June 13, 2025 • 36 mins
The 7-Figure Playbook: Ditch the Pitch—Lead Sales Like an Expert w/ Allison Davis
Most independent consultants and coaches unknowingly sabotage their sales by rushing to the finish line—pitching too soon, pricing too low, and solving surface-level problems.
In this episode of The 7-Figure Playbook, Sam Lee (IndeCollective, Founder & CEO) sits down with sales powerhouse and IndeCollective expert guide Allison Davis to flip the script. You’ll learn how to ditch “vendor syndrome” and lead sales conversations like the expert you are.
We cover:
- Why “just saying yes” to client requests makes you look like a vendor—and what to do instead
- The ALIGN framework (Agenda, Ask, Look deeper, Inspire, Get feedback, Next steps) that helps you take command of every sales conversation
- Why the best salespeople ask 11–14 follow-up questions per call (and how to do it without sounding like a robot)
- The importance of a Fingerprints Meeting—and how it can double your proposal close rate
- How to keep TABS (Timeline, Authority, Budget, Strategy) so your proposal doesn’t get ghosted
- Why your proposal should start with the client’s pain—not your company bio
- How to run a three-legged race with your decision maker to cross the procurement finish line—together
Whether you’re landing your first $50K deal or ready to scale to seven figures, this episode will change the way you sell.
Ready to walk (or run) the expert path? Let’s go.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the Modern Independent, a podcast
dedicated to inspiring,equipping and empowering top
independent workers tosupercharge their careers and
build more balanced lives.
As you probably already know,we have three flavors of the
Modern Independent, and todayyou're joining us for an episode
of the Seven-Figure Playbook, aseries where I, sam Lee, the
(00:21):
founder and CEO of IndieCollective, interview
distinguished independentbusiness builders, folks who are
here to share with you thepractical playbooks that have
helped them to build moresuccessful businesses while
living their own balanced lives.
Today, I am super pumped to bejoined by a dear friend and an
expert guide at Indie Collective, allison Davis.
(00:42):
Allison is a commercial leaderand a company builder, someone
with more than two decades ofsales experience, selling five,
six and seven figure B2B deals,as well as training founders and
their teams to grow theirservice-based businesses.
Today, allison and I are goingto talk about how to powerfully
lead sales conversations andalso how to send value-based
(01:05):
proposals, proposals that willhave you consistently charging
your worth rather than gettingnegotiated out of it at the
finish line.
Having personally coachedhundreds of top consultants, I
found that most make a bigmistake when it comes to sales,
namely when they're too eager towin new business and just get
started.
They race to the sales finishline, grasping at short straws
(01:29):
and ultimately pitching smallishproposals that solve smallish
problems for smallish value andreturn, and that, simply put, is
not what an expert like youshould be doing, and that's
certainly not what IndieCollective members do.
And that's because, through our10-week bootcamp, allison
trains our members to powerfullylead sales conversations like a
(01:54):
real expert.
In today's episode, allison andI are going to unpack what it
looks and feels like to show uplike an expert, because when you
do that in sales conversations,it's going to mean big things
for your bottom line.
We'll also get into specifictips and steps that you can take
today to shift into powerfullyleading sales conversations.
(02:15):
And then, last but not least,we'll talk through how you can
shift from leading thosepowerful sales conversations to
sending value-based proposals,ones that will have you growing
your average contract value andensuring that you always charge
your worth.
So, with that, let's get intoit.
Allison, thanks so much forjoining us.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
Thanks so much for having me, sam.
What a nice introduction.
And, even more than that, thankyou so much for having me part
of the Indie Collectivecommunity.
It's such a great place to be.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
Oh my gosh, my absolute pleasure.
Well, let's start with thebottom line up front At this
point.
You've helped hundreds of ourmembers, consultants and coaches
to develop their salessuperpowers.
Before we get into the how youdo that, I'd love to start with
(03:06):
a little bit of a conversationaround why it is so important
for consultants and coaches toshow up like an expert.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Yeah, yeah, that little thing I like to call
vendor syndrome, and if you'resuffering from it, we need to
shift and I really appreciateyou starting here, because it
really does start with themindset and the intention of how
you want to show up.
When I work with clients, wetalk about what is the
(03:37):
difference between showing uplike a vendor, which is very
transactional and has a placefor sure, versus showing up in
your expertise, which is nottransactional.
It's helping people betransformational.
You know the people I work with.
They sell consulting andservices that solve often really
(04:01):
complex problems and they'reable to do that because they are
experts.
They spent time in corporate orin the workforce doing this
thing or buying this thing.
In some cases they understandit deeply and it's a shame when
they show up like they'reselling printer paper Nothing
(04:23):
wrong with that, but you don'thave to be an expert.
I mean maybe a little bit ofexpertise in paper.
When they show up like they'reselling print printer paper,
nothing wrong with that, but youdon't have to be an ex.
I mean maybe a little bit ofexpertise in in you know in in
paper, but like you know what Imean, you don't have to be an
expert about how a company uh,you know functions to sell
widgets, um and so when you showup uh, when I'm seeing my
(04:44):
subject matter experts show upas vendors, it kind of looks
like them showing up and sayingit's so nice to meet you, I'm so
glad Sam introduced us, tell meabout your problem.
And that buyer gives them anarrow problem and they're
seeking a narrow solution.
We need a new website.
And if you're showing up as avendor like, let's say, you're a
(05:05):
marketing agency or a brandingagency and someone says I need a
new website, I hear you're thebest.
If you're showing up as avendor, you're doing exactly
what you said, sam, earlier,which is getting to the finish
line with that easy grab saleASAP and thinking, well, I'll
sell them what they need later.
But an expert subject matterexpert, someone who's really
(05:27):
showing up in that role, issaying in their heads they're
saying, well, you need a newbrand and logo before you do
that website.
It's like they're really seeinga million things that that
buyer isn't and instead of justsaying yes, thank you so much,
that'll be 50 grand, and signthe contract and your new
website will be up in two months, they're saying, interesting,
(05:48):
tell me why now's a good timefor a new website.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
How do you?
Speaker 2 (05:53):
know what's working, what's not working Right, and
they're not taking that buyer atface value.
Rather, they're leading themand bringing clarity to the
greater need at hand.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
Great and we're going to get into some of these
specific questions andapproaches you can take to
really make the most out of thatconversation.
But what I'm hearing already isthat, through holding space for
this prospective client, you'rehelping them, with the right
questions and conversation, tofeel the gap, to feel the bigger
(06:28):
problem at hand and maybe thereare multiple or multifaceted
things at hand and in doing that, you're going to help them to
be primed to work with you as anexpert who can solve the
painkiller problems and you'realso probably uncovering more
meaty, meaningful problems,things that you can build, you
(06:49):
know, more complex, longerduration, high value engagements
around for both you and yourclient.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
So absolutely the.
In a sales context, experts arebringing clarity to this
situation.
They're doing that by nottaking the buyer at face value
and sometimes challenging thebuyer a bit.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
Yeah, absolutely.
Well, let's peel back the oniona bit now and talk a little bit
about the stages of how youlead these powerful sales
conversations, starting withAlign.
Do you want to tell us a littlebit about what Align is?
Speaker 2 (07:23):
Yeah, align is A-A-L-I-G-N and it's a six-step
framework that I have founduseful for just about any
business owner over the last sixyears that I've been doing this
work.
It's a device to know where youare in any given sales
conversation and quite simply,it breaks down to you're going
(07:46):
to set an agenda, you're goingto ask questions, you're going
to look deeper, you're going toinspire the buyer, you're going
to be sure to get feedback andyou're always going to plan
those next steps on the call.
If you have that alignedframework in mind, I still have
it right up here on my desk.
I don't care how long you havebeen doing sales.
Having that framework and justknowing these are the beats I
(08:10):
have to hit on any salesinteraction call.
Just about it can really make adifference, because I don't know
about you, sam, but here's whatI see a lot, especially folks
who are experts and now they'rein consulting.
They're selling their services.
I'll include myself in it.
We get really excited and wewant to share all of our
(08:30):
expertise.
We want to tell our stories.
We want to let the buyer knowit's possible.
I see excitement get in the waymore than I see hesitancy or
nerves in a sales context and aline, if you think about it,
really starts off with centeringthe buyer, not ourselves.
We're asking questions, we'relooking deeper, we are not
(08:54):
starting off giving our lifestory or the history of our
business, and so I love havingthat little device right up on
my computer at all times toremind me to slow down, center
the buyer, pace myself.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
Beautiful and, if you want to just maybe unpack a
little further that acronym,what are some of the tips or
questions that you find mosthelpful for your clients and
also in your own work andhelping to create that space for
the prospective client?
Speaker 2 (09:25):
Yeah, there's a couple of you know, here's the
thing about a line it's alwaysrelevant and there are different
pieces and parts of it thatbecome even more important
depending on what's going on.
You know, as we sit hererecording this, sam, you know
for sure the economy is in someuncertainty, and it's been.
(09:48):
You know, I started my businessin 2020 or just before, and so
you know we've sort of been inthis place business in 2020 or
just before, and so you knowwe've sort of been in this place
and I want to highlight thevery first letter of a line,
which is agenda, which makes mewant to take a nap.
You know it doesn't.
And also, like you know, we arefully fledged adults, like, yes,
we do wayfaring, we setexpectations on the top of a
(10:09):
call or you know, but it's soimportant there was a book that
came out in 2023.
It's the guys I don't know.
Sam, if you ever in your youknow, in your career, read the
challenger sale.
Oh yeah, Ted McKenna and MattDixon Right, they came out with
a book in 2023.
That kind of like blew my mindand that you should read the
book.
(10:29):
But, like a major premise thereis that when you're selling B2B
, your biggest stumbling blockright now is I'm going to say it
slow because it's a mouthful,buyer indecision due to fear of
making a mistake and it's a coolnerd out read because there's,
(10:50):
you know they go into the sortof the science and research
behind it, but basically itboils down to buyers right now
would prefer to feel the pain ofnot making a move than making
the wrong move.
And what does that mean?
And what does it have to dowith an agenda?
Well, it's always been truethat we need to make buyers feel
(11:14):
safe, but it's never been moretrue than now.
And a little action likesetting the expectation of
what's going to happen on thecall and how the call is going
to end and what happens next.
It signals to the buyer thatyou're the adult in the room,
(11:37):
and what I mean by that is theycan trust you.
You actually know, because youare the expert, what should be
talked about on this first callor this second call, and you do
that.
You watch your buyer'sshoulders relax.
The more senior the leader, themore on their plate, the more
(11:57):
they're really going toappreciate that.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
Those words are just hitting home and I could not
agree more.
It's a simple thing that youcan do and, by God, it really
just changes the tone of theconversation and gets you into
that partnership space fromsquare one.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
Absolutely, and it's not.
And I want to be clear, right,you know it's not a power move.
Like I'm in charge of this,call it's so kind yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:27):
Yeah, you know.
I think the second thing that Iwould point out here is, you
know the asking questions.
Okay, well, what does that mean?
I love to.
I know when I'm in with IndieCollective folks, I share this
stat.
It's, I think it's from theAssociation of Inside
Salespeople or something, butthey say the best salespeople
(12:48):
ask between 11 and 14 questionsper call.
And you know, if you're notBarbara Walters, how are you
getting 14 questions in?
And you know it's like that's alot of questions.
But I think one of the pieces ofa line that I, that I teach and
that we share with IndieCollective folks is this idea
you already said it earlier inthe call of peeling the onion,
(13:08):
and this is how we show up as anexpert.
You know somebody says I need anew website and you don't just
say, okay, great, how many pages?
Peeling the onion is that actof saying tell me more about
that.
Why is now a good time for awebsite?
What are you seeing that youthink could be improved by that?
(13:36):
I want you to see how manyfollow-up questions you can ask
when a potential buyer makes astatement about what they need,
because you win as an expert andin this market, when people are
hesitant, when you go deep, notwide, the amount of information
you cram into a 30-minuteinitial connection call to see
if y'all want to dance togetherthat's not what wins.
(13:59):
Pitching your company and allyour value proposition isn't
what wins in these bigger B2B.
You know complex salesconversations anyway.
It's go deep.
These people are afraid to makemoves or they are overwhelmed.
They are looking for partners.
They are looking for someonethey can count on, and so if you
ask three or four follow upquestions to the major
(14:22):
statements they make, you aresignaling how deeply you think,
how you work, how thoughtful youare without having to say no
let me tell you about my companyand how thoughtful I am and how
deep I think, like you'rereally exhibiting it.
So that'll be the second pieceof a line I think in this moment
to pull out.
And if I haven't said it, letme tell you what I say to every
(14:43):
single client.
If that buyer is so engagedwith you, they've given you 30
minutes, but you're askingfollow-up questions and they're
following your lead and they'reshaking their head and they're
saying things like yeah, goodpoint.
Oh, I never thought about itlike that.
Forget the rest of your agenda.
If you run out of time but yourbuyer is reacting to you that
(15:06):
way, they will give you moretime.
But, sam, you've been on thebuying end for some of these.
You have helped companies makevery big investments.
Do you agree with that?
Speaker 1 (15:18):
Yeah, totally, totally agree, and I think in
this environment more so thanever, when buyers B2B buyers,
business to business, decisionmaker buyers are very tentative
about deploying tight budgetsfor fear of making wrong
decisions, I think the agendaand asking the right questions
(15:40):
so you narrow in on those mostpainful, top of mind, acute
problems, the ones that even intough economic environments will
have a budget and not justtreasure but also time that will
be willing to be spentimmediately to solve them right.
So asking the right questionsand peeling back that onion to
(16:02):
narrow in on the right painfulproblems or the right, you know,
huge opportunities to seize, isreally where you need to live
in that initial conversation andI think you know knowing well
the rest of that acronym right.
So we've talked about the twoA's of agenda and asking
questions.
The next letters listen, l,inspire, I, g get feedback and
(16:27):
and N get next steps.
Not surprisingly, those lettersflow nicely from those smart
questions that get you focusedon those most painful problems,
because then, with clarity ofproblem that you can solve as an
expert, you're able to sharethe right stories, right Stories
that are going to hit homeemotionally and logically and
(16:49):
establish your expertise.
Your expertise You're alsobeing able to get feedback, to
make sure that you've capturedin their words, in their
language, in their numbers, intheir feelings, what that
problem is like, so that you canput that back to them in your
proposal and, of course, totheir organization if you need
(17:10):
to build consensus around makingthat investment and tackling
the problem together.
So I just couldn't agree morewith this framework.
Speaker 2 (17:16):
Yeah, 100%.
And I'll call out something yousaid that's so important.
Notice the I is inspire andwhat, and nowhere in the acronym
and nowhere in what you justsaid is the word pitch right.
Of course we have to talk aboutourselves, but if this isn't,
especially if this is a firstcall, this is sort of a
connection or qualification, oreven your first discovery call.
(17:38):
If it's going to be a longersales cycle, tell your stories,
share insights.
You know, be anecdotal, a pitchis sort of lackluster, so I
wanted to call that out.
You say stories and I couldn'tagree with you more.
Speaker 1 (17:55):
Yes, yeah, totally Ditch the pitch.
I mean you've probably heardthat before, but I know we both
believe in it and peopleremember stories.
So people should start there,because that's what's going to
capture hearts and minds and 60%of that B2B buying decision is
very emotional.
So starting there is a powerfulplace to start.
Speaker 2 (18:16):
Yeah, jill Conrath says she's a fabulous thought
leader around sales and haswritten many books, snap Selling
being a really good one.
And in that book, I believe,she says would your buyer have
paid you $500 for thatexperience?
And it's not that we're givingaway trade secrets or doing work
for free.
What she means is did you bringthem a better sense of clarity
(18:38):
in that call?
Did it feel valuable?
Not a sales pitch?
So I always.
That is my golden rule, frankly.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
Totally, totally.
So now, once you've had thatinitial powerful sales
conversation and you've probablybegun to establish trust, so
the rapport and credibility youmay have an eager prospective
client on the other end and theymight jump right into great.
Send me a proposal, allison.
(19:09):
Why pump the brakes?
Speaker 2 (19:11):
And what are the?
Speaker 1 (19:12):
things that you need to make sure you know, as a
expert consultant or coach, asit relates to your client and
the problem you're tackling, sothat you can send a winning
proposal when the time is right.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
Yeah, I love this question and, sam, I've lost
track of how many years I'vebeen working with you in Indie
Collective.
But this question and theadvice that I give is, hands
down, the feedback I get thatIndie Collective folks put into
action.
It's easy to put into actionand it gets them immediate
(19:46):
results.
And so I love this question.
Nine out of 10 subject matterexpert founders, consultants I
talk to are sending proposalstoo soon, without all of the
information that they need tomake that proposal possible,
plausible, apt to get over thefinish line.
So the reason to slow down isto make sure that your proposals
(20:11):
are actually confirmations, notthought starters.
Alan Weiss, who wrote MillionDollar Consulting that was the
first time I ever really heardit where it made sense.
Right, because most B2B salesprocesses, even with seasoned
salespeople I'm reallyembarrassed to tell you how many
years ago I started doing, youknow, slowing things down.
(20:33):
It was too late.
It's one or two maybe highenergy meetings and everybody's
excited and they're like we'regoing to buy this and you're
like, yay, they're going to buythis.
And they say, could you writethis up and send us a proposal?
And you're thinking, pop thechampagne.
And you spend two hours or twodays or two freaking weeks
working on this proposal.
You send it over and then youknow what happens.
(20:55):
What happens?
You get ghosted, ghosted, andthere's a lot we could get into,
and you know I love to talkabout this.
But here's the bottom line, muchto the chagrin of deeply
passionate subject matterexperts who just want to help.
It is not you, your knowledgeor whether or not your buyer
(21:19):
thinks you can do the job thatmakes or breaks the sale.
It is whether or not your buyeror the organization you are
selling to can overcome all ofthe internal hurdles and BS that
they're going to face to keepthat problem and your solution a
priority and get the internalbuy-in commitment and get your
(21:44):
proposal over the finish line toa contract.
It's a bummer, right, becausewe're like.
We spend so much time worryingabout how we come off, what we
say, how polished our proposalis, how good our deck looks, and
it does matter.
But if you are not slowing downand giving enough time to ask
(22:04):
one simple question, you'regoing to get in trouble, and
that question is awesome.
So, yes, I absolutely want tosend you a proposal, but let me
ask you a question what's goingto get in the way of you getting
the support you need and ifyou're having one call whether
it's 30 minutes, 45, 60 minutesand then going off and write a
proposal, I highly doubt you'vehad enough time to probe in that
(22:27):
area and you're really justyou're just wishing and hoping
that that's going to comethrough.
Speaker 1 (22:33):
Yeah, couldn't agree more.
So tell us a little bit.
I know, I know I'm jumping thegun here, but tell us what a
fingerprints meeting looks likeand how you get that level of
information.
So you know we're ready to sendthat proposal and get it to a
finish line moment.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
Yeah, I know people listening are thinking how would
I put more time into this?
Because, just like you said,sam, you know you have one great
meeting, high energy, and guesswhat?
Your buyer doesn't know how torun a good sales process either.
You know it's.
They don't know that there's abetter way and they're excited
and the only thing they know todo is ask you to write it up and
(23:11):
send it.
And so we're compliant, we saysure.
Well, what you want to do is putin another touch point.
I call it a fingerprintsmeeting because the point of
that meeting is going to be toget their fingerprints on your
thought starters or yourproposals.
You're going to finish ittogether.
(23:32):
You're going to make it aconfirmation where you're going
to get to go through on thismeeting.
I'll tell you how to ask for itin a second.
But what's the agenda of afingerprints meeting?
What am I doing if I getanother 30 to 60 minutes or
whatever it is?
The agenda is play back whatyou heard.
I want to make sure Iunderstood everything in our
discovery call, that Iunderstood the assignment and
(23:56):
that we didn't leave anythingout.
That's another chance, by theway, for you to ask more
questions.
Get in deeper, figure out whereis that urgency?
How much of a priority is this?
You're going to play back whatthey heard.
Then you're going to show themyour now be careful here.
You don't want to take thempoint by point through a
(24:16):
proposal because that isn'tmeeting.
That could have been an email,right, and there's a little
nuance with everybody here whatthis looks like.
But you're going to show thempieces or parts or building
blocks of that proposal.
You're going to show them yourthoughts starters.
You're going to walk themthrough your ideas about how you
would solve it and you're goingto get their rigorous feedback
(24:37):
on how that would work in theirorganization or not, and things
that we really ought to confirmbefore we send it over.
We call it there's anotheracronym for you keeping tabs
T-A-B-S.
We are going to ask and probearound what might get in the way
around the timeline of this, aauthority, who are all the
(25:02):
decision makers in this, if youhaven't had a chance to ask?
But it's not just decisionmakers, is it?
It's naysayers and influencersand ERGs, and people might be
pushing back on you.
And you know right?
Um, uh be budget.
My goodness gracious, do notsend a proposal, do not even
make a proposal until you knowwhat they will bear for
(25:27):
investment.
You may as well just go sit ona beach all day, you don't know.
I mean, come on.
And lastly, that S on tabs ifwe're keeping track at home is
strategy to contract.
I always give away my age, butif anybody remembers Schoolhouse
Rocks in the 70s, 80s how aBill becomes a law, you want to
ask your buyer.
So I'm so glad we're both.
(25:48):
We both seem very excited aboutthis.
For sure, once we get off thiscall, what do you, what do you
need to do with this proposal?
What are all the hoops it hasto go through?
Is that going to be easy foryou?
Is that going to be challenging?
Is there anything I could do toease that for you?
Do you want me to come presentit with you to the board?
Do you want me to talk to theinvestor?
Do you you know?
(26:09):
So you really want to see.
How might I influence this?
So that's what a fingerprintsmeeting is.
When they leave, they feelgalvanized because why, what do
people like Our own ideas?
So you get their fingerprintson it.
They are going to feel enrolledin that, they're going to feel
ownership over that and thenthey're going to be willing to
(26:29):
do what?
Stick their neck out and take achance, which ted mckenna and
matt dixon are telling usthey're not really that apt and
willing to do.
Speaker 1 (26:39):
Yeah, that, fingerprints, meeting a little
more time, it's going to getthem there yes and and, as we in
this economic environment,really in any economic
environment, this meeting couldnot be more important because if
your key decision maker, ifthat person who's going to need
to help you to navigate theinternal procurement process,
(26:59):
the internal consensus building,doesn't feel like their
fingerprints are on it, there'sabsolutely no way they're going
to get into a three-legged racewith you, right?
How about that visual?
Speaker 2 (27:11):
How about that visual ?
Speaker 1 (27:14):
Yes, because once you're the outside expert,
consultants or coach, when itgets into the procurement
process, when it gets into theconsensus internal, you're not
going to be in thoseconversations unless they bring
you into those and you're notgoing to be able to enable that
decision maker unless you arebound together in that
three-legged race.
Speaker 2 (27:32):
Yes, and you can be.
You know, you got to knowthyself, know thy buyer, but you
know some really heavy hittingsalespeople do there's a couple
of names for it, but mutualaction plan or a map.
In those meetings you canliterally write like a project
plan after today.
Here I'm going to do thesethings, I'm going to finalize
(27:53):
the proposal with your feedback.
I'm going to send it to you.
You're going to go do this andthat and procurement and this
and that, and you two workingoff a project plan together.
You are literally partners in athree-legged race, right?
As opposed to what's thealternative, a relay race.
We're passing a baton of paperback and forth and there's no
skin in the game from thatperson.
Speaker 1 (28:13):
Yeah, Totally, and I've used maps in certain sales
processes, particularly largerenterprise ones and in smaller
organizations, where it's lesscomplicated and you feel pretty
tightly aligned with thatdecision maker.
You might not need one, butthat's a super helpful tool,
especially if you're looking ata longer sales cycle, more
stakeholders that need to benavigated and consensus that
(28:34):
needs to be built, orprocurement's a part of the
process and that layersadditional complexity.
So it all comes down to kind ofhow complex, how tightly
aligned you are with your buyerSuper, super helpful.
So we've talked about aligned.
We've talked about getting yourfingerprints meeting in place
so that you're clear on thepainful problems.
You've scoped out, with theirinput and buy-in, what those
(28:58):
solutions are going to look like.
You've confirmed that there's abudget there and that it aligns
to the expectations.
Firm that there's a budgetthere and that it aligns to the
expectations.
Tell me a little bit, alison,now that we've done this upfront
work.
What does that proposal looklike and what do you put into
your proposals so that you getvalue on the other side of them?
Speaker 2 (29:18):
Yeah, the first thing I want to say is my proposals
look like what I have agreedwith my buyer or champion.
It should look like that's thebottom line, right?
Because if they have to go getbuy-in and enrollment by
(29:42):
committee right internally, theymight suggest to me that I put
in more case studies or leadwith data.
They might, you know, they'regoing to let me know what are
the tools they need.
So I want to be sure to saythat.
Right, but in any proposaltemplate there's a few things
(30:02):
you know.
Look just about any proposaloff the internet.
You rip off and you make ityour own as an expert.
You're going to be okay, I'mnot going to toil over this.
But there's a few key thingsthat I want to make sure
everybody has or does or doesn'tdo.
The first thing is it does notstart with you.
It drives me absolutely nuts toopen a proposal and see the
(30:27):
first five slides to be allabout me, the vendor.
You know me, the partner.
Here's our story.
Here's our differentiators.
Here's the.
Here's the NASCAR slide.
You know that one, all thelogos that you've ever worked
with.
It has a place, but it's in theappendix.
It just truly is.
(30:48):
We always want to be centeringthe customer, and so the first
thing that my proposals and allof my clients' proposals start
with is that reflection of thecurrent state.
Use your flavor.
I work with small businessowners.
I say what I heard because Ican be a little informal If
you're doing a big seven figure.
That's an executive summary.
(31:09):
This is the current state thatI believe you are in Now.
Why am I doing that if I haveactually elongated my sales
process?
So, to make sure we're on thesame page, it's not for my buyer
, it's for who else is going toread that proposal, right?
It's not for my buyer, it's forwho else is going to read that
proposal, right?
Right, because if we have toagree, you know, by committee,
(31:30):
then the first thing we have toagree on is what the problem is
and what is at stake if we don'tsolve it.
So that's that executivesummary.
Speaking of, you talked aboutthe gap when am I today and
where do I want to go?
So if I'm saying here's whereyou are today, then I'm going to
paint a picture of what'spossible, right, the value
proposition of what you'rehoping to achieve.
(31:51):
And, sam, look, indieCollective has hands down the
best content about value-basedpricing.
I have taken that myself twice.
Like you know, it's really goodand that is what gets you to
that value-based pricing.
Really painting a picture forsomeone.
Here's where you are, here'swhere you want to go.
(32:11):
This is the work you need to doso that you can achieve.
And if they buy that, buy intothat idea, then your pricing
gets to be a certain percentageof that.
That is as easy as it is.
And the last tip listen.
And then you're going to gointo what you're going to do and
you're going to do.
You know it's like, and thebudget and the pricing and the
(32:32):
things, and you know all thatthat a proposal would have.
The other hot take I have foryou is the following so, sam, I
don't know in your proposals orthings that you've done, but
most proposals have a timeline.
You know, and that's smartbecause they've said we'd like
(32:53):
to kick off by this date and youwant to be sure that you kick
off by that date.
So you put it in there.
That makes sense.
Fine, the better version ofthat is that your timeline in
your proposal starts the day yousend the proposal.
It's almost a little bit ofthat map, that mutual action
plan we were talking about.
Is it always appropriate?
Maybe not, but it is most ofthe time.
Start today.
(33:14):
Understand what is going tohappen between now and when we
sign the contract, or whatprocurement looks like.
Map it all out why?
Because it holds themaccountable to that for sure.
But also you are steppingforward and saying I am more
than a vendor, I am not justtrying to get this money and get
to this kickoff.
I understand the jobs on yourplate to do.
(33:37):
I'm acknowledging them and yourjobs are my jobs and I think
it's so powerful to do that.
Speaker 1 (33:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:45):
I love that.
Yeah, not always appropriate tokind of send a proposal with
day one being the day you shipit.
However, if you've done thissales process, you've done your
align, you've done yourfingerprints, you've really
gotten into that three-leggedrace with your decision maker, I
think it is appropriate and, bythe way, that executive summary
(34:05):
is going to show just how muchyou know and the proposal is
going to capture just how muchvalue you can create by diving
headfirst and getting going ASAPwith the project.
So, I think, absolutelyappropriate.
If you're following thismethodology Cool, amazing.
Well, folks, if you've stayedwith us this long, hopefully you
(34:25):
can see that there is a betterway Racing through sales
conversations and grasping atshort straws, sending smallish
proposals that solve smallishproblems.
It's not how, frankly, expertsshould be leading their sales
conversations.
And when you follow thismethodology, when you create
(34:46):
space to align and I think themost important thing in that
space is making sure you askenough of the right questions.
Let people not just tell youwhat's top of mind.
Let them, through the rightquestions, get to the most meaty
, meaningful problems, thethings that they will be
prepared to invest both time andtreasure on, no matter the
(35:09):
economic environment, and thenmake sure, before you ever send
a proposal, that you are in thatthree-legged race.
I cannot underscore that enoughand I know Alison agrees.
If you're not in a three-leggedrace in this economic
environment, good luck gettingto the other side of procurement
, getting the other side ofstarting that contract or
getting to the other side ofreally great results, because
(35:32):
that three-legged race doesn'tjust carry you to the start line
, it carries you to the finishline and, of course, to a
powerful referral partner on theback of it.
So, allison, thank you so muchfor joining us today.
I just love having you as partof our community and always
appreciate you sharing yourwisdom with our members and all
of our listeners.
Speaker 2 (35:51):
Thank you so much, sam.
I always love mixing it up withyou and you're so gracious
because you know what.
You're a really goodsalesperson, always great to
talk with you.
Speaker 1 (36:03):
Absolutely.
Thank you, Allison.
Welcome to the Modern Independent, a podcast
dedicated to inspiring,equipping and empowering top
independent workers tosupercharge their careers and
build more balanced lives.
As you probably already know,we have three flavors of the
Modern Independent, and todayyou're joining us for an episode
of the Seven-Figure Playbook, aseries where I, sam Lee, the
(00:21):
founder and CEO of IndieCollective, interview
distinguished independentbusiness builders, folks who are
here to share with you thepractical playbooks that have
helped them to build moresuccessful businesses while
living their own balanced lives.
Today, I am super pumped to bejoined by a dear friend and an
expert guide at Indie Collective, allison Davis.
(00:42):
Allison is a commercial leaderand a company builder, someone
with more than two decades ofsales experience, selling five,
six and seven figure B2B deals,as well as training founders and
their teams to grow theirservice-based businesses.
Today, allison and I are goingto talk about how to powerfully
lead sales conversations andalso how to send value-based
(01:05):
proposals, proposals that willhave you consistently charging
your worth rather than gettingnegotiated out of it at the
finish line.
Having personally coachedhundreds of top consultants, I
found that most make a bigmistake when it comes to sales,
namely when they're too eager towin new business and just get
started.
They race to the sales finishline, grasping at short straws
(01:29):
and ultimately pitching smallishproposals that solve smallish
problems for smallish value andreturn, and that, simply put, is
not what an expert like youshould be doing, and that's
certainly not what IndieCollective members do.
And that's because, through our10-week bootcamp, allison
trains our members to powerfullylead sales conversations like a
(01:54):
real expert.
In today's episode, allison andI are going to unpack what it
looks and feels like to show uplike an expert, because when you
do that in sales conversations,it's going to mean big things
for your bottom line.
We'll also get into specifictips and steps that you can take
today to shift into powerfullyleading sales conversations.
(02:15):
And then, last but not least,we'll talk through how you can
shift from leading thosepowerful sales conversations to
sending value-based proposals,ones that will have you growing
your average contract value andensuring that you always charge
your worth.
So, with that, let's get intoit.
Allison, thanks so much forjoining us.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
Thanks so much for having me, sam.
What a nice introduction.
And, even more than that, thankyou so much for having me part
of the Indie Collectivecommunity.
It's such a great place to be.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
Oh my gosh, my absolute pleasure.
Well, let's start with thebottom line up front At this
point.
You've helped hundreds of ourmembers, consultants and coaches
to develop their salessuperpowers.
Before we get into the how youdo that, I'd love to start with
(03:06):
a little bit of a conversationaround why it is so important
for consultants and coaches toshow up like an expert.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Yeah, yeah, that little thing I like to call
vendor syndrome, and if you'resuffering from it, we need to
shift and I really appreciateyou starting here, because it
really does start with themindset and the intention of how
you want to show up.
When I work with clients, wetalk about what is the
(03:37):
difference between showing uplike a vendor, which is very
transactional and has a placefor sure, versus showing up in
your expertise, which is nottransactional.
It's helping people betransformational.
You know the people I work with.
They sell consulting andservices that solve often really
(04:01):
complex problems and they'reable to do that because they are
experts.
They spent time in corporate orin the workforce doing this
thing or buying this thing.
In some cases they understandit deeply and it's a shame when
they show up like they'reselling printer paper Nothing
(04:23):
wrong with that, but you don'thave to be an expert.
I mean maybe a little bit ofexpertise in paper.
When they show up like they'reselling print printer paper,
nothing wrong with that, but youdon't have to be an ex.
I mean maybe a little bit ofexpertise in in you know in in
paper, but like you know what Imean, you don't have to be an
expert about how a company uh,you know functions to sell
widgets, um and so when you showup uh, when I'm seeing my
(04:44):
subject matter experts show upas vendors, it kind of looks
like them showing up and sayingit's so nice to meet you, I'm so
glad Sam introduced us, tell meabout your problem.
And that buyer gives them anarrow problem and they're
seeking a narrow solution.
We need a new website.
And if you're showing up as avendor like, let's say, you're a
(05:05):
marketing agency or a brandingagency and someone says I need a
new website, I hear you're thebest.
If you're showing up as avendor, you're doing exactly
what you said, sam, earlier,which is getting to the finish
line with that easy grab saleASAP and thinking, well, I'll
sell them what they need later.
But an expert subject matterexpert, someone who's really
(05:27):
showing up in that role, issaying in their heads they're
saying, well, you need a newbrand and logo before you do
that website.
It's like they're really seeinga million things that that
buyer isn't and instead of justsaying yes, thank you so much,
that'll be 50 grand, and signthe contract and your new
website will be up in two months, they're saying, interesting,
(05:48):
tell me why now's a good timefor a new website.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
How do you?
Speaker 2 (05:53):
know what's working, what's not working Right, and
they're not taking that buyer atface value.
Rather, they're leading themand bringing clarity to the
greater need at hand.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
Great and we're going to get into some of these
specific questions andapproaches you can take to
really make the most out of thatconversation.
But what I'm hearing already isthat, through holding space for
this prospective client, you'rehelping them, with the right
questions and conversation, tofeel the gap, to feel the bigger
(06:28):
problem at hand and maybe thereare multiple or multifaceted
things at hand and in doing that, you're going to help them to
be primed to work with you as anexpert who can solve the
painkiller problems and you'realso probably uncovering more
meaty, meaningful problems,things that you can build, you
(06:49):
know, more complex, longerduration, high value engagements
around for both you and yourclient.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
So absolutely the.
In a sales context, experts arebringing clarity to this
situation.
They're doing that by nottaking the buyer at face value
and sometimes challenging thebuyer a bit.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
Yeah, absolutely.
Well, let's peel back the oniona bit now and talk a little bit
about the stages of how youlead these powerful sales
conversations, starting withAlign.
Do you want to tell us a littlebit about what Align is?
Speaker 2 (07:23):
Yeah, align is A-A-L-I-G-N and it's a six-step
framework that I have founduseful for just about any
business owner over the last sixyears that I've been doing this
work.
It's a device to know where youare in any given sales
conversation and quite simply,it breaks down to you're going
(07:46):
to set an agenda, you're goingto ask questions, you're going
to look deeper, you're going toinspire the buyer, you're going
to be sure to get feedback andyou're always going to plan
those next steps on the call.
If you have that alignedframework in mind, I still have
it right up here on my desk.
I don't care how long you havebeen doing sales.
Having that framework and justknowing these are the beats I
(08:10):
have to hit on any salesinteraction call.
Just about it can really make adifference, because I don't know
about you, sam, but here's whatI see a lot, especially folks
who are experts and now they'rein consulting.
They're selling their services.
I'll include myself in it.
We get really excited and wewant to share all of our
(08:30):
expertise.
We want to tell our stories.
We want to let the buyer knowit's possible.
I see excitement get in the waymore than I see hesitancy or
nerves in a sales context and aline, if you think about it,
really starts off with centeringthe buyer, not ourselves.
We're asking questions, we'relooking deeper, we are not
(08:54):
starting off giving our lifestory or the history of our
business, and so I love havingthat little device right up on
my computer at all times toremind me to slow down, center
the buyer, pace myself.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
Beautiful and, if you want to just maybe unpack a
little further that acronym,what are some of the tips or
questions that you find mosthelpful for your clients and
also in your own work andhelping to create that space for
the prospective client?
Speaker 2 (09:25):
Yeah, there's a couple of you know, here's the
thing about a line it's alwaysrelevant and there are different
pieces and parts of it thatbecome even more important
depending on what's going on.
You know, as we sit hererecording this, sam, you know
for sure the economy is in someuncertainty, and it's been.
(09:48):
You know, I started my businessin 2020 or just before, and so
you know we've sort of been inthis place business in 2020 or
just before, and so you knowwe've sort of been in this place
and I want to highlight thevery first letter of a line,
which is agenda, which makes mewant to take a nap.
You know it doesn't.
And also, like you know, we arefully fledged adults, like, yes,
we do wayfaring, we setexpectations on the top of a
(10:09):
call or you know, but it's soimportant there was a book that
came out in 2023.
It's the guys I don't know.
Sam, if you ever in your youknow, in your career, read the
challenger sale.
Oh yeah, Ted McKenna and MattDixon Right, they came out with
a book in 2023.
That kind of like blew my mindand that you should read the
book.
(10:29):
But, like a major premise thereis that when you're selling B2B
, your biggest stumbling blockright now is I'm going to say it
slow because it's a mouthful,buyer indecision due to fear of
making a mistake and it's a coolnerd out read because there's,
(10:50):
you know they go into the sortof the science and research
behind it, but basically itboils down to buyers right now
would prefer to feel the pain ofnot making a move than making
the wrong move.
And what does that mean?
And what does it have to dowith an agenda?
Well, it's always been truethat we need to make buyers feel
(11:14):
safe, but it's never been moretrue than now.
And a little action likesetting the expectation of
what's going to happen on thecall and how the call is going
to end and what happens next.
It signals to the buyer thatyou're the adult in the room,
(11:37):
and what I mean by that is theycan trust you.
You actually know, because youare the expert, what should be
talked about on this first callor this second call, and you do
that.
You watch your buyer'sshoulders relax.
The more senior the leader, themore on their plate, the more
(11:57):
they're really going toappreciate that.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
Those words are just hitting home and I could not
agree more.
It's a simple thing that youcan do and, by God, it really
just changes the tone of theconversation and gets you into
that partnership space fromsquare one.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
Absolutely, and it's not.
And I want to be clear, right,you know it's not a power move.
Like I'm in charge of this,call it's so kind yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:27):
Yeah, you know.
I think the second thing that Iwould point out here is, you
know the asking questions.
Okay, well, what does that mean?
I love to.
I know when I'm in with IndieCollective folks, I share this
stat.
It's, I think it's from theAssociation of Inside
Salespeople or something, butthey say the best salespeople
(12:48):
ask between 11 and 14 questionsper call.
And you know, if you're notBarbara Walters, how are you
getting 14 questions in?
And you know it's like that's alot of questions.
But I think one of the pieces ofa line that I, that I teach and
that we share with IndieCollective folks is this idea
you already said it earlier inthe call of peeling the onion,
(13:08):
and this is how we show up as anexpert.
You know somebody says I need anew website and you don't just
say, okay, great, how many pages?
Peeling the onion is that actof saying tell me more about
that.
Why is now a good time for awebsite?
What are you seeing that youthink could be improved by that?
(13:36):
I want you to see how manyfollow-up questions you can ask
when a potential buyer makes astatement about what they need,
because you win as an expert andin this market, when people are
hesitant, when you go deep, notwide, the amount of information
you cram into a 30-minuteinitial connection call to see
if y'all want to dance togetherthat's not what wins.
(13:59):
Pitching your company and allyour value proposition isn't
what wins in these bigger B2B.
You know complex salesconversations anyway.
It's go deep.
These people are afraid to makemoves or they are overwhelmed.
They are looking for partners.
They are looking for someonethey can count on, and so if you
ask three or four follow upquestions to the major
(14:22):
statements they make, you aresignaling how deeply you think,
how you work, how thoughtful youare without having to say no
let me tell you about my companyand how thoughtful I am and how
deep I think, like you'rereally exhibiting it.
So that'll be the second pieceof a line I think in this moment
to pull out.
And if I haven't said it, letme tell you what I say to every
(14:43):
single client.
If that buyer is so engagedwith you, they've given you 30
minutes, but you're askingfollow-up questions and they're
following your lead and they'reshaking their head and they're
saying things like yeah, goodpoint.
Oh, I never thought about itlike that.
Forget the rest of your agenda.
If you run out of time but yourbuyer is reacting to you that
(15:06):
way, they will give you moretime.
But, sam, you've been on thebuying end for some of these.
You have helped companies makevery big investments.
Do you agree with that?
Speaker 1 (15:18):
Yeah, totally, totally agree, and I think in
this environment more so thanever, when buyers B2B buyers,
business to business, decisionmaker buyers are very tentative
about deploying tight budgetsfor fear of making wrong
decisions, I think the agendaand asking the right questions
(15:40):
so you narrow in on those mostpainful, top of mind, acute
problems, the ones that even intough economic environments will
have a budget and not justtreasure but also time that will
be willing to be spentimmediately to solve them right.
So asking the right questionsand peeling back that onion to
(16:02):
narrow in on the right painfulproblems or the right, you know,
huge opportunities to seize, isreally where you need to live
in that initial conversation andI think you know knowing well
the rest of that acronym right.
So we've talked about the twoA's of agenda and asking
questions.
The next letters listen, l,inspire, I, g get feedback and
(16:27):
and N get next steps.
Not surprisingly, those lettersflow nicely from those smart
questions that get you focusedon those most painful problems,
because then, with clarity ofproblem that you can solve as an
expert, you're able to sharethe right stories, right Stories
that are going to hit homeemotionally and logically and
(16:49):
establish your expertise.
Your expertise You're alsobeing able to get feedback, to
make sure that you've capturedin their words, in their
language, in their numbers, intheir feelings, what that
problem is like, so that you canput that back to them in your
proposal and, of course, totheir organization if you need
(17:10):
to build consensus around makingthat investment and tackling
the problem together.
So I just couldn't agree morewith this framework.
Speaker 2 (17:16):
Yeah, 100%.
And I'll call out something yousaid that's so important.
Notice the I is inspire andwhat, and nowhere in the acronym
and nowhere in what you justsaid is the word pitch right.
Of course we have to talk aboutourselves, but if this isn't,
especially if this is a firstcall, this is sort of a
connection or qualification, oreven your first discovery call.
(17:38):
If it's going to be a longersales cycle, tell your stories,
share insights.
You know, be anecdotal, a pitchis sort of lackluster, so I
wanted to call that out.
You say stories and I couldn'tagree with you more.
Speaker 1 (17:55):
Yes, yeah, totally Ditch the pitch.
I mean you've probably heardthat before, but I know we both
believe in it and peopleremember stories.
So people should start there,because that's what's going to
capture hearts and minds and 60%of that B2B buying decision is
very emotional.
So starting there is a powerfulplace to start.
Speaker 2 (18:16):
Yeah, jill Conrath says she's a fabulous thought
leader around sales and haswritten many books, snap Selling
being a really good one.
And in that book, I believe,she says would your buyer have
paid you $500 for thatexperience?
And it's not that we're givingaway trade secrets or doing work
for free.
What she means is did you bringthem a better sense of clarity
(18:38):
in that call?
Did it feel valuable?
Not a sales pitch?
So I always.
That is my golden rule, frankly.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
Totally, totally.
So now, once you've had thatinitial powerful sales
conversation and you've probablybegun to establish trust, so
the rapport and credibility youmay have an eager prospective
client on the other end and theymight jump right into great.
Send me a proposal, allison.
(19:09):
Why pump the brakes?
Speaker 2 (19:11):
And what are the?
Speaker 1 (19:12):
things that you need to make sure you know, as a
expert consultant or coach, asit relates to your client and
the problem you're tackling, sothat you can send a winning
proposal when the time is right.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
Yeah, I love this question and, sam, I've lost
track of how many years I'vebeen working with you in Indie
Collective.
But this question and theadvice that I give is, hands
down, the feedback I get thatIndie Collective folks put into
action.
It's easy to put into actionand it gets them immediate
(19:46):
results.
And so I love this question.
Nine out of 10 subject matterexpert founders, consultants I
talk to are sending proposalstoo soon, without all of the
information that they need tomake that proposal possible,
plausible, apt to get over thefinish line.
So the reason to slow down isto make sure that your proposals
(20:11):
are actually confirmations, notthought starters.
Alan Weiss, who wrote MillionDollar Consulting that was the
first time I ever really heardit where it made sense.
Right, because most B2B salesprocesses, even with seasoned
salespeople I'm reallyembarrassed to tell you how many
years ago I started doing, youknow, slowing things down.
(20:33):
It was too late.
It's one or two maybe highenergy meetings and everybody's
excited and they're like we'regoing to buy this and you're
like, yay, they're going to buythis.
And they say, could you writethis up and send us a proposal?
And you're thinking, pop thechampagne.
And you spend two hours or twodays or two freaking weeks
working on this proposal.
You send it over and then youknow what happens.
(20:55):
What happens?
You get ghosted, ghosted, andthere's a lot we could get into,
and you know I love to talkabout this.
But here's the bottom line, muchto the chagrin of deeply
passionate subject matterexperts who just want to help.
It is not you, your knowledgeor whether or not your buyer
(21:19):
thinks you can do the job thatmakes or breaks the sale.
It is whether or not your buyeror the organization you are
selling to can overcome all ofthe internal hurdles and BS that
they're going to face to keepthat problem and your solution a
priority and get the internalbuy-in commitment and get your
(21:44):
proposal over the finish line toa contract.
It's a bummer, right, becausewe're like.
We spend so much time worryingabout how we come off, what we
say, how polished our proposalis, how good our deck looks, and
it does matter.
But if you are not slowing downand giving enough time to ask
(22:04):
one simple question, you'regoing to get in trouble, and
that question is awesome.
So, yes, I absolutely want tosend you a proposal, but let me
ask you a question what's goingto get in the way of you getting
the support you need and ifyou're having one call whether
it's 30 minutes, 45, 60 minutesand then going off and write a
proposal, I highly doubt you'vehad enough time to probe in that
(22:27):
area and you're really justyou're just wishing and hoping
that that's going to comethrough.
Speaker 1 (22:33):
Yeah, couldn't agree more.
So tell us a little bit.
I know, I know I'm jumping thegun here, but tell us what a
fingerprints meeting looks likeand how you get that level of
information.
So you know we're ready to sendthat proposal and get it to a
finish line moment.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
Yeah, I know people listening are thinking how would
I put more time into this?
Because, just like you said,sam, you know you have one great
meeting, high energy, and guesswhat?
Your buyer doesn't know how torun a good sales process either.
You know it's.
They don't know that there's abetter way and they're excited
and the only thing they know todo is ask you to write it up and
(23:11):
send it.
And so we're compliant, we saysure.
Well, what you want to do is putin another touch point.
I call it a fingerprintsmeeting because the point of
that meeting is going to be toget their fingerprints on your
thought starters or yourproposals.
You're going to finish ittogether.
(23:32):
You're going to make it aconfirmation where you're going
to get to go through on thismeeting.
I'll tell you how to ask for itin a second.
But what's the agenda of afingerprints meeting?
What am I doing if I getanother 30 to 60 minutes or
whatever it is?
The agenda is play back whatyou heard.
I want to make sure Iunderstood everything in our
discovery call, that Iunderstood the assignment and
(23:56):
that we didn't leave anythingout.
That's another chance, by theway, for you to ask more
questions.
Get in deeper, figure out whereis that urgency?
How much of a priority is this?
You're going to play back whatthey heard.
Then you're going to show themyour now be careful here.
You don't want to take thempoint by point through a
(24:16):
proposal because that isn'tmeeting.
That could have been an email,right, and there's a little
nuance with everybody here whatthis looks like.
But you're going to show thempieces or parts or building
blocks of that proposal.
You're going to show them yourthoughts starters.
You're going to walk themthrough your ideas about how you
would solve it and you're goingto get their rigorous feedback
(24:37):
on how that would work in theirorganization or not, and things
that we really ought to confirmbefore we send it over.
We call it there's anotheracronym for you keeping tabs
T-A-B-S.
We are going to ask and probearound what might get in the way
around the timeline of this, aauthority, who are all the
(25:02):
decision makers in this, if youhaven't had a chance to ask?
But it's not just decisionmakers, is it?
It's naysayers and influencersand ERGs, and people might be
pushing back on you.
And you know right?
Um, uh be budget.
My goodness gracious, do notsend a proposal, do not even
make a proposal until you knowwhat they will bear for
(25:27):
investment.
You may as well just go sit ona beach all day, you don't know.
I mean, come on.
And lastly, that S on tabs ifwe're keeping track at home is
strategy to contract.
I always give away my age, butif anybody remembers Schoolhouse
Rocks in the 70s, 80s how aBill becomes a law, you want to
ask your buyer.
So I'm so glad we're both.
(25:48):
We both seem very excited aboutthis.
For sure, once we get off thiscall, what do you, what do you
need to do with this proposal?
What are all the hoops it hasto go through?
Is that going to be easy foryou?
Is that going to be challenging?
Is there anything I could do toease that for you?
Do you want me to come presentit with you to the board?
Do you want me to talk to theinvestor?
Do you you know?
(26:09):
So you really want to see.
How might I influence this?
So that's what a fingerprintsmeeting is.
When they leave, they feelgalvanized because why, what do
people like Our own ideas?
So you get their fingerprintson it.
They are going to feel enrolledin that, they're going to feel
ownership over that and thenthey're going to be willing to
(26:29):
do what?
Stick their neck out and take achance, which ted mckenna and
matt dixon are telling usthey're not really that apt and
willing to do.
Speaker 1 (26:39):
Yeah, that, fingerprints, meeting a little
more time, it's going to getthem there yes and and, as we in
this economic environment,really in any economic
environment, this meeting couldnot be more important because if
your key decision maker, ifthat person who's going to need
to help you to navigate theinternal procurement process,
(26:59):
the internal consensus building,doesn't feel like their
fingerprints are on it, there'sabsolutely no way they're going
to get into a three-legged racewith you, right?
How about that visual?
Speaker 2 (27:11):
How about that visual ?
Speaker 1 (27:14):
Yes, because once you're the outside expert,
consultants or coach, when itgets into the procurement
process, when it gets into theconsensus internal, you're not
going to be in thoseconversations unless they bring
you into those and you're notgoing to be able to enable that
decision maker unless you arebound together in that
three-legged race.
Speaker 2 (27:32):
Yes, and you can be.
You know, you got to knowthyself, know thy buyer, but you
know some really heavy hittingsalespeople do there's a couple
of names for it, but mutualaction plan or a map.
In those meetings you canliterally write like a project
plan after today.
Here I'm going to do thesethings, I'm going to finalize
(27:53):
the proposal with your feedback.
I'm going to send it to you.
You're going to go do this andthat and procurement and this
and that, and you two workingoff a project plan together.
You are literally partners in athree-legged race, right?
As opposed to what's thealternative, a relay race.
We're passing a baton of paperback and forth and there's no
skin in the game from thatperson.
Speaker 1 (28:13):
Yeah, Totally, and I've used maps in certain sales
processes, particularly largerenterprise ones and in smaller
organizations, where it's lesscomplicated and you feel pretty
tightly aligned with thatdecision maker.
You might not need one, butthat's a super helpful tool,
especially if you're looking ata longer sales cycle, more
stakeholders that need to benavigated and consensus that
(28:34):
needs to be built, orprocurement's a part of the
process and that layersadditional complexity.
So it all comes down to kind ofhow complex, how tightly
aligned you are with your buyerSuper, super helpful.
So we've talked about aligned.
We've talked about getting yourfingerprints meeting in place
so that you're clear on thepainful problems.
You've scoped out, with theirinput and buy-in, what those
(28:58):
solutions are going to look like.
You've confirmed that there's abudget there and that it aligns
to the expectations.
Firm that there's a budgetthere and that it aligns to the
expectations.
Tell me a little bit, alison,now that we've done this upfront
work.
What does that proposal looklike and what do you put into
your proposals so that you getvalue on the other side of them?
Speaker 2 (29:18):
Yeah, the first thing I want to say is my proposals
look like what I have agreedwith my buyer or champion.
It should look like that's thebottom line, right?
Because if they have to go getbuy-in and enrollment by
(29:42):
committee right internally, theymight suggest to me that I put
in more case studies or leadwith data.
They might, you know, they'regoing to let me know what are
the tools they need.
So I want to be sure to saythat.
Right, but in any proposaltemplate there's a few things
(30:02):
you know.
Look just about any proposaloff the internet.
You rip off and you make ityour own as an expert.
You're going to be okay, I'mnot going to toil over this.
But there's a few key thingsthat I want to make sure
everybody has or does or doesn'tdo.
The first thing is it does notstart with you.
It drives me absolutely nuts toopen a proposal and see the
(30:27):
first five slides to be allabout me, the vendor.
You know me, the partner.
Here's our story.
Here's our differentiators.
Here's the.
Here's the NASCAR slide.
You know that one, all thelogos that you've ever worked
with.
It has a place, but it's in theappendix.
It just truly is.
(30:48):
We always want to be centeringthe customer, and so the first
thing that my proposals and allof my clients' proposals start
with is that reflection of thecurrent state.
Use your flavor.
I work with small businessowners.
I say what I heard because Ican be a little informal If
you're doing a big seven figure.
That's an executive summary.
(31:09):
This is the current state thatI believe you are in Now.
Why am I doing that if I haveactually elongated my sales
process?
So, to make sure we're on thesame page, it's not for my buyer
, it's for who else is going toread that proposal, right?
It's not for my buyer, it's forwho else is going to read that
proposal, right?
Right, because if we have toagree, you know, by committee,
(31:30):
then the first thing we have toagree on is what the problem is
and what is at stake if we don'tsolve it.
So that's that executivesummary.
Speaking of, you talked aboutthe gap when am I today and
where do I want to go?
So if I'm saying here's whereyou are today, then I'm going to
paint a picture of what'spossible, right, the value
proposition of what you'rehoping to achieve.
(31:51):
And, sam, look, indieCollective has hands down the
best content about value-basedpricing.
I have taken that myself twice.
Like you know, it's really goodand that is what gets you to
that value-based pricing.
Really painting a picture forsomeone.
Here's where you are, here'swhere you want to go.
(32:11):
This is the work you need to doso that you can achieve.
And if they buy that, buy intothat idea, then your pricing
gets to be a certain percentageof that.
That is as easy as it is.
And the last tip listen.
And then you're going to gointo what you're going to do and
you're going to do.
You know it's like, and thebudget and the pricing and the
(32:32):
things, and you know all thatthat a proposal would have.
The other hot take I have foryou is the following so, sam, I
don't know in your proposals orthings that you've done, but
most proposals have a timeline.
You know, and that's smartbecause they've said we'd like
(32:53):
to kick off by this date and youwant to be sure that you kick
off by that date.
So you put it in there.
That makes sense.
Fine, the better version ofthat is that your timeline in
your proposal starts the day yousend the proposal.
It's almost a little bit ofthat map, that mutual action
plan we were talking about.
Is it always appropriate?
Maybe not, but it is most ofthe time.
Start today.
(33:14):
Understand what is going tohappen between now and when we
sign the contract, or whatprocurement looks like.
Map it all out why?
Because it holds themaccountable to that for sure.
But also you are steppingforward and saying I am more
than a vendor, I am not justtrying to get this money and get
to this kickoff.
I understand the jobs on yourplate to do.
(33:37):
I'm acknowledging them and yourjobs are my jobs and I think
it's so powerful to do that.
Speaker 1 (33:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:45):
I love that.
Yeah, not always appropriate tokind of send a proposal with
day one being the day you shipit.
However, if you've done thissales process, you've done your
align, you've done yourfingerprints, you've really
gotten into that three-leggedrace with your decision maker, I
think it is appropriate and, bythe way, that executive summary
(34:05):
is going to show just how muchyou know and the proposal is
going to capture just how muchvalue you can create by diving
headfirst and getting going ASAPwith the project.
So, I think, absolutelyappropriate.
If you're following thismethodology Cool, amazing.
Well, folks, if you've stayedwith us this long, hopefully you
(34:25):
can see that there is a betterway Racing through sales
conversations and grasping atshort straws, sending smallish
proposals that solve smallishproblems.
It's not how, frankly, expertsshould be leading their sales
conversations.
And when you follow thismethodology, when you create
(34:46):
space to align and I think themost important thing in that
space is making sure you askenough of the right questions.
Let people not just tell youwhat's top of mind.
Let them, through the rightquestions, get to the most meaty
, meaningful problems, thethings that they will be
prepared to invest both time andtreasure on, no matter the
(35:09):
economic environment, and thenmake sure, before you ever send
a proposal, that you are in thatthree-legged race.
I cannot underscore that enoughand I know Alison agrees.
If you're not in a three-leggedrace in this economic
environment, good luck gettingto the other side of procurement
, getting the other side ofstarting that contract or
getting to the other side ofreally great results, because
(35:32):
that three-legged race doesn'tjust carry you to the start line
, it carries you to the finishline and, of course, to a
powerful referral partner on theback of it.
So, allison, thank you so muchfor joining us today.
I just love having you as partof our community and always
appreciate you sharing yourwisdom with our members and all
of our listeners.
Speaker 2 (35:51):
Thank you so much, sam.
I always love mixing it up withyou and you're so gracious
because you know what.
You're a really goodsalesperson, always great to
talk with you.
Speaker 1 (36:03):
Absolutely.
Thank you, Allison.
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