June 30, 2025 • 30 mins
🎙️ Episode 16: Joy
“I want you to know joy, so together we will practice gratitude. I want you to feel joy, so together we will learn how to be vulnerable.” — Brené Brown, Wholehearted Parenting Manifesto
This week, we’re talking about joy—what it feels like, why it can be hard to stay with, and how we’re learning to welcome more of it into our family life.
We explore the kind of joy that sneaks up on you, the kind that’s layered with memory and meaning, and the kind that feels almost too good to fully let in. We also dig into foreboding joy (thank you, Brené), and how practicing vulnerability and gratitude helps us stay present through it.
We reflect on how joy changes when you become a parent, how to reclaim personal sources of joy, and how to make room for your kids’ joy—even when it’s loud, messy, or inconvenient. And we talk about the kinds of shared moments that bring us together as a family: the silly, the spontaneous, and the deeply connected.
đź’ˇ Episode Highlights
- Joy vs. happiness—and why it matters
- “Layered joy” and how nostalgia amplifies meaning
- Foreboding joy: dress-rehearsing tragedy when things feel too good
- Reclaiming personal joy after early parenthood
- Letting kids keep their joy—even when it’s chaotic
- The role of gratitude and vulnerability in feeling joy more fully
🎧 Listen now wherever you get your podcasts.
And if this episode resonates, text it to a friend or leave a review—we’re building this together, one honest conversation at a time.
🧡 Thanks for being here with us.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to The Most Important Thing.
I'm Danielle DeMarco Neufeld. And I'm Greg Neufeld, and
together we're exploring how ambitious busy families can
build culture at home. Because after all, family is the
most important thing. Hey everybody, welcome back to
the most important thing. This is episode 16 on Joy.
Joy. Yeah, it is the 7th episode in
(00:20):
our Wholehearted Parenting Manifesto series by Brené Brown.
For those of you following alongat home.
And the line is I want you to know joy.
So together we will practice gratitude.
I want you to feel joy. So together we will learn how to
be vulnerable. Cool.
So joy is a fun topic. We've all experienced joy, but
(00:42):
it seems like joy is something that is harder to stay present
in as we become parents. Is that kind of what the
research says too? You know, I think that what
Brene is talking about here is creating space to feel joy
consistently and to developing adeliberate practice of joy, if
(01:02):
you will, and that to really tapinto joy as an adult.
Vulnerability and gratitude are our two cornerstones.
And so I think that when you become a parent, there are so
many more opportunities for joy,but also so many reasons to cut
yourself off from that joy or tobe too stressed or sleep
(01:26):
deprived or decision making fatigued to tap into those
moments. So it's really learning to
experience joy in a new way, if you will.
Yeah, I love that. And so there's a lot of self
exploration around joy to be done.
I did some reflecting on this topic myself yesterday.
(01:48):
Before we get into that, can I give the definition of joy?
I think it's important to distinguish joy from happiness.
So from Atlas of the Heart, Brene defines joy as sudden,
unexpected, short lasting, and high intensity.
Joy is characterized by a connection with God or nature or
other people. And joy doesn't make us lose
ourselves, but it makes us be more truly ourselves.
(02:11):
And so I think everybody knows that feeling of joy, but just to
put a finer point on it and to distinguish it from happiness.
So happiness is lower intensity and more self focused than joy.
With happiness, we feel a sense of being in control and it's
often related to immediate environment or current
circumstances. Yeah, I like that a lot.
(02:32):
The the gratitude that shows up for me when I am experiencing
joy these days is like there's like a boomerang or a throwback
to a lot of my childhood. I'm realizing as I watch our
kids, for example, when we were putting together the bunk beds,
I reflected on the bunk beds that my brother and I had.
(02:54):
And we were probably 5:00 and 3:00 at the time up till maybe
10 and 8. And for a while there, I would
wake up and I was in the top bunk and I would put my hand
down and then my brother, if he were awake, would touch my hand
to let me know that he was up. And that was a beautiful moment
(03:15):
that I didn't really remember until I saw those bunk beds
sitting in our girls room after they were fully complete.
And so now every time I walk in that room, I get this little
like heart flutter burst of joy just thinking about that.
And I know they're going to haveso many memories of their own as
a result of this structure. So it's just kind of cool to be
(03:38):
a parent and not just see the joy in the moments that my
children are are having together, but to remember some
of that childhood joy that I hadwith my brother.
I think there's a you had told me that there's a name for that,
which is called layered joy. Is that?
Right. Layered joy.
So layered joy being the joy that you're experiencing, that
(03:58):
I'm experiencing, and then the joy that I had experienced that
is triggered by the present day joy.
Yeah, and that's definitely something that is new since
becoming a parent, right? I think that that goes back to
one of these terms that we've heard over and over on these
episodes, which is the intergenerational self.
And so this idea of now that I am a parent, I can see my
(04:22):
childhood and my children as well.
And that that brings kind of an extra layer of meaning to some
of the things that are happeningin our home.
And so that's called layered joy.
Yeah, layered joy. Cool, I like that.
Yeah, it's playful in the present and rich with nostalgic
warmth. It shows how new joy can
reawaken old safe feelings. Safe feelings.
(04:44):
That's interesting. Yeah, I learned a lot in this
little exercise here, so I have some questions.
OK, What is something that surprised you by how much joy it
brought? The first time Maverick told a
funny joke recently that actually made our whole family
laugh, that was a moment of purejoy for me.
(05:07):
What was that? A couple weeks ago, we were all
getting ready for bed and you had a picture come up on your
phone and he looked at it and hesaid he was about 5 months old
in the photo probably. And he looked at me and he said,
Daddy, I was farting in that photo.
He. Was.
Like so good, so, so good. And our whole family burst out
(05:29):
laughing and just, you know, it felt like one of those moments
where he's not a baby anymore. He's not really a kid yet, but
he, he felt like one of the crewin that moment.
And I felt very connected to him.
And I think that Salinas can really be a connector in in a
joyful way for families, certainly for our family.
(05:50):
What about you? I realized that I get so much
joy from going to the beach, butthe like the ultimate moment,
the, the, the moment that we're walking down the beach path and
you can start to see the ocean and the sky is so blue and the
clouds are so beautiful. That's like peak joy for me.
(06:11):
I think the view is absolutely beautiful.
I also think there's something magical about all of us setting
out on a trail together, just journeying.
Right? Yeah.
So guys, when I experience joy, I really feel it.
And I really feel it to the point where I'm like tearing up
and I usually hold back. I usually don't let myself go
with those tears because there'ssomething like about letting it
(06:35):
wash over me that I feel is disarming.
And like I'll even if it's a movie or whatever, I always hold
it back. It's like a reflex for me.
And so yesterday I was filming this moment in with my new meta
Ray Bans, which I love. They bring me so much joy of of
(07:00):
Hunter and Jade singing Taylor Swift song.
It was just so darn cute. And just watching them perform
together and being sisters in pulling up to tennis, just like
so many things about it. So I caught the capture that
moment and I was playing it lastnight in bed after you fell
asleep and I started to feel that like total joy.
But those tears and and I was like, you know, screw it.
(07:21):
And I just let it wash over me and like I let it go and and
actually was like shaking a little bit in the best way.
And then I was like, I got to share this with somebody.
Who do I share this with? So I sent it to my brother and I
was like, this 62nd video was the best moment of my day.
And I sent it to him And right back like a minute later, he
(07:42):
watched it and he goes mine too.And I was like, he gets it.
And that was just totally special.
So thanks team met for helping me prepare for this episode
through some real feeling and and real joy and.
Connecting with your brother, which is so beautiful.
Yeah, he's, I knew he would understand.
Insane gratitude memory. Just like insane gratitude for
(08:05):
that one. Cool.
Can we talk a little bit about another type of joy?
Right, that's where I wanted to go.
OK, so, so on that joy, shuttingit down or or holding back tears
I think is another form of something that you and I've been
talking about, which is foreboding joy.
I think it's important topic here, especially as parents to
(08:28):
really get into what that means.Do you want to share the
definition and we can talk? About it I Renee Brown's the
first person that I heard talk about this, I believe.
I don't know if she coined the term or not, but I can say that
in her definition, foreboding joy is one of those practically
universal experiences that everybody thinks of as something
only they do. So what does it mean?
Well, it typically looks like you are.
(08:50):
I am watching my child peacefully sleep and start
thinking what if something were to happen to them?
Or laughing with us as a family and thinking this isn't going to
last. And Brene calls this act of
foreboding joy as dress rehearsing tragedy.
And she notes that it is the antidote to gratitude.
(09:12):
And I am very guilty of using these moments as an opportunity
to kind of not be vulnerable andsteel myself against future
hardship. When she says, and I know that
that doesn't work, that really the opposite is what my work is
to do, which is to lean into that joy, to fully immerse
(09:36):
myself in the present moment andto ground myself in gratitude in
that experience Because, you know, maybe it won't last, but
maybe we'll have 100 more. But regardless, when tough times
do come, me preventing myself from fully feeling joy in these
good moments isn't going to help.
(09:56):
And so I think this concept of foreboding joy is one that I may
have experienced prior to havingkids, but I, it definitely comes
up more now that I have, you know, I have so much more to
lose. When it was just me, it was just
me, you know, And now for every moment of connectedness, there's
(10:18):
also this flip side potential place that could go to a feeling
of disconnection, right? Or what if we don't have a good
relationship when they get older, right?
Like I was reading with Hunter in bed last night, which is one
of our favorite things to do. We just sit by side by side and
read our own books. And, you know, I'll massage her
arm or something while we're reading.
(10:39):
And it's the most lovely, peaceful, connected experience.
But I can't help but think sometimes in those moments,
like, what if 20 years from now,she doesn't want to talk to me,
You know? And, and I know that that's not
going to happen overnight. And I'm doing everything in my
power to make sure that doesn't happen.
(11:00):
But I think that my work to do is to really feel those moments
of deep joy and connectedness, rather than to try to prevent
myself from fully experiencing in some way of protecting myself
for the future. So if you're in a moment of joy
(11:21):
and foreboding, joy shows up. Is it a specific type of joy
that triggers it more than others?
Is it something that's related to our family?
Or is it just show up where it chooses?
Well, I think that for me currently, foreboding joy really
shows up when I'm feeling connected to the joy of one of
our children, which also helps me in thinking about this, what
(11:46):
I want to experiment with and how I would like to, how I would
like to transition. I'd like to take some of my joy
back, honestly. Like, I think that I talk about
you and I talk about this a lot,but I had such a fully developed
self when we met. I think that's probably part of
what attracted you to me, right?I was 28 years old, almost 29
(12:07):
years old. I had I had my career, I had my
friends, I had my spiritual relationship, my ways of
accessing joy, which primarily consisted of dancing at clubs,
Wednesday Warriors, you're stillout there.
And then we met, we fell in love, we got married, we had
children. COVID happened.
(12:27):
Like I picked my head up and it's been, you know, it's been 9
years. And during that time I really
collapsed my individual sense ofself, right?
And I'm just now trying to integrate the two, if you will.
So if you can think about like the first chapter of my life
being about personal deep joy, which really was that
(12:50):
connectedness to my higher powerinto the universe where I
strongly felt that on the dance floor and maybe in a Soul Cycle
class, moving my body in the dark room to the music.
There's a consistent theme here of music.
And then more recently, the joy has been around our children and
watching them or connecting withthem.
(13:10):
I'd like to bring more of that individual connection with
nature and higher power joy backinto my life.
And that one feels more sustainable too, because it
doesn't involve another human being.
So on the one hand, I'd like to move through foreboding joy for
sure, and like, deeply use thoseas opportunities to stay steeped
(13:31):
in gratitude. On the other hand, I would just
like to look for more moments ofpersonal joy.
Yeah, you, you alluded to something that I think is really
profound, that your children areoften taking your joy away in
that moment because they're so aware of your almost like you
(13:54):
put a bubble around yourself like we all do.
We all put bubbles around ourselves in a moment of joy.
And they're like, hey mom, they're popping your bubble.
Well, yeah, it's a deeply vulnerable space, right?
To to be unabashedly joyful is avery, at least for me, for sure.
And I want, And so one thing that I would like for when we
talk about joy within our familyculture and in our family
dynamic, while I am excited to have more shared experiences of
(14:19):
joy, I am also committed to allowing individual joy to have
space in our home and in the waythat we and in the way that we
commune with one another. I am definitely guilty of trying
to, I won't say burst the bubble, but I will say like
tighten the bubble of the joy onour children.
Like sometimes their joy is justoverwhelming to me.
(14:42):
And I wish that I was spiritually awakened enough to
always recognize that and just let it, let it be.
But sometimes it's like 5:00 AM and Greg's still sleeping.
And I don't really think it's appropriate to be belting out
wicked at the top of your lungs,even if that makes you really
joyful, right? But I do think that I can, I can
(15:02):
make more space for it. I'm not saying I'm going to go
like full 100% let you always bethe brightest light in the room,
but I want to recognize when youand me and each of our family
members are experiencing some type of personal joy and
communion with spirit. Say and allow more space for
(15:26):
that because I I want that. I hate when someone comes up to
me and tells me my dance moves look weird in the kitchen.
Well, I think that there's there's the dance moves
commentary, but then there's also the it's a 10 and you're
supposed to be in the car 10 minutes ago and you're, you
know, you haven't brushed your teeth and you're dancing on the
table looking at your reflectionin the TV.
(15:48):
Like, I understand that you're getting, you know, a moment of
joy here, but this is not an appropriate time to do it.
Yeah, it's tricky. It's.
Tricky. It's tricky.
There's that, there's that kind of joy, but then there's also
like this silliness joy, which Ithink to me is a bit more
connecting. Like that's where I see when I
think about joy within our family, I think about
experiential opportunities, likeyou said, kind of all going to
(16:10):
the beach together or walking a trail together to see a new
beautiful scenic site. But then there's also just like
the end of our family meeting yesterday when we played that
silly game Watch your mouth, where you stick the dental
things in your mouth. I don't even know what you call
them. And it's just absolute
ridiculousness, right? And so that's a really, we're
all on the same page at the samefrequency being silly together.
(16:32):
And that feels like the type of joy that I think really does
bring family cohesion, at least to us.
Yes, And anything physical that is spontaneous, where we're all
in it together, that's where themagic happens.
If it's too forced, it's it's someone's going to be crying.
(16:56):
Yeah, yes, although still my favorite family meeting learning
was twerking and you being the only one that could twerk.
I think every single one of us really appreciated watching you
booty bounce. Well, I appreciated it too.
That's good. I mean, they don't get that many
opportunities to see Daddy silly.
(17:16):
Yeah, I guess I try to only be silly.
So I guess maybe I need to be less silly in order to be more,
if that makes sense. I don't know.
I think I sometimes show up justas trying to be silly in order
to get some levity out of a situation when somebody's in
(17:38):
their feelings. And that's not the same
silliness as twerking. And.
Correct. Yes, I I you do bring levity to
difficult situations, I would agree.
But I also think generally speaking, during the week you
show up pretty tight. Yeah, no, it's true.
If I may say. I'm I'm working on on that,
especially as it relates to thisproject of ours here, because I
(18:02):
noticed the connectedness of talking about really the
reparenting, if you will, and bemore connected and intentional
as a father and husband and in this family.
It's it's it all works together as a as a great fluid motion.
So you know, we're we're two months in and I and I can see
(18:24):
the the little changes in me. So I'm I'm excited about this.
I can. Too, for sure.
Yeah, I'm grateful for them. OK, so we talked about what
foreboding joy feels like and what joy feels like in your body
and in your mind. But you know, in reflecting on
the way that joy feels, I realized that I'm, I'm going to
(18:47):
call myself a joy chaser. And the reason I'm going to say
that is because it feels like a full body reverberation to me in
the best way. It's like a hum under my skin
and my eyes filled with tears. And often times I don't let
myself go over the edge there. And I think that the reason I
don't let myself go over the edge there is because it
(19:09):
actually feels pretty similar, though a lot more stable to what
I would call mania or hypomania.And as I kind of alluded to a
few episodes back, I have bipolar disorder and I've only
had a couple of hypomanic episodes and none since my
(19:34):
diagnosis. And I take care of my body
really well. I'm on medication and it's not
the mania so much that concerns me, but it is an amazing
feeling. And that is the analogy to joy.
But the reason that I chased joyis because the way that bipolar
(19:56):
disorder affects me is on the depressive side.
I get in a flat, low energy, very tight place when I am not
feeling my best. And thank goodness for modern
(20:16):
medicine and. Everything that I can do to
manage that, but still showing up flat and low energy is my
least favorite feeling. And because it's happened so
much throughout my life and I only knew a couple years ago, I
only found out a couple years ago what that was all about.
And so now that I have a definition there, the joy that I
(20:39):
experience when I'm feeling good, like I can't describe how
grateful I am for it. The gratitude that I have for
joy is like no other. And so now that I recognize it
and I understand why I care so much about it, I'm also going to
get curious about it and try to feel it more thoroughly as
(21:01):
opposed to putting up a bit of aguardrail on not not showing up
as as emotional as I might want to get.
So that's just a little insight into the way that I experienced
(21:21):
joy and running towards it, I think gives me the feeling that
things are working. And if you know anything about
me, I need for my gadgets and especially my body to be
working. You do, you do.
(21:43):
Thanks for sharing. Yeah.
One thing that I have noticed, Iwould say that prior to your
diagnosis, you had, is it fair to say that you would have kind
of chronically, you would have chronically low periods and then
you would have bouts of what I'll call hypomania, which felt
really good to you. And it's interesting because the
(22:05):
few periods of hypomania that I have experienced that you've had
since we've been together prior to you being diagnosed and on
medication and kind of aware of what's going on, you were
incredibly vulnerable and grateful, like steeped in
gratitude during those phases. It was a stark contrast to how
(22:26):
you were in other or times of your life, right?
And but it was beautiful. It was absolutely beautiful to
witness. A little scary for me because it
kind of came out of nowhere and felt a little untenable, like a
little bit shaky, right? And that's, you know, I think
that's, that's part of why this is a, this is a disorder.
This is. Yeah.
(22:46):
But I'm really excited for you because I think that now and for
a while after your diagnosis, itwas OK.
I'm just going to be evened out,right?
I'm not going to be too low, butI'm not going to be too high.
It felt, it has felt a bit robotic.
And I hope you feel that I've been a supportive, loving
witness to that while also periodically telling you that I
don't love how robotic you are. Is that fair?
(23:09):
But over the past couple of months, I feel as though you're
tapping into something new, which to me feels like a more
sustainable way of chasing joy. Where you are aware of your
diagnosis, you take your medication, you do the right
things for your body and your mind to keep yourself stable,
but you're now opening yourself up more to vulnerability,
(23:30):
gratitude and joy in a way that feels stable and attainable.
100%. That's really exciting.
It is exciting. There's three interconnected
reasons why I think that is now available to me.
One, the robotic component serves me if I need to be
(23:55):
operating in a very alpha investment world environment and
need to show up every day with the same energy on the same Zoom
calls. You know, different topics,
different people, but really thesame conversations over and over
and show up with enough energy and enough interest to to make
(24:17):
those land right because it sails at the end of the day.
And so showing up, you know, he can't have a bad day on Zoom.
And at least that's what I tell myself so I know at.
Least that's what he tells. Myself, that's what I tell
myself. So now, because that is not the
only version of me that is showing up in a creative
(24:41):
setting, let's say this becomes a platform where I can show my
true colors, where I'm like, oh,I haven't let anybody in in a
while outside of this family. And it's because I felt slightly
embarrassed by how good things are on the inside.
(25:03):
And I felt like for a while, everyone that I was talking to
was struggling. And I realized that's not the
case. There are so many wonderful,
ambitious people out there that are vulnerable, that are raising
families that are being good parents, good husbands, good
wives, like good, good children to their parents that it's just
the world is so much bigger thanthe world in which I operate in
(25:25):
on day-to-day for, for business.And I'm, I'm excited to build
those kinds of connections. So I need to show up with my
full self in order to do that. And then #3 is for you and the
kids. Because setting an example for
them of what good looks like, ofwhat being a good husband and
father looks like is not just about being a provider.
(25:46):
It's about showing up with intention.
Just in the same way that I would for a Zoom meeting as I
will for family meeting. And up until I had this
platform, I don't think that I was able to do that because I
felt like all my eggs we're in the basket.
I'm not talking financially. I mean, I from an identity
perspective of being a venture capitalist and of being somebody
(26:10):
that needed to button up a little bit in order to go and
raise another fund and in order to find another company.
What I realized is showing up asmy whole self will actually
allow me to achieve all of thesethings and more.
And it's really thanks to the exploration of these topics that
(26:31):
I'm able to do so. So thank you for leading us on
this journey. Thank you for joining me.
It's not lost on me that some ofthese podcasts end up being mini
therapy sessions as a few peoplehave a.
Few people have said these are Greg therapy sessions, but me
(26:52):
too. Yeah.
Thanks for listening guys. But I but I hope it's setting.
I'm not trying to put a spotlight on any struggle or or
triumph of mine or our families.Trying to share that it's OK to
share. Yeah, I mean, this is really
what we want to do, right, Is just talk more about family and
(27:13):
about family culture. Because yes, you are a general
partner at a venture fund. And if you were to go on a
podcast right now about data, you probably would say something
like, yeah, family is the most important thing and then keep it
moving, right? So this is just an opportunity
for us to I hate this term, but double click on what's going on
at home and how that really how that really matters.
(27:35):
I would like to take some accountability also for your
quote, robotic nature over the past couple of years, because
quite frankly, our family was not in a place for you to
experiment too much. And I'm grateful for you for
being our rock, being a steady source.
You, I think, put yourself, yourself exploration on the back
(27:59):
burner for the past number of years because we needed you to.
And I'm grateful that we are in a I'm grateful for that.
You did that. And I'm grateful that we are now
in a place where we're able to make room for your exploration.
Yeah, thank you. Me too.
We're a great team. Thank goodness.
(28:21):
Yeah. OK.
What else? So joy.
Yeah, Joy. We can experience it more.
If we're vulnerable and practicegratitude.
What do you think the most important thing about joy is?
Yeah, I think that the so I think that the most important
(28:43):
thing about joy is to recognize that it is a deeply vulnerable
state and that we need that. I need to lean in to the
vulnerability that begets joy and that really allows it room
to grow. And that there are different
types of joy that I'm experiencing today.
That I want to continue to have my personal joy that really is
(29:06):
this, this freedom that feels connected to spirit nature, my
higher power. But that also I am going to eat
up every moment that I can with our family where there are the
silly moments and the sweet moments that are happening
inside of this young family today.
Yes, and I resolve to talk to each of our kids about what
(29:33):
brings them the most joy and howwe can create that bubble that
that environment for them to thrive without someone coming
along and popping that bubble. I like it, Yeah.
I think it's important to understand well.
Well, I do think that joy is a natural outpouring of childhood.
I think it is important to sharewhat we can with our children
(29:55):
about the things that that create the circumstances for
more sustained joy and that being gratitude and
vulnerability. Yep.
So we'll report back and I hope that others can have their own
joy interviews too 'cause this has been enlightening to
understand both the things that I suspected but needed to
(30:17):
confirm about your joy and your your foreboding joy and to be a
little vulnerable and sharing where I'm coming from as it
relates to this wonderful, beautiful feeling.
Yeah, I love it. OK, till next time.
Yeah, love you, Goosy. Love you goosy.
Hey guys, if you're still here, you're definitely our kind of
(30:37):
person. Thanks for spending this time
with us on The Most Important Thing.
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purpose.
Welcome to The Most Important Thing.
I'm Danielle DeMarco Neufeld. And I'm Greg Neufeld, and
together we're exploring how ambitious busy families can
build culture at home. Because after all, family is the
most important thing. Hey everybody, welcome back to
the most important thing. This is episode 16 on Joy.
Joy. Yeah, it is the 7th episode in
(00:20):
our Wholehearted Parenting Manifesto series by Brené Brown.
For those of you following alongat home.
And the line is I want you to know joy.
So together we will practice gratitude.
I want you to feel joy. So together we will learn how to
be vulnerable. Cool.
So joy is a fun topic. We've all experienced joy, but
(00:42):
it seems like joy is something that is harder to stay present
in as we become parents. Is that kind of what the
research says too? You know, I think that what
Brene is talking about here is creating space to feel joy
consistently and to developing adeliberate practice of joy, if
(01:02):
you will, and that to really tapinto joy as an adult.
Vulnerability and gratitude are our two cornerstones.
And so I think that when you become a parent, there are so
many more opportunities for joy,but also so many reasons to cut
yourself off from that joy or tobe too stressed or sleep
(01:26):
deprived or decision making fatigued to tap into those
moments. So it's really learning to
experience joy in a new way, if you will.
Yeah, I love that. And so there's a lot of self
exploration around joy to be done.
I did some reflecting on this topic myself yesterday.
(01:48):
Before we get into that, can I give the definition of joy?
I think it's important to distinguish joy from happiness.
So from Atlas of the Heart, Brene defines joy as sudden,
unexpected, short lasting, and high intensity.
Joy is characterized by a connection with God or nature or
other people. And joy doesn't make us lose
ourselves, but it makes us be more truly ourselves.
(02:11):
And so I think everybody knows that feeling of joy, but just to
put a finer point on it and to distinguish it from happiness.
So happiness is lower intensity and more self focused than joy.
With happiness, we feel a sense of being in control and it's
often related to immediate environment or current
circumstances. Yeah, I like that a lot.
(02:32):
The the gratitude that shows up for me when I am experiencing
joy these days is like there's like a boomerang or a throwback
to a lot of my childhood. I'm realizing as I watch our
kids, for example, when we were putting together the bunk beds,
I reflected on the bunk beds that my brother and I had.
(02:54):
And we were probably 5:00 and 3:00 at the time up till maybe
10 and 8. And for a while there, I would
wake up and I was in the top bunk and I would put my hand
down and then my brother, if he were awake, would touch my hand
to let me know that he was up. And that was a beautiful moment
(03:15):
that I didn't really remember until I saw those bunk beds
sitting in our girls room after they were fully complete.
And so now every time I walk in that room, I get this little
like heart flutter burst of joy just thinking about that.
And I know they're going to haveso many memories of their own as
a result of this structure. So it's just kind of cool to be
(03:38):
a parent and not just see the joy in the moments that my
children are are having together, but to remember some
of that childhood joy that I hadwith my brother.
I think there's a you had told me that there's a name for that,
which is called layered joy. Is that?
Right. Layered joy.
So layered joy being the joy that you're experiencing, that
(03:58):
I'm experiencing, and then the joy that I had experienced that
is triggered by the present day joy.
Yeah, and that's definitely something that is new since
becoming a parent, right? I think that that goes back to
one of these terms that we've heard over and over on these
episodes, which is the intergenerational self.
And so this idea of now that I am a parent, I can see my
(04:22):
childhood and my children as well.
And that that brings kind of an extra layer of meaning to some
of the things that are happeningin our home.
And so that's called layered joy.
Yeah, layered joy. Cool, I like that.
Yeah, it's playful in the present and rich with nostalgic
warmth. It shows how new joy can
reawaken old safe feelings. Safe feelings.
(04:44):
That's interesting. Yeah, I learned a lot in this
little exercise here, so I have some questions.
OK, What is something that surprised you by how much joy it
brought? The first time Maverick told a
funny joke recently that actually made our whole family
laugh, that was a moment of purejoy for me.
(05:07):
What was that? A couple weeks ago, we were all
getting ready for bed and you had a picture come up on your
phone and he looked at it and hesaid he was about 5 months old
in the photo probably. And he looked at me and he said,
Daddy, I was farting in that photo.
He. Was.
Like so good, so, so good. And our whole family burst out
(05:29):
laughing and just, you know, it felt like one of those moments
where he's not a baby anymore. He's not really a kid yet, but
he, he felt like one of the crewin that moment.
And I felt very connected to him.
And I think that Salinas can really be a connector in in a
joyful way for families, certainly for our family.
(05:50):
What about you? I realized that I get so much
joy from going to the beach, butthe like the ultimate moment,
the, the, the moment that we're walking down the beach path and
you can start to see the ocean and the sky is so blue and the
clouds are so beautiful. That's like peak joy for me.
(06:11):
I think the view is absolutely beautiful.
I also think there's something magical about all of us setting
out on a trail together, just journeying.
Right? Yeah.
So guys, when I experience joy, I really feel it.
And I really feel it to the point where I'm like tearing up
and I usually hold back. I usually don't let myself go
with those tears because there'ssomething like about letting it
(06:35):
wash over me that I feel is disarming.
And like I'll even if it's a movie or whatever, I always hold
it back. It's like a reflex for me.
And so yesterday I was filming this moment in with my new meta
Ray Bans, which I love. They bring me so much joy of of
(07:00):
Hunter and Jade singing Taylor Swift song.
It was just so darn cute. And just watching them perform
together and being sisters in pulling up to tennis, just like
so many things about it. So I caught the capture that
moment and I was playing it lastnight in bed after you fell
asleep and I started to feel that like total joy.
But those tears and and I was like, you know, screw it.
(07:21):
And I just let it wash over me and like I let it go and and
actually was like shaking a little bit in the best way.
And then I was like, I got to share this with somebody.
Who do I share this with? So I sent it to my brother and I
was like, this 62nd video was the best moment of my day.
And I sent it to him And right back like a minute later, he
(07:42):
watched it and he goes mine too.And I was like, he gets it.
And that was just totally special.
So thanks team met for helping me prepare for this episode
through some real feeling and and real joy and.
Connecting with your brother, which is so beautiful.
Yeah, he's, I knew he would understand.
Insane gratitude memory. Just like insane gratitude for
(08:05):
that one. Cool.
Can we talk a little bit about another type of joy?
Right, that's where I wanted to go.
OK, so, so on that joy, shuttingit down or or holding back tears
I think is another form of something that you and I've been
talking about, which is foreboding joy.
I think it's important topic here, especially as parents to
(08:28):
really get into what that means.Do you want to share the
definition and we can talk? About it I Renee Brown's the
first person that I heard talk about this, I believe.
I don't know if she coined the term or not, but I can say that
in her definition, foreboding joy is one of those practically
universal experiences that everybody thinks of as something
only they do. So what does it mean?
Well, it typically looks like you are.
(08:50):
I am watching my child peacefully sleep and start
thinking what if something were to happen to them?
Or laughing with us as a family and thinking this isn't going to
last. And Brene calls this act of
foreboding joy as dress rehearsing tragedy.
And she notes that it is the antidote to gratitude.
(09:12):
And I am very guilty of using these moments as an opportunity
to kind of not be vulnerable andsteel myself against future
hardship. When she says, and I know that
that doesn't work, that really the opposite is what my work is
to do, which is to lean into that joy, to fully immerse
(09:36):
myself in the present moment andto ground myself in gratitude in
that experience Because, you know, maybe it won't last, but
maybe we'll have 100 more. But regardless, when tough times
do come, me preventing myself from fully feeling joy in these
good moments isn't going to help.
(09:56):
And so I think this concept of foreboding joy is one that I may
have experienced prior to havingkids, but I, it definitely comes
up more now that I have, you know, I have so much more to
lose. When it was just me, it was just
me, you know, And now for every moment of connectedness, there's
(10:18):
also this flip side potential place that could go to a feeling
of disconnection, right? Or what if we don't have a good
relationship when they get older, right?
Like I was reading with Hunter in bed last night, which is one
of our favorite things to do. We just sit by side by side and
read our own books. And, you know, I'll massage her
arm or something while we're reading.
(10:39):
And it's the most lovely, peaceful, connected experience.
But I can't help but think sometimes in those moments,
like, what if 20 years from now,she doesn't want to talk to me,
You know? And, and I know that that's not
going to happen overnight. And I'm doing everything in my
power to make sure that doesn't happen.
(11:00):
But I think that my work to do is to really feel those moments
of deep joy and connectedness, rather than to try to prevent
myself from fully experiencing in some way of protecting myself
for the future. So if you're in a moment of joy
(11:21):
and foreboding, joy shows up. Is it a specific type of joy
that triggers it more than others?
Is it something that's related to our family?
Or is it just show up where it chooses?
Well, I think that for me currently, foreboding joy really
shows up when I'm feeling connected to the joy of one of
our children, which also helps me in thinking about this, what
(11:46):
I want to experiment with and how I would like to, how I would
like to transition. I'd like to take some of my joy
back, honestly. Like, I think that I talk about
you and I talk about this a lot,but I had such a fully developed
self when we met. I think that's probably part of
what attracted you to me, right?I was 28 years old, almost 29
(12:07):
years old. I had I had my career, I had my
friends, I had my spiritual relationship, my ways of
accessing joy, which primarily consisted of dancing at clubs,
Wednesday Warriors, you're stillout there.
And then we met, we fell in love, we got married, we had
children. COVID happened.
(12:27):
Like I picked my head up and it's been, you know, it's been 9
years. And during that time I really
collapsed my individual sense ofself, right?
And I'm just now trying to integrate the two, if you will.
So if you can think about like the first chapter of my life
being about personal deep joy, which really was that
(12:50):
connectedness to my higher powerinto the universe where I
strongly felt that on the dance floor and maybe in a Soul Cycle
class, moving my body in the dark room to the music.
There's a consistent theme here of music.
And then more recently, the joy has been around our children and
watching them or connecting withthem.
(13:10):
I'd like to bring more of that individual connection with
nature and higher power joy backinto my life.
And that one feels more sustainable too, because it
doesn't involve another human being.
So on the one hand, I'd like to move through foreboding joy for
sure, and like, deeply use thoseas opportunities to stay steeped
(13:31):
in gratitude. On the other hand, I would just
like to look for more moments ofpersonal joy.
Yeah, you, you alluded to something that I think is really
profound, that your children areoften taking your joy away in
that moment because they're so aware of your almost like you
(13:54):
put a bubble around yourself like we all do.
We all put bubbles around ourselves in a moment of joy.
And they're like, hey mom, they're popping your bubble.
Well, yeah, it's a deeply vulnerable space, right?
To to be unabashedly joyful is avery, at least for me, for sure.
And I want, And so one thing that I would like for when we
talk about joy within our familyculture and in our family
dynamic, while I am excited to have more shared experiences of
(14:19):
joy, I am also committed to allowing individual joy to have
space in our home and in the waythat we and in the way that we
commune with one another. I am definitely guilty of trying
to, I won't say burst the bubble, but I will say like
tighten the bubble of the joy onour children.
Like sometimes their joy is justoverwhelming to me.
(14:42):
And I wish that I was spiritually awakened enough to
always recognize that and just let it, let it be.
But sometimes it's like 5:00 AM and Greg's still sleeping.
And I don't really think it's appropriate to be belting out
wicked at the top of your lungs,even if that makes you really
joyful, right? But I do think that I can, I can
(15:02):
make more space for it. I'm not saying I'm going to go
like full 100% let you always bethe brightest light in the room,
but I want to recognize when youand me and each of our family
members are experiencing some type of personal joy and
communion with spirit. Say and allow more space for
(15:26):
that because I I want that. I hate when someone comes up to
me and tells me my dance moves look weird in the kitchen.
Well, I think that there's there's the dance moves
commentary, but then there's also the it's a 10 and you're
supposed to be in the car 10 minutes ago and you're, you
know, you haven't brushed your teeth and you're dancing on the
table looking at your reflectionin the TV.
(15:48):
Like, I understand that you're getting, you know, a moment of
joy here, but this is not an appropriate time to do it.
Yeah, it's tricky. It's.
Tricky. It's tricky.
There's that, there's that kind of joy, but then there's also
like this silliness joy, which Ithink to me is a bit more
connecting. Like that's where I see when I
think about joy within our family, I think about
experiential opportunities, likeyou said, kind of all going to
(16:10):
the beach together or walking a trail together to see a new
beautiful scenic site. But then there's also just like
the end of our family meeting yesterday when we played that
silly game Watch your mouth, where you stick the dental
things in your mouth. I don't even know what you call
them. And it's just absolute
ridiculousness, right? And so that's a really, we're
all on the same page at the samefrequency being silly together.
(16:32):
And that feels like the type of joy that I think really does
bring family cohesion, at least to us.
Yes, And anything physical that is spontaneous, where we're all
in it together, that's where themagic happens.
If it's too forced, it's it's someone's going to be crying.
(16:56):
Yeah, yes, although still my favorite family meeting learning
was twerking and you being the only one that could twerk.
I think every single one of us really appreciated watching you
booty bounce. Well, I appreciated it too.
That's good. I mean, they don't get that many
opportunities to see Daddy silly.
(17:16):
Yeah, I guess I try to only be silly.
So I guess maybe I need to be less silly in order to be more,
if that makes sense. I don't know.
I think I sometimes show up justas trying to be silly in order
to get some levity out of a situation when somebody's in
(17:38):
their feelings. And that's not the same
silliness as twerking. And.
Correct. Yes, I I you do bring levity to
difficult situations, I would agree.
But I also think generally speaking, during the week you
show up pretty tight. Yeah, no, it's true.
If I may say. I'm I'm working on on that,
especially as it relates to thisproject of ours here, because I
(18:02):
noticed the connectedness of talking about really the
reparenting, if you will, and bemore connected and intentional
as a father and husband and in this family.
It's it's it all works together as a as a great fluid motion.
So you know, we're we're two months in and I and I can see
(18:24):
the the little changes in me. So I'm I'm excited about this.
I can. Too, for sure.
Yeah, I'm grateful for them. OK, so we talked about what
foreboding joy feels like and what joy feels like in your body
and in your mind. But you know, in reflecting on
the way that joy feels, I realized that I'm, I'm going to
(18:47):
call myself a joy chaser. And the reason I'm going to say
that is because it feels like a full body reverberation to me in
the best way. It's like a hum under my skin
and my eyes filled with tears. And often times I don't let
myself go over the edge there. And I think that the reason I
don't let myself go over the edge there is because it
(19:09):
actually feels pretty similar, though a lot more stable to what
I would call mania or hypomania.And as I kind of alluded to a
few episodes back, I have bipolar disorder and I've only
had a couple of hypomanic episodes and none since my
(19:34):
diagnosis. And I take care of my body
really well. I'm on medication and it's not
the mania so much that concerns me, but it is an amazing
feeling. And that is the analogy to joy.
But the reason that I chased joyis because the way that bipolar
(19:56):
disorder affects me is on the depressive side.
I get in a flat, low energy, very tight place when I am not
feeling my best. And thank goodness for modern
(20:16):
medicine and. Everything that I can do to
manage that, but still showing up flat and low energy is my
least favorite feeling. And because it's happened so
much throughout my life and I only knew a couple years ago, I
only found out a couple years ago what that was all about.
And so now that I have a definition there, the joy that I
(20:39):
experience when I'm feeling good, like I can't describe how
grateful I am for it. The gratitude that I have for
joy is like no other. And so now that I recognize it
and I understand why I care so much about it, I'm also going to
get curious about it and try to feel it more thoroughly as
(21:01):
opposed to putting up a bit of aguardrail on not not showing up
as as emotional as I might want to get.
So that's just a little insight into the way that I experienced
(21:21):
joy and running towards it, I think gives me the feeling that
things are working. And if you know anything about
me, I need for my gadgets and especially my body to be
working. You do, you do.
(21:43):
Thanks for sharing. Yeah.
One thing that I have noticed, Iwould say that prior to your
diagnosis, you had, is it fair to say that you would have kind
of chronically, you would have chronically low periods and then
you would have bouts of what I'll call hypomania, which felt
really good to you. And it's interesting because the
(22:05):
few periods of hypomania that I have experienced that you've had
since we've been together prior to you being diagnosed and on
medication and kind of aware of what's going on, you were
incredibly vulnerable and grateful, like steeped in
gratitude during those phases. It was a stark contrast to how
(22:26):
you were in other or times of your life, right?
And but it was beautiful. It was absolutely beautiful to
witness. A little scary for me because it
kind of came out of nowhere and felt a little untenable, like a
little bit shaky, right? And that's, you know, I think
that's, that's part of why this is a, this is a disorder.
This is. Yeah.
(22:46):
But I'm really excited for you because I think that now and for
a while after your diagnosis, itwas OK.
I'm just going to be evened out,right?
I'm not going to be too low, butI'm not going to be too high.
It felt, it has felt a bit robotic.
And I hope you feel that I've been a supportive, loving
witness to that while also periodically telling you that I
don't love how robotic you are. Is that fair?
(23:09):
But over the past couple of months, I feel as though you're
tapping into something new, which to me feels like a more
sustainable way of chasing joy. Where you are aware of your
diagnosis, you take your medication, you do the right
things for your body and your mind to keep yourself stable,
but you're now opening yourself up more to vulnerability,
(23:30):
gratitude and joy in a way that feels stable and attainable.
100%. That's really exciting.
It is exciting. There's three interconnected
reasons why I think that is now available to me.
One, the robotic component serves me if I need to be
(23:55):
operating in a very alpha investment world environment and
need to show up every day with the same energy on the same Zoom
calls. You know, different topics,
different people, but really thesame conversations over and over
and show up with enough energy and enough interest to to make
(24:17):
those land right because it sails at the end of the day.
And so showing up, you know, he can't have a bad day on Zoom.
And at least that's what I tell myself so I know at.
Least that's what he tells. Myself, that's what I tell
myself. So now, because that is not the
only version of me that is showing up in a creative
(24:41):
setting, let's say this becomes a platform where I can show my
true colors, where I'm like, oh,I haven't let anybody in in a
while outside of this family. And it's because I felt slightly
embarrassed by how good things are on the inside.
(25:03):
And I felt like for a while, everyone that I was talking to
was struggling. And I realized that's not the
case. There are so many wonderful,
ambitious people out there that are vulnerable, that are raising
families that are being good parents, good husbands, good
wives, like good, good children to their parents that it's just
the world is so much bigger thanthe world in which I operate in
(25:25):
on day-to-day for, for business.And I'm, I'm excited to build
those kinds of connections. So I need to show up with my
full self in order to do that. And then #3 is for you and the
kids. Because setting an example for
them of what good looks like, ofwhat being a good husband and
father looks like is not just about being a provider.
(25:46):
It's about showing up with intention.
Just in the same way that I would for a Zoom meeting as I
will for family meeting. And up until I had this
platform, I don't think that I was able to do that because I
felt like all my eggs we're in the basket.
I'm not talking financially. I mean, I from an identity
perspective of being a venture capitalist and of being somebody
(26:10):
that needed to button up a little bit in order to go and
raise another fund and in order to find another company.
What I realized is showing up asmy whole self will actually
allow me to achieve all of thesethings and more.
And it's really thanks to the exploration of these topics that
(26:31):
I'm able to do so. So thank you for leading us on
this journey. Thank you for joining me.
It's not lost on me that some ofthese podcasts end up being mini
therapy sessions as a few peoplehave a.
Few people have said these are Greg therapy sessions, but me
(26:52):
too. Yeah.
Thanks for listening guys. But I but I hope it's setting.
I'm not trying to put a spotlight on any struggle or or
triumph of mine or our families.Trying to share that it's OK to
share. Yeah, I mean, this is really
what we want to do, right, Is just talk more about family and
(27:13):
about family culture. Because yes, you are a general
partner at a venture fund. And if you were to go on a
podcast right now about data, you probably would say something
like, yeah, family is the most important thing and then keep it
moving, right? So this is just an opportunity
for us to I hate this term, but double click on what's going on
at home and how that really how that really matters.
(27:35):
I would like to take some accountability also for your
quote, robotic nature over the past couple of years, because
quite frankly, our family was not in a place for you to
experiment too much. And I'm grateful for you for
being our rock, being a steady source.
You, I think, put yourself, yourself exploration on the back
(27:59):
burner for the past number of years because we needed you to.
And I'm grateful that we are in a I'm grateful for that.
You did that. And I'm grateful that we are now
in a place where we're able to make room for your exploration.
Yeah, thank you. Me too.
We're a great team. Thank goodness.
(28:21):
Yeah. OK.
What else? So joy.
Yeah, Joy. We can experience it more.
If we're vulnerable and practicegratitude.
What do you think the most important thing about joy is?
Yeah, I think that the so I think that the most important
(28:43):
thing about joy is to recognize that it is a deeply vulnerable
state and that we need that. I need to lean in to the
vulnerability that begets joy and that really allows it room
to grow. And that there are different
types of joy that I'm experiencing today.
That I want to continue to have my personal joy that really is
(29:06):
this, this freedom that feels connected to spirit nature, my
higher power. But that also I am going to eat
up every moment that I can with our family where there are the
silly moments and the sweet moments that are happening
inside of this young family today.
Yes, and I resolve to talk to each of our kids about what
(29:33):
brings them the most joy and howwe can create that bubble that
that environment for them to thrive without someone coming
along and popping that bubble. I like it, Yeah.
I think it's important to understand well.
Well, I do think that joy is a natural outpouring of childhood.
I think it is important to sharewhat we can with our children
(29:55):
about the things that that create the circumstances for
more sustained joy and that being gratitude and
vulnerability. Yep.
So we'll report back and I hope that others can have their own
joy interviews too 'cause this has been enlightening to
understand both the things that I suspected but needed to
(30:17):
confirm about your joy and your your foreboding joy and to be a
little vulnerable and sharing where I'm coming from as it
relates to this wonderful, beautiful feeling.
Yeah, I love it. OK, till next time.
Yeah, love you, Goosy. Love you goosy.
Hey guys, if you're still here, you're definitely our kind of
(30:37):
person. Thanks for spending this time
with us on The Most Important Thing.
If this episode resonated with you, we'd love for you to follow
us wherever you get your podcasts and share it with
someone else. Building family culture on
purpose.
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