Exploring the Healing Power of Yoga and Mindfulness with Josh Stacher

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Two microphones and make a full cast.
Two microphones and you make afull cast.

Speaker 2 (00:28):
Hi, this is Joyce and this is Marybeth.
Welcome to the Modern Yogapodcast.
Today's guest is Josh Stasher.
Am I saying that right, Josh?

Speaker 1 (00:38):
Stacker.
Today's special guest is Josh.

Speaker 2 (00:44):
Stacker, is that how you are Now?
I have to look you up.

Speaker 3 (00:47):
I thought you were calling him Stasher, because
he's a guy with a mustache.
Not really a mustache, just alittle facial hair.

Speaker 1 (00:53):
So it is S-T-A-C-H-E-R.
That's how it's spelled, butit's pronounced Stacker.

Speaker 2 (00:59):
Got it.

Speaker 1 (01:00):
Like that, it's Engelfad German.

Speaker 2 (01:03):
Got it Well.
Welcome to the podcast.

Speaker 1 (01:07):
Thank you.
Thank you so much for having me.

Speaker 2 (01:10):
We are interested in hearing your story because Josh
is in teacher training.
You started teacher traininglate April.
Okay, and you're a good waythrough it.
I'm guessing that you are mostlikely going to be the next one
to graduate.

Speaker 3 (01:30):
The next one to take that jump in your picture.

Speaker 2 (01:34):
Yes, have you practiced your jump?

Speaker 1 (01:37):
I have not Did you see, joe's jump.
Yeah, and I'm not 23.

Speaker 3 (01:42):
So that's right, that jump is going to be a little
difficult to compete with.

Speaker 1 (01:47):
I was thinking like a really solid warrior too.

Speaker 2 (01:52):
You do you, you do you boo, you can make that
warrior to float.
So we've gotten to know you alittle bit better during teacher
training and Getting to knowyou.

Speaker 3 (02:06):
Sorry, I was just providing like the soundtrack of
the back Getting to know allabout you.

Speaker 2 (02:13):
Josh is very interesting.
He has been practicing yoga fora while.
How long has it been?

Speaker 1 (02:20):
I started practicing, so I was playing around with
yoga in the fall of 2019 at theBrexville Community Center, rec,
but I was not really consistentand like I knew there was
something there, but I didn'tquite know what.
And then it just kind of endedand the pandemic started and I

(02:40):
started like a home practice inMay of 2020.
And then I think I startedgoing to a studio in May of 2021
.
And then I started coming tomodern yoga in January of 2023.
So it's been about three and ahalf years.

Speaker 3 (03:03):
Wow, it's significant that you did a home practice at
all.
I mean that takes people a lotof time, like you really have to
kind of have the yoga bug alittle bit to do a home practice
.

Speaker 1 (03:15):
I mean, my origin story is that one of my best
friends he teaches Arabicliterature at Georgetown.
He called me I don't even knowwhat day it was Like random
Tuesday in the middle of thelockdown pandemic and I thought
I was just being normal and hewas like are you okay?

(03:36):
Do you seem a little edgy?
And I'm fine.
He was like, would you want tomeditate with me?
I was like I don't know whatyou're saying to me.
What do you mean?
So he explained it to me and hesaid look, I'll call you in
like three hours.
Be ready to sit for 10 minutes,wow.
So we did that and it waspretty excruciating and I didn't

(04:01):
like it, that's the word forthe first meditation.

Speaker 3 (04:03):
Thank you.

Speaker 1 (04:04):
But like I was sort of I knew there was something, a
thread there that I had to pulla little bit and eventually I
can get kind of addicted tothings, and so I like discipline
, I like things being dailypractices.
So I was starting to meditate agood bit and I couldn't sit for

(04:27):
very long because my body wouldcramp or be sore or this and
that.
So then I googled like well,how do people sit in meditation
longer?
And I found out like well,there's a bunch of yoga, and it
was about this time there was aNew York Times article on
Adrienne Michelin and yoga withAdrienne, and so I turned that

(04:50):
on and I mean she was just likea gateway drug Because I mean,
like how she teaches, there'snever any music.
So you have to focus on yourexperience.
And I always would tell, likemy wife and like family members,
like I feel like I'm in a lovecave, just me and her like, and

(05:12):
she's just guiding thatexperience.
And so you know, and along theway I was reading and I was
watching documentaries and I was, you know, very sort of
interested in like yoga.
And so when it came time in2021, I chose a studio and I

(05:36):
went and I was there for 18months and it was amazing.

Speaker 3 (05:41):
And how did you find the studio experience after what
you had been doing?
So was it like where's my?
With Adrienne?

Speaker 1 (05:55):
So I was like online looking and I found this yoga
studio called Daybreak Yoga.
It was in Bedford, ohio, andyou know they all have books,
books that are important to thisstudio or whatever, and the
book All About Love by BellHooks was on there and like that

(06:15):
was my book.
Like that was the book thatlike was the turnaround in my
life and so, like I knew therewas a good ethos there, so I
went there and at the time itwas the only solo black woman
owned yoga studio in Ohio andthe clientele was mainly African

(06:39):
American women in their 50s and60s, and then a bunch of
African American women in their20s who were basically like
nurses and first responders andthese sorts of things.
And like, what I saw was likethese people had just been
chewed up by like a machine,right, like they were spent.
And then so I was the onlywhite guy that practiced at

(07:02):
Daybreak Yoga.
There was only one othergentleman.
His name was Brother Gary.
He's like in his 60s.
He would only come to therestorative class and so for.
And I practiced five days aweek.
I mean, my schedule is alwaysthe same, it's 9 30, monday
through Friday, and then I'mwith my family doing wherever

(07:23):
they're taking me.
And so Daybreak was greatbecause it was about the yoga,
but it was also about the verysort of particular ways that
collections of black women healin this country because of all
the barriers that they come upagainst, right, and at that time

(07:46):
I needed healing and so once Igot comfortable, and everybody
got comfortable, like they justincluded me in like the healing
sort of vibe of the whole place.
So I mean, it was a prettyamazing experience.
And you know, I never had ateacher that was white.

(08:12):
All the teachers were people ofcolor, all of them were women,
and so it was just a differentworld in a lot of ways.
And I had never done power yoga,I had never done hot yoga, I
wasn't even quite sure I likedit.
But when Daybreak was shuttingdown, I was looking online and

(08:36):
the first thing I noticed wasthat like oh, modern yoga is 1.1
miles from my house and so thatwas attractive.
And so I initially got like astudent special and I went to a
slow flow class first because Iwas like you know, I'm not sure
I'm down with all this hot powerstuff.
It's a bit much right.

Speaker 3 (08:59):
Was it not heated at Daybreak?

Speaker 1 (09:02):
No, no, no, not heated.
And so you know, I was in theslow flow class and there was a
hot class running concurrentlyand like I was like looking at
the people coming out of thatclass Okay, well, you know, I've
done enough yoga that I canprobably survive a hot power
class Like, well, let me givethis a shot.

(09:23):
And then I think I've been tomaybe three other slow flow
classes since January and one ofthem was like YTT related.
So you know, yeah, I did getthe bug.

Speaker 3 (09:39):
And what an interesting experience as a
white male to be a minority likethat.
How cool because you know, wethink we know what that feels
like, because we might walk intoa I don't know the subway or
something once and feel likewe're out of place.
But that's what my parties feellike all the time.

Speaker 1 (10:03):
And, like you know, even to have this kind of like
relationship or interaction,like required work, right, Like
I couldn't roll out of bed andlike zoom down to, like you know
, like a really well resourcedyoga, you know studio, right, it
was like you had to drive there.
There was no really highwayaccess.

(10:24):
There was like a drink shop,like a bottle shop that was
operating like the next doorover, so like there'd be people
like completely like zooming outon yoga and like across the
plane, across the pane of glass,there were people completely
zoning out on alcohol.
You know, and you know, it wasjust, it was a lot more.

(10:48):
And then, as just a regularcustomer of the business, right,
Like things happen, man, thingshappen a lot, a lot over there.
And like resolving the problemsjust aren't something that are
part of my experience.
Usually I call it might take alittle while, I might have to

(11:11):
beg and plead, but like thingsget done, Whereas there, like
you know, I mean a lot of itjust seemed cruel, Like I think
it was Spotify, I can't remember, but they started coming after
her because she was recordingthe yoga and like what about the
rights to the songs?
And like I mean, and it justwas like so aggressive.

Speaker 2 (11:32):
Like one thing after the other, after the other.

Speaker 1 (11:35):
Exactly, you know, and so you know.
But it was, it was an amazingexperience and I got to be part
of the community and and.
But you know, look for what Ido for a living.
I'm a college professor and Iteach international studies, and
so I actually lived in Cairo,egypt, for nine years between

(11:58):
1998 and 2007.
So I got very used to beinglike the only white guy in the
room and it taught me, like, howto listen a little better.
It taught me how to like valueand believe others experiences
from like the jump, like theydon't have to prove it to me
right.

Speaker 3 (12:18):
Right.

Speaker 1 (12:19):
Right.
And then you know, I've been atKent State University for 16
years, going on year 16.
I am as promoted as you can geton a university campus and so I
have a lot of freedom to teachhow I like to teach, how I want

(12:40):
to teach.
And so one of the things thatwe do is I just use the
classroom as like a way thatthey can experience the world
with their bodies and minds andalso sort of like what are the
best ideas out there?
Like if you want to have like aviolent political revolution,

(13:00):
like who's written the bestthing on that?
And like what, what are theysaying?
And like what do we think aboutthat?
Or you know, maybe we readsomething by Martin Luther King
like pilgrimage to non violence,and we say like are you a
violent person?
Right, and you make people kindof confronted at that level.

(13:22):
And then you know some of theother classes I teach at Kent
State, or Palestine and Israel,which causes just enormous
headaches For a lot of peoplearound me.
It doesn't really cause me theheadache Because my students

(13:44):
know exactly like who I am andwhat we're doing and why we're
doing it, and then because I'malways sort of taking a mirror
and reflecting it off them, like, okay, is it moral to support a
two tiered legal system in theWest Bank and East Jerusalem?
I mean, like you know, it'salmost ridiculous.

Speaker 3 (14:04):
You have to ask the question, it's so important
though, and very cool, because Iwent to college not until I was
in my 40s and you know, justsailing through life doing my
thing and to be sitting in themiddle of other people's
problems that never affected me,I never had to pay attention to

(14:24):
, and then to have really goodprofessors make us talk about it
was just.
I'm so changed.
It's ridiculous.
I'm not saying I'm even betteror worse, but wow, Isn't it?

Speaker 2 (14:40):
unfortunate Maybe this is the new modern yoga club
that we don't continue to havethose conversations in safe
spaces.
We're the same spaces.

Speaker 1 (14:53):
Right, we can create them.
We can create them.

Speaker 2 (14:56):
We can create them, and I have space, and so then it
becomes this this is somethingthat comes up in my life a lot.
Why not Right, like, if I canhelp, why wouldn't I?
And so maybe this podcast willlead us into international

(15:17):
discussions with Josh Stacker.
Go ahead.

Speaker 1 (15:20):
The other thing is like this is yoga, like there's
no difference between what'shappening on our mat, in our
individual experience, to onethe collective of people
breathing together and healingtogether in a room.
And then like, how do we takethat into our streets?
And so you know, I happen tohave access also to space.
Like classrooms, like and look,the state of Ohio may one day

(15:46):
completely gut our universitiesand they look like they want to
flirt in this direction a goodbit, but for the time being I am
the king of the castle of myclassroom.
I control everything that goeson in it, I control the learning
experience, I control the levelof equality, equity and sort of

(16:08):
diversity of my syllabi.
And this is tremendous powerand what my students have
learned since we've gotten offof line and back into sort of a
classroom setting is that thevalue of like a regular,
regularly scheduled sort ofconversation with like a
temporary community that sort offorms holds together for three

(16:31):
months and then exhales out ofexistence Right, so that's
because it takes some pressureoff, to know this is a temporary
thing, and I liked what yousaid about it being a scheduled.

Speaker 3 (16:45):
You know it's not just this vaporist, let's talk,
let's get together in a safespace and talk and learn.
This is like.
Here's the plan.
You could see the end of thetunnel if you don't like it, and
if you do like it, a lot couldchange.
I was about to ask you, givenwhere you've lived and what
you've done, and so theauthenticity you've experienced

(17:08):
of other cultures, how do youfeel with this modern, pun
intended and unintended yoga,this Western yoga and the idea
of it, you know, being culturalappropriation?

Speaker 1 (17:24):
So you know, I understand sort of the yoga that
we're practicing as a sort ofexpression of our contemporary
present.
I don't think that we can goback and practice the yoga of a
thousand years ago or 1500 yearsago, although those histories

(17:51):
and legacies endure.
And so there are theseconnections and I believe
everything on the planet ismutually interconnected.
So I think that it's completelyfine to kind of practice yoga
in the way that we do and that'sessentially incredibly

(18:12):
democratic and sort of equalitybound, right.
So like if you want to use yogaas a workout and not connect
your breath and your rhythm,like that is your business, like
have fun with that, enjoy.
If you want to come in and justbreathe and like move a little
bit, like that's cool.
And if this is something thatis taking you to some sort of

(18:34):
supreme, ultimate reality andyou're accessing that through
your breath and movement, likealso amazing, right.
I mean I think yoga communitieshave everybody in them and you
know, I mean part of being ayogi is being honest and
truthful about what we seearound us.

(18:55):
But in terms of like a culturalappropriation, I mean I brought
this up a little bit in one ofthe YTT's.
I'm sort of uncomfortablesaying almost a at the end.
And the reason that I'muncomfortable at this stage is
because there are a lot ofpeople from South Asian descent

(19:15):
that are basically pointing tothe issue and I don't have like
immediate recognition orunderstanding of it, and so I'm
waiting to hear the argumentsget articulated a little bit
more Before I kind of make a bigdecision.
But generally speaking, likethe stuff that South Asians
point to, like Namaste, issomething really formal.

(19:37):
You would say that thebeginning, you would never say
it at the end.
I mean that needs to be clearedup for me, for me to feel
comfortable with it.
And that's not to say I won'tuse some Sanskrit words as poses
and all the rest of that stuff.
But I think that part when itgets used in a program, when it

(20:00):
gets used out of context.

Speaker 3 (20:02):
Yeah, right?

Speaker 1 (20:03):
Well, that's.
I mean.
There's some things we say.
There's some things that we say, you know, like that wouldn't
make any sense if we said themin English.

Speaker 2 (20:13):
Like we finish a yoga class and like everybody looks
at each other and I'm like I cantell you, when I was in Nepal,
namaste was very informal, likehello, goodbye, you heard, you
heard it all the time, likeNamaste, namaste, coming in,
going out, and I always look atit like what the translation is?

(20:39):
The light is, the translationis actually the divine light in
me.
Season honors the divine lightin you.
We, we, james and I, at leastpurposely leave out the word
divine, because we feel likethat may just press some buttons
and some for some people.
And is it 100% necessary there?

(20:59):
Probably not, but there I ammaking my own decisions on a
word from another language,right, and so just the, just the
, the, the expression, the lightin me.
Season honors that same light.
And you, I mean I don't, that'sso beautiful and that's what
I'm meaning, but I'm notdisagreeing with you either.

(21:20):
Like 100%.

Speaker 1 (21:22):
I think it's.
I think it's incrediblybeautiful.
Beautiful the sentiment and thesort of literal meaning.
But like people don't use wordsin their little or meeting, I
mean it used to drive me crazyin Egypt whenever I'd say like
I'm just going to run down tothe grocery store and somebody
would say Inshallah, god willing, like like no dude, I'm just
going to the grocery store.
Not to do with it, but likeit's not it's.

Speaker 3 (21:45):
It doesn't mean God willing, it means it's a context
thing and if you think aboutour own language, yeah, the
things that we say I often willhear something that we say every
day and I'm like if I was justlearning this language, I'd be
like what?
So I see what you're saying.
I used to have a wonderfulteacher who ended class by
saying jai beguan.

(22:05):
That I think was victory to thelight or something like that.
Again, I don't really, I don'treally know the context, but
it's also kind of odd that weoften burst into applause at the
end of a power yoga class.

Speaker 2 (22:21):
Well, or the end of any class.

Speaker 1 (22:23):
So I mean back to like the beautiful words, like
we have power to make beautifulwords right.
I mean I like to finish.
I think I think how I want tofinish my yoga classes is
something along the lines likemay you be happy, may you be
whole, may you be free.

Speaker 3 (22:41):
Like okay, samastha Sukino Babantu, Isn't that?
May all beings be.

Speaker 1 (22:48):
Yeah, yeah, but like, but I'm saying it like directly
and there's no misunderstandingyour way to tell you, and you
know I, so I think I like thatfor right now.

Speaker 3 (23:01):
And, and I'm up.

Speaker 1 (23:03):
Yeah, I mean, I'm open to whatever.
There's just enough peoplepushing back on it, that like
there's something there, evenyou know.
And I haven't really seen acounter argument other than like
we're honoring, like the Indianheritage and like great.

Speaker 3 (23:22):
Well, that's, that's your job as an educator, that
which is so great, to just pushback a little and be like let's
see, can I poke a hole in this?

Speaker 1 (23:30):
I'm a teacher of the university, right, and so I like
to kind of poke holes at whatwe're making assumptions about
so that we understand if we'reacting like in congruence with
our values and our passions andWell, isn't that what the
practice is?

Speaker 2 (23:43):
those to really take a look at what you're doing, and
so the physical poses are toolsto sort of take a look at what
you're doing in your body.
But that never stops there andit makes you start to take a
look at the meanings of wordsand the meaning of the
expression, like your, yourinternal meeting meaning, and it
just makes you start to take alook at the meaning of words and

(24:05):
all these different places.
I really like how you describedmodern yoga, not meaning modern
yoga or studio, but this, thispractice.
Like we, we are not doing yogaof 1000 years ago or 1500 years
ago, because we are in 2023.
And we are in the West, we'renot in the East.

Speaker 3 (24:26):
I wrote down his his way, expression of our
contemporary present.

Speaker 2 (24:30):
Yeah, exactly and that's that's.
That's such a perfect way todescribe this, and we certainly
have respect and honor for thosepractices but I think that if
we tried to emulate or repeatthose practices, it would be
doing Dishonoring and it wouldbe doing a disservice to us,

(24:54):
because because it's not 1500years ago, it's right now.
And I also really appreciatethe way that you described the,
the power of decision makingthat a student has on their mat,
and you were specificallytalking about power yoga.

(25:16):
You know, if somebody wants tojust sit and breathe or if they
want to do an exercise, that'sfine.
If they want to do everything,that's great.
If they don't, that's okay too.
It's really tuning into honoringyourself, and I get frustrated
isn't the right word.
Sometimes I'm at a loss forexplaining exactly this to

(25:40):
people who call and they're sofearful of being out of place or
looked at like I don't wantanyone to laugh at me.
I've never done this before.
I'm going to feel I don't wantto feel uncomfortable, and it's
hard to explain to somebodywho's already decided, in a
sense, that they're going to beuncomfortable.
That uncomfortable is is okay.
It's actually a gift.
It's something that you canwork with.

Speaker 3 (26:04):
It's so difficult to explain because they you could
use try and say in these fewwords on the phone right, you
don't have to do all of thesethings?
Well, now that you said I don'thave to, it makes me feel like
I can't and I'll look.
Or?
Or they think that all of ourclasses are in some sort of
continuum yes, which, which isactually not the case.

(26:26):
I mean, there's Can't do slowflow.
Or or think they can't becauseof its slow, slow patience, or
holding, or lack of momentum, orwhatever it is.

Speaker 2 (26:40):
And it's really.
There's a huge reflection onour society that we are.
There's this expectation thatif I am not immediately good at
something, I'm going to beshamed and I'm going to feel bad
about myself.
Yeah, and I don't want to feelthat way because most likely I'm

(27:00):
used to feeling that way otherways, other places in my life.
And it's also very clear thatpeople need reinforcement,
positive reinforcement, justlike my granddaughter does.
You know, big and little likeyou're.
You know you are such a greatlittle girl, you are so smart.

(27:22):
That kind of thing to in adultlanguage, and sometimes not even
in adult language, it can be sosimple.
We don't get that in our day today life and we don't get.
It's like such an unusual andodd thing to be given your power
back here.
This is your mat, your body,your practice, your decision,

(27:44):
and I think that's your decisionand even if I am judging your
decision, that's none of yourbusiness.
Like not enough.
You know that's that may,that's that's my problem yeah.
I'm the jerk if I throw judgmentat you.

Speaker 3 (27:58):
I believe that's why some times it's so easy for
people to get emotional in ayoga class is because when they,
when they are given thatfreedom and power, but then God
forbid somebody also is sayingnice words to you or maybe
Respectfully touching you withyou know, it just feels good
like they lose it because wedon't treat each other or

(28:20):
ourselves that sweetly andkindly on the daily, and so all
these bigger cultural, worldlyissues that you're touching on,
like we're practicing like yousaid, josh, we're practicing
that on our mat, like that'sthat's where it starts.

Speaker 2 (28:35):
And if we know, if we don't have a place to reflect
on ourselves, to sit down andReally look at what's going on,
how can we?
How can we do that fairly tobigger issues?

Speaker 1 (28:50):
So this kind of like leads into sort of like well,
how did?
How did I get there anyway,right?
So yeah, I mean I grew up I'mlooking back on it now like with
definitely some kind of complexPTSD, where it was kind of
woven into everything and all myrelationships with my sister,

(29:11):
with my parents, most of therelationships I had with friends
and sort of romantic partnersand that kind of stuff, and and
I just started to notice aboutevery four or five years when I
was younger, like everythingwould just kind of collapse, all
my relationships will collapseand I would almost have to

(29:32):
remake right myself.
And so you know that happens inhigh school, it happened in
college and by the end ofcollege I knew there was
something kind of desperatelywrong.
Like I knew that the rules thatwere kind of set up in the
society that were expressly tobenefit me, like they didn't
feel right, there was somethingnot right about this whole thing

(29:54):
.
So I that's how I ended up inEgypt is I just kind of my
parents are super tolerant andlike we're always really
supportive and like you know, ifI came home and told my dad
like I'm an English lit majorand he was like, as long as
you're the best English at major, you've done the best thing you
can do for yourself.

(30:15):
Like, so, I like, and I wouldjust keep going and going, so I
would call home and so I'mmoving to Egypt.
Egypt that sounds like anamazing experience.
I think you're going totransform in big ways.
Like, okay, so I get Egypt and I, you know, was in like a
master's program over there.
I was in classes with EgyptiansMost of the people that were

(30:37):
responsible for the 2011Egyptian uprising, the top
square.
I did my master's degrees withthem.
I've been in their weddings.
We know each other the MuslimBrotherhood who briefly came to
power, the President, muhammadMorsi I've interviewed him
dozens of times and so I mean,it was like you know, how do I,

(31:03):
how do I?
Kind of like so I and the thingthat kind of became inescapable
right was like I'm living inthis mega city of Cairo, egypt.
20 years ago, they didn't knowhow many people lived there.
They said it was somewherebetween 16 and 20 million, and
it is.
It's an unbelievable place tolive and I completely adapted to

(31:29):
the place and I learned it andI learned, and the thing that
became unmistakable to me waslike, wait a second Like all the
stories I got told as a kidabout my country and like how we
operate in the world and likethere's a lot of really
suspicious behavior.

(31:50):
And you know, I was in Cairowhen 911 happened.
A bunch of my friends went offto Iraq and became very famous
and somewhat disturbedjournalists because of what they
saw and I did my PhD researchin Damascus, syria and in all
over Egypt.
I got tear gas four or fivetimes in Egypt with American

(32:15):
tear gas that gets produced inWestern Pennsylvania, which is
where I grew up.
The tear gas canister had atelephone number with an area
code 724.
And like when you're standingin like a small village town
like Duman, or in Egypt gettingtear gas by tear gas being
produced by the place that yougrew up in.
It's a pretty politicizing sortof way to think about the world

(32:37):
.

Speaker 2 (32:40):
Why were?

Speaker 3 (32:41):
you tear gas.
What was it like?

Speaker 2 (32:42):
to be a white guy at that time.

Speaker 1 (32:46):
So this is completely fascinating.
So this is 2005, november 2005,.
The Egyptian parliamentaryelections are going on and I am
in this village of Duman, orEgypt, which is about 60
kilometers south of Alexandria,so it's in that like fan the fan
of the now delta.
And the reason I was there isbecause there was a Muslim
Brotherhood candidate namedGamal Heshman and he had gotten,

(33:09):
he had had his election stolenfrom him, and so in 2005, like
the community was like reallyready to kind of protect Gamal
Heshman.
So I kept going Duman whore andlike, staying talking Gamal
Heshman, walking around theneighborhood with him, and like
what I could tell from this guyis, even though he was in the
Muslim Brotherhood, he was likea university professor, he was

(33:33):
like a leader in his community,he was an excellent neighbor, he
was, like you know, like if hesaw kids on the street he was
handing them like little sweetsout of his pocket, right.
I mean, just like this is whothis guy was and the government
hated this guy.
So I was with Gamal Heshman andthe entourage all day and it was
about six o'clock at night andthey wanted to go to this voting

(33:57):
station, which was a schoollike a primary school that the
security forces in the centralsecurity forces, the riot police
, were guarding.
They weren't like any voters inRight.
So we're standing in this likesquare and the Brotherhood
people start throwing rocks atthe security and like saying let
us in, let us in.
And so the security startsfiring back tear gas.

(34:20):
So the tear gas lands and itstarts to go off and all I
remember is like these women,old women, coming out of their
balconies, like in the apartmentblocks around, and they had
taken their hijabs and wrappedthem around their noses and
faces and they started dumpinglike baskets of onions over the

(34:42):
the sort of balconies.
And I'm like watching all thisstuff and like some kid he was
probably more like 12, but in mymind's eye he's 10, but I have
a 10 year old, so I don't thinkhe was that young, but I would
say 1213 this 12 year old, 13Egyptian kid goes over, grabs
this onion, cracks it againstthe concrete and I'm like I'm

(35:05):
going to receive the curve, thecurve right and jams this onion
into my face and all of a suddenevery sort of liquid pour in my
body, drained, and the tear gaswas gone and the only thing I
could think of in that momentwas he's fucking done that

(35:27):
before.
Like the entire community sprunginto action and knew what to do
and did it and did it Children.
So you know and like you know.
And then you know there wereother parts of like living in
Kyra like it was anauthoritarian state run by a
dictator that was in power for30 years trying to put his son

(35:48):
into power.
Like it was corrupt and thepolice were corrupt, but like I
don't think I've ever lived in asociety that is more
democratically connected to oneanother through human
interaction.

Speaker 3 (36:03):
Transcending the rest of that.

Speaker 1 (36:06):
Everybody knows you in your apartment block.
You know everybody.
You need salt or sugar, youknock on a neighbor's door.
You're in the street, randomperson, opportunity for
conversation.
Whether you wanted or not,they're going to talk to you and
it's not because you're sort ofan American, like it's anybody,
haven't we democratizedourselves into the opposite now?

(36:29):
Exactly.

Speaker 3 (36:31):
Where you're not, you're going to wait.
Wait, I'm going to help you,but wait a minute.
Which side of this are you on?

Speaker 1 (36:37):
I'm like Egyptians just understood, like
instinctively, like the state isnot here to help us, it's not
here to educate us, it's nothere to feed us, it's not here
to give us health care.
We do that so like, if you know, they noticed the bridge was
collapsing, like it was like acommunal affair.
People are coming out with ducttape and building scaffoldings

(36:58):
and because they don't wantanybody to get hurt, right, and
it's just like.

Speaker 3 (37:05):
So you understand the sentiment of why the United
States of America was createdand we're still young but I
don't know what the rest of mysentence or question is Like
what?

Speaker 1 (37:22):
Well, you know, for me, right, it's a choice.
We can choose to livedifferently.
We can choose to kind ofinteract with the structures
that organize our livesdifferently.
And you know, the reason why mebecoming an academic was kind
of such a difficult experienceemotionally and sort of

(37:47):
spiritually was because, likeyou sit in a room by yourself
and you have to like pop outoccasionally with like some sort
of product that like provesthat you're worthy.
And I was pretty good at that.
I got very good at that game.
And you know, the problem waswhen I got to the ultimate stage

(38:07):
of my career, like I didn'teven I felt empty, proud that I
had produced this thing, butempty.
And you know, my relations withmy students were restrained, my
relationships with mycolleagues were estranged.
You know, things were not goodin my house, like I mean, you

(38:30):
know, and so all of this stuffwas me not dealing with that
sort of complex PTSD and 2019was basically just one big crash
.
And in January, like after Ihad read all about love by Bill
Hooks and I had been working andworking, like you know, I was

(38:51):
trying all kinds of stuff, likeI try going to a church and they
had, like you know, meditativereadings, and that was awesome.
And the second that there was aproblem in Israel and Palestine
.
And I said, can I please tellthese people what is going on in
Israel and Palestine, since wetalk about these places every
Sunday?
And they said, no, I was likeI'm out, this is not the right

(39:16):
place, this is not where this isgoing to happen.
It's too much of acontradiction for me to be here,
and so you know, I just thinkthat to me, this is the stuff
that matters and I think we cancontrol these spaces.
And so, being an academic right, I was unraveling this stuff in
January of 2020.

(39:36):
And, like, my second bookarrived on my doorstep on March
11, 2020.
And I first saw it and I said,oh, what did I order from Amazon
?
My wife is going to kill me.
And I kind of cracked the bookand I saw it was my book and I
thought, oh cool, I shot it andI threw it off to the side.

(39:58):
So I was like we'll open thattonight.
And we were literally sittingon the couch with the book
holding it.
And, like you know, they go onand they cancel the NBA season,
right, it comes on the TV, andthen and then and so then what I
did because I was on researchleave is I just sort of like,

(40:22):
did like some sort of Jokerlaugh and shut my computer and
was like I'm not going to thinkabout that for like six months.
And lockdown for me was a timeperiod of being outside with my
kids and reading whatever Iwanted to read and just kind of

(40:44):
practicing my home yoga cooking.

Speaker 3 (40:47):
I did so much cooking , I mean did you have a
sourdough starter, like the restof America?

Speaker 1 (40:53):
I did, but I had no patience for that.
So, yeah, yeah, so I mean itwas, I mean so that and that,
then, and so yoga, meditation,sort of intermittent fasting
that I practice.
I like cold and hot heat andcold therapy or exposure.

(41:13):
You know, these are all kind ofmy practice at journaling.
Obviously it's a big practiceof mine.
How long have you beenjournaling.

Speaker 2 (41:23):
What's your journaling practice?

Speaker 1 (41:24):
like my whole life my whole life I've been journaling
Like I can go find journals inmy parents' house from like 25
years ago, from when I'mtraveling places and writing
down things.

Speaker 3 (41:34):
And do you, do you like that?
Does that do anything for thedealing with the PTSD?

Speaker 1 (41:41):
So I mean, I think it does and I think that the
process that I've been on sinceJanuary of 2020 is really one
about embodiment, right, Like Itold Joyce this story once, like
I listened to yoga with Adrianand tell me for five months,
like, feel your feet in theground and like one day I felt

(42:04):
my feet and I could not.
I mean, I used to tell DawnRivers at Daybreak Yoga that I
didn't take a conscious breathuntil I was 43.
Right, I mean, and like youknow, I have like a pretty nice
marathoning career in my 30s andI mean you know I have all
these, but like none of it wasreally contemplative or all of

(42:26):
it was sort of contemplative.
I just didn't really understandit.
The reason I like to write isbecause I can get into a zone
like all time just, and I'mexisting in some other space.

Speaker 2 (42:39):
Yeah, You're in.
You're in the flow state.

Speaker 1 (42:43):
I'm in the flow state , right, and so really this
whole project has been aboutbecoming more embodied,
understanding myself, moreunderstanding that I'm changed,
like deep observation of thebreath, but like tying all these
parts together, integratingthem all together, and then you
know, I mean I have the best jobin the world.

(43:05):
I get to deal with 18 to 22year olds, and temporarily.
Well, I mean absolutely rightand but.
But the thing about it is isright, like I think that we've
forgotten how difficult it is tobe 18 or 22.
And especially, you know theylive on these, these devices,

(43:28):
all the time and like literallytheir college experiences, they
come into the room and you tellthem like hey, you guys can
relax, I'm a nice guy, and theyjust do not relax.
I've surveyed my students like60% of them have anxiety on the
first day of class.

Speaker 3 (43:45):
Yeah, I was just going to say being able to be a
student among them.
It was a creative writingprogram, so we were all you know
.
There was maybe 12 to 15students together.
They were, you know, mostlyyounger.
There was the occasional adultwith me, but I remember some of
these kids saying it wasn'teverybody's major necessarily.

(44:05):
They were some in these classesand I don't know.
I don't have anything to writeabout.
I don't have anything to writeabout.
And we had some great professorsat Baldwin Wallace, a younger
than me guy, probably about yourage, michael Garaga.
He was just great at justconversing.
And so, through conversing,come to find out some of these

(44:27):
kids had already lost theirparents or a sibling, or had a
major illness or abuse orabandonment.
And there, there I was in my40s.
I still had both my parents,who were still married and just
live in my baloney and mayo onwhite bread life and I'm like
you guys think you have nothingto write about.
They were all not all, but mostsuffering from anxiety,

(44:54):
depression, you know, sexualityissues, gender issues, a lot, a
lot wrong.

Speaker 2 (45:04):
They didn't recognize it because it was such a part
of them right.

Speaker 1 (45:09):
They recognize all the things wrong and that they
well, the system, the system ispointing one thing after another
about how these are alldeficiencies in your core being
and, you know, need to bealtered, changed, beautified,
slimmed down, I mean right.
So this is the context they'regrowing up in.
Then, like they go from oneclass to another where you have

(45:30):
somebody telling, like, if youdon't understand that, like you
know, the English parliamentworks in this way like, forget
it, you can just forget life,you're not going to get paid,
you're going to live as a bum,like which I always tell them
like it is not true, but likethat's happening to them.
Five classes a week, right.
And then the last thing is like, when they call home, right At

(45:53):
the end of the day, it's what'dyou do today?
What did you produce?
Are you wasting our money?
What's going to you know?
And so like they don't have anyadvocates or allies and they
basically have to emerge inadulthood on their own.
And so one thing I do is I tryto be an adult that cares for
them, that supports them, andalso like an adult that they

(46:16):
feel comfortable and safe,emerging around Right.
And this is required drasticchanges in my pedagogy or
teaching approach.
So, like Paulo Fieri, thepedagogy of the oppressed, where
he basically says if you wantthis to work right, it has to be
in a sort of non-hierarchical,decentralized way of like a

(46:36):
learning community, meaning thatthe student is learning as well
as the teacher's learning.
So you have like a tie thereand then you know to bring it
back to sort of like blackfeminism.
Like black feminism, they writethe policies of my classrooms.
It's a very simple sort ofstatement, like if we are free,

(46:57):
everybody is free, right.
And so you might have heard oftrickle down economics, which is
like the ideology that we wereraised on, that like eventually
the money is going to trickledown.
We like to call this in myclassroom bottom up democracy,
because if the most marginalized, the most discriminated against
, the most invisible person isseen, then everybody's seen and

(47:21):
taken care of and we don't haveto sit around.
Okay, well, you like thesepeople more than these people
Like real equality, like Ireally haven't found a problem
that equality doesn't solve.
And you know the other thingthat what you're describing,
Mary Beth, is that's my life.
Like I have my politicalpositions because I've got to

(47:45):
deal with trans students that Ihad as a boy and then became a
woman and then got kicked out ofhis house and then needed
mental health counseling at KentState University, which they
wouldn't provide to her for likesix or eight weeks.
They told her go to the LGBTQthing at Cleveland Clinic, but
she doesn't have a car.
Like how's she going to getthere?
Like I mean, and it's just likeit's absurd.

(48:09):
And so what I did is I made aphone call over to the
counseling thing and I said hi,this is Professor Stacker, I
need to talk to who's in charge.
I have a student that I needyou to see, and they were in
there at 1230.
Right, and so, like, exactly.
And so once I figured out, like,oh, like, people listen to me
in that capacity or whatever youknow, and so I just I can't

(48:34):
have, I can't really haveexclusionary politics and do
what I do, because what do I dofor the black Palestinian
student in my class Right?
Or what do I do for, you know,a Jewish student in my class or
a poor student in my class Right?
And so what I do is I constructthese sort of classrooms right,

(48:57):
where they become really muchabout expression and people
share amazingly traumatic thingsthat happen to them with me,
and I usually respond like oneplease go talk to a professional
about this, I will help you setthat up, which they never want

(49:18):
to do.
And then, secondly, they justkind of say something like to me
, like, look, I'm not going tohurt myself or anything, I just
wanted somebody to hear.
And so, like, I become liketheir witness, right.
And then you know, we build,come back, classroom community.

(49:39):
And so the reason why I ended upin YTT, right, is like I have
this theory that I can teach mycollege classrooms like a yoga
class.
I mean, they're essentially thesame thing in my mind.
I start my classes with the twoto three minute meditation, so
we get grounded in right.
And then we do, you know, fouror five minutes of movement,

(50:00):
just sort of chair yoga, right,just to kind of get into our
seats.
And then we do five minutes oflike community time.
Does anybody have anything ofany importance that they want to
discuss?
Did your win some award?
Did your girlfriend break upwith you?
Like, what do you need to getout?
Right, and then we have thatmoment and then we move into the

(50:22):
like the topic of the day.
I give all my students reading,podcast and documentary sort of
options.
They don't have to do all three.
I'd like for them to do one ofthe three.
So if you learn visually, watchthe documentary.
If you got a part-time job,listen to the podcast.
And if you're a reader whichthere are not many of us left,

(50:43):
but if you're a reader thenthere you go, right, and
students appreciate the options.
And then they appreciate thejournals because they can
express to me what goes on, andI don't really grade their
journals, so I don't go oh, thisis an A journal and that's a B
journal.
I just give them credit for it,sort of like what we do at YTT.

(51:05):
The thing I do do is I providethem like meaningful feedback.
So they send me like a Googledocument with their thoughts and
I, in the Google document,return shots back Like wow, if
you like this, listen to thatpodcast.
If you like this, read thatbook, right.
And so I have really meaningfulsort of exchanges with my

(51:30):
students.
So then, after we do the 50minutes right, then we sort of
like decompress the last 10minutes and then we have a
minute of gratitude and thenthat's we in class.

Speaker 3 (51:44):
Yeah, so you probably have a more effective 30 minute
curriculum time than many using50 minutes for it.

Speaker 1 (51:54):
Minimum relevant words.

Speaker 2 (51:57):
MRW.

Speaker 1 (51:59):
Well, and the other thing is like if you do have
students that have options like,okay, I won't read but I'll
watch a documentary, or I won'tbut I'll listen, like more
people come to class having donesomething and so they can do
more of the collective sort oflifting of the class, and then I
can go into like completespontaneous mode.

(52:19):
You know, like I was sort ofjoking, every time I get a new
YTT that becomes a T and it'slike they stick to the script,
right, and I notice I do thesame thing too.
And then the longer you do ityou get a little bit more
creative and you know there's alittle more spontaneity and that
just becomes from a mastery ofsort of repetition.

(52:40):
Right, you know instinctivelywhen the moment to change
courses, you know instinctivelyhow to read the room and you
know so having this ability kindof in my mid-career academia as
a teacher, to go through YTTand basically sort of been like

(53:01):
rethinking how to teach,rethinking how to like get
somebody into an experience,rethinking how to stay out of
the way, right, rethinking whata trauma-informed, inclusive
room looks like, right, I do itin my work and I do it in my
yoga practice and so there'sjust like deep synergy.

(53:22):
And you know, I am a regular atthe 9.30 Monday through Friday,
and the reason that is isbecause my wife and I split how
we do it.
I handle the morning, shehandles the afternoons, so I
don't actually have to be downat Kent until about noon and
then I'll stay till you know sixor so, and then she goes in

(53:44):
early and so I get the kids offto the bus and once they're off
the bus, what I do is I do yogaand that's like the start of my
day is that transition and thatsets up the rest of the day.

Speaker 3 (53:57):
Yeah, what a nice transition.

Speaker 1 (54:00):
It sets up my teaching, it sets up my
compassion.
I'm just more balanced that way.
And then, so you know, I comehome from work and I've had
nothing but amazing, thoughtful,meaningful exchanges all day
with these like 18 to 22 yearolds who they don't adore me

(54:22):
because of who I am.
They adore me because of how Iam with them.
And then you make them feelright.
And then I come home and like Idon't like, how was your day
Amazing.
Like this happened in this appRight.
And so there's less stress onthose relationships.
What does your wife do, Josh?
My wife works for the legaldepartment at the Cleveland

(54:45):
Clinic.
She, like coordinates all thatstuff.

Speaker 3 (54:51):
Okay, so she's not an academic.
How is it having a partner andnot knowing anything about her?
How is it having a partner whenyou're going through such an
arguably unusual journey ormethod of things?
We all don't, you know, walkthe same gates down these paths.

(55:12):
How's that?

Speaker 1 (55:16):
Oh, it's a great question, I mean.
So my wife's name is Yasta andshe moved to the United States
in 1999.
She had lived in Germany forfive years before that and she
had grown up in Bosnia, in theformer Yugoslavia, and they were

(55:38):
forcibly moved from their home,from.
They lost their house, theirdog, their mom left with like a
bag of documents when Yasta was16.
And you know, they went toGermany and she learned German

(56:00):
and then they moved here and shehad to learn English.
They lived in Houston for ayear and they lived in Cleveland
because there was a lot offormer Yugoslavia on the east
side where they were.
My mother-in-law andfather-in-law still live and you
know Yasta had to go tocommunity college for a couple

(56:21):
of years before she couldtransfer into CSU and get out of
CSU debt-free, like she very,very sort of I mean immigrant
about this place.
She has big family, these sortsof things.
And so you know, I think that mycareer as an academic, right it

(56:45):
was driven by my complex PTSDto like keep performing right,
and I mean, you know I've had adoor gas since the moment I met
her, but I had a part-timemanaging sort of that complex

(57:07):
PTSD, that ability to performthe sort of ego-driven things.
Like you know, I can rememberone time I was pacing the Akron
Marathon that happens on aSaturday in September and this
outfit called and said can youcome to Helsinki and give a talk
?
And I was like yes, and she waslike what?

(57:28):
And I said I've never been toHelsinki, like whatever.
And like I flew to Helsinki onlike a Tuesday, landed on a
Wednesday, went for a 12-milerun in the rain, went to bed,
got up, ran another 12 miles,went to bed, came back, got
showered, gave the lecture, hadthe lunch and then was taken to

(57:52):
the airport and I landed at like11 o'clock on Friday night and
at six in the morning.
I was like leading the 335 pacegroup and like this was my life
, like that.
I mean I had a friend one timeinvite me to Austin, texas, to
participate in the workshop onFriday and Saturday and the
Austin Marathon was on Sunday.

(58:12):
So I just stayed the extranight, ran the Austin Marathon.
I ran the first part of it inlike a 340 pace and the last six
miles I was like maybe like 645pace because I was working on
fast turnover late in a racewhen your legs are tired.
And then, you know, went andhad Mexican, got on a plane, got

(58:33):
back and taught it 930 the nextmorning.

Speaker 3 (58:35):
Yeah, I mean you're all these wonderful qualities
that you've arrived at now,especially as a teacher and
professor, I mean you have to bedifficult to live with or have
had to have been difficult tolive in the past.
I mean we, you know, this islike you're.

(58:56):
You're driven by something thatshe may understand because
she's she's had some stuff.
But a person like myself wouldbe like, look, I don't know
what's going on in there, but Ijust don't know if I can hang on
to the caboose while you flyaround.

Speaker 1 (59:13):
So, yes, not like she truly is my soulmate in respect
that she is like the otheropposite of me.
And because of her experiencesand because of my experiences,
like you know, the kids willcome over and say, like can we
get a new Nintendo?
And I'm like, sure, why not?
And she comes out and says wehave a Nintendo, why would we

(59:33):
need a second one?
Like what is wrong with youpeople?
Why do all you want to do isconsume?
Like why don't we just go tomom's house and have dinner,
right?
And so you know, yeah, I mean,and I think that you're yang,
yeah, exactly, and like, so, youknow, I mean, she's just like a
steady rock and you know, Ineed, like I need her.

(59:58):
And like, look, I'd lived inthe middle east, I know lots of
displaced populations, like Iknow tons of Palestinians, right
, and so I knew what a refugeeexperience looked like,
abstractly and through a livedexperience of somebody else, and
so there's a lot of trauma andhurt there too, but that's okay,

(01:00:18):
I mean.
I think we're here to kind ofpull out this sort of toxic
stuff and sort of find a betterway to live.

Speaker 3 (01:00:28):
And how wonderful to have found that partner, because
you're not for everyone.

Speaker 1 (01:00:33):
Absolutely not.

Speaker 3 (01:00:35):
I mean, none of us are.

Speaker 1 (01:00:37):
So it's on top of everything else there tends to
be a little bit of level ofintensity that yeah.
But I mean, look, all of thisstuff came into the service,
like.
So one of the things I startedteaching, like after the
pandemic right, was like why dowe live this way?

(01:00:58):
Like what is about it that welive this way?
And so we started looking atlike some Karl Marx stuff just
to see what his analysis was andlike ultimately, what the
students and I came down uponwas the idea that, like economic
structures that are run forprofit, they can't be human,
they just can't.
There's no human aspect to it.

(01:01:19):
And so we are forced in thiscountry to engage with our
economic structures so that wecan make a living, and like we
can debate about whether we haveenough or too little healthcare
or too much or too littleeducation, I mean or less of a
defense budget.
Maybe we can talk about all ofthese different qualities, but I

(01:01:45):
think ultimately that what thestudents understood and what
they taught me is like you don'thave to be the economic
structure, like it's a machinethat you sort of zap into, get
what you need and then pull outof you don't like, and where I
think most of our generationcame from is like the funnel,

(01:02:07):
like you are what you do, right.

Speaker 2 (01:02:09):
And then if you do something you lose your identity
essentially in this funnel.

Speaker 1 (01:02:15):
Absolutely, 100% right, and I mean it's hard, and
so it's like how do we maintainour humanity when, effectively,
we're in these economicstructures that are deeply
violent and also dehumanizingright?

Speaker 2 (01:02:34):
And I think that, like there's so many things that
these ideas that you'vementioned that tie together,
that so you at some pointrealized I might have complex
PTSD.
You're seeing that in your kidsthat you teach they don't

(01:02:54):
realize they have complex PTSDand then they think they have
nothing to write about becausenobody is telling them that
they're interesting or valuableor everything they're hearing
from the outside world or theirinside world is that they're not
good enough because they're notfollowing the economic
structure.
And so people end up takingcourses in life or following

(01:03:21):
paths to follow money andsuccess but deny their true
being.
And then I wonder why we're allangry, exactly.

Speaker 3 (01:03:32):
But then also the realization that you do have to
tap into that economic structurefor healthcare, for clean water
, for safe roads.
So that's the muddle that weare in is how to balance that.
Like we can't pretend, like Idon't wanna go live on a dirt

(01:03:55):
road with no indoor plumbing andnot tap into the economic
structure.
So we're just no, no, no keep,because that's what I mean keep
going.

Speaker 2 (01:04:06):
Yeah, yeah.
So you lived in a differentcountry for nine years.
I visited Nepal for two weekson a mission trip and they don't
have indoor plumbing everywhereand there isn't electricity
everywhere and I came back and Iworked with we worked with kids
who were sold into slavery andrescued from slavery and things

(01:04:26):
like that.
And I came back to the UnitedStates like really understanding
or thinking how privileged weare.
But then I look back at thethings that weren't terrible
over there and, like you said,everybody knows each other, like

(01:04:46):
there's community, like truecommunity, because you don't
have all of this other stuff.
It's about survival to a degree, but it's also about I felt
like after that trip I was likeI prefer that type of trip over,
like a vacation, because I feltthat I lived in the culture.

(01:05:09):
You can go sit at a pool anddrink margaritas, anywhere, the
sun shines, but if you don'tever leave that property and get
into the culture, you're notreally having the experience of
being in a different place.

Speaker 1 (01:05:24):
So it really reminds me of this old, like Islamic,
saying that I used to hear whenI lived in Egypt.
A lot something like travel isa moral hazard and it's to be
undertaken like, with incrediblecarefulness, like it's a sacred
journey.
You only do it, really, if youneed to know something right?

(01:05:47):
It's sort of the opposite ofleisure travel, right?
Or how leisure travel getspracticed today, which again,
like, if we pull the thread, itgets very back to sort of money,
right.

Speaker 3 (01:05:59):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:06:02):
So one of the places that I love how you frame that,
joyce and one of the places thatwe just got back from vacation
was the Dominican Republic.
So I have a very active nineyear old who is a pretty decent
athlete and he's on a non-newbaseball team.
They went down to the Dominicanand they played all these
Dominican kids and it was greatbecause let's just clarify.

Speaker 2 (01:06:25):
Josh took his nine year old to the Dominican
Republic to play baseball.

Speaker 1 (01:06:30):
It's a position of extreme flibridge, yes, but like
the thing about it is is likewe got to be with the families
that we spent the last year withand we spend so much time
together with baseball that itdoes sort of have this sort of
family vibe.
And because you spend so muchtime together, right, you can't

(01:06:52):
talk about the weather and notreligion forever, right.
Eventually people start to showtheir cards, real relationships
you're having, and then you'restarting to navigate these
relationships and like, holyshit, it feels like community,
which is why I think a lot ofparents are okay paying a couple
of thousand dollars to playsports, because it sort of buys

(01:07:16):
them sort of access to otherhumans that they then there have
to make a campfire with and so.
But the other thing I was gonnasay about like our privileges
and these sorts of things, Iheard a couple of people on this
trip say something like, man, Iam so glad I'm American and
like we weren't born here, right, because there was pretty bad

(01:07:39):
poverty.
And you know, I mean,unfortunately, my poverty meter.
I've been to India, I've beento China, I've been to, I've
lived in Egypt.
Like the Dominican isincredibly poor, but it's not
anything like those places, andthat's not to minimize what's
there, but I think more likelyto like reframe how we think

(01:08:02):
about.
Like man, I'm so glad that weare like maybe we live this way
because they live that way, likethey're structured into a
certain economic thing thatbasically says, okay, the
Dominican Republic, what can weget here?
The Nanas?
Okay, what else can we get here?
Baseball players, anything else, like nope, that's it right.

(01:08:24):
And so that's how the yeah,that's it right, exactly.
And so you know, I think that,in a way, right because of the
immense privileges that we have,right, other people are sort of
have to live in sort of extremepoverty for that to happen.
I mean, like, if you thinkabout, like, traveling in planes

(01:08:46):
, right, only 6% of the world'spopulation gets on a plane.
And we do it without eventhinking oh we won't even show
up on time, right Like, we showup, like okay, is it ready to go
?

Speaker 3 (01:08:59):
Like what do we do and?

Speaker 1 (01:09:00):
complain about how it's how we have to be happy.
You gotta search me, right?
I mean yeah, so.

Speaker 2 (01:09:05):
I mean Somebody had said to me after my trip to
Nepal, like well, why wouldn'tyou just leave if you live there
?
I'm like well, the dollarexchange is 75 to one, so
families traditionally ortypically make two to 300 rupees
a month.
And that is nothing.

Speaker 3 (01:09:26):
I mean the valiant struggle of immigrants that made
it here and our working here isunbelievable On such a smaller
scale.
I just wanna tell a story thatwhen we were kids, my dad just
cause you brought baseball intoit my dad was a huge baseball
fan and we did go on vacationevery year but we didn't really

(01:09:48):
have the means to go anywhere.
You know fancy, but along thoselines of travel, opening a
Pandora's box, my dad, cominghome from Cleveland Indians
games, would drive us throughpoverty-stricken neighborhoods
on purpose and we were teenagegirls and we would roll our eyes

(01:10:10):
and be like, seriously, dad,and he said do you think these
people don't love their children?
Do you think these peoplearen't working hard for their
children?
And those are the kind ofthings that so that was just a
little tiny bit of travel offthe mean suburban streets of
Middleburg Heights and to innercity Cleveland.

(01:10:31):
But exposing ourselves and ourchildren to that Pandora's box
and making you think, making youfeel sick or guilty or at least
examine what's going on, is aPandora's box, cause you can't
unknow what you know.
And then that, and just likeyour yoga journey and your other

(01:10:55):
journey that I was asking about, your wife, this makes it
difficult to have somerelationships in our lives.
It makes us roll our eyes ateach other.
You know, people start rollingtheir eyes at you at what you're
saying and then you too arelike rolling your eyes at what
you know.
It's like what you just saidabout glad we were born in

(01:11:16):
America.
My granddaughter who's nine, westopped on our way taking her
home to North Carolina at somekind of rundown farmers market
just nice, normal people,farmers and stuff and she said
something like oh, this is kindof gross.
I'm glad we're not poor.
And I became my dad and I wasdriving so I said to my husband,

(01:11:42):
handed him the phone and I saidlook up humility and we need to
talk about the definition ofthis.
And it was fine, she's a sweetgirl.

Speaker 2 (01:11:53):
It was fine, but it's like she's nine, like yeah, but
it's an interesting reflectionof that society's head on her.

Speaker 1 (01:12:03):
Exactly right.
I mean, she's just saying whatshe's learned, right, and I
think this is the thing likehaving really deep, meaningful
relationship with people thathave utterly different
experiences than yourself, likethey're hard right, because it's
not like they're not you like,but it's also like where we

(01:12:26):
learn a lot.
And I think that, like you know, like I said, being a member of
, like, daybreak Yoga for 18months, like it was an
unbelievable sort of experience,right, and it was so meaningful
, and like all the differenttypes of people that I work with
, whether they're Asian or, youknow, whether they're Indian or

(01:12:51):
whatever these people will makesuch a deep impact on my life
that, like I almost feel likeI'm suffocating Living like we
live, which is basicallyracially sort of segregated.

Speaker 3 (01:13:06):
And because of your living in other places and what
you'd already been through, youat that yoga studio in Bedford
stuck with it.
How many people would have beena white male gone in there one
time and been like nope.

Speaker 1 (01:13:27):
Well, you know, I had read a bunch of this book and a
bunch of this black feminism,like I knew what they were
talking about, I knew what thehealing culture was, and so, you
know, I kind of I knew whatsome of the triggers were right,
and so I could allow them justto be themselves, and then I

(01:13:50):
could be myself, and then youhave organic relationship making
.

Speaker 3 (01:13:55):
And be unselfconscious as yourself,
which is what most of us wouldstruggle with in that situation.

Speaker 1 (01:14:01):
Well, yeah, but I mean, like Egypt beat that out
of me, right.
Like the number of rooms that Iwas the only white guy in and I
mean it was good too right,because I would hear different
points of view.
And, like you know, it's reallydifficult to have a really good
friend who looks you in the eye, that you've like studied and

(01:14:23):
got master's degrees from, andhe says, like you know, the
reason why the security comes inmy house is because you know,
your government allows it tohappen.
Man, that's rough man, like youknow, and there's no Obama,
biden, trump out of it, like allof them right are in on it.

Speaker 3 (01:14:42):
Oh yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:14:44):
And you know, and so again, it's this like question
that we're faced with.
These are our politicalstructures, these are our
economic structures.
How do we navigate those withskill?
How do we extract from thoseexperiences what we need, not
what we want, right.
And then how do we get out ofthose structures and into sort
of campfire settings or placeswhere we sing together or places

(01:15:08):
where we practice yoga together, right?
I mean, I think that's whypeople clap at the end of power,
because, like, collectively,we've done something that we are
plotting all of us for right.
It's just like it's like theone time in the studio where
everybody sort of is like arecognized collective right.

Speaker 3 (01:15:29):
Yeah, a little fist pump at the end like whoo.

Speaker 1 (01:15:32):
Yeah, yeah, we just did a thing.

Speaker 2 (01:15:35):
Yeah, yeah, we just, and that's I'm really glad you
said that because it's, I thinkit's just become so normal that
it's just there.
But we do kind of talk aboutthis sometimes, like why are
they clapping?
Because the class, as we talkabout teacher training, the
class isn't about me.
I hope you're clapping foryourself, right?

Speaker 3 (01:15:58):
that's what it's like .
I don't want you to be clapping, like I just finished an aria
and you're clapping for me.
We have to struggle with that.
We've known a teacher beforewho, when everyone's eyes were
closed in Shavasana, surroundedherself with candles, so that
when they came back at the endshe was like a glow in the
middle and like that's the lastthing.
We want to feel like we'redoing.

Speaker 1 (01:16:19):
Yeah, see, I take it as a collective cheer.
You know, egyptians andDominicans, we, when we land in
the Dominican Republic, all theDominicans on the plane clapped.
And Egyptians have beenclapping when the plane landed
for as long as I've been goingto Egypt and I always think it's
pretty amazing Like there'sthis expectation that, like you,

(01:16:42):
may not come back down on theground, we might not make it
yeah.
Right, and when you get on theground, it's like okay, like
thank you for getting us heresafely, we're all getting there
safely, right, and like when welanded in Newark from the
Dominican silent plane.

Speaker 3 (01:16:59):
Yeah, like, where's my bag?

Speaker 1 (01:17:03):
Exactly.
Can we get this?
Can this be any faster?
Cause I'm a slightly bored toget off this plane Right and
then like so it's just.
I think to me, like I find thatpeople in the developing world,
people in the sort of globalSouth, like black women in
America, they're excellentteachers, because the conditions

(01:17:24):
that they're under are muchmore incredibly difficult than I
face, and like the responses tothe conditions that they face
of like utter invisibility,dehumanization, all the rest of
stuff it has to manifest.
The opposition has to manifestitself in life, in abundance,
and like that's the lesson, likethat's how we learn to live,

(01:17:44):
that's how we learn to like holdone another in sort of like a
yoga space.

Speaker 3 (01:17:49):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:17:49):
Right.

Speaker 3 (01:17:50):
It's like it all goes back to that Maslow's hierarchy
of needs, like all of our needsare really met.
All those lower things are met,we can take for granted, so we
can worry about these otherthings.
Other people have to find joyand at the same time try and eat
or not die or be killed orwhatever, and at the same time,

(01:18:15):
we have to defend our Americanideals of freedom, prosperity,
safety, like I said, clean water, clean roads.
So this is it's a lot to tryand figure out and not be an
a-hole in one direction or theother, which is so such an
inarticulate way.

(01:18:36):
I'm saying this, but like we'rejust being a-holes to each
other about every issue.
If you don't agree with me,you're clearly fucking nuts and
get off my feet.

Speaker 1 (01:18:46):
And this is not how we're gonna have any results or
any resolution at all, and Iliked so.
I was trying to do something onovercoming trauma through yoga
from my book report, but Idecided to read the Gita and I
am so glad that I did thatbecause like, particularly the
parts but they're like inactionis not a decision.
Like you can't just be inactive, right, and the famous sort of

(01:19:11):
labor historian, howard Zinnellhe said you can't be neutral on
a moving train.
Right, and to me, right, Ithink we can all.
And like when people look athow I handle my classrooms, it
can't.
Or how, like, of course, theylike you, you don't really judge
them Like no cause, I don'twant to judge them.
Like I want to help them likeemerge and feel safe, like they

(01:19:32):
have valid opinions andexperiences and everything else
because they do.

Speaker 2 (01:19:36):
Well, like yesterday, go ahead, Barbara.
Well, yesterday in training wetalked a moment about how you
don't know, as a yoga teacher,if a student has really heard
what you said, because it mightnot really land until the next

(01:19:59):
class or the next class or thenext year, or off the mat or in
the grocery store.
And Josh, you're nodding yourhead cause you said, yeah, kids
will come back later after class, after the semester, after they
graduate, and say you were onto something.
I really learned something here.

Speaker 3 (01:20:18):
You don't it's like when Josh finally connected with
grounding at just Eddie Ogles.
It wasn't the first time, itwasn't the first 10 times.

Speaker 2 (01:20:25):
Right.
The first time you took aconscious breath you were 43,
you know like who taught that.
Everybody did before you tookthat breath.

Speaker 1 (01:20:34):
Yeah, and I mean this is why, like you know, I know
that there's some trepidationaround like, well, I go to a
class and somebody doessomething and I like it and I
borrow it and I put it in like Idon't see that as like
plagiaristic or because, likeone, I couldn't represent the

(01:20:57):
way that that person did thething that I'm borrowing at this
point.
If I wanted to, I couldn't doit the exact same way they did,
so I can only do it like I cando it, which means that it has
to go through some sort oftransformative process inside of
my body before it comes out,and in the process of it coming
out, it's now mine or it's nowpublic knowledge.

Speaker 2 (01:21:17):
Right, and let's face it, we aren't inventing
anything here.

Speaker 3 (01:21:21):
No, yeah, thousands of years old.
The other thing I wanted to sayrelative for how you run your
classroom or treat kids there isthat you have the knowledge of
knowing that everywhere elsethey're being judged and pushed

(01:21:41):
and put in boxes.
So what would the world be likeif everyone was like you?
Who knows?
But you don't have to worryabout that, because 99% of the
time they're not getting heardor allowed to be who they are.
So you might be the only placethey get seen and are seen and

(01:22:04):
met for who they are.

Speaker 1 (01:22:06):
A lot of power, and not my power, it's their power,
right, I'm recognizing theirpower.
I tell my students two thingsright.
One, the first thing I alwaysthis is like first or second
class, and I say it everysemester I don't care what
you're going to do with yourlife in terms of a profession,

(01:22:27):
that's something your parentsthink about.
I care about how you're goingto be in this world, and that
seems to land really well withthem.
And the second thing I tellthem is that there's no such
thing as teachers and studentslike as definitive things.
It's a flow state, and so thedifference is, if you have a

(01:22:48):
little bit more experience thanthe other people around you, you
get the you're talking and thestudents should know when to be
quiet.
And if the student starts tosort of teach, then it's up to
the teacher to know oh, they'reteaching.
Now I have to go into sort ofstudent mode.

Speaker 3 (01:23:06):
And so it's just and as he said that, watching this
Zoom call right, I see threefaces me, you and Joyce and
whichever of us is talking isthe one that's highlighted and
lit up in this square.
Right, I don't know what yourview looks like, but so that's
what it's like.
Then, when your student startsto talk, your square unlights
and it's them Absolutely Well.

(01:23:27):
We're all the student and theteacher.

Speaker 2 (01:23:30):
Are you saying that you want a square to light up
around you?

Speaker 3 (01:23:34):
You light up my light .
They're just a little younger,so I don't know if you remember
that Debbie Boone classic.

Speaker 1 (01:23:43):
I do, I do.
I catch most of your references, but I sometimes think, oh,
there's gonna be people who haveno idea who that is.

Speaker 3 (01:23:52):
Oh right, I forget what I said yesterday and it was
oh, I know, I do know I wastrying to talk about grounding,
rooting, but in a seat, in aneasy seat, and I said does
anybody remember the ash traysof the 1970s where it was like a
beanbag bottom that was heavy?
I do.
I do Cover your face Right,because that's the feeling I

(01:24:15):
want to impart like, let yourbutt be that heavy, your
grounded.
And then, yeah, it just fellapart and there's a couple of
people that are old and theylook at me like what are you
doing?
Really, I remember those.

Speaker 2 (01:24:30):
Somebody in teacher training it might have been
yesterday said because we'retalking about like stuff that
comes out of your mouth, andsomebody said that you say, mary
Beth, I've never heard you saythis, but like you'll say
something funny, that kind ofsurprises you.
And then you're like what othershit have I said, like what
else is coming out of my mouth?
But I've done the thing whereI'm like I'm like the cruise

(01:24:55):
director, I'm like Julie McCoy,and then I'm like oh shit.
Anybody know who Julie McCoy is,and it's like a few people
raise their hand and then I'mlike, forget it, just forget it.

Speaker 1 (01:25:05):
I mean I've quit doing it all together because,
like their references are likethe last six months, right,
right, right.
This is like when Bill Clinton.
They're like who is BillClinton, who?

Speaker 3 (01:25:19):
All we know about is a blue dress and a cigar.
We don't need to know the guy'sname.
Hey, I noticed we've thrownaround YTT a lot, so for anybody
who was confused and you didn'tfigure it out, that just means
yoga teacher training.

Speaker 2 (01:25:35):
Yeah, Josh is in our 200 hour yoga teacher training
program.

Speaker 3 (01:25:39):
Not to be confused with PYT.
The other thing I want to hearit, I want to hear it, I want to
hear it PYT.
You know there was a where didI just see some sort of Michael
Jackson tribute or something andI thought I wonder how that's
going Like.

(01:26:00):
Are we supposed to avoidMichael Jackson music because
of-.

Speaker 2 (01:26:05):
There's actually a really good podcast about that.
Oh really, the rise and fall ofMichael Jackson, or like why,
how did they frame it?
Like why some people just kindof still worship him and
overlook everything else?

Speaker 3 (01:26:23):
Right, which we do with art I mean Roman Polanski,
anyone Like.
There's a lot that we overlook.

Speaker 1 (01:26:32):
For John Watson.

Speaker 3 (01:26:34):
And yeah, and like you don't want the art to
disappear, you don't want thehistory to disappear.
That too is a walk Like,without paying the person,
continually giving them moreaccolades.
But you also can't likewhitewash and make disappear
things.

Speaker 2 (01:26:51):
I think it's called think twice so what are you done
with these?

Speaker 1 (01:26:57):
Okay, thanks.

Speaker 2 (01:26:58):
Hi guys.

Speaker 1 (01:26:59):
Hi guys, what's up?
Eli, so you know.
Look, I was seven when Thrillercame out.
I had a glove, I had the jacket, I had the penny loafers, the
white socks, michael Jacksonwas-.

Speaker 3 (01:27:18):
If you could find a picture of that, we'd love to
share it with the podcast Gosh.

Speaker 1 (01:27:23):
We'd have to talk to my mother.

Speaker 2 (01:27:25):
We need that picture.

Speaker 1 (01:27:29):
Well, and I think that like there's one running
picture.
There is some pain connected tothat because it does sort of
change the experience.
But the way that I kind ofthink about it is like I don't
really go around promotingMichael Jackson.
My kids came up to me and said,like I'd like to be Michael
Jackson for Halloween.
We might have a differentconversation, but why that we

(01:27:50):
might want to do that, However-.

Speaker 3 (01:27:53):
I'm not sure, if we're sure to talk about it.

Speaker 1 (01:27:54):
I mean, michael Jackson is a fallible human
being, like all of us.
His things are just differentthan most of ours.
And you know, I mean it'spretty clear to me that he was
utterly tortured as a child,utterly sexualized, as a child,
utterly controlled.
You know, I mean in a lot ofways right.

(01:28:16):
I mean he was sick And-.

Speaker 2 (01:28:19):
This was everything that we just talked about.
Right Like following money-.

Speaker 1 (01:28:24):
The economic structures.

Speaker 2 (01:28:26):
Yeah, the economic structures.

Speaker 1 (01:28:27):
When you become the economic structures, you become
a monster because you have noregulating or restraining
capability.
And like, what's the differencebetween 150 and $200,000 house
or $400,000 house?
Like more is bigger or more isbetter, like and it's just, it's
a the reason why we can go tothe Dominican on what they pay

(01:28:47):
college professors and sort ofadministrators is because we
just don't buy a lot of stuff.
Right, we're really intentionalwith how we spend our money.
And again, that's Yastna'sexperience of like having to
walk out of her house with herpapers and no money and then
having to rely on Catholiccharities and having to rely on

(01:29:08):
the goodness of other people and, you know, allowing it.
Like learning how to be sort ofokay with being vulnerable,
receiving help and these sortsof things, but then also like
when your situation changesright, like being mindful that
those people are out there andneed your help and right, and I
mean, at the end of the day,like you know, we just we don't

(01:29:32):
really need all that much.

Speaker 3 (01:29:35):
We really don't, and that's why it's for us Americans
it's become like a coolexperience to downsize or to get
rid of stuff, like what aluxury is that, I think.
I'll get rid of all my stuff.

Speaker 1 (01:29:50):
And then the burdens, like get left away, right, but
all those things and all thatstuff that we're throwing away
at one time we desperatelywanted which, you know, just
kind of tracks, that sort oflike the gooners or whatever,
like the three differentenergies.

Speaker 3 (01:30:06):
Funny little meme where I get all my wisdom.
I always say from Facebookmemes, but it's about in my
purse there's a thousand littlereceipts that if I bind them
together forms a book about whyI'm broke Well.

Speaker 1 (01:30:22):
I just I think it's better just to kind of, you know
, live a little bit more austere, what do you know?
But Mary Beth needs anotherjournal.

Speaker 2 (01:30:31):
Yeah, I just have a lot of notebooks, but didn't
COVID help with that though.

Speaker 3 (01:30:35):
For some of us anyway , if not just with possessions
and shopping, but living back,like you said, the campfire.
I mean that's when we actuallybuilt a fire pit.

Speaker 2 (01:30:45):
And.

Speaker 3 (01:30:45):
Jeff calls it COVID Mary because I was like actually
baking things and I don't bake,I cook, but I was making, there
was like creme brulee and hewas like what happened to COVID
Mary?

Speaker 2 (01:31:00):
I for the first time during COVID, during quarantine,
realized that my home was justa place that we checked in at,
but we didn't really live.
And our situation then was we.
I mean we own a small business,so we were very, very worried

(01:31:23):
about the future and had no ideawhat was going to happen and
ended up doing a ton of teachertraining, which saved us.
And so we, even though we werehome all day, every day
sometimes we were starting ateight in the morning and ending
at eight at night, so we didn'thave the luxury of living in the
house, we didn't have theluxury of having the time to

(01:31:47):
like, do the home upgrades andall the projects that everybody
else did, and I actually gotjealous for the first time in my
life, like no, I want that timeto spend making this place that
I'm really recognizing as myhome better.
And you know, and at the sametime, Ashley was pregnant and we
moved her home and my dad wentinto the hospital and died later

(01:32:08):
.
It was like 2020 was just acrazy time, and I still see it
in my house because, as you guysboth know, we just don't have a
lot of time period and I don'tknow.
It's just.
It changed my perspective on myhome and where I live, and I'm

(01:32:29):
not just leaving to come back into have a place to sleep.
You know Something a little bitdifferent.

Speaker 1 (01:32:38):
You know.
So you know we grew up in acountry, right, that is based on
sort of displacements.
Right One are your, ourancestors being displaced from
Europe?
Because, let's face it, nobodyin 1700 Germany is like let's
get on a boat to the other sideof the world.
I think there's going to begood living over there.
It's like things are so badthat like they don't right.

(01:33:01):
And then, and like in my case,like 10th or 11th generation,
everybody's lived in sort ofPennsylvania, like nine
generations have lived within 15miles of each other.
And like here I am at sort of atthis moment of sort of economic
change in America the 80s, 90sand 2000s and like I'm flung

(01:33:22):
over to Egypt, I'm askingquestions, I'm trying to figure
stuff out and like in theprocess, like I'm living in
Cairo, I'm living in Damascus,I'm living in St Andrews in
Scotland where I got my PhD, I'mliving in Syracuse on a one
year gig, I'm interviewing atsort of jobs all over the
country, and like the thing thatlike becomes clear to me is
like the reason I need to begrounded is because I have no

(01:33:45):
grounding, like I can't reallygo back to Western Pennsylvania
because there's like way toomuch stuff there and I don't
really know if I can make aliving there, but like I'm cut
off from all those networks ofgenerations of people.
Like the reason why I was prettyanti-racist from the jump is
because my parents lived in thesame small town.
They went to high school withthe black kids parents.

(01:34:07):
I went to black with their kidsand like we knew each other,
like we were in each other'slives in meaningful ways and so
like the idea of like racismwhen I got to college was
hilarious because I just didn'tthink it was like an actual
thing.
And so for me, like groundingand like taking the spaces that

(01:34:31):
we live in and making them sortof the home, like it requires
work.
You got to put a sacred spacein you, I mean.
And the way I used to live onplanes I think I've been on two
or three planes since thepandemic and I just I don't care
, like I want to be home andthis is home Cause this is where
the most important people are.

Speaker 3 (01:34:52):
I'm holding up this book that I bought.
I was listening to a podcastHonestly, it might have been
Jesus calling podcasts, but thisCarly Summers was on it and she
was had been an addict and asexual abuse survivor and
everything, but she's now aninterior designer and so I got
this book to be a coffee tablebook for my eventual place in

(01:35:13):
the mountains, because they'restories of how to create, even
if it's just a corner of a roomfor yourself or something, and
this can tie back to yoga andmeditation as well, to to have
some sacred spaces inside andoutside that have nothing to do
with a lot of stuff.
It's just funny.
You said the word sacred spacesin my Amazon box.

(01:35:35):
Got it at Amazon.

Speaker 2 (01:35:38):
I'm looking at it.
I'm looking at it in Amazonright now.
I'm like, oh, I need this.

Speaker 1 (01:35:43):
Yeah, I mean, I think cause, like you think about it
right, home is where we sleepand recuperate.
Home is where we should beeating more than often than not.
Home is that we're nourishingourselves there.
Home is where we spend timewith the people we really,
really love and that, when allthe rest of this stuff falls
apart, like those are the peoplewe want in the room.

Speaker 3 (01:36:04):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:36:05):
Right and like it's like in your face all the time
and like we're constantly likerunning away from home and
changing jobs or moving places,like you know.
I mean I like living here.
I don't really know myneighbors.
Same here 10 years, wow, I mean, and I know I'm enough by name,

(01:36:29):
but I've not eaten in theirhouse.

Speaker 2 (01:36:33):
Do people do that anymore?

Speaker 1 (01:36:35):
I don't think so.

Speaker 3 (01:36:35):
Right?
Well, it's funny.
I live in the house.
I grew up in the other side andmy parents and the neighbors
lived next door to each otherfor 50 years before my neighbor
who's my age.
Once her dad passed away, theybuilt a house and took their mom
with them and they were like,oh, I'm going to be a good guy,

(01:36:56):
I'm going to be a good guy, I'mgoing to be a good guy.
But that was 10 years ago andto your point.
I know the people who moved in.
I know the guy's name is Tim.
I never see the wife or kids.
I see him cut in the grass wewave.

Speaker 1 (01:37:11):
He would bring in the trash can for my mom if I was
out of town or something, but um, not not like in the old days
when we were just all runningthe hood together and we were
like, oh, I don't know, I don'tknow, and I'm like I don't know,
I don't know, I don't know, Idon't know, I don't know, I
don't know, I don't know, Idon't know.

Speaker 3 (01:37:34):
But they want to have relationships, they want to
have community, they want tofeel validated, they want to
feel like, whatever theirexperience is Right.
Um, and often our community orrelationship with our neighbor
is about like get off my lawn oryour mailbox isn't compliant,
these cannot use theseinstructions.

Speaker 1 (01:37:52):
Um so sometimes they might not have taken any
opportunity to get a massagetoday.
So some of these seed orwhatever it, it can be pure
entertainment.
Yeah, no-transcript.
Are you this mean?
Is that how ridiculous?

Speaker 2 (01:38:08):
You have two little boys.
You're not supposed to ask that.
I'm like.

Speaker 1 (01:38:12):
I'm like trying to tell them, like you understand,
that even though they don't paythe mortgage, they are full on
residents of this street, likeyou are.
I don't look at you and say, oh, you're 70.
Like you're off the list now.

Speaker 3 (01:38:24):
Right, you don't.
You can't cut your own grass,so you're not.

Speaker 1 (01:38:27):
I mean so like and like.
I don't want to live in thatworld where I'm like having to
kind of go to battle with peopleover this stupid stuff.
I just try to kind of keepliving in a way that makes them
understand, usually publicly,like not public shaming, but
like when they see it actuallyhappen and they their eyes click

(01:38:49):
like, oh, it really doesn'tmatter if there's a basketball
here.

Speaker 2 (01:38:53):
I'm not interventing the sale of a home around you
because there's a basketballhoop in your yard.
What is the argument?
That there's a basketball hoopin the association somewhere?

Speaker 1 (01:39:02):
that that yeah no, no , no that there's a that all the
land is common ground andtherefore the basketball hoop is
sitting on top of land thateverybody owns but, like, not
everybody has access to it.
There's an argument made ofpeople that moved here in the
1990s, that really don't wantthings to change and have not

(01:39:24):
come to terms with the fact that, like, not only are things
changing, but like there is likeeternal turnover happening on a
frequent basis.

Speaker 3 (01:39:35):
Right, yeah, and it's worth saying publicly or
allowed to them, because yourlife is not going to change
because of this basketball hooplady.

Speaker 2 (01:39:46):
If you've got energy to spend.
This is not.
You can do something else withit.

Speaker 1 (01:39:52):
Well, and I mean it's just like you know.
I mean they're just kids, right, they're doing their thing, and
and like I mean they're beingsocialized to understand, like
old people are mean, yep, andand like so it starts right.

Speaker 2 (01:40:05):
And this is who I get you know at 18 and can state
yeah, so what do we do with allof this, josh, like it's hard to
take this path of this is Josh.

Speaker 3 (01:40:19):
We're just the podcast people.
I think it's our.

Speaker 2 (01:40:22):
Well, it's my problem to kidding.

Speaker 3 (01:40:24):
I know.

Speaker 2 (01:40:25):
I mean you go sit in your mat, your home in the
mountains, and you contemplateit over your whatever gets done
Now, that's, that's away fromthe trappings of modern life.

Speaker 3 (01:40:36):
you know other than the trappings of modern life.
I just have to drive 40 minutesto get him.
You'll be back soon enough.

Speaker 2 (01:40:44):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:40:45):
No, what do we do?
I mean, look, I, I, I I'vethought about this over like
2025 years.
I've looked at it fromdifferent social science sort of
theories, marxism, nihilism.
I don't think the theoriesreally sort of do it.

(01:41:07):
What I, where I'm at in mycurrent life, is I sort of
understand that we are facingenormously challenging obstacles
that are coming in very violentways, that are going to
destabilize how we live, and Ithink that I see my practices

(01:41:29):
whether it's meditation, aheater code, exposure, yoga that
these are just like my way ofpreparing for that sort of
inevitable change.
And in my body, the breath ishow I embody change.
So, like, if I want to bechange, which is really the only
thing happening in the universe, then I have to be on my breath

(01:41:50):
.
And, you know, I think that themore one personally transforms
and invest in themselves andthese sorts of things, like
people are watching, they'realways watching and, like you
know, I love having differentpeople come through the doors
with their different journeysand like figuring out where they

(01:42:12):
need to be and how they need toget there, because, I think it
does really ripple and like it'sdisruptive to live this way.
Like my students, after theyleave my class, the chemistry
professor can no longer tellthem they don't matter Because
that line is not going to workanymore.

Speaker 3 (01:42:31):
The very next class there.
That's not going to work.
They don't believe it, let'stalk about the chemistry
professor.

Speaker 2 (01:42:38):
Why is he in that space and saying it?
Do you know what I mean?
Like and this is like I wasthinking when you were talking
about racism.
My dad served on the frontlines in Vietnam with black
people Not in the majority butmy dad was racist and would joke

(01:42:58):
about it.
But then would get mad if mybrothers or I would get say,
like dad, that's so racist.

Speaker 3 (01:43:05):
And he'd be like well , you know, I'm just kidding, I
was going to say was your dadracist or did your dad continue
some racist speech and talk thathe grew up with?
Was your dad racist?

Speaker 2 (01:43:17):
I don't see, but I don't know.
I'm saying like the dad thatwas presented to me seemed to be
racist, but like he had his ownexperiences in the society that
he lived in and it produced himthe same way that my dad
probably wouldn't care about abasketball hoop, but somebody in
his generation and yourdevelopment mind, well, you know

(01:43:40):
like and so yeah, it's like.

Speaker 1 (01:43:45):
I mean the other thing is that racism is really a
symptom of feeling disconnectedor separate, right, right, and
so, like you know, I think thatAmerica needs a space where we
can collectively care for eachother and collectively heal.

Speaker 2 (01:44:00):
And what if you don't think that?
So what if?
If you said that to my dad, hewould 100% disagree with you?
That you know what I mean?
Like I'm not looking to beconnected or I don't.
You know what I mean.
Like you have to be in acertain space to even be open to

(01:44:21):
these ideas and I and that'swhat part of what we're
struggling with in society isthat again?

Speaker 1 (01:44:29):
this economy.

Speaker 2 (01:44:30):
the money teaches you to be closed minded.
You don't need any help, youdon't.
You don't need another idea,you've got.
You've got it all down, you'vegot the good job You've.
You're making the money, andanything that gets in the way of
that or doesn't agree with thatis Not worth the the.
You know the words in theconversation.

Speaker 1 (01:44:51):
Absolutely.
You know, I don't know how webring people here and I don't
know that it's our job to bringthem here.
They have to bring themselves.
And I see myself as justoffering away, if one is
interested, to kind of steppingonto the path Right and then

(01:45:12):
doing I mean and I've watched mystudents do this I have one
student that does nothing butorigami when I lecture and I'm
like please don't be offended.
Like this is how I calm myselfand this is how I hear you.

Speaker 3 (01:45:27):
Yeah, like somebody's biting their nails.
That's no different than thatorigami.

Speaker 1 (01:45:30):
Absolutely right.
And so like I mean like andlike I have another student that
like draws on their iPad why Ilecture, but it's like the same.
So like the way that they takethings over and own them and
like really use contemplation inways that fit them Right.

(01:45:51):
I think that that they're onthe path right.
Like I don't know.
One time, one time last year,like my class was super agitated
, like they were stressed it wasmuch of a midterm or something
and so we rented a I have to payto rent space, I can't stay.
So my students were in thestudent organization and they

(01:46:15):
could get the room for free.
So we rented a room in thestudent center and then they
came with towels and yoga matsor whatever and I did like a 35
minute yoga need you're outrecording for them and they all
laid on the ground and just likechilled, and then we talked
about it for about 20 minutesand I let them go and like I

(01:46:38):
mean those were the moments thatthat class like really tied
together and like when theyreally started making knowledge
together, which was amazing.

Speaker 3 (01:46:48):
And the origami or anything somebody might be doing
that another professor wouldsee as a distraction, even if it
is something that they shouldlet go of.
Maybe at first it's a defensemechanism, letting them, you
know, for classes in be like I'mjust going to let this go on
the down low, I don't need.
I don't need to do this anymore, giving them the power instead

(01:47:11):
of you, put your phone away,your iPad away during my class.

Speaker 1 (01:47:19):
And that's what I really like about it, and I
think it's a really good thing.

Speaker 2 (01:47:26):
I know that's what I like about it, and I think it's
a good thing.

Speaker 3 (01:47:31):
Which, again, is like it teaches them like, their
kids, like.

Speaker 2 (01:47:34):
I mean that's what I read around chasing my kids
about like, stop playing in theclassroom, sort of a time out.
You know what I mean becausethey're, they're, they're very
young and like, but and alsoprobably every other classroom
is teaching them that the stressis, this is just how things are

(01:47:56):
right.
But you're, you're actuallylike, think, think about anybody
at work, like, if you're justthat high, strong in a day, like
you need to take a break,whether that's yoga need or a
walk or just a few minutes to,you know, decompress somehow

(01:48:17):
somewhere.
I didn't learn that college,nobody ever.

Speaker 1 (01:48:23):
Right and, and I modeled the behavior right like
I come in on Mondays and I saidoh man, yesterday I was really
over running.
You know what I did?
I laid all my yoga mat for 35minutes and just like completely
vegged out and I woke up and Ifelt like I came back and I felt
like my battery had beenrecharged and I was a new human
being.
It was really an amazingexperience.

(01:48:44):
Okay, let's move on to classstuff.
Right and like you just likedumping, like, and somebody
sitting there like plantingseeds and, and I mean the the
how this all started in myclassroom is I, would I?
Just one semester was like I'mstarting this class with a
meditation.
Gentlemen, One second gentlemen, their video recording this I'm

(01:49:06):
going to meeting.
Please, please, Don't worryabout that.

Speaker 3 (01:49:10):
I'm going to get it over.
Also, josh has earphones onlike a headset, so he looks even
more professional than our twomicrophones.

Speaker 2 (01:49:17):
What I said when you first, when you were on the
other link, was like oh, you areready for this?

Speaker 1 (01:49:23):
Well, I mean and like , so you know it.
Just we, I model it for him.
So the first semester, when Ithought I was ready, we started
the class with the two minutemeditation and then we were like
super awkward, or three classeswere like super awkward oh then
, like I had like like the dudein the back with like the
skateboard, and he like come upand he said, yo, are we going to

(01:49:47):
meditate again?
I was like here we go, sure.
And then I was getting likearmy vets would come up and tell
me this I was getting otherpeople right and so we
eventually moved it to threeminutes and so my ball of my
classes start with a threeminute meditation and it's

(01:50:11):
unguided, it's just sitting insilence and we kind of that's
the sort of unifying practiceand then I give them this tree
of contemplative practices thatI sent you in the chat and then,
like, because like there's thelimitations of me, like I get
drawn to yoga and meditationbecause I'm not an artist but I
have students that aretremendous artists, right, and

(01:50:35):
so you know, I just find it.
I like the role I get to play,which is basically being a
person that they can be safearound, being an adult.

Speaker 3 (01:50:45):
That's a great way to say it, the role you get to
play, and we'll post that, thatpractice tree.
Yeah, sure, with the, with thepodcast I was.
You know what you're saying.
The things you're doing are sotiny.
You were saying your firstconscious breath was at 40,
whatever.

(01:51:06):
I remember not realizing untilmy 40s.
The most wonderful practicethat I do every day is to be out
in the world and look somebodyin the eye and smile at them.

Speaker 2 (01:51:18):
Absolutely.

Speaker 3 (01:51:20):
A homeless guy, the person in traffic, smoking,
texting and, you know, flippingyou off at the same time.
It's so disarming to people forone, and you get so much out of
it as well.
Just nothing, you don't have tosay hello, just just that like

(01:51:40):
human contact.
I see you, you're, you matter.
You're not just a person in thecorner that I'm, you know,
you're not a piece of lint on myshirt and it's it just changed
everything, just like yourmeditation to three minutes.
In your class.
There's lots of different toolsand you know.

Speaker 1 (01:52:02):
You know you're not just a person in a classroom
it's such a seems like such asmall thing and it's a huge wave
of change.
Visualization one time to.
They love visualization becausethey can go into their
grandma's home and have thecookies and smell the fire and
like I mean they love that one.
And and you know, the morecomfortable they get with
themselves, the more they starttalking to each other and then

(01:52:22):
that's it, right?

Speaker 3 (01:52:22):
I mean now, I want a cookie.

Speaker 2 (01:52:27):
I'm just going to go to yoga and to the community of
yoga, right like Carla a coupleweeks ago when, when we were in
teacher training, was saying Idid.
I guess I didn't realize orunderstand how much I craved
community until I was in thiscommunity and it's a safe space

(01:52:50):
and they're, you know, and bookclub is a safe space, you know,
like it's.
It's the things that happenboth in the studio and outside
of the studio that they're justso organically good that it just
leads to to more good things.

Speaker 1 (01:53:07):
Absolutely right and, and you know, I mean I think
sharing a meal with people,right, is incredible, right?
You know, Lauren Roberts and Iwent and had Egyptian food at
the Egyptian restaurant in inBrexville and I mean, I got to
kind of take her on a tour ofEgyptian food and we talked and
we talked about yoga andteaching and like it was

(01:53:30):
unstructured, it was just, youknow, right, and I think more
than that needs to happen.
When people eat together, right, they understand they're on the
same team, right?
And I think I don't know, Idon't know really how big change
is going to happen.
All I know is that there aretheories and strategies out
there that people can live andwrite relationship to change,

(01:53:53):
and I try to practice that stuff.
And, and so you know my teaching, my life, it's all about making
more possibilities.
It's all about it's nonhierarchical and decentralized,
it's it's iterative, so we goback and forth.
You know we can do self studyon what we think we know, go

(01:54:16):
back and change our minds.
And one of the ideas behindthat theory is that all life is
fractal, so like, if you want tolive a good life, you've got to
be doing the small things atthe highest level and if you
take care of those small thingsit will sort of reverberate out

(01:54:37):
into the universe.

Speaker 3 (01:54:40):
It's so simple.
I mean we've we've made thingsso complicated.
It is those simple things thatchange everything and the rest
doesn't even matter, but it willreverberate out to those.

Speaker 1 (01:54:51):
You know, it's crazy.
Like one time was this summer Idon't know what the situation
was and I was like thirsty and Iwalked over to the the
refrigerator and I put ice in aglass and I opened up the faucet
and put water in and then justlike, drank the water and was
like this can't get easier, likeand we don't.

(01:55:15):
I mean like this is so easy,right.
And like people don't eventhink about whether the water is
clean or not, they justanticipate like it will always
work, it's always going to bethis way, and like it's in these
immense moments of gratitude,right.

Speaker 3 (01:55:33):
And that's a great practice to like being truly
grateful for the little thingslike that, of which, if you pay
attention, there's about 10,000of them per day, right?
Like Joyce, I think this allthe time.
You know, my car is so old now,but you and I love to drive our
stick shift.
I love to be able to say I'mdriving the car I want to drive.
She might be almost 10 yearsold now, but I'm, I'm so lucky

(01:55:54):
to be able to enjoy driving.
Yeah, you know, I mean, ifyou're lucky enough to drive at
all or have some old rust bucket, forget about having a car that
you want, right.

Speaker 1 (01:56:06):
So one of the things that I learned from, like
disability studies.
So these are people that study,like you know, people that lose
.
They basically make theargument that every single human
we need is either disabled oron the path to becoming unable.
Right, so their hearing will go, their mobility will go.

(01:56:28):
This will like, at some pointyou have got to be prepared that
you may not be able to move andrather than than sort of wait
until that moment comes to kindof have to acknowledge all of
that stuff in the moment, right.
If one understands that likewe're on a sort of slow path

(01:56:48):
here, that we're not gettingback Right, one becomes more
open to the idea of being moremobility challenged.

Speaker 3 (01:56:57):
Right, how do these doors open for me to get in here
, just because I'm not?

Speaker 1 (01:57:01):
right now, at this present moment, does not
indicate what I'm going to looklike tomorrow.

Speaker 2 (01:57:07):
Right.

Speaker 1 (01:57:08):
I mean so.
I mean, like you know, and Imean these are really big,
complex, academic discussionsand I'm like basically pulling
out like the threads.
Like you know, disabled studiessay we're all disabled.
Black feminism says if we'refree, everybody's free, because
it's bottom up.
I mean these are like theextreme cliff notes of like 25
years of reading this stuff.

Speaker 3 (01:57:27):
But that's what's palatable.
Some of us just need a cliffnotes quit.
Some of us are not going to dothat deep dive.

Speaker 1 (01:57:34):
Right, and this is this is the role I play in
society.

Speaker 3 (01:57:37):
But mind blown, because you're, that is a true
statement.
Everybody is either disabled oron their way to being not able.
Yeah, amen.
And now you're going to have tonotice what you can't hear,
what you can't lift, what youcan't walk to or drive to.

Speaker 1 (01:57:57):
And like this is a society completely built on
mobility.
So if you lose your ability tobe mobile, you are essentially
more isolated, right, or moreseparated from sort of community
.
Then then you get me.
You're just like one step abovefrom living in a prison,
absolutely Right, and, and Imean you know, I mean we have

(01:58:22):
people on the street that, likethe pandemic started, I still
haven't seen them, like they'restill just in their house, like
looking out the window and likeit's a tremendously sort of
traumatic and damaging way tolive.

Speaker 2 (01:58:37):
I actually had a lady call me a couple of months ago
it definitely was either May orJune and she said I haven't been
back since before the pandemic,which we still do have some
people who haven't been back.
She had bought a pretty big Ithink she bought a 50 class pass

(01:58:58):
and so she has a lot of classesleft.
And she said I am just nowstarting to come out of my house
and I was wondering what kindof preventative measures you're
taking because of COVID, wow.
And I was like I didn't saythis out loud but I was like, oh

(01:59:18):
my God, you're giving me PTSD.
I'm like we have a very cleanstudio, but we are not
sanitizing walls after everyclass anymore.
We're not separating people,we're not separating people.
We're not spraying things downevery five minutes.

Speaker 1 (01:59:34):
None of that stuff was working anyway.

Speaker 2 (01:59:36):
Right, we're not keeping doors open.
She's like are you limitingcertain classes and how close
are you allowing people to be toeach other?
I'm like that was three yearsago, that was two years ago,
that was not last year, and likeare you living in such?
I mean, I felt bad for herbecause it's like she's living

(01:59:59):
in such a poor way, but now it'son her, not on the businesses
Well, and?
but she has, I think, anautoimmune disease or situation,
so she's at a higher risk.
But what's the where's thebalance here?
Like you're not living, that'sright.
You can't be if you don't, ifyou, if you're zooming, every

(02:00:22):
day there's Just a risktolerance.

Speaker 3 (02:00:24):
You can't.

Speaker 2 (02:00:26):
You can't really touch or feel, or you know
there's some energy lost in zoomand there's some you know what
I mean Like you just can'tvirtually.

Speaker 3 (02:00:34):
It's like that old, old again, probably older than
the two of you movie the boy inthe plastic bubble.
At some point it is or there'sprobably a more recent movie
that's the same thing.
At some point it's moreenticing to risk death than to
not have human connection.

Speaker 1 (02:00:53):
Well, and the thing about it is is that you know,
these people are like stuck inthere, no way you've been.
You've been seen bro.
He said okay.
So I think that on somerespects right.
These people are so isolatedlike they can't feel anything
right.
They've become sort ofparalyzed by fear and the longer

(02:01:17):
this has gone on, the lessfearful I am and I don't do big
crowds anymore, I don't do a lotof airplanes anymore, I just my
risk factors are already prettylow anyway and I just don't
test them by making reallyreckless decisions for a
temporary experience.

Speaker 3 (02:01:37):
It's just a more mindful life now.
It's just a more mindful lifein general, yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:01:42):
But like, do I need to be around?
Like you can't live asconnected to yourself as I'm
trying to live, and then notwanna have community right?
I mean I mean like this is theother thing, like when we're
talking about, like me teachingand Brexville and these, like
the idea that I could teach yogato my neighbors, like this is

(02:02:03):
like sacred right, like this ishow people are gonna interface
with me in my community, right,I mean it's just, I mean it's a
beautiful way to kind of be outin my community, right.
I can't wait.

Speaker 2 (02:02:21):
I mean, you have, you know, you have what I think we
were talking about thisyesterday, like 30 hours left.
Oh my God, yeah, and some other.

Speaker 3 (02:02:28):
Maybe this guy with his history will get the the old
book report done.
That's usually everybody's.
I'm in process.
Mass barrier Like.

Speaker 2 (02:02:36):
I'm in process, he's just gonna hand me his book.

Speaker 3 (02:02:38):
So many people are done with teacher training, but
they can't get the certificatebecause they just balk at that
last thing.
But that should be easy peasyfor you.

Speaker 1 (02:02:46):
Now for me.
I've left all the anatomy tothe end.
The book report I'm writingwith ease.

Speaker 2 (02:02:50):
Yeah Well, I was telling him, like a lot of yoga
teachers find anatomy the leastinteresting part of teacher
training and teaching yoga it's.
It's so you need your body, butit's so not about like maybe
about the names of the things orthe yes.

Speaker 1 (02:03:07):
I mean, to this day I don't really consider like yoga
like a workout, like whensomebody's like, do you work out
?
I don't, I usually say notreally, cause I don't go to a
gym and I don't really run likeI used to run and I don't lift
weights, you know, and so Idon't do those things.
But I'm at a yoga studio fiveto seven times a week and I mean

(02:03:32):
to me, that's what I need toregulate, that's what I need for
me, and anything that happensbodily transformation or
whatever that's just a sideeffect of like the goodness I
need right.

Speaker 2 (02:03:47):
Yeah, thank you for that.
That's a really great way ofsaying it.
That.
That's another one that's hardto articulate when, if somebody
calls or they have alreadydecided that you know this is a
workout, or what class should Itake to lose weight, or do you
lose weight from using or from?

Speaker 3 (02:04:06):
how many calories does this burn?
How?

Speaker 2 (02:04:08):
many calories does this burn?
And then everybody's alwayssurprised when I'm like you know
, even some regular studentswill say I don't really burn a
lot of calories in power yoga,yet I feel like I'm working so
hard.
I'm like it's because you arebreathing correctly and when
your breath slows down you burnless calories.

(02:04:29):
So there's that your bloodpressure goes down.

Speaker 3 (02:04:33):
Imagine the machine you're honing if you're teaching
it to use less energy to dothat much work.

Speaker 2 (02:04:40):
Yes, that's pretty amazing.
So I know that Mary Beth has aclass to teach soon and this
particular class likes to showup about 30, 30 minutes early 30
minutes early and Josh, youhave given us.
You have given us over twohours now, so I really
appreciate that.

(02:05:00):
It looks like your kids are.
They need your attention.

Speaker 1 (02:05:06):
One of them is going to basketball here shortly.
So, that'll lighten things upand I don't know what the other
one's doing.
He's doing some sort of yogapose.
It's not yoga.

Speaker 2 (02:05:15):
A couple of weeks ago in teacher training, josh was
like, oh, I got a text that oneof my kids like face planted at
basketball and he was like, yeah, but did you die yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:05:31):
Well, you know, one of the most beautiful things
that has come from my journey islike I got to teach Eli's nine
year baseball team mindfulnessand I teach Eli and know both my
kids.
We meditate together.
They're constantly seeing mesort of in yoga poses.
I remind them like when they'rein the bus, like pretty much

(02:05:54):
our last conversation is allright.
Well, you guys have a good dayat school, you know where I'm
going and they all go yoga, so Ijust like drill it in there in
the hopes that you know whenthey have a future problem, it's
on the available menu ofoptions to potentially solve, as
opposed to the very limitedoptions that I sort of whereas

(02:06:16):
given, developed or had when Ihad to come about those things.

Speaker 2 (02:06:22):
I wish the same for your children and everybody
else's children as well.

Speaker 1 (02:06:27):
Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (02:06:28):
So thank you again, and we will have you back in the
future, right, mary Beth?
That's Mary Beth.

Speaker 3 (02:06:35):
Yes, this was really so interesting.
For me it's been a long timesince.
This has just been reallyinteresting.
I really appreciate that I loveto chat more.

Speaker 1 (02:06:45):
Yeah, sure, absolutely.

Speaker 2 (02:06:47):
So if you've made it this far in our podcast, feel
free to rate, review, follow,subscribe, tell your friends,
share it wherever you can andcome back and listen to the next
one, and go back and listen tothe previous ones All of them.

Speaker 3 (02:07:05):
All right, we're done .

Speaker 1 (02:07:07):
Thank you, John, Thank you all.
I really appreciate it oh shedisappeared.

Speaker 3 (02:07:12):
You disappeared before you are Come back Noa.

Speaker 1 (02:07:15):
look, people are seeing you now in your underwear
.

Speaker 2 (02:07:18):
No.

Speaker 3 (02:07:21):
Well, Noa, I'm not going to show you me in my
underwear.

Speaker 2 (02:07:25):
Leave it at that.
I'm trying to.
I hope we're still recording,mm hmm, yeah, I didn't say,
recording stopped.

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Exploring the Healing Power of Yoga and Mindfulness with Josh Stacher

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