September 2, 2024 • 44 mins
What would you do if you found yourself unexpectedly laid off from your corporate job, with a young family to support?
This episode of the Modern Independent offers an inspiring story as we sit down with Ben Goetz, who transformed a career setback into a flourishing independent consultancy. Ben takes us through his incredible journey from the shock of being laid off to the creation of his own sustainable business, Team Getz, specializing in e-commerce operations.
Hear how his resourcefulness and adaptability played crucial roles in overcoming initial challenges and why building trust with clients was fundamental to his success.
We discuss the often surprising simplicity of forming an LLC, the advantages it offers in managing taxes and operational efficiency, and tips for avoiding common pitfalls, such as the lure of third-party services. By sharing his own experiences, Ben provides practical advice that can help you navigate the journey smoothly, shedding light on why using official state resources can save you time and money.
Ben wraps up this episode by delving into the intricacies of his work, from strategic communications and the art of crafting effective email newsletters to the value of authenticity in client relations.
He also reflects on his transformative experience with IndeCollective, a program that helped him take risks and embrace discomfort for growth. Tune in for a wealth of insights that could prove invaluable for anyone considering or currently navigating the path of independent work.
Follow Us for More Content on:
IG: IndeCollective | Freelance MBA (@indecollective) • Instagram photos and videos
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/indecollec
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome everybody to another episode of the Modern
Independent.
As you heard in the pre-reel,we are a podcast dedicated to
empowering independentconsultants, coaches, web
developers, designers andeverybody pretty much across all
spectrums of the job field.
As long as you are passionateabout being an independent
worker, we're here for you.
In today's episode, I'm goingto be hanging out with Indie
(00:24):
Collective alumni Ben Goetz.
We're going to be diving into alittle bit of his background,
some of his career path, whathe's getting into now and his
experience with the IndieCollective curriculum.
So, ben, thanks for coming onthe show.
Hey, thanks for having me.
You are super, super welcomeman.
So I think lately I've beenstarting these episodes off with
(00:48):
just kind of a dive back right.
I like to rewind before we getto where you're at currently and
what you're doing.
So almost everybody has sometype of origin story when it
comes to going independent,right, For some people it didn't
feel like a choice, for otherpeople it was very intentional
(01:11):
and then for people like me, youkind of fall into it and then
next thing you know you're like,oh wow, I'm doing
entrepreneurial things.
Which one of those categoriesdo you fall into?
Or maybe there's a checkbox forother category.
That was Ben's experience.
But how did you enter the ideaof going independent?
Speaker 2 (01:49):
it for a few years.
I spent the bulk of my careerin the really more like the
corporate marketing setting.
So I worked for a lot of largebrands that you would know, a
lot of tech-based companies,large brands, you know, with
worldwide footprints, nationalfootprints, and so I think I
just kind of had the idea that Iwas subscribed to being, you
know, like a cog in a largermarketing team for a larger
(02:13):
corporation.
And then, as life would have it, I am working for a large
company in the Atlanta area andmy wife is at home with our two
very young children at the timeand I got to experience what it
was like to be let go from amassive, massive team, which you
(02:36):
know just, I mean it happens,you know, I mean it's just a,
it's a formulation ofrestructuring or, um, you know
flattening ladders of teams andyou know, and so on and so forth
.
So I got to experience thatfirsthand and then the hardship
of that was it's just reallypractical things you know of
being, you know, still prettyyoung in my career.
(02:59):
You know we're pretty youngparents and the only things that
really matter is they're like Ijust have to take care of my
family, I have to provide thingslike health insurance and we
have to be able to, you know,live and pay our rent and buy
groceries, and you know and, and, and you know basics.
And so I, you know, I, verydesperately in this time where I
(03:22):
had, I was very, I was veryfortunate and they were very
generous to give me a nice longoff ramp of severance, which was
super helpful.
And you know, and I was reallynot maybe not desperately, but
probably desperately trying tofind my way back into some
corporate outfit where I was aW-2 employee with role,
(03:46):
responsibility, just things thatI understood, you know, things
that were more like a part ofbeing a larger marketing team
where I wasn't necessarily aspecialist but, you know, I had
some semblance of a definitionof a role.
So that's really what I wassearching for and found my way
down a slew of interviews anddifferent opportunities all over
(04:10):
the place and ended up gettingoffered a job, albeit in a
different city, and then, forwhatever reason, it didn't sit
well with having to move ourfamily to a completely different
state.
And then, you know, in thatthere was a turn where I was,
you know, through thatconnection it just kind of
(04:32):
lofted the idea of you know, hey, would you be interested in
doing some contract work whileyou're looking for something
more full-time?
And it wasn't really somethingthat I had really considered, so
I just decided to say yes.
That conversation turned intotrial-level work and then that
trial level work very quicklyturned into work that I was able
(04:57):
to retain and continue doing ona consistent basis, and then
that turned into the first youknow contract that I was able to
retain, and then that turnedinto two, and then two turned
into four.
And that's why I say like Idon't know that it was really a
choice.
I think it kind of it reallypresented itself to me and then
(05:20):
I don't really think I realizedthat I was in the middle of like
, hey, I actually have probablya pretty viable business here
that I can run by myself that'sbased off of skills that I've
acquired and especially, youknow that again, like not really
being a specialist, but justthings that I knew that I had
developed and and just beingresourceful and just and knowing
(05:42):
how to and knowing how to buildtrust, to know that I was
capable of or I guess the betterway of answering is like I knew
that I was capable of being theperson that someone would hire
to find the answer or find thesolution, knowing full well that
(06:02):
I might not have that answer orsolution outright, but knowing
that I was the person that theycould trust to do so.
So, I mean, I think being ascrappy, young dad, millennial,
ready to take on the challenge,is really where I found myself,
and you know, so it was.
Yeah, I mean, gosh, it's.
(06:24):
It's crazy to think that thatwas six years ago.
And, um, if, if anyone were tosay, hey, man, six years, in six
years, here's what you're goingto be doing, it would have felt
like Everest, you know.
But I mean again, like in, inthose moments, you know, the
only thing that you're thinkingof is like, the only thing that
(06:47):
you're thinking of is like Ihave to solve the problem of the
immediate, of right now.
The only thing I cared aboutwas my, my wife and my kids and,
just like you know, maintaining, you know, the, the life that
we had without having to, youknow, scramble, you know.
So how, how do I, how do I fillthat gap?
Basically, that's the onlything that I was really focused
on.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
And I, yeah, sorry, no, you're good, I mean to cut
you off, but something thatreally stands out to me as
you're talking about it, and I'dlove to point out stories or
themes that I've heard prettyconsistently over and over again
.
Right, because one of thethings about being the head of
community is that I get to hostthese things called office hours
, right, and so this 30 minutesessions, and now it's been
hundreds of of people that havecome through the program that
(07:31):
I've gotten to sit down and talkto you and like have those
conversations with.
And that's where those, theinitial, you know, question came
from.
Like, here are the three typesof categories that, like,
typically people find and itsounds like you, you kind of
fall into that, um, I fell intoit, or it presented itself to me
category, right, you're kind ofunaware of it.
And the next thing, you know,you're like wait, do I have a
business?
I have a business.
(07:51):
Yeah, you're like this ishappening.
Um, and I I love um.
Brad White is a is anothermember.
I think he was in your cohort,or maybe your second one.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
I love Brad White.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
But I was just talking to another member the
other day, or a prospectivemember for our spring cohort,
about Brad and how I could neveroperate like Brad.
But I really respect the wayBrad operates because he just
shoots from the hip directly andthen goes for it and then deals
with the consequences, iteratesand then just goes for it again
.
(08:24):
And I kind of distill that downand I know a lot of other people
like that and it seems likethere's this beautiful way of
moving through that processwhere you're not really ever
seeking specific opportunitiesbut you're keeping yourself
ready to seize the opportunitiesthat present themselves to you.
And it sounds like that's beenkind of a part of your journey
(08:49):
is like these opportunitiespresent themselves and then, as
you're continuing to go throughthe process, you're willing to
go out on a limb and seize thatopportunity as it comes in and
to your point it may seem likeMount Everest if you were to
think of where you are now andyou had that awareness back then
.
But if you're able to thinklike I just need to get to the
(09:12):
next plateau, I just need tofigure out how to fill the next
gap, I just need to figure outhow to the next gap, next thing
you know, you look back over sixyears and you're like, holy
crap, I summited Everest.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
Yeah.
So you know it's a really it'scomical to think of, and not
that I would tell anyone that Ihave a significant amount of
advice to impart or evenexperience that I would say is
transferable or can really eventranspose, you know.
(09:46):
But the one thing that I wouldsay is not, I mean, and again I
think my position was so solelybased on provision, where you
know, like it's simply, ifthere's an absence of this, I
have to make it into a presence,I have to fill that gap.
There can't be a gap Like,basically, that's the only
(10:08):
equation that matters is therecan't be negative space in this
space in our life.
So, um, so I think remainingopen, um, especially because and
this is this is just such aninteresting thing, because even,
um, even just recently, havinga few conversations with people
who work, you know, more so inlike the, like professional
(10:28):
development space, or even likeprofessional coaching space, is,
um, I think the thing that I'vereally found for me and again
it's it's really just wherewhere a lot of my experience has
led me is I I never even onceconsidered the, the idea of
specializing in one thing orhaving something that I could
(10:49):
say, like man, it's so easy forme to productize because it hits
a business at a very specifictime in wherever they are like,
in some sort of gestationalperiod or life cycle of where
they are with their currentbusiness model or product or
whatever.
I have done so many things thatare very difficult to quantify
(11:15):
in a way that they would fitinto the same category or fit
into the same level of need.
But again, everything kind ofties back to a lot of things
that I either had a lot ofexperience in or just enough
with a resourceful attitude andapproach, where it was pretty
easy to become this solutionsperson, you know, and just being
(11:38):
solutions minded of.
You know, I mean it was, it wasjust this place that I had to
really put myself and saying yesand knowing that I really
didn't, I mean I guess I didn'thave the opportunity to say no
to a certain extent, you know.
(12:00):
I mean you know what, what,what would it be that would be
the deterrent, you know, for meto say no, what, what would I?
What would I have to?
Where would I have to be inorder to turn down work?
You know, I was never in thatplace.
I was like man the more that Ican do, the more it's going to
create a foundation for me tostand on.
It's going to be either a shortor a long-term learning
(12:21):
experience for me.
Everything is great.
But yeah, it definitely turnedfrom that into I'm not kidding
man a couple of years had goneby and then I finally got to the
point and I was havingconversations with my accountant
or financial planner andthey're like hey, have you ever
considered incorporating andactually setting up an LLC,
(12:42):
basically making a business,rather than you just being like
a sole proprietor?
So that conversation became anarrative and that's what led me
finally to the path where it'slike man, I actually had this a
long time ago, but you know.
So, getting getting to thepoint where, yeah, they're like
are you sure you don't want toturn this into a S corp?
Yeah, and it's funny too, likeon that note, I mean I think
(13:04):
that's that's probably like oneof the biggest pieces of um.
You know if it's advice or justlike my experience, just from
turning, turning the path intoum, I mean there's multiple
levels of viability.
You know, for me it was neverabout legitimacy.
I was like I don't have to, Idon't want to feel like an
agency.
I'm not, I don't present myselfas an agency, like I'm one
(13:26):
person, um, I mean again like avery resourceful person that can
probably move really nimbly,but I never positioned myself as
like, oh, I'm this company.
It's like, hey, it's just me,like this is me, like this's a
few things that we can, you know, have as as as conversation
(13:47):
starters or thought starters,and so you know, I I think that
just having having that type ofexperience, it was, yeah, it was
, it was just really it wasreally surprising when I got to
the, to the point of ofrealizing that it's a lot more
simplified than I ever thoughtit could be.
(14:08):
And things are just I meanalmost everything just in terms
of turning down the path of like, hey, you're working as a sole
proprietor into forming an LLCand having a business, and more
like proper back office, maybeyou're filing as an S corp.
You know, just like simplethings that other people have
taught me really within the past, like two years, um, it is.
(14:32):
That is the one thing that Iwould say is like I just had
this.
I had this idea that it was soshrouded in mystery that it was
complicated, that it requiredthat it was complicated, that it
required.
You know, I don't know like atax professional, a shaman.
You know a.
You know like a lawyer.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
I was going to say the shaman that is also a lawyer
on the side.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
Yeah, I know.
And again, man, like it's justlike, it's just this weird like
fallacy that I just I just didnot have the capacity to really
engage.
And I mean, I think the bestpart of that story is, like, I
was just so wrong about it, like, and I don't know that it was
the same thing probably like 10years ago, but I mean the
(15:16):
process, I think, in a lot ofdifferent directions, is just on
rails, like it's just like, hey, uh, click this button to get
started.
A couple of days go by and then, yeah, like, all of your
paperwork for becoming an LLCcan be done, you know.
And then there's just peoplewho know things that you don't
have to understand or understandfully or find answers to,
(15:41):
because these people that youcan hire to do these things for
you are out there and I mean,again, man, they just dispel a
lot of like these, I think, justrumors that you might somehow
buy into, not even from anindividual, but just that you
kind of tell yourself.
So, yeah, I mean it was funnyhow I just kind of looked back
(16:04):
and I had this.
I had something really greatall along, and I think that's
probably the biggest thing thatI've learned is if, after like
my first year, year and a half,someone had just said, hey, just
do these things, like that'sthe one thing that I would
recommend to anyone is there'sjust no reason to hesitate.
(16:26):
It's such a great move just tohave solid tax professionals,
back office, bookkeepingsoftware oh my gosh and then
getting to the point where it'sjust a level of viability for
the way that you can run thingsas a business are so much more
(16:47):
efficient than just being a soleproprietor.
So that's the biggest thingthat I feel like I've learned
just from a structural businessstandpoint.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
Yeah, I tell people all the time and I just had this
conversation with a buddy ofmine the other day because he
was Googling around and he waslike, oh, it says that it's
going to cost me like $300through this company to file my
LLC and some of this other stuff.
And I said, go to this OhioSecretary of State, do a name
search.
If it doesn't show up, go totheir articles of organization
(17:19):
filing, pick the name, pay 99bucks.
You just have to put your nameand the date of the filing and
some other very basicinformation on it.
You can file for your EINnumber, your federal
identification number, for freeon irsgov and then you can start
to get bookkeeper or, if youhave partners, you can talk to a
(17:42):
lawyer about an operatingagreement or any of that other
kind of stuff.
But all the rest of it is sosimple and I'm with you.
I mean I didn't learn.
I mean I went to nursing schoolso we didn't learn anything
about incorporating or LLCs oranything like that period.
But it blows my mind how, howintense people perceive that
process to be, and I find that alot in Indie Collective too,
(18:03):
which I have.
One more question that I wantto ask you about your Indie
Collective experience.
But I find that in IndieCollective, too, that there's
parts of the curriculum whereand I think we have maybe even
had this conversation when youfirst came into the community,
but I'm like everybody by weekfive is having an existential
crisis.
That is the general state ofthe union.
You get through the firstcouple of weeks and you're like
(18:24):
oh, I'm designing my life.
This is going to be great.
There's so many thingshappening and then by week five
you're like I don't, I havenothing, I don't know what's
going on.
Like there's so many things.
But you get to that place andlike I think part of it is I
don't think it's intimidation oroverwhelm, because there and
(18:50):
it's actually not as bad as Ithought, but there's a lot of it
.
Speaker 2 (18:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:54):
To do so before we get into the like, I kind of
want to plant that scene, butbefore we get into the indie
collective experience, I'mcurious.
I mean we've talked about kindof your, your journey into it
and a little bit about what youdo, but but team gets is your
site.
You know that you launched, Ithink, either during or
immediately after one of thecohorts.
(19:14):
You were able to kind of getthat moving, um and so what is
in your mind, team gets and like, what are some of the services
that you are the most passionateabout?
You don't have to go throughyour entire services list, but
maybe some examples of you knowa project that you got the
chance to work on that youreally enjoyed, or some of the
parts that you get to do withcustomers that really bring joy
(19:36):
into your life.
Speaker 2 (19:37):
Yeah, yeah, it's really cool, you know.
I mean I've just I've had anopportunity to work as a
consultant, you know, reallymostly in the in the e-commerce
space, and I think initially Iwould have probably defined a
lot of what I did or do reallymore with a marketing veneer,
(19:59):
and really more lately I think alot of it really falls much
more into the side of operations, especially operations that
also are multi-departmental orthey touch multiple teams, I
guess is probably the best wayto put it.
And I mean I have a reallydistinct privilege of working
(20:21):
with some larger companies, somesmaller companies.
I mean again, just in scale,just like the number of people,
the number of people thatactually work for some of the
people that I get to do work for, you know, it can be a much
more like flat organization.
Or I can work with someone whois, you know, in a like director
(20:41):
level position of a team, youknow.
So I, I I did end up in, Iended up like incorporating
about two years ago and you know, but I finally got to the point
where I was like you know whatI just I have like so much great
experience.
I've just never really takenthe time to actually put that
(21:02):
down in a way that has somelevel of storytelling behind it
of you know, I mean, it's stilla funny question, like I was
actually just having aconversation a couple of days
ago where if someone were to say, what is it that you do, how
would you, in some concisesoundbite, communicate that?
(21:24):
And my first question was is, Idon't know, an acceptable
answer?
And of course it's not.
So I think being resourceful andalso being which I think a lot
of people would identify with iscoming from the position of
(21:46):
becoming a generalist is areally good thing and also a
really interesting thing to gothrough the process of trying to
distill.
So, um, you know, I I think thethings that I get to do I mean
again like kind of looking ateverything with the veneer of of
generalist mode um, the thingsthat I really enjoy are, um, you
(22:11):
know, things that that I can,things that I can help a team or
a brand or a company understandthat they might not have
someone in their organization orpart of their headcount.
They know that it's somethingthat they would find value in or
they have not actuallyestablished.
So something like emailmarketing would be a perfect
(22:32):
example of hey, we have all ofthis customer data and we've
never done anything with it.
But we'd love to createsomething like a regular, some
level of communique of an emailnewsletter or some sort of
update or just regular piece ofcommunication with mastheads and
(22:55):
like different sections of ourbusiness.
Like I love getting to thepoint where I get to help
develop what that actually lookslike, cause it's not like I'm
not the most I'm certainly not adesigner, I'm definitely not a
the type of person where I wouldlean on my creative prowess.
I would.
I would love much more tooffload that to someone else
(23:16):
who's much more skilled than Iam.
But creating the structure, theunderstanding of audiences, of
segmentation, of what level ofaudience health are you finding
at high, medium and low, andwhat do those levels of, or what
do those pieces ofcommunication start to look like
(23:37):
?
How can you start to diversifywhat it is that you feel like
you need to communicate and whatare the things that you would
say are actually of value topeople that you, whether or not
you want to look at it?
It's like hey, this is yourcommunity, like, these are your
people, like these are peoplewho care.
No-transcript.
(24:20):
So I really love getting to dostuff like that.
It's always really fun.
It's like a discovery phase,but also then the strategizing
and implementation and thenmanagement outside of that and
working with teams to actuallybring a lot of that to fruition
is always really fun.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
Yeah, I think, a theme that I want to point out
for people that you know, maybeyou're you're thinking to
yourself like I'm an emailmarketer, I'm, you know, have
worked inside of these samespaces and I'm you know, I'm
getting blocked on leadconversations or, you know,
people are getting to the pointwhere I'm giving out proposals
and they're ghosting me andthere's other things that happen
, you know, along the way.
One thing that I want to pointout that Ben is, you know, kind
(24:59):
of consistently revisiting ashe's talking through, is the
idea that you're not justpositioning a specific skill set
right and this is somethingthat I think Kat Coffrin's
session inside of the IndieCollective cohort does a great
job of doing but, you know,focusing on your personal brand,
(25:21):
and I think it's the four orthe five Ps I'm not going to try
to name them all because I willget that wrong but Kat Coffrin
C-A-T-C-O-F-F-R-I-N.
If you want to look her up onLinkedIn, she does a lot of
great posts about this butreally positioning yourself as A
honest and operating withintegrity.
If you're going through thatpitching process and the problem
comes up and you don't know theanswer, it is so much
(25:43):
exponentially more valuable foryou to look at that person in
the eyes over the Zoom call, orbe honest in an email feedback
where it's like I do not havethe direct answer for that
question.
Here are the three places thatI would go looking, and here's
why my past experience leads meto believe that I could solve
this issue for you, versustrying to come back and say like
(26:04):
, oh, I've encountered thisbefore.
This is a thing.
I'm going to find this Becausethat does two things.
A, you're going to put yourselfin a situation where I like to
say, don't fake it till you makeit.
Embody it until you become it,and you don't want to fake it
until you make it.
Then you end up living somebodyelse's life and you end up
putting yourself in situationsthat you should not be in, and
then you're stressed as hellwhen you're up in those
(26:26):
situations.
And then, secondly, the clienthas a lot less forgiveness or
anticipated wiggle room when yousay, hey, I have the solution
for this, this is what we'regoing to do, and then get behind
the walls and I used to workconstruction right, we would
never tell a customer, hey, thisis guaranteed what this is
going to be until we actuallycut the drywall and people look
(26:50):
at what's behind the wall, yeah,and so if you can say, hey, I
may not have a direct idea forthis, but they get a feel for
you being scrappy.
They know that you'reresourceful, they can see that
you're a problem solver and youanchor more on those aspects of
yourself rather than thespecifics of the thing that
you're trying to provide, I findthat the customers trust you a
(27:13):
little bit more and even if thatinitial job let's say you don't
even find the solution, but youget them really close and then
you connect them to the personthat they need in order to get
(27:33):
that solved.
Anytime they have an unsolvableissue, after that they're going
to be in your inbox, mm-hmm,being like, hey, we've been
working on this for six months,pounding our heads off of our
keyboards.
The last time you came in here,you were able to help us get to
the right person to solve theright problem within the right
price range within three weeksor a month, you know.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
Yeah is I've been in multiple situations where I
think it's a natural response tofeel stressed about being asked
about how to solve a problem orwhat the solution would be, and
the immediate reaction would beI feel stressed because I don't
(28:10):
actually know how to answerthat question sufficiently.
Because I don't actually knowhow to answer that question
sufficiently.
But getting to the point, likewhat you said, jan, is I
actually don't know.
But give me a day, give me 12hours, whatever, to do some
research and find the answer orto see if that leads us down the
right path.
Like you know, most of thetimes especially when I've had
(28:32):
to, like solve problems, youknow something is creating.
You know a um like a bottleneckin the way that things function
, or something on someone's um.
You know Shopify website is notactually producing whatever the
way that it's supposed to.
Most of the time, what you'relooking for what I like to, what
I call it is like it's.
It's like it's like one ofthose goofy little murder
(28:53):
mysteries.
Like you're looking for what Ilike to what I call it is like
it's like it's like one of thosegoofy little murder mysteries.
Like you're always looking forthe smoking gun, you know, but
you usually find it, you know.
So, and even if that, even ifthe discovery of the source of
someone's problem or where theymight actually need to position
themselves to solve their ownproblem, even if that hasn't
involved me at the end point ofproviding that solution or hands
(29:16):
on keyboard fixing what it isthat they need fixed, it does
inform them enough to say, okay,well, we need to hire someone
who would be a specialist or adeveloper to take care of this
issue.
And then that becomes anotherinteresting journey for me to
find sometimes that person to dothis thing, which I can't tell
(29:36):
you how many times I've actuallyhad to do that, and each time
it becomes a very edifyingexperience for me.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
Yeah, I love that.
We could probably spend anentire podcast episode just
talking about how being open toagain seizing opportunities that
present themselves instead ofseeking specific ones, and it's
a fine balance.
I'm not saying that youshouldn't niche down and I'm not
throwing ideal customer profileout the window.
Everyone listening, I'm nottrying to tell you to just keep
(30:05):
your net wide, that is not whatI'm saying.
But if you get into thoserelationships with customers,
it's fine to let them know thatyou're open to being passionate
about different areas of thebusiness, right, like you talked
about in the beginning,traditionally starting kind of
marketing and now you're doingmore ops stuff.
But you know how valuable it iscoming from an agency owner
perspective, right, you know howvaluable it is to find somebody
(30:26):
that understands how to managea team or the operations of
something that has also beenhands-on keyboard in the past
and knows how to relate to thoseindividuals, because that is a
huge issue.
If you were an agency ownerlistening to this and you have a
gap inside of your workload andyou're looking for somebody
that can come in and actually beable to bring a team up to par
(30:48):
and have those conversationsmanage some of that op side.
Somebody like Ben is a greatfit, because you bring somebody
in that knows ops really wellbut doesn't know the pain of
being a dev or being a emailmarketer or being somebody in
that position.
Them trying to lead withoutever having been in the trenches
is going to be a steep learningcurve, and so that's something
(31:10):
that I also am like really goingto double click on is the fact
that you've both been in thetrenches, hand on keyboard,
you've done those things andyou're able to kind of
understand the need, thebusiness responsibilities, the
bigger picture of what the execsmight be looking for, and kind
of more of that operation side.
I think is a very rare skillset combination and something
(31:31):
that is super valuable.
We're kind of entering our lastum.
It's wild that like a half hourhas already gone by and we're
entering our like last 10 minutelittle stretch here.
Yeah, um, so I mean, all ofthis has been awesome.
Where did a?
I'm curious, how did you findout about indie and where did
that land in?
Like your journey, um, and asfar as your experience kind of
(31:56):
coming out of the cohorts orbeing in the community at this
point, what are some things thatyou see that have been
impactful in your life or haveput you in.
You know, maybe it's thingsthat have put you in
uncomfortable situations.
Maybe it's not all positive,but what are some things that
you've noticed about thecurriculum now that you've been
an alumni?
Speaker 2 (32:17):
Yeah, the discovery of Indie Collective was really
interesting for me.
It started, actually, as aconversation that I was having
with my wife about who issomeone who has had the
experience and also seen thebenefit of just things that
invest in yourself as aprofessional, like executive
coaching and just development asa leader, as an executive, as a
(32:41):
team leader, as a communicator,et cetera.
So it was a conversation thatwe were having that was mostly
about, for me, running abusiness of one or
solopreneurship or whatever youwant to define it as is taking
the time and the resources thatyou have to continually pour
back into how you're developingyourself, which is only because,
(33:05):
at the end of the day, thebusiness is you.
You are the business.
So, if you are plateauing orstagnating, what do you think's
going to teach me more about whoI am, what am I good at like,
(33:37):
but also developing like thatside of how I'm already doing
business, but how do I do itbetter?
So it started.
It started as a conversation,and then I'm not kidding you
Maybe a week had gone by and andthis is not a plug, uh, of any
kind, you know, because I, um,I'm obligated to do so, but I
(33:58):
actually and this is so funnytoo the um, the, the company
that I actually use, that dideverything for me, like back
office, setting up my LLC, allthings legal, like telling me,
like all the types of paperworkthat I needed to do, do my taxes
, everything is actually anothercompany called Collective.
So you have Collective and thenyou have Indie Collective.
Two very different companies,two very different brands,
(34:22):
different groups of people.
But they sent me an email andit was basically an introduction
from Sam Lee, the founder ofIndie Collective, and it was
just so perfect, the way that Iwas having this conversation and
thinking about something thatyet again felt very foreign to
me, just kind of slid into placeand, um, so I, I just I saw
(34:44):
that as just like a, really, areally great opportunity.
So, you know, filled outwhatever the form was, and then,
you know, had a, um, a greatintroductory conversation with
sam, took a look at thecurriculum and, like you know
what this is exactly what I meanand there were some things that
were kind of floating around inmy mind about what I would, you
(35:04):
know, maybe, um, you know, putas a, uh, like a pin on the map
of of what curriculum would looklike for something like indie
collective, so it'd be thingslike understanding more, like
ideal client profiles or youknow, um, you know value-based
pricing, stuff like that, youknow.
So it was like man, like thoseare the things that I know that
I'm not really good at, so I'dlove to be a part of a program
like that.
So, um, that it was kind ofcrazy.
(35:27):
Everything really.
I mean again, another reallyweird instance of things kind of
presented themselves.
Something that I was curiousabout, but I didn't, you know, I
didn't go down the path oflooking, looking at getting like
an MBA, before I came to anycollective.
Any collective, definitely, youknow, on a computer screen, you
know, fell into my lap yeah, I,um, it's funny how.
Speaker 1 (35:56):
It's funny how the the universe like answers
questions.
Sometimes, you know you, Ichuckle because everybody is,
you know, hyper aware at thispoint, like, oh, my amazon,
alexa, is listening to me andnow my facebook is showing me
ads for something I never evensearched right.
Um, and but then they don'tbelieve in manifestation as a
thing.
And I'm, like you know, priorto that being like, you put the
(36:18):
idea out and it's the whole askand you shall receive concept
right, you open yourself up tothe possibility of that being a
thing, even if it's foreign,even if it feels scary, and then
boom, next thing you know, youhave an email in your inbox.
It's like whoa, like that'spretty close to what I was
talking about.
That's kind of, you know, crazy, um, and I think getting to a
(36:39):
place and it's not the firsttime I've heard it either, but
it's something that I want tohighlight Joining something like
Indie Collective should feel alittle bit uncomfortable.
Oh, you know, I, I have so manyconversations with people that
are getting ready to join peoplethat are, you know, I have so
many conversations with peoplethat are getting ready to join
people that are, you know, oh,this isn't the right time, or I
have clients that don't likethis doesn't make sense for me
(36:59):
right now, or you know thingslike that and I get it.
You know, when I went to goinvest into Indie Collective, I,
you know, put three out of thelast $7,000 that I had in my
bank account at the time, youknow, towards the course and I
was like, oh, like this is, youknow.
You know, put me into a placewhere I'm feeling a little bit
(37:19):
stressed or uncomfortable.
And you know, sam was, you know, the payment plan thing and all
that other kind of stuff wassuper helpful, um, but it didn't
feel 100 good, you know, andgoing through the curriculum
didn't feel 100 great all thetime.
But coming out of it and thenbeing able to, like, be
surrounded by other people thatI saw were just as uncomfortable
(37:42):
as I was but were willing toput themselves in that situation
, and then seeing them doingamazing things where like, oh,
maybe I can do the same thing,like I'm a peer.
I'm a peer in this group, youknow, we're kind of in the same
place.
Why am I not doing some of thisstuff?
And so, um, I, I, that's my, mykind of my final plug there, um
, you know, for the curriculumand stuff is even if it's
(38:04):
something that feelsuncomfortable, that's fine, like
that's kind of how it'ssupposed to be.
It's not supposed to feel 100%.
You know, sunshine and rainbows, yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:14):
And I would tell anyone I mean again, not not
that I'm anyone of note toanyone who's potentially
listening to this or as part ofIndie Collective, but just my,
my experience.
After you know, going throughIndie Collective in the fall and
I'm looking forward to doinganother cohort in the spring I
(38:34):
would say to your point isanyone who would be considering
Indie Collective or evensomething that would mirror
Indie Collective is not at anypoint was Indie presented as hey
, pay this fee and you'll getguaranteed this, and these are
(38:56):
the types of connections thatyou'll make and you're going to
grow your business by 60% orwhatever.
It's all about opportunity, butI think it's really more the
revelation that you can probablyexperience for yourself, where
you get to learn from peers butalso people like Kat Coffrin.
To me, that's the one mean thatto me, like that's one that.
That that stood out to me themost was, you know, just just
(39:18):
hearing the way that peopletalked about things that you're
already experiencing, and itcreates a better understanding
of how you could create actionyourself, cause again, no one's
coming back and saying like, oh,let me do all of these things
for you.
You still have to be thecatalyst to do all these things
in your own business.
So it does present theopportunity, I think, for you to
challenge yourself and yourthinking more critically.
(39:40):
But in no way is it just a signup and kind of go to this like
it's a college course.
It's not just about likestarting and finishing.
I think the biggest part ofIndie Collective and again, this
is not the most marketablething for Indie Collective, but
it creates useful turmoil and itshould.
(40:04):
I think people need tounderstand that you should feel
uncomfortable with your ownthings and your own work, that
you're doing and how you mightbe doing things better or
differently, or especiallylearning from other people, um,
and, and some of the things thatI've really enjoyed are just
like.
I've made plenty of mistakes.
I haven't been afraid to failin a lot of other places, but
(40:27):
learning how other people havedone that as well, you know it's
like.
It makes your palms startsweating.
You're like oh my gosh, it likeputs me back in that position
of like where you know you're,you're nervous about you know
what it is that you're doing, um, but it.
I think it puts you in aposition where it's um, it's
good because it's it's alsogiving you the motivation to
(40:47):
grow, you know, but um, that's,that's what I like the most.
Is that?
It, it, it, absolutely very, um, very eloquently puts you in a
position of discomfort, butposition for growth.
Speaker 1 (41:05):
Right.
Yeah, I always kind of think ofit like, like, when I went to
bootcamp for the air force,right 10 weeks uh, maybe it'd
been 11, um with airman's weekor whatever they called it at
the time.
But you know it was notpleasant and I'm not by any
means trying to compare theintensity of indie collective to
like basic training.
That is not trying to make um,but it's like the entrance right
(41:29):
, I, I and I see this a lot andit's from people that have
graduated and all over the placethat come out of Indie
Collective, from supply chainlogistics consultants to
e-commerce, to email marketing,to brand people, to coaches, all
this stuff.
There's this um sense of pridethat comes with being able to
say I'm an Indie alum, right.
(41:50):
And you don't get that sense ofpride and this sense of
community without mutuallysurviving something difficult
together, and I love the idea ofuseful turmoil.
It's never easy when you go toscale.
The version of you that got youto the start of the Indie
Collective cohort is not theversion of you that's going to
(42:11):
take your business to the nextlevel afterwards.
There's parts of your identitythat you're going to have to get
more in tune with.
There's parts that you're goingto have to prune in order to
allow more nutrients to go tothe parts that you want to
develop.
That's not pleasant, so I knowwe're at time here.
I want to make sure that peopleknow where to get a hold of you
, so if somebody is listening tothis and they're like I would
(42:32):
really love to have Ben on myteam.
Where is the best place forthem to find you on the
interwebs?
Speaker 2 (42:39):
I would say LinkedIn is probably the easiest place.
Actually, I mean, honestly,that's the way that I've kept up
with, I mean, other than likeemail and also using platforms
through Indie Collective.
That's the way that I've justconnected with people and just
messaging and bouncing someideas off of.
It's also just given me more ofa thought of like directly
asking questions as my networkof people that I meet grows,
(43:00):
looking for advice on you knowthings or asking about problems.
And man, I'm just alwayssurprised like people like you,
you know people just haveanswers or you know thoughts.
I'm like, hey, try this.
So I spend more time onLinkedIn, I think, especially
now.
Um, so, yeah, I mean, it's justmy name is Benjamin Gatz on
LinkedIn.
You can find me there.
Um, you can, you can.
(43:20):
I mean I have a website, um,but LinkedIn would would
definitely be the um easiestplace.
Speaker 1 (43:25):
Gatz is G E T Z right .
Speaker 2 (43:28):
E T Z.
Speaker 1 (43:29):
Yep, perfect, all right.
Well, you heard it here first.
If you want to get in touchwith Ben, hop on the LinkedIn.
At him, benjamin gets G E T Z.
If you want to talk to me, um,about the indie collective
curriculum or anything else, um,you know that came up as far as
questions on this episode.
That may be something that Ibrought up that you're more
interested in diving into.
You can look me up on LinkedIn.
It's Jan.
Looks like Jan J A N Alma C A LM A S Y Uh, and I'd be happy to
(43:54):
shoot you a message back.
So, um, again, this has beenanother episode of the modern
independent, the launchpadseries.
I hope everybody that'slistening has a great rest of
their day and a successful restof their year.
Welcome everybody to another episode of the Modern
Independent.
As you heard in the pre-reel,we are a podcast dedicated to
empowering independentconsultants, coaches, web
developers, designers andeverybody pretty much across all
spectrums of the job field.
As long as you are passionateabout being an independent
worker, we're here for you.
In today's episode, I'm goingto be hanging out with Indie
(00:24):
Collective alumni Ben Goetz.
We're going to be diving into alittle bit of his background,
some of his career path, whathe's getting into now and his
experience with the IndieCollective curriculum.
So, ben, thanks for coming onthe show.
Hey, thanks for having me.
You are super, super welcomeman.
So I think lately I've beenstarting these episodes off with
(00:48):
just kind of a dive back right.
I like to rewind before we getto where you're at currently and
what you're doing.
So almost everybody has sometype of origin story when it
comes to going independent,right, For some people it didn't
feel like a choice, for otherpeople it was very intentional
(01:11):
and then for people like me, youkind of fall into it and then
next thing you know you're like,oh wow, I'm doing
entrepreneurial things.
Which one of those categoriesdo you fall into?
Or maybe there's a checkbox forother category.
That was Ben's experience.
But how did you enter the ideaof going independent?
Speaker 2 (01:49):
it for a few years.
I spent the bulk of my careerin the really more like the
corporate marketing setting.
So I worked for a lot of largebrands that you would know, a
lot of tech-based companies,large brands, you know, with
worldwide footprints, nationalfootprints, and so I think I
just kind of had the idea that Iwas subscribed to being, you
know, like a cog in a largermarketing team for a larger
(02:13):
corporation.
And then, as life would have it, I am working for a large
company in the Atlanta area andmy wife is at home with our two
very young children at the timeand I got to experience what it
was like to be let go from amassive, massive team, which you
(02:36):
know just, I mean it happens,you know, I mean it's just a,
it's a formulation ofrestructuring or, um, you know
flattening ladders of teams andyou know, and so on and so forth
.
So I got to experience thatfirsthand and then the hardship
of that was it's just reallypractical things you know of
being, you know, still prettyyoung in my career.
(02:59):
You know we're pretty youngparents and the only things that
really matter is they're like Ijust have to take care of my
family, I have to provide thingslike health insurance and we
have to be able to, you know,live and pay our rent and buy
groceries, and you know and, and, and you know basics.
And so I, you know, I, verydesperately in this time where I
(03:22):
had, I was very, I was veryfortunate and they were very
generous to give me a nice longoff ramp of severance, which was
super helpful.
And you know, and I was reallynot maybe not desperately, but
probably desperately trying tofind my way back into some
corporate outfit where I was aW-2 employee with role,
(03:46):
responsibility, just things thatI understood, you know, things
that were more like a part ofbeing a larger marketing team
where I wasn't necessarily aspecialist but, you know, I had
some semblance of a definitionof a role.
So that's really what I wassearching for and found my way
down a slew of interviews anddifferent opportunities all over
(04:10):
the place and ended up gettingoffered a job, albeit in a
different city, and then, forwhatever reason, it didn't sit
well with having to move ourfamily to a completely different
state.
And then, you know, in thatthere was a turn where I was,
you know, through thatconnection it just kind of
(04:32):
lofted the idea of you know, hey, would you be interested in
doing some contract work whileyou're looking for something
more full-time?
And it wasn't really somethingthat I had really considered, so
I just decided to say yes.
That conversation turned intotrial-level work and then that
trial level work very quicklyturned into work that I was able
(04:57):
to retain and continue doing ona consistent basis, and then
that turned into the first youknow contract that I was able to
retain, and then that turnedinto two, and then two turned
into four.
And that's why I say like Idon't know that it was really a
choice.
I think it kind of it reallypresented itself to me and then
(05:20):
I don't really think I realizedthat I was in the middle of like
, hey, I actually have probablya pretty viable business here
that I can run by myself that'sbased off of skills that I've
acquired and especially, youknow that again, like not really
being a specialist, but justthings that I knew that I had
developed and and just beingresourceful and just and knowing
(05:42):
how to and knowing how to buildtrust, to know that I was
capable of or I guess the betterway of answering is like I knew
that I was capable of being theperson that someone would hire
to find the answer or find thesolution, knowing full well that
(06:02):
I might not have that answer orsolution outright, but knowing
that I was the person that theycould trust to do so.
So, I mean, I think being ascrappy, young dad, millennial,
ready to take on the challenge,is really where I found myself,
and you know, so it was.
Yeah, I mean, gosh, it's.
(06:24):
It's crazy to think that thatwas six years ago.
And, um, if, if anyone were tosay, hey, man, six years, in six
years, here's what you're goingto be doing, it would have felt
like Everest, you know.
But I mean again, like in, inthose moments, you know, the
only thing that you're thinkingof is like, the only thing that
(06:47):
you're thinking of is like Ihave to solve the problem of the
immediate, of right now.
The only thing I cared aboutwas my, my wife and my kids and,
just like you know, maintaining, you know, the, the life that
we had without having to, youknow, scramble, you know.
So how, how do I, how do I fillthat gap?
Basically, that's the onlything that I was really focused
on.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
And I, yeah, sorry, no, you're good, I mean to cut
you off, but something thatreally stands out to me as
you're talking about it, and I'dlove to point out stories or
themes that I've heard prettyconsistently over and over again
.
Right, because one of thethings about being the head of
community is that I get to hostthese things called office hours
, right, and so this 30 minutesessions, and now it's been
hundreds of of people that havecome through the program that
(07:31):
I've gotten to sit down and talkto you and like have those
conversations with.
And that's where those, theinitial, you know, question came
from.
Like, here are the three typesof categories that, like,
typically people find and itsounds like you, you kind of
fall into that, um, I fell intoit, or it presented itself to me
category, right, you're kind ofunaware of it.
And the next thing, you know,you're like wait, do I have a
business?
I have a business.
(07:51):
Yeah, you're like this ishappening.
Um, and I I love um.
Brad White is a is anothermember.
I think he was in your cohort,or maybe your second one.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
I love Brad White.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
But I was just talking to another member the
other day, or a prospectivemember for our spring cohort,
about Brad and how I could neveroperate like Brad.
But I really respect the wayBrad operates because he just
shoots from the hip directly andthen goes for it and then deals
with the consequences, iteratesand then just goes for it again
.
(08:24):
And I kind of distill that downand I know a lot of other people
like that and it seems likethere's this beautiful way of
moving through that processwhere you're not really ever
seeking specific opportunitiesbut you're keeping yourself
ready to seize the opportunitiesthat present themselves to you.
And it sounds like that's beenkind of a part of your journey
(08:49):
is like these opportunitiespresent themselves and then, as
you're continuing to go throughthe process, you're willing to
go out on a limb and seize thatopportunity as it comes in and
to your point it may seem likeMount Everest if you were to
think of where you are now andyou had that awareness back then
.
But if you're able to thinklike I just need to get to the
(09:12):
next plateau, I just need tofigure out how to fill the next
gap, I just need to figure outhow to the next gap, next thing
you know, you look back over sixyears and you're like, holy
crap, I summited Everest.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
Yeah.
So you know it's a really it'scomical to think of, and not
that I would tell anyone that Ihave a significant amount of
advice to impart or evenexperience that I would say is
transferable or can really eventranspose, you know.
(09:46):
But the one thing that I wouldsay is not, I mean, and again I
think my position was so solelybased on provision, where you
know, like it's simply, ifthere's an absence of this, I
have to make it into a presence,I have to fill that gap.
There can't be a gap Like,basically, that's the only
(10:08):
equation that matters is therecan't be negative space in this
space in our life.
So, um, so I think remainingopen, um, especially because and
this is this is just such aninteresting thing, because even,
um, even just recently, havinga few conversations with people
who work, you know, more so inlike the, like professional
(10:28):
development space, or even likeprofessional coaching space, is,
um, I think the thing that I'vereally found for me and again
it's it's really just wherewhere a lot of my experience has
led me is I I never even onceconsidered the, the idea of
specializing in one thing orhaving something that I could
(10:49):
say, like man, it's so easy forme to productize because it hits
a business at a very specifictime in wherever they are like,
in some sort of gestationalperiod or life cycle of where
they are with their currentbusiness model or product or
whatever.
I have done so many things thatare very difficult to quantify
(11:15):
in a way that they would fitinto the same category or fit
into the same level of need.
But again, everything kind ofties back to a lot of things
that I either had a lot ofexperience in or just enough
with a resourceful attitude andapproach, where it was pretty
easy to become this solutionsperson, you know, and just being
(11:38):
solutions minded of.
You know, I mean it was, it wasjust this place that I had to
really put myself and saying yesand knowing that I really
didn't, I mean I guess I didn'thave the opportunity to say no
to a certain extent, you know.
(12:00):
I mean you know what, what,what would it be that would be
the deterrent, you know, for meto say no, what, what would I?
What would I have to?
Where would I have to be inorder to turn down work?
You know, I was never in thatplace.
I was like man the more that Ican do, the more it's going to
create a foundation for me tostand on.
It's going to be either a shortor a long-term learning
(12:21):
experience for me.
Everything is great.
But yeah, it definitely turnedfrom that into I'm not kidding
man a couple of years had goneby and then I finally got to the
point and I was havingconversations with my accountant
or financial planner andthey're like hey, have you ever
considered incorporating andactually setting up an LLC,
(12:42):
basically making a business,rather than you just being like
a sole proprietor?
So that conversation became anarrative and that's what led me
finally to the path where it'slike man, I actually had this a
long time ago, but you know.
So, getting getting to thepoint where, yeah, they're like
are you sure you don't want toturn this into a S corp?
Yeah, and it's funny too, likeon that note, I mean I think
(13:04):
that's that's probably like oneof the biggest pieces of um.
You know if it's advice or justlike my experience, just from
turning, turning the path intoum, I mean there's multiple
levels of viability.
You know, for me it was neverabout legitimacy.
I was like I don't have to, Idon't want to feel like an
agency.
I'm not, I don't present myselfas an agency, like I'm one
(13:26):
person, um, I mean again like avery resourceful person that can
probably move really nimbly,but I never positioned myself as
like, oh, I'm this company.
It's like, hey, it's just me,like this is me, like this's a
few things that we can, you know, have as as as conversation
(13:47):
starters or thought starters,and so you know, I I think that
just having having that type ofexperience, it was, yeah, it was
, it was just really it wasreally surprising when I got to
the, to the point of ofrealizing that it's a lot more
simplified than I ever thoughtit could be.
(14:08):
And things are just I meanalmost everything just in terms
of turning down the path of like, hey, you're working as a sole
proprietor into forming an LLCand having a business, and more
like proper back office, maybeyou're filing as an S corp.
You know, just like simplethings that other people have
taught me really within the past, like two years, um, it is.
(14:32):
That is the one thing that Iwould say is like I just had
this.
I had this idea that it was soshrouded in mystery that it was
complicated, that it requiredthat it was complicated, that it
required.
You know, I don't know like atax professional, a shaman.
You know a.
You know like a lawyer.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
I was going to say the shaman that is also a lawyer
on the side.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
Yeah, I know.
And again, man, like it's justlike, it's just this weird like
fallacy that I just I just didnot have the capacity to really
engage.
And I mean, I think the bestpart of that story is, like, I
was just so wrong about it, like, and I don't know that it was
the same thing probably like 10years ago, but I mean the
(15:16):
process, I think, in a lot ofdifferent directions, is just on
rails, like it's just like, hey, uh, click this button to get
started.
A couple of days go by and then, yeah, like, all of your
paperwork for becoming an LLCcan be done, you know.
And then there's just peoplewho know things that you don't
have to understand or understandfully or find answers to,
(15:41):
because these people that youcan hire to do these things for
you are out there and I mean,again, man, they just dispel a
lot of like these, I think, justrumors that you might somehow
buy into, not even from anindividual, but just that you
kind of tell yourself.
So, yeah, I mean it was funnyhow I just kind of looked back
(16:04):
and I had this.
I had something really greatall along, and I think that's
probably the biggest thing thatI've learned is if, after like
my first year, year and a half,someone had just said, hey, just
do these things, like that'sthe one thing that I would
recommend to anyone is there'sjust no reason to hesitate.
(16:26):
It's such a great move just tohave solid tax professionals,
back office, bookkeepingsoftware oh my gosh and then
getting to the point where it'sjust a level of viability for
the way that you can run thingsas a business are so much more
(16:47):
efficient than just being a soleproprietor.
So that's the biggest thingthat I feel like I've learned
just from a structural businessstandpoint.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
Yeah, I tell people all the time and I just had this
conversation with a buddy ofmine the other day because he
was Googling around and he waslike, oh, it says that it's
going to cost me like $300through this company to file my
LLC and some of this other stuff.
And I said, go to this OhioSecretary of State, do a name
search.
If it doesn't show up, go totheir articles of organization
(17:19):
filing, pick the name, pay 99bucks.
You just have to put your nameand the date of the filing and
some other very basicinformation on it.
You can file for your EINnumber, your federal
identification number, for freeon irsgov and then you can start
to get bookkeeper or, if youhave partners, you can talk to a
(17:42):
lawyer about an operatingagreement or any of that other
kind of stuff.
But all the rest of it is sosimple and I'm with you.
I mean I didn't learn.
I mean I went to nursing schoolso we didn't learn anything
about incorporating or LLCs oranything like that period.
But it blows my mind how, howintense people perceive that
process to be, and I find that alot in Indie Collective too,
(18:03):
which I have.
One more question that I wantto ask you about your Indie
Collective experience.
But I find that in IndieCollective, too, that there's
parts of the curriculum whereand I think we have maybe even
had this conversation when youfirst came into the community,
but I'm like everybody by weekfive is having an existential
crisis.
That is the general state ofthe union.
You get through the firstcouple of weeks and you're like
(18:24):
oh, I'm designing my life.
This is going to be great.
There's so many thingshappening and then by week five
you're like I don't, I havenothing, I don't know what's
going on.
Like there's so many things.
But you get to that place andlike I think part of it is I
don't think it's intimidation oroverwhelm, because there and
(18:50):
it's actually not as bad as Ithought, but there's a lot of it
.
Speaker 2 (18:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:54):
To do so before we get into the like, I kind of
want to plant that scene, butbefore we get into the indie
collective experience, I'mcurious.
I mean we've talked about kindof your, your journey into it
and a little bit about what youdo, but but team gets is your
site.
You know that you launched, Ithink, either during or
immediately after one of thecohorts.
(19:14):
You were able to kind of getthat moving, um and so what is
in your mind, team gets and like, what are some of the services
that you are the most passionateabout?
You don't have to go throughyour entire services list, but
maybe some examples of you knowa project that you got the
chance to work on that youreally enjoyed, or some of the
parts that you get to do withcustomers that really bring joy
(19:36):
into your life.
Speaker 2 (19:37):
Yeah, yeah, it's really cool, you know.
I mean I've just I've had anopportunity to work as a
consultant, you know, reallymostly in the in the e-commerce
space, and I think initially Iwould have probably defined a
lot of what I did or do reallymore with a marketing veneer,
(19:59):
and really more lately I think alot of it really falls much
more into the side of operations, especially operations that
also are multi-departmental orthey touch multiple teams, I
guess is probably the best wayto put it.
And I mean I have a reallydistinct privilege of working
(20:21):
with some larger companies, somesmaller companies.
I mean again, just in scale,just like the number of people,
the number of people thatactually work for some of the
people that I get to do work for, you know, it can be a much
more like flat organization.
Or I can work with someone whois, you know, in a like director
(20:41):
level position of a team, youknow.
So I, I I did end up in, Iended up like incorporating
about two years ago and you know, but I finally got to the point
where I was like you know whatI just I have like so much great
experience.
I've just never really takenthe time to actually put that
(21:02):
down in a way that has somelevel of storytelling behind it
of you know, I mean, it's stilla funny question, like I was
actually just having aconversation a couple of days
ago where if someone were to say, what is it that you do, how
would you, in some concisesoundbite, communicate that?
(21:24):
And my first question was is, Idon't know, an acceptable
answer?
And of course it's not.
So I think being resourceful andalso being which I think a lot
of people would identify with iscoming from the position of
(21:46):
becoming a generalist is areally good thing and also a
really interesting thing to gothrough the process of trying to
distill.
So, um, you know, I I think thethings that I get to do I mean
again like kind of looking ateverything with the veneer of of
generalist mode um, the thingsthat I really enjoy are, um, you
(22:11):
know, things that that I can,things that I can help a team or
a brand or a company understandthat they might not have
someone in their organization orpart of their headcount.
They know that it's somethingthat they would find value in or
they have not actuallyestablished.
So something like emailmarketing would be a perfect
(22:32):
example of hey, we have all ofthis customer data and we've
never done anything with it.
But we'd love to createsomething like a regular, some
level of communique of an emailnewsletter or some sort of
update or just regular piece ofcommunication with mastheads and
(22:55):
like different sections of ourbusiness.
Like I love getting to thepoint where I get to help
develop what that actually lookslike, cause it's not like I'm
not the most I'm certainly not adesigner, I'm definitely not a
the type of person where I wouldlean on my creative prowess.
I would.
I would love much more tooffload that to someone else
(23:16):
who's much more skilled than Iam.
But creating the structure, theunderstanding of audiences, of
segmentation, of what level ofaudience health are you finding
at high, medium and low, andwhat do those levels of, or what
do those pieces ofcommunication start to look like
(23:37):
?
How can you start to diversifywhat it is that you feel like
you need to communicate and whatare the things that you would
say are actually of value topeople that you, whether or not
you want to look at it?
It's like hey, this is yourcommunity, like, these are your
people, like these are peoplewho care.
No-transcript.
(24:20):
So I really love getting to dostuff like that.
It's always really fun.
It's like a discovery phase,but also then the strategizing
and implementation and thenmanagement outside of that and
working with teams to actuallybring a lot of that to fruition
is always really fun.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
Yeah, I think, a theme that I want to point out
for people that you know, maybeyou're you're thinking to
yourself like I'm an emailmarketer, I'm, you know, have
worked inside of these samespaces and I'm you know, I'm
getting blocked on leadconversations or, you know,
people are getting to the pointwhere I'm giving out proposals
and they're ghosting me andthere's other things that happen
, you know, along the way.
One thing that I want to pointout that Ben is, you know, kind
(24:59):
of consistently revisiting ashe's talking through, is the
idea that you're not justpositioning a specific skill set
right and this is somethingthat I think Kat Coffrin's
session inside of the IndieCollective cohort does a great
job of doing but, you know,focusing on your personal brand,
(25:21):
and I think it's the four orthe five Ps I'm not going to try
to name them all because I willget that wrong but Kat Coffrin
C-A-T-C-O-F-F-R-I-N.
If you want to look her up onLinkedIn, she does a lot of
great posts about this butreally positioning yourself as A
honest and operating withintegrity.
If you're going through thatpitching process and the problem
comes up and you don't know theanswer, it is so much
(25:43):
exponentially more valuable foryou to look at that person in
the eyes over the Zoom call, orbe honest in an email feedback
where it's like I do not havethe direct answer for that
question.
Here are the three places thatI would go looking, and here's
why my past experience leads meto believe that I could solve
this issue for you, versustrying to come back and say like
(26:04):
, oh, I've encountered thisbefore.
This is a thing.
I'm going to find this Becausethat does two things.
A, you're going to put yourselfin a situation where I like to
say, don't fake it till you makeit.
Embody it until you become it,and you don't want to fake it
until you make it.
Then you end up living somebodyelse's life and you end up
putting yourself in situationsthat you should not be in, and
then you're stressed as hellwhen you're up in those
(26:26):
situations.
And then, secondly, the clienthas a lot less forgiveness or
anticipated wiggle room when yousay, hey, I have the solution
for this, this is what we'regoing to do, and then get behind
the walls and I used to workconstruction right, we would
never tell a customer, hey, thisis guaranteed what this is
going to be until we actuallycut the drywall and people look
(26:50):
at what's behind the wall, yeah,and so if you can say, hey, I
may not have a direct idea forthis, but they get a feel for
you being scrappy.
They know that you'reresourceful, they can see that
you're a problem solver and youanchor more on those aspects of
yourself rather than thespecifics of the thing that
you're trying to provide, I findthat the customers trust you a
(27:13):
little bit more and even if thatinitial job let's say you don't
even find the solution, but youget them really close and then
you connect them to the personthat they need in order to get
(27:33):
that solved.
Anytime they have an unsolvableissue, after that they're going
to be in your inbox, mm-hmm,being like, hey, we've been
working on this for six months,pounding our heads off of our
keyboards.
The last time you came in here,you were able to help us get to
the right person to solve theright problem within the right
price range within three weeksor a month, you know.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
Yeah is I've been in multiple situations where I
think it's a natural response tofeel stressed about being asked
about how to solve a problem orwhat the solution would be, and
the immediate reaction would beI feel stressed because I don't
(28:10):
actually know how to answerthat question sufficiently.
Because I don't actually knowhow to answer that question
sufficiently.
But getting to the point, likewhat you said, jan, is I
actually don't know.
But give me a day, give me 12hours, whatever, to do some
research and find the answer orto see if that leads us down the
right path.
Like you know, most of thetimes especially when I've had
(28:32):
to, like solve problems, youknow something is creating.
You know a um like a bottleneckin the way that things function
, or something on someone's um.
You know Shopify website is notactually producing whatever the
way that it's supposed to.
Most of the time, what you'relooking for what I like to, what
I call it is like it's.
It's like it's like one ofthose goofy little murder
(28:53):
mysteries.
Like you're looking for what Ilike to what I call it is like
it's like it's like one of thosegoofy little murder mysteries.
Like you're always looking forthe smoking gun, you know, but
you usually find it, you know.
So, and even if that, even ifthe discovery of the source of
someone's problem or where theymight actually need to position
themselves to solve their ownproblem, even if that hasn't
involved me at the end point ofproviding that solution or hands
(29:16):
on keyboard fixing what it isthat they need fixed, it does
inform them enough to say, okay,well, we need to hire someone
who would be a specialist or adeveloper to take care of this
issue.
And then that becomes anotherinteresting journey for me to
find sometimes that person to dothis thing, which I can't tell
(29:36):
you how many times I've actuallyhad to do that, and each time
it becomes a very edifyingexperience for me.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
Yeah, I love that.
We could probably spend anentire podcast episode just
talking about how being open toagain seizing opportunities that
present themselves instead ofseeking specific ones, and it's
a fine balance.
I'm not saying that youshouldn't niche down and I'm not
throwing ideal customer profileout the window.
Everyone listening, I'm nottrying to tell you to just keep
(30:05):
your net wide, that is not whatI'm saying.
But if you get into thoserelationships with customers,
it's fine to let them know thatyou're open to being passionate
about different areas of thebusiness, right, like you talked
about in the beginning,traditionally starting kind of
marketing and now you're doingmore ops stuff.
But you know how valuable it iscoming from an agency owner
perspective, right, you know howvaluable it is to find somebody
(30:26):
that understands how to managea team or the operations of
something that has also beenhands-on keyboard in the past
and knows how to relate to thoseindividuals, because that is a
huge issue.
If you were an agency ownerlistening to this and you have a
gap inside of your workload andyou're looking for somebody
that can come in and actually beable to bring a team up to par
(30:48):
and have those conversationsmanage some of that op side.
Somebody like Ben is a greatfit, because you bring somebody
in that knows ops really wellbut doesn't know the pain of
being a dev or being a emailmarketer or being somebody in
that position.
Them trying to lead withoutever having been in the trenches
is going to be a steep learningcurve, and so that's something
(31:10):
that I also am like really goingto double click on is the fact
that you've both been in thetrenches, hand on keyboard,
you've done those things andyou're able to kind of
understand the need, thebusiness responsibilities, the
bigger picture of what the execsmight be looking for, and kind
of more of that operation side.
I think is a very rare skillset combination and something
(31:31):
that is super valuable.
We're kind of entering our lastum.
It's wild that like a half hourhas already gone by and we're
entering our like last 10 minutelittle stretch here.
Yeah, um, so I mean, all ofthis has been awesome.
Where did a?
I'm curious, how did you findout about indie and where did
that land in?
Like your journey, um, and asfar as your experience kind of
(31:56):
coming out of the cohorts orbeing in the community at this
point, what are some things thatyou see that have been
impactful in your life or haveput you in.
You know, maybe it's thingsthat have put you in
uncomfortable situations.
Maybe it's not all positive,but what are some things that
you've noticed about thecurriculum now that you've been
an alumni?
Speaker 2 (32:17):
Yeah, the discovery of Indie Collective was really
interesting for me.
It started, actually, as aconversation that I was having
with my wife about who issomeone who has had the
experience and also seen thebenefit of just things that
invest in yourself as aprofessional, like executive
coaching and just development asa leader, as an executive, as a
(32:41):
team leader, as a communicator,et cetera.
So it was a conversation thatwe were having that was mostly
about, for me, running abusiness of one or
solopreneurship or whatever youwant to define it as is taking
the time and the resources thatyou have to continually pour
back into how you're developingyourself, which is only because,
(33:05):
at the end of the day, thebusiness is you.
You are the business.
So, if you are plateauing orstagnating, what do you think's
going to teach me more about whoI am, what am I good at like,
(33:37):
but also developing like thatside of how I'm already doing
business, but how do I do itbetter?
So it started.
It started as a conversation,and then I'm not kidding you
Maybe a week had gone by and andthis is not a plug, uh, of any
kind, you know, because I, um,I'm obligated to do so, but I
(33:58):
actually and this is so funnytoo the um, the, the company
that I actually use, that dideverything for me, like back
office, setting up my LLC, allthings legal, like telling me,
like all the types of paperworkthat I needed to do, do my taxes
, everything is actually anothercompany called Collective.
So you have Collective and thenyou have Indie Collective.
Two very different companies,two very different brands,
(34:22):
different groups of people.
But they sent me an email andit was basically an introduction
from Sam Lee, the founder ofIndie Collective, and it was
just so perfect, the way that Iwas having this conversation and
thinking about something thatyet again felt very foreign to
me, just kind of slid into placeand, um, so I, I just I saw
(34:44):
that as just like a, really, areally great opportunity.
So, you know, filled outwhatever the form was, and then,
you know, had a, um, a greatintroductory conversation with
sam, took a look at thecurriculum and, like you know
what this is exactly what I meanand there were some things that
were kind of floating around inmy mind about what I would, you
(35:04):
know, maybe, um, you know, putas a, uh, like a pin on the map
of of what curriculum would looklike for something like indie
collective, so it'd be thingslike understanding more, like
ideal client profiles or youknow, um, you know value-based
pricing, stuff like that, youknow.
So it was like man, like thoseare the things that I know that
I'm not really good at, so I'dlove to be a part of a program
like that.
So, um, that it was kind ofcrazy.
(35:27):
Everything really.
I mean again, another reallyweird instance of things kind of
presented themselves.
Something that I was curiousabout, but I didn't, you know, I
didn't go down the path oflooking, looking at getting like
an MBA, before I came to anycollective.
Any collective, definitely, youknow, on a computer screen, you
know, fell into my lap yeah, I,um, it's funny how.
Speaker 1 (35:56):
It's funny how the the universe like answers
questions.
Sometimes, you know you, Ichuckle because everybody is,
you know, hyper aware at thispoint, like, oh, my amazon,
alexa, is listening to me andnow my facebook is showing me
ads for something I never evensearched right.
Um, and but then they don'tbelieve in manifestation as a
thing.
And I'm, like you know, priorto that being like, you put the
(36:18):
idea out and it's the whole askand you shall receive concept
right, you open yourself up tothe possibility of that being a
thing, even if it's foreign,even if it feels scary, and then
boom, next thing you know, youhave an email in your inbox.
It's like whoa, like that'spretty close to what I was
talking about.
That's kind of, you know, crazy, um, and I think getting to a
(36:39):
place and it's not the firsttime I've heard it either, but
it's something that I want tohighlight Joining something like
Indie Collective should feel alittle bit uncomfortable.
Oh, you know, I, I have so manyconversations with people that
are getting ready to join peoplethat are, you know, I have so
many conversations with peoplethat are getting ready to join
people that are, you know, oh,this isn't the right time, or I
have clients that don't likethis doesn't make sense for me
(36:59):
right now, or you know thingslike that and I get it.
You know, when I went to goinvest into Indie Collective, I,
you know, put three out of thelast $7,000 that I had in my
bank account at the time, youknow, towards the course and I
was like, oh, like this is, youknow.
You know, put me into a placewhere I'm feeling a little bit
(37:19):
stressed or uncomfortable.
And you know, sam was, you know, the payment plan thing and all
that other kind of stuff wassuper helpful, um, but it didn't
feel 100 good, you know, andgoing through the curriculum
didn't feel 100 great all thetime.
But coming out of it and thenbeing able to, like, be
surrounded by other people thatI saw were just as uncomfortable
(37:42):
as I was but were willing toput themselves in that situation
, and then seeing them doingamazing things where like, oh,
maybe I can do the same thing,like I'm a peer.
I'm a peer in this group, youknow, we're kind of in the same
place.
Why am I not doing some of thisstuff?
And so, um, I, I, that's my, mykind of my final plug there, um
, you know, for the curriculumand stuff is even if it's
(38:04):
something that feelsuncomfortable, that's fine, like
that's kind of how it'ssupposed to be.
It's not supposed to feel 100%.
You know, sunshine and rainbows, yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:14):
And I would tell anyone I mean again, not not
that I'm anyone of note toanyone who's potentially
listening to this or as part ofIndie Collective, but just my,
my experience.
After you know, going throughIndie Collective in the fall and
I'm looking forward to doinganother cohort in the spring I
(38:34):
would say to your point isanyone who would be considering
Indie Collective or evensomething that would mirror
Indie Collective is not at anypoint was Indie presented as hey
, pay this fee and you'll getguaranteed this, and these are
(38:56):
the types of connections thatyou'll make and you're going to
grow your business by 60% orwhatever.
It's all about opportunity, butI think it's really more the
revelation that you can probablyexperience for yourself, where
you get to learn from peers butalso people like Kat Coffrin.
To me, that's the one mean thatto me, like that's one that.
That that stood out to me themost was, you know, just just
(39:18):
hearing the way that peopletalked about things that you're
already experiencing, and itcreates a better understanding
of how you could create actionyourself, cause again, no one's
coming back and saying like, oh,let me do all of these things
for you.
You still have to be thecatalyst to do all these things
in your own business.
So it does present theopportunity, I think, for you to
challenge yourself and yourthinking more critically.
(39:40):
But in no way is it just a signup and kind of go to this like
it's a college course.
It's not just about likestarting and finishing.
I think the biggest part ofIndie Collective and again, this
is not the most marketablething for Indie Collective, but
it creates useful turmoil and itshould.
(40:04):
I think people need tounderstand that you should feel
uncomfortable with your ownthings and your own work, that
you're doing and how you mightbe doing things better or
differently, or especiallylearning from other people, um,
and, and some of the things thatI've really enjoyed are just
like.
I've made plenty of mistakes.
I haven't been afraid to failin a lot of other places, but
(40:27):
learning how other people havedone that as well, you know it's
like.
It makes your palms startsweating.
You're like oh my gosh, it likeputs me back in that position
of like where you know you're,you're nervous about you know
what it is that you're doing, um, but it.
I think it puts you in aposition where it's um, it's
good because it's it's alsogiving you the motivation to
(40:47):
grow, you know, but um, that's,that's what I like the most.
Is that?
It, it, it, absolutely very, um, very eloquently puts you in a
position of discomfort, butposition for growth.
Speaker 1 (41:05):
Right.
Yeah, I always kind of think ofit like, like, when I went to
bootcamp for the air force,right 10 weeks uh, maybe it'd
been 11, um with airman's weekor whatever they called it at
the time.
But you know it was notpleasant and I'm not by any
means trying to compare theintensity of indie collective to
like basic training.
That is not trying to make um,but it's like the entrance right
(41:29):
, I, I and I see this a lot andit's from people that have
graduated and all over the placethat come out of Indie
Collective, from supply chainlogistics consultants to
e-commerce, to email marketing,to brand people, to coaches, all
this stuff.
There's this um sense of pridethat comes with being able to
say I'm an Indie alum, right.
(41:50):
And you don't get that sense ofpride and this sense of
community without mutuallysurviving something difficult
together, and I love the idea ofuseful turmoil.
It's never easy when you go toscale.
The version of you that got youto the start of the Indie
Collective cohort is not theversion of you that's going to
(42:11):
take your business to the nextlevel afterwards.
There's parts of your identitythat you're going to have to get
more in tune with.
There's parts that you're goingto have to prune in order to
allow more nutrients to go tothe parts that you want to
develop.
That's not pleasant, so I knowwe're at time here.
I want to make sure that peopleknow where to get a hold of you
, so if somebody is listening tothis and they're like I would
(42:32):
really love to have Ben on myteam.
Where is the best place forthem to find you on the
interwebs?
Speaker 2 (42:39):
I would say LinkedIn is probably the easiest place.
Actually, I mean, honestly,that's the way that I've kept up
with, I mean, other than likeemail and also using platforms
through Indie Collective.
That's the way that I've justconnected with people and just
messaging and bouncing someideas off of.
It's also just given me more ofa thought of like directly
asking questions as my networkof people that I meet grows,
(43:00):
looking for advice on you knowthings or asking about problems.
And man, I'm just alwayssurprised like people like you,
you know people just haveanswers or you know thoughts.
I'm like, hey, try this.
So I spend more time onLinkedIn, I think, especially
now.
Um, so, yeah, I mean, it's justmy name is Benjamin Gatz on
LinkedIn.
You can find me there.
Um, you can, you can.
(43:20):
I mean I have a website, um,but LinkedIn would would
definitely be the um easiestplace.
Speaker 1 (43:25):
Gatz is G E T Z right .
Speaker 2 (43:28):
E T Z.
Speaker 1 (43:29):
Yep, perfect, all right.
Well, you heard it here first.
If you want to get in touchwith Ben, hop on the LinkedIn.
At him, benjamin gets G E T Z.
If you want to talk to me, um,about the indie collective
curriculum or anything else, um,you know that came up as far as
questions on this episode.
That may be something that Ibrought up that you're more
interested in diving into.
You can look me up on LinkedIn.
It's Jan.
Looks like Jan J A N Alma C A LM A S Y Uh, and I'd be happy to
(43:54):
shoot you a message back.
So, um, again, this has beenanother episode of the modern
independent, the launchpadseries.
I hope everybody that'slistening has a great rest of
their day and a successful restof their year.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy, Jess Hilarious, And Charlamagne Tha God!