October 7, 2025 • 26 mins
There's a powerful moment in our conversation with John Spencer when he captures what so many educators are feeling: "It's like you're designing for depth while the system keeps dragging everything to the surface." This sentiment strikes at the heart of teaching today – fighting against a culture of distraction to create meaningful learning experiences.
Spencer, whose journey from middle school teacher to professor and influential education content creator began with his own transformative project-based learning experience as a student, offers a refreshingly honest perspective on student engagement. Moving beyond simplistic advice to "make class more engaging" or "remember your why," he presents a nuanced framework for understanding the difference between compliance and true engagement.
What makes Spencer's approach so valuable is his practical wisdom about building student ownership gradually. "Ask yourself what am I doing for students that they could be doing themselves," he advises, suggesting educators build a year-long plan for incrementally releasing responsibility. This might mean starting with simplified choice activities before progressing to more complex, self-directed projects – creating a pathway for developing the skills and habits students need to engage deeply.
Spencer also challenges common misconceptions about creative learning: that it takes more time (it actually allows for layering standards together), that it's impossible to assess (formative assessment works well), or that it leads to chaos (structure remains essential). His concept of "vintage innovation" – the productive overlap between traditional and progressive approaches – offers a refreshing alternative to polarized education debates.
Ready to fight back against the "dopamine casino" of constant digital distraction? Spencer's insights provide both the understanding and practical strategies needed to help students develop focus, resilience and self-direction in a world that increasingly pulls them toward shallow engagement. Listen now to discover how you can create conditions for deeper learning in your classroom.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
Welcome to the Minimalist Educator podcast,
where the focus is on aless-is-more approach to
education.
Join your hosts, christineArnold and Tammy Musiawski,
authors of the MinimalistTeacher and your School
Leadership.
Edit a minimalist approach torethinking your school ecosystem
each week, as they explorepractical ways to simplify your
(00:36):
work, sharpen your focus andamplify what matters most so you
can teach and lead with greaterclarity, purpose and joy.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
In this week's episode, we speak with John
Spencer.
John is a former middle schoolteacher and current professor.
He enjoys writing articles,making podcasts and making
YouTube videos.
He is also the author of bookssuch as Empower Vintage
Innovation and the AI Roadmap.
Such as Empower VintageInnovation and the AI Roadmap,
(01:13):
john Spencer's Pair Down Pointerfor us today is all about a
gradual release ofresponsibility.
Speaker 3 (01:17):
Welcome to today's episode of the Minimalist
Educator Podcast.
Today, Christine and I arelooking forward to talking to
John Spencer, who is all overthe networks in education with
his creative videos around allthe topics that we talk about.
So welcome to today's show,John.
(01:38):
It's good to have you.
Speaker 4 (01:40):
Thanks, glad to be here.
Speaker 3 (01:51):
So, before we get into some of our discussion
points, we are always curiousabout how Thanks Glad to be here
teachers podcasting.
You've got some books out thatwe'll talk about.
So what kind of brought you tothat point and to talk about the
things that you talk about?
Speaker 4 (02:11):
So I I first experienced what I would say is
like creative, authentic,engaging learning, whatever you
want to call it project basedlearning In the eighth grade,
when I did a National HistoryDay project, and that rocked my
world, that changed my worldforever.
It's where I learned how tocommunicate, how to collaborate,
it's where I learned how todevelop resilience and
(02:35):
self-direction and all of thosethings, and I fell in love with
history, and so I minored inhistory.
And so I minored in history,majored in education, um, but
also was working for anon-profit and really thought I
would stay in a non-profit world.
And then it wasn't untilstudent teaching that I was like
(02:55):
this is what I love.
I love teaching, um.
It just felt like a good fit.
But I was never one of thosekids that, like, taught my
stuffed animals as a kid.
Or, you know, like there's theteachers who are like I've
wanted to be a teacher since Iwas nine.
I was like I've wanted to be ateacher since I was, you know,
22 or 23.
You know, I think I was 23.
That's when I decided I wantedto be a teacher, and I do think
(03:18):
teaching is sometimes somethingyou choose, or something that
you discover at the same time,something you choose or
something that you discover atthe same time.
And for me, that was reallywhat it came down to.
And so I started out teachingwith the goal of wanting to
really teach in a moreproject-based, authentic way.
But I was worried about pacinghitting every standard classroom
(03:39):
, getting loud, managing a group, this and that um.
And so I launched project-basedlearning in my own class during
testing week, when I had all ofthe kids who were more
energetic, um, and so theywouldn't just silently read a
book when they were done withtesting, and it was this free
chance to do whatever I wanted.
I didn't have to teach newcontent and that started me out
(04:02):
on this pbl journey and um, andI say pbl but authentic learning
, deeper learning, whatever youwant to call it because it was
all of the above and it reallywas the start of my journey
toward more authentic,student-centered approaches.
Um, and now, how did I startout with, like, the content
creation side?
(04:23):
I started out, uh, by doing ablog, my, actually while doing
student teaching, and I stillregret this that I gave up the
domain name johnspencercom.
So I coded a blog onjohnspencercom, let go of the
domain name, and, and it wascalled at the time a web blog,
and so my weblog was more like ajournal.
(04:45):
I mean, it was like 300, 400words and I just invited
teachers that I taught withstudent teachers to read my like
here's how things are going,kind of stuff.
Um, it was called musings froma not so master teacher that was
my original blog name and, um,and yeah, it just grew from that
to eventually videos andpodcasting, professional
(05:08):
development stuff like that, um,but it was.
It was never a uh, strategic oranything.
It was always just kind ofmessy and accidental very cool.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
Um, john, I was reading something that you wrote
recently and it just felt likeit slapped me in the face, this
part.
So I'm going to read a littlesection back to you here, john.
Okay, it's from a text that youwrote recently, I think, about
around cultures of distraction,and you wrote it's not that
students are incapable, it's notthat you didn't plan enough,
(05:42):
and it's definitely not thatyou've stopped caring.
This isn't a moment to rememberyour why.
You're doing thoughtful,responsive, engaging work, but
something still feels off.
It's like you're designing fordepth while the system keeps
dragging everything to thesurface.
And so, yeah, first of all,what are you doing in my
classroom, john?
(06:02):
First of all, what are youdoing in my classroom, john?
But that really resonated withme because I was like that is
literally what it feels likeright now.
It really does.
So can you tell us a little bitabout your writing there and
what you're thinking?
Speaker 4 (06:17):
about.
Yeah, I just, I think you knowwe've seen a trend for a while
of just challenges that teachersare facing, and it's
distractions, it's a lack ofresilience, it's a lack of
self-direction.
Some of it is from social media, some of it is just the role of
(06:37):
TikTok and attention spans, andwe're seeing that.
Some of it is, I think, largercultural shifts around
consequences and things likethat, and so teachers are are
are stepping into the situationwhere to do deeper work, to do
something that lasts longer, toask students to focus, things
(06:58):
like that it really is different, it's countercultural.
And I just see a lot of keynotespeakers and stuff like that.
They're like just remember yourwhy, make class more engaging.
You're like, actually, I thinkit's more than just
entertainment, it's more thanjust remembering your why.
(07:19):
It really is recognizing thatwhen you are doing those things
that work, when you're doingthose meaningful, relevant
activities, that it takes timefor them to develop the skill
and then the habit and then themindset, and I often think it
(07:39):
moves in that sequence.
And so when you're comparingwhere kids are in terms of focus
and engagement and whatever itmay be right now to say six
years ago, you're going to feellike you failed.
But if you're comparing thesuccess of now versus August of
this last school year whateverit may be I think you can really
(08:01):
say I'm fighting a reallynegative cultural trend.
I'm paddling upstream, but itis working, you know, and so I
think that's where that kind ofcame from.
And I just see teachershonestly I mean teachers are
some of our own worst criticsSee the successes, because they
are there.
I promise you they are theresuccesses because they are there
(08:26):
.
Speaker 3 (08:26):
I promise you they are there.
That's really powerful and sorelevant right now.
When you are talking about youknow it's more than remembering
our why.
It's something Christina and Ijust wrote about, and it could
you know that could bring somelike people to push back when.
But you have to remember yes,you do have to remember your why
, but it really is much morethan that.
And so can you talk a littlebit about one of the videos that
(08:49):
I often use in my workshops isone of yours, and it's the one
on.
It's a short video on thelevels of engagement.
It's from Schlechti, right, andso it's really important, I
think, for us to fullyunderstand that range of
engagement and what it reallylooks like in classrooms,
(09:11):
because a lot of times we dojust see compliance from
students and from teachers, andso we can kind of shift that
like how that changes everything.
So can you talk a little bitabout those levels of engagement
and how that plays a part inwhat we do?
Speaker 4 (09:28):
Yeah.
So if we think about it this way, we have, you know, philip
Schlechti defined engagement asone part commitment, one part
attention, and and.
And what we often think of asengagement is what we are
observing when we walk into aclassroom, and that's high
attention, but that can be lowcommitment, you know, and what
(09:52):
that really is is stillcompliance.
So he talks about moving fromstrategic compliance up into
true engagement, and I think, ifwe look at those two factors of
commitment and attention, youknow our goal with deeper
learning is we want to boostthat level of attention and
(10:15):
focus, and that is a habit to bedeveloped.
That involves things likedeveloping endurance.
It is a challenge I want torecognize, like it's not an easy
piece, but if they can developthose things, then they can move
up in terms of engagement.
At the same time, we have togive them that reason to learn.
(10:40):
And so what do we do to boostcommitment?
We make it meaningful, we makeit relevant.
We make it relevant, we providechallenges, we incorporate
critical thinking, and so Ireally think that to me, like
one of the benefits of selectingthese levels of engagement is
we can think about what arethose structural things that we
do as teachers on both sides andfor attention, it could involve
(11:04):
reducing cognitive load, itcould involve having better
visuals, giving directions whereit's a step and then practice a
step, and then practice a step,and then practice Could involve
providing more cooperativelearning activities during a
lecture.
Whatever that may be on theattention side.
But we really have to focus onthat commitment side, because if
all we do is ban cell phoneswhich schools do, and I'm fine
(11:28):
with cell phone bans I want tobe clear If we ban cell phones
and we focus on getting theirattention and even building
endurance, but we don't givethem a rationale for it, the
best we can go to is strategiccompliance, and that's good
because it'll move them fromretreatism to strategic
compliance.
(11:48):
But really what we want isengagement.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
When you're talking with teachers and educators
about creativity, the importanceof being creative and focus on
these problems and creatingprojects and so on.
Is there a common misconceptionabout this sort of work?
That comes up a lot in the workthat you do.
Speaker 4 (12:12):
Yeah.
So I think there's a lot ofmisconceptions and I'll just
share.
I'll kind of tick them offquickly, if that's okay.
One is it takes more time andthey don't understand the role
of layering standards together,connecting them together, and
when you teach for masteryyou're going to move slower but
(12:32):
you're teaching more at the sametime.
You could, like we teach in away that's almost like here's
flour, here's eggs, here's likeinstead of making a cake, right,
like we do this weird thing,it's like here's this and then
here's this, and so that's onemisconception, I think, is the
(12:54):
time piece.
Another one is it's impossibleto assess.
It is actually, I think, veryeasy to assess once you see how
the assessment process can workin terms of a formative way.
I think there's sometimes anassumption that it's just like
arts and crafts and notunderstanding that creative
thinking doesn't even alwayshave to have a physical product,
right?
(13:14):
I think there's a belief thatit's going to be total chaos and
actually structure is a part ofit, right, that everyone who
does creative work usesprotocols and structures and
things like that.
So I think there's a lot ofthose misconceptions and I want
to be clear.
I've fallen victim to all ofthose misconceptions myself.
(13:35):
Right, I assumed that everytime a student was confused I'd
done something wrong and Ididn't understand the role of
strategic confusion.
Or I assumed that at one timethat if I break things into
phases and have deadlines, thatthat was somehow less authentic
(13:55):
and kids just needed the spaceand time.
That's not true.
Adults, we all work withindeadlines.
So I think you know, we, we allfall victim to these things,
these misconceptions ourselves,and I think it's okay for us to
own that.
We're on a learning journey too.
Speaker 3 (14:12):
Yeah, for sure I.
I was wondering, just thinkingabout my own learning journey.
I read your book empower,didn't realize that you had one
called vintage innovation.
I read your book Empower,didn't realize that you had one
called Vintage Innovation.
What does that mean and howdoes that fall into?
How does that fall into likeauthentic learning.
Speaker 4 (14:36):
Because I know that's what it's all about, but what
does that look like?
So it's interesting likeVintage Innovation comes from
for me.
I've always been in this edtech zone and I want to be clear
like my reason for embracingtechnology was for authentic
learning and for that meaningfuldeeper learning opportunity and
I never fit in the ed techcommunity like I didn't enjoy
(14:58):
like app smashing.
I don't know if you rememberwhen that was a thing you know
and like it just wasn't my, itjust Like I didn't enjoy like
app smashing.
I don't know if you rememberwhen that was a thing you know
and like it just wasn't my, itjust wasn't.
I didn't get excited about AVequipment the way people do, and
like I just was never like that.
I like Neil Postman and WendellBerry and I just don't fit that
.
And so you know I startedthinking and so you know I
(15:22):
started thinking what was that?
Speaker 3 (15:24):
Like lowbrow tech right, like you just kind of
yeah.
Speaker 4 (15:28):
And so I was thinking about this idea of vintage
innovation as what I want to see, to say.
What does it mean to beinnovative?
And it doesn't always mean newtech.
Sometimes it's the overlap ofthe old tech and the lo-fi tools
.
It's duct tape and cardboardand a 3d printer.
(15:49):
It's hand sketch sketches andthen putting them into a
sketchnote video.
It's it's all of this back andforth, it's using creative
constraints, and then it's alsothat overlap of old ideas and
new ideas.
And I think we get stuck in thisthing of like classical
(16:10):
education versus progressiveeducation.
It's like, well, it's both.
You know, like a Socraticseminar and I is very old,
that's been around for thousandsof years, and so, if we think
about it this way, vintageinnovation for me was this
mindset or approach that we cantake as educators that really
embraces that overlap of bestpractices and next practices.
(16:33):
And, just to be honest, whenyou know, often I write a book
with the goal of like addressinga big challenge that's
happening right.
So it's like how do we makecreativity work?
That was a launch and how do wesolve the engagement challenge?
That was in power.
Vintage innovation was justlike a book I wanted to write
(16:53):
for myself, and so I don't knowif it makes any sense, but it
ended up being the most fun bookthat I ever wrote and it really
was focused on let's have adifferent definition of
innovation, because it's notalways just being future forward
.
Speaker 2 (17:12):
And while we're talking about your books, you've
got a new book out this year,in 2025, right?
Can you tell us a little bitabout that one?
Speaker 4 (17:19):
Yeah.
So that was a book that wasmore on the side of like
addressing current challenges,and so I have been in a lot of
classrooms as a cohort leaderand I've seen changes and a lot
of it.
You know, in fact, the subtitleof the book is your deeper
learning in a distracted worldis about distraction.
(17:41):
But I think it's bigger thandistraction.
I think it's a lot of thesethings that we're seeing a lack
of resilience, a lack ofself-direction.
And as I was thinking aboutthis, I was, um, I was thinking
like where are the spaces thatbuck the trend?
Like where, where am I seeingkids not distracted, not
(18:01):
whatever.
Where am I seeing kids notdistracted, not whatever?
And it was.
You know, I'm a volunteer coachfor mock trial, it was.
It was the mock trial groupwhere they are literally
memorizing pages.
Kids these days can't memorize.
They're doing it, they're beingresilient, they're giving
feedback, they're collaborating,they're communicating.
Um, and so I started thinkingabout that, and then I was
(18:22):
already working on another bookon this topic of deeper learning
, because I was really thinkinglike, what is it that I'm all
about?
It's not just project basedlearning, what is it deeper
learning?
I'd been doing some, some, somekeynotes and conference
sessions.
Um, and I had been just slowlyplugging away at an outline of a
(18:49):
book and then I realized like,oh my gosh, this is it.
We are facing huge challengesand we can either move into
being reactive and just banningeverything and going
hyper-traditional and I didn'twant't want to see that right or
we can try to compete with theculture, with.
I've seen all these programswhere it's like kids on the
computer non-stop with an ipad,getting badges, getting instant
(19:13):
feedback every 15 seconds.
There's a new stimulus and Iwas like that's just feeding
into this dopamine casino, rightand um, and I remember reading
anxious generation at the sametime and it was like, oh, this
is so true.
And so I thought what is thesolution?
It's not just one of those two.
(19:34):
It really comes down to deeperlearning, and so that's where it
came from.
And, um, I had so much funwriting it.
I mean, I enjoy writing andmaking my visuals and stuff like
that and the book just came outlast Friday, I think awesome
congratulations.
Speaker 3 (19:55):
Thanks, dopamine casino.
Speaker 4 (19:59):
I mean that's definitely a phrase I'm gonna
use, because I mean absolutelytrue, right yeah, I mean, and
and we had an open conversationin the car with the kids.
They brought it up first, firstmy oldest, just like it was
like I feel like my attentionspan is falling.
(20:22):
I feel like when I'm havingconversations with people, I'm
getting impatient with them.
I'm, you know those types ofthings.
He's an avid reader, but he'slike I feel like I'm stopping
reading after three, three orfour minutes instead of really
leaning into it for hours, andso, even when, when we find
(20:43):
reasons why and stuff, it is aconstant battle in terms of a
habit.
And so I think you know one ofmy goals is the book is written
for teachers, but one of myhopes is that parents can also
embrace this idea of like.
What does deeper learning looklike?
What does it mean to developthose essential skills and
habits and mindsets?
(21:03):
And my children I mean myoldest is 20 and setting
parameters for himself we have adevice called a brick which,
when you turn it on, we all haveto agree as a family to do this
, but when we watch a movie, weturn the brick on and that turns
off the ability of any of ourphones to get email or social
(21:28):
media.
So you select which apps.
We can still get that emergencytext because my wife and I have
older parents and so we both,you know, we, we don't want to
be cut off from the world, butwe do want to be cut off from
social media, and so we'reliterally using this device and,
um, it's one of the best thingsaround, like, and we've agreed
(21:50):
to it, and so, um, I think it'sa, I think it's a very real.
I'll also add one more piece tothat.
A lot of it gets labeled asadolescence or kids these days,
or there's the anxiousgeneration that I mentioned.
Love the book.
Don't necessarily love thenotion of labeling a whole
generation as blank right,because millennials were all
(22:12):
labeled as narcissistic and thenstudies prove that they're
actually, in terms of clinicallevels and studies of narcissism
, they're actually the lowest ofall generations.
So we want to make sure thatwe're not like labeling the
whole generation.
I would argue that that lack ofattention I see it with every
generation.
(22:32):
I see it with my parents.
My parents show up and they uselike, the iPad and they're
getting news alerts nonstop andworrying constantly.
You know I'm living that withan additional generation.
So I think it's more I wouldn'tsay generational, more of a
cultural trend that we reallyhave to address, and I think
(22:53):
schools, fortunately, are one ofthe best spaces where we can
cultivate that deeper learning,deeper work, deeper engagement
in a culture that often pushesshallow and instant amusement.
Speaker 3 (23:09):
Thank you so much for this conversation, John.
We're going to have to have youback at another time.
Speaker 4 (23:14):
I would love to Um, we're going to have to have you
back at another time.
Speaker 3 (23:17):
Yeah, Um, this is the point.
In the show we ask our guestsfor a paired on pointer, just a
quick tip or strategy to justhelp people you know, pare down
in the things that they're doing.
Could be something youmentioned or maybe something you
do.
What would you offer to ourlisteners?
Speaker 4 (23:32):
You know, one of the things that I would say is I
would recommend a quick strategyon the self-direction piece,
and so I'm just going to share alittle strategy.
Take a gradual release ofresponsibility towards student
empowerment, and so I'm going towalk you through kind of what I
have done myself.
So step one is ask yourselfwhat am I doing for students
(23:56):
that they could be doing forthemselves?
And make a list of all thoseareas that students should be
owning and then build in agradual release.
So in week one we're going tofocus on this.
In week two we're not going toget students owning the
assessment process until weekfour or whatever, and really
(24:17):
take a gradual release approachto student ownership.
Or, in the same way, we're goingto do a mini project first and
then a full-blown PBL.
We're going to do a tic-tac-toestyle choice menu and then move
into an advanced choice menuand then move into something a
little bit deeper like a geniushour project choice menu and
(24:37):
then move into something alittle bit deeper like a genius
hour project.
And the reason I say that is,as we think about these
challenges, if they really areskills to develop and habits,
that's really challenging for astudent and can feel
overwhelming in terms ofbuilding in self-direction and
choice, and so takingincremental steps and building
on those easy wins helpsstudents feel more confident and
(25:01):
it gives you signs of successthat you then can build on
yourself as you teach, and so Iwould say that would be my thing
, that you could pare down in.
I'll just focus on one area,that self-direction piece, and
really figure out how to build aplan year long, of how you're
going to gradually add more andmore voice and choice.
Speaker 3 (25:22):
That's awesome.
Thank you so much, john, andthanks for being a guest with us
today.
Speaker 4 (25:27):
Thanks, I appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
Today's episode was brought to you by Plan Z
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Speaker 1 (25:42):
Thank you for listening to the Minimalist
Educator Podcast.
Join Christine and Tammy andguests again next time for more
conversations about how tosimplify and clarify the
responsibilities and tasks inyour role.
If today's episode helped yourethink, reimagine, reduce or
realign something in yourpractice, share it in a comment
(26:03):
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For resources and updates,visit planzeducationcom and
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Until next time, keep it simpleand stay intentional.
Welcome to the Minimalist Educator podcast,
where the focus is on aless-is-more approach to
education.
Join your hosts, christineArnold and Tammy Musiawski,
authors of the MinimalistTeacher and your School
Leadership.
Edit a minimalist approach torethinking your school ecosystem
each week, as they explorepractical ways to simplify your
(00:36):
work, sharpen your focus andamplify what matters most so you
can teach and lead with greaterclarity, purpose and joy.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
In this week's episode, we speak with John
Spencer.
John is a former middle schoolteacher and current professor.
He enjoys writing articles,making podcasts and making
YouTube videos.
He is also the author of bookssuch as Empower Vintage
Innovation and the AI Roadmap.
Such as Empower VintageInnovation and the AI Roadmap,
(01:13):
john Spencer's Pair Down Pointerfor us today is all about a
gradual release ofresponsibility.
Speaker 3 (01:17):
Welcome to today's episode of the Minimalist
Educator Podcast.
Today, Christine and I arelooking forward to talking to
John Spencer, who is all overthe networks in education with
his creative videos around allthe topics that we talk about.
So welcome to today's show,John.
(01:38):
It's good to have you.
Speaker 4 (01:40):
Thanks, glad to be here.
Speaker 3 (01:51):
So, before we get into some of our discussion
points, we are always curiousabout how Thanks Glad to be here
teachers podcasting.
You've got some books out thatwe'll talk about.
So what kind of brought you tothat point and to talk about the
things that you talk about?
Speaker 4 (02:11):
So I I first experienced what I would say is
like creative, authentic,engaging learning, whatever you
want to call it project basedlearning In the eighth grade,
when I did a National HistoryDay project, and that rocked my
world, that changed my worldforever.
It's where I learned how tocommunicate, how to collaborate,
it's where I learned how todevelop resilience and
(02:35):
self-direction and all of thosethings, and I fell in love with
history, and so I minored inhistory.
And so I minored in history,majored in education, um, but
also was working for anon-profit and really thought I
would stay in a non-profit world.
And then it wasn't untilstudent teaching that I was like
(02:55):
this is what I love.
I love teaching, um.
It just felt like a good fit.
But I was never one of thosekids that, like, taught my
stuffed animals as a kid.
Or, you know, like there's theteachers who are like I've
wanted to be a teacher since Iwas nine.
I was like I've wanted to be ateacher since I was, you know,
22 or 23.
You know, I think I was 23.
That's when I decided I wantedto be a teacher, and I do think
(03:18):
teaching is sometimes somethingyou choose, or something that
you discover at the same time,something you choose or
something that you discover atthe same time.
And for me, that was reallywhat it came down to.
And so I started out teachingwith the goal of wanting to
really teach in a moreproject-based, authentic way.
But I was worried about pacinghitting every standard classroom
(03:39):
, getting loud, managing a group, this and that um.
And so I launched project-basedlearning in my own class during
testing week, when I had all ofthe kids who were more
energetic, um, and so theywouldn't just silently read a
book when they were done withtesting, and it was this free
chance to do whatever I wanted.
I didn't have to teach newcontent and that started me out
(04:02):
on this pbl journey and um, andI say pbl but authentic learning
, deeper learning, whatever youwant to call it because it was
all of the above and it reallywas the start of my journey
toward more authentic,student-centered approaches.
Um, and now, how did I startout with, like, the content
creation side?
(04:23):
I started out, uh, by doing ablog, my, actually while doing
student teaching, and I stillregret this that I gave up the
domain name johnspencercom.
So I coded a blog onjohnspencercom, let go of the
domain name, and, and it wascalled at the time a web blog,
and so my weblog was more like ajournal.
(04:45):
I mean, it was like 300, 400words and I just invited
teachers that I taught withstudent teachers to read my like
here's how things are going,kind of stuff.
Um, it was called musings froma not so master teacher that was
my original blog name and, um,and yeah, it just grew from that
to eventually videos andpodcasting, professional
(05:08):
development stuff like that, um,but it was.
It was never a uh, strategic oranything.
It was always just kind ofmessy and accidental very cool.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
Um, john, I was reading something that you wrote
recently and it just felt likeit slapped me in the face, this
part.
So I'm going to read a littlesection back to you here, john.
Okay, it's from a text that youwrote recently, I think, about
around cultures of distraction,and you wrote it's not that
students are incapable, it's notthat you didn't plan enough,
(05:42):
and it's definitely not thatyou've stopped caring.
This isn't a moment to rememberyour why.
You're doing thoughtful,responsive, engaging work, but
something still feels off.
It's like you're designing fordepth while the system keeps
dragging everything to thesurface.
And so, yeah, first of all,what are you doing in my
classroom, john?
(06:02):
First of all, what are youdoing in my classroom, john?
But that really resonated withme because I was like that is
literally what it feels likeright now.
It really does.
So can you tell us a little bitabout your writing there and
what you're thinking?
Speaker 4 (06:17):
about.
Yeah, I just, I think you knowwe've seen a trend for a while
of just challenges that teachersare facing, and it's
distractions, it's a lack ofresilience, it's a lack of
self-direction.
Some of it is from social media, some of it is just the role of
(06:37):
TikTok and attention spans, andwe're seeing that.
Some of it is, I think, largercultural shifts around
consequences and things likethat, and so teachers are are
are stepping into the situationwhere to do deeper work, to do
something that lasts longer, toask students to focus, things
(06:58):
like that it really is different, it's countercultural.
And I just see a lot of keynotespeakers and stuff like that.
They're like just remember yourwhy, make class more engaging.
You're like, actually, I thinkit's more than just
entertainment, it's more thanjust remembering your why.
(07:19):
It really is recognizing thatwhen you are doing those things
that work, when you're doingthose meaningful, relevant
activities, that it takes timefor them to develop the skill
and then the habit and then themindset, and I often think it
(07:39):
moves in that sequence.
And so when you're comparingwhere kids are in terms of focus
and engagement and whatever itmay be right now to say six
years ago, you're going to feellike you failed.
But if you're comparing thesuccess of now versus August of
this last school year whateverit may be I think you can really
(08:01):
say I'm fighting a reallynegative cultural trend.
I'm paddling upstream, but itis working, you know, and so I
think that's where that kind ofcame from.
And I just see teachershonestly I mean teachers are
some of our own worst criticsSee the successes, because they
are there.
I promise you they are theresuccesses because they are there
(08:26):
.
Speaker 3 (08:26):
I promise you they are there.
That's really powerful and sorelevant right now.
When you are talking about youknow it's more than remembering
our why.
It's something Christina and Ijust wrote about, and it could
you know that could bring somelike people to push back when.
But you have to remember yes,you do have to remember your why
, but it really is much morethan that.
And so can you talk a littlebit about one of the videos that
(08:49):
I often use in my workshops isone of yours, and it's the one
on.
It's a short video on thelevels of engagement.
It's from Schlechti, right, andso it's really important, I
think, for us to fullyunderstand that range of
engagement and what it reallylooks like in classrooms,
(09:11):
because a lot of times we dojust see compliance from
students and from teachers, andso we can kind of shift that
like how that changes everything.
So can you talk a little bitabout those levels of engagement
and how that plays a part inwhat we do?
Speaker 4 (09:28):
Yeah.
So if we think about it this way, we have, you know, philip
Schlechti defined engagement asone part commitment, one part
attention, and and.
And what we often think of asengagement is what we are
observing when we walk into aclassroom, and that's high
attention, but that can be lowcommitment, you know, and what
(09:52):
that really is is stillcompliance.
So he talks about moving fromstrategic compliance up into
true engagement, and I think, ifwe look at those two factors of
commitment and attention, youknow our goal with deeper
learning is we want to boostthat level of attention and
(10:15):
focus, and that is a habit to bedeveloped.
That involves things likedeveloping endurance.
It is a challenge I want torecognize, like it's not an easy
piece, but if they can developthose things, then they can move
up in terms of engagement.
At the same time, we have togive them that reason to learn.
(10:40):
And so what do we do to boostcommitment?
We make it meaningful, we makeit relevant.
We make it relevant, we providechallenges, we incorporate
critical thinking, and so Ireally think that to me, like
one of the benefits of selectingthese levels of engagement is
we can think about what arethose structural things that we
do as teachers on both sides andfor attention, it could involve
(11:04):
reducing cognitive load, itcould involve having better
visuals, giving directions whereit's a step and then practice a
step, and then practice a step,and then practice Could involve
providing more cooperativelearning activities during a
lecture.
Whatever that may be on theattention side.
But we really have to focus onthat commitment side, because if
all we do is ban cell phoneswhich schools do, and I'm fine
(11:28):
with cell phone bans I want tobe clear If we ban cell phones
and we focus on getting theirattention and even building
endurance, but we don't givethem a rationale for it, the
best we can go to is strategiccompliance, and that's good
because it'll move them fromretreatism to strategic
compliance.
(11:48):
But really what we want isengagement.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
When you're talking with teachers and educators
about creativity, the importanceof being creative and focus on
these problems and creatingprojects and so on.
Is there a common misconceptionabout this sort of work?
That comes up a lot in the workthat you do.
Speaker 4 (12:12):
Yeah.
So I think there's a lot ofmisconceptions and I'll just
share.
I'll kind of tick them offquickly, if that's okay.
One is it takes more time andthey don't understand the role
of layering standards together,connecting them together, and
when you teach for masteryyou're going to move slower but
(12:32):
you're teaching more at the sametime.
You could, like we teach in away that's almost like here's
flour, here's eggs, here's likeinstead of making a cake, right,
like we do this weird thing,it's like here's this and then
here's this, and so that's onemisconception, I think, is the
(12:54):
time piece.
Another one is it's impossibleto assess.
It is actually, I think, veryeasy to assess once you see how
the assessment process can workin terms of a formative way.
I think there's sometimes anassumption that it's just like
arts and crafts and notunderstanding that creative
thinking doesn't even alwayshave to have a physical product,
right?
(13:14):
I think there's a belief thatit's going to be total chaos and
actually structure is a part ofit, right, that everyone who
does creative work usesprotocols and structures and
things like that.
So I think there's a lot ofthose misconceptions and I want
to be clear.
I've fallen victim to all ofthose misconceptions myself.
(13:35):
Right, I assumed that everytime a student was confused I'd
done something wrong and Ididn't understand the role of
strategic confusion.
Or I assumed that at one timethat if I break things into
phases and have deadlines, thatthat was somehow less authentic
(13:55):
and kids just needed the spaceand time.
That's not true.
Adults, we all work withindeadlines.
So I think you know, we, we allfall victim to these things,
these misconceptions ourselves,and I think it's okay for us to
own that.
We're on a learning journey too.
Speaker 3 (14:12):
Yeah, for sure I.
I was wondering, just thinkingabout my own learning journey.
I read your book empower,didn't realize that you had one
called vintage innovation.
I read your book Empower,didn't realize that you had one
called Vintage Innovation.
What does that mean and howdoes that fall into?
How does that fall into likeauthentic learning.
Speaker 4 (14:36):
Because I know that's what it's all about, but what
does that look like?
So it's interesting likeVintage Innovation comes from
for me.
I've always been in this edtech zone and I want to be clear
like my reason for embracingtechnology was for authentic
learning and for that meaningfuldeeper learning opportunity and
I never fit in the ed techcommunity like I didn't enjoy
(14:58):
like app smashing.
I don't know if you rememberwhen that was a thing you know
and like it just wasn't my, itjust Like I didn't enjoy like
app smashing.
I don't know if you rememberwhen that was a thing you know
and like it just wasn't my, itjust wasn't.
I didn't get excited about AVequipment the way people do, and
like I just was never like that.
I like Neil Postman and WendellBerry and I just don't fit that
.
And so you know I startedthinking and so you know I
(15:22):
started thinking what was that?
Speaker 3 (15:24):
Like lowbrow tech right, like you just kind of
yeah.
Speaker 4 (15:28):
And so I was thinking about this idea of vintage
innovation as what I want to see, to say.
What does it mean to beinnovative?
And it doesn't always mean newtech.
Sometimes it's the overlap ofthe old tech and the lo-fi tools
.
It's duct tape and cardboardand a 3d printer.
(15:49):
It's hand sketch sketches andthen putting them into a
sketchnote video.
It's it's all of this back andforth, it's using creative
constraints, and then it's alsothat overlap of old ideas and
new ideas.
And I think we get stuck in thisthing of like classical
(16:10):
education versus progressiveeducation.
It's like, well, it's both.
You know, like a Socraticseminar and I is very old,
that's been around for thousandsof years, and so, if we think
about it this way, vintageinnovation for me was this
mindset or approach that we cantake as educators that really
embraces that overlap of bestpractices and next practices.
(16:33):
And, just to be honest, whenyou know, often I write a book
with the goal of like addressinga big challenge that's
happening right.
So it's like how do we makecreativity work?
That was a launch and how do wesolve the engagement challenge?
That was in power.
Vintage innovation was justlike a book I wanted to write
(16:53):
for myself, and so I don't knowif it makes any sense, but it
ended up being the most fun bookthat I ever wrote and it really
was focused on let's have adifferent definition of
innovation, because it's notalways just being future forward
.
Speaker 2 (17:12):
And while we're talking about your books, you've
got a new book out this year,in 2025, right?
Can you tell us a little bitabout that one?
Speaker 4 (17:19):
Yeah.
So that was a book that wasmore on the side of like
addressing current challenges,and so I have been in a lot of
classrooms as a cohort leaderand I've seen changes and a lot
of it.
You know, in fact, the subtitleof the book is your deeper
learning in a distracted worldis about distraction.
(17:41):
But I think it's bigger thandistraction.
I think it's a lot of thesethings that we're seeing a lack
of resilience, a lack ofself-direction.
And as I was thinking aboutthis, I was, um, I was thinking
like where are the spaces thatbuck the trend?
Like where, where am I seeingkids not distracted, not
(18:01):
whatever.
Where am I seeing kids notdistracted, not whatever?
And it was.
You know, I'm a volunteer coachfor mock trial, it was.
It was the mock trial groupwhere they are literally
memorizing pages.
Kids these days can't memorize.
They're doing it, they're beingresilient, they're giving
feedback, they're collaborating,they're communicating.
Um, and so I started thinkingabout that, and then I was
(18:22):
already working on another bookon this topic of deeper learning
, because I was really thinkinglike, what is it that I'm all
about?
It's not just project basedlearning, what is it deeper
learning?
I'd been doing some, some, somekeynotes and conference
sessions.
Um, and I had been just slowlyplugging away at an outline of a
(18:49):
book and then I realized like,oh my gosh, this is it.
We are facing huge challengesand we can either move into
being reactive and just banningeverything and going
hyper-traditional and I didn'twant't want to see that right or
we can try to compete with theculture, with.
I've seen all these programswhere it's like kids on the
computer non-stop with an ipad,getting badges, getting instant
(19:13):
feedback every 15 seconds.
There's a new stimulus and Iwas like that's just feeding
into this dopamine casino, rightand um, and I remember reading
anxious generation at the sametime and it was like, oh, this
is so true.
And so I thought what is thesolution?
It's not just one of those two.
(19:34):
It really comes down to deeperlearning, and so that's where it
came from.
And, um, I had so much funwriting it.
I mean, I enjoy writing andmaking my visuals and stuff like
that and the book just came outlast Friday, I think awesome
congratulations.
Speaker 3 (19:55):
Thanks, dopamine casino.
Speaker 4 (19:59):
I mean that's definitely a phrase I'm gonna
use, because I mean absolutelytrue, right yeah, I mean, and
and we had an open conversationin the car with the kids.
They brought it up first, firstmy oldest, just like it was
like I feel like my attentionspan is falling.
(20:22):
I feel like when I'm havingconversations with people, I'm
getting impatient with them.
I'm, you know those types ofthings.
He's an avid reader, but he'slike I feel like I'm stopping
reading after three, three orfour minutes instead of really
leaning into it for hours, andso, even when, when we find
(20:43):
reasons why and stuff, it is aconstant battle in terms of a
habit.
And so I think you know one ofmy goals is the book is written
for teachers, but one of myhopes is that parents can also
embrace this idea of like.
What does deeper learning looklike?
What does it mean to developthose essential skills and
habits and mindsets?
(21:03):
And my children I mean myoldest is 20 and setting
parameters for himself we have adevice called a brick which,
when you turn it on, we all haveto agree as a family to do this
, but when we watch a movie, weturn the brick on and that turns
off the ability of any of ourphones to get email or social
(21:28):
media.
So you select which apps.
We can still get that emergencytext because my wife and I have
older parents and so we both,you know, we, we don't want to
be cut off from the world, butwe do want to be cut off from
social media, and so we'reliterally using this device and,
um, it's one of the best thingsaround, like, and we've agreed
(21:50):
to it, and so, um, I think it'sa, I think it's a very real.
I'll also add one more piece tothat.
A lot of it gets labeled asadolescence or kids these days,
or there's the anxiousgeneration that I mentioned.
Love the book.
Don't necessarily love thenotion of labeling a whole
generation as blank right,because millennials were all
(22:12):
labeled as narcissistic and thenstudies prove that they're
actually, in terms of clinicallevels and studies of narcissism
, they're actually the lowest ofall generations.
So we want to make sure thatwe're not like labeling the
whole generation.
I would argue that that lack ofattention I see it with every
generation.
(22:32):
I see it with my parents.
My parents show up and they uselike, the iPad and they're
getting news alerts nonstop andworrying constantly.
You know I'm living that withan additional generation.
So I think it's more I wouldn'tsay generational, more of a
cultural trend that we reallyhave to address, and I think
(22:53):
schools, fortunately, are one ofthe best spaces where we can
cultivate that deeper learning,deeper work, deeper engagement
in a culture that often pushesshallow and instant amusement.
Speaker 3 (23:09):
Thank you so much for this conversation, John.
We're going to have to have youback at another time.
Speaker 4 (23:14):
I would love to Um, we're going to have to have you
back at another time.
Speaker 3 (23:17):
Yeah, Um, this is the point.
In the show we ask our guestsfor a paired on pointer, just a
quick tip or strategy to justhelp people you know, pare down
in the things that they're doing.
Could be something youmentioned or maybe something you
do.
What would you offer to ourlisteners?
Speaker 4 (23:32):
You know, one of the things that I would say is I
would recommend a quick strategyon the self-direction piece,
and so I'm just going to share alittle strategy.
Take a gradual release ofresponsibility towards student
empowerment, and so I'm going towalk you through kind of what I
have done myself.
So step one is ask yourselfwhat am I doing for students
(23:56):
that they could be doing forthemselves?
And make a list of all thoseareas that students should be
owning and then build in agradual release.
So in week one we're going tofocus on this.
In week two we're not going toget students owning the
assessment process until weekfour or whatever, and really
(24:17):
take a gradual release approachto student ownership.
Or, in the same way, we're goingto do a mini project first and
then a full-blown PBL.
We're going to do a tic-tac-toestyle choice menu and then move
into an advanced choice menuand then move into something a
little bit deeper like a geniushour project choice menu and
(24:37):
then move into something alittle bit deeper like a genius
hour project.
And the reason I say that is,as we think about these
challenges, if they really areskills to develop and habits,
that's really challenging for astudent and can feel
overwhelming in terms ofbuilding in self-direction and
choice, and so takingincremental steps and building
on those easy wins helpsstudents feel more confident and
(25:01):
it gives you signs of successthat you then can build on
yourself as you teach, and so Iwould say that would be my thing
, that you could pare down in.
I'll just focus on one area,that self-direction piece, and
really figure out how to build aplan year long, of how you're
going to gradually add more andmore voice and choice.
Speaker 3 (25:22):
That's awesome.
Thank you so much, john, andthanks for being a guest with us
today.
Speaker 4 (25:27):
Thanks, I appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
Today's episode was brought to you by Plan Z
Professional Learning Servicesforward-thinking educator
support.
Find out more atplanzplservicescom.
Speaker 1 (25:42):
Thank you for listening to the Minimalist
Educator Podcast.
Join Christine and Tammy andguests again next time for more
conversations about how tosimplify and clarify the
responsibilities and tasks inyour role.
If today's episode helped yourethink, reimagine, reduce or
realign something in yourpractice, share it in a comment
(26:03):
or with a colleague.
For resources and updates,visit planzeducationcom and
subscribe to receive weeklyemails.
Until next time, keep it simpleand stay intentional.
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