The 7-Figure Playbook: Productize & Scale Your Genius w/ Josh Neckes

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The biggest myth in consulting? That every engagement has to be bespoke.

In this episode of The 7-Figure Playbook, Sam Lee (IndeCollective, Founder & CEO) sits down with productization expert and longtime IndeCollective Expert Josh Neckes to unpack how independent consultants and coaches can turn their brilliance into scalable, repeatable offerings -- without sacrificing client results or personal freedom.

You’ll learn:

• Why productization isn’t about rigidity -- it’s about leverage
• The Fourfold Path of productizing: Codify → Standardize → Modularize → Productize
• How to turn your IP into products clients want to buy and you love to deliver
• Why starting with clarity around your Ideal Client and painkiller problem is key
• The trap of over-customization -- and how to build guardrails that protect your time and profit margins
• How to use productized offers to build credibility, demand, and a waitlist
• Real-world examples from IndeCollective members who’ve gone from custom work to signature programs, playbooks, and diagnostic frameworks

Whether you’re trying to move from freelance to founder -- or ready to build a 7-figure firm that runs without you -- this conversation is your blueprint.

Your time is valuable. Productization makes sure it stays that way.

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IG: IndeCollective | Freelance MBA (@indecollective) • Instagram photos and videos
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/indecollec

Episode Transcript

Sam Lee (00:00):
Welcome to the Modern Independent, a podcast dedicated
to inspiring, equipping andempowering top independent
workers to supercharge theircareers and build more balanced
lives.
As you probably already know,we have three flavors of the
modern independent, and todayyou're joining us for an episode
of the Seven-Figure Playbook, aseries where I, sam Lee, the
founder and CEO of IndieCollective, interview

(00:21):
distinguished independentbusiness builders, folks who are
here to share with you thepractical playbooks that have
helped them to build moresuccessful businesses while
living more balanced lives.
Today, I'm excited to be joinedby Josh Nekes.
Josh is a marketing leader andcompany builder, somebody who's
built his own seven-figureconsultancy, as well as two
high-growth venture-backedstartups.

(00:42):
Today, josh and I are going totalk about productization, and
that's because most consultantsand coaches are caught in a
pernicious trap they're tradingtheir time for money.
I say that this is a pernicioustrap because if you're trading
your time for money, you'renecessarily capping your
potential, that's, yourpotential, income, impact and
flexibility, because there areonly so many hours in the day

(01:04):
and week, and if you're tradingthose hours to work harder and
not smarter because you haven'tproductized your work, you'll
eventually plateau in yourincome and impact, while trading
away the valuable time youcould otherwise spend pursuing
the people and passion projectsthat matter most to you.
This trade of time for money isa terrible equation, so we're

(01:25):
here today to inspire you and tothink and act differently, so
that you can build a productizedbusiness of your own.
Josh's first brush withproductization began years ago,
when he founded his ownindependent marketing
consultancy, pxp.
Like most of us, josh began hisdirect consulting work by
trading his time for money, butthen quickly turned to
productization to achieve evengreater impact, income and

(01:49):
flexibility in his life.
Within a year of productizingPXP's offering, josh's
consultancy crossed theseven-figure revenue mark, and
then, within just two years,josh founded his second company,
simon Data, a marketingtechnology platform that now
employs north of 100 people anddrives tens of millions in
annual revenue.
By taking a methodical approachto productization, josh was

(02:12):
able to shift from offering hisclients bespoke marketing
engagements to developingrepeatable processes and product
offerings, things that haveenabled him to do more of the
work he loves, while freeing upthe time to develop the
technology that has delivered anexponential return on his
effort.
In today's episode, josh and Iare going to unpack what it
means to productize and how youcan do it.

(02:33):
We'll get specific about thethreefold path that he's helped
hundreds of our Indie Collectivegrads to walk to build their
own productized consulting andcoaching practices.
And then we're going to getspecific about things you can be
doing this year to shift awayfrom trading time for money and
building a scalable businessthat you're going to love.
So with that, let's get into it.

(02:54):
Josh, thanks so much forjoining us.
Thanks, sam, it's great to behere.
It's always great to be inconversation with you.
Let's just start with thebasics what exactly is
productization?
And tell us a little bit aboutthe benefits of pursuing this
path.

Josh (03:10):
Yeah, well, look, I mean, I think everybody has a slightly
different definition of whatproductization is, but at the
end of the day, what we'retalking about is taking,
whatever it is, the work,whatever you're doing, whatever
you are functionally producingas a consultant or a coach or
you know whatever type of soleproprietor you are, and you know
, turning that into an easilyrepeatable effort so that I'm,

(03:33):
at the end of the day, doing thesame thing over and over for
clients who look the same,charging the same amount,
running into the same problemsand accruing the benefits that
that provides.
I think often, when we embarkon the journey to be consultants
or to sort of hang out our ownshingle, the first thing that we

(03:56):
do is just operate from aposition of total fear and
anxiety, where we're just like,oh God, I need to replace the
income that I've lost and secureX number of retainers, doing
any work that people will pay mefor.
And there's some period of timeafter that where we pick our
heads up and we're like man, Ifeel like I'm working really
hard all the time for not enoughmoney.

(04:17):
And it also feels like I'mconstantly reinventing the wheel
and selling a new thing and,like you know, prototype after
prototype of engagementprototype and prototype after
client type.
You know, and I think you know,for me there was just an aha
moment when I ran into some youknow a couple of folks in a row
when I was living in New Yorkand in my twenties and they just

(04:39):
had these services businessesthat looked like mine, but they
were super efficient and exactlywho they were selling to.
They sold the same engagementover and over again, made it
really easy for them to marketwhat they did, made it really
easy for them to get referred,made it really easy for them to
build out their teams and knowwhat skill sets they would want
to hire and scale around.
It gave them a real pathway toinsights that allowed them to

(05:02):
grow their business in ways thatwere organic and natural with
their existing clients,expanding those revenue
footprints, doing more businesswith their best clients, and at
the end of the day, they werejust suffering less than I was
and their upside was a lothigher.
And so I got a lot of passionfor that work and I think in
services, the great joy ofproductization is that it can be

(05:22):
whatever you want.
You're only limited by whatyour imagination and then the
work that you're capable ofperforming.
So, yeah, that's how I thinkabout it and those are the
benefits that seem really clear.
And I think most folks whoaren't productizing will say
things about their business likeI feel like I'm working too
hard, I feel like I'm not makingenough money, I feel like I

(05:42):
should be charging more, but Idon't know how.
So, the too hard I feel likeI'm not making enough money, I
feel like I should be chargingmore, but I don't know how.
So, like the problems of notproductizing often show up in
slow sales and having challenge,finding, you know, new leads in
all stages of getting clients,retaining them, charging them
what feels like a fair rate.
It truly is a prism, you know,through which to look at your
business.
And often when people come tome with a problem in one of

(06:04):
those domains like oh, I'mhaving trouble selling or I'm
having trouble charging orwhatever it ends up actually
being a problem upstream of that, in the way that they think
about and conceptualize sellingtheir services.

Sam Lee (06:15):
Beautiful, beautiful.
I mean that is a beautifuldestination.
I know all of us on thispodcast today are intrigued to
learn more.
And, before we get into thehow-to, how do you get to that
place where you can build onceand sell again and again and
again?
So less effort to drive, moreimpact and income?
Let's just unpack your journeyright.
You said it was in your midtwenties, when you were starting

(06:37):
to do the consulting, when youfound yourself doing these
bespoke market engagements,things that were trading time
for money, things that werefrankly depleting you, not
energizing you and getting youto your best results, that you
began to walk the path.
So tell us a little bit abouthow you walked that path from a
bespoke place to ultimatelyfinding a really strong,

(06:58):
productized offering for PXP.
Sure.

Josh (07:01):
Yeah, I mean, look like I sort of fell into being a sole
proprietor for many of thereasons that other folks do.
I do extremely poorly when Ihave a boss, so I don't like
people telling me what to do,and I wanted some flexibility.
I wanted to choose the people Iworked with.
I wanted to have some upside.
That was all mine.
You know, I wanted to be ableto go out and you know feel the

(07:24):
thrill of victory and the windin my hair, you know, sailing my
little pirate ship around, andso the way that I started was
just basically by doing what Iwas saying, which was like, hey,
I'm here, I'm a marketer, youknow, letting all the people in
my network know I'm availablefor contract work.
You know, as I would get toknow people, you know, I sort of
would like push on areas that Iwas comfortable in.

(07:45):
So, like I knew that there werelots of people who were
consulting around things likebuying ads on the internet or
what we called performancemarketing, and so I would just
talk to people, get someinterest, see if people were
looking, look, look at companieswhere people were hiring
performance marketers and offerconsulting services to them, and
then I would just charge on anhourly basis.
I'd be like you're going to buya bucket of you know it's 20

(08:06):
hours for me, for you know $200an hour or whatever it was, and
usually it's going to.
I'm going to deliver you someoutcomes.
I'm going to improve yourperformance margins Very hand
wavy.
Or I would do retainers.
Oh, it's, you know, like we'regoing to work on it together and
I'm going to figure it out andlike that was fine, but you know

(08:28):
it suffered from a lot of theproblems that I mentioned.
I had clients that were all overthe place in terms of what they
expected.
So, you're working on myperformance marketing, you're
going to make it better.
What does that mean?
What outcomes can I expect?
How should I measure you?
Can I expect?
How should I measure you?
Some clients would have reallyconservative expectations oh,
you're just going to make it alittle better.
Others would have very lofty,unreasonable goals, neither of

(08:50):
which I was managing well.
And then they were across allsorts of different industries.
I had B2C companies, I had B2Bcompanies.
I had companies that werereally big.
I had companies that werereally small.
All of them had differentproblems.
So I was constantly being askedto like come up with new
solutions or new frameworks oryou know we need this type of
report.
No, that type of report doesn'twork for us, even though it

(09:10):
works for your other client.
We need this type of report.
So just the cognitive overheadof managing this was crazy.
And then it's a servicesbusiness.
So your clients are constantlyhaving crises, there's
constantly issues, there'sconstantly problems, and when
those problems are asymmetric,when they're different, you know
, client to client, you're justhaving to do even more work than
you're already doing, justputting out the fire.

(09:32):
It's like now it's not only twoin the morning and I've just
put out one fire and I'm movingon to the second one.
It's like now I have to liketotally shift how I'm thinking
about the problem.
I can't reuse any of the workthat I've done.
So I was just like man, thissucks and I started looking at
my clients.
Somebody once gave me the pieceof advice like who are your
best clients and what makes them?

Sam Lee (09:52):
similar.

Josh (09:52):
That was sort of my starting point.
And then being inspired, asmentioned, by other folks who
are productizing, and I foundthat I had this really sort of
specific group of e-commercestartups that were, you know,
midsize a couple hundredemployees scaling, had raised a
bunch of venture funding andwere trying to figure out how to

(10:14):
deploy it efficiently.
I liked them because they movedfast, they wanted results, they
were reasonable, they weredata-driven.
So that was the first thing isI was like, okay, I'm just going
to focus on my storytelling tothese folks, you know, and that
really helped me, kind of, justlike all right, I'm solving the
same problem, it feels like,with these folks again and again
.
I didn't have a ton ofstructure around my engagements,

(10:34):
but at least I was focused inon a client type which was like
I was hitting, you know, likecrises with clients, but it was
kind of like I didn't know whatthe crisis was going to be until
I got in there, you know.
So it's like it's like whenperformance marketing
engagements go sideways.
They go sideways because theclient's like, oh, you know,

(10:57):
you're going to improve myperformance marketing by x
percent.
You're like, yeah, that seemsreasonable.
And then you get in there.
And you're like that seemsreasonable, and then you get in
there and you're like this is anabsolute shit show.
You know, I there's.
You don't have the rightmaterials, you don't have the
right collateral, you don't havethe right offers, you don't
have the right willingness toextend discount whatever.
So, like, the quality of yourclients varies wildly, even you
know, but you only find that outonce you start working with

(11:18):
them.
So, like when I looked at myclient base, I was like you know
, I had like half of my clientsI loved working with, half I
hated working with, but therewas no way to tell them apart up
front.
So this really gave me a lot ofconviction around the first
real product that I created,which was performance marketing
audits.
So I would go in and I was like, all right, instead of me
trying to sell you a six monthengagement up front or like a

(11:39):
big bucket of hours, instead I'mgoing to come in and I'm just
going to charge you 20 grand togive you this really
professional looking readoutthat works for all e-commerce
startups that have raised abunch of money and it was great
for them because they got to seehow I worked and I got to find
the problems up front.
That would substantiate abigger engagement, and I also
got to look under the hood.
So it was like, okay, what'sreally going on under here?

(12:01):
Oh, maybe not.
Like, let's not sign up forthis one.
Help me protect my brand, helpjust have a happy breakup moment
.
And so that, really those twothings.
It was like Sam, I use a lot oflanguage like front end and
back end.
Right, I'm going to do an auditup front on the front end and
that's going to substantiateback end revenue growth For me.

(12:21):
I kind audit, make it easier tosay yes to some sort of
relationship with me.
Front end, and let me do acheck on the quality of this
client to make sure they're notcrazy or their expectations
aren't unreasonable or theydon't have what it takes for me
to be successful, so that everyengagement feels good.
If I'm hitting a crisis, it'ssomething that I feel like I can
solve or is of my own making,versus just like I'm working
with an unreasonable client that, like, doesn't have the tools

(12:43):
they need to win.
So that was like, okay, thatwas phase two.
And then from there, I justcontinued to refine.
Right.
It was like, okay, these typesof e-commerce companies backed
by these VCs, and I eventuallycreated products, like you know,
a Series B e-commerce growthplan.
Like you, raise that big round,your investors are breathing
down your neck.
You're the CMO.
You're scared.

(13:04):
I'm going to get you there.
I'm going to deploy that $50million with you and get you the
return that you need to see,give you the readouts that the
board is expecting, and all ofyour CMO friends have already
worked with me, so it's justlike easy, easy, easy.
And then I'm hiring people outof those companies that know
what it looks like to do thatperformance marketing work under
me.
That was how we scaled theagency.

(13:27):
On the back of that.
Then it was what are theproducts that are missing?
as we look to tell that story,you know and that's what led me
ultimately towards creating anactual technology company, which
was all about using data tomarket more effectively.
So you know, and again, likethat was my personal journey,
but I think it really ties backto and cleaves to what we were
talking about before, which islike step one get in there,
understand the clients you like,working with the problems that

(13:48):
they have, the ones you'repassionate about, where you
think you can win, where themoney is, where you're
differentiated.
Figure out, then, how to likewinnow that down and make it
easy to start working with youin a replicable way that lets
you also sanity check the client.
Then double down on that.
Build products that make sensefrom like a services perspective

(14:08):
, that are easy for your clientto buy.
That deliver outcomes and makeit easy for you to scale.
So that was sort of my journeyand I know there's a lot in
there and we'll tease out thethemes.
But, like, ultimately that'show it was for me.

Sam Lee (14:21):
Beautiful, and what you just heard from Josh about his
own path of productizationclosely follows the threefold
path that we, through IndieCollective, help our members to
diagnostically walk.
So you're not meandering, butinstead deliberately walking
step-by-step, in an iterativeprocess, of course, to get to

(14:43):
first, greater focus on yourideal clients and their
painkiller problems, theproblems that they will answer
the phone about, sign avalue-based contract around and,
of course, be referring you tothe next set of ideal clients to
solve the problems.
For Second, it's aboutcontinuously and iteratively
developing those repeatablesolutions, solutions that are

(15:04):
going to come into focus quicklyand that you can continue to
iterate over time and build upon.
So, like Josh said, you have afront end how you start your
engagements that layers into amiddle or a back end so that you
have longer lasting, moreenduring engagements,
engagements that drive moreimpact and income but also turn
into a great basis for referrals.
And as you do this processgetting focused on the clients

(15:26):
and problems, building therepeatable solutions that solve
those problems you can begin toreally productize right.
Put in place the processes, thesystems, the kit that's going
to help you to scale the workwithout trading away your time
linearly.
So those are the three key stepsthat I'm hearing from Josh.
Those are the same steps thatwe help our members to
diagnostically walk throughIndie Collective.

(15:49):
Josh, let's kind of get intofor each of those steps,
starting with just gettingfocused on ideal clients and
painkiller problems.
Let's talk about some tipsright, where do people start
People that want to do thisthemselves or kind of walk this
path?
What would you recommend that?

Josh (16:04):
want to do this themselves or kind of walk this path.
What would you recommend?
Yeah, I mean, you know.
So, in general, there's likethat Venn diagram, the
tripartite Venn diagram, thatgoes around, which is like
things I'm good at, things thatpeople will pay me for, you know
, and things I'm passionateabout, right, and it's like the
thing that we should be focusedon is at the center of those
three things.

(16:25):
And so, you know, I think youknow, we're not all that
fortunate sometimes, you know,two out of three ain't bad,
right, you know.
But in general, you do need tobe focused on something.
Um, you know that you have aninterest in um, that, uh, you
know, and that can be aprofessional interest, doesn't
have to be like my heart ismoved by performance marketing.

(16:46):
It's like it's interesting, youknow, uh, there's interesting
trends happening here.
And then stuff that you knowpeople are willing to pay for,
um, you know, is really criticalas well.
Um, and stuff you're good at,because that's you know.
So I think, generally, when weare moved to become sole
proprietors or consultants or tostart our own companies, we're
sort of already operating inthat zone, right, like, we're

(17:07):
sort of like all right, this isthe thing I'm called to do.
You know, for one reason oranother, I'm interested in this
market and I'm good at servingit, and I have some conviction
that I don't need the tent, thebig tent, of some company or
some infrastructure around me tocreate value.
In fact, I might create morevalue unencumbered by that
artifice.
And then it's really focusingon what I was saying before,

(17:29):
which is look for problems thatare consistent, they show up
consistently and whose solutionsare consistent, so that it's
like I'm creating replicabilityand predictability on both sides
.
Unpredictability is the enemyof scale.
It's like if I am, you know,constantly solving a new problem

(17:51):
, or the solution to the sameproblem is constantly different,
I'm thinking too much, I'm notmoving quickly, so we want to
get out of.
Obviously some amount ofthinking is interesting and like
that's fine, but like you wantto be the one who's choosing,
when you're applying thatcognitive load, not being
reactive to these things.
So, consistent problems,consistent solutions.
It can be really helpful tolook around the market and see

(18:14):
who's doing that.
You know like who is gettingpaid for you know work that you
want to do and what are theirsolutions look?
like and how do they frame theproblems that they solve?
And I think the final tip Iwould give is, like you know
well, there's two.
One is look where you canprovide differentiated value,
like what's the thing thatyou're good at, because that's
just going to make your lifeeasier, you know.

(18:34):
And then the last one is pick athing where it's easy to
quantify that you had an impact.
You know, performance marketingwasn't my favorite thing.
My favorite thing was messaging.
But if I write some new wordsfor you and we both agree that
they're better, that's fine.
How much better are they?
20% better, 30% better, 50%better.
Maybe somebody else doesn'tlike them as much.

(18:55):
Now we've created this likeweird subjective landscape of
value where, like, I have toconvince you that it's this much
better and you're going to payme that amount.
It always felt very squishydoing these messaging
engagements, even though Ireally enjoyed them.
Performance marketing it's likelook, the line went up and to
the right, okay, and it went up200%, so it's 200% better.
You just can't argue with it.
And that made it really easy tobuild case studies, to tell the

(19:19):
story of why working with memade sense, and then it also
allowed me to have a reallystrong argument about why
whatever it was that they wantedme to do, that I didn't think
was valuable and not scalable,wasn't worth focusing on.
Right, it's like, hey, like Idon't want, yeah, I want you to
build this custom report.
That report doesn't matterbecause it's not gonna help me
drive 200% return, which is whyyou hired me.

(19:40):
So you know, versus when you'reoperating in a place where value
is more subjective, asdesigners well know, an opinion
is worth an opinion is worth anopinion, and nobody's opinion is
more important than theclient's opinion, even if it's
wrong, and I think that's okay.
You know we can operate inthose spaces and build
differentiated products in thosespaces and there are ways to do
that, but it's just morechallenging.

(20:02):
So, anyway, that's how I thinkabout it.
Those are tips that, like youknow, when I think, just
starting out, talking to friendswho are like leaving jobs or
starting consultancies, it'slike those are great ways to
just start to get in there andkind of understand where you
might have a product that couldwork.

Sam Lee (20:16):
Yeah, beautiful, and I think you know when I was
listening to you talk about, youknow your ideal client.
You know 10 years ago thatseries B startup who's just
raised the big round, who needsthe been there, done that
experience to deploy the capitalto effectively grow.
You know there's a hierarchy ofproblems that that CMO faces

(20:38):
and, as you just outlined, thereare probably branding and
messaging things that they needto work on.
There are also, you know,performance based ad spend and
growth things that they need towork on.
They're also performance-basedad spend and growth engine that
they need to build.
And when you think about thelitany of things that that CMO
needs to do, from deploying thead dollars to upgrading the
messaging, there's a hierarchy.

(20:58):
There's painkiller problems,stuff that if they don't resolve
them and don't do iteffectively, are going to break
the business, and then there arenice to solve problems at the
top to the bottom of thathierarchy.
And I think what you describedand certainly what we help
people to do through IndieCollective is make sure you're
diagnostically looking at thethings you could be doing, from

(21:19):
deploying those ad dollarseffectively to upgrading the
messaging and making sure you'reliving in a space that is worth
solving.
That CMO is, of course, goingto pick up the call, of course
sign the value-based contract,of course be referring you to
the next CMO, because you'resolving a problem that's going
to create outsized value forthem and, of course, you too,
something that you can reallycharge for.

Josh (21:41):
Totally.
I mean, it's like it's one ofthose things where, just to add
onto that, it's like I've becomeeven more a believer.
You know in my, in my advancingage, that if you're not solving
one of the top two problemssomebody's thinking about,
you're just gonna have a badtime.
Like it doesn't mean you can'tbe successful, it doesn't mean
you can't grow a business, butlike it's gonna be a lot harder.

Sam Lee (22:01):
You know, it's like when I talk to you, I wanna be
like.

Josh (22:03):
What are the two things you're worried about?
And one of them is gonna be theproblem I'm focused on and my
sales pitch to you is way forevery client, because my
strategy works.
Doesn't mean I don't customizeit for your needs, doesn't mean
I don't suit it for yourbusiness, but like I have the
playbook you want to buy theoutcome.
That's what I have to sell you.
Let's go, you know yeah Icouldn't agree more.

Sam Lee (22:25):
In this economic environment, which is choppy,
but in any economic environmentthere is not time or treasure.
There is just no budget forpeople that are solving nights
to solve problems.
Nobody wants to talk aboutthose, nobody has the time or
the money to do that work.
So you want to be living inthat painkiller problem or in
the outsized opportunity space.
So that's where you need to befocusing and you need to make

(22:47):
sure you've validated thatthrough this path of
productization.
Let's talk a little bit aboutproduct market fit.
I think that is another termthat means different things to
different people.
In the context of what we'redoing here as consultants and
coaches, for me it really is thecenter of a Venn diagram where
you've found your ideal client,that client for whom you're

(23:10):
excited, for whom you can showup as an expert.
You've focused on a painkillerproblem or problems of theirs
which they need to solveurgently and therefore are
willing to deploy budget andtime to solve.
And, of course, you've figuredout that solution, the solution
that you can uniquely deliver.
That's going to create outsizedvalue for them and, of course,

(23:31):
be something you can be chargingoutsized value for yourself and
your business.
Tell us, how do you find theproduct market fit right, like
what's that process of gettingthere and how do you know you
found it right?
What's the signal that youfound your product market fit as
a consultant or coach?

Josh (23:47):
Totally.
Well, I'll start with thesecond part first, which is how
do you know you have productmarket fit?
You know, a good friend of minelikes to say there's a sucking
sound which is, you know, it'sjust the demand outstripping
your ability to meet it.
Right, that is product marketfit, it's a feeling, it's an I
know it when I see it to somedegree.

(24:07):
And you know, product marketfit is not a Boolean thing,
right, it's not yes or no, Ihave product market fit or I
don't.
There's degrees of fit, I think, and there's like thresholds
past which things really becomeoutsized and you know, and
favorable to you.
But yeah, it's a thing whereyou start to feel a tailwind,
right, you start to feel, youknow, a lot of times, I like in

(24:30):
the act of starting a business,it just feels like you're
rushing into a headwind, youknow, and it feels like nothing
is helping or supporting whatyou're doing.
Every win is hard fought, youknow, slashing through the
jungle with a machete, trying tofind the next pot of gold, and
you know, there's just no senseof efficiency or ease to it.
And I think you know this.

(24:51):
First, signals of productmarket fit tend to be the
experience of like entering afallow clearing and feeling, ah
yes, like, maybe what we'redoing here, you know is is going
to go somewhere and and that'ssomething that you know is a
special feeling and gettingthere, the process of getting
from getting to product marketfit, you know, it's just all
about designing a solution toyour point that does exactly how

(25:15):
you defined it.
We're solving a real problemfor a market.
It is super valuable, there'san outsized willingness and
ability to pay for it and it'shappening in a way that feels
replicable, that you're doingwell and in a way that's
differentiated to some degree.
And how do you get to thatplace?
What is the process for gettingto product market fit?

(25:38):
Well, step one is ideatingaround products.
Right, it's like, and of it aslike, start by just being
inspired, like, look at peoplewho are doing the work, figure

(25:59):
out what's cool about it.
You know, and sort ofunderstand, like, what the
trends are in your industry andwhich ones you want to be
attached to.
Hypothesize, right, come upwith solutions that you feel
like are replicable, that areinteresting, and then work in
the market.
You know, do that consultingwork as you're starting to get
your hypotheses together.
After that it's like great,I've got some options.

(26:19):
For me it was like was series atoo early to do for e-commerce
companies?
Was series c too late?
What I found was series abudgets were too small and the
ceos were too involved, so Ididn't get enough freedom.
Series c they already had a bigass team and they'd been
deploying capital for a while.
So like my marginal ability toto drive, you know value was
like kind of smaller.
So like I deploying the sameplaybook.

(26:40):
They're like, yeah, this isgood, but like we can already do
a lot of this.
Series b was kind of the sweetspot right.
So I sort of worked through abunch of different models before
I landed on that sweet part, uh, that sweet spot.
And then it was, you know,following the signal and
refining your pitch and refiningyou know what it is that you're
doing.
Um, you know, and then once youkind of find that signal, it's

(27:01):
all about, you know, sort ofjust like doubling down on it,
so competing in the market,figuring out who's buying these
things, saying no to engagementsthat don't map to what you're
trying to focus on, which isalways the hardest part.
It's like, hey, now I'm aseries b, series B e-commerce
performance marketer with thisapproach.
Oh, my buddy has a B2Bhealthcare company that has a

(27:22):
big budget for performancemarketing.
Do you want me to introduce you?
I mean, yeah, I do.
But there's a real opportunitycost to losing focus and
sometimes you do it and that'sokay.
That's part of the joy of beinga sole proprietor is making
exceptions for yourself.
But all the best businesses Iknow at some point or another
have a real gut check momentwhere they have to say no to

(27:44):
something and it's painful andthat's how you know you're on
the right path.
It's like the demand and thepossibilities are so great I'm
going to turn down this shorttermterm gain for a longer-term
benefit and then you scale it.
You know it's.
Look, we've got this e-commerceseries B thing People want to
buy it.
I've got a list of clients thatare working with that want to
work with me.
That's longer than I can serve.

(28:05):
Let me hire some people.
Okay, I feel good about that.
I'm going to sell theseengagements.
Let me raise my prices, youknow.
Let me delegate 20 things andreally try to figure out where I
can get some additional margin,where I can get some additional
throughput.
How can I use my time best?
What are the things that only Ican do versus things that I can
hire people to do?
You know, that's like.
That's how you know you'regetting there.

(28:26):
I mean, this is how the greatyou know services companies of
the world have been built.
It's one client at a time.
It is one engagement at a time.
It it is that incrementalreplicability, that ability to
scale up impact, because whatyou found is such a great
solution for what the marketrequires.

Sam Lee (28:43):
Yeah, I love that.
I think as you hear Josh speak,you're probably thinking gosh,
this is a really smart guy.
He's one of the smartest guysthat I know, which is why I
brought him into the fold atIndie Collective, and, without
anybody else's support, he wasable to build a seven-figure
consultancy, a productizedbusiness, in 18 months.
But that's not most people'soutcome, right?

(29:06):
If you are meandering on thispath, if you're trialing and
erroring, without the rightdiagnostic approach, coaching
and accountability partnership,this path can be a lot of
tinkering without a lot of greatresults.
So when I say you need to bemore diagnostic, what I mean,
very simply, is that you need tostart with hypothesizing.
You need to throw spaghetti onthe wall.

(29:28):
Take what's in your brain andwhat you've experienced over the
course of your professionalcareer, go out and see what's
happening in the world and thinkbig.
Next, you need to make surethat you're validating the
hypotheses, and you can do thisthrough a combination of user
research, so getting in front ofthose ideal clients, confirming
they have the painkillerproblems and validating that the

(29:48):
solutions and the results thatyou can repeatably deliver are
going to be worth their time andmoney.
And then, last but not leastyou need to iterate right.
That means just doing the workand, as you get the results for
your business and your clients,really perfecting that offering
so that you get to a place whereyou want to scale.
So that's what it means to takea diagnostic path and that's

(30:11):
kind of what we try to help youto deliberately do through Indie
Collective.

Josh (30:14):
Well, and I think I mean it's very nice of you to say
nice things about me, sam, Iappreciate that and I promised,
you know, that I didn't pay toomuch for those compliments, but
in reality, like that's whathappened to me, it just took a
lot longer.
You know, and this is like thething is.
Like you know, I was on my ownor working at consulting firms
and being frustrated.
And look, when you're in yourmid-20s you can afford to not

(30:38):
make that much money for a yearor two or three.
You can afford to have somefailures because at the end of
the day, I was just trying tohave enough money to pay my rent
and go out to get a nice beer.
But it's like for many peoplewho are looking to make this
leap, there's no reason to getbeat up in the market first and
learn all the hard lessons thehard way, because ultimately

(31:00):
you're going to figure out allthis stuff.
The benefit of a program likethe one that you run is just a
shortcut.
It's a shortcut to a lot ofthose hard-won lessons.
I like to joke when I'mtraining people to sell.
I'm like I have all these scarsall over my you know my sort of
metaphorical body.
Let me spare you the pain ofgetting hit in the face with a

(31:20):
spiked bat a bunch of times, youknow, by people who are
difficult to deal with in salesby following these rules, you
know, and so I think that's thethat's the beauty of this is
like anyone out there can learnthese lessons.
It's just a lot more pleasantto learn them over 10 weeks
versus over 10 years.

Sam Lee (31:38):
Yeah, 100% At this point.
We've now talked about thefirst two steps of that
threefold path to productizingan offering.
We've talked about gettingfocused on ideal clients that
have painkiller problems.
We've talked about how youdevelop those repeatable
solutions, ones that createoutsized value for yourself and

(31:58):
also the clients you serve.
The third key step is aboutbuilding something scalable
around that solution putting inplace process, systems, tools,
things that allow you to attractgreat clients, close great
business, charge value rates andsave time while doing it.
I'd love to kind of unpack howyou do those other things right

(32:21):
and why this path ofproductization, doing this
upfront work to get focused andbuild the repeatable solutions
is so critical to unlocking allthese other benefits of a more
scalable consulting or coachingpractice.

Josh (32:35):
Yeah, I mean, I think, sort of like I was saying before
, I think there's, you know, alot of value in just sort of
first, like you know, we've gotour product set, we've defined
it, you know.
So we're sort of assuming thatwe've like hypothesized and
tested and got something that welike.
There's a few things that Ithink are really important that

(32:58):
I often see people miss.
Number one is like tell peoplewhat you're doing Explicitly,
right On your website.
I solve problems for clientslike this.
This is the solution that Iprovide.
This is the impact, you know.
Let everybody you work withknow this is a product that I
currently am really excitedabout.
Let your prospects and currentclients know this is something

(33:21):
that we've been developing for awhile and it's really cool.
I'd love to take you through itand get your feedback.
So it's like, yes, we've beendoing.
I've been running my consultingfirm and my practice for however
long.
I have a network of people,however large or small, and
there's a new thing that I'mdoing and it's really cool.
It's the apotheosis of all ofthe experience I've gleaned.
It's focused on people like you.

(33:41):
It's a thing for you.
I'm doing this right now, bythe way, at my current business,
where I'm like launching a newproduct, going to all of our
clients and prospects.
It's hey, this is a new thing.
It's really exciting.
It's made based on the factthat I've been working with
clients like you in market forthree years.
You know let's, do you havetime to to hear about it?
And the answer is always yes,you know.
And then, um, really pressuretesting all of your assumptions,

(34:05):
pricing, willingness to pay,scope of engagement, where are
the rough edges?
When we deploy, you know withour clients, like, where is it
breaking?
You know, um, you know, what dowe need to change?
And so it's like that wholeprocess of scaling starts from,
like pressure testing theproduct and market, really
getting feedback on every stepof the process, not just
deploying the solution butselling it how do we package it,

(34:27):
how do we market it, how doesit get referred.
And then, you know you startlooking for ways to pour fuel on
the fire.
You know, like I was sort ofsaying which is okay within this
repeatable process ofdiagnosing this problem, getting
in there, executing whateverour proprietary solution is.
What parts of that could I hirea smart 25-year-old to do?

(34:48):
Or, as we're going to talkabout later.
Use ChatGPT more, but minimally.
It's like where can I realizeefficiencies?
How many clients can I holdright now?
Well, can it be five, can it be10?
Okay, what would need to happenfor me to get to 20?
What would need to happen forme to get to 30?
Alternately, currently I charge$10,000 per client per month.

(35:08):
What would I have to be doingto get to 20?
Is it a value perception issue?
Is there more work I can takeon that's adjacent?
Can I expand these productswhile keeping them replicable?
These are the sorts of thingsthat are the problems that come
on the back of good design, goodimplementation of an initial
solution.

Sam Lee (35:29):
Great, and another workshop that you teach through
Indie Collective is value-basedpricing.
I'm curious to hear you speak alittle bit about how
productization and value-basedpricing.
I'm curious to hear you speak alittle bit about how
productization and value-basedpricing go hand in glove.

Josh (35:41):
Totally.
I mean, I think at the end ofthe day, the thing that I
believe the most in business isperceived value of whatever
you're doing is the mostimportant thing, right?
It's like people get so wrappedup in how we do a thing this is
my biggest complaint.
It's like, oh, so wrapped up inhow we do a thing, this is my
biggest complaint.
It's like, oh, here's ourmethodology, here's our secret

(36:01):
sauce.
No one cares.
Literally the only reason whypeople do care is either
intellectual curiosity orbecause they don't have anything
better to talk about.
But at the end of the day,we're all here.
We're getting paid as businessowners, as decision makers, to
solve problems.
I care about my problem, Idon't care about your solution,
except to the extent that itsolves my problem.

(36:22):
When that problem is solved,value is created.
So when I think aboutproductization and pricing, it's
like what is the virtuous loop?
The virtuous loop is hello,prospect.
You have a problem yes, yes, Ido no-transcript for you with my

(37:02):
product.
Yes, great, here is how much itcosts, right, and how much it
costs is a direct output of howmuch value is being created.
So the linkage betweenproductization and pricing is
repeatable value creation andmarket yields repeatable pricing
that is defensible and hasprice integrity.
Ie, negotiating doesn't feelbad when there's not clear value

(37:24):
being created.
It's much more challenging toput a price on something and it
feels a lot squishier.
So it's like, hey, we're $10,000a month to improve your
performance marketing.
Why?
Well, because that's the amountthat I need to pay my rent.
That's not a good answer.
Or that's the amount that itfeels like it should cost Not a
good answer.
A good answer is we estimatewe're going to make you, based
on your ad spend and currentrate of return, an additional

(37:46):
$100,000 a month, and 10% ofthat feels really generous.
How does that feel to you?
A 10x return on your investmentwith us is great.
Wow, that feels great.
Can you do it for cheaper?
No, I can't.
That's how much I charge.
You're lucky, it's not 20%.
So it's like the feeling ofproductization leads to the.
A good feeling aroundproductization leads to a good

(38:07):
feeling around pricing, becausegood products create reliable
and replicable value.
They do so in a way that'smeasurable and that leads us to
a place where it's very easy forus to price.
We know we've productized wellwhen pricing is not hard and
when pricing feels defensibleand when we're excited to say
what the price is, not worriedabout it or feeling like we're
constantly getting underpaid.
You know, the number one thingthat people say in Indie

(38:28):
Collective when they're startingout is you know we do that poll
right.

Sam Lee (38:39):
Which is like, do you?

Josh (38:39):
feel like you're charging too much or charging too little,
and inevitably, greater than 85of people are like I'm charging
too little, but I don't knowwhat to do about it.
And the answer is what wetalked about, which is well, you
probably have a product problemfirst, and that product problem
might be replicability.
It might be the way you'remeasuring value, whatever it is,
but you got to start there.
Cool, I do this reliably, I doit repeatably.
I create value.
That value is measurable.
Now I can come up with a pricethat makes a ton of sense.
There's a thousand ways to skinthat cat, but that linkage is

(39:00):
super important and it leads toa sales process that is
repeatable.
That doesn't require AlecBaldwin from Glenn Gary, glenn
Ross to execute.
It can be anyone.
People are often like I don'tlike sales.
Well, sales isn't fun when youhave to kind of pull the wool
over somebody's eyes or convincethem to say yes to something
that, like, doesn't make sense.
Sales is really fun and anyonecan do it when it's here's a big

(39:23):
bag of money, will you give mea smaller bag of money in an
exchange?

Sam Lee (39:33):
And that's ultimately, the formula that we're trying to
get to, you know, with clearmeasurement, repeatability, you
know, and pricing that maps tothat Beautiful.
And this kind of relationshipbetween productization and
value-based pricing two sides ofthe same coin is not specific
to performance marketing, whichis where Josh has kind of
elaborated.
He did it.
We've done this two-sided coinwith people from more than two
dozen different disciplinarybackgrounds and it really is

(39:56):
fundamentally about helping you,as a consultant or coach, to
set up your fair value exchangeright.
Just like josh said, you wantto be coming as an expert who
has an ideal client with apainful problem, saying hey,
client, I've worked with peoplejust like you and in solving
this problem, I consistentlycreate a giant bag of money for
you and your organization and inexchange for that, because it's

(40:18):
a fair exchange, I'm going toask for a smaller and
commensurate bag of money orvalue for me.
And if you can do that, you'realways going to be able to
charge at the most premium endof what your market read your
client, your industry, thecompany or organization is able
to bear.
And that is why, at 10 weeks ofgraduating from Indie

(40:39):
Collective 500 plus graduatesstrong we see our members on
average raise their rates by 25to 50% on things they're already
selling, because they're justgetting clear about how to
communicate that value exchange.
And when you peel back theonion, how do you do that?
Well, when you're clearing yourclient and you get under the
hood of the problems that you'resolving, what we do is help you

(41:01):
to, using our value quadrant toreally get crisp on the value
you're creating, bothqualitatively and quantitatively
, and we're going to help you toexpress that in terms that will
be viscerally understood byyour ideal client.
So Josh has already kind oftaken us in this direction.
We're going to continue in thisdirection.
Productization and value-basedpricing the rubber meets the

(41:24):
road when it comes to your salesright.
And this is the piece ofbuilding a great business that
frankly feels foreign to so manyof us that have come from
corporate or come from agenciesor done other things in career,
because we've got expertise insome disciplinary background but
haven't had to do the sellingourselves.
And the sales piece is probablythe most important part but

(41:46):
also is people's least favoritepart and, frankly, not super
effective if you're not doing itright.
So let's kind of double clickon the sales piece, josh, when
you get clear on yourproductization.
When you get clear on yourvalue-based pricing, how does it
make your sales process thatmuch more effective and also fun
?

Josh (42:06):
Yeah, I mean, at the end of the day, I think all problems
in sales are most profoundlyexperienced in doing cold
outbound.
So I'm sending notes to peoplethat you know I want to have
meetings with because I thinkthey should buy the thing that

(42:26):
I'm selling.
And when you send those notes,you know any limitations in your
products.
Your value proposition, youknow your testimony are laid
bare because you're literallygiven one sentence to a stranger
to say this is why we should beworking together and I think
doing outbound and outbound typeselling for products that have

(42:52):
product market fit, that arepriced well, that are replicable
, feels really simple.
It's like, hey, I know that asproduct market fit that are
priced well, that are replicable, feels really simple.
It's like, hey, I know that asa marketer, you're thinking
about how to deploy ad spendbecause we're getting to the
holiday season and, like you,are on the hook for like a big
goal that's probably set byfinance that you probably didn't
agree to and your whole bonusand you know promotion path is

(43:16):
contingent upon hitting thatnumber and you're not sure how
you're gonna do it and we havethis product.
You know that we show thisreturn for clients, just like
you in your space.
Here's a couple examples.
You know, do you have 15minutes to chat with me about
how that would look?
Um, because I I just feel likeyou're a great fit for what
we're doing, like being able tojust say, to assert, like I know

(43:39):
you have this problem.
You know you have this problem.
We both know you don't have astrategy for getting to that
problem reliably and if you dowell, that's great.
You know you're in the minorityby far, you know, and who
doesn't want to blow past theirgoal anyway.
You know, and at least see whatsomebody else is offering.
And when I meet you, I havesuch a clear story about how I

(44:00):
do it.
It's the same.
You know, I've case studies.
I've done it this way for otherpeople like you.
This is what they did.
This is the investment theymade.
This is the return that theysaw.
Call them and talk to them.
It's going to be great.
Everything that you see about me, about my company, about my
story, is that same thing,talking about that same thing.
All the thought leadership I do, all the LinkedIn posting my
website it's all echo effectaround.

(44:23):
This is the problem you'rethinking about.
You are in this role.
You are this persona at thistype of company tasked with this
problem, this much value iscreated if that problem is
solved.
Here's how we do it.
It works every time, and maybeit doesn't works every time, you
know, and, and maybe it doesn'twork every time and maybe
there's nuance and whatever, butlike that's you know when you,
when it gets to selling what itfeels like what it should be

(44:46):
like, is super crispunderstanding of everything that
you mentioned before icp marketyou know um budget.
You know problem set, totalconfidence in how your product
fits into that stack, um, andand when you're in that place,
it's a beautiful thing.
You know selling to peoplesomething that they want to

(45:07):
solve, a problem that they'reexistentially terrified of not
getting fixed is, you know it's,it's a high, unlike any other,
you know so it's.
I think that that's the joythat awaits on the other side of
this.
That's what's fun aboutbuilding a business and, believe
me, I've been a part of enoughbusinesses that have that before
and after where it's like, man,we're selling something that
the market just does not wantand like, yeah, you can get

(45:32):
meetings and yeah, you canscratch and claw your way to
clients, but this is just not akiller set of of solutions.
It's not creating value.
It's a.
It's a third problem.
It's a.
It's a.
It's a second tier problem.
It's a.
You know, you know, whatever.
And then that shift to oh wait,we've cracked it.
Now we have the thing thateverybody wants.
Now everybody's taking meetings.
Now we're getting dealsprogressing.
Now we're not feeling pushbackon pricing.

(45:53):
It just is a different thing.

Sam Lee (45:55):
Yeah, and I'll say just of my own experience.
I've been consulting more than10 years.
In the last five, I'vepersonally worked with more than
500 graduates of IndieCollective, helping them to
tighten up how they are doingsales.
The number one problem that Isee consistently, even among the
best consultants and coaches,is that when they show up for a

(46:16):
sales conversation, they grab atshort straws.
It's, I think, in some partabout fear, not knowing how to
lead the conversation like anexpert.
It's also, frankly, in anotherpart, just wanting to help right
, grab a short straw and getstarted so they can begin
delivering great work, butthat's just the wrong way to

(46:37):
lead a sales conversation.
Instead, once you've done thework we've described, you've
gotten clear on the client andtheir problems, you've gotten
clear on the types of repeatablesolutions that create outsized
value for them, you can reallyshow up as an expert, and what
we help you to do is ask thesmart questions, questions that
will establish your expertiseand why this decision maker

(47:01):
should be not just talking toyou but working with you and
follow on.
Questions that will allow youto help to uncover the value
that you can create by workingwith this decision maker and and
driving an engagement throughtheir organization.
Um, and it's when you take theinformation that you garner as
an expert, leading an expert-ledsales conversation, and you run

(47:22):
it through a value-basedproposal that you cannot just be
thinking about the value orcommunicating the value create,
but you can be consistentlycharging for it and not getting
negotiated out of the rate thatyou deserve.
So it's all these piecesstarting with thinking about the
client and their painkillerproblems, fashioning the right
repeatable solutions,understanding your

(47:42):
differentiation as an expert,knowing how to articulate the
value you create throughvalue-based pricing, and then
running an expert-led salesprocess that culminates with a
value-based proposal.
These are all things that wekind of believe in, that are
part of our better businessbuilding playbook at Indie
Collective, that allow you totranslate the productized

(48:03):
service into something that'srepeatable and that's going to
allow you to build a businessthat's going to maximize the
impact, income and theflexibility that you deserve at
this stage of your career.
I want to wrap up on a buzzytopic.
Everyone's talking aboutChatGPT.
Everyone's trying to thinkabout AI tools and how they can
leverage them.
Josh, how do you thinkconsultants and coaches can be

(48:25):
using these types of tools both,as they are thinking about
building their own next levelbusinesses, but also in
delivering the work for theirclients.

Josh (48:33):
Totally.
I mean, it's a topic that'snear and dear to my heart
Running a venture backed startup.
Let's be efficient.
Let's embrace what's new intechnology, experiencing future.
Shock right now about AI.
You're not paying attentionLike truly.
What is possible already isremarkable compared to where we

(48:55):
were a year or two ago.
It should be unsettling and Ithink a lot of people, because
of how unsettling it is, areturning away from it or not
spending as much time with it,which is fine.
I think you're just leaving alot of opportunity on the table
to become more efficient.
My company, my current company,the one that I founded most
recently we're 30 people andbusinesses raise 30 million

(49:19):
bucks.
We're trying to be efficientwith that capital.
We're trying to grow quickly.
The number of AI-drivenworkflows in our business has
increased probably, you know,just an order of magnitude, if
not more, over the last three tosix months, and you know we use
it for everything from you knowinviting a bot to every meeting

(49:40):
that transcribes, you know sortof the key action items,
summarizes them.
So the key action itemssummarizes them If it's a sales
meeting, puts them into our CRM,loads them into Slack, makes
sure that we're following up onthe associated tasks reaches out
to the individuals, to do allof that For a sole proprietor.
It should be the same thing.
It's like hey, every time Ihave a sales meeting, every time

(50:01):
I have a discovery session,every time I meet with a new
prospect, every time I meet withan advisor, I have this thing
on the call that's just going todo what a really smart
25-year-old would do for yousummarize these things.
Make sure you don't drop actionitems.
Make sure you have an ongoinglog of everything you're doing,
talk about selling.
Record every conversation thatyou have.
Don't lose the details.
Hey, this isn't a great timefor me.

(50:23):
Follow up with me in six months.
Don't forget to do that.
So AI is just so good alreadyat catching the details, and
there's so many tools that youcan explore here.
Just a few that we use Lindy,chorus, chatgpt, obviously, when
it comes to generating imagery.
When it comes to we use Notionfor all of our internal docs,

(50:43):
which has an amazing AI co-pilotfor completing ideas,
completing documents, projectplans, these sorts of things.
Like my wife works inentertainment totally different
industry she has to generatetreatments, memos, summaries of
situations.
What is possible with thesetools is really incredible and I
think, if you're not, there's alot of good stuff out there,

(51:06):
whether it's on YouTube orwhether you know there's other
places to find it.

(51:31):
But just be curious about andtry some of these tools, because
the top 10% of engineers arereally going to be the ones you
know, who remain, you know, andwho create just outsized impact
because of how much accelerationthey can get from these tools.
Engineers that aren't as goodare just going to be replaced,
and I think one of theinteresting things about being a

(51:52):
sole proprietor is, typicallyyou are in the top 10%, like the
people who raise their handsand say I want to do my own
thing typically are the mostqualified, the smartest and
therefore the most likely tobenefit from the outsized impact
that these tools give you.
You know, if you're at a bigagency or you're at a big
consultancy, like, okay, likeyou know, I don't think that the

(52:12):
you know the net impact, thereis just going to be margin for
the top.
But if you're a sole proprietor, this allows you to have a
scale that is far greater thanyou might have been able to
previously, while keeping yourcosts really low.
So I think everybody needs beasking how can I use these tools
to get more, to do more, tomove faster, how can I partner
with folks that can do the same?
You know, and it's just, it'san exciting time, as you know,

(52:37):
arresting as it can beexistentially for us.
You know, this is a great timeto be a sole proprietor.
For all those reasons is thereis disruption.
People are aware that they'repaying too much for things that
have become commodities due toAI, and you're in a position to
radically transform yourrecommendation, set things that
you do as a consequence.
So yeah, Great.

Sam Lee (53:00):
Well, I mean, as Josh said, if you're doing this
independent consulting andyou're finding your own success,
chances are you're in that topdecile, even that top 5% of
people that do what you do.
So no one, josh or I or anybodyelse, is going to say turn off
that big brain.
Ai is not here to replace you,but whether it's thinking about
the next chapter of yourbusiness and building a business

(53:22):
that will drive more impact,income and flexibility, or
whether it's in delivering thework right, once you've got that
repeatable solution, deliveringmore of the work with less of
your time, ai is so powerful andyou really can't afford to
neglect it or not learn it anduse it in ways that are going to
assist you in thoughtpartnership right, thinking

(53:43):
bigger and clarifying yourthinking around the direction of
your business and delivery,making sure you're efficiently
delivering the work so you'remaximizing the impact, income
and flexibility that you shouldbe achieving in your own
consulting or coaching practice.

Josh (53:58):
One other thing I would just add too, is like so, guests
, we talk about everybody's toptwo priorities.
I can tell you that almostevery executive out there is
being asked you know what's yourplan?

Sam Lee (54:08):
for AI and how are you?

Josh (54:09):
bringing AI into the organization around X.
If I'm a sales leader, how areyou using AI to make your sales
team more performant orefficient?
If you're a marketing leader,how are you using AI to generate
content or whatever?
So you?
are in a position to as a soleproprietor or as a consultant
running a small firm or whateverit is that you're doing, have
products around that right.
Be the one who comes up withsolutions for companies on how

(54:31):
to implement these changes andto take advantage of all of this
stuff, because there's so muchmoney there now, across any
domain you know, and that's youknow, that may be your front end
is, you know, an.
Ai readiness assessment of someform or an.
AI, you know readinessassessment of some form or an AI
opportunity analysis of someform.
That then leads to more of thework that you're used to,

(54:53):
because that stuff matters, butit's a great time to have the
flexibility to pivot as a soleproprietor.

Sam Lee (55:00):
Amazing.
Well, josh, thank you so muchfor taking the time today.
I hope everybody that's tunedin really is thinking bigger and
maybe differently about what'spossible for you and building
your consulting or coachingpractice, if you choose, to
productize.
I also hope that you feelequipped and empowered to get on
this path from the tips you'velearned today.

(55:22):
If you're interested inlearning more about this path of
productization or even gettinginvolved in an upcoming Indie
Collective cohort so you canaccess the coaching, the
accountability and our tried andtrue playbooks to get on this
path, check outIndieCollectiveco.
That's IndieCollectiveco, andyou can apply for upcoming

(55:42):
cohort and download additionalgreat resources that we make
available.
Thank you so much, josh, andwe'll see everybody on the next
episode of the ModernIndependent.
Thanks, sam.