Amber Voorhees on the Power of Hospice Care and the Lessons Learned Within

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Two microphones and make a full cast Two microphones
and you make a full cast.

Speaker 3 (00:28):
Hi, this is Joyce and this is Marybeth.
Welcome to the Modern Yogapodcast.
We have a very special guesttoday.
Her name is Amber Voorhees andshe is a yoga student at Modern
Yoga.
You've been practicing forquite a while way before COVID
right.

Speaker 1 (00:46):
Yeah, I think pretty close to when you opened.

Speaker 3 (00:49):
Yeah, excellent, I'll check that in a moment.

Speaker 2 (00:52):
Are you related to the most famous Voorhees of ever
?

Speaker 1 (00:56):
I am so impressed that you know that reference.
Yes, I'll tell you that we growup, we would get prank phone
calls every Friday, the 13th.
I'm asking if Jason was homeand we'd always say, oh, I'm
sorry he's off at camp.

Speaker 2 (01:14):
Oh, excellent answer.
So come on if everybody's noton board.
It's clearly a relative ofJason Voorhees of Camp Crystal
Lake fame.
Friday the 13th.
Oh, I didn't know we're makinglove while he was drowning.
I'm sorry, I digress.

Speaker 3 (01:34):
I didn't know that Jason's last name was Voorhees.

Speaker 2 (01:36):
Yes, I mean you should, joyce, that was a miss.

Speaker 3 (01:40):
Probably, if it were, if you were in school these
days, nobody would probably know, except for the rare.

Speaker 2 (01:48):
I don't know, yeah that was, you know, a lot.
For the time there wasn't thebig CGI, crazy, graphic-y stuff,
so those murders were scary.

Speaker 3 (01:59):
Yeah, I told you we digress, but back to Amber.
Amber, so I looked it up,thursday, november 17th 2016,.
You came to a hot power basicsclass, year one.
So, yeah, year one.
Yeah, about about what's madein November, about six months or

(02:22):
so in.
That's awesome.
Thank you for for continuing topractice and being part of the
community.

Speaker 1 (02:29):
Oh, absolutely.

Speaker 3 (02:31):
How, how do you, why did you first come to yoga and
how do you feel like it impactsyou?

Speaker 1 (02:40):
Well, I found modern yoga because it was located
between my job and my home.
So at the time I was theexecutive director of an
assisted living in Strongsvilleand I desperately needed to to
do some self-care.

Speaker 2 (03:00):
Well, kudos to you, because I bet there's like a
dairy queen in between your homeand your job too.

Speaker 3 (03:05):
I think the DQ is right across street from your
old job, right.

Speaker 1 (03:09):
Yeah, and the truth is I have practiced yoga on and
off since college, but at thetime, like I said, I just had a
very stressful job and I neededto do something for myself, and
I've been going, you know,pretty religiously ever since
and it really is a huge part ofmy just taking care of myself,

(03:33):
and my physical and mentalhealth depend on yoga and I'm a
walker.

Speaker 3 (03:40):
Are you?
Yeah, so is Mary Beth.
I am too.
I just have senior dogs rightnow and we don't walk very far,
but that's okay.

Speaker 2 (03:47):
I walked yesterday in Brexville before my class.
I always say let's walk aboutit.
Instead of let's talk about it,let's walk about it.

Speaker 3 (03:55):
I'm going to digress for a moment.
Mel, one of our teachers, wehad a meeting a couple of months
ago and she's like you justwant to meet at the park and
walk, and I was like that wouldbe amazing.
And not only was it really nice, it was a very productive
conversation, yeah.

Speaker 2 (04:12):
I have a couple of friends that have started doing
that, and it's a great idea.

Speaker 3 (04:16):
We don't spend it funny.

Speaker 2 (04:17):
We don't drink any alcohol or eat any carbs and you
know you get that rareopportunity to enjoy some nature
, some squirrels and stuff youdon't see every day, stuff in
some goose shit.
It's called connecting withmother earth.

Speaker 3 (04:33):
But, amber, you have a young one too, right?
Yeah, my daughter's 13.

Speaker 1 (04:39):
Oh wow.
Wow, geez, okay so she wasquite young when I started at my
daughter and I think I've onlymet her seven years now.

Speaker 3 (04:48):
I've seen her once or twice yeah.

Speaker 2 (04:50):
So you were.
It was a first grader at thetime, probably.

Speaker 1 (04:53):
Yeah, yeah, now she's on the verge of probably being
hellish.
Well, she's starting eighthgrade next week, so that's crazy
.

Speaker 3 (05:04):
Yeah, she's a good kid You're gonna need more yoga,
that's entirely possible.
Okay, though it's like that'swhen we all get a little.
You're not supposed to be likean adult when you're 13.

Speaker 1 (05:18):
Yeah, no, there's a lot happening, cognitively right
A lot of neurons and aspiring.

Speaker 2 (05:23):
Yeah, which is part of what we're having you here to
talk about, which is great,great segment.

Speaker 3 (05:28):
I met James when Ashley was 11.
And he describes it as the veryend of her very, very sweet era
.
And then, within about you know, the next six to 12 months, we
went into the preteen.
Fight or flight yeah, constant,but it's all good.

Speaker 2 (05:49):
The important thing, a little detail to remember is
that when Push came to shoveliterally because childbirth was
part of it, that little babywhose birthday is almost here,
your granddaughter is namedAlina.
What Joyce, alina Joyce.
Maybe that was Ashley's way ofsmoothing over the teenage years

(06:12):
.

Speaker 3 (06:14):
I think.
Well, I don't know if that wasthe specific intent, but it
works right Apparently well.
I don't know if everybody knew,but James knew that was her
middle name.
She had told us she was namingher Alina, but the middle name
was kind of up in the air to me.
And then she was born and shesent me a photo of her birth
certificate.

Speaker 2 (06:34):
And that's how you told me.
You just sent a photo of herbirth certificate and I sobbed.

Speaker 1 (06:38):
I was like oh, my gosh middle name Joyce, so sweet
.

Speaker 3 (06:44):
So which brings us to 2020.
I was just talking about wewere talking about 2020 and
teacher training.
The other day and I think itwas like last week or something.
It just really hit me.
Not that I haven't thoughtabout 2020, but you know, ashley
told us she was pregnant at thebeginning of the year.
We moved her home, we took herout of the University of Akron

(07:05):
and switched her to Tri-C.
The pandemic hit.
My dad went into the hospitalfor the first time in July and
then he went in again in Augusttwice.
The second time he never cameout.
My dad, or Alina, was born inAugust, august 27th, and then my
dad died in October.
So, right, and Amber, actuallyI talked to you quite a bit.

(07:30):
Well, we couldn't get close in2020, but you helped me navigate
some things in 2020 because mydad was going into a rehab and
then there was a possibility ofhim going into assisted care and
it never got to that pointbecause he passed.
But I knew that and I know nowhow difficult that was for me.

(07:55):
I can't imagine how difficultyour job is beyond the job, but
the emotional impact I guessthat's part of the job, that,
like I don't know how you keepyour head straight, so you
talked first about running theassisted living.

Speaker 2 (08:15):
Tell us what you do now as well, or the progression
of your profession.

Speaker 1 (08:21):
So I ran the assisted living for about four years and
then I just was reallystruggling with work life
balance.
As we mentioned, my daughterwas still quite young.
So I approached the owners ofthe company, who I have worked
for for many years.
Even before I was running theassisted living I worked for
them and I said, hey, I can't dothis forever and they're just

(08:46):
good people.
And they said, okay, hang inthere, let's see what else we
can come up with.
And really within three monthsthey approached me and said the
hospice that they own andoperate, which is called Cypress
Hospice, it's out of Berea.
They were looking for communityrelations, you know somebody to

(09:06):
build relationships, to provideeducation, to talk to families,
to talk to seniors, and it justseemed like a really good fit
for me.
So I have now been with Cypressfor four years.

Speaker 2 (09:21):
How nice to be able to be confident enough in your
job and your skills to go toyour owners and say this is how
I'm feeling, not worried thatthey're now going to fire you or
that they're going to punishyou, but and for them to respond
with hang in there, let's seewhat we can do with this.

Speaker 1 (09:42):
Yeah, I'd like to say that all of healthcare is like
that, but that would not be trueat all.
I'm very fortunate.
I've worked for the family foralmost 14 years 13 years, yeah.
And again, they're good people,yeah, so I'm very grateful.
So now I work for Cypress andit's really my job to have

(10:07):
relationships with the localassisted livings, the local
skilled facilities, the seniorcenters, the just in general
talking to people.
I talk to a lot of familiesabout hospice.
You know, a nurse in anassisted living may give
somebody my card and say, callAmber, and just start the

(10:27):
conversation.
What is hospice, what is end oflife care?
And I will say this I work ingeriatrics.
You know we do.
We specialize in older adults,we don't work with younger
people.
So I can't even imagine whatthat would be like to work with

(10:51):
someone end of life who's young.

Speaker 2 (10:53):
Right, that's a different story.

Speaker 1 (10:55):
Yeah, totally different story.

Speaker 2 (10:56):
But your job and your position is so valued because,
like I remember, when my dadfirst needed care, it all
happened kind of fast for us.
I mean, the illness happenedslowly.
He had dementia, but eventuallyan incident happened.
He went to a geriatric psychward at the hospital and then

(11:17):
went to a nursing home and thennever came home again and then a
couple years later when it wastime for hospice.
You know, the medicalprofessionals are so busy and so
overworked and there's notenough of them and a lot of this
process is wrote to them sothey don't maybe warn you or

(11:40):
prepare you for what these nextsteps are.
So I love that you know.
Basically, it sounds likethat's what your position is
about.

Speaker 1 (11:50):
Yes, and you're so right, we you know healthcare.
Everybody is overwhelmed, evenmore so now, after the pandemic
and you know, the other piece ofit is that we live in a youth
obsessed culture and our medicalprofessionals are taught to
cure, cure, cure Right.
It's such a shift to say, okay,we're not going to focus on

(12:12):
curative, we're going to talkabout making somebody
comfortable so that they canenjoy their last period of time
on this earth.
It's just a huge shift and evenyou know doctors, I think, are
ill prepared to even have thoseconversations.

Speaker 2 (12:27):
Absolutely.
You see and hear so many I meanwe all have friends with, with,
let's even just say parentsforget about the younger people
passing from diseases, thatthese poor people are clearly
not going to make it and doctorsare valiantly trying and I
understand your family evenmight be pressuring you to keep

(12:48):
fighting.
Keep trying.
It's a it's wonderful to knowthat there's an option you know
out there to to healthfully saylet go of this fight and enjoy
our time together.
We can say goodbye and feel alittle better about it.

Speaker 3 (13:08):
Do you feel like people generally avoid talking
about this until they have nochoice?

Speaker 1 (13:19):
Absolutely.
We're again youth obsessed.
It's such a shame that peopleused to die in their homes.
We used to have funerals in ourhomes.
Now we've medicalizedeverything.
People die in the hospital,connected to tubes and buttons.

(13:41):
We do not live in a culturewhere we talk about death, plan
for it.
We're not open about it.
Here's the thing we're allgoing to die.
It's part of this experiencethat we're having on this earth.

Speaker 2 (14:01):
Everybody wants to go to heaven, but no one wants to
go now.
You just don't want to let go.
You do cling to that.
If you don't die today, youmight not die tomorrow if we try
this Without thinking of well,this isn't fun today or tomorrow
, right, as you said, hooked upOf all people.

(14:24):
When I was walking yesterday,guy Fieri was on Brook Shields'
podcast called Now what he wastalking about his sister who
passed away from cancer young,but they made the decision.
It was a recurrence of cancer.
She made the decision to not dochemotherapy.
He was talking about at lengthhow special and wonderful that

(14:49):
was Then in her case, because ofher beliefs in life, they had
looked into and found a greenburial.
They did what you were justsaying, amber.
All her friends came andshrouded her in flowers After
she had passed.
She was in her own home.
All the friends came.
I'm not quite sure what they dowith the green burial.

(15:12):
He didn't really explain that,but to have this bleach-haired
motorcycle riding chef guy fullof tattoos talk about how lovely
hospice is and these otheroptions versus the clinical way
that most of us are used todying and having a funeral was
really refreshing.

Speaker 1 (15:33):
I mean it's so beautiful that she got to choose
how to end the time on thisearth.
I don't know if you've everheard of there's something
called a death doula.
You've all heard of doulas whohelp at birth, so it's really

(15:53):
just coming to this area, but inCalifornia, I think, has
probably the largest number ofdeath doulas.

Speaker 2 (16:02):
And doesn't that make perfect sense now to hear you
say that term out loud.

Speaker 1 (16:08):
And they're usually nurses who just want to dedicate
their time and energy tohelping somebody die with
dignity and to transition out ofthis life the way that they're
meant to.
It's really pretty cool.
So, yeah, Google it.

Speaker 2 (16:25):
death doula yeah, I sure will, I guess I wish and
nobody has a crystal ball, evendoctors and miracles happen all
the time but you kind of wishthe conversation might come a
little more easily.
For medical professionalstreating people to say this

(16:47):
isn't going anywhere except painand expense, and I don't think
that happens enough.

Speaker 3 (16:56):
Well, I was going to ask just on the flip side.
I mean, I know that there aredoctors who specifically work in
geriatrics, but really anydoctor can face dying patients,
and is that?
Are they prepared for it?

Speaker 2 (17:17):
Yeah, maybe they needed death doula the doctors?
Yeah, I think it is definitelyglossed over in medical school.

Speaker 1 (17:24):
I really don't think that there is enough training,
because they do study medicine.

Speaker 2 (17:29):
Yes, yes right.

Speaker 1 (17:30):
They're objective is to cure.
I'm supposed to medicate thisproblem.

Speaker 2 (17:34):
I'm supposed to surgically fix this problem.

Speaker 1 (17:36):
Yeah, but even in my training.
So I have a master's degree insocial work.
I only had one class in deathand dying.

Speaker 2 (17:46):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (17:47):
And it was awesome and I'm so glad that I took the
class.
And I will say it was not myfocus, it was nothing that I was
interested in, but to yourpoint, I think culturally, in
any medical field, we need tohave more education and
communication and talk aboutdeath and dying.

Speaker 2 (18:10):
Gary, though we don't want to let go.
I'm in a happy, good mood today.
I don't want to think aboutlosing somebody.

Speaker 3 (18:20):
Push your cord in Mary Beth.

Speaker 2 (18:24):
My cord is better, no .

Speaker 3 (18:27):
It's okay though I don't want to digress too much
for technical problems.
So you're now working less inassisted living in a hospice
facility and more with thepublic.
So I think we all know whathospice is.

(18:53):
But how do you describe hospice?

Speaker 1 (18:56):
Oh, good question.
So I will tell you this.
Medicare's guideline is thatsomebody with the normal
progression of their diseasewould have six months or less to
live.
So that's how somebodyqualifies.
Now, with that said, somebodymay qualify and be on hospice

(19:16):
for a year and a half.
Right, it doesn't mean thatthey will die in six months, but
that's sort of the guidelinethat somebody has a terminal
disease, they've opted not to doaggressive treatment and with
the normal progression theywould have six months or less to
live.
And the services that hospiceprovides are nurses, nurses'

(19:40):
aides to come in and help withbathing, dressing, grooming,
polish someone's nails.
We have chaplains to providespiritual care.
We have social workers, evenvolunteers, who will just come
in and sit and read or takesomebody outside.
So it's really all hands ondeck, providing physical and

(20:04):
emotional spiritual care both tothe patient and their families.

Speaker 2 (20:09):
Yeah, I was just going to say.
I mean almost everybody I knowhas.
If they have a hospice story,it's a wonderful one.
But one of the things that'shelpful is often we feel guilty
when our loved ones in thehospital because they're gross
and there's tubes and there'sblood and not everybody's
unsqueamish about that stuff.
So just the loving care ofcoming in and seeing your dad

(20:34):
smelling shaving cream he wasjust shaved, his hair's combed,
whether he's conscious orunconscious, it enables you to
get closer, which is important,because then you've got the
guilt on top of everything else.

Speaker 1 (20:46):
Absolutely, and our team, because we're more
comfortable with this phase oflife.
We can ask the questions thatwe might say to a patient how
are you processing or inquireabout their spiritual beliefs,
where family might want to dothat but is uncomfortable to do
that, it's really powerful tohave a team come in and to be

(21:11):
comfortable with what'shappening and normalize things.

Speaker 2 (21:15):
That's exactly it Normalize.
We were in hospice with my dadfor over two weeks and we
laughed, we cried, we did whatwe called hospice shopping
online.
So it was a very big time inthe family.
And then those nurses areamazing at figuring out like.

(21:35):
I remember the first week ourhospice Paula who I'm Facebook
friends with, of course now saidyou know she didn't work the
weekend.
She said I'll see you Monday.
The following Friday she saidlast week I said I'd see you
Monday.
I'm not sure I'm going to seeyou Monday.
So it was preparing us that Icould.
And she was right on I think mydad died Tuesday morning at 6am

(21:58):
.
It might have been the Monday,but I think it was the Tuesday.

Speaker 3 (22:03):
Amber, I was just going to ask before if working
more with the public and lesswith families and patients, like
in hospice, was less stressfulfor you.
But you mentioned that, likeyou, your teams, people who work
in hospice are obviously alittle bit more comfortable with

(22:25):
death.
Is that training or experience,or how do you get there?
Do you know what I mean?
Because that seems like a hugeleap.

Speaker 1 (22:37):
Yes, I think you know we always say it really is a
calling.
You know, I think there arepeople who are called to work
with people who have dementia.
You know that takes anincredible amount of patience.
And I think there are peoplewho are called to work at end of
life.
Yes, of course we providetraining, but sometimes we train

(22:58):
someone and it's pretty clearit's not a good fit, right?
Yeah, it's, it's, we call itthe hospice heart.
Some people are meant to do itand some, some people aren't.
And I know, you know, when I sayI work in hospice everybody
thinks, oh God, you know it's sodepressing.
But I'll tell you the peoplethat I work with, you know, if

(23:21):
you came to our office you wouldhear laughter and camaraderie.
And I work with kind,compassionate people and people
who who really understand thatlife is short and precious and
just, you know, sort of liveaccording to that idea that, hey

(23:43):
, this time here is short, let'smake it the best it could be.
Yeah, so it sounds terrible,but it's really quite wonderful.

Speaker 3 (23:53):
Do you is is mental health care part of either what
is offered to hospice workers,or is it something that you
recommend, like how does I knowthat it's way more normal to you
than it is to me, but it'sstill.
It's still a lot, right?
I mean, all of our jobs arestill a lot.

(24:14):
I think yours can take it toits own level, but what is
recommended for mental health?

Speaker 1 (24:24):
Well, we do, maybe once a year have I forget what
we call it.
It might be like a memorialservice, a time when the whole
team gets together and kind ofprocesses things and we'll talk
about, you know, the nurses willtalk about their favorite
patients or just kind of processthings.

(24:47):
You know, next week we'rehaving a staff picnic and that's
not necessarily to addressgrief and loss, but it's really
just to give everyone anopportunity to see each other
and to laugh and yeah, and tobuild team.
And then I think the otherpiece of it is just, of course,

(25:07):
encouraging people to haveself-care to, you know, whatever
, practice yoga or walk or havetheir own counselor.

Speaker 3 (25:17):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (25:19):
But that's.
I think that should be a partof healthcare in general.
If you work in healthcare youhave got to do some kind of
self-care and notoriously peoplein healthcare do not right.
They're busy taking care ofother people.
They always say nurses are theabsolute worst patients.
I think that's entirely true,because they're too busy taking

(25:40):
care of everybody else.

Speaker 2 (25:41):
Right.
And then they resort to juststress measures you know, like
poor eating and not having timeto exercise, or you'll see the
nurses outside smoking together.

Speaker 1 (25:51):
Smoking, oh my gosh.
Yes, it's so crazy, isn't it?

Speaker 3 (25:57):
Yeah, when I see young people smoking, I'm like
it just blows my mind.
You know, I guess I have alittle bit more understanding
for someone in our age rangebecause, well, I mean, we're not
that old.

Speaker 2 (26:12):
But it was bad when we were kids, because I remember
always trying to get my dad toquit.
But the generation before Imean our mom's generation they
smoked when they were pregnant,Right, oh?

Speaker 1 (26:21):
yeah, absolutely.
You know, once upon a timethere were, there were ash trays
at nurses' stations.
Oh, wow, yeah, and can you?

Speaker 2 (26:30):
I can't remember because I didn't fly much as a
kid, but oh my God.
Airplane Like I can't stand tobe on the airplane now.
I can't imagine it with thatcloud of smoke.

Speaker 3 (26:41):
Yes, smoking is such a weird thing when people are in
hospice, do they?
I mean, how do you know if it'snever really a sudden thing, is
it?
How are the patients?
We're talking a lot aboutfamilies and caregivers.
How are the patients?
Like all of a sudden we'removing to hospice.

Speaker 1 (27:03):
Yeah, well again, I work in geriatrics so I can tell
you much of my experience isthat older adults will say I've
lived a good life, I'm done yeah.
And more often than not it'sthe family who's saying Mom,

(27:25):
keep pushing, I'm not ready tosay goodbye.
Yeah, and that's not 100%, butit's pretty common.

Speaker 2 (27:34):
And at least some people are getting to an age,
just in numbers, where they'relike it's time.
I mean, let's say I'm 88.
How much longer?
I'm not probably going to be108.
So we're getting there, yeah.

Speaker 1 (27:49):
But of course that's not 100%, but it is a large part
of who we serve, gosh, if I hita dollar for every time an
elderly person said to me, honey, don't get old, I'd be rich.

Speaker 3 (28:05):
They're not going to like it.
I don't know how you do that.
Well, how old is the oldestpatient you've ever had?

Speaker 1 (28:15):
Well, she's not a patient of ours because she's
not ready for hospice, but atone of the facilities that I do
a lot with there's a residentwho's 108.

Speaker 2 (28:23):
Oh my gosh, it's so funny.
I just said 108 as a joke.

Speaker 1 (28:27):
Yeah, no, she's 108.
And I ask her, okay, what's thesecret?
And she said honey, just keepmoving.

Speaker 3 (28:37):
We hear that all the time.
Right yeah, Wow.

Speaker 2 (28:41):
And at this age we start to hear our elderly say I
hope I don't live that long.

Speaker 1 (28:45):
I don't want to live that long yeah.

Speaker 3 (28:48):
But there's probably a difference.
I mean, there has to be adifference between somebody who
is relatively healthy and mobileversus somebody who's on 20
medications, like my dad was,and mobility is an issue.
Nobody wants to be like that,Like if your head's pretty clear
and your body is working, thenI can't imagine it.

(29:12):
You'd want to go right.

Speaker 1 (29:16):
I can tell you from working with the elderly for
many, many years that I haveseen 70-year-olds who are at
death's door they look likethey're 100, and I've seen
100-year-olds who are stillmoving and active and they look
like they're 70.
So, yes, 100%.
It's all relative to health andhow engaged you are.

(29:39):
Yeah, we shouldn't really thinkof the number yeah, and for me
that's part of talking aboutyoga and walking and self-care.
You have always been active andfor a long time that was vanity
, right, like I just wanted tolook good.
But now it's really in middleage, it's totally different.

(30:00):
I want to be healthy andenergetic and I want to live.
Oh true.

Speaker 2 (30:07):
That is the big change at this age for me too,
is I've always been dieting andeverything for vanity, and now
it's like I don't even eat tolose weight.
I eat because I'm losing musclemass.
That changes what I eat and howI exercise, just to be able to
be mobile and healthy and stuff,and it's like wow, when did
that?

Speaker 1 (30:26):
happen.
Yes, right, it's a big shift.
I don't even want to be smaller.

Speaker 2 (30:30):
I don't give a shit about that anymore.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (30:34):
It's interesting, though, how I don't know what
you learned.
We just changed.
That's all.
This is where we're at in life,but yeah, it does seem like
fitness is very vain early inlife, when it's easy to be fit
Fitness belly into my pants,yeah.
And then you're worried aboutyour arteries, yes, yes.

Speaker 2 (30:57):
And your genetics and yeah.

Speaker 3 (31:00):
Well, I mean, what do you always say, Mary Beth,
about?

Speaker 2 (31:03):
genetics.
The genetics loads the gun andyour behaviors can pull the
trigger.
That was a quote from Dr BillFrankel, a fellow I used to know
in the insurance business, inthe wellness business.

Speaker 3 (31:19):
Amber, how do you feel about the afterlife?
Oh, wow.

Speaker 2 (31:23):
Big question from Joyce.

Speaker 1 (31:24):
Yeah, Well, yeah, go for it.
I was raised a prettyconservative Christian and it
took me many years to be able tosay out loud I'm not Christian
and to feel comfortable Like thewrath of God wasn't going to
strike me down.

(31:44):
So I'm not Christian.
I do believe there's more thanwe could really process.
I think our brains are smalland I feel very confident
there's more than this, but Ican't.
I don't know what it is and Idon't believe that anybody on

(32:05):
this earth really does, but Idefinitely have had experiences
in my life that confirm this,isn't it?
So I know that's not a veryconcrete answer, but it is
though I think, like you justsaid, you're not Christian
anymore.

Speaker 3 (32:24):
That's big.

Speaker 2 (32:26):
I mean Christian.
Any faith, I believe, allowsfor this giant, not
understandable mystery, and so,if that's the case, there can't
be any boundaries to the belief.
Really, you know and that'sanother thing of middle age,

(32:48):
like getting in touch enoughwith yourself.
You've seen enough of the workin your own life of something
extra, but who or what that isor is called or what the rules
are around it.
Like I said, every religionallows for things that can't be
explained.
So even these rules andparameters, you have to

(33:10):
acknowledge there can be flawand mystery in it.

Speaker 1 (33:14):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (33:15):
And I think that's our generation too, like kind of
pushing back at our parents'generation, of living by those
rules and not sort of exploringmaybe that the rules aren't
always 100% fact or exactly whathappens.
I know, when my dad was dying,my mom insisted on having him

(33:41):
get last rights by a Catholicpriest, and my brother's and I
well, my one brother wasn'tthere yet but my brother and I
were like what?
You haven't even been to church, and not even on Christmas for
years.

Speaker 2 (33:54):
You know Just ingrained in her that that
matter.

Speaker 3 (33:58):
And like but I got it .
It's like, okay, like that'snot going to hurt anything, he
can have last rights.
But it was also like they hadto find a priest.
We were at UH and I justassumed that there was a priest
or a chaplain or somebody clergyon staff, but there is not.
They have relationships withdifferent congregations in the
area and so then it was thisCatholic priest who we never met

(34:22):
.

Speaker 2 (34:22):
It was just like this whole weird ceremonious kind of
it felt like a little like abox to check, to get in.
Yeah, yeah, and then my mom,your dad, to have his ticket
stamped, yeah.

Speaker 3 (34:35):
And then my mom like and I you know everybody handles
this stuff, I guess maybe theirown way, but she was here and
there asking my dad if he wasseeing his parents or his
brothers, and she was lookingfor that, and it was just, and
again, it's how she dealt withit and it made her feel better.

(34:58):
But thinking about that, evenwitnessing it, was like what are
you looking for here?
Proof of the afterlife, like Idon't know.

Speaker 2 (35:08):
I don't know which.
As Amber just said, like ourbrains cannot conceive and
nobody can confirm, I mean,there are people who say they've
been to the other side and beenback.
We don't know, and that's whywe're afraid to talk about death
, because we don't know what'snext.

Speaker 1 (35:26):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (35:27):
You believe what you?

Speaker 1 (35:28):
believe, but I think in a lot of ways, just like we
don't talk about death and wealso don't talk about unless
you're in a group who believesimilarly to you we don't really
talk about afterlife or faith,again, unless you're with the
people that you practice withRight.

Speaker 2 (35:48):
You know they're going to kind of agree with you
and you all believe the samething yeah.

Speaker 1 (35:52):
And that's a shame, right.
What amazing conversations wecould be having.

Speaker 3 (35:56):
Right, well then you leave those Because we're not
talking about it.
You try to have thoseconversations on the deathbed
and sometimes and nobody's attheir best like your families.

Speaker 2 (36:10):
Listen, even the best of families.
Everybody, as you just said,joyce processes these things
differently, so you're all in adifferent place.
It's easy to argue and not playnice.

Speaker 3 (36:22):
Yeah, I know.
In the case of my dad, he hadso many problems and had had
them for so long that he hadbypass surgery in 2001 and had a
really rough recovery.
He was diagnosed withperipheral artery disease not
long before that and there wereI'm not kidding you, it was

(36:46):
probably the next 10 years.
If my phone rang and my mom'sname came up or the house phone
came up, my heart, my stomachjust dropped because it just
wasn't good.
But my dad kept.
I don't know, beating is theright word, but he kept as his

(37:07):
primary care physician.
So I did a virtual a couple oftimes with my mom, with the
primary care physician, becausemy mom needed that closure to
talk.
Have him talk her through mydad's end of life, which he
wasn't really part of.
But my dad just wanted to bemandated.
He wanted to get theirmedication, take it.

(37:28):
He didn't really ever listen toany.
He heard what he wanted to hear.
He was also a type 2 diabetic.
He had lots of things going onand if a doctor said, make sure
to eat breakfast every day, hewould find the cheapest all you
can eat breakfast and eat all hecould eat, because that's

(37:49):
essentially the instructions.
There wasn't a really trueeffort on making his lifestyle
any better.

Speaker 2 (37:56):
Yeah, the health versus the medicating my mom and
her generation, I feel, are thesame way Give me.
I need the pill to sleep, Ineed a pill for weight loss.
I need a pill to stop this painin my shoulder.

Speaker 3 (38:06):
Yeah, my mom told me the other day that her back has
been hurting and I said how?
Where?
Because I can help her a littlebit.
And she's like I'm going to thedoctor next week and it's like,
okay.
So, anyhow, my dad had beenbeating things for so long when
this process started, with himgoing to the hospital a couple

(38:27):
of times over the summer.
It wasn't.
It wasn't a big, it was a bigdeal, but it wasn't surprising.
You didn't think it was the endof his life, absolutely not.
And we thought, even going intohis final surgery, that he was
going to end up with just a.
His quality of life was goingto be diminished even more than

(38:51):
it was, but he was going to getthrough this as well.
It was going to be more tomanage.
It was just going to be alongthe lines of what my dad had
been doing for the last 20 years, and so his death was very
Almost shocking too, but itwasn't because 20 years ago it

(39:15):
was like, oh my God, this iskilling him.
It was just really weird.
And I feel like, looking back,all the signs were there, but
they just the pieces weren't.
The logic wasn't put together.
For one reason or another.
My dad had been dying for atleast a year, if not before it,

(39:35):
more than that.
But here we were at the veryend being told he wasn't we were
going to see him in cardiac orin that cardiac, but in ICU and
an event was coming out and allof that.
That was it.
We didn't and I don't.
That was it.
We were very, very lucky thathe came out of the anesthesia.

(40:01):
He was under because he didn't.
They gave him four doses of, orthree doses of, narcan and he
wasn't responding at all andthey were like nobody doesn't
respond to this, so there's nopoint in even doing this again.
And that was probably atsomewhere between 9 and 10 pm
and at one o'clock in themorning he started shaking his

(40:22):
head, yes and no.
Because we kept talking to him,because everybody says, or
everybody, I've heard a lot,we've heard a lot that they can
hear that hearing is one of thelast things to go.
So we kept talking to him andat one point he started shaking
his head, yes or no, or whatever, and it was like dad, can you
hear us?
And he said yeah, and I waslike did you hear last rights?

(40:45):
And he's like yeah, so he mighthave heard most of what was
going on the whole time.
We don't know, because hecouldn't talk right, he just
couldn't maybe move or awaken.

Speaker 2 (40:55):
So we were, which just goes to show you as much as
we know.
We don't know.

Speaker 3 (40:58):
We don't know.
Yeah, so we were lucky to havethose last six to eight hours
with him with a little bit ofcommunication.
But when you have a, we couldhave some of the end of life
conversations with him, but notfully.
He couldn't talk.
Anything else could answer yesand no to.

(41:20):
We could ask him.

Speaker 2 (41:21):
And you got up even that day and brushed your teeth,
not knowing this was the finalgoodbye.
So you're not even prepared tohave a conversation because
you're like wait, what Rightexactly?

Speaker 3 (41:33):
But, yeah, talking, I don't even know that he would
have talked about death otherthan like, well, when I die, I
want to be buried in theApparently.
I didn't know this either.
He wanted to be buried atRitman, at the military cemetery
, and my mom at some point hadsaid do you want to be cremated,

(41:55):
do you want to be a traditionalburial?
And he was like what do I care,I'll be dead.
And that was about the mostsubstance we could get out of my
dad.
Well, sad, only death Right.

Speaker 1 (42:09):
And that's generational too, right.

Speaker 3 (42:12):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (42:12):
Baby boomers are much less, I think, likely to have
those conversations than othergenerations, hopefully, and I
also think you're talking aboutyour dad's chronic illness, and
so many Americans have chronicdisease towards end of life and
live many years with thesechronic and often debilitating

(42:35):
diseases.
I like to think there's aparadigm shift and that us, our
age group and younger people, Ilike to think, are talking and
thinking about health andwellness and wellness right,
living a different lifestyle.

(42:56):
I don't know if it's true, butI like to think it is.

Speaker 2 (43:00):
And just our parents.
It's not that they didn't careabout living a healthy lifestyle
, but they were told things werehealthy.
The processed foods werehealthy.

Speaker 1 (43:08):
They were the most convenient thing ever.

Speaker 2 (43:11):
And these medications that came they didn't used to
have access to.
So this is wonderful for health, and it's only in hindsight
that we can see the shit show,the chemical shit show that food
processing has been and somemedications.

Speaker 3 (43:31):
And speaking of the chemical shit show, have you
seen?
Medicine keeps somebody alive,maybe too long.

Speaker 1 (43:44):
Oh gosh, I mean working in geriatrics.
I have seen many, many things,you know.
Even I had a 92-year-oldresident who had colon cancer
and her family convinced her tohave a colostomy bag.
She didn't want that, shewanted to just, you know, live

(44:08):
comfortably.
But she, you know, and again itgoes back to the family, family
not being able to say okay, soyes, absolutely.
We again in this culture oftendo too much.

Speaker 3 (44:25):
I'm facing that with my dogs and I know it's not the
same, but they're both seniordogs.

Speaker 2 (44:32):
That's why pets are a great training for how we treat
each other and we love themlike family Of course you do.

Speaker 3 (44:41):
And you don't want them to suffer.
Chloe, right, chloe hascongestive heart failure and she
and so she was diagnosed inJanuary of 22.
And my vet, who I love, saidyou know, she probably has six
months or so.
And here we are, a year and ahalf later, more than a year and

(45:03):
a half later.
None of her medications havestopped or have changed, and you
know, but she's definitelylosing muscle mass and that's
more indicative of age.
She's going to be 13 prettysoon, but she still enjoys the
things that she enjoy.
Like, I had a talk with him acouple of weeks ago because she

(45:23):
had been having accidents in theliving room, which was very,
very new, and I just I had a bitof a meltdown because, like she
was having accidents when wewere home, and so what's you
know?
Like what's going on, you know?
And basically he said, as longas she's enjoying what she's

(45:44):
enjoying, the accidents arebothering you more than they
bother her, and so, like youhave to balance that out and it
was I think part of it wassomething that that maybe we had
been putting in their food orsomething, because we'll put
some cheese or tuna or somethingin their food because she's
very hard to medicate and so itmight have been.

(46:05):
You know, something like that.
It's definitely settled downand I've gotten like puppy pads
and it's not ideal.
We have puppy pads in theliving room and she doesn't have
accidents that often, but whenshe does, that's way easier for
us to deal with that thancleaning it up off the floor.
But it's, you know, one of ourdogs, our first dog, our family
dog.
My mom kept like she justcouldn't do it and Sally was so

(46:31):
skinny, it was like it was sopast time that I just and again,
this is a pet I, you know, whenpeople are in high stress
situations, looking at a familymember and medicine is available
and this machine is available,it's just like I can't imagine
how difficult that can be toknow when is when, when is

(46:54):
enough, especially when there'sa family, not like a person or
two, but like a whole group ofpeople that are under high
stress and probably not gettingalong.
You know, sometimes I'm sureyou've seen some good family
fights oh, absolutely Likethat's got to be tough, and then
the patient is laying therelike, sometimes not being of

(47:16):
sound mind or even consciousSure.

Speaker 2 (47:20):
And this is hard because we're talking about
middle age and ourselves rightnow.
We are that patient pretty soonand it bears us thinking now
like now.
Joyce and I don't have kids ofour own.
We have stepkids and grandkids,so there's family.
But I got to always think of mysisters.
Sometimes, the decisions thatwe talk about with our parents,

(47:44):
I want to say I can't wait tillyou're 88 and Zach and Matt and
Katie are bullying you andtelling you what to do.
I mean, we have to acknowledgethat our parents were actually
human beings who raised ussuccessfully and have thoughts
of their own.
Not everybody does.
There's dementia, there'sadvanced illness, but that's

(48:04):
something to navigate to right,that letting people make their
decision if they're of soundmind to do so.

Speaker 1 (48:11):
Yes, and we need to ask questions right and not just
gloss over, you know.
Let me back up.
I started my career in mentalhealth and I worked in emergency
rooms doing psych evales and Iworked on psychiatric units.
I had no intention of workingwith the elderly and one of the
units I was working on wastransitioning to gyro psych and

(48:34):
so they started doing all thistraining and I thought, oh God,
you know I don't want to do this, but I ended up loving it.
And, to your point, our olderadults they have so much wisdom
and knowledge, if we just, youknow, shut up and listen, that
we can learn so so much from ourolder adults.

Speaker 2 (48:58):
And they stop telling us, because we I'm guilty of it
we bark back at them, roll oureyes and tell them what an idiot
they are about things, becauselife has moved on.
Yes, yes.

Speaker 3 (49:10):
I think it's different when it's not your
parent, though right Like that'sprobably true.

Speaker 1 (49:14):
Right, there's all kinds of emotional baggage
associated with parents and,yeah, it's very true.

Speaker 2 (49:23):
So that start for you in mental health probably makes
a big difference in what you do.

Speaker 1 (49:29):
Just that understanding that you know,
that's probably true, andbecause, of course, older adults
have mental health issues,there's a great deal of
depression in the oldercommunities that often goes
undiagnosed and, you know,ignored.
Because even in the medicalcommunity we sort of disregard

(49:50):
older adults.
You know, oh well, you're 80.
That's gonna hurt as opposed tofinding out.
Well, why does it hurt?

Speaker 2 (49:57):
Right right.

Speaker 1 (49:58):
You know that there might be a chemical imbalance.
Yeah, yeah, and we need, weneed more nurses and doctors to
go into geriatrics.
That's really a desperate pain,so much sense.

Speaker 3 (50:10):
Yeah, that makes so much sense On the lines of that.
It frustrates me when peoplesay like I can't do yoga because
I can't bend over or I'm in toomuch pain, and it's like why is
that?
Okay, you know, if you're 50and you're in pain every day,

(50:33):
like 50 isn't old, right.
And even if you're in pain at70 or 80, like do something Well
.

Speaker 2 (50:42):
I do think the culture has changed a little
from our parents' generation inthat we are more comfortable
saying to our doctor this orthis If I do this, what about
this?
Right, I saw this on theinternet.
I'm sure it annoys them, but Isaw this on the internet.
What do you think about it?
And at least start aconversation.
A lot of our parents you knowit's like the Pope or the king,

(51:05):
Like they won't let the doctor,absolutely.

Speaker 1 (51:08):
The doctor said I should take this, so that's like
there's no question you have totake it, you know what it is?

Speaker 2 (51:13):
Do you know why?
Do you know that he interactswith anything?
Well, no, they just said totake it.

Speaker 1 (51:19):
But you're right, you know, unfortunately we do ask
questions and ask foralternatives, and because that
is really important, that's alot Amber, Like that's just a
lot.

Speaker 2 (51:34):
I'm talking about neurons and things.
Didn't you have some fancyscience to share with us?

Speaker 1 (51:39):
Well so, for in my job I do what's called
continuing education for nursesand social workers.
You know part of stayingconnected to the community is
providing education.
So originally right when Imentioned to Joyce that I would
be game to have to do thepodcast, what I mentioned was I

(52:00):
do a talk on neuroplasticity andit's probably my favorite talk
that I give because it's reallyempowering that we're that, you
know, working in mental health.
We, for decades, have knownthat.
You know as you age you startto lose some connections, but

(52:27):
it's not inevitable, because nowwhat we know is that new
connections can be madethroughout life.
They used to think that onceyou were, you know, you were a
kid and your brain grew andchanged and then it stopped and
then you just had what you had.
But now we know that's not trueand even with folks who have,
like brain injury or stroke, youknow there's opportunity for

(52:48):
the brain to grow newconnections to work around
itself work around.

Speaker 2 (52:53):
Yes, so break down the word neuroplasticity.

Speaker 1 (52:59):
So neuro meaning the neural connections, and
plasticity meaning the abilityto change or to be flexible.
So a rigid brain is anunhealthy brain.
A brain with dementia right, weknow is full of plaques and
tangles blocking connections.
A flexible brain is a healthybrain where new connections can

(53:24):
be made.
I'm digressing for a moment,but I do think it's worth noting
.
I also do a lot of education ondementia because obviously it's
so prevalent with our elderly,and a lot of the new research.
There are quite a fewresearchers who are referring to
some forms of dementia as typethree diabetes.

(53:45):
Wow, which is reallyfascinating, as we're talking
about, you know, health andwellness and being proactive,
whether it's diet and exercisethat there are.
You know it's right, we havegenetics, but there's also

(54:07):
epigenetics, right, where, likeyou said, the gun is loaded.
But what we do determineswhether or not we pull the
trigger.

Speaker 3 (54:19):
I know we mentioned smoking.
What are some of your like?
Big nos or big, yeses.

Speaker 1 (54:26):
As far as like keeping your body and your brain
, you know, going in the rightdirection, yeah, so I feel like
when I do the talk onneuroplasticity, you know I'm
talking to nurses and socialworkers and I feel like when I
say this everyone kind of goes.
But one of the biggest, mostpowerful things you can do for

(54:51):
your brain health is meditation.

Speaker 3 (54:54):
Yes.

Speaker 1 (54:55):
Just sit quietly.
It really is.
You know, between exercise andmeditation that is like a bubble
bath for your brain.
Because we are just right, wehave constant stimulation,
constant information coming atus.
We're addicted to our phones,you know.

(55:16):
The news is 24 hours a day, ourwork is 24 hours a day.
It is, it's and it's really toomuch.
So if you want your brain tocreate new pathways, you have to
stop.
You have to just, you have tomeditate.
You have to sit quietly.
It can be a guided meditation,it can be silent and honestly,

(55:41):
10 minutes a day will will beenough to to put you on the
right path.
You don't have to meditate foran hour a day, but you do have
to sit quietly and let yourbrain rest.

Speaker 3 (55:53):
So you, you have a meditation practice then.

Speaker 1 (55:56):
I do.

Speaker 3 (55:57):
And how long have you been meditating?

Speaker 1 (56:00):
Probably only a couple of years and, to be
honest, sometimes it's onlyeight minutes a day.
Sometimes I don't even reach 10minutes.
But yeah, and like I said,nurses and social workers don't
want to hear that they don'thave 10 minutes a day, but it's
incredibly powerful.

Speaker 3 (56:19):
Yeah, oh, yeah.
That's so awesome to hear that.
The bubble bath for your brain,yeah, I love that I've already
stolen.

Speaker 2 (56:31):
I am so fortunate because I don't work a normal
morning job, and so just thisyear I started letting myself
wake up period and the phonedoesn't get grabbed and the TV
doesn't get turned on and I justlay there and wake up like when
you're a kid and it's notschool time.

(56:54):
You just wake up and wake upslowly, and my windows are
usually open, so there's thebirds and there's the breeze,
and I know that most peoplecan't do that.
They have to be somewhere atsix or seven or eight.
But that's my version of it,because I'm not a great
meditator on purpose either, butso is a walk, absolutely.

Speaker 1 (57:17):
Yeah, it doesn't have to be a traditional sit, cross
your legs and sit, but I thinkjust the act of disconnecting
and being present in the moment,like you said, listening to the
birds, and being here now.
We live in the future.
What's next Planning,organizing that level of anxiety

(57:41):
that we all feel just becauseof the way, the culture that we
live in?
And we have to be proactive todisconnect from that.

Speaker 2 (57:52):
And it's funny.
But with food like the buzzwordnow, with intermittent fasting
that after so many hours yourcells start to sort of eat
themselves like fix the badstuff, and that's what
meditation can be, for yourbrain is just fasting, fasting
from everything from deliberatethinking for a while.

Speaker 1 (58:13):
That is a great way to look at it, that you're
letting your brain.

Speaker 2 (58:18):
Is that autophagy that they talk about with
intermittent fasting?
Is that being talked about withbrain health as well?

Speaker 1 (58:25):
That's interesting.
Not yet, but I feel like thatprobably is coming, although, to
your point, some of theresearchers who are talking
about dementia as a type 3diabetes will say if they had a
loved one who was havingcognitive issues, the first
thing they would do is to tellthem to fast or to go on low

(58:47):
carb diet Would be the firstthing that they would do.
Now, there isn't science yet toprove that, but they're
researching it, so I think theanswer will be eventually, yes,
that that will be a big part ofit and it's fascinating.
So, working in dementia care,almost every 90% of the dementia

(59:08):
folks I've worked with theycrave sweets.
They cannot get enough icecream and cookies.
So it's interesting because itcertainly speaks to being a
sugar burner right that theyreally need that fix.

Speaker 3 (59:24):
Sugar is probably not the best answer.
All the time, though, right.

Speaker 1 (59:28):
No, although I think at some point.

Speaker 2 (59:31):
Right by that point, Because, yeah, my dad, part of
the dementia is the wanderingand sometimes it's like here's a
cookie hat, let's go this way,so it works.
And eating is a problem.
I used to laugh when my dad wasstill in nursing homes and I
know it's I've probably saidthis before and I know it's
probably a cost issue, but togive these old people spaghetti

(59:55):
noodles, can we just use somerigatoni that they can stab on a
fork?
So you've got all these peoplephysically and mentally disabled
trying to do spaghetti, whichis hilarious.
And who does the laundry?
Not a bleach.

Speaker 1 (01:00:08):
Well, and the diet right that we feed folks in
communities like that.
It's because and it is a cost,because that is cheap and easy.
Yeah, unfortunate.

Speaker 3 (01:00:21):
Yeah, I'm just like we brought a lot this is another
podcast.

Speaker 2 (01:00:25):
We did, though you know, it's where it becomes
difficult to see people withouta lot of family visits, because
we did bring food all the time.
I'm lucky, my sisters and I andour husbands and everybody, we
all live local, so we were thereconstantly, which changes also
your level of care,unfortunately.

Speaker 1 (01:00:42):
Definitely, and you know that's part of health, and
longevity too, is thoseconnections right, having people
that you, that you love andcare about.
That's a huge piece of healthand wellness, as we know.

Speaker 3 (01:00:57):
I can't even imagine what 2020 was like in your
industry, with people not beingable to visit their loved ones.

Speaker 2 (01:01:05):
My dad was gone by then and I remember thinking I
don't know how we would havesurvived knowing your loved one,
who's already confused.
You cannot visit them.
I feel like I might have gottensome scrubs and snuck in and
been arrested.
I really do.
I don't know how people managethis, at the stress of it, the
guilt of it.

Speaker 1 (01:01:26):
I don't even know how to put it into words.
I had left the assisted livingfor my new job about six months
before COVID hit.
Then, when COVID hit, theassisted living that I had
previously worked at got hitpretty hard.
I ended up going back there towork in 10 different capacities,

(01:01:48):
really whatever they needed.
Much of what I did was callingfamilies to update them and let
them know how things were going,which meant a lot to them
because they knew me.
Because, as you know, at thebeginning we didn't know how

(01:02:16):
lethal it was or how it wasspread.

Speaker 2 (01:02:20):
I would come home and strip naked in my garage and
then go to the show God blessyou for doing that with a child
at home Seriously, because itwas so important like a lifeline
to those people.
I mean, joyce, imagine you andI couldn't have seen our dads.
There's no way in my dad's caseto explain that.

Speaker 3 (01:02:43):
I know my dad went into the hospital the first time
in July of 2020.
He was at Marymount.
He can only have one visitorthe whole time and that was
obviously my mom.
Then he went back to Marymountat the beginning of August.

(01:03:03):
Just two not great experiences.
The second one was really notgood.
But then, when he needed to goback to the hospital, my
sister-in-law works for UH andshe had convinced my mom to just
take him to UH.
Uh, he could have one visitor aday, but it didn't have to be

(01:03:28):
the same person.
We didn't know he was going tobe there as long as he was.
But it was nice because everyonce in a while I got to go
visit or my brother got to govisit and my mom needed a break.
She probably wouldn't have saidit that way because she
wouldn't ever describe it as aburden to go see my dad.

Speaker 2 (01:03:48):
But she needed a break too.

Speaker 3 (01:03:51):
But it did give us an opportunity to be there, so
that was really nice.
But then he went to a rehab andthat was a bit of well, that
was a huge nightmare.
But when he first got therethey put him on the first floor
so we could see him at thewindow, which was that was
really hard for him because hesaid he felt like a prisoner,

(01:04:12):
like he's visiting his family atthe window and you had to take
his word for the most part onwhat he was eating and how PT
was, because you couldn't bethere for him.

Speaker 2 (01:04:23):
There's another layer of it.

Speaker 3 (01:04:25):
Yeah, yeah, I don't even know what's going on, but
then he had to go to UH.
For what is it?
And when they put the thingdown your throat, like he, yeah.
So when he came back and thatwas only he was gone, for I
don't even know if he was gonefor a whole day, but he had a
quarantine again.
So they at some point decidedto put all the new quarantine

(01:04:47):
people on the third floor and sothen you couldn't, you know, we
couldn't see him at the window,and that made it even worse.
And they had an iPad up thereand apparently told all the
residents, or all the patients,that they could FaceTime or use
iPad as they wish.
My dad didn't give a shit aboutan iPad, you know, and so, like
it was just.
And then he ended up going backto UH and we were back to like,

(01:05:10):
being able to switch up, whowas seeing him, and then his end
of life, when they knew he wasdying.
We were all able to be with him.
So but I think later in October, I don't there was a huge surge
in COVID and I don't think that.
I think maybe it could havejust been my mom, like it.
Had it been two or three weekslater, it would have been a

(01:05:31):
different story and it's just Ican't.
That's just it was so.
That year was so hard.

Speaker 2 (01:05:39):
I can't imagine the people to whom you are so
important because you were thatlast link Like I can't imagine
thinking about it.
You know, if it were me and Iwould want you.
Please can you say this to mydad, and I mean, it had to be a
lot for you to carry On top ofworrying about bringing this

(01:06:00):
virus home to your family.

Speaker 1 (01:06:03):
It definitely was a lot, yeah, how.

Speaker 3 (01:06:10):
Go ahead, amber.
I'm sorry, I didn't mean to.

Speaker 1 (01:06:11):
I was just gonna say it was a very, very scary time
literally for everyone, right,Everyone, everyone around the
world.

Speaker 2 (01:06:20):
Yeah, in different ways too.
Yeah, I mean really thank Godfor people who went in and did
stuff.

Speaker 1 (01:06:30):
Yeah, and, and I will .
It was very meaningful, youknow, for me, having known those
residents, you know, to go backto have them have a familiar
face.
You know, one of the things wedid was, of course, we were all
covered and, head to toe, ppeglasses mask the gown.
So we printed these huge namebadges that had our picture on

(01:06:55):
it.
So we could go into a person'sroom and say, you know, hi, it's
me Amber.

Speaker 2 (01:07:01):
and point to the badge, Because you know, some of
these confused people probablythought they were ending their
life on another planet.

Speaker 1 (01:07:09):
Right, right it was.
Yeah, it was hard.
It was hard times, no doubt,for literally everyone.

Speaker 2 (01:07:17):
I'm just saying thank you on behalf of.
I'm sure you've been thanked agazillion times, but thank you I
appreciate that.

Speaker 3 (01:07:25):
How do you think your career has had an effect on
your daughter?

Speaker 2 (01:07:30):
Oh, that's a great question.
I think that she had to see younaked in the garage.

Speaker 1 (01:07:34):
Yeah, then we sprinting through the house,
which will scar her forever,right, um, actually, I I think
it's very significant.
So when I was running theassisted living and Ingrid was
quite young, I would bring herin.
I like to go in on Thanksgivingmorning and just pour coffee at

(01:07:57):
breakfast and say, you know,happy Thanksgiving to the
residents, because if they werestill in the building, that
meant that they probably weren'tgoing to family.
They were there for the day.
So I would bring Ingrid with meand she would help me pour
coffee, or I love that, oh, theyabsolutely loved it, um, you
know.
Or if we had, of course, afamily event, I would have her

(01:08:18):
there.
And even now she is an officialCyprus hospice volunteer.
She's gone through thevolunteer program and she helps
us to stack shelves with medical, with medical equipment, um,
but I mean, it's pretty in myopinion, pretty huge that she
has been exposed to older adults.

(01:08:39):
She doesn't feel uncomfortablearound the elderly.
I think she's pretty confident,you know, from doing things
like even just stocking shelves,right, um, and being exposed to
health care and the elderly.
I recently did a craft at anassisted living and I made

(01:09:01):
Ingrid come with me and help,and, of course the residents
love that right.
They're thrilled to see a youngperson.

Speaker 2 (01:09:07):
Oh gosh, it probably makes their day.
They're tired of the same oldday in, day out, spaghetti and
the same age that they see inthe same schedule.
And to expose her not only toall that you just said, and just
speaking with old people, whichis hard for kids.
But the responsibility ofservice to others is not passed

(01:09:30):
on to every child in America.
Let's just say yeah.
Yeah, so I do think, I thinkit's, it's huge and it gives her
it's going to give her life andcareer more meaning than a
person who's groomed to get acareer and not have that Angle
of service to others as part oftheir vernacular.

Speaker 1 (01:09:54):
Yes, I hope so.

Speaker 3 (01:09:56):
Does Ingrid have all of her grandparents?

Speaker 1 (01:09:59):
Um, no, Her two.
Uh, grant, she has two grandmasand a one grandpa, Um, but she
did lose like a step grandfatherand then my dad actually died
before she was born.
But she does have excellentrelationships with her grandmas.
You know she, she texts them,they FaceTime.

(01:10:20):
Yeah, she does have really goodrelationships with them.

Speaker 2 (01:10:24):
Or you know, Joyce and I find ourselves a little
bit young-ish to be grandmas, Iguess.
I mean not really, but um, youknow, it's nice to hear that
because right now we're, we'rethe fun grandmas, we're young, I
mean, they're going to get alife, Joyce, away from us, and
we're going to have to hope thatwe have those good

(01:10:44):
relationships too.
We have to, we have to keep upon.
Technology is the ticket.

Speaker 1 (01:10:49):
Yes, I think you're right.

Speaker 2 (01:10:51):
Yeah, we're going to be, I won't say texting and
FaceTime, because God knows whatit's going to be 20 years from
now.

Speaker 3 (01:10:57):
So Mary Beth will be those grandmas that are like
just use FaceTime, what's what'sthe?
What's the face?
Face, Um, I, you know, my, myyou.
I may or may not have listenedto the podcast when my dad had
five brothers and my, my uncle,John, died a couple months ago,

(01:11:20):
and four out of the six brothersdied at 76 within like days of
each other, including my dad.
So it hit me, when I wastalking to somebody about my
uncle's passing, that I'm 50 and76 is.
You know, as we get older, timejust seems to fly even faster.

Speaker 1 (01:11:43):
Oh it really, does it really does yeah, 26 years.

Speaker 2 (01:11:46):
I think those two decades flying past like nothing
.

Speaker 3 (01:11:49):
Yeah, like I mean you know 25, 26, 24, whatever
didn't doesn't feel that faraway.
I remember every, maybe notevery bit of it, but like, and
so my granddaughter is about tobe three and in you know, 26
years, she'll just be 29.

(01:12:09):
And I'll be 76.

Speaker 2 (01:12:14):
29,.
You know, will she be marriedor you know?

Speaker 3 (01:12:18):
will she live in the same area, Like there's just?

Speaker 2 (01:12:23):
you know, ashley, james and Joyce's daughter,
ashley, just had a birthday andI saw James on Ashley's birthday
between classes and I said, youknow, it just seems like
yesterday she was in high schooland here working on a desk she
babysat my granddaughter for afamily wedding or two that we
had.
So it was like how how isAshley this old and with a child

(01:12:44):
this old?
Yeah, it is crazy.

Speaker 3 (01:12:48):
Yeah, and things change.
But like that, it's just as yousaid this before, amber like
there's, we don't have much timehere at all.

Speaker 1 (01:12:57):
We really don't.

Speaker 2 (01:13:01):
And yeah, sometimes Y'all are bringing on my
depression.
Sorry, mary, I drove to classesyesterday.
You know I'm lucky that I canenjoy more summer than, say, the
back to school game, but Ithink I saw a red leaf yesterday
.

Speaker 3 (01:13:19):
I was like no, it is, the evenings are starting to
cool down, kind of like fall.

Speaker 2 (01:13:23):
But I think that's a bit temporary, maybe next week's
going to be hot again, said youknow who.

Speaker 3 (01:13:31):
Oh.

Speaker 1 (01:13:31):
I tell you, one of the one of the talks that I do
is on the science of happiness,and so you know my research, or
you know my education, wasfocused on mental health, and
when you talk about mentalhealth, you talk about
abnormality, right, so that wasmy training, like what's what
goes wrong?
But there is a new science onwellness.

(01:13:55):
You know what does it mean tobe mentally well, what does it
mean to be happy?
What I want to say is thatresearch tells us that 40% of
your overall happiness, wellness, is within your control, that
you know there's a chunk that isenvironment and there's a piece

(01:14:16):
that's genetics, but 40% isreally your attitude and your
perspective.
And I want to say that becauseI feel like that's.

Speaker 2 (01:14:27):
That's significant right.

Speaker 1 (01:14:27):
There's choices to be made.
Yes, and if we know we're herefor a short time, why would we
make any other choice but to behappy?

Speaker 2 (01:14:36):
And the older, we get it is a choice, like there's
self talk involved, like I wakeup feeling a certain way and
maybe I have to talk myself intoturning that around a bit.
Do you have have you writtenlike an article or something
about the science of happinessthat you can share?

Speaker 1 (01:14:53):
So what I do is for continuing education.
You have to attend, like ourlong presentation, so I have
presentations on the science ofhappiness, resilience,
neuroplasticity, stress, thingslike that.

Speaker 2 (01:15:07):
My, my dad's.
For any who haven't heard thisad nauseum already, my dad's
given name was Gerald, but hewent through life as half
because he was happy.
So hopefully I'm geneticallypredisposed to happiness and
then I can help out with theother 40%.

Speaker 3 (01:15:27):
Do you get a lot with your patients where, because I
feel like that's a generationalthing too.
Like his, his name was Gerald,but they call him half my uncle
Jerry.
It was actually named Richard.

Speaker 2 (01:15:40):
Oh funny, there's just little nicknames, huh.

Speaker 1 (01:15:42):
Yeah, and it's funny that they stick right even
beyond school, or yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:15:49):
My grandmother named my dad Gerald Harold.
Which kind of rhymes which isinsane.
She he was actually supposed tobe named Calvin after his
father, but she too was veryCatholic and Calvin was a no
bueno name.
So she named him after her twobrothers, jerry and Tony.
Gerald Anthony, but quickly hebecame half, like the number of

(01:16:13):
people who called him Jerry orGerald.
In fact, when he was in nursingcare I would always make a big
sign saying call me half,because people see his chart and
they're like hi, gerald, andI'm like he about to kick you.
He's got the dementia, but heknows his name and it ain't
Gerald.

Speaker 1 (01:16:32):
So let me ask you did his happy personality stick
with him through end of life?

Speaker 2 (01:16:39):
No, he had Lewy body dementia, which, as you might
know, involves a lot ofdelusions and hallucinations,
and unfortunately he was prettyyoung.
He was in his early 70s, veryphysically healthy and strong,
and his delusions would includethings like someone Rapping our

(01:16:59):
mother, oh no.
Or trying to kill one of uskids, and so he was just always,
oh my gosh, orchard, and on themove.
He got you.
We were in five differentnursing homes because he was
hard to control.
He was young and muscular andathletic and strong and he was
gone.
He was like oh, get out of myoffice, you're stealing my files

(01:17:22):
.
And we get the call.
Meet us at the Jerry psych wardat X hospital, whatever,
whoever had a bed that night.
Yeah, that process, just todivert the conversation a little
, that process kind of sucks too, because when your loved one
with dementia has an episode andthat can be brought on even

(01:17:42):
just by, like a urinary tractinfection or something, because
they can't say how they feel andit just affects how they act
they get ambulance to theemergency room like everybody
else, like the kid that fell outof a tree and broke his arm.
So there you have a person withdementia like I remember one
night my sister Colleen, in theER with my dad who was wearing a

(01:18:05):
bright blue cardigan that hehad lifted off of a person's
station and like a gown becausehe I don't even know what went
on.
But they have to sit throughthis normal ER triage, blood
tests etc.
Before.
I wish there was a fast trackfrom nursing homes into
geriatrics, even a geriatric ER.

(01:18:25):
I know it's impossible to stufflike that but yeah, our medical
system is not great.

Speaker 1 (01:18:35):
That's a different podcast, but right right right.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:18:39):
Well and I we were touching on mental health a lot
in this, but mental health isn'tpart of physical health
treatment and I I believe thatit should be.
I mean, when James hurt hisshoulder and he was in the
hospital for a couple of days,like I asked for if mental

(01:19:01):
health treatment was available,it was a very high stress time
and they're like well, we cangive you a referral, for you
know, like her and I can Googlethat, yeah, but later is, either
it's either going to be worseor like it's not going to be top
of mind, you know, but yeah,more holistic, I think, is what

(01:19:22):
you're saying, like we need aholistic approach.

Speaker 1 (01:19:25):
Yes, yes, our medical system is definitely in silos,
right, you get treated for onething by one person and then you
got to go somewhere else forsomething else.
We don't, we rarely look at thewhole, the whole picture.

Speaker 2 (01:19:37):
I always think of that with people who have had a
heart attack.
You have to have less stress,you have to relax.
Well, that's going to givesomebody a heart attack If
they're used to, not if they'reused to doing and now you say
you cannot get out of this bedand you cannot look at your
phone.
They're going to.

Speaker 3 (01:19:59):
Yeah Well not too much, but there's just too much
medication.
There's something to a pill tofix everything.
I know a lot of my dad's issueswere well, you know, he go to
the doctor, end up in theemergency room and it was just
an adjustment in the medicationbecause they put him on
something new for his kidneysand that messed with his heart
medication and just he needed alittle, a little tune up.

Speaker 2 (01:20:23):
And the and the idea of is there anybody driving the
bus?
Because your arthritis doctorgave you something that your
heart doctor would say no bueno.
And you know we used to havebetter sort of personal
relationships, even withpharmacists that would help with
that.
And, yes, the computers help,like this drug interacts with
this one, but still a lot slipsthrough.

Speaker 3 (01:20:44):
Definitely, Do you see that a lot Amber.

Speaker 1 (01:20:49):
Absolutely.
Now we have hospitalists.
When you go to the hospital,you have a doctor there, but
it's not your primary caredoctor and it's not your
rheumatologist.
It's very complicated.
In fact, one of the firstthings that hospice services
does is a medicationreconciliation, where you go
through the three-page med listand probably discontinue half of

(01:21:13):
it To say, okay, what are wereally doing here?

Speaker 3 (01:21:18):
I wouldn't be surprised if you see a big
improvement.

Speaker 1 (01:21:22):
Yeah, we often do, especially that's.
The other piece of it is thatthere are not enough geriatric
specialists, and so doctors aretreating the elderly like they
would treat you and me, andtheir metabolisms are different,
their bodies are different,they can't handle the same
medications, but they end up onthem and that's yeah.

(01:21:44):
That's again a whole other.

Speaker 3 (01:21:47):
Yeah, I'm sure you have.
On the lighter side, I'm sureyou have some funny story like
you see some funny things andyou have to just laugh at some
point.

Speaker 1 (01:21:57):
Oh, yes, yes, In fact , I'll tell you one of the when
I started my career in mentalhealth, for extra money, I would
escort non-voluntary patientsto court.
Wow so if you have a mentalhealth crisis and you end up in
an emergency room, you can sayyes, I want treatment and sign

(01:22:21):
yourself in, or a doctor and asocial worker can involuntarily
petition you and say you can'tgo home, you're going to the
hospital.
And then you can choose toeither stay and sign a paperwork
or you can say no, I'd like togo in front of a judge.
So, again, for extra money, Iwould escort these patients to
the court, which you'd think wewould have transportation, but

(01:22:46):
instead I would get in a taxiwith people and hope for the
best.

Speaker 3 (01:22:52):
Oh my, God Holy moly.

Speaker 1 (01:22:53):
Yeah, it was so, so fascinating.
So they would go in front ofthe judge and probably nine
times out of 10, a judge wouldagree with the social worker and
the doctor and the person wouldcome back with me and they'd
have to undergo treatment.
But once in a while someonewould convince the judge, like
one time I had a woman whoconvinced the judge that she

(01:23:14):
just had really bad PMS andthat's why she was acting crazy.

Speaker 2 (01:23:19):
So I'll be fine until next month, your Honor.

Speaker 1 (01:23:21):
Right and the judge said, okay, fair enough, and so
she got into a different taxiand went home from the court.
So yes, I have all kinds ofstories.

Speaker 2 (01:23:32):
What, without going too far down a rabbit hole?
So you're a young person.
What takes you into this path?

Speaker 1 (01:23:41):
Oh, you know.
So when I was in undergrad, Iwell, I went to a college
because I thought I was gonna bea teacher.
And then at some point I wassitting in a poetry class and I
had just turned in my classesfor the next semester and I
thought, oh my God, I don'twanna be alone in a room with a
bunch of kids for the rest of mylife, like what am.

Speaker 2 (01:24:02):
I doing.

Speaker 1 (01:24:04):
And so I left that poetry class and I ran to the
registrar's office and I beggedthem to give me my form back,
which they were not supposed todo, but I think I started to cry
and so she gave it to me.

Speaker 2 (01:24:15):
Whatever works.

Speaker 1 (01:24:17):
And I just started taking sociology and psychology
classes and I ended up with adouble major in those two topics
because to me that wasfascinating.
I love thinking about how thebrain works and how people
interact with one another and Imean that's just inspiring to me
.
So then, as I finished withthat degree, I realized that I

(01:24:41):
had no idea what I was gonna do.

Speaker 2 (01:24:43):
With it, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:24:44):
I could do it with my life.
So anyway, now so I'm justgonna go around learning and
talking, right, that would begreat, but anyway.
So that's what led me to socialwork.
So I am a licensed counselor.
I don't work in that capacity,but that's sort of my retirement
.
My early retirement plan wouldbe to eventually go back into

(01:25:06):
outpatient practice, one-on-one.

Speaker 2 (01:25:09):
Wow excellent.

Speaker 3 (01:25:11):
I have to ask you you must not be afraid of aging and
death.

Speaker 1 (01:25:19):
Well, I am afraid of aging because I wanna age well.

Speaker 3 (01:25:26):
Okay, yeah, afraid maybe isn't the right word.

Speaker 1 (01:25:28):
Yes, I'm afraid of having chronic disease.
I'm afraid of spending the last10 years of my life in a
nursing home.
That scares me.
So, yes, I really do focus alot on health and wellness
because I wanna live asenergetically as I can and then

(01:25:49):
drop dead.
I mean right, right, isn't that?

Speaker 2 (01:25:54):
everybody Only we could all like just go to sleep
one night and wake up the nextat a ripe old age.

Speaker 1 (01:26:01):
Yes, Right yeah, so I think I'm probably more
cognizant of death than mostpeople, I would say so yeah,
yeah so, but no, I'm not afraidof what's next.
What about you, ladies?

Speaker 3 (01:26:20):
I I don't.
I wanna say that I'm not afraid, but I also.
So I had this conversation,kind of wasn't a deep one, but
it was with my mom.
We were driving through herapartment complex, which is 55

(01:26:44):
plus and I would guess most ofthem are more like 70 plus Very
beautiful apartment complex it'straditions on the corner of
York and 82 and they have a pool, and I think it was Memorial
Day weekend and James and I tookher, we went out to eat and so
she was in my car and we werepassing the pool and I'm like

(01:27:05):
mom, you should really use thepool more often because it's why
not?
Right?
And she goes, those people areso old and I just don't feel
like I belong with.
Like those aren't my she wasn'tsaying it this way, but those
aren't her peers kind of thing.
Like I don't feel that old.
And she's like do I look thatold?

(01:27:25):
And I just like it.
I had like a moment, a personalmoment that I'll get to in a
second, but I was like mom, soyou're 76.

Speaker 2 (01:27:37):
Like, regardless of If you're not a student, Judy,
you don't look.
76.

Speaker 3 (01:27:41):
No, she doesn't look 76, but like it doesn't change
the fact that you're 76.
And I have that, like I don't,I get this all the time, I don't
look 50.
And I can't believe you're agrandma, that kind of thing, and
I feel great.
I guess I'm aging well, but I'm50.

(01:28:03):
You're aware of yeah and so likeI said a moment ago, like 26
years, isn't that far away?
And so I don't know that I'mafraid of death, but I don't
think I'm ready to processsomething that's much closer
than I Far, far away, because Ifeel so good Do you know what I

(01:28:27):
mean?
Like I feel like I have so muchmore left to do or accomplish
or share on this planet that 26years not that I'm that I have
you know that's gonna happen in26 years but who knows right,
like who knows?
So I guess, yeah, that's whatI'm struggling with.
If it's a struggle, it's not astruggle because I haven't been

(01:28:47):
thinking about it, but like itactually is a struggle for me.
Is it?
Yeah, like you guys both.
I don't know how old you are,amber, but like the three of us
are very and, of course, as youget older, like 60 doesn't seem
old to us.
Right, that's really young,right?
Like when you were 20, thinkingabout your 50 year old self.

(01:29:10):
Is this what you imagined?
Oh, my gosh, Now I thought thatI was gonna be a lot older when
I was.

Speaker 2 (01:29:15):
Like getting your hair done once a week or
whatever.
Yeah, I am not afraid of deathand what's after it.
I am afraid of suffering.
Yes, I've had a very happy,very easy, very blessed life.
I haven't been sick orabandoned or abused.
I have it easy, I love it, andso I don't wanna leave it, even

(01:29:40):
if I believe what's after it isbetter.
It's just human to not want tolet go of this, and so and I've
always been introspective thatway where I do worry about
things that haven't happened yetI mean, I was the kid I would
check my parents to see if theywere breathing as a kid.
So I've, for whatever reason,always been a little too

(01:30:01):
obsessed with losing thiswonderful life, and so, yeah,
pretty much every day I have tothink about this.
Perhaps I should have consultedsomebody about this long ago.

Speaker 1 (01:30:14):
But the beauty of that, then, is that there's a
Buddhist saying about live life.
As if death is whispering inyour ear right, and you're
functionally doing that, thatyou realize it could end and so,
hopefully, that means you liveeach day to the fullest and you
are grateful, right Grateful, tobe alive.

Speaker 2 (01:30:34):
Yes, that I am.

Speaker 3 (01:30:36):
But what that prevents I think maybe not in
the Buddhist saying is like usgetting our shit together
because we're gonna die rightLike getting all the stuff in
order.

Speaker 2 (01:30:48):
You think, with this voice in my ear all these years,
I might have my shit together.
But no, not a bit.

Speaker 3 (01:30:54):
Yes, you notice she's changed hairstyles about five
times during our conversation.
Hot and cold, hot and cold theyall look good.

Speaker 2 (01:31:01):
Yeah, they do all look good, thank you.
Thank you.
My brother-in-law, brian, sawmy car the other day just
another diversion here and hesaid he called me a couple of
days later and he said can Ihave your car on Sunday?
And I said what do you need mycar for, cause I have an old car
.
He goes, I'm gonna detail it.
He goes I'm good at that and itsounds like you need it.

(01:31:26):
So I'm like, well, I'm gonnahave to get it ready to be
detailed, cause I got a lot toget out.

Speaker 3 (01:31:31):
So you're gonna organize all your stuff.

Speaker 2 (01:31:33):
Is that what he said?
Well, no, I'm gonna have totake my stuff out, but he will
clean it, because I also am theperson that has my sunroof and
windows open all summer, so it'sfricking gross in there.
There's dust all overeverything and there's a lot of
eating and changing clothes andstuff that goes on in there.

Speaker 3 (01:31:50):
This is she's bringing a lot of baggage.
This is an analogy to her endof life.

Speaker 2 (01:31:55):
She's just she's thank you.
Thank you for making theconnection, Cause that's what it
is.
It's like.
If something does happen, oh mygosh, she's gonna take care of
all this stuff that I've nottaken care of.
It's just stuff, though.

Speaker 1 (01:32:06):
Just stuff exactly.

Speaker 2 (01:32:08):
Yeah, If somebody could drop a grenade in it and
let it go.
I just don't want it to be aproblem for someone to deal with
.

Speaker 3 (01:32:14):
Well, amber.
Thank you so much for for one.
This has been so interesting.
Yeah, it's been veryinteresting For one asking to be
on the podcast and two beingpatient with us getting you
scheduled.
I know we had a couple ofhiccups along the way and we
would love to have you back,cause that's going to be Mary

(01:32:36):
Beth's project in a while.

Speaker 2 (01:32:39):
We're gonna have a season of all second visits,
because we always have to cut itshorter than we want and we
always want to check back in andnow we have a long list of
people to say that about.

Speaker 3 (01:32:50):
So I'll get on that and once we're done like really
process all of this.
We're going to have morequestions, but I really
appreciate it.
Thank you for your time.
Thanks for being such a greatyoga practitioner and customer
and supporting us.
I really, really appreciatethat.
It's been nice to get to knowyou over the years and I really

(01:33:10):
appreciate your help and advicewhen my dad was going through
what he was going through, andI'm sure you have been such an
integral part to this stressfuland beautiful time in a lot of
people's lives and I hope youget thanked enough.

Speaker 1 (01:33:32):
Well, thank you, I really I enjoyed it.
It was nice to get to know bothof you and thank you so much
for having me Really appreciateit.

Speaker 2 (01:33:39):
Thank you, yeah, we appreciate you.
And just one more yoga nodconnection there is.
The modern yoga community thatinvolves all these kinds of
conversations is so helpful.
You've already talked, joyce,about how you connected with
Amber when it was your dad'sturn, and we've done that with
everything from your professionto physical therapists, to dog

(01:34:03):
watching, dog sitting.
So thank you too, joyce, forcreating a community where we
can all share, like what Amberwas talking about, the
connection and how relationshipsand people's minds work.
Does anybody need to thank mefor anything?

Speaker 3 (01:34:20):
Thank you for your hair oh welcome.

Speaker 1 (01:34:24):
All right, we're done , joyce.
Thank you so much.
Ladies, I'm going to blast.

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