December 2, 2025 • 42 mins
What if the fastest path to a better school isn’t a new program, but a sharper focus on the people already doing the right work? We sit down with leadership expert and bestselling author Todd Whitaker to map a clear, practical route from average to exceptional. Todd shares why every school already holds the blueprint for success: great teachers are proving what’s possible with the same students and constraints, and how leaders can replicate those wins across the building.
We dig into the daily moves that change culture: show up in classrooms, praise specifically, and make faculty meetings a source of actionable ideas rather than calendar clutter. Todd explains how to use “learning relationships” to anchor trust, why proximity and engaging lessons beat gimmicks, and how subtle tactics; like timing visits and modeling greetings, raise student engagement. He also offers a simple filter for busy leaders: if it doesn’t help you hire better people or improve the ones you have, minimize it.
Clarity sits at the center of strong schools. Todd outlines how to teach expectations before correction, separate ignorance from insubordination, and prevent problems by setting norms in advance. You’ll hear concrete strategies for assemblies, hallway presence, staff memos, and faculty facilitation, plus a candid look at addressing negativity without draining morale. The standout takeaway: make every decision based on your best people. Superstars want everyone to succeed, including you, and their example can quietly reset the standard for the whole staff.
If you’re ready to trade noise for impact and build a culture that lifts teaching every day, this conversation delivers focused, field-tested steps you can use tomorrow. Subscribe, share with a colleague, and leave a review with the one practice you’ll start this week.
Find our book The Minimalist Teacher and Your School Leadership Edit: A Minimalist Approach to Rethinking Your School's Ecosystem at the links!
Follow on Instagram @PlanZEducation and @minimalist_ed_podcast.
The Minimalist Educator Podcast is a Plan Z Education Services adventure.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:16):
Welcome to the Minimalist Educator podcast,
where the focus is on a less ismore approach to education.
Join your hosts, ChristineArnold and Tammy Musiowski,
authors of The MinimalistTeacher and your school
leadership edit, a minimalistapproach to rethinking your
school ecosystem, each week asthey explore practical ways to
simplify your work, sharpen yourfocus, and amplify what matters
(00:40):
most so you can teach and leadwith greater clarity, purpose,
and joy.
SPEAKER_03 (00:46):
This week we're joined by Todd Whitaker, talking
to us about leadership inschools.
His peer-down pointer is makeall your decisions based on your
best people.
Todd Whitaker is one of thenation's leading authorities on
teacher and principaleffectiveness, staff morale,
(01:06):
teacher leadership, and schoolculture and climate.
Todd has written over 65 books,including The National
Bestseller, What Great TeachersDo Differently.
SPEAKER_02 (01:18):
Hello.
We're looking forward to ourconversation today with Todd
Whitaker, who is awell-recognized speaker, author,
educator for many years.
SPEAKER_00 (01:33):
I'm doing great.
And since I have minimalisttalent, I feel like this is the
podcast that I should be a partof.
SPEAKER_02 (01:40):
Of course.
That's why we invited.
So can you tell us a little bit?
We like to get a little bit morebackground on our guests besides
just the bio that we provide.
But can you tell us a little bitabout your journey into?
So now you do a lot of speakingwith leadership teams and build
leadership capacity.
(02:00):
What brought you to that pointfrom where you started?
SPEAKER_00 (02:05):
Actually, when I was a principal in Jefferson City,
Missouri, believe it or not, wehad visitors from all over the
world every day of the year toour school, every single day.
And this is pre-social media,pre-anything.
And then people would come andwant myself or myself and some
of my teachers to come and workwith their schools.
And that's literally where itstarted.
(02:27):
And then we were doing thingsthen that I assumed every school
in the world would be doing intwo years, and most of the
things no one else has everdone.
So it's really kind of a funnything.
And then I started doing alittle presenting in Missouri,
and our principal, oursuperintendent was phenomenal,
would let us do anything wewanted.
And my wife used to present morethan I did, but then we had
(02:49):
kids, you know, who kind ofruined everything.
But anyhow, the oursuperintendent would let us do
anything, but I just felt guiltyjumping on my assistant
principals, not being there.
And so I moved to a universitylevel at Indiana, preparing
people to be superintendents andprincipals because I thought it
gave me a little moreflexibility.
And it also kind of reinforcesthat, you know, that that's a
(03:12):
positive thing if you work withcommunities.
It's a positive thing if youwork with groups.
And that's kind of how it allstarted.
SPEAKER_02 (03:19):
That's a powerful journey to take.
So what have you seen?
And I mean, this has been overmany years, obviously, but what
have you seen that in your kindof journey from you know school
based to, you know kind ofoutside of schools, let's say
(03:40):
now?
So you're coming in as aconsultant, a speaker, an
author.
What are you seeing right nowthat and I want to stay
positive.
What are some of the greatestjoys right now that you're
seeing when you work withteachers?
SPEAKER_00 (03:53):
And you don't have to stay positive because I'll
pull us in the boat.
It really is just we have awhole bunch of people who care a
ton.
SPEAKER_02 (04:02):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (04:02):
And but you know, one of the things I've realized
so often people that areattacking are literally, they
just make stuff up.
And most of the things about,you know, there's not kitty
litter in classrooms and allthis nonsensical stuff, it's
made up.
And the number of people, thehigher percentage of people just
care and try every day isincredible.
(04:23):
And I think that's the hope isthat, you know, in education,
sometimes we get confusedbecause our job is not to
reflect society, our job is tocultivate society.
And to have new and betterpeople, we have to have new and
better adults.
And I think our knowledge interms of education and
understanding how to besuccessful, understanding the
(04:45):
importance of it, just continuesto grow all the time.
And that's the thing I mostenjoy.
I and I love working with peoplethat have chosen to devote their
life to making a differencethat's better for the world.
And most professions aren't likethat.
And we happen to be veryfortunate to be connected with a
profession that is like that.
(05:06):
And that that and of itself is ablessing.
But just the number of peoplethat care and try every day are
are it's really amazing.
SPEAKER_03 (05:14):
Yeah, it is quite amazing to be a part of and to
witness as well.
I I feel like when I'm lookingat the work that you've got out
there, it really is about thepeople, about the relationships.
Why is that such a center of thework that you do?
SPEAKER_00 (05:31):
Well, I I will I'm gonna stop at the people because
one of the things that I'vealways known is it's people,
it's not programs.
You know, my most recent book iscalled How to Get All Teachers
to Become Like the BestTeachers, because in my mind,
we've solved the problems.
In every, let's just say, stateor every country or every area,
(05:52):
in every school everywhere, youhave at least one teacher that's
cracked the Da Vinci code.
So you have one person that'sbeen able to be successful in
that school with those kids,with those adults, with that
budget, with that leadership,with that governor, with that
commissioner of education, withthat, whatever it is, and it
shows it's possible.
Because we have a lot of peoplewho like to pretend it's not
(06:13):
possible.
But in every school it'spossible.
And instead of thinking, how doI innovate?
I think it's so much simpler tothink, how do I replicate?
And even though we think abouthow times have changed, you
know, it's isn't it reallyweird?
If you think back to the bestteacher you've ever had, they'd
be really good now, too.
(06:33):
And you think back to the worstteacher you've ever had, I'm
talking about you as a K-12student or at the college level,
the worst people, they'd also bereally bad now.
And ineffective people alwayswant to go backwards, average
people always want to stay wherethey're at, and effective people
always want to move forward.
Because ineffective peoplealways like to blame something
(06:53):
outside of their control forthem being ineffective.
And they actually hope it'sthings out of their control that
make them ineffective, andhighly effective people always
want it to be things withintheir control that allow them to
be effective.
So one finds prop solutions andone finds problems.
And it's just which one of thosetwo things do you want to be in
in education?
We have to always be on the sideof right, and so many of the
(07:16):
people are.
It's it's just amazing.
SPEAKER_02 (07:18):
You said so many things there that I want to
respond to, but what was comingto mind is how do we get people
in the profession and outside ofthe profession even to
understand that it really isabout cultivating the next
generations in a positive way.
(07:39):
And because it it is aboutmindset.
And so, how do you what are somethings that you share with
leaders about shifting a mindsetwhere people are kind of stuck
in what education is or whatthey think it is?
SPEAKER_00 (07:53):
What's funny is I don't think we have to convert
people.
I thought I think sometimes welose sight of that.
I think it's we have to keepthem in that mindset.
I don't believe people got intoeducation not believing that
mindset.
SPEAKER_02 (08:05):
Sure.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (08:06):
And so what happens is, you know, when you hire a
new teacher, you have one goal,and that's for your school to
become more like your newteacher, not for your new
teacher to become like theschool.
And if that's not your goal,you're hiring the wrong people.
We hire people who do believe.
And so it's just realizing ourfirst step is to keep those
people that believe believing.
(08:27):
Our first step isn't to get thepeople that aren't believing to
start believing.
That's our second step, if thatmakes any sense.
Because you have some whoalready believe.
My fear is that all of a sudden,my fear is always the new people
become like then the morenegative people in a school.
That's more concerning to me.
But I think it's just one personat a time, one school at a time,
(08:49):
one principal at a time, oneleader at a time.
It isn't education, it's thisschool.
And we've seen it instantly,where in a highly effective
principal goes into a school andthe school is literally
different almost overnight.
And so that just shows it'spossible and it's possible
everywhere.
So I think when you have adysfunctional leader, what
(09:13):
happens is nobody knows whyeverything's dysfunctional.
And they think they don't knowwhat the think about this.
If you have a highly ineffectiveteacher, every student is
misbehaving.
Every student's misbehaving.
And we can't figure out whichkids are the ones that are
chronic misbehaviors oranything.
(09:34):
If a great teacher walks in,instantly almost every kid
starts behaving.
But if there are one or twostill behaving, misbehaving, now
you know it is these two kids.
So in an environment, if youdon't have an effective leader,
everybody's misbehaving, meaningjust not at their best, not
doing the best things.
I don't mean they're allstealing paperclips, you know, I
(09:55):
mean, but potentially they'renot doing their very best.
And when a functional leadercomes in, all of a sudden we
find out oh, that's only thesetwo people.
It was never the group, it wasnever education, it was never
teachers.
And so I think it's I we havetwo ways to improve schools, in
my opinion (10:13):
hire better people and improve the ones we have.
And you have to have exceptionalleaders because average leaders
don't want to hire exceptionalpeople because they know they
know.
And so it starts off with havingexceptional leadership.
And and the other thing we'vegotten confused about, in my
opinion, is we talk aboutrelationships, relationships,
(10:33):
relationships.
We're a school, it's got to be alearning relationship.
You know, this isn't a dinnerparty.
unknown (10:39):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (10:40):
I say if you're gonna have a dinner party and
you want it to be fun, inviteme.
I'm not kidding.
For the first 90 minutes, it isthe funnest, except for the
grammar, it is the funnest thingyou've ever had.
But my act gets old after 90minutes.
But what happens is everylong-term relationship involves
learning.
And it can be learning bigpicture, how we care for each
(11:00):
other, how we treat each other,how we're respectful to our
colleagues and peers.
But it starts with the learningrelationship, not a how's your
puppy relationship.
And there's nothing wrong withasking how their puppy is, but
at some point it becomes a dog.
But if you're not, what's reallyinteresting is I I ask this of
(11:20):
of of uh parents, educators,everybody.
You get to choose your if youhave a kid, if you get to choose
their teacher next year, butonly on description, and you
have a choice of two twoteachers.
One that has engaging lessonsevery single day, other ones
that comes to your son'sbasketball game once a month.
Which one will you choose?
Everyone wants the teacherthat's engaging every day.
(11:45):
And if a teacher has engaginglessons every day, you don't
care if they come to your kids'basketball game.
They have a permanentlyconnected relationship.
But it's the learningrelationship, and we've gotten
confused and we think it's Ialways say leadership's not an
event, teaching's not an event.
It's a it's a drumbeat.
It's what we do.
(12:05):
I don't want to be a leaderthat's like the missing parent
who brings lots of presents atChristmas but doesn't have a
relationship the rest of theyear.
And I don't want to be theteacher that the one unit a year
I'm really good at, but it's thebest teacher sits 10 days out of
10, the best leader sits 10 daysout of 10, and that's a pretty
high percentage.
And I used to teach math.
(12:25):
And it's just helping peopleunderstand it's a constant
drumbeat on how we treat andinteract with people.
That's the relationship, in myopinion.
SPEAKER_03 (12:36):
Yeah, coming back to that idea of an exceptional
leader, I'm I'm wondering, youknow, we talk a lot, Tammy and
I, about all the noise that canthat can come with being in a
school environment and how yourattention gets pulled in a
million different directions allthe time.
So I I hope it's not coveringthe same thing that you've just
(12:58):
talked about there.
But how could how would yourecommend that school leaders
sort of filter through thatnoise and that busyness to work
on being that exceptional leaderthat that has the right kind of
learning relationship and notget too distracted with
everything else?
SPEAKER_00 (13:15):
Yeah, and I think it's I think it's teaching the
teachers to have the learningrelationship too, obviously.
I always the best way for aprincipal to take care of the
students is to take care of theteachers.
And then the teachers take careof the students, and it's it's
not getting confused that way.
Well, the first thing is, andthis is really kind of funny, if
there's an average principalalmost always, it's because an
(13:35):
average superintendent hired anaverage teacher who became an
average principal.
Because a great teacher wouldnever become, will never become
an average principal.
It's not in their DNA.
unknown (13:44):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (13:45):
And if the great teacher left and managed a
McDonald's, almost immediately,literally immediately, that
McDonald's would be better.
Because the way the teacherwould treat people would be kind
to people, act professional,look professional, dress
professional, interact in aprofessional way.
Other people would see it, butthey'd also teach people how to
(14:05):
greet the customers, and theyget to see it.
Literally, the first customerwalks in the door, that person's
been there one minute, andthey're gonna see somebody treat
that person in a more respectfulway than they've ever had.
But one of the traits the greatteacher has is an incredible
ability to ignore.
And ignore does not mean that Imistreat.
Ignore means I'm choosing whatto respond to and not to respond
(14:28):
to, just like the great parent.
Well, that great teacher who hasan ability to ignore becomes a
principal.
Guess what?
They have an incredible abilityto do: ignore the things that
aren't significant in theirschool.
And if as a leader, if youremember the two ways to improve
your school or hire betterteachers and improve the ones
you have, anything that doesn'tlead to one of those two things,
I try to put minimal time andenergy and effort and resources
(14:51):
into it.
Because I want to get back tothe things that really make a
difference.
I'm gonna be in classroomsbecause that's what matters in
the school.
And what's interesting is if youhave a teacher that sits behind
their desk, it isn't becausethey're lazy, it's because
they're scared of the kids.
And the desk is comfort forthem.
(15:11):
If you have a principal thatdoesn't go in classrooms, it's
not because they're lazy, it'sbecause they're scared of
teachers.
They don't know what to do if Iwalk in and a kid's misbehaving,
and they really would don't knowwhat to do if the teacher's
misbehaving.
But if you have a teacher, justthink about this.
If you have a teacher whoseinstinct is to be in the school
and be around the school and bewith kids every day and walk
(15:32):
around their classroom andinteract with every kid, well,
of course that's what they'rewanting to do if they're a
principal.
But if you hire an averageteacher, that's not what they
did as a teacher.
So there's no way they're gonnado that as a principal, if that
makes sense.
The biggest disadvantage aprincipal has is if they've
never worked with a greatprincipal, because then you have
to figure it out on your own.
(15:52):
And I always say we'resurrounded by so much average we
start to think average is right.
Great principles withoutexception, almost all my books
are based on research.
I just take the research outbecause I think nobody will read
them.
A great principal every singlegreat principal has faculty
meetings teachers look forwardto in value.
(16:15):
No average principal has facultymeetings teachers look forward
to in value.
Well, just think if I workedwith an average or below average
principal, the faculty meetingswere a joke.
And if I became a principal, I'dthink faculty meetings are
supposed to be a joke.
Or I'd at least think it'sacceptable for them to be a
joke, if that makes sense.
If I work with a great principalthat's faculty meetings were
(16:36):
valued, do you see how I haveone way of starting my faculty
meetings when I become aprincipal that's going to work?
And that doesn't mean I don'tbring in my own personality, I
don't have my own tweaks, Idon't have to copy that person,
but I see some of the thingsthey do by involving and
teaching.
You know, the minimum goal ofevery faculty meeting is for
teachers to be more excitedabout teaching tomorrow than
(16:58):
they were today.
Why do we suck the life out ofpeople?
And but what makes it morevaluable isn't a YouTube clip.
And some of them are funny withcats and stuff, and it isn't
cupcakes, and I like to snortfrosting.
What makes your faculty meetingsvalued is when people can leave
and immediately have in theirown classroom to be more
(17:18):
successful.
But instead, what happens is wethink a funny YouTube clip does
that.
And there's not funny YouTubeclips.
But what happens is guess whenthe office guess what their goal
is for every meeting they havewith principals, is for the
principals to be more excitedabout principal in tomorrow than
they were today.
Why do we suck the life out ofthem?
(17:39):
And as a principal, we've allbeen in meetings at central
office where we want to take aletter opener and stick it in
our thigh to make sure we'restill alive.
You know, I mean, but if the ifthe superintendent's
exceptional, that's not what thef the meetings for principals
would be like.
And then those principals getmodels that they can take back
to their own school.
But if you're surrounded byaverage, it's really hard to
crack that by yourself.
SPEAKER_02 (18:01):
Yeah.
Yeah.
There's again so many thingsthere that I want.
I'm I'm trying to like pick outthe one thing that's sticking
with me the most, but there's somany.
I'm thinking about you know,usually meetings are the bane of
the people's existence atschools.
(18:21):
And sometimes school leaders tryto like pad it with like, well,
we have like treats and snacksand coffee for you.
And so sometimes these somewhat,you know, nice little comforts
for teachers are okay for awhile, but it doesn't really
help build the culture and helpbuild effective teaching.
(18:41):
So what are some what are sometips you would have for school
leaders to like make thatmeeting more engaging?
Or we don't like to use the termbuy-in because we know that's
kind of like a false pretense.
We want people to be feelinvested.
And like you said, the peoplethat are in it are gonna be in
(19:02):
it, and the people that are kindof you know borderline might not
be.
But what are some things thatyou have done in your experience
or you talk about with schoolleaders that you know just get
people to be excited aboutcoming back and teaching again
or leaving the school againtomorrow in a in a bigger way?
SPEAKER_00 (19:20):
Okay.
We can talk about meetings, wecan talk about day-to-day.
I have a question for you.
Tammy, if Tammy and Christine,if you all have company, do you
ever vacuum?
SPEAKER_03 (19:30):
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00 (19:32):
Okay.
And if your vacuum's broken, doyou still go ahead and rub it
over the rug just to get thelines in so that the people come
over think it was vacuumed?
SPEAKER_03 (19:40):
No, I've never done that.
I've never done that, I have tosay.
SPEAKER_00 (19:44):
But if it was broken, don't tell me you
wouldn't, Christine.
Now you're thinking it's apretty good idea.
You know, so anyhow, now youdon't have to get the extension
cord.
You know, you can just run it.
But what's interesting is one ofthe best ways to make anyone
feel better is to complimentthem.
We get so few compliments.
(20:05):
You have to make teachers feelimportant because they are
important.
Day one, you just go start goingin classrooms.
And I call it look for the goodparts.
Sometimes you have to squint.
And and believe me, if I justcome in your room, you try
harder, you get out from behindyour desk, you interact with
kids more, I write you a note.
It was funny.
I was just working withprincipals where I talked about
(20:26):
do any of you have teachers thatsit behind their desk too much?
Every principal, almost everyprincipal, raised their hand.
I said, okay, let's pretendthere's 180 days in the school
year, day one through day 180.
What day of the year would youguess the teacher that sits
behind their desk is the leastlikely to be sitting behind
their desk?
So do either of you have aguess?
What day, day day one through180, what day are they least
(20:49):
likely to be sitting behindtheir desk?
SPEAKER_02 (20:53):
I'm gonna say like day 40.
SPEAKER_00 (20:56):
Okay, tell me how you came with 40, and I'm not
even gonna ask you to explain.
It's day one.
Okay, because they haven't givenup yet, they haven't gotten
cynical yet, they haven't gottennaked, they have some energy in
day one.
And I have to admit, I wouldn'thave guessed that.
But anyway, would you agreethere's a chance day one is a
better chance than any other dayexcept day 40?
SPEAKER_02 (21:18):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (21:18):
Okay, got it.
So day one.
With that in mind, if it's ahigh school teacher and they
have a seven period day, guesswhat period the first day the
teacher is least likely to besitting behind their desk?
SPEAKER_02 (21:34):
Probably first period.
SPEAKER_00 (21:36):
Excellent.
Guess what hour and day I'mgonna be in that teacher's
classroom?
SPEAKER_02 (21:41):
You're gonna be there right away, first thing.
SPEAKER_00 (21:43):
And you know what I'm gonna do?
I'm gonna catch them doingsomething right, and I'm gonna
write them a note.
And I'm gonna let's pretend it'syou, Tammy.
I'm gonna write a note.
And it may be two days later youget the note.
It doesn't make any difference.
It's not it's not a speed race.
I'm gonna go, Tammy.
I noticed the other day when Iwas in your classroom, I was
amazed as you were walkingaround how it engaged kids that
typically weren't ever engaged.
I remember you walked by Owenand all of a sudden he was
(22:05):
attentive.
And I remember him not beingnear as attentive last year.
And I never even thought abouthow just your presence and just
the using proximity and walkingaround causes a higher level of
engagement by the actions of ateacher.
I, as you know, I do a series ofworkshops with our new teachers.
Tammy, would it be okay if Iused your yours as an example
(22:26):
with the new teachers so theycould get a sense of just how
being up and around and activeas a teacher can lay raise a
higher level of engagement bythe students?
Is that okay if I share thatwith them, Tammy?
SPEAKER_02 (22:37):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_00 (22:38):
You'd like it, wouldn't you?
SPEAKER_02 (22:40):
Yeah.
unknown (22:40):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (22:41):
Tammy, and nobody's ever done that before, you have
they?
SPEAKER_02 (22:44):
No.
SPEAKER_00 (22:45):
Especially if you're not effective.
I mean, I'm not trying to bemean, especially.
So, Tammy, then if day three Iwalk in, what do you think that
teacher's more likely to bedoing than they ever were doing
on day three in the first 22years in their career?
SPEAKER_02 (22:58):
They're probably standing up and moving around.
SPEAKER_00 (23:00):
And Tammy, just so you can feel smart on your
answer, guess what on day 40they're more likely to be doing
than but Tammy, if on day 40they're not, but I walk in, what
are they more likely to do thanthey would have done on a
typical day 40?
SPEAKER_02 (23:15):
Yeah, they'll probably get up.
SPEAKER_00 (23:19):
You don't, kids don't kids don't become kind
because we tell them to be kind.
Kids become kind because wetreat them with kindness.
And if that if a stud if ateacher student taught with an
average teacher, they're likelyto think average is right.
(23:41):
No undergraduate program in theworld has a class on griping in
the teacher's lounge.
But if as a principal, I don'thelp my new teachers understand
this isn't what we do, thenthey're gonna think it's right
because the person I let themmentor them, because I was an
average principal, I gave theman average mentor.
(24:01):
This is what they do, so thenthey think this is what they're
supposed to do.
So at faculty meetings, I'lleven talk about that.
Just think about at a facultymeeting, Tammy.
Let's pretend it was your classI did that in.
And then at a faculty meeting, Isay, You all amaze me.
I don't know how you do this.
Recently I was in one of ouroutstanding teachers'
classrooms, and I was in there,and she was just up walking
(24:22):
around, and I noticed when shewalked by kids how much more
attentive they were.
I learned so much from you all.
And I'm gonna try to keep an eyeon that so I can continue to
learn as I come in classrooms ona regular basis with her.
Do you see, Tammy, how I taughteveryone that same concept that
I taught that that I reinforcedher for?
unknown (24:41):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (24:41):
I believe in teachers greeting kids, but
greeting kids can mean a varietyof different things.
For some teachers, greeting kidsmeans looking and smiling and
making eye contact with everykid.
It's that's great, to me, that'sthe same.
Well, what's interesting is Italk about it at the first
faculty meeting of the year.
Then we were 98% of us are doingit in the at the very beginning,
(25:03):
but gradually we get a littleworn off, and somewhere around,
say, I don't know, day 40,anyhow, there's less people
doing that.
And then what happens is I writein my Friday focus.
I don't know where you get theenergy to do this, but it's an
incredible impact on our school.
And I'm gonna let you in on asecret.
(25:23):
You all are the reason the kidslike coming here to school so
much.
And I'm gonna let you in onanother secret.
You all are the reason.
I like coming here to school somuch.
Thanks for what you do.
(25:43):
Could could that be somethingpeople like at the faculty
meeting, Tammy?
SPEAKER_02 (25:48):
Absolutely.
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (25:50):
And which teachers think I was talking about them?
SPEAKER_02 (25:53):
All of them.
SPEAKER_00 (25:54):
Nope.
The ones that are greeting kids.
SPEAKER_02 (25:56):
Well, yes, but uh, and so I would I'm my my my
thinking is that all of themhave been doing the greeting, so
you're speaking to all of them.
SPEAKER_00 (26:04):
But yeah, everyone who's greeting kids.
And what's interesting is Tammy,do you get to see what I value
as a principal?
SPEAKER_02 (26:10):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (26:11):
Do you get to see how you get to feel special by
just doing the right thing?
SPEAKER_02 (26:15):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_00 (26:17):
And I'm not excluding an and and Tammy, my
first book was dealing withdifficult teachers.
So understand if I have somebodywho is negative and harmful, I
will deal with them, but I'llnever deal with them at the good
people's expense.
unknown (26:29):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (26:29):
I always say you always treat a difficult teacher
as if the whole faculty was inthe room watching.
Because the the rest of thefaculty want you to deal with
them.
They just want you to deal withthem in a professional,
respectful manner, which isexactly what the great teachers
do.
The great teachers, what happensis kids want the great teachers
dealing with the kids who arebeing too too high a level of
disruption.
(26:50):
They just want them to deal witha respectful and professional
manner.
And it's the same thing.
So all of these things can bedone at faculty meetings,
because at faculty meetings, Ijust share with the group or
recall with the group somethingthat I saw recently, something
that I heard recently, somethingelse someone else mentioned.
And I have something called theFriday Focus.
If you've read motivatinginspiring teachers, single best
(27:11):
leadership tool I've ever used.
It's my staff memo.
And I know all take a look atthat and then have that memo
quickly.
Because I make you feelimportant, I make you feel
special, I teach you what'ssignificant, I reinforce what's
significant, I treat you in away I want you to treat other
(27:32):
people, but I talk to you abouthow to I talk about what we do
at assemblies that's for theteachers.
How what do ineffective peopledo?
And the teachers say, standagainst the wall, sit in the
back.
And you know what I say?
I go, the people that were doingthat didn't know they were doing
it wrong.
Because the first thing we haveto sort out are people ignorant
or insubordinate.
And we almost always thinkthey're insubordinate, they're
(27:52):
almost always ignorant, unaware.
But what happens is you didn'tknow that your colleagues knew
you're not sitting with thekids, and now they have to watch
your class too.
But I teach them that before theassembly because I don't want to
catch you doing wrong.
I want you to teach you to do itright.
And so it's just understand,people want to be good.
I promise they want to be good.
(28:14):
You just have to teach them howto be good, reinforce them from
being good, and thenindividually work with people
who are choosing for whateverreason, either lack of knowledge
or lack of effort to do theright thing.
And it I it it every book I'veever written, I almost wanted to
call it simple, it's just noteasy.
(28:35):
Because if it's reallycomplicated, I couldn't do it.
I'm not smart enough.
But if it's simple, I can do itand I can teach everybody else
how to do it too.
So it's that things at facultymeetings, it's it's particular
tips.
Sometimes I have teachers sharewhat it is.
We got to the point whereteachers were video were
recording their own classrooms,and then someone would bring it
(28:56):
to me and ask questions andthis.
Some of those clips we'd show atfaculty meetings with the
permission of the teacher,obviously, and and what it was.
I uh and just I would talk aboutthings I've heard from parents
during this week.
Things I ask kids what they likebest about school, and and one
of the kids goes, the way theteachers treat us.
And you walk you're proud to bea part of that school, aren't
(29:19):
you?
SPEAKER_02 (29:20):
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00 (29:21):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And you want to be a good guy.
Because you see the value ofbeing the good guys.
And it's just it's just helpingpeople.
They just want to be good.
And there's there is negativity,but it isn't because of outside
things.
It comes it's the negative thatconcerns me, is the ones that
comes in that's internal.
(29:43):
That's what concerns me.
And I teach people this abouthow they how they can enjoy the
kids and and and also the otherthing that you get that helps
teach your morale is supportingthe teachers.
You know, I'm I'm in a principalpreparation program and people
People go, well, Todd I gothired, but they wanted an
(30:04):
internal person and I'mexternal.
They wanted an external person,but I'm internal.
They wanted a man, I'm a woman,they wanted a woman, I'm a man.
They wanted someone younger,they wanted someone older,
whatever.
I go, all that matters till thefirst kid's sent to the office.
And if a teacher sees you assupportive, they don't care what
your background is.
And if they don't see you assupportive, they don't care what
your background is.
(30:25):
And it's just helping people.
The leaders want to be good too.
Leading's hard.
It is hard.
We have a lot of Monday morningquarterbacks, but leading's
hard.
I say people always look toleaders, but during times of
crisis, they stare.
Because they're glad it's notthem.
But afterwards, it's great tosay, well, I would have, yeah,
(30:49):
sure you would have.
It's like when people go, I knewthe outcome of the Super Bowl
before it even started.
I go, you must have killed inVegas then.
Turns out they never did bet.
You know, but they they talkedabout what they would have won.
You know, so but I think it'sjust teaching people, people
want to be good, in my opinion.
Everybody wants to be good.
You got into education becauseyou want to make a difference.
And it's just teaching you howto make more of a difference by
(31:11):
being effective.
Kids are going to remember youone way or the other.
How do you want them to rememberyou?
So I don't know if that makessense.
Christine, I don't know if thatmakes any sense.
SPEAKER_03 (31:23):
It does.
It does.
I feel like we're soaking up allof your wisdom here, Todd,
especially that reminder.
SPEAKER_00 (31:29):
Well, I'm about out.
Every day all I am is older anddumber.
So keep that in mind.
SPEAKER_03 (31:36):
I don't believe that.
I don't believe that.
But no, I I especially like thatreminder of like everyone is
trying to do good.
I think that's a really goodreminder when it when times get
tough, is you know, everyone isin it for the right reason.
They're trying to do the rightthing.
SPEAKER_00 (31:51):
If you ever question that, just think of classroom
management.
Classroom management is theeasiest thing to help people
improve in because classroommanagement's selfish.
If any of us could get the kidsto behave better, we'd get the
kids to behave better.
But it isn't telling them to getthe kids to behave better
because you're already gettingthem to behave as well as you
know how.
It's teaching them how.
I always think it's funny, youknow.
(32:12):
I always ask educators, you everbeen told to raise your test
scores?
And everybody laughs.
And I go, I go, how many ofy'all been holding back on that?
You know, but what happens ispeople tell you to raise your
test scores, they don't teachyou because they don't know how.
People tell you to manage yourclassroom instead of teaching
you because they don't know how.
And you just know your leaderdoesn't know how.
And there's nothing wrong withthe leader not knowing how, they
(32:33):
just can't be afraid to askpeople who do know how.
unknown (32:36):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (32:37):
Yeah.
I think that goes to your pointabout, you know, if if teachers
don't know the expectation,right?
So they have to sit with theirkids during the assembly.
If you don't let them know, howdo they know?
And so that's a lot of whatclassroom management is, right?
Like you have to teach theexpectations.
SPEAKER_00 (32:59):
It's significant specificity.
It isn't just no, because forexample, I talk about
superstars, backbones, andmediocres.
If you've read my book, WhatGreat Teachers Do Differently, I
talk about it.
This isn't some mystery secretfor leadership.
This is for everyone.
I want everybody to know.
This is how this is what greatpeople are.
This is what comprises them.
And you can be that.
I don't I don't talk aboutthings you can't do because then
(33:20):
that's discouraging.
However, Tammy, superstars andbackbones both sit by the
challenging kids at theassembly.
But they do it differently.
Average people, do you know howthey sit by the kid?
Revenge mode.
Christine, you're gonna sit byme at this assembly, you're
gonna sit by me at everyassembly of the rest of your
revenge mode.
You know how great people do it?
They pretend it's random.
(33:40):
Everything in great people do,they pretend it's random.
You know the teacher that sitsbehind their desk too much that
first day of school, that firsthour?
I pretend I'm this is just arandom class, I'm walking in.
But there's nothing random ingreat people's actions.
So the great teacher, then whatdo they do?
They walk the kids to theassembly, and you know who they
turn and walk in,coincidentally?
(34:01):
Right when Christine walks in.
Christine, we could just sit byeach other again.
This is the third assembly in arow.
I remember the last one, thebirds of prey, ever since then,
every night I dreamed, theyswooped down and just took you
away.
We get to sit by each otheragain.
But you see how it all seemsrandom, and it's preventing the
other one wants revenge.
(34:22):
But it's teaching my teachersthis.
I'm gonna use the word secretarybecause I'm a hillbelly.
If there's a new principal to aschool, I also work with
business, it's the same thing,every everything's the same.
We just think it's different,we're just wrong.
It's all the same.
Principal to a school.
I could have been a principalelsewhere, but new to this
(34:43):
school.
Did you know the secretary wantsto know how I want them to
answer the phone until theyanswer the phone?
Well, because once they answerthe phone, I'm correcting their
behavior.
SPEAKER_02 (34:55):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (34:55):
And do you know the better they are, the more they
want to know?
It's the opposite of what youthink.
You think the really good peopledon't want to know.
No, they want to know.
Because if that secretary'sreally, really good, he or she,
guess who they want to please?
The boss.
unknown (35:09):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (35:09):
And you know what they want?
They want the new principal toknow they're the best secretary
they've ever worked with.
They've never worked with anyoneas good.
Chance to show you how good Iam.
Give me a task, anyresponsibility.
But if I wait and let you answerthe phone for a week and then I
come and talk to you about howto answer the phone, now I've
corrected your behavior and I'vehurt a relationship.
unknown (35:27):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (35:28):
If you play card games and board games, you want
to know the rules, but you wantto know the rules before the
game starts, unless you're goingto cheat.
unknown (35:34):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (35:35):
And I assume everybody's good.
So I assume everybody wants toknow the guidelines before the
game before the game starts.
And I'm not pretendingteaching's a game, but just
life.
Everybody wants to know.
I don't want to catch you doingwrong.
I want to teach you.
And what's interesting is once Iteach you to do something and
you don't do it, now I know ifyou're ignorant or
insubordinate.
Once I talk about assemblies andnow you continue to stand
against the wall.
(35:58):
Now I know.
And it's very different.
And I'm much more comfortabletalking to you then.
But I even talk to you inprevention mode.
I don't talk to you the dayafter the assembly.
I talk to you the day before thenext assembly.
I don't need you to feel bad.
I need you to do the rightthing.
unknown (36:13):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (36:14):
I have no interest in you feel bad.
I have no interest in youapologizing.
I mean, it's fine if you do.
I'm not saying that's anegative, it's a positive,
obviously.
I just need you to do the rightthing.
I ask all teachers to reflectback when they were in K-12
themselves as students.
And I'll ask both of you alltoo, uh, Christine and Tammy.
When you were a K-12 student,could you name the teachers in
(36:37):
the school that were yellers?
SPEAKER_02 (36:40):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (36:41):
Could every kid in the school name the teachers
that were yellers?
SPEAKER_02 (36:45):
Yes.
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (36:46):
Now that you're teachers, how many of you think
the kids in your schools canname the teachers that are
yellers?
And how many of you realize theteachers can name the teachers
that are yellers?
And how many of you got intoeducation to be known as the
yeller?
SPEAKER_02 (37:05):
I would hope no one.
SPEAKER_00 (37:07):
And my only suggestion is stop.
Just stop.
I'm a proponent of mentalhealth, I don't have a solution
for you.
Just stop.
Nobody wants to be known as theyellers, and you didn't know
your colleagues know, but theyknow.
And they don't like it.
Because they don't want the kidstreated in that way.
(37:28):
When they realize the kids thatmost need our support get
treated in that way all thetime.
And all we can do is stop.
And do you know why peoplechange their behavior?
Because they didn't know theircolleagues knew.
You want to know the definitionof school culture?
That's adult peer pressure.
(37:50):
And it's just teaching people.
You just teach people.
They want to be good.
But I teach this before at thefirst faculty meeting of the
year.
Because Tammy, I don't want youyelling.
Because there's a chance youdidn't know it was wrong.
You student taught with someone,the teacher next to you yells.
I'm not being critical at all.
But once I teach you this, ifnow you continue to do it, it's
(38:11):
a completely different story.
But if I don't teach you this,there's a chance you you thought
it was the right thing to do.
You grew up in that household.
You know, you grew up in thisdynamic, you're in this
relationship.
Whatever it is, it doesn't makeany difference because that's
got to be left, that can't bebrought into the classroom, in
my opinion.
SPEAKER_02 (38:27):
Right.
Yeah, agree.
You know, Todd, we could talk toyou for hours, clearly.
SPEAKER_00 (38:32):
It probably feels like you already have to you.
SPEAKER_02 (38:35):
No, this it's the time has been flying.
But we do need to wrap up thisepisode.
And at the end of each of ourepisodes, we always ask our
guests for a pair-down pointer.
And you've given lots of those,I think, already.
But if you were just going tosay one thing to school leaders,
what is that one thing that youwould say?
SPEAKER_00 (38:56):
I'm not a big fan of one thing, but here is the one
thing (38:58):
make every decision based on your best people, and you'll
never make a wrong decision.
unknown (39:03):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (39:04):
Because your best people want everyone to be
successful.
And you know who else they wantto be successful?
They want you to be successful.
unknown (39:12):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (39:13):
They're on your side.
They're on your side.
They're just scary becausethey're good.
They're just scary becausethey're right.
And they're just scary becausethey know you know.
But your superstars are the onlypeople in the school that always
want the leader to be successfulbecause they know we can't be as
successful if the leader isn'tsuccessful.
(39:33):
So they want the leader to besuccessful.
And you may have some otherpeople that would like it if
they could make the leader cry.
I mean, I'm just letting youthough that.
But the best people always wanteveryone to be successful.
unknown (39:44):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (39:45):
Everyone.
They they see the world as anunlimited sum game.
So make every decision based onyour best people, and you will
literally never make the wrongdecision.
But they can't be perceived asthe leader's pet.
Because if they become, if theyperceived as they can be the
leader's pet.
But if they can't be perceivedas the leader's pet because they
lose credibility to influenceothers then.
And your best people don't wantto be the leader's pet.
(40:05):
Yeah, people don't want to bethe principal's pet, but it's
never the best people.
SPEAKER_02 (40:09):
Yeah.
Thank you so much, Todd.
There's so much knowledge andwisdom in that conversation.
And I know that our listenersare going to soak it up.
So thank you so much for beingwith us today.
SPEAKER_00 (40:21):
And I want to thank the leader listeners for what
they do.
And Todd Whitaker's nobody.
But if I can ever help you, callor email me anytime you want.
My website's toddwitaker.com.
Sadly, I don't have any people.
But sometimes leadership islonely.
And I don't want you, I don'tmind you being alone, but I
don't want you to be lonely.
So if I can ever help you, callor email anytime.
(40:41):
Christine and Tammy can probablyhelp you more than I can, but
I'm a neutral outsider who willlook you in the eye and tell you
the truth.
And as long as you're on theside of the kids, I'm on the
side of you.
So thank you for your leadershipjourney.
Thanks for choosing a positionthat makes a difference every
single day.
That's a rare gift that you'rebringing to your school.
SPEAKER_03 (41:01):
This episode is sponsored by Plan Z Education
Services, supporting educatorswith forward-thinking
professional learning that putsboth student impact and teacher
wellness at the center.
Driven by a vision to teachless, impact more, they help
educators find purpose,prioritize what matters, and
simplify their practice.
Learn more atplanzeducation.com.
SPEAKER_01 (41:26):
Thank you for listening to the Minimalist
Educator Podcast.
Join Christine and Tammy andguests again next time for more
conversations about how tosimplify and clarify the
responsibilities and tasks inyour role.
If today's episode helped yourethink, reimagine, reduce, or
realign something in yourpractice, share it in a comment
(41:47):
or with a colleague.
For resources and updates, visitplanzeducation.com and subscribe
to receive weekly emails.
Until next time, keep it simpleand stay intentional.
Welcome to the Minimalist Educator podcast,
where the focus is on a less ismore approach to education.
Join your hosts, ChristineArnold and Tammy Musiowski,
authors of The MinimalistTeacher and your school
leadership edit, a minimalistapproach to rethinking your
school ecosystem, each week asthey explore practical ways to
simplify your work, sharpen yourfocus, and amplify what matters
(00:40):
most so you can teach and leadwith greater clarity, purpose,
and joy.
SPEAKER_03 (00:46):
This week we're joined by Todd Whitaker, talking
to us about leadership inschools.
His peer-down pointer is makeall your decisions based on your
best people.
Todd Whitaker is one of thenation's leading authorities on
teacher and principaleffectiveness, staff morale,
(01:06):
teacher leadership, and schoolculture and climate.
Todd has written over 65 books,including The National
Bestseller, What Great TeachersDo Differently.
SPEAKER_02 (01:18):
Hello.
We're looking forward to ourconversation today with Todd
Whitaker, who is awell-recognized speaker, author,
educator for many years.
SPEAKER_00 (01:33):
I'm doing great.
And since I have minimalisttalent, I feel like this is the
podcast that I should be a partof.
SPEAKER_02 (01:40):
Of course.
That's why we invited.
So can you tell us a little bit?
We like to get a little bit morebackground on our guests besides
just the bio that we provide.
But can you tell us a little bitabout your journey into?
So now you do a lot of speakingwith leadership teams and build
leadership capacity.
(02:00):
What brought you to that pointfrom where you started?
SPEAKER_00 (02:05):
Actually, when I was a principal in Jefferson City,
Missouri, believe it or not, wehad visitors from all over the
world every day of the year toour school, every single day.
And this is pre-social media,pre-anything.
And then people would come andwant myself or myself and some
of my teachers to come and workwith their schools.
And that's literally where itstarted.
(02:27):
And then we were doing thingsthen that I assumed every school
in the world would be doing intwo years, and most of the
things no one else has everdone.
So it's really kind of a funnything.
And then I started doing alittle presenting in Missouri,
and our principal, oursuperintendent was phenomenal,
would let us do anything wewanted.
And my wife used to present morethan I did, but then we had
(02:49):
kids, you know, who kind ofruined everything.
But anyhow, the oursuperintendent would let us do
anything, but I just felt guiltyjumping on my assistant
principals, not being there.
And so I moved to a universitylevel at Indiana, preparing
people to be superintendents andprincipals because I thought it
gave me a little moreflexibility.
And it also kind of reinforcesthat, you know, that that's a
(03:12):
positive thing if you work withcommunities.
It's a positive thing if youwork with groups.
And that's kind of how it allstarted.
SPEAKER_02 (03:19):
That's a powerful journey to take.
So what have you seen?
And I mean, this has been overmany years, obviously, but what
have you seen that in your kindof journey from you know school
based to, you know kind ofoutside of schools, let's say
(03:40):
now?
So you're coming in as aconsultant, a speaker, an
author.
What are you seeing right nowthat and I want to stay
positive.
What are some of the greatestjoys right now that you're
seeing when you work withteachers?
SPEAKER_00 (03:53):
And you don't have to stay positive because I'll
pull us in the boat.
It really is just we have awhole bunch of people who care a
ton.
SPEAKER_02 (04:02):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (04:02):
And but you know, one of the things I've realized
so often people that areattacking are literally, they
just make stuff up.
And most of the things about,you know, there's not kitty
litter in classrooms and allthis nonsensical stuff, it's
made up.
And the number of people, thehigher percentage of people just
care and try every day isincredible.
(04:23):
And I think that's the hope isthat, you know, in education,
sometimes we get confusedbecause our job is not to
reflect society, our job is tocultivate society.
And to have new and betterpeople, we have to have new and
better adults.
And I think our knowledge interms of education and
understanding how to besuccessful, understanding the
(04:45):
importance of it, just continuesto grow all the time.
And that's the thing I mostenjoy.
I and I love working with peoplethat have chosen to devote their
life to making a differencethat's better for the world.
And most professions aren't likethat.
And we happen to be veryfortunate to be connected with a
profession that is like that.
(05:06):
And that that and of itself is ablessing.
But just the number of peoplethat care and try every day are
are it's really amazing.
SPEAKER_03 (05:14):
Yeah, it is quite amazing to be a part of and to
witness as well.
I I feel like when I'm lookingat the work that you've got out
there, it really is about thepeople, about the relationships.
Why is that such a center of thework that you do?
SPEAKER_00 (05:31):
Well, I I will I'm gonna stop at the people because
one of the things that I'vealways known is it's people,
it's not programs.
You know, my most recent book iscalled How to Get All Teachers
to Become Like the BestTeachers, because in my mind,
we've solved the problems.
In every, let's just say, stateor every country or every area,
(05:52):
in every school everywhere, youhave at least one teacher that's
cracked the Da Vinci code.
So you have one person that'sbeen able to be successful in
that school with those kids,with those adults, with that
budget, with that leadership,with that governor, with that
commissioner of education, withthat, whatever it is, and it
shows it's possible.
Because we have a lot of peoplewho like to pretend it's not
(06:13):
possible.
But in every school it'spossible.
And instead of thinking, how doI innovate?
I think it's so much simpler tothink, how do I replicate?
And even though we think abouthow times have changed, you
know, it's isn't it reallyweird?
If you think back to the bestteacher you've ever had, they'd
be really good now, too.
(06:33):
And you think back to the worstteacher you've ever had, I'm
talking about you as a K-12student or at the college level,
the worst people, they'd also bereally bad now.
And ineffective people alwayswant to go backwards, average
people always want to stay wherethey're at, and effective people
always want to move forward.
Because ineffective peoplealways like to blame something
(06:53):
outside of their control forthem being ineffective.
And they actually hope it'sthings out of their control that
make them ineffective, andhighly effective people always
want it to be things withintheir control that allow them to
be effective.
So one finds prop solutions andone finds problems.
And it's just which one of thosetwo things do you want to be in
in education?
We have to always be on the sideof right, and so many of the
(07:16):
people are.
It's it's just amazing.
SPEAKER_02 (07:18):
You said so many things there that I want to
respond to, but what was comingto mind is how do we get people
in the profession and outside ofthe profession even to
understand that it really isabout cultivating the next
generations in a positive way.
(07:39):
And because it it is aboutmindset.
And so, how do you what are somethings that you share with
leaders about shifting a mindsetwhere people are kind of stuck
in what education is or whatthey think it is?
SPEAKER_00 (07:53):
What's funny is I don't think we have to convert
people.
I thought I think sometimes welose sight of that.
I think it's we have to keepthem in that mindset.
I don't believe people got intoeducation not believing that
mindset.
SPEAKER_02 (08:05):
Sure.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (08:06):
And so what happens is, you know, when you hire a
new teacher, you have one goal,and that's for your school to
become more like your newteacher, not for your new
teacher to become like theschool.
And if that's not your goal,you're hiring the wrong people.
We hire people who do believe.
And so it's just realizing ourfirst step is to keep those
people that believe believing.
(08:27):
Our first step isn't to get thepeople that aren't believing to
start believing.
That's our second step, if thatmakes any sense.
Because you have some whoalready believe.
My fear is that all of a sudden,my fear is always the new people
become like then the morenegative people in a school.
That's more concerning to me.
But I think it's just one personat a time, one school at a time,
(08:49):
one principal at a time, oneleader at a time.
It isn't education, it's thisschool.
And we've seen it instantly,where in a highly effective
principal goes into a school andthe school is literally
different almost overnight.
And so that just shows it'spossible and it's possible
everywhere.
So I think when you have adysfunctional leader, what
(09:13):
happens is nobody knows whyeverything's dysfunctional.
And they think they don't knowwhat the think about this.
If you have a highly ineffectiveteacher, every student is
misbehaving.
Every student's misbehaving.
And we can't figure out whichkids are the ones that are
chronic misbehaviors oranything.
(09:34):
If a great teacher walks in,instantly almost every kid
starts behaving.
But if there are one or twostill behaving, misbehaving, now
you know it is these two kids.
So in an environment, if youdon't have an effective leader,
everybody's misbehaving, meaningjust not at their best, not
doing the best things.
I don't mean they're allstealing paperclips, you know, I
(09:55):
mean, but potentially they'renot doing their very best.
And when a functional leadercomes in, all of a sudden we
find out oh, that's only thesetwo people.
It was never the group, it wasnever education, it was never
teachers.
And so I think it's I we havetwo ways to improve schools, in
my opinion (10:13):
hire better people and improve the ones we have.
And you have to have exceptionalleaders because average leaders
don't want to hire exceptionalpeople because they know they
know.
And so it starts off with havingexceptional leadership.
And and the other thing we'vegotten confused about, in my
opinion, is we talk aboutrelationships, relationships,
(10:33):
relationships.
We're a school, it's got to be alearning relationship.
You know, this isn't a dinnerparty.
unknown (10:39):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (10:40):
I say if you're gonna have a dinner party and
you want it to be fun, inviteme.
I'm not kidding.
For the first 90 minutes, it isthe funnest, except for the
grammar, it is the funnest thingyou've ever had.
But my act gets old after 90minutes.
But what happens is everylong-term relationship involves
learning.
And it can be learning bigpicture, how we care for each
(11:00):
other, how we treat each other,how we're respectful to our
colleagues and peers.
But it starts with the learningrelationship, not a how's your
puppy relationship.
And there's nothing wrong withasking how their puppy is, but
at some point it becomes a dog.
But if you're not, what's reallyinteresting is I I ask this of
(11:20):
of of uh parents, educators,everybody.
You get to choose your if youhave a kid, if you get to choose
their teacher next year, butonly on description, and you
have a choice of two twoteachers.
One that has engaging lessonsevery single day, other ones
that comes to your son'sbasketball game once a month.
Which one will you choose?
Everyone wants the teacherthat's engaging every day.
(11:45):
And if a teacher has engaginglessons every day, you don't
care if they come to your kids'basketball game.
They have a permanentlyconnected relationship.
But it's the learningrelationship, and we've gotten
confused and we think it's Ialways say leadership's not an
event, teaching's not an event.
It's a it's a drumbeat.
It's what we do.
(12:05):
I don't want to be a leaderthat's like the missing parent
who brings lots of presents atChristmas but doesn't have a
relationship the rest of theyear.
And I don't want to be theteacher that the one unit a year
I'm really good at, but it's thebest teacher sits 10 days out of
10, the best leader sits 10 daysout of 10, and that's a pretty
high percentage.
And I used to teach math.
(12:25):
And it's just helping peopleunderstand it's a constant
drumbeat on how we treat andinteract with people.
That's the relationship, in myopinion.
SPEAKER_03 (12:36):
Yeah, coming back to that idea of an exceptional
leader, I'm I'm wondering, youknow, we talk a lot, Tammy and
I, about all the noise that canthat can come with being in a
school environment and how yourattention gets pulled in a
million different directions allthe time.
So I I hope it's not coveringthe same thing that you've just
(12:58):
talked about there.
But how could how would yourecommend that school leaders
sort of filter through thatnoise and that busyness to work
on being that exceptional leaderthat that has the right kind of
learning relationship and notget too distracted with
everything else?
SPEAKER_00 (13:15):
Yeah, and I think it's I think it's teaching the
teachers to have the learningrelationship too, obviously.
I always the best way for aprincipal to take care of the
students is to take care of theteachers.
And then the teachers take careof the students, and it's it's
not getting confused that way.
Well, the first thing is, andthis is really kind of funny, if
there's an average principalalmost always, it's because an
(13:35):
average superintendent hired anaverage teacher who became an
average principal.
Because a great teacher wouldnever become, will never become
an average principal.
It's not in their DNA.
unknown (13:44):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (13:45):
And if the great teacher left and managed a
McDonald's, almost immediately,literally immediately, that
McDonald's would be better.
Because the way the teacherwould treat people would be kind
to people, act professional,look professional, dress
professional, interact in aprofessional way.
Other people would see it, butthey'd also teach people how to
(14:05):
greet the customers, and theyget to see it.
Literally, the first customerwalks in the door, that person's
been there one minute, andthey're gonna see somebody treat
that person in a more respectfulway than they've ever had.
But one of the traits the greatteacher has is an incredible
ability to ignore.
And ignore does not mean that Imistreat.
Ignore means I'm choosing whatto respond to and not to respond
(14:28):
to, just like the great parent.
Well, that great teacher who hasan ability to ignore becomes a
principal.
Guess what?
They have an incredible abilityto do: ignore the things that
aren't significant in theirschool.
And if as a leader, if youremember the two ways to improve
your school or hire betterteachers and improve the ones
you have, anything that doesn'tlead to one of those two things,
I try to put minimal time andenergy and effort and resources
(14:51):
into it.
Because I want to get back tothe things that really make a
difference.
I'm gonna be in classroomsbecause that's what matters in
the school.
And what's interesting is if youhave a teacher that sits behind
their desk, it isn't becausethey're lazy, it's because
they're scared of the kids.
And the desk is comfort forthem.
(15:11):
If you have a principal thatdoesn't go in classrooms, it's
not because they're lazy, it'sbecause they're scared of
teachers.
They don't know what to do if Iwalk in and a kid's misbehaving,
and they really would don't knowwhat to do if the teacher's
misbehaving.
But if you have a teacher, justthink about this.
If you have a teacher whoseinstinct is to be in the school
and be around the school and bewith kids every day and walk
(15:32):
around their classroom andinteract with every kid, well,
of course that's what they'rewanting to do if they're a
principal.
But if you hire an averageteacher, that's not what they
did as a teacher.
So there's no way they're gonnado that as a principal, if that
makes sense.
The biggest disadvantage aprincipal has is if they've
never worked with a greatprincipal, because then you have
to figure it out on your own.
(15:52):
And I always say we'resurrounded by so much average we
start to think average is right.
Great principles withoutexception, almost all my books
are based on research.
I just take the research outbecause I think nobody will read
them.
A great principal every singlegreat principal has faculty
meetings teachers look forwardto in value.
(16:15):
No average principal has facultymeetings teachers look forward
to in value.
Well, just think if I workedwith an average or below average
principal, the faculty meetingswere a joke.
And if I became a principal, I'dthink faculty meetings are
supposed to be a joke.
Or I'd at least think it'sacceptable for them to be a
joke, if that makes sense.
If I work with a great principalthat's faculty meetings were
(16:36):
valued, do you see how I haveone way of starting my faculty
meetings when I become aprincipal that's going to work?
And that doesn't mean I don'tbring in my own personality, I
don't have my own tweaks, Idon't have to copy that person,
but I see some of the thingsthey do by involving and
teaching.
You know, the minimum goal ofevery faculty meeting is for
teachers to be more excitedabout teaching tomorrow than
(16:58):
they were today.
Why do we suck the life out ofpeople?
And but what makes it morevaluable isn't a YouTube clip.
And some of them are funny withcats and stuff, and it isn't
cupcakes, and I like to snortfrosting.
What makes your faculty meetingsvalued is when people can leave
and immediately have in theirown classroom to be more
(17:18):
successful.
But instead, what happens is wethink a funny YouTube clip does
that.
And there's not funny YouTubeclips.
But what happens is guess whenthe office guess what their goal
is for every meeting they havewith principals, is for the
principals to be more excitedabout principal in tomorrow than
they were today.
Why do we suck the life out ofthem?
(17:39):
And as a principal, we've allbeen in meetings at central
office where we want to take aletter opener and stick it in
our thigh to make sure we'restill alive.
You know, I mean, but if the ifthe superintendent's
exceptional, that's not what thef the meetings for principals
would be like.
And then those principals getmodels that they can take back
to their own school.
But if you're surrounded byaverage, it's really hard to
crack that by yourself.
SPEAKER_02 (18:01):
Yeah.
Yeah.
There's again so many thingsthere that I want.
I'm I'm trying to like pick outthe one thing that's sticking
with me the most, but there's somany.
I'm thinking about you know,usually meetings are the bane of
the people's existence atschools.
(18:21):
And sometimes school leaders tryto like pad it with like, well,
we have like treats and snacksand coffee for you.
And so sometimes these somewhat,you know, nice little comforts
for teachers are okay for awhile, but it doesn't really
help build the culture and helpbuild effective teaching.
(18:41):
So what are some what are sometips you would have for school
leaders to like make thatmeeting more engaging?
Or we don't like to use the termbuy-in because we know that's
kind of like a false pretense.
We want people to be feelinvested.
And like you said, the peoplethat are in it are gonna be in
(19:02):
it, and the people that are kindof you know borderline might not
be.
But what are some things thatyou have done in your experience
or you talk about with schoolleaders that you know just get
people to be excited aboutcoming back and teaching again
or leaving the school againtomorrow in a in a bigger way?
SPEAKER_00 (19:20):
Okay.
We can talk about meetings, wecan talk about day-to-day.
I have a question for you.
Tammy, if Tammy and Christine,if you all have company, do you
ever vacuum?
SPEAKER_03 (19:30):
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00 (19:32):
Okay.
And if your vacuum's broken, doyou still go ahead and rub it
over the rug just to get thelines in so that the people come
over think it was vacuumed?
SPEAKER_03 (19:40):
No, I've never done that.
I've never done that, I have tosay.
SPEAKER_00 (19:44):
But if it was broken, don't tell me you
wouldn't, Christine.
Now you're thinking it's apretty good idea.
You know, so anyhow, now youdon't have to get the extension
cord.
You know, you can just run it.
But what's interesting is one ofthe best ways to make anyone
feel better is to complimentthem.
We get so few compliments.
(20:05):
You have to make teachers feelimportant because they are
important.
Day one, you just go start goingin classrooms.
And I call it look for the goodparts.
Sometimes you have to squint.
And and believe me, if I justcome in your room, you try
harder, you get out from behindyour desk, you interact with
kids more, I write you a note.
It was funny.
I was just working withprincipals where I talked about
(20:26):
do any of you have teachers thatsit behind their desk too much?
Every principal, almost everyprincipal, raised their hand.
I said, okay, let's pretendthere's 180 days in the school
year, day one through day 180.
What day of the year would youguess the teacher that sits
behind their desk is the leastlikely to be sitting behind
their desk?
So do either of you have aguess?
What day, day day one through180, what day are they least
(20:49):
likely to be sitting behindtheir desk?
SPEAKER_02 (20:53):
I'm gonna say like day 40.
SPEAKER_00 (20:56):
Okay, tell me how you came with 40, and I'm not
even gonna ask you to explain.
It's day one.
Okay, because they haven't givenup yet, they haven't gotten
cynical yet, they haven't gottennaked, they have some energy in
day one.
And I have to admit, I wouldn'thave guessed that.
But anyway, would you agreethere's a chance day one is a
better chance than any other dayexcept day 40?
SPEAKER_02 (21:18):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (21:18):
Okay, got it.
So day one.
With that in mind, if it's ahigh school teacher and they
have a seven period day, guesswhat period the first day the
teacher is least likely to besitting behind their desk?
SPEAKER_02 (21:34):
Probably first period.
SPEAKER_00 (21:36):
Excellent.
Guess what hour and day I'mgonna be in that teacher's
classroom?
SPEAKER_02 (21:41):
You're gonna be there right away, first thing.
SPEAKER_00 (21:43):
And you know what I'm gonna do?
I'm gonna catch them doingsomething right, and I'm gonna
write them a note.
And I'm gonna let's pretend it'syou, Tammy.
I'm gonna write a note.
And it may be two days later youget the note.
It doesn't make any difference.
It's not it's not a speed race.
I'm gonna go, Tammy.
I noticed the other day when Iwas in your classroom, I was
amazed as you were walkingaround how it engaged kids that
typically weren't ever engaged.
I remember you walked by Owenand all of a sudden he was
(22:05):
attentive.
And I remember him not beingnear as attentive last year.
And I never even thought abouthow just your presence and just
the using proximity and walkingaround causes a higher level of
engagement by the actions of ateacher.
I, as you know, I do a series ofworkshops with our new teachers.
Tammy, would it be okay if Iused your yours as an example
(22:26):
with the new teachers so theycould get a sense of just how
being up and around and activeas a teacher can lay raise a
higher level of engagement bythe students?
Is that okay if I share thatwith them, Tammy?
SPEAKER_02 (22:37):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_00 (22:38):
You'd like it, wouldn't you?
SPEAKER_02 (22:40):
Yeah.
unknown (22:40):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (22:41):
Tammy, and nobody's ever done that before, you have
they?
SPEAKER_02 (22:44):
No.
SPEAKER_00 (22:45):
Especially if you're not effective.
I mean, I'm not trying to bemean, especially.
So, Tammy, then if day three Iwalk in, what do you think that
teacher's more likely to bedoing than they ever were doing
on day three in the first 22years in their career?
SPEAKER_02 (22:58):
They're probably standing up and moving around.
SPEAKER_00 (23:00):
And Tammy, just so you can feel smart on your
answer, guess what on day 40they're more likely to be doing
than but Tammy, if on day 40they're not, but I walk in, what
are they more likely to do thanthey would have done on a
typical day 40?
SPEAKER_02 (23:15):
Yeah, they'll probably get up.
SPEAKER_00 (23:19):
You don't, kids don't kids don't become kind
because we tell them to be kind.
Kids become kind because wetreat them with kindness.
And if that if a stud if ateacher student taught with an
average teacher, they're likelyto think average is right.
(23:41):
No undergraduate program in theworld has a class on griping in
the teacher's lounge.
But if as a principal, I don'thelp my new teachers understand
this isn't what we do, thenthey're gonna think it's right
because the person I let themmentor them, because I was an
average principal, I gave theman average mentor.
(24:01):
This is what they do, so thenthey think this is what they're
supposed to do.
So at faculty meetings, I'lleven talk about that.
Just think about at a facultymeeting, Tammy.
Let's pretend it was your classI did that in.
And then at a faculty meeting, Isay, You all amaze me.
I don't know how you do this.
Recently I was in one of ouroutstanding teachers'
classrooms, and I was in there,and she was just up walking
(24:22):
around, and I noticed when shewalked by kids how much more
attentive they were.
I learned so much from you all.
And I'm gonna try to keep an eyeon that so I can continue to
learn as I come in classrooms ona regular basis with her.
Do you see, Tammy, how I taughteveryone that same concept that
I taught that that I reinforcedher for?
unknown (24:41):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (24:41):
I believe in teachers greeting kids, but
greeting kids can mean a varietyof different things.
For some teachers, greeting kidsmeans looking and smiling and
making eye contact with everykid.
It's that's great, to me, that'sthe same.
Well, what's interesting is Italk about it at the first
faculty meeting of the year.
Then we were 98% of us are doingit in the at the very beginning,
(25:03):
but gradually we get a littleworn off, and somewhere around,
say, I don't know, day 40,anyhow, there's less people
doing that.
And then what happens is I writein my Friday focus.
I don't know where you get theenergy to do this, but it's an
incredible impact on our school.
And I'm gonna let you in on asecret.
(25:23):
You all are the reason the kidslike coming here to school so
much.
And I'm gonna let you in onanother secret.
You all are the reason.
I like coming here to school somuch.
Thanks for what you do.
(25:43):
Could could that be somethingpeople like at the faculty
meeting, Tammy?
SPEAKER_02 (25:48):
Absolutely.
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (25:50):
And which teachers think I was talking about them?
SPEAKER_02 (25:53):
All of them.
SPEAKER_00 (25:54):
Nope.
The ones that are greeting kids.
SPEAKER_02 (25:56):
Well, yes, but uh, and so I would I'm my my my
thinking is that all of themhave been doing the greeting, so
you're speaking to all of them.
SPEAKER_00 (26:04):
But yeah, everyone who's greeting kids.
And what's interesting is Tammy,do you get to see what I value
as a principal?
SPEAKER_02 (26:10):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (26:11):
Do you get to see how you get to feel special by
just doing the right thing?
SPEAKER_02 (26:15):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_00 (26:17):
And I'm not excluding an and and Tammy, my
first book was dealing withdifficult teachers.
So understand if I have somebodywho is negative and harmful, I
will deal with them, but I'llnever deal with them at the good
people's expense.
unknown (26:29):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (26:29):
I always say you always treat a difficult teacher
as if the whole faculty was inthe room watching.
Because the the rest of thefaculty want you to deal with
them.
They just want you to deal withthem in a professional,
respectful manner, which isexactly what the great teachers
do.
The great teachers, what happensis kids want the great teachers
dealing with the kids who arebeing too too high a level of
disruption.
(26:50):
They just want them to deal witha respectful and professional
manner.
And it's the same thing.
So all of these things can bedone at faculty meetings,
because at faculty meetings, Ijust share with the group or
recall with the group somethingthat I saw recently, something
that I heard recently, somethingelse someone else mentioned.
And I have something called theFriday Focus.
If you've read motivatinginspiring teachers, single best
(27:11):
leadership tool I've ever used.
It's my staff memo.
And I know all take a look atthat and then have that memo
quickly.
Because I make you feelimportant, I make you feel
special, I teach you what'ssignificant, I reinforce what's
significant, I treat you in away I want you to treat other
(27:32):
people, but I talk to you abouthow to I talk about what we do
at assemblies that's for theteachers.
How what do ineffective peopledo?
And the teachers say, standagainst the wall, sit in the
back.
And you know what I say?
I go, the people that were doingthat didn't know they were doing
it wrong.
Because the first thing we haveto sort out are people ignorant
or insubordinate.
And we almost always thinkthey're insubordinate, they're
(27:52):
almost always ignorant, unaware.
But what happens is you didn'tknow that your colleagues knew
you're not sitting with thekids, and now they have to watch
your class too.
But I teach them that before theassembly because I don't want to
catch you doing wrong.
I want you to teach you to do itright.
And so it's just understand,people want to be good.
I promise they want to be good.
(28:14):
You just have to teach them howto be good, reinforce them from
being good, and thenindividually work with people
who are choosing for whateverreason, either lack of knowledge
or lack of effort to do theright thing.
And it I it it every book I'veever written, I almost wanted to
call it simple, it's just noteasy.
(28:35):
Because if it's reallycomplicated, I couldn't do it.
I'm not smart enough.
But if it's simple, I can do itand I can teach everybody else
how to do it too.
So it's that things at facultymeetings, it's it's particular
tips.
Sometimes I have teachers sharewhat it is.
We got to the point whereteachers were video were
recording their own classrooms,and then someone would bring it
(28:56):
to me and ask questions andthis.
Some of those clips we'd show atfaculty meetings with the
permission of the teacher,obviously, and and what it was.
I uh and just I would talk aboutthings I've heard from parents
during this week.
Things I ask kids what they likebest about school, and and one
of the kids goes, the way theteachers treat us.
And you walk you're proud to bea part of that school, aren't
(29:19):
you?
SPEAKER_02 (29:20):
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00 (29:21):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And you want to be a good guy.
Because you see the value ofbeing the good guys.
And it's just it's just helpingpeople.
They just want to be good.
And there's there is negativity,but it isn't because of outside
things.
It comes it's the negative thatconcerns me, is the ones that
comes in that's internal.
(29:43):
That's what concerns me.
And I teach people this abouthow they how they can enjoy the
kids and and and also the otherthing that you get that helps
teach your morale is supportingthe teachers.
You know, I'm I'm in a principalpreparation program and people
People go, well, Todd I gothired, but they wanted an
(30:04):
internal person and I'mexternal.
They wanted an external person,but I'm internal.
They wanted a man, I'm a woman,they wanted a woman, I'm a man.
They wanted someone younger,they wanted someone older,
whatever.
I go, all that matters till thefirst kid's sent to the office.
And if a teacher sees you assupportive, they don't care what
your background is.
And if they don't see you assupportive, they don't care what
your background is.
(30:25):
And it's just helping people.
The leaders want to be good too.
Leading's hard.
It is hard.
We have a lot of Monday morningquarterbacks, but leading's
hard.
I say people always look toleaders, but during times of
crisis, they stare.
Because they're glad it's notthem.
But afterwards, it's great tosay, well, I would have, yeah,
(30:49):
sure you would have.
It's like when people go, I knewthe outcome of the Super Bowl
before it even started.
I go, you must have killed inVegas then.
Turns out they never did bet.
You know, but they they talkedabout what they would have won.
You know, so but I think it'sjust teaching people, people
want to be good, in my opinion.
Everybody wants to be good.
You got into education becauseyou want to make a difference.
And it's just teaching you howto make more of a difference by
(31:11):
being effective.
Kids are going to remember youone way or the other.
How do you want them to rememberyou?
So I don't know if that makessense.
Christine, I don't know if thatmakes any sense.
SPEAKER_03 (31:23):
It does.
It does.
I feel like we're soaking up allof your wisdom here, Todd,
especially that reminder.
SPEAKER_00 (31:29):
Well, I'm about out.
Every day all I am is older anddumber.
So keep that in mind.
SPEAKER_03 (31:36):
I don't believe that.
I don't believe that.
But no, I I especially like thatreminder of like everyone is
trying to do good.
I think that's a really goodreminder when it when times get
tough, is you know, everyone isin it for the right reason.
They're trying to do the rightthing.
SPEAKER_00 (31:51):
If you ever question that, just think of classroom
management.
Classroom management is theeasiest thing to help people
improve in because classroommanagement's selfish.
If any of us could get the kidsto behave better, we'd get the
kids to behave better.
But it isn't telling them to getthe kids to behave better
because you're already gettingthem to behave as well as you
know how.
It's teaching them how.
I always think it's funny, youknow.
(32:12):
I always ask educators, you everbeen told to raise your test
scores?
And everybody laughs.
And I go, I go, how many ofy'all been holding back on that?
You know, but what happens ispeople tell you to raise your
test scores, they don't teachyou because they don't know how.
People tell you to manage yourclassroom instead of teaching
you because they don't know how.
And you just know your leaderdoesn't know how.
And there's nothing wrong withthe leader not knowing how, they
(32:33):
just can't be afraid to askpeople who do know how.
unknown (32:36):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (32:37):
Yeah.
I think that goes to your pointabout, you know, if if teachers
don't know the expectation,right?
So they have to sit with theirkids during the assembly.
If you don't let them know, howdo they know?
And so that's a lot of whatclassroom management is, right?
Like you have to teach theexpectations.
SPEAKER_00 (32:59):
It's significant specificity.
It isn't just no, because forexample, I talk about
superstars, backbones, andmediocres.
If you've read my book, WhatGreat Teachers Do Differently, I
talk about it.
This isn't some mystery secretfor leadership.
This is for everyone.
I want everybody to know.
This is how this is what greatpeople are.
This is what comprises them.
And you can be that.
I don't I don't talk aboutthings you can't do because then
(33:20):
that's discouraging.
However, Tammy, superstars andbackbones both sit by the
challenging kids at theassembly.
But they do it differently.
Average people, do you know howthey sit by the kid?
Revenge mode.
Christine, you're gonna sit byme at this assembly, you're
gonna sit by me at everyassembly of the rest of your
revenge mode.
You know how great people do it?
They pretend it's random.
(33:40):
Everything in great people do,they pretend it's random.
You know the teacher that sitsbehind their desk too much that
first day of school, that firsthour?
I pretend I'm this is just arandom class, I'm walking in.
But there's nothing random ingreat people's actions.
So the great teacher, then whatdo they do?
They walk the kids to theassembly, and you know who they
turn and walk in,coincidentally?
(34:01):
Right when Christine walks in.
Christine, we could just sit byeach other again.
This is the third assembly in arow.
I remember the last one, thebirds of prey, ever since then,
every night I dreamed, theyswooped down and just took you
away.
We get to sit by each otheragain.
But you see how it all seemsrandom, and it's preventing the
other one wants revenge.
(34:22):
But it's teaching my teachersthis.
I'm gonna use the word secretarybecause I'm a hillbelly.
If there's a new principal to aschool, I also work with
business, it's the same thing,every everything's the same.
We just think it's different,we're just wrong.
It's all the same.
Principal to a school.
I could have been a principalelsewhere, but new to this
(34:43):
school.
Did you know the secretary wantsto know how I want them to
answer the phone until theyanswer the phone?
Well, because once they answerthe phone, I'm correcting their
behavior.
SPEAKER_02 (34:55):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (34:55):
And do you know the better they are, the more they
want to know?
It's the opposite of what youthink.
You think the really good peopledon't want to know.
No, they want to know.
Because if that secretary'sreally, really good, he or she,
guess who they want to please?
The boss.
unknown (35:09):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (35:09):
And you know what they want?
They want the new principal toknow they're the best secretary
they've ever worked with.
They've never worked with anyoneas good.
Chance to show you how good Iam.
Give me a task, anyresponsibility.
But if I wait and let you answerthe phone for a week and then I
come and talk to you about howto answer the phone, now I've
corrected your behavior and I'vehurt a relationship.
unknown (35:27):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (35:28):
If you play card games and board games, you want
to know the rules, but you wantto know the rules before the
game starts, unless you're goingto cheat.
unknown (35:34):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (35:35):
And I assume everybody's good.
So I assume everybody wants toknow the guidelines before the
game before the game starts.
And I'm not pretendingteaching's a game, but just
life.
Everybody wants to know.
I don't want to catch you doingwrong.
I want to teach you.
And what's interesting is once Iteach you to do something and
you don't do it, now I know ifyou're ignorant or
insubordinate.
Once I talk about assemblies andnow you continue to stand
against the wall.
(35:58):
Now I know.
And it's very different.
And I'm much more comfortabletalking to you then.
But I even talk to you inprevention mode.
I don't talk to you the dayafter the assembly.
I talk to you the day before thenext assembly.
I don't need you to feel bad.
I need you to do the rightthing.
unknown (36:13):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (36:14):
I have no interest in you feel bad.
I have no interest in youapologizing.
I mean, it's fine if you do.
I'm not saying that's anegative, it's a positive,
obviously.
I just need you to do the rightthing.
I ask all teachers to reflectback when they were in K-12
themselves as students.
And I'll ask both of you alltoo, uh, Christine and Tammy.
When you were a K-12 student,could you name the teachers in
(36:37):
the school that were yellers?
SPEAKER_02 (36:40):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (36:41):
Could every kid in the school name the teachers
that were yellers?
SPEAKER_02 (36:45):
Yes.
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (36:46):
Now that you're teachers, how many of you think
the kids in your schools canname the teachers that are
yellers?
And how many of you realize theteachers can name the teachers
that are yellers?
And how many of you got intoeducation to be known as the
yeller?
SPEAKER_02 (37:05):
I would hope no one.
SPEAKER_00 (37:07):
And my only suggestion is stop.
Just stop.
I'm a proponent of mentalhealth, I don't have a solution
for you.
Just stop.
Nobody wants to be known as theyellers, and you didn't know
your colleagues know, but theyknow.
And they don't like it.
Because they don't want the kidstreated in that way.
(37:28):
When they realize the kids thatmost need our support get
treated in that way all thetime.
And all we can do is stop.
And do you know why peoplechange their behavior?
Because they didn't know theircolleagues knew.
You want to know the definitionof school culture?
That's adult peer pressure.
(37:50):
And it's just teaching people.
You just teach people.
They want to be good.
But I teach this before at thefirst faculty meeting of the
year.
Because Tammy, I don't want youyelling.
Because there's a chance youdidn't know it was wrong.
You student taught with someone,the teacher next to you yells.
I'm not being critical at all.
But once I teach you this, ifnow you continue to do it, it's
(38:11):
a completely different story.
But if I don't teach you this,there's a chance you you thought
it was the right thing to do.
You grew up in that household.
You know, you grew up in thisdynamic, you're in this
relationship.
Whatever it is, it doesn't makeany difference because that's
got to be left, that can't bebrought into the classroom, in
my opinion.
SPEAKER_02 (38:27):
Right.
Yeah, agree.
You know, Todd, we could talk toyou for hours, clearly.
SPEAKER_00 (38:32):
It probably feels like you already have to you.
SPEAKER_02 (38:35):
No, this it's the time has been flying.
But we do need to wrap up thisepisode.
And at the end of each of ourepisodes, we always ask our
guests for a pair-down pointer.
And you've given lots of those,I think, already.
But if you were just going tosay one thing to school leaders,
what is that one thing that youwould say?
SPEAKER_00 (38:56):
I'm not a big fan of one thing, but here is the one
thing (38:58):
make every decision based on your best people, and you'll
never make a wrong decision.
unknown (39:03):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (39:04):
Because your best people want everyone to be
successful.
And you know who else they wantto be successful?
They want you to be successful.
unknown (39:12):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (39:13):
They're on your side.
They're on your side.
They're just scary becausethey're good.
They're just scary becausethey're right.
And they're just scary becausethey know you know.
But your superstars are the onlypeople in the school that always
want the leader to be successfulbecause they know we can't be as
successful if the leader isn'tsuccessful.
(39:33):
So they want the leader to besuccessful.
And you may have some otherpeople that would like it if
they could make the leader cry.
I mean, I'm just letting youthough that.
But the best people always wanteveryone to be successful.
unknown (39:44):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (39:45):
Everyone.
They they see the world as anunlimited sum game.
So make every decision based onyour best people, and you will
literally never make the wrongdecision.
But they can't be perceived asthe leader's pet.
Because if they become, if theyperceived as they can be the
leader's pet.
But if they can't be perceivedas the leader's pet because they
lose credibility to influenceothers then.
And your best people don't wantto be the leader's pet.
(40:05):
Yeah, people don't want to bethe principal's pet, but it's
never the best people.
SPEAKER_02 (40:09):
Yeah.
Thank you so much, Todd.
There's so much knowledge andwisdom in that conversation.
And I know that our listenersare going to soak it up.
So thank you so much for beingwith us today.
SPEAKER_00 (40:21):
And I want to thank the leader listeners for what
they do.
And Todd Whitaker's nobody.
But if I can ever help you, callor email me anytime you want.
My website's toddwitaker.com.
Sadly, I don't have any people.
But sometimes leadership islonely.
And I don't want you, I don'tmind you being alone, but I
don't want you to be lonely.
So if I can ever help you, callor email anytime.
(40:41):
Christine and Tammy can probablyhelp you more than I can, but
I'm a neutral outsider who willlook you in the eye and tell you
the truth.
And as long as you're on theside of the kids, I'm on the
side of you.
So thank you for your leadershipjourney.
Thanks for choosing a positionthat makes a difference every
single day.
That's a rare gift that you'rebringing to your school.
SPEAKER_03 (41:01):
This episode is sponsored by Plan Z Education
Services, supporting educatorswith forward-thinking
professional learning that putsboth student impact and teacher
wellness at the center.
Driven by a vision to teachless, impact more, they help
educators find purpose,prioritize what matters, and
simplify their practice.
Learn more atplanzeducation.com.
SPEAKER_01 (41:26):
Thank you for listening to the Minimalist
Educator Podcast.
Join Christine and Tammy andguests again next time for more
conversations about how tosimplify and clarify the
responsibilities and tasks inyour role.
If today's episode helped yourethink, reimagine, reduce, or
realign something in yourpractice, share it in a comment
(41:47):
or with a colleague.
For resources and updates, visitplanzeducation.com and subscribe
to receive weekly emails.
Until next time, keep it simpleand stay intentional.
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