takes
people down in the end, and nothaving enough support with that
and the isolation, you know,especially in international
schools where you're away fromyour normal support network and
so you're lonely, you don't haveanyone that you can talk to.
And then, side by side withthat, you know, maslach and
(07:02):
Leiter found that the secondmost common cause of burnout in
education professionals iscommunity.
So not having that community inplace.
And whilst that can happen inschools in London, you know
where people are living in theplace where they come from and
(07:23):
they have a support network.
The school community is stillimportant to them because you
spend a lot of time there, butin international schools it's
even more so because the schoolcommunity is everything and so
feeling that you have thatsupport and connection, that
human connection, and lackingthat I think there are other
(07:44):
factors, but I think those arethe two key factors that make
the impact in the end that notfeeling connected and supported
and the emotional overload.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
You've described as well the burnout as a continuum,
and what I thought was reallyimpactful about that is you
don't have to keep going downthe continuum, you don't have to
follow it all the way to theend.
You can actually take measuresalong the way and turn it around
and so on, or move back andforth sort of thing, in that
continuum.
Can you tell us a?
Speaker 3 (08:17):
little bit more about that.
Yeah well, thatconceptualization isn't mine.
Again, that conceptualizationis from Maslach and Leiter, you
know the foremost researchers inthe field, and they say that
everyone, every employee in theworld, in every kind of job, is
on this continuum somewhere andat one end is engaged.
You know you're, you're notfeeling exhausted, you're
(08:39):
feeling effective and you'refeeling closely connected to
your work.
But during the course of yourcareer, depending upon the
demands that you're feelingclosely connected to your work,
but during the course of yourcareer, depending upon the
demands that you're experiencingand your capacity to cope with
those demands at any given time,you can start moving along that
continuum towards the bad end,which is burnout.
And in between there are otherstages which usually, but not
(09:02):
always, come in the order ofexhaustion, which is beyond just
normally being tired, and thenwhat we call cynicism or
depersonalization, where youstop feeling that connection to
your work and you don't feelthat you believe in it anymore
and I really remember thathappening to me and then
(09:23):
starting to feel ineffective itdoesn't necessarily mean you are
ineffective.
And then starting to feelineffective, it doesn't
necessarily mean you areineffective, but starting to
feel it.
And when those three thingscome together the exhaustion,
the cynicism, depersonalizationand that feeling ineffective.
Once we've got all of thosethree things in place, then
we've reached burnout.
So it's important to understandthat, because we understand
(09:44):
then, as you said, christine,that it isn't inevitable that
burnout happens.
If we can understand the signsand symptoms of those three
aspects of burnout, we can takesteps to address them and to
move us back towards thatengagement end.
And the chances are, at somepoint point we'll move back
again and we'll keep moving backand forth.
(10:07):
But as long as we can kind ofkeep control of it and we don't
let it go too far, then we'll beokay.
What happens with burnout isit's like falling off a cliff.
It takes possibly years to getthere.
Certainly, in my case it wasprobably a decade.
But when it happens in the endit happens so fast you can't
(10:29):
stop it and then it's beyondyour control and all of the
research shows it takes aroundthree years to recover from a
burnout and many, many peoplecan never go back to
experiencing the level ofworkplace stress that they had
prior, experiencing the level ofworkplace stress that they had
prior.
So it's something that we needto take extremely seriously
because the implications forcareer, for wealth, for capacity
(10:52):
to earn a living, all of thosekind of very serious things that
are really affected.
Speaker 4 (10:58):
It makes me sad to know that so many people are on
this continuum at the end, youknow, towards the burnout end.
Yes, and you know, we saw a lotof that during the pandemic,
because there was just so muchlike chaos and people didn't
(11:19):
know what to do collectively,right, we just didn't know what
was happening and we didn't knowwhat to do.
And this might seem like anobvious question, but maybe
there's some things that wehaven't thought about.
But when you're on thiscontinuum near your burnout and
you know the burnout side, whatkind of impact does that have,
(11:43):
or what did you see in yourroles or when you were in that
place that it has on yourcommunity?
So not just your colleagues,but also the impact on students.
Speaker 3 (11:57):
Yeah, okay, I mean, first of all, you're absolutely
right, tammy, about the chaos.
You know that I've alreadymentioned workload and I've
mentioned community, but thereare four other factors that
Maslach and Leiter haveidentified that contribute to
burnout.
I won't go through them all,but probably the third most
important is control.
So if we don't have control andautonomy over our work, then
(12:21):
that is going to help us to movealong that burnout continuum
towards the bad end.
And so during the pandemic wefelt that we didn't have control
.
Interestingly, you know, I'veworked with thousands and
thousands of educators over thelast five years in this kind of
context and some people say theywere actually at their happiest
in the workplace during thepandemic.
I mean certainly in schools inthe UK, where they were going
(12:48):
into school and they wereactually the only people who
were going into work and so theywere feeling that sense of
community and they were notexperiencing the isolation that
others were experiencing.
So you know, there is a kind ofdifferent way of looking at
that.
As far as the community isconcerned, you know it's
(13:09):
interesting.
I just discovered a couple ofdays ago a wonderful report from
the IBO the InternationalBaccalaureate that they've
released in 2024, about schoolteacher wellbeing and they are
absolutely unequivocal about theimpact that this has on student
outcomes.
And I think that we've beenpussyfooting and dancing around
this for years.
We've had some concreteresearch come out of the UK,
(13:31):
from York University, about theimpact on students of being
taught by teachers who burn out.
But what the IBO have done is ameta study where they've
brought together all of theresearch from recent years and
they are absolutely unequivocalabout the impact on the
inability of teachers to connectand be engaged with their
(13:54):
students if they're experiencingproblems with their own
well-being and the impact thatthis has on students.
So when students don't engagewell with their teachers,
obviously that has potential toimpact their academic outcomes,
but it also impacts their senseof belonging, which is something
that we're talking about a lotat the moment and that impacts
(14:15):
their well-being.
We also know from this researchreview that they've done that.
There's concrete evidence toshow that it impacts on
students' non-cognitive skills,you know, such as teamwork and
collaboration and adaptability.
We also know from YorkUniversity that students who are
(14:35):
taught by teachers who areburnt out have higher levels of
blood cholesterol, so they areexperiencing higher levels of
stress.
So, absolutely, you know, if, onthe whole, teachers and school
leaders don't put themselvesfirst and often schools don't
(14:57):
take teacher well-beingseriously enough because they
think it's a nice to have.
Wouldn't it be lovely if ourteachers were, all you know,
feeling wonderful?
But the truth is the bottomline and the IBO again are
unequivocal about this itimpacts the core business of the
school and teacher well-beingis a massive driver of school
(15:20):
success.
Ultimately, and I can't put itmore clearly than that, we have
a very well-respectedorganisation now coming out
clearly and bringing togetherall that research and saying
very, very crystal clearly thisis an issue and I think that's
great's great.
(15:41):
It's very sad, but it's alsogreat to have that evidence
absolutely for sure.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
One of the things that uh jumped out at me about
your book was talking about thatrecovery time or recovery
experiences, and how essentialthat is for a lot of teachers.
Even if they are able to sayI'm leaving work at work, I'm
not taking it home and doingmarking in the evenings or on
the weekend, a lot of teachersare still thinking about their
(16:11):
kiddos, about the work, what doI have to do tomorrow, what's
happening next week?
And and you really highlighthow important it is to have
other experiences and time goingon in our life Can you tell us
a little bit more there?
Speaker 3 (16:24):
Yeah, I mean again, the research is not mine, you
know, this is a team in Germanywho've dedicated their lives to
this, and they identify fourwork recovery experiences which
they say that we need to beexperiencing regularly and
frequently, not occasionally,and not just in the holidays.
And the first and the mostimportant is psychological
detachment.
So it is that switching offfrom thinking about work in our
(16:48):
non-work time.
And then the second one isrelaxation.
I think we all know what thatis.
The third one is control.
We need to have control overhow we spend our non-work time.
So if we have children orelderly people that we're
responsible for, we need to makesure that we're putting in
place time for ourselves.
(17:08):
And the final one, whichsurprises people, is mastery
experiences, where we need to beexperiencing a sense of
accomplishment, and achievementthat is not connected with our
work.
So that's hobbies and pastimesthat get progressively more
challenging, like learning alanguage or playing a musical
instrument or getting better atmaking things, or you know, to
(17:29):
give you an example, if you'regoing and running around the
park and you're doing 5K andyou're happy to just jog along
at the same pace every time,that's relaxation.
But if you're trying to beatyour time.
That's a mastery experience,and what we know from the
research is that the benefit ofa holiday and many people in the
Northern Hemisphere are justcoming to the end of their
(17:50):
summer break now the benefit ofthat holiday lasts two weeks,
three weeks maximum.
We also know that the benefitof the weekend only lasts till
Tuesday.
So what we need to be doing isengaging in those kinds of work
recovery experiences during theweek, in the evenings and at
weekends every weekend, not justoccasionally and pushing
(18:12):
through to the holidays like wedo is very, very damaging for us
.
Speaker 4 (18:18):
One of the things that we often talk about is
calendaring, and so it'simportant to put some of these
things in your calendar, becausea lot of us live by the Google
calendar or Outlook, and so whenyou were a school leader, how
did you ensure that?
Speaker 3 (18:39):
because you were on the road to burnout, but how did
you trying to do some of thesethings or support your community
in doing that, because it'syeah, it's interesting to me
that you mentioned the wordcalendaring because when I was
preparing a little bit mentallyearlier, when I was in the
shower for this and I wasthinking, if you know, they
(19:00):
might ask me what's one strategyand for it's calendaring.
So this isn't just aboutcalendaring in your personal
life, but it's about theresponsibility that you take as
a principal for the schoolcalendar over the year and
making sure that you'reattending to those potential
pinch points where people willbecome so overwhelmed with work
(19:20):
that they're not having time toengage in those work recovery
experiences.
And that's when things startwobbling.
And I learned that in my firstyear as a principal, so naively
not attending to that and staffhating me and coming down so
hard on me because I'd madethings so hard for them.
So I think this starts for thewhole school, for the whole
(19:42):
staff, in the previous year whenwe're setting the calendar up
and we're thinking about what'shappening across the year and
collaborating with staff aroundthat, rather than thinking that
you know it all and you've gotthis covered and being prepared
to learn from what went wrongthe year before, so that we
don't have things backing up andbacking up and people becoming
(20:04):
overwhelmed.
But then, as far as your ownpersonal situation is concerned,
it has to be about planning andit has to be about being very
firm about those boundaries andthose routines.
You know, we know, we know fromthe wonderful book Atomic Habits
, which is one of the best booksI can recommend for someone
(20:24):
who's trying to get their housein order is that it's all about
regularity and consistency increating new habits so that
those habits become the norm andthen they become
non-negotiables for you.
You know, I think if we justwhat I've learned over the years
working with many educators isthat we know all of this it's
(20:48):
not rocket science and thesethis inner voice is there, but
we push the inner voice down andwe ignore it and what we need
to do is pay attention to thatinner voice.
This isn't healthy for me.
I wonder what this is doing.
Ok, I'm going to put somethingin place and I'm going to do is
pay attention to that innervoice.
This isn't healthy for me.
I wonder what this is doing.
Okay, I'm going to putsomething in place and I'm going
to do it, and this is apriority.
And if you can't exerciseself-care because you feel
(21:11):
guilty and you feel that itisn't right that you should be
putting yourself first.
Go back to what I said twoquestions ago about what we now
know about the impacts of thison students.
You know, I like to think forschool leaders of self-care as
being a core leadershipattribute, and I think educators
(21:32):
of all kinds need to think ofit as being the core attribute
at the center of their practice.
Is that we're looking afterourselves because it matters to
you and your family, but alsobecause it matters to your
students and to the school.
You know you, you need to lookafter yourself so that you are
(21:52):
there to give your best forothers you are fit to serve.
Speaker 2 (21:57):
Just going back to the school calendar thing, 100%
agree.
There are so many things thathappen in the year that are
predictable that we should beable to see coming and work
other things around it so thatwhen things do pop up
unannounced or unexpected, we'renot all rushing around like
headless chickens, right?
Speaker 3 (22:17):
Absolutely.
But you know there's also theunpredictability isn't there,
and that's where we come back tothe pandemic.
You know there's a chapter inmy book about working through
crises, you know.
So those predictable thingsthat we can control, let's be
sensible about them, let's notplan to do too much and let's
collaborate over because oneperson can't see the whole year.
(22:40):
You've got to pick it up andlook at it from so many
different directions and youneed collaboration and input
from others in order to do that.
And then, if we don't build thecalendar so that we're flat out
if unexpected things come,we've got a little bit of give.
Things do come along again.
It's essential that wecollaborate.
(23:00):
We listen to others, we listento the issues that they're
having and how it is from theirperspective.
We presume good intent, ratherthan presuming that people are
lazy and they don't want to workhard.
We presume that they'reconsummate professionals who are
giving their best and ifthey're raising an issue, it's
because there is a genuineconcern and we listen to that
(23:22):
and we address it.
We don't have to come up withall the answers ourselves.
The staff have the answers theyknow.
We just need to listen to them.
We need to tune in.
Speaker 4 (23:32):
What are you noticing now, post-pandemic, in the work
that you're doing with schools?
Are you seeing some of the sametypes of things?
I guess we could like maybecategorize it like pre-pandemic,
during pandemic and post.
Are you seeing an increase inburnout or, like this, awareness
(23:54):
is helping people recognize it?
What's happening there?
Speaker 3 (23:57):
No, there's definitely an increase, and I
think that it isn't just thatwe're more.
An element of it, of course,tammy, is that we're more
willing to talk about thesethings.
Now there's less stigma,there's a lot more being written
and said and spoken aboutmental health, and a lot of high
profile people are prepared totalk about it, and so that's
taken the stigma away.
But it isn't just that.
(24:18):
It's a couple of things we aresuffering.
We are experiencing a falloutfrom the pandemic with students,
so what we're seeing are morestudents experiencing mental
health issues, which has put inan enormous amount of strain on
the system and on individual,individual teachers and leaders.
We're seeing high rates ofabsenteeism with the students,
(24:46):
more school refusal.
We're seeing a lot morebehaviour problems coming to the
surface, a lot more specialeducational needs coming to the
surface, and this is reallyputting everyone under an
enormous amount of pressure.
So I think that's where some ofit's coming from.
I think we're also seeing andit's interesting how I see this
(25:08):
in pretty much every school thatI work with all over the world,
regardless of whether they'rein a level of high deprivation
or they're one of the wealthiestschools in the world is this
desperation for connection andthis reduction in the time
available for community buildingand for people to be connected
with each other.
(25:29):
And that's a real shame, becausethe research shows and also my
own experience of sitting forhundreds of hours in focus
groups, listening to teachersand TAs and admin staff talk
about their experience in theworkplace is that if people feel
(25:49):
connected to their colleaguesand there is a positive
workplace culture, they're muchbetter able to manage and cope
with the high levels of workload.
When it all starts to wobbleand go wrong is when the
workplace culture is negative.
And the research shows fromboth schools in the UK and
international schools, that themajority of educators feel that
(26:13):
their workplace culture isnegative for a variety of
reasons.
So if we're constantly you youknow snipping away at
professional development time sothat we're no longer providing
opportunities during those daysfor people to come together and
(26:34):
build community, because insteadwe're putting learning in place
, people don't feel connected asmuch as they used to and that
is having a devastating effect.
And in the schools that I'vebeen supporting, helping them to
put that time back, you see aninstant impact.
Speaker 2 (26:57):
So interesting, isn't it?
Because I feel like you oftenhear from teachers like don't
make me do team building, don'tmake me share out how I'm
feeling or checking in with my.
But there you go.
There's that evidence that,over and over again, is I see
the people in my corridor, but Idon't see anybody else for
(27:25):
weeks and weeks and weeks.
Speaker 3 (27:26):
And so if, in the in-service training day, what
we've done is put in place alunch where everyone's available
at the same time, the school'sprovided some food and we've
been given an hour where we canall sit down together and talk,
it seems like something sosimple, yet people appreciate
that so much.
Just those little things andletting those things go.
(27:48):
We think, oh, they don't matter, they're not important, they're
just small things.
But I think what we have toacknowledge is that the little
things are the big things andthese small ways of connecting
with each other aretransformational, and I don't
use that word lightly.
Speaker 4 (28:08):
Thank you, helen, for just all of your insights
around the research you've done,your experience, what you see.
We're at the point in the showwhere we ask our guests for a
pare-down pointer, and maybethat was just it there, but just
a quick tip or strategy for ourlisteners that they can take
away from the show, right, Ithink.
Speaker 3 (28:28):
If I'm going to go with one thing that I think
helps more than anything else,it's start the day with non-work
thoughts.
So this is a way that we createboundaries between home and
work.
So the first thing we do in themorning should not be reached
to the bedside table and pick upthe phone and look at our work
emails.
The longer that we can delaythat, the better.
(28:50):
So if we can get up, we canspend five minutes stretching,
we can have a cup of tea out onthe patio.
If it's warm enough, withoutany technology, we can have a
shower and sing in the shower.
We can do anything that meanswe're not starting the day with
this.
That will have a massive impacton our cortisol levels and on
(29:11):
our preparation and the way thatwe cope with things throughout
the whole day.
And it sounds so simple, butit's really effective.
Speaker 4 (29:19):
Thank you so much, Helen.
I'm doing that tomorrow.
Speaker 3 (29:23):
Good.
Speaker 4 (29:27):
Thanks for being with us this week, Helen.
We appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
It's been an absolute pleasure.
Speaker 1 (29:58):
Thank you for listening to the Minimalist
Educator podcast.
Join Christine and Tammy andguests again next time for more
conversations about how tosimplify and clarify the
responsibilities and tasks inyour role.
If today's episode helped yourethink, reimagine, reduce or
realign something in yourpractice, share it in a comment
(30:19):
or with a colleague in yourpractice.
Share it in a comment or with acolleague.
For resources and updates,visit planzeducationcom and
subscribe to receive weeklyemails.
Until next time, keep it simpleand stay intentional.
Thank you.
Welcome to the Minimalist Educator podcast,
where the focus is on aless-is-more approach to
education.
Join your hosts, christineArnold and Tammy Musiawski,
authors of the MinimalistTeacher and your School
Leadership.
Edit a minimalist approach torethinking your school ecosystem
each week, as they explorepractical ways to simplify your
(00:36):
work, sharpen your focus andamplify what matters most so you
can teach and lead with greaterclarity, purpose and joy.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
On this week's episode, we're joined by Dr
Helen Kelly, who speaks to usabout all things educator
well-being.
Her pare-down pointer is tostart the day with
non-work-related thoughts.
Dr Helen Kelly is committed tohelping schools maximise
wellbeing and improve schoolculture.
(01:07):
She led international schoolsin Asia and Europe until she
retired from her work as aprincipal in 2020.
She has been conductingresearch in the field of
educator wellbeing for almost adecade.
Prior to becoming an educator,she spent 10 years as a lawyer
in the field of workplace healthand safety.
From this diverse experience,helen brings a unique and
(01:28):
valuable perspective to her work.
She draws upon her knowledge ofevidence-based practices, her
understanding of the needs ofschool communities and her legal
background to deliverapproaches that are strategic,
effective and have long-termimpact on individual well-being
and school culture, and havelong-term impact on individual
wellbeing and school culture.
Hello and welcome to thisweek's episode of the Minimalist
(01:50):
Educator podcast.
Today, tammy and I are joinedby Dr Helen Kelly.
Welcome, helen.
How are you?
Speaker 3 (01:56):
today.
Hi, christine and Tammy, thanksso much for having me.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Yeah, I'm really really well.
Thank you, thank you, excellent, fantastic.
So I first came across yourwork, uh, through LinkedIn.
Everyone was sort of sharingthe work that you were doing,
the research that you were doing, and I saw you had a, a book.
A school leader school leadersmatter and picked it up, loved
every minute of it, would highlyrecommend it to other people.
And in that book, you share notjust the research and the data
(02:24):
that you have there, but also alittle bit about your personal
journey as well, which is quitean interesting perspective,
coming from something other thaneducation and then getting into
education and researching aswell.
So can you tell us a little bitabout your journey to where you
are now?
Speaker 3 (02:40):
Sure, yeah, my first career was actually as a
solicitor, a lawyer, in the UK,and I worked for a big company
that were famous for their workwith the labour movement, acting
for trade union members who'dhad accidents at work and
suffered from industrialdiseases.
So I always think that that'swhere my interest in workplace
wellbeing began.
(03:01):
It took me a few years toconnect those things you know.
Well-being began.
It took me a few years toconnect those things you know.
And then I wanted to travel andwork, and I was a solicitor, my
husband was an engineer andthose things didn't really go
together.
So we both re-qualified tobecome teachers so that we could
travel and live all over theworld.
So that was what I did, and Iworked in international schools
for about 20 years, and for 15years of that I was a principal
(03:24):
in Hong Kong, in Berlin, inBangkok, and then in 2019, I
became unwell.
I was diagnosed with heartdisease, even though I'm not a
poster child for heart disease,you know, I look after myself,
I'm slim, I'm fit, I'm active, Ihave had a plant based diet for
(03:45):
25 years.
And then I also kind of had toacknowledge, with the support of
professionals, that I'dexperienced an occupational
burnout and, as a result of that, I decided to give up my career
at the age of 55.
So kind of 10 years before Iwould have done anyway.
55.
(04:06):
So kind of 10 years before Iwould have done anyway.
In the few years coming up tothat, about 2013, so about six
years I'd actually beenresearching in the field of
school leader.
Wellbeing started with my EDthesis, and so, you know, it's
one of those things wheredoctors make the worst patients.
I knew all the theory, but itstill happened to me and I think
maybe there was an awareness ofwhat had happened to me because
(04:27):
of my you know, my researchexperience.
And so I retired in June 2020,which was in the middle of the
pandemic and intended to kind ofgrow vegetables and, you know,
have a quiet life.
But people kept contacting meand asking me for support
because, you know, there were somany issues then that were
(04:49):
emerging around well-being.
There was an awareness building, and so this kind of second
stage of my education careerbegan as a an author and a
(05:10):
consultant and researcher andpresenter and all of that stuff,
and so I've been doing that nowfor five years.
Speaker 4 (05:18):
It's such an interesting journey that you've
had, coming from outsideeducation, as you mentioned, and
then coming in and seeing someof those similar types of trends
, and you've been in differentlocations too and seen things
come up.
So what kind of trends come upwhen you're looking at potential
(05:40):
leaders that are just unwell,maybe not even at the point of
burnout yet, but what are someof those things that you saw in
the different locations anddifferent roles that you have
been in?
Speaker 3 (05:54):
Yeah, I mean, I think the research it bears out, the
research, really, you know, theresearch of Maslach and Leiter
into burnout.
You know, everything that I dois very research based.
I always say it's not justbecause I say it is, but because
people who are much more cleverthan I am have dedicated their
lives to this field.
You know, and whilst workloadis absolutely a factor, I think
(06:18):
it's important to understandthat it isn't just about
quantitative workload, it's notjust about the amount of work
that we have to do.
I think, on the whole,principals and teachers in
international schools and inother, you know, what I found
really spans all the kind ofdifferent types of schools, as
well as different countries.
(06:38):
It's really the emotionalworkload that is what takes
people down in the end, and nothaving enough support with that
and the isolation, you know,especially in international
schools where you're away fromyour normal support network and
so you're lonely, you don't haveanyone that you can talk to.
And then, side by side withthat, you know, maslach and
(07:02):
Leiter found that the secondmost common cause of burnout in
education professionals iscommunity.
So not having that community inplace.
And whilst that can happen inschools in London, you know
where people are living in theplace where they come from and
(07:23):
they have a support network.
The school community is stillimportant to them because you
spend a lot of time there, butin international schools it's
even more so because the schoolcommunity is everything and so
feeling that you have thatsupport and connection, that
human connection, and lackingthat I think there are other
(07:44):
factors, but I think those arethe two key factors that make
the impact in the end that notfeeling connected and supported
and the emotional overload.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
You've described as well the burnout as a continuum,
and what I thought was reallyimpactful about that is you
don't have to keep going downthe continuum, you don't have to
follow it all the way to theend.
You can actually take measuresalong the way and turn it around
and so on, or move back andforth sort of thing, in that
continuum.
Can you tell us a?
Speaker 3 (08:17):
little bit more about that.
Yeah well, thatconceptualization isn't mine.
Again, that conceptualizationis from Maslach and Leiter, you
know the foremost researchers inthe field, and they say that
everyone, every employee in theworld, in every kind of job, is
on this continuum somewhere andat one end is engaged.
You know you're, you're notfeeling exhausted, you're
(08:39):
feeling effective and you'refeeling closely connected to
your work.
But during the course of yourcareer, depending upon the
demands that you're feelingclosely connected to your work,
but during the course of yourcareer, depending upon the
demands that you're experiencingand your capacity to cope with
those demands at any given time,you can start moving along that
continuum towards the bad end,which is burnout.
And in between there are otherstages which usually, but not
(09:02):
always, come in the order ofexhaustion, which is beyond just
normally being tired, and thenwhat we call cynicism or
depersonalization, where youstop feeling that connection to
your work and you don't feelthat you believe in it anymore
and I really remember thathappening to me and then
(09:23):
starting to feel ineffective itdoesn't necessarily mean you are
ineffective.
And then starting to feelineffective, it doesn't
necessarily mean you areineffective, but starting to
feel it.
And when those three thingscome together the exhaustion,
the cynicism, depersonalizationand that feeling ineffective.
Once we've got all of thosethree things in place, then
we've reached burnout.
So it's important to understandthat, because we understand
(09:44):
then, as you said, christine,that it isn't inevitable that
burnout happens.
If we can understand the signsand symptoms of those three
aspects of burnout, we can takesteps to address them and to
move us back towards thatengagement end.
And the chances are, at somepoint point we'll move back
again and we'll keep moving backand forth.
(10:07):
But as long as we can kind ofkeep control of it and we don't
let it go too far, then we'll beokay.
What happens with burnout isit's like falling off a cliff.
It takes possibly years to getthere.
Certainly, in my case it wasprobably a decade.
But when it happens in the endit happens so fast you can't
(10:29):
stop it and then it's beyondyour control and all of the
research shows it takes aroundthree years to recover from a
burnout and many, many peoplecan never go back to
experiencing the level ofworkplace stress that they had
prior, experiencing the level ofworkplace stress that they had
prior.
So it's something that we needto take extremely seriously
because the implications forcareer, for wealth, for capacity
(10:52):
to earn a living, all of thosekind of very serious things that
are really affected.
Speaker 4 (10:58):
It makes me sad to know that so many people are on
this continuum at the end, youknow, towards the burnout end.
Yes, and you know, we saw a lotof that during the pandemic,
because there was just so muchlike chaos and people didn't
(11:19):
know what to do collectively,right, we just didn't know what
was happening and we didn't knowwhat to do.
And this might seem like anobvious question, but maybe
there's some things that wehaven't thought about.
But when you're on thiscontinuum near your burnout and
you know the burnout side, whatkind of impact does that have,
(11:43):
or what did you see in yourroles or when you were in that
place that it has on yourcommunity?
So not just your colleagues,but also the impact on students.
Speaker 3 (11:57):
Yeah, okay, I mean, first of all, you're absolutely
right, tammy, about the chaos.
You know that I've alreadymentioned workload and I've
mentioned community, but thereare four other factors that
Maslach and Leiter haveidentified that contribute to
burnout.
I won't go through them all,but probably the third most
important is control.
So if we don't have control andautonomy over our work, then
(12:21):
that is going to help us to movealong that burnout continuum
towards the bad end.
And so during the pandemic wefelt that we didn't have control
.
Interestingly, you know, I'veworked with thousands and
thousands of educators over thelast five years in this kind of
context and some people say theywere actually at their happiest
in the workplace during thepandemic.
I mean certainly in schools inthe UK, where they were going
(12:48):
into school and they wereactually the only people who
were going into work and so theywere feeling that sense of
community and they were notexperiencing the isolation that
others were experiencing.
So you know, there is a kind ofdifferent way of looking at
that.
As far as the community isconcerned, you know it's
(13:09):
interesting.
I just discovered a couple ofdays ago a wonderful report from
the IBO the InternationalBaccalaureate that they've
released in 2024, about schoolteacher wellbeing and they are
absolutely unequivocal about theimpact that this has on student
outcomes.
And I think that we've beenpussyfooting and dancing around
this for years.
We've had some concreteresearch come out of the UK,
(13:31):
from York University, about theimpact on students of being
taught by teachers who burn out.
But what the IBO have done is ameta study where they've
brought together all of theresearch from recent years and
they are absolutely unequivocalabout the impact on the
inability of teachers to connectand be engaged with their
(13:54):
students if they're experiencingproblems with their own
well-being and the impact thatthis has on students.
So when students don't engagewell with their teachers,
obviously that has potential toimpact their academic outcomes,
but it also impacts their senseof belonging, which is something
that we're talking about a lotat the moment and that impacts
(14:15):
their well-being.
We also know from this researchreview that they've done that.
There's concrete evidence toshow that it impacts on
students' non-cognitive skills,you know, such as teamwork and
collaboration and adaptability.
We also know from YorkUniversity that students who are
(14:35):
taught by teachers who areburnt out have higher levels of
blood cholesterol, so they areexperiencing higher levels of
stress.
So, absolutely, you know, if, onthe whole, teachers and school
leaders don't put themselvesfirst and often schools don't
(14:57):
take teacher well-beingseriously enough because they
think it's a nice to have.
Wouldn't it be lovely if ourteachers were, all you know,
feeling wonderful?
But the truth is the bottomline and the IBO again are
unequivocal about this itimpacts the core business of the
school and teacher well-beingis a massive driver of school
(15:20):
success.
Ultimately, and I can't put itmore clearly than that, we have
a very well-respectedorganisation now coming out
clearly and bringing togetherall that research and saying
very, very crystal clearly thisis an issue and I think that's
great's great.
(15:41):
It's very sad, but it's alsogreat to have that evidence
absolutely for sure.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
One of the things that uh jumped out at me about
your book was talking about thatrecovery time or recovery
experiences, and how essentialthat is for a lot of teachers.
Even if they are able to sayI'm leaving work at work, I'm
not taking it home and doingmarking in the evenings or on
the weekend, a lot of teachersare still thinking about their
(16:11):
kiddos, about the work, what doI have to do tomorrow, what's
happening next week?
And and you really highlighthow important it is to have
other experiences and time goingon in our life Can you tell us
a little bit more there?
Speaker 3 (16:24):
Yeah, I mean again, the research is not mine, you
know, this is a team in Germanywho've dedicated their lives to
this, and they identify fourwork recovery experiences which
they say that we need to beexperiencing regularly and
frequently, not occasionally,and not just in the holidays.
And the first and the mostimportant is psychological
detachment.
So it is that switching offfrom thinking about work in our
(16:48):
non-work time.
And then the second one isrelaxation.
I think we all know what thatis.
The third one is control.
We need to have control overhow we spend our non-work time.
So if we have children orelderly people that we're
responsible for, we need to makesure that we're putting in
place time for ourselves.
(17:08):
And the final one, whichsurprises people, is mastery
experiences, where we need to beexperiencing a sense of
accomplishment, and achievementthat is not connected with our
work.
So that's hobbies and pastimesthat get progressively more
challenging, like learning alanguage or playing a musical
instrument or getting better atmaking things, or you know, to
(17:29):
give you an example, if you'regoing and running around the
park and you're doing 5K andyou're happy to just jog along
at the same pace every time,that's relaxation.
But if you're trying to beatyour time.
That's a mastery experience,and what we know from the
research is that the benefit ofa holiday and many people in the
Northern Hemisphere are justcoming to the end of their
(17:50):
summer break now the benefit ofthat holiday lasts two weeks,
three weeks maximum.
We also know that the benefitof the weekend only lasts till
Tuesday.
So what we need to be doing isengaging in those kinds of work
recovery experiences during theweek, in the evenings and at
weekends every weekend, not justoccasionally and pushing
(18:12):
through to the holidays like wedo is very, very damaging for us
.
Speaker 4 (18:18):
One of the things that we often talk about is
calendaring, and so it'simportant to put some of these
things in your calendar, becausea lot of us live by the Google
calendar or Outlook, and so whenyou were a school leader, how
did you ensure that?
Speaker 3 (18:39):
because you were on the road to burnout, but how did
you trying to do some of thesethings or support your community
in doing that, because it'syeah, it's interesting to me
that you mentioned the wordcalendaring because when I was
preparing a little bit mentallyearlier, when I was in the
shower for this and I wasthinking, if you know, they
(19:00):
might ask me what's one strategyand for it's calendaring.
So this isn't just aboutcalendaring in your personal
life, but it's about theresponsibility that you take as
a principal for the schoolcalendar over the year and
making sure that you'reattending to those potential
pinch points where people willbecome so overwhelmed with work
(19:20):
that they're not having time toengage in those work recovery
experiences.
And that's when things startwobbling.
And I learned that in my firstyear as a principal, so naively
not attending to that and staffhating me and coming down so
hard on me because I'd madethings so hard for them.
So I think this starts for thewhole school, for the whole
(19:42):
staff, in the previous year whenwe're setting the calendar up
and we're thinking about what'shappening across the year and
collaborating with staff aroundthat, rather than thinking that
you know it all and you've gotthis covered and being prepared
to learn from what went wrongthe year before, so that we
don't have things backing up andbacking up and people becoming
(20:04):
overwhelmed.
But then, as far as your ownpersonal situation is concerned,
it has to be about planning andit has to be about being very
firm about those boundaries andthose routines.
You know, we know, we know fromthe wonderful book Atomic Habits
, which is one of the best booksI can recommend for someone
(20:24):
who's trying to get their housein order is that it's all about
regularity and consistency increating new habits so that
those habits become the norm andthen they become
non-negotiables for you.
You know, I think if we justwhat I've learned over the years
working with many educators isthat we know all of this it's
(20:48):
not rocket science and thesethis inner voice is there, but
we push the inner voice down andwe ignore it and what we need
to do is pay attention to thatinner voice.
This isn't healthy for me.
I wonder what this is doing.
Ok, I'm going to put somethingin place and I'm going to do is
pay attention to that innervoice.
This isn't healthy for me.
I wonder what this is doing.
Okay, I'm going to putsomething in place and I'm going
to do it, and this is apriority.
And if you can't exerciseself-care because you feel
(21:11):
guilty and you feel that itisn't right that you should be
putting yourself first.
Go back to what I said twoquestions ago about what we now
know about the impacts of thison students.
You know, I like to think forschool leaders of self-care as
being a core leadershipattribute, and I think educators
(21:32):
of all kinds need to think ofit as being the core attribute
at the center of their practice.
Is that we're looking afterourselves because it matters to
you and your family, but alsobecause it matters to your
students and to the school.
You know you, you need to lookafter yourself so that you are
(21:52):
there to give your best forothers you are fit to serve.
Speaker 2 (21:57):
Just going back to the school calendar thing, 100%
agree.
There are so many things thathappen in the year that are
predictable that we should beable to see coming and work
other things around it so thatwhen things do pop up
unannounced or unexpected, we'renot all rushing around like
headless chickens, right?
Speaker 3 (22:17):
Absolutely.
But you know there's also theunpredictability isn't there,
and that's where we come back tothe pandemic.
You know there's a chapter inmy book about working through
crises, you know.
So those predictable thingsthat we can control, let's be
sensible about them, let's notplan to do too much and let's
collaborate over because oneperson can't see the whole year.
(22:40):
You've got to pick it up andlook at it from so many
different directions and youneed collaboration and input
from others in order to do that.
And then, if we don't build thecalendar so that we're flat out
if unexpected things come,we've got a little bit of give.
Things do come along again.
It's essential that wecollaborate.
(23:00):
We listen to others, we listento the issues that they're
having and how it is from theirperspective.
We presume good intent, ratherthan presuming that people are
lazy and they don't want to workhard.
We presume that they'reconsummate professionals who are
giving their best and ifthey're raising an issue, it's
because there is a genuineconcern and we listen to that
(23:22):
and we address it.
We don't have to come up withall the answers ourselves.
The staff have the answers theyknow.
We just need to listen to them.
We need to tune in.
Speaker 4 (23:32):
What are you noticing now, post-pandemic, in the work
that you're doing with schools?
Are you seeing some of the sametypes of things?
I guess we could like maybecategorize it like pre-pandemic,
during pandemic and post.
Are you seeing an increase inburnout or, like this, awareness
(23:54):
is helping people recognize it?
What's happening there?
Speaker 3 (23:57):
No, there's definitely an increase, and I
think that it isn't just thatwe're more.
An element of it, of course,tammy, is that we're more
willing to talk about thesethings.
Now there's less stigma,there's a lot more being written
and said and spoken aboutmental health, and a lot of high
profile people are prepared totalk about it, and so that's
taken the stigma away.
But it isn't just that.
(24:18):
It's a couple of things we aresuffering.
We are experiencing a falloutfrom the pandemic with students,
so what we're seeing are morestudents experiencing mental
health issues, which has put inan enormous amount of strain on
the system and on individual,individual teachers and leaders.
We're seeing high rates ofabsenteeism with the students,
(24:46):
more school refusal.
We're seeing a lot morebehaviour problems coming to the
surface, a lot more specialeducational needs coming to the
surface, and this is reallyputting everyone under an
enormous amount of pressure.
So I think that's where some ofit's coming from.
I think we're also seeing andit's interesting how I see this
(25:08):
in pretty much every school thatI work with all over the world,
regardless of whether they'rein a level of high deprivation
or they're one of the wealthiestschools in the world is this
desperation for connection andthis reduction in the time
available for community buildingand for people to be connected
with each other.
(25:29):
And that's a real shame, becausethe research shows and also my
own experience of sitting forhundreds of hours in focus
groups, listening to teachersand TAs and admin staff talk
about their experience in theworkplace is that if people feel
(25:49):
connected to their colleaguesand there is a positive
workplace culture, they're muchbetter able to manage and cope
with the high levels of workload.
When it all starts to wobbleand go wrong is when the
workplace culture is negative.
And the research shows fromboth schools in the UK and
international schools, that themajority of educators feel that
(26:13):
their workplace culture isnegative for a variety of
reasons.
So if we're constantly you youknow snipping away at
professional development time sothat we're no longer providing
opportunities during those daysfor people to come together and
(26:34):
build community, because insteadwe're putting learning in place
, people don't feel connected asmuch as they used to and that
is having a devastating effect.
And in the schools that I'vebeen supporting, helping them to
put that time back, you see aninstant impact.
Speaker 2 (26:57):
So interesting, isn't it?
Because I feel like you oftenhear from teachers like don't
make me do team building, don'tmake me share out how I'm
feeling or checking in with my.
But there you go.
There's that evidence that,over and over again, is I see
the people in my corridor, but Idon't see anybody else for
(27:25):
weeks and weeks and weeks.
Speaker 3 (27:26):
And so if, in the in-service training day, what
we've done is put in place alunch where everyone's available
at the same time, the school'sprovided some food and we've
been given an hour where we canall sit down together and talk,
it seems like something sosimple, yet people appreciate
that so much.
Just those little things andletting those things go.
(27:48):
We think, oh, they don't matter, they're not important, they're
just small things.
But I think what we have toacknowledge is that the little
things are the big things andthese small ways of connecting
with each other aretransformational, and I don't
use that word lightly.
Speaker 4 (28:08):
Thank you, helen, for just all of your insights
around the research you've done,your experience, what you see.
We're at the point in the showwhere we ask our guests for a
pare-down pointer, and maybethat was just it there, but just
a quick tip or strategy for ourlisteners that they can take
away from the show, right, Ithink.
Speaker 3 (28:28):
If I'm going to go with one thing that I think
helps more than anything else,it's start the day with non-work
thoughts.
So this is a way that we createboundaries between home and
work.
So the first thing we do in themorning should not be reached
to the bedside table and pick upthe phone and look at our work
emails.
The longer that we can delaythat, the better.
(28:50):
So if we can get up, we canspend five minutes stretching,
we can have a cup of tea out onthe patio.
If it's warm enough, withoutany technology, we can have a
shower and sing in the shower.
We can do anything that meanswe're not starting the day with
this.
That will have a massive impacton our cortisol levels and on
(29:11):
our preparation and the way thatwe cope with things throughout
the whole day.
And it sounds so simple, butit's really effective.
Speaker 4 (29:19):
Thank you so much, Helen.
I'm doing that tomorrow.
Speaker 3 (29:23):
Good.
Speaker 4 (29:27):
Thanks for being with us this week, Helen.
We appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
It's been an absolute pleasure.
Speaker 1 (29:58):
Thank you for listening to the Minimalist
Educator podcast.
Join Christine and Tammy andguests again next time for more
conversations about how tosimplify and clarify the
responsibilities and tasks inyour role.
If today's episode helped yourethink, reimagine, reduce or
realign something in yourpractice, share it in a comment
(30:19):
or with a colleague in yourpractice.
Share it in a comment or with acolleague.
For resources and updates,visit planzeducationcom and
subscribe to receive weeklyemails.
Until next time, keep it simpleand stay intentional.
Thank you.
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