July 21, 2025 • 32 mins
🎙️ Episode 19: Belonging
From the Wholehearted Parenting Manifesto:
“We will always have permission to be ourselves with each other no matter what. You will always belong here.”
In this episode of The Most Important Thing, we dive into one of the most fundamental human needs: belonging.
We unpack the tension between raising kids with a strong family identity while also giving them the space to become their own people.
Along the way, we explore:
- The difference between fitting in and belonging (thanks, Brené + 8th graders!).
- What it looks like to foster individuation at any age.
- How childhood wounds around belonging shape us as adults.
- The risk of a strong family culture becoming unwelcoming.
- Why tolerance, trust, and dialogue are essential as kids absorb outside influences.
- What we’ve been doing—versus what we might experiment with—when a child comes home with “someone else’s energy.”
TMIT about Belonging is that our sense of belonging can never be greater than our level of self‑acceptance.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to The Most Important Thing.
I'm Danielle DeMarco Neufeld. And I'm Greg Neufeld, and
together we're exploring how ambitious busy families can
build culture at home. Because after all, family is the
most important thing. Hi everybody, and welcome back
to episode 19 on belonging. We are continuing with our
wholehearted parenting manifesto, which I'm sure you
(00:22):
know by now. And the line today is we will
always have permission to be ourselves with each other.
No matter what, you will always belong here.
Belonging is a real tough cookie.
OK. It's like the most important
thing and yet so hard to nail down, I think, and to really
(00:45):
feel right in Maslow's hierarchyof needs, it's the very bottom
of the pyramid. Love and belonging is like the
base need of human, of the humancondition.
Yeah, and there's lots of different types of belonging,
right? Brene, who, you know, she's a
shame researcher, but I think the belonging is inextricably
(01:05):
linked to the shame in the humanexperience.
And so she says we have to belong to ourselves as much as
we need to belong to others. When I read that, I was thinking
about you. And so we've touched upon the
idea that you are a four on the Enneagram, which is defined as
the terminally unique. And like most personality tests,
(01:28):
the Enneagram is not everything.But I do think it's a pretty
informative. Before that I would have called
myself maybe a chameleon. OK, so I agree with the
assessment that I I do feel terminally unique and through my
whole life I have done a lot of intentional work to blend in
wherever my surroundings broughtme.
(01:51):
Interesting. Yeah.
Because you know, in Brene Brown's Atlas of the Heart, she
has this great illustration thatcomes from one of her times
speaking with 8th graders about fitting in versus belonging.
And they gave some beautiful definitions, if I will, if you
don't mind if I go through them and maybe maybe you can talk
(02:12):
about some of them resonating ornot with you.
So the first says belonging is being somewhere where you want
to be and they want you versus fitting in as being somewhere
you want to be, but they don't care one way or another.
That really hits home. Yeah, I I would have never, I
(02:34):
would have thought the two were interchangeable and that
definition just. I don't know if this is hitting
any of you as hard as it's hitting us, but like, that is
high school in a nutshell for me.
Yeah. This whole middle.
School. Elementary school.
Being somewhere you want to be, but they don't care one way or
(02:55):
another. Oh, that is something.
This is a very profoundly wise 13 year old.
I'd said that. Can I give you some of the other
ones? Belonging is being accepted for
you. Fitting in is being accepted for
being like everyone else. Yep.
(03:16):
And then the third one says, if I get to be me, I belong.
If I have to be like you, I fit in.
I think that one is the one thatis most directly applicable to
our family and maybe to all family cultures, which is this
(03:37):
how to have a strong family culture and value system of this
is what it means to be a new Feld.
This is what it means to be partof our family while still making
space for everyone's individual preferences and idiosyncrasies,
and making sure that they know that they will always belong in
(03:58):
this family and they don't need to fit in.
Absolutely. I hope that we're modeling that
for them. I think the trickier 1 is how to
model belonging in the broader sense.
Yeah, but let's stay in the family for a.
Little bit. So if we if we stay within the
(04:19):
family, because I don't know if it's really the trickier one,
because we have really like the first eight episodes of this
podcast have really given us a foundation for creating routines
and rituals that set family culture, family meetings, family
meals, family movement, etcetera, right.
(04:40):
That it really defines what to belong to.
Yes, and making space to for everyone to show up.
And I do think that our childrenreally like being Neufelds right
now. Like Jayden Hunter and I spoke
about this on our walk yesterdayand they Hunter even said, you
know, another thing we could do is we could all take family
walks together. Like they really like being a
(05:02):
part of our family. And so, so far, I think we're
doing OK, but they're going to grow.
And I, I do there's this idea, Iguess it's a young Yan idea as
well called individuation, whichis really separating from your,
from your family, from your parents.
And it is a lifelong process, but obviously it shows up in
(05:25):
adolescence most strongly. And so I think part of this is
trying. We are obviously we have a bunch
of pre adolescence in our family.
We are not quite there yet, but creating this spaciousness for
healthy individuation is something that I would really
like to create practices sooner rather than later.
(05:51):
And so when I was looking in theresearch as far as what that is,
and you know, it really is a continuation of the way that we
are that we parented our toddlers and that we still do
today with with a lot of autonomy.
So, you know, do you want to wear the blue shirt or the red
shirt? Do you want to go to the
bathroom and then brush your teeth or brush your teeth and
then go to the bathroom kind of thing like building just a
(06:13):
continuation of that. Everything from those tiny micro
choices up to, you know, yes, you can go to that party, but
please call me when you get there or please text me when you
get there, Right. And so thinking about, I feel
like there's a lot of literatureout there about how to give
children autonomy zero to three at least I certainly have
(06:37):
experienced have been immersed in that literature.
I don't know how much there really is about 3 to preteen.
Dr. Becky comes to mind as someone who can help you with
skill building, but that still Idon't.
I mean, I love Doctor Becky, butI'm not sure that that still, at
(06:59):
least for me, is giving me enough of a framework for how to
allow them to take steps in individuation and what I'm
supposed to do to support that while still maintaining some
level of authority as the parent.
Yeah. Is the individuation component
and the lack of resources that you speak of, is that something
(07:23):
that is currently showing up right now where you're looking
for something proactively because you're noticing
something maybe in Hunter and even Jade as they spend more
time with friends and pick up idiosyncratic personality
characteristics. I think that's what you pick up.
Absolutely. Yeah.
I just noticed the gap like I, Idon't feel maybe some of our
(07:44):
listeners can help me with some guidance because I love a good
book, right? And I love a good framework
around, you know, let's call it ages 3 to 10.
If I think that there's, you know, Heimgennot and Magda
Gerber and a ton of different books around kind of the
toddler, like zero to three years and how to foster autonomy
(08:05):
and respect for the individual. And then I'm already learning
about things in adolescence. Like Doctor Lisa Damore comes up
as someone who is really focused.
And I think we we talked about her in our fear episode as well
as someone who really is help helping to manage this idea that
kids don't need to be happy all the time, but they do need to
feel anchored. But what's in between?
(08:27):
I think that you, you did mention friendships and you
know, let's call it drop off play dates.
Yeah, I think the concern for meis, and this is definitely some
projection here, I growing up I did one thing with my family and
another thing with my friends. And let's say, you know, we
(08:49):
didn't have a family culture practice the way that we do here
in the Neufeld household. But I could see the culture
stopping as soon as our child hits the playground and then
comes home and acts one way, a chameleon, so to speak.
And isn't upholding the culture and values in order to fit it.
(09:09):
Like that's, that's the worry that I would would have for our
children. OK.
Can you, can you be more specific like from your
experience perhaps? Sure.
So if a friend of one of our children is lying or stealing
or, you know, doing something toget attention and our child
thinks that's pretty cool and they start lying or stealing or
(09:29):
cheating in school to befriend that person.
That doesn't mean that they believe that those things are
necessarily good or in line withtheir values.
But they might overweight the importance of that friendship in
order to gain trust of that person versus sticking within
the guidelines of being noble and, you know, unbothered and
(09:52):
really determined to be their best self in the Newfeld way.
And that's my fear is that they show up at school in one way in
order to gain friends and win friends and influence people.
And then they come home and theyare still active, willing
participants in the Newfeld family culture.
But it doesn't carry over. Where do you think that fear
comes from? From me doing it.
(10:15):
OK, Can you talk a little bit about that fear then 'cause
it's, it's funny, like I'll justtell you that I, I think this
goes back to this like rebel andupholder thing too, that like I,
well, maybe not, I don't know. I can just tell you that that is
not something I think I fell into much as a child.
Sure. So let's just use these two
(10:35):
terms, fitting in and belonging,OK?
Fitting in and belonging feel very similar as a child or felt
very similar as a child to me. Even though now listening to
that definition, I was like, wow, I was not belonging.
I was just fitting in. And the person that was driving
that negative culture in my friend group that I was trying
(10:56):
to follow couldn't have cared less whether or not I was a
participant or not. I cared.
And so I thought that I was belonging at home.
I felt like I was belonging already.
And So what work do I need to doto put in here?
I belong here. I don't belong there.
I need to do the work to belong over there.
That's what I think a lot of children are faced with when
(11:18):
they have to choose between eating lunch alone or eating
lunch with a group of peers thatthey don't necessarily see
themselves as being aligned withsocially.
Like hey, I can I can be a a good person and eat at the
loser's table where I can be a bad person and eat with the cool
(11:38):
kids. That's like really black and
white. Is that really how you felt?
100%. Interesting.
I mean, it's it, it wasn't just how I felt.
It's it's how it was. Yeah.
I guess question for you. So though those kids at the cool
table, do you think that any of them would say that they really
(11:59):
felt that they belonged in high school with their peer group or,
or even in middle school? Or do you think that everybody
I, I don't know. Oh I I I truly think that this
goes back to not feeling like they belonged at home.
Oh. So it's a point of view that I
have no perspective on because Ialways felt like I belonged at
(12:22):
home. But when I hear stories of
entrepreneurs that were shunned by their father, you know, who
had a drinking problem or a gambling problem or, you know,
left the family or had a second family, this idea of chips on
shoulders put chips in pockets, I think coined by Josh Wolf.
It, it really rings true to me. I don't have any experience with
(12:43):
that. That was not me.
Interesting. But I do believe that some of
those stories were mirrors of the kids that I spent time with
at the cool kids table. Yeah, OK.
Yeah, because the second part ofBrene Brown's, you know, 8th
grader post it note illustrationis all about not belonging at
home. And so I'd love to read you some
(13:03):
of these because I think these are, you know, we're actively
making space for family culture right now.
But I do think that these are telling potential blind spots
and something that we should that we could look out for.
So let me let. Me and and by the way, before
you do that, remember that anyone who's not belonging at
home is going to try to find belonging somewhere, right
(13:25):
because. It's a foundational need.
Because it's a foundational need.
And so the fear that I have for our children is that that
becomes attractive just as as much as it was attractive to me.
And that they don't have tools for integrating, for bringing
that back to us and saying, hey,I really think that this is an
(13:47):
interesting perspective on life.And don't tell me that this
person's bad because I want to be their friend, but do tell me
how I can go to sleep at night and uphold the Neufeld family
values while also seeing and exploring this perspective that
this person has on life that is new and interesting and
different and and kind of attractive to me.
(14:10):
And I didn't have that. I had a black and white.
It was like, OK, you can be friends with that person, but
that's a bad kid. Yeah, and I fear that we may
pass that along. Bingo.
I think that the flip side of having such an intentional
family culture is that we may create walls and that, you know,
(14:32):
may look like walls with extended family or other
families in the neighborhood, but it also may look like walls
that our children, when they want to spend time with peers,
feel like they can't come back inside of.
And so I think our work to do and we have time.
Our kids are 7, five and three. We have we have time.
They still look up to us and think everything that we say is
(14:53):
great for the most part. But this is this is kind of the
stuff that I've been, I think beating around the Bush about
now that I'm thinking about someof my worries.
And it's what's rubbing off on our kids elsewhere that they're
bringing into the home that right now we can correct and
they understand. And giving giving them some
space from it allows them to reintegrate, but as they get
(15:15):
older they don't want to correctthose things.
Yeah. I think that we've been a bit
critical around like, oh, you'reat this camp and when you come
home, you need to shake off thatenergy because that energy is
not acceptable in our home, right.
So, yeah, I think that we have some work to do here because we
(15:35):
are very frequently saying things like you need to shake
off that energy from camp because you're hanging around
with kids that are more fill in the blank than you and that's
not how you behave. So you need to come back and be
Hunter and be part of the Neufeld family, right?
And so that's already we're it'slike a we're giving her no space
(16:00):
to integrate things from outside.
And here, on the one hand, we'resaying that we want family as a
democracy and we want to be ableto set the culture as a family
of five individuals. But on the other hand, when our
kids are going out and exploringother energies, let's just say
we are not receptive to it coming back so far.
And I think we need to change that.
(16:21):
Yeah. And in conversations with
friends that have older kids, you know, I've been trying to
put myself in the kids shoes when I'm listening to the parent
talk about some of the some of the firm rules that they put
around topics that I think are were put around me and that I
evaded seamlessly, right. It's so interesting because when
(16:41):
you talk to your friends you putyourself in the kids seat
exactly, but then somehow you become your parent when it's our
kids at home. Totally.
And so I see this as a blind spot and I don't want history to
repeat itself where we have a wonderful family culture and one
of our children, probably one ortwo, not all three in this case.
But I do think that we're at risk of one or two of our kids
(17:04):
for sure to repeat exactly the same behavior that I did.
And more importantly, for us to repeat the same behavior that my
parents did, which was to not ignore it, but almost like act
as if it was a phase or just sayyou need to shake off that
energy or just, you know, try totry to pull me back in when the
(17:25):
school year was over. So some work to do.
Here, absolutely. So what I am hearing is that
there's something here wrapped up in belonging about tolerance,
and I think that we could work on accepting differences while
still maintaining connection. Definitely.
(17:47):
And yeah, I think that that's part of our work to do with our
bridges from this island. To continue the metaphor, 'cause
it's, you know, it's within our community, it's within our
extended family. Because we were talking to a
friend the other day and he saidsomething that really made me
think. And he said, you know, we're so
intentional about creating our family culture that it is
(18:09):
creating my words like knock on effects within our extended
family and, you know, maybe changing, like changing the
boundaries in the way that we that we interact with them.
But a thing that we think about a lot is what are we ultimately
teaching our children about how to tolerate differences if we
(18:31):
kind of keep ourselves in a bubble and don't allow
connection to people that have different values than we do?
And that really hit me because Ithink that, you know, boundaries
are important to keep ourselves safe and connected, but there
are often opportunities to practice tolerance of
(18:53):
differences in other people thatare perfectly safe, differences
that we can accept. And to really, I guess this
comes back to making the implicit explicit again, and to
look for opportunities to talk about differences that we do
observe and and can tolerate andstill feel safe.
Yeah, I've, I've always gone to this like being grateful for the
(19:18):
global society that our kids aregrowing up in where you and I
have access to resources and connections and people and we're
just relatively resourceful ourselves at finding more like
minded folks. Like Hunter going to theater
camp is an amazing exploration for her.
(19:38):
How do I had a broader horizon where didn't necessarily need to
associate with the same 110 kidsfor my entire K through 12
school? Like maybe I would have leaned
into some of those things as opposed to pull pulling back.
Like I definitely pulled back academically.
I definitely pulled back in in extracurriculars.
(20:01):
I definitely tried to play sports that I had no business or
no interest in playing. It's just one of those things.
And like, I just think the worldis so much bigger as opposed to
us having to deal with basicallythe bullying that comes out of
small town politics. Just expand the horizons and go
where it's warm. OK, so how do you make that
(20:22):
actionable though, Like because a lot of people do live in.
I mean, there's Jenny who like gets to live half the year in
Rome, which is amazing and I think a real bonus for her kids,
as we talked about on the team at teammates episode.
But I do think most of us spend 12 months of the year in one
area in community and there's a lot of benefits to community.
(20:45):
But how do so I, I guess what I'm trying to say is like, I
don't know if the right action is to, for us is to kind of
throw the baby out with the bathwater and not lean into
community. But it is I, I don't, I don't
know exactly how. I think we're just going to have
to take it a day at a time and just recognize how to be more
(21:06):
tolerant when our children are coming home with other people's
energy. Honestly, I'm thinking about how
we talk about shaking off other people's energy because we've
always seen that as not the realhunter, let's say, but maybe it
actually is the real hunter whenshe is not with you and me, like
(21:30):
when she is with other people. And we, it would be a great
opportunity or experiment for usto kind of allow more of.
And what do we really mean when we talk about other people's
energy? We're talking about more
theatrical behavior, sometimes more aggressive behavior.
(21:51):
What else? There's just mannerisms and
sayings and tones and intonations.
Yeah, that's that's true. And it's it's a lot of parroting
of other. But I wanna believe that she's
not, that she's navigating, thatshe's finding her way and that
she's experimenting as opposed to this becoming like, I think
you and I are really quick to like that Sounds like name
(22:13):
insert ex friend. It doesn't sound like you and
maybe, you know, our work to do is to be a bit more tolerant of
that as she navigates, not we really operating from a space of
trust and love as opposed to a place of fear, worrying that
she's, you know, not going to uphold our values in some way.
I don't know. I'm I'm, I'm wondering if this
(22:34):
you belong here no matter what is the right vibe like not that
it's the wrong vibe, but is it the right one because the you
needs to be defined a little bitmore.
I don't know, can we talk about what these 8th graders said
about their homes? Because I think that this is
what we really have to luck out for.
(22:54):
So, you know, we talked about belonging versus fitting in, but
then the things that they said are also not belonging at school
is really hard, but it's nothingcompared to what it feels like
when you don't belong at home. And then they give some
examples. Different kids say different
things. Not living up to your parents
expectations. Not being as cool or popular as
(23:15):
your parents want you to be. Not being good at the same
things your parents were good at.
Your parents being embarrassed because you don't have enough
friends or you're not an athleteor a cheerleader.
Your parents not liking who you are and what you like to do when
(23:36):
your parents don't pay attentionto your life.
Those are some really deep wounds.
Really deep wounds. And I think that we we brush up
against those honestly sometimesin our in our drive to be
intentional and create this container that is our family
(23:57):
culture. I do think that we have been
less tolerant of what shapes ourchildren outside of this family.
Whoops. Yeah, I'd agree.
So what can we do? Pause and be silent when they
express things that are clearly not from the Newfeld household.
(24:23):
I like the the saying of be a scientist, not a sports fan.
OK. Where we're not necessarily
rooting for an outcome here, we're here to observe.
And when we have the data that shows that something isn't
working for us and our family, we present that data as opposed
to, you know, it's the same as it's the same as we would with
(24:47):
Maverick. We redirect now and we correct
later, right? Like, we observe and write down
what we're seeing, and then we present our findings in a
discussion in. A curious way.
In a curious way. Yeah, OK.
What I'm thinking of is this framework that I really like of
awareness, acceptance, action. So I think this conversation is
(25:10):
giving me a new level of awareness to kind of how
intolerant of differences we canbe.
And I want to work on acceptancethere.
They say acceptance is the step that typically takes the longest
and I don't want to jump straight to action, I guess like
that's my natural go to. But I think it probably we've
explored some today around why we might want to foster this
(25:34):
strong sense of belonging. I think a lot of it really, I'm
kind of a blank slate. I have to tell you.
Like I, I don't really have thatmany like memories around
belonging in this age. So I, I'm kind of, I'm allowing
you to not allowing, I'm asking you to take the lead.
And I do think that just naturally, because I don't have
a strong feeling on this topic, which is shocking.
(25:56):
I have strong feelings on everything that I do think that
your experiences have really shaped the way that we think
about peers and people outside this home.
Is that fair to say? And so I think we have more
awareness now on where that's coming from and perhaps we can
(26:16):
work to accept it in the sense that like make peace with it, if
you will. And make sure kind of what Jen
was talking about and team teammates the other day of just
like, what is my stuff and what is what my child is actually
presenting. And just make sure that we are
working with the here and now and what is actually being
presented. And that we work on our own
(26:38):
stuff separately, 'cause I do think this is as Hunter is
getting older, she's the oldest and she's the one that getting
older. This is the time where you may
start to have a lot of feelings about how she interacts with the
world and then comes back home to the family.
Yeah, I'm just aware of the relationship between
(27:00):
responsibilities and belonging at home.
I feel like growing up, I didn'thave nearly as many
responsibilities as Hunter does at 7.
I probably didn't have as many at 17 as she does at 7.
And I think that the responsibilities are a Canary in
the coal mine. They're directionally correct in
terms of how well those are getting managed versus the whole
(27:23):
of herself. Do you want to talk about her
responsibilities? Just to be specific for the
audience. Yeah, sure.
So today she's responsible for taking the lead on making
breakfast for her and her brother and sister, for emptying
the dishwasher, for getting dressed, for cleaning up her
room, for making her bed, for supervising her brother and
(27:43):
sister's evening routine of getting ready for bed.
What else? Feeding Winston.
Feeding Winston and and taking alook at the daily checklist just
to make sure that everybody is on top of their tasks.
I'm throwing in a couple of new things as they show up for me
because around her age, maybe a little bit older, I wanted to
(28:07):
have my own money and cash Todayis kind of silly to for a child
to hold onto. Easy to get lost, hard to keep
track of. So I got her a credit card and
it's a easy thing to change the setting in the Robin Hood credit
card app to give her $63 that she has 'cause.
(28:29):
That's what she earned in her pet.
Care business 'cause that's whatshe earned in her pet care
business on that card and I wantto keep giving her these little
responsibilities that show that we trust her, but also that give
us the ability to monitor and make sure that that trust is
deserved, right. So like, I'm a big proponent of
(28:49):
what Uber's doing with their Uber teen accounts.
Like she'll be the first to haveit of her friends.
I just want for our kids to knowthat they belong and that those
responsibilities that they have are not just to us, but to
themselves. Because if we see some of those
going, I do believe that's a sign of a bigger problem.
(29:12):
Absolutely. It is like there are days when
she resists her chores there, There are days when she is
joyful about her chores and she goes about them like Cinderella,
and then there are days where she kicks and screams against
them. They all do.
They all do. I mean, Maverick in particular,
he has like just a few chores todo.
And many times I actually think it's too few because he really
(29:33):
fights against them. And that really says a lot about
what is going on in his brain asopposed to the actual putting
the plates in the dishwasher. Yeah.
So we've talked a lot about belonging and what I'm really
what I'm cautious of is in orderfor it to be true belonging, I
think we might need to be a little bit less strict with our
definitions of what it means to be a part of this family.
(29:58):
Because I do believe that the most important thing about
belonging is that we have to belong to ourselves as much as
we need to belong to others. And so I want us to caution
ourselves against this idea thatwe've created such a strong
culture between the two of us 'cause you and I are very
simpatico that the children haveto fit in and adhere to our
(30:20):
expectations in order to belong in this family.
Yeah, belonging should be a dialogue about what it means to
belong. It's not our way or the highway.
We have a lot of grounded believability when it comes to
certain topics, but I don't knowwhat's going on in the school
and I don't know what is going to happen as our kids enter
(30:45):
those formative years. But I want to know and I didn't
tell my parents what was going on.
I'm raising my hand 'cause I have AI have a burning desire
over here. Please family stories, can you
like proactively just like starttelling them about what you
experienced in adolescence and pre adolescence 'cause this
would be a great way to kind of get ahead of it and like name
(31:07):
your fears in through story. Absolutely.
And just share kind of what you understand what I'm saying,
share your experience and kind of how you felt and maybe what
you would do differently or justwhat happened and what it means
to you, right for my family stories episode.
So don't just share what happened.
Share the meaning behind it. And that is, I think a great way
(31:30):
to make the implicit explicit and name this this tension, this
fear that you have about our children.
I mean, I share too, but that really comes up for you about
how our children are going to navigate.
Yeah, inside and outside of thisfamily.
Yeah, either that or I'm going to dress up like Steve Buscemi
did in 30 Rock and show up at high school and be like, hey,
(31:53):
kids. Oh my God, no.
Just talked. Just talk.
Just just talk to our kids. Yeah.
OK. I think it's a lot, it's a lot
of stuff. It's AI feel seen in a well,
like uncomfortable, Yeah, and I feel seen in a there's some work
to do here kind of way me. Too.
(32:14):
Which is good. Which is.
Progress. Which is progress.
Yeah. OK.
All right. Belonging.
I'm grateful that you have always made me feel like I
belong. Right back at you.
Now we have to figure out how tomake sure that the new Fetos
feel that way as well. Indeed.
Great love you goosey love. You goosey.
(32:38):
Hey guys, if you're still here, you're definitely our kind of
person. Thanks for spending this time
with us on The Most Important Thing.
If this episode resonated with you, we'd love for you to follow
us wherever you get your podcasts and share it with
someone else. Building family culture on
purpose.
Welcome to The Most Important Thing.
I'm Danielle DeMarco Neufeld. And I'm Greg Neufeld, and
together we're exploring how ambitious busy families can
build culture at home. Because after all, family is the
most important thing. Hi everybody, and welcome back
to episode 19 on belonging. We are continuing with our
wholehearted parenting manifesto, which I'm sure you
(00:22):
know by now. And the line today is we will
always have permission to be ourselves with each other.
No matter what, you will always belong here.
Belonging is a real tough cookie.
OK. It's like the most important
thing and yet so hard to nail down, I think, and to really
(00:45):
feel right in Maslow's hierarchyof needs, it's the very bottom
of the pyramid. Love and belonging is like the
base need of human, of the humancondition.
Yeah, and there's lots of different types of belonging,
right? Brene, who, you know, she's a
shame researcher, but I think the belonging is inextricably
(01:05):
linked to the shame in the humanexperience.
And so she says we have to belong to ourselves as much as
we need to belong to others. When I read that, I was thinking
about you. And so we've touched upon the
idea that you are a four on the Enneagram, which is defined as
the terminally unique. And like most personality tests,
(01:28):
the Enneagram is not everything.But I do think it's a pretty
informative. Before that I would have called
myself maybe a chameleon. OK, so I agree with the
assessment that I I do feel terminally unique and through my
whole life I have done a lot of intentional work to blend in
wherever my surroundings broughtme.
(01:51):
Interesting. Yeah.
Because you know, in Brene Brown's Atlas of the Heart, she
has this great illustration thatcomes from one of her times
speaking with 8th graders about fitting in versus belonging.
And they gave some beautiful definitions, if I will, if you
don't mind if I go through them and maybe maybe you can talk
(02:12):
about some of them resonating ornot with you.
So the first says belonging is being somewhere where you want
to be and they want you versus fitting in as being somewhere
you want to be, but they don't care one way or another.
That really hits home. Yeah, I I would have never, I
(02:34):
would have thought the two were interchangeable and that
definition just. I don't know if this is hitting
any of you as hard as it's hitting us, but like, that is
high school in a nutshell for me.
Yeah. This whole middle.
School. Elementary school.
Being somewhere you want to be, but they don't care one way or
(02:55):
another. Oh, that is something.
This is a very profoundly wise 13 year old.
I'd said that. Can I give you some of the other
ones? Belonging is being accepted for
you. Fitting in is being accepted for
being like everyone else. Yep.
(03:16):
And then the third one says, if I get to be me, I belong.
If I have to be like you, I fit in.
I think that one is the one thatis most directly applicable to
our family and maybe to all family cultures, which is this
(03:37):
how to have a strong family culture and value system of this
is what it means to be a new Feld.
This is what it means to be partof our family while still making
space for everyone's individual preferences and idiosyncrasies,
and making sure that they know that they will always belong in
(03:58):
this family and they don't need to fit in.
Absolutely. I hope that we're modeling that
for them. I think the trickier 1 is how to
model belonging in the broader sense.
Yeah, but let's stay in the family for a.
Little bit. So if we if we stay within the
(04:19):
family, because I don't know if it's really the trickier one,
because we have really like the first eight episodes of this
podcast have really given us a foundation for creating routines
and rituals that set family culture, family meetings, family
meals, family movement, etcetera, right.
(04:40):
That it really defines what to belong to.
Yes, and making space to for everyone to show up.
And I do think that our childrenreally like being Neufelds right
now. Like Jayden Hunter and I spoke
about this on our walk yesterdayand they Hunter even said, you
know, another thing we could do is we could all take family
walks together. Like they really like being a
(05:02):
part of our family. And so, so far, I think we're
doing OK, but they're going to grow.
And I, I do there's this idea, Iguess it's a young Yan idea as
well called individuation, whichis really separating from your,
from your family, from your parents.
And it is a lifelong process, but obviously it shows up in
(05:25):
adolescence most strongly. And so I think part of this is
trying. We are obviously we have a bunch
of pre adolescence in our family.
We are not quite there yet, but creating this spaciousness for
healthy individuation is something that I would really
like to create practices sooner rather than later.
(05:51):
And so when I was looking in theresearch as far as what that is,
and you know, it really is a continuation of the way that we
are that we parented our toddlers and that we still do
today with with a lot of autonomy.
So, you know, do you want to wear the blue shirt or the red
shirt? Do you want to go to the
bathroom and then brush your teeth or brush your teeth and
then go to the bathroom kind of thing like building just a
(06:13):
continuation of that. Everything from those tiny micro
choices up to, you know, yes, you can go to that party, but
please call me when you get there or please text me when you
get there, Right. And so thinking about, I feel
like there's a lot of literatureout there about how to give
children autonomy zero to three at least I certainly have
(06:37):
experienced have been immersed in that literature.
I don't know how much there really is about 3 to preteen.
Dr. Becky comes to mind as someone who can help you with
skill building, but that still Idon't.
I mean, I love Doctor Becky, butI'm not sure that that still, at
(06:59):
least for me, is giving me enough of a framework for how to
allow them to take steps in individuation and what I'm
supposed to do to support that while still maintaining some
level of authority as the parent.
Yeah. Is the individuation component
and the lack of resources that you speak of, is that something
(07:23):
that is currently showing up right now where you're looking
for something proactively because you're noticing
something maybe in Hunter and even Jade as they spend more
time with friends and pick up idiosyncratic personality
characteristics. I think that's what you pick up.
Absolutely. Yeah.
I just noticed the gap like I, Idon't feel maybe some of our
(07:44):
listeners can help me with some guidance because I love a good
book, right? And I love a good framework
around, you know, let's call it ages 3 to 10.
If I think that there's, you know, Heimgennot and Magda
Gerber and a ton of different books around kind of the
toddler, like zero to three years and how to foster autonomy
(08:05):
and respect for the individual. And then I'm already learning
about things in adolescence. Like Doctor Lisa Damore comes up
as someone who is really focused.
And I think we we talked about her in our fear episode as well
as someone who really is help helping to manage this idea that
kids don't need to be happy all the time, but they do need to
feel anchored. But what's in between?
(08:27):
I think that you, you did mention friendships and you
know, let's call it drop off play dates.
Yeah, I think the concern for meis, and this is definitely some
projection here, I growing up I did one thing with my family and
another thing with my friends. And let's say, you know, we
(08:49):
didn't have a family culture practice the way that we do here
in the Neufeld household. But I could see the culture
stopping as soon as our child hits the playground and then
comes home and acts one way, a chameleon, so to speak.
And isn't upholding the culture and values in order to fit it.
(09:09):
Like that's, that's the worry that I would would have for our
children. OK.
Can you, can you be more specific like from your
experience perhaps? Sure.
So if a friend of one of our children is lying or stealing
or, you know, doing something toget attention and our child
thinks that's pretty cool and they start lying or stealing or
(09:29):
cheating in school to befriend that person.
That doesn't mean that they believe that those things are
necessarily good or in line withtheir values.
But they might overweight the importance of that friendship in
order to gain trust of that person versus sticking within
the guidelines of being noble and, you know, unbothered and
(09:52):
really determined to be their best self in the Newfeld way.
And that's my fear is that they show up at school in one way in
order to gain friends and win friends and influence people.
And then they come home and theyare still active, willing
participants in the Newfeld family culture.
But it doesn't carry over. Where do you think that fear
comes from? From me doing it.
(10:15):
OK, Can you talk a little bit about that fear then 'cause
it's, it's funny, like I'll justtell you that I, I think this
goes back to this like rebel andupholder thing too, that like I,
well, maybe not, I don't know. I can just tell you that that is
not something I think I fell into much as a child.
Sure. So let's just use these two
(10:35):
terms, fitting in and belonging,OK?
Fitting in and belonging feel very similar as a child or felt
very similar as a child to me. Even though now listening to
that definition, I was like, wow, I was not belonging.
I was just fitting in. And the person that was driving
that negative culture in my friend group that I was trying
(10:56):
to follow couldn't have cared less whether or not I was a
participant or not. I cared.
And so I thought that I was belonging at home.
I felt like I was belonging already.
And So what work do I need to doto put in here?
I belong here. I don't belong there.
I need to do the work to belong over there.
That's what I think a lot of children are faced with when
(11:18):
they have to choose between eating lunch alone or eating
lunch with a group of peers thatthey don't necessarily see
themselves as being aligned withsocially.
Like hey, I can I can be a a good person and eat at the
loser's table where I can be a bad person and eat with the cool
(11:38):
kids. That's like really black and
white. Is that really how you felt?
100%. Interesting.
I mean, it's it, it wasn't just how I felt.
It's it's how it was. Yeah.
I guess question for you. So though those kids at the cool
table, do you think that any of them would say that they really
(11:59):
felt that they belonged in high school with their peer group or,
or even in middle school? Or do you think that everybody
I, I don't know. Oh I I I truly think that this
goes back to not feeling like they belonged at home.
Oh. So it's a point of view that I
have no perspective on because Ialways felt like I belonged at
(12:22):
home. But when I hear stories of
entrepreneurs that were shunned by their father, you know, who
had a drinking problem or a gambling problem or, you know,
left the family or had a second family, this idea of chips on
shoulders put chips in pockets, I think coined by Josh Wolf.
It, it really rings true to me. I don't have any experience with
(12:43):
that. That was not me.
Interesting. But I do believe that some of
those stories were mirrors of the kids that I spent time with
at the cool kids table. Yeah, OK.
Yeah, because the second part ofBrene Brown's, you know, 8th
grader post it note illustrationis all about not belonging at
home. And so I'd love to read you some
(13:03):
of these because I think these are, you know, we're actively
making space for family culture right now.
But I do think that these are telling potential blind spots
and something that we should that we could look out for.
So let me let. Me and and by the way, before
you do that, remember that anyone who's not belonging at
home is going to try to find belonging somewhere, right
(13:25):
because. It's a foundational need.
Because it's a foundational need.
And so the fear that I have for our children is that that
becomes attractive just as as much as it was attractive to me.
And that they don't have tools for integrating, for bringing
that back to us and saying, hey,I really think that this is an
(13:47):
interesting perspective on life.And don't tell me that this
person's bad because I want to be their friend, but do tell me
how I can go to sleep at night and uphold the Neufeld family
values while also seeing and exploring this perspective that
this person has on life that is new and interesting and
different and and kind of attractive to me.
(14:10):
And I didn't have that. I had a black and white.
It was like, OK, you can be friends with that person, but
that's a bad kid. Yeah, and I fear that we may
pass that along. Bingo.
I think that the flip side of having such an intentional
family culture is that we may create walls and that, you know,
(14:32):
may look like walls with extended family or other
families in the neighborhood, but it also may look like walls
that our children, when they want to spend time with peers,
feel like they can't come back inside of.
And so I think our work to do and we have time.
Our kids are 7, five and three. We have we have time.
They still look up to us and think everything that we say is
(14:53):
great for the most part. But this is this is kind of the
stuff that I've been, I think beating around the Bush about
now that I'm thinking about someof my worries.
And it's what's rubbing off on our kids elsewhere that they're
bringing into the home that right now we can correct and
they understand. And giving giving them some
space from it allows them to reintegrate, but as they get
(15:15):
older they don't want to correctthose things.
Yeah. I think that we've been a bit
critical around like, oh, you'reat this camp and when you come
home, you need to shake off thatenergy because that energy is
not acceptable in our home, right.
So, yeah, I think that we have some work to do here because we
(15:35):
are very frequently saying things like you need to shake
off that energy from camp because you're hanging around
with kids that are more fill in the blank than you and that's
not how you behave. So you need to come back and be
Hunter and be part of the Neufeld family, right?
And so that's already we're it'slike a we're giving her no space
(16:00):
to integrate things from outside.
And here, on the one hand, we'resaying that we want family as a
democracy and we want to be ableto set the culture as a family
of five individuals. But on the other hand, when our
kids are going out and exploringother energies, let's just say
we are not receptive to it coming back so far.
And I think we need to change that.
(16:21):
Yeah. And in conversations with
friends that have older kids, you know, I've been trying to
put myself in the kids shoes when I'm listening to the parent
talk about some of the some of the firm rules that they put
around topics that I think are were put around me and that I
evaded seamlessly, right. It's so interesting because when
(16:41):
you talk to your friends you putyourself in the kids seat
exactly, but then somehow you become your parent when it's our
kids at home. Totally.
And so I see this as a blind spot and I don't want history to
repeat itself where we have a wonderful family culture and one
of our children, probably one ortwo, not all three in this case.
But I do think that we're at risk of one or two of our kids
(17:04):
for sure to repeat exactly the same behavior that I did.
And more importantly, for us to repeat the same behavior that my
parents did, which was to not ignore it, but almost like act
as if it was a phase or just sayyou need to shake off that
energy or just, you know, try totry to pull me back in when the
(17:25):
school year was over. So some work to do.
Here, absolutely. So what I am hearing is that
there's something here wrapped up in belonging about tolerance,
and I think that we could work on accepting differences while
still maintaining connection. Definitely.
(17:47):
And yeah, I think that that's part of our work to do with our
bridges from this island. To continue the metaphor, 'cause
it's, you know, it's within our community, it's within our
extended family. Because we were talking to a
friend the other day and he saidsomething that really made me
think. And he said, you know, we're so
intentional about creating our family culture that it is
(18:09):
creating my words like knock on effects within our extended
family and, you know, maybe changing, like changing the
boundaries in the way that we that we interact with them.
But a thing that we think about a lot is what are we ultimately
teaching our children about how to tolerate differences if we
(18:31):
kind of keep ourselves in a bubble and don't allow
connection to people that have different values than we do?
And that really hit me because Ithink that, you know, boundaries
are important to keep ourselves safe and connected, but there
are often opportunities to practice tolerance of
(18:53):
differences in other people thatare perfectly safe, differences
that we can accept. And to really, I guess this
comes back to making the implicit explicit again, and to
look for opportunities to talk about differences that we do
observe and and can tolerate andstill feel safe.
Yeah, I've, I've always gone to this like being grateful for the
(19:18):
global society that our kids aregrowing up in where you and I
have access to resources and connections and people and we're
just relatively resourceful ourselves at finding more like
minded folks. Like Hunter going to theater
camp is an amazing exploration for her.
(19:38):
How do I had a broader horizon where didn't necessarily need to
associate with the same 110 kidsfor my entire K through 12
school? Like maybe I would have leaned
into some of those things as opposed to pull pulling back.
Like I definitely pulled back academically.
I definitely pulled back in in extracurriculars.
(20:01):
I definitely tried to play sports that I had no business or
no interest in playing. It's just one of those things.
And like, I just think the worldis so much bigger as opposed to
us having to deal with basicallythe bullying that comes out of
small town politics. Just expand the horizons and go
where it's warm. OK, so how do you make that
(20:22):
actionable though, Like because a lot of people do live in.
I mean, there's Jenny who like gets to live half the year in
Rome, which is amazing and I think a real bonus for her kids,
as we talked about on the team at teammates episode.
But I do think most of us spend 12 months of the year in one
area in community and there's a lot of benefits to community.
(20:45):
But how do so I, I guess what I'm trying to say is like, I
don't know if the right action is to, for us is to kind of
throw the baby out with the bathwater and not lean into
community. But it is I, I don't, I don't
know exactly how. I think we're just going to have
to take it a day at a time and just recognize how to be more
(21:06):
tolerant when our children are coming home with other people's
energy. Honestly, I'm thinking about how
we talk about shaking off other people's energy because we've
always seen that as not the realhunter, let's say, but maybe it
actually is the real hunter whenshe is not with you and me, like
(21:30):
when she is with other people. And we, it would be a great
opportunity or experiment for usto kind of allow more of.
And what do we really mean when we talk about other people's
energy? We're talking about more
theatrical behavior, sometimes more aggressive behavior.
(21:51):
What else? There's just mannerisms and
sayings and tones and intonations.
Yeah, that's that's true. And it's it's a lot of parroting
of other. But I wanna believe that she's
not, that she's navigating, thatshe's finding her way and that
she's experimenting as opposed to this becoming like, I think
you and I are really quick to like that Sounds like name
(22:13):
insert ex friend. It doesn't sound like you and
maybe, you know, our work to do is to be a bit more tolerant of
that as she navigates, not we really operating from a space of
trust and love as opposed to a place of fear, worrying that
she's, you know, not going to uphold our values in some way.
I don't know. I'm I'm, I'm wondering if this
(22:34):
you belong here no matter what is the right vibe like not that
it's the wrong vibe, but is it the right one because the you
needs to be defined a little bitmore.
I don't know, can we talk about what these 8th graders said
about their homes? Because I think that this is
what we really have to luck out for.
(22:54):
So, you know, we talked about belonging versus fitting in, but
then the things that they said are also not belonging at school
is really hard, but it's nothingcompared to what it feels like
when you don't belong at home. And then they give some
examples. Different kids say different
things. Not living up to your parents
expectations. Not being as cool or popular as
(23:15):
your parents want you to be. Not being good at the same
things your parents were good at.
Your parents being embarrassed because you don't have enough
friends or you're not an athleteor a cheerleader.
Your parents not liking who you are and what you like to do when
(23:36):
your parents don't pay attentionto your life.
Those are some really deep wounds.
Really deep wounds. And I think that we we brush up
against those honestly sometimesin our in our drive to be
intentional and create this container that is our family
(23:57):
culture. I do think that we have been
less tolerant of what shapes ourchildren outside of this family.
Whoops. Yeah, I'd agree.
So what can we do? Pause and be silent when they
express things that are clearly not from the Newfeld household.
(24:23):
I like the the saying of be a scientist, not a sports fan.
OK. Where we're not necessarily
rooting for an outcome here, we're here to observe.
And when we have the data that shows that something isn't
working for us and our family, we present that data as opposed
to, you know, it's the same as it's the same as we would with
(24:47):
Maverick. We redirect now and we correct
later, right? Like, we observe and write down
what we're seeing, and then we present our findings in a
discussion in. A curious way.
In a curious way. Yeah, OK.
What I'm thinking of is this framework that I really like of
awareness, acceptance, action. So I think this conversation is
(25:10):
giving me a new level of awareness to kind of how
intolerant of differences we canbe.
And I want to work on acceptancethere.
They say acceptance is the step that typically takes the longest
and I don't want to jump straight to action, I guess like
that's my natural go to. But I think it probably we've
explored some today around why we might want to foster this
(25:34):
strong sense of belonging. I think a lot of it really, I'm
kind of a blank slate. I have to tell you.
Like I, I don't really have thatmany like memories around
belonging in this age. So I, I'm kind of, I'm allowing
you to not allowing, I'm asking you to take the lead.
And I do think that just naturally, because I don't have
a strong feeling on this topic, which is shocking.
(25:56):
I have strong feelings on everything that I do think that
your experiences have really shaped the way that we think
about peers and people outside this home.
Is that fair to say? And so I think we have more
awareness now on where that's coming from and perhaps we can
(26:16):
work to accept it in the sense that like make peace with it, if
you will. And make sure kind of what Jen
was talking about and team teammates the other day of just
like, what is my stuff and what is what my child is actually
presenting. And just make sure that we are
working with the here and now and what is actually being
presented. And that we work on our own
(26:38):
stuff separately, 'cause I do think this is as Hunter is
getting older, she's the oldest and she's the one that getting
older. This is the time where you may
start to have a lot of feelings about how she interacts with the
world and then comes back home to the family.
Yeah, I'm just aware of the relationship between
(27:00):
responsibilities and belonging at home.
I feel like growing up, I didn'thave nearly as many
responsibilities as Hunter does at 7.
I probably didn't have as many at 17 as she does at 7.
And I think that the responsibilities are a Canary in
the coal mine. They're directionally correct in
terms of how well those are getting managed versus the whole
(27:23):
of herself. Do you want to talk about her
responsibilities? Just to be specific for the
audience. Yeah, sure.
So today she's responsible for taking the lead on making
breakfast for her and her brother and sister, for emptying
the dishwasher, for getting dressed, for cleaning up her
room, for making her bed, for supervising her brother and
(27:43):
sister's evening routine of getting ready for bed.
What else? Feeding Winston.
Feeding Winston and and taking alook at the daily checklist just
to make sure that everybody is on top of their tasks.
I'm throwing in a couple of new things as they show up for me
because around her age, maybe a little bit older, I wanted to
(28:07):
have my own money and cash Todayis kind of silly to for a child
to hold onto. Easy to get lost, hard to keep
track of. So I got her a credit card and
it's a easy thing to change the setting in the Robin Hood credit
card app to give her $63 that she has 'cause.
(28:29):
That's what she earned in her pet.
Care business 'cause that's whatshe earned in her pet care
business on that card and I wantto keep giving her these little
responsibilities that show that we trust her, but also that give
us the ability to monitor and make sure that that trust is
deserved, right. So like, I'm a big proponent of
(28:49):
what Uber's doing with their Uber teen accounts.
Like she'll be the first to haveit of her friends.
I just want for our kids to knowthat they belong and that those
responsibilities that they have are not just to us, but to
themselves. Because if we see some of those
going, I do believe that's a sign of a bigger problem.
(29:12):
Absolutely. It is like there are days when
she resists her chores there, There are days when she is
joyful about her chores and she goes about them like Cinderella,
and then there are days where she kicks and screams against
them. They all do.
They all do. I mean, Maverick in particular,
he has like just a few chores todo.
And many times I actually think it's too few because he really
(29:33):
fights against them. And that really says a lot about
what is going on in his brain asopposed to the actual putting
the plates in the dishwasher. Yeah.
So we've talked a lot about belonging and what I'm really
what I'm cautious of is in orderfor it to be true belonging, I
think we might need to be a little bit less strict with our
definitions of what it means to be a part of this family.
(29:58):
Because I do believe that the most important thing about
belonging is that we have to belong to ourselves as much as
we need to belong to others. And so I want us to caution
ourselves against this idea thatwe've created such a strong
culture between the two of us 'cause you and I are very
simpatico that the children haveto fit in and adhere to our
(30:20):
expectations in order to belong in this family.
Yeah, belonging should be a dialogue about what it means to
belong. It's not our way or the highway.
We have a lot of grounded believability when it comes to
certain topics, but I don't knowwhat's going on in the school
and I don't know what is going to happen as our kids enter
(30:45):
those formative years. But I want to know and I didn't
tell my parents what was going on.
I'm raising my hand 'cause I have AI have a burning desire
over here. Please family stories, can you
like proactively just like starttelling them about what you
experienced in adolescence and pre adolescence 'cause this
would be a great way to kind of get ahead of it and like name
(31:07):
your fears in through story. Absolutely.
And just share kind of what you understand what I'm saying,
share your experience and kind of how you felt and maybe what
you would do differently or justwhat happened and what it means
to you, right for my family stories episode.
So don't just share what happened.
Share the meaning behind it. And that is, I think a great way
(31:30):
to make the implicit explicit and name this this tension, this
fear that you have about our children.
I mean, I share too, but that really comes up for you about
how our children are going to navigate.
Yeah, inside and outside of thisfamily.
Yeah, either that or I'm going to dress up like Steve Buscemi
did in 30 Rock and show up at high school and be like, hey,
(31:53):
kids. Oh my God, no.
Just talked. Just talk.
Just just talk to our kids. Yeah.
OK. I think it's a lot, it's a lot
of stuff. It's AI feel seen in a well,
like uncomfortable, Yeah, and I feel seen in a there's some work
to do here kind of way me. Too.
(32:14):
Which is good. Which is.
Progress. Which is progress.
Yeah. OK.
All right. Belonging.
I'm grateful that you have always made me feel like I
belong. Right back at you.
Now we have to figure out how tomake sure that the new Fetos
feel that way as well. Indeed.
Great love you goosey love. You goosey.
(32:38):
Hey guys, if you're still here, you're definitely our kind of
person. Thanks for spending this time
with us on The Most Important Thing.
If this episode resonated with you, we'd love for you to follow
us wherever you get your podcasts and share it with
someone else. Building family culture on
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