Enneagram: Understanding Yourself and Others and What We Get Wrong About People We Love the Most with Katie Whitlock

Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_01 (00:02):
Welcome to the Motherhood Mentor Podcast.
I'm Becca, a somatic healingpractitioner and a holistic life
coach for moms, and this podcastis for you.
You can expect honestconversations and incredible
guests that speak to health,healing, and growth in every
area of my life.
This isn't just strategy forwhat we do, it's important to
community.

(00:22):
I believe we can be wildlyambitious while still holding
ourselves in our humanity as welove combining deep inner
healing with strategic systemsand no nonsense talking about
what this season is really like.
So grab whatever weird healthbeverage you're currently into
and let's get into it.

(00:43):
Welcome to today's episode ofthe Motherhood Mentor Podcast.
Today I have a guest I'm reallyexcited to talk to and a topic
I'm super excited to talk about.
My guest today is KatieWhitlock, and I had the joy of
getting interviewed by her onEnneagram, and I had so much
fun.
And honestly, that podcast hasjust reignited why I love

(01:04):
Enneagram so much.
And I actually just I wastalking to a group yesterday,
and somehow the conversationturned to Enneagram, and it just
it is such a powerful tool, butit's I feel like it's so simple.
So I would love for you tointroduce yourself, Katie, and
let us know like who are you andwhat where did you find
Enneagram?
Like what brought you to theEnneagram?

SPEAKER_00 (01:26):
So my mama brought me to the Enneagram.
Anyone who knows me has heardthis story probably, but it was
probably like 2019-ish.
I was in college and my mom andI are very close.
She put an orange book in myhand.
She said, This is reallyinteresting.
I think you would really likeit.

(01:46):
That book was The Road Back toYou by Suzanne Stabile.
So I read it and I was like, Oh,I'm a two for sure.
And my mom, my mom is a two.
She was like, Me too.
That's great.
And so for the next probablylike three years, we were the
mother-daughter two duo.
And then she found SuzanneStabile's boot camp.

(02:09):
So Suzanne does every year, shedoes like a two and a half day
boot camp.
You just buy a ticket and you goand sit in a big room and learn
from her for two and a halfdays.
And my mom and I went in 2023.
And while I was there, I wascomplaining.
Suzanne said something abouttwos, and I was complaining.
I said, Well, I don't do that.

(02:30):
I'm a two, but I don't do that.
Like, that's too, it wassomething that was too sweet.
Like I felt like was too stickysweet about twos.
And I was like, that's annoying.
I don't do that.
And my mom looked at me and shewas like, I don't think that
you're a two.
I think that you're somethingelse.
And so that night, long storyshort, that night we went back
to the hotel.

(02:51):
We figured out that I was athree, which is what I really
am.
So I've known I was a threesince then.
But the next year, my mom and Iboth signed up for Suzanne's
cohort program, which, if anyoneis interested in doing that,
look it up on our website.
It's beautiful, it's wonderful.
What we did is you apply andthey pick 40 people and you go

(03:14):
and learn from Suzanne for fourtimes in a year.
So about once a quarter, you godown to Dallas and you sit in a
room with her again for two anda half days and you learn.
So we did that.
And then this year I'm doinganother one with her daughter,
Joey Shuey, who whoa, if any ofyou ever get a chance to be in a
room with Joey, that's alsolife-changing.

(03:37):
But I anyway, long story short,I came home.
I have a master's in education.
I student taught 10th gradersfor a year, and then I that
ended, and I said I was nevergonna step foot in high school
ever again because it sucked.
And I was not good at it.
Which for three, I was like, oh,immediately I'm never doing that

(03:58):
again.
Yeah, I was stuck in it for ayear, and now I'm not stuck, I'm
not doing that again.
So I kind of moved in and out ofrestaurants.
I have a lot of like fine diningexperience as well.
But eventually I figured outthat what I really want to do is
teach Enneagram to people.
So now I have my own company.

(04:18):
I run my own business inCincinnati, Ohio, where I'm
located.
And I use it with businesses tohelp like corporate teams.
But my favorite part is personalstuff.
So it's coming on this podcast,it's doing my own podcast.
My favorite thing to do ever isI teach public classes.
So we have like eight-week, likeeight-week series that I'll do,

(04:41):
and people just buy a ticket andthey come.
And it's awesome because that'swhere you really get to talk to
people about things that arevery personal that people kind
of in on a corporate team arenot is not gonna tell you,
right?
Because they're at work andthey're like, I'm not gonna tell
you the deepest, darkest partsof my soul right here.
Yeah, but in the regularclasses, like we do get into

(05:02):
that stuff, and it's a lot offun.
So that's where I see theEnneagram really, really, really
transforming people is thepersonal stuff.
But yeah, I kind of doeverything I can.
Yeah, like you said, it's kindof a bug.
It gets you.
The Enneagram bug gets you.

SPEAKER_01 (05:16):
I well, I feel like it's just so it's so useful and
it's so satisfying because Ifeel like it answers so many of
our deepest questions aboutourselves and other people.
And yesterday the conversationwe were having was specifically
about like marriage and how likeI truly did not understand how
fundamentally different I wasfrom my husband and how

(05:38):
different my husband was fromme.
But understanding that, I wasfinally able to see him, not
through my own biases andperception, but I was able to
actually see him for who he was,and it shifted everything and it
shifted the way that I sawmyself, you know, so self-aware
and yet not self-aware.
I'm curious if people, if peopleare new to Enneagram, or even if

(06:01):
even if they know Enneagram,what how would you describe
Enneagram?
Like what is like what isactually the Enneagram?

SPEAKER_00 (06:08):
So, my little line that I say at the beginning of
every class, the Enneagram is adynamic model of the human
personality, and all of thosewords are important.
So, dynamic is important becauseit allows you to move within
your personality type.
It is a dynamic model of thehuman personality.
What it does, it details ninedifferent core motivations

(06:30):
behind human behavior.
And basically, the theory of theEnneagram or like the thesis of
the whole thing is that thereare nine different ways to
experience life and to come atlife and to interact with life,
right?
And depending on what Enneagramnumber you are, that's telling
people which motivation youhave, right?

(06:51):
So when I say, if you speakEnneagram, if I say I'm a three,
you know that I'm telling youwhich motivation my personality
is based off of, which foranyone who doesn't know, threes
want to be valuable at alltimes.
They want to be valuable, theywant to bring value, they want
other people to be valuable.

(07:12):
But there are nine, there arenine of those core motivations,
right?
So when we find your Enneagramnumber, what we're really doing
is we're finding out whichmotivation your kind of entire
personality is built off of.
And people don't like thatbecause they feel like it puts
them in a box.
Yeah.
Like, oh, you're a four, and nowI know everything about you,

(07:33):
right?
People really, really, reallydon't like that.
What you learn when you do theEnneagram, though, is that you
are already in a box.
Whether you believe it or not,you are already in a box.
The Enneagram and the dynamicpart of it teaches is trying to
teach you how to get out of it,right?
And I've had so many people whosay, you know, I've I've done a

(07:58):
lot of other personality models,I've done therapy for years,
I've done all these things, andI feel like I didn't get to the
bottom of me until I knew theInneegrant.
Like that was that was the onlything that ever really not
helped.
Because I don't want to saytherapy doesn't help, obviously,
that's not true.
But just to give language towhat people are experiencing is

(08:19):
it's a beautiful, beautiful toolfor that.

SPEAKER_01 (08:22):
And that language I think is so important.
It's important individuallybecause language is so
fundamental in healing orchanging anything.
One of the examples, and I don'tremember where I first heard
this, but it's like if you gointo the doctor and your arm is
broken, but you can't move yourother arm and your your mouth is
duct taped and you have no wayto communicate what's going on,

(08:43):
how do they know?
How do they know what's goingon?
And you don't, you can't evenexpress that.
But even deeper than that, too,I think of our relationships and
I think of our even just ourrelationships to work.
If you don't have language,you're gonna be constantly in
miscommunication and you'regonna be constantly missing

(09:04):
connection with other peoplebecause the language I'm
speaking is very different thanthe language my husband speaks,
and we might be trying ourhardest to communicate, yeah,
but we're not speaking eachother's language, and until we
understood that it was like wewere just talking at a wall, and
it's like, okay, we could befabulous communicators, but if

(09:25):
I'm communicating in a differentlanguage than you, it doesn't
matter how good you're exactlycommunicating.
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (09:30):
What number is your husband?
He's an eight.
He's an eight.
Yeah, yeah, that's prettydifferent.

SPEAKER_01 (09:36):
Yeah, that's it's it's like you're coming, our
especially like our conflictstyles and stuff like that, like
they they tend to clash until weboth understood them, until we
both understood what's happeningin those conflicts and what
we're both trying to accomplish.
It was like it was a constantbattle between two different
needs trying to be met in twodifferent ways.

(09:57):
I'm curious for you, what whatpart of the Enneagram after
finding your type feels mostpowerful?
So, like, is there somethingspecific you learned about you
or like intelligence centers, orthere's so many different
aspects to these models ofEnneagram?
I love the paths.
Like the paths is one of myfavorite parts lately of the

(10:19):
Enneagram model.
I'm curious for you if you haveone.

SPEAKER_00 (10:23):
So I think that I was raised on this in the
Enneagram world.
So this is from directly fromSuzanne and Joey, and I fully
agree with them.
I think if you do any work withEnneagram, if you only pick up
one thing, you need to know whatyour repressed center is.
And that's you get that fromfiguring out what stance you're
in.
So for anyone who doesn't know,the stances in the Ennegram is

(10:47):
kind of your social style, it'show you get what you want.
Your Ennegram number tells youwhat you want, and then your
stance tells you how you get it,right?
So four, five, and nine.
The Enneagram numbers four,five, and nine.
They are in the withdrawnstance.
So depending on what they want,usually they kind of have to
withdraw to get it.
So if you are in a relationshipwith one of those numbers,

(11:08):
you'll kind of know what I mean.
I have a fiance who's a nine.
When he needs to figuresomething out, or he just feels
a little overwhelmed, or heneeds whatever, you can kind of
see him go into himself a littlebit, right?
Spend some time with himself.
One, twos, and sixes.
I'll go back.
Four, fives, and nines, theirrepressed center is doing.

(11:30):
So four, fives, and nines, Ithink if you only ever pick up
one thing, you need to know thatyou are repressed and doing.
So you do what you want to do,you do what you like to do, you
struggle with timelines, youstruggle with prioritization,
all of those things, right?
One, two, and six, my responsivenumbers.
These numbers are just what itsounds like.

(11:51):
They're responsive.
So they feel like they strugglewith the words.
I should do this, I I peoplewould do this, people ought to
do this, right?
They feel a lot of loyalty andobligation to people or to
situations.
They might want to do something,but then someone like a two,
someone has a bad feeling infront of you, and now that's

(12:12):
what we're doing, right?
All those numbers are thinkingrepressed.
And when I mean thinking, Idon't mean mental energy.
All these numbers have a lot ofmental energy, but thinking is
like logic and its boundaries,is the big one.
So one, twos, and sixes really,really struggle with objectively
evaluating themselves and theirrole in people's lives, and

(12:34):
evaluating other people andthose people's roles in their
life, right?
And then three, seven, andeight, that's me.
We're in the independent stance.
So we have pretty egregiousself-confidence, and we think
that there's very little thatcould happen to us that would
really, really knock us down.
Surprise, we're feelingrepressed.

(12:56):
So the reason I bring that up isknowing that like I am a
charismatic person.
I can be in front of a room andcontrol it pretty well.
I never would have thought I'mfeeling repressed, but I am like
watching people who are notfeeling repressed, the way that

(13:17):
they can connect with people andthe way that they value
connection with other people isnot something that I experience.
And it is detrimental in a lotof ways.
And that I think that's thething that just every day over
and over and over again, I seeit.
Like a lot of Enneagram is funand it's theory, and it's really

(13:37):
good to know, and it helps you.
My repress center, I see everyevery time I'm interacting with
somebody, like all the time,right?
And knowing that has helped mebe better at my job, have better
relationships with people, allthese things, right?

SPEAKER_01 (13:56):
So, in knowing that, once you know that, what did
what did that empower you orenable you to do differently?
Like, do you feel like how didyou develop that emotional?
If you're repressed emotionally,how have you developed that or
what does that look like in yourlife?

SPEAKER_00 (14:15):
So I think I had to watch other people who were not
feeling repressed.
So I had to look at the peoplein my life who were not three,
sevens, or eights and say, whatare they doing with people that
I'm not doing?
One of the things that they weredoing is that they were not
trying to solve people'sproblems.
Some of them were, but for maybedifferent reasons, right?
But the big thing was that theycould listen to somebody.

(14:40):
It sounds so silly because it'sso small, but like look that
person in the eye and just likenod and say, Oh, that really
sucks.
Without maybe then they wouldtry to solve the problem.
But there was this moment whenthey talk to people that was
just all connection, and Ididn't, I wasn't doing that with

(15:02):
people.
I just immediately was like,Well, have you tried this?
What about this?
What about like there was no I'mreally sorry, that really sounds
like it sucks, right?
So now, like just the other day,I was teaching a class and I had
a woman pull me asideafterwards, and she started by
saying, You know, I have afriend who's a three, I need you

(15:25):
to, I need to tell you about herbecause it's really, it's really
bothering me.
And she told me this wholestory, and she was emotional.
And I she I kept waiting for herfor like the question that she
had, but there really was noquestion.
She really just needed me to sitthere and nod and listen.
And if I did not know I wasfeeling repressed, I would have

(15:45):
sat there and I would havegotten a little impatient
because I'm like, what are youasking me?
Right?
Even as she's crying, I'd belike, Okay, what are we doing?
I would have been looking forsomething to do, I would have
been looking for a problem tosolve.
And what it has taught me isthat what I did was just I
reached across the table and Iheld her hand and I said, That

(16:06):
really sucks.
I'm really sorry.
And I handed her a tissue, andthat's all she needed.
Like, that's all she needed.

SPEAKER_01 (16:12):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (16:13):
If I had tried to, you know, push her into doing
something or whatever I wouldhave done normally, like I would
have like I think I would havelost her trust a little bit, you
know.
And it's just little, it'sliterally little things like
that.
It's looking people in the eye,it's grabbing their hand, it's

(16:33):
doing these things that I justnever did before because I
didn't value them or like seethe value they could bring to my
life, right?

SPEAKER_01 (16:42):
Yeah.
I'm curious, both personally andprofessionally.
So those who are feelingsrepressed, do they have a hard
time feeling their own feelings?
Because I think that's somethingthat I've definitely experienced
and witnessed.
And as a two, I think this isone of those things.
This is one of the reasons why Icame to Enneagram, is I started
getting these clients, and like,what do you mean you don't have

(17:04):
feelings?
Yeah, no, literally.
Yeah.
That was the only emotion.
Like anytime we would talk aboutfeelings, and especially like
some of what I do is somaticwork.
So it's literally like feelingyour feelings in your body, and

(17:25):
she's like, What do you mean?
And I'm like, I wish I couldrepress my feelings a little bit
more.

SPEAKER_00 (17:32):
Yeah, one of the this is so funny.
I'm glad you said feel yourfeelings because one of the
things I've struggled for sotwo, sixes, and fours are big
feelers.

SPEAKER_01 (17:42):
Yes, we are.

SPEAKER_00 (17:44):
And I have struggled for so long to be able to
explain to people what that feltlike.
Yeah, because I am not a two,six or four and I do not feel my
feelings, right?
So I would have such a hard timetelling when I'm trying to teach
people and they're trying tofigure out if they're a two, six
or four.
Like, I have such a hard timefiguring out what to say.

(18:04):
And eventually I talk to enoughtwo sixes and fours that what I
know to say now is like, do youliterally physically feel your
feelings?
And they're like, oh, duh, ofcourse.
And I'm like, yeah, that's neverhappened to me in my life.
Like, I don't know what thatmeans.
I'm glad you do, but I don'tknow what that means, right?
Because they're very, verydisconnected.

(18:26):
Disconnected.

SPEAKER_01 (18:27):
Yeah.
I love hearing too the evolutionbecause I do think this is one
of the most powerful parts ofthe Enneagram, is that dynamic
movement piece is it's not justsaying this is how you are, and
now you get to use it as anexcuse for yourself or blame
other people for it.
There's a personalresponsibility.
And I think it's it will offendyou.

(18:51):
Like when you find your type,like my feelings were hurt.
Yeah, oh yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But like I was a little like,oh, I I don't like this.
And I joke with people thatthat's often that's how you know
what your type is, is you'll bereading through the types and
you'll have this like ickyfeeling when you read about that
type.

(19:12):
That that's somewhat a goodsignal for me.
What do you feel like whenyou're working with people
finding their types?
What are some of the signalsthat they're spot on?
Like, is it a felt sense?
Is it what are some of the likecommon ways that help them find
their type?

SPEAKER_00 (19:29):
So I would have I'll say two things.
My biggest one is what you justsaid is that when you read it,
you feel bad.
I'll say.
I think different numbers havedifferent levels of bad.
Like you say, your feelings gothurt.
I was really embarrassed.
I was like, I didn't know peoplehave people known this about me
the entire time.
You know what I mean?
Like, have other people beenreading this about it's a very

(19:51):
three response.
But like, have you all reallyknown this about me the entire
time?
And I'm just the only one whodidn't know.
There's that there can be likean overwhelming sense of feeling
vulnerable, right?
As well.
So depending on who you are, youmight have a different reaction.
But some level of this sucks,right?

(20:12):
I don't want to keep readingthis page.
I don't like it.
I don't like it, exactly.
The other side of that, oh, Ijust lost my train of thought.
The other one I'll say when I amlistening to people to see if
they're really that type,because a lot of what happens is

(20:32):
people see a number.
Oh, I remembered.
I'll start over.
The one thing, the other thingI'll say is that if you are
reading something, a descriptionof a number, and it feels so
normal and like this is notreal.
Everybody does this.
That that might be an indicationof your type.

(20:53):
Like that's your type.
You just think everybody doesthat because you do that.
Like, I have a lot of sixes,sixes five struggle with typing
themselves, anyways.
But a lot of sixes don't land onsix because they read
descriptions of sixes and theysay everybody does that.
Like, that's this is you know, Ihave to find something that

(21:15):
feels a little more unique tome.
So if you're reading somethingand it kind of feels like does a
fish recognize the water itswims in, right?
Like, that's also another clue.

SPEAKER_01 (21:26):
Yeah, like I was like, what do you mean people
other people aren't anticipatingmy needs?
Yes, exactly.
Right.
Like that that revolution alonechanged my 20s, right?
Fundamentally changed my 20s.
What do you mean my husbandisn't built to anticipate and
meet my needs?
Yes, like that's that's not likean internal drive that other

(21:49):
people don't have.
Yeah, what do you mean you canjust ignore other people's
emotions?
They come at me like a batteringram.
Like, right, yes, that's notsomething that happens to
everyone, but truly, I don'tthink we were ever taught human
psychology and like how humansthink and feel and what drives
us, and how just fundamentallydifferent all of us uniquely

(22:11):
are, and how much dynamic rangewe can have within our own
personal selves.

SPEAKER_00 (22:16):
Yeah, you are this is another thing that I think
people struggle with when theyfirst start learning the
Enneagram.
They struggle with the feelinglike it puts people in a box,
and they struggle with likereally, really understanding how
deep this is in people, and no,people are people are not the

(22:39):
same as you.
It's not that your husband likehas that hardwiring, he's just
ignoring it, and it's likeeasier for him to ignore, right?
He literally is not hardwired tothink about people's feelings
like you are.
Doesn't have it in him.
He can train it.
I also don't want people to hearlike you can't teach yourself
things, right?
But you, Rebecca, you've neverhad to teach yourself how to sit

(23:00):
in front of somebody and likelook them in the eyes and be
like, that sucks.
I'm sorry, right?

SPEAKER_01 (23:04):
No, I've had to train myself to sit in front of
someone and not feel theirfeelings and right, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 (23:09):
Right.
Like we're doing oppositethings.

SPEAKER_01 (23:12):
But I love that you brought that because I think
that's what's so powerful isthat you start understanding
where your unique wiring is andwhere you have weaknesses and
where you have strengths.
One, so you can amplify thosestrengths and use it, but also
so that you can witness whereare my Achilles' heels?
Where is the shadow and the darkparts of me that I really could

(23:34):
bring some more health to?
Like now that I know, forexample, I love that I'm married
to an eight, and now I can seethere is so much that is
hardwired in him that Iabsolutely needed to learn to
build as a skill.
Like there have been times in mylife where I literally would, I
remember once I was textingsomeone, there was like this

(23:55):
huge big boundaries conversationhappening.
And I remember I was likeoverthinking the shit out of
this like conversation.
And all of a sudden I was like,what would Jay do?
Like, what would my Yeah, no,literally he wouldn't even be
worried about it because I'm soworried about what she like how
they're gonna perceive this, howthey're gonna feel it.
I was like, he would literallyjust say what he needs to say,
and then he would leave hisphone alone and forget that they

(24:17):
had feelings about it and not ina rude way, in a very healthy
way.
And I have learned so much abouthealthy boundaries and healthy
leadership and like honestly,healthy emotional intelligence
from him.
Whereas I think when I was moremature and young, I would have
called him emotionally immature,not because he was, but because

(24:40):
his healthy emotional maturitywas very different than my
emotional maturity.

SPEAKER_00 (24:45):
So yes, yes, yeah.
We all have different paths.
Yeah, the biggest one of the oneof the biggest things I've
learned from Ennegram is youknow, self-help and advice
books, they're great.
I know some people hate them.
I'm a three, I love them, Ithink they're great.
But most there is a I love someof them.
There is a reason why, you know,I'll use the number one and nine

(25:10):
actually really hit you wherelike hit you in your heart.
It's because those people arenot experiencing the things that
you're experiencing.
If if they're your same number,they might be able to talk to
things in you, very deep in you,without knowing Enneagram,
without knowing the language ofit.
But if they're not your number,they're gonna be telling you

(25:30):
things that you don't need tohear, right?
Your husband does not need tohear or put up more boundaries.
That's your thing to hear.
You don't need to hear, you needto care about people's emotions
more.
He needs to hear that, right?
Like it's it's so different.
It's so, so different.
We all need to pick up differentthings.

SPEAKER_01 (25:49):
Yeah.
Well, and even in that personalgrowth world, this is one of
like the bones I have to pickwith it.
Is we're what I have witnessedin clients and even in myself,
mostly we are drawn to we aredrawn to the things that we
already like and are good at.
We tend to avoid the things thatmake us feel uncomfortable, that

(26:11):
make us squirm, that make us go,this is bullshit.
Don't tell me any more about it.
Yeah.
What I love about Enneagram isit like draws you in with your
like your language and like, oh,it gets me.
I'm understood.
And then it says, okay, now thatyou're here, I've got some
things to tell you.
I've got the thing.

(26:31):
There's there's some thingsyou're gonna have to learn that
like it's not comfortable, feelgood healing.
It's not always this personalgrowth.
Oh, this always works just likethis.
It's like, oh no, no, no, you'regonna have to get skin in the
game and realize like there'ssome stuff that you can do
differently that you're gonnahave to own.
And I think people tend toconsciously or unconsciously

(26:56):
avoid that.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (26:58):
I have, I think one of the hardest parts for me and
what I've seen in other peopleis there will be, if you get
deep enough into the Enneagram,there will be a point where it
challenges something about yourworldview that you think is just
fundamental to being a humanbeing.
Like, I I'll give my example andthen I'll give my fiance's

(27:22):
example.
Like, I think it is fundamental,and I assume that everyone wants
this, and if they don't, theyneed to, you know, do something
to where they can get back toit.
That like everybody wants to beimproving, you know, and people
want to be better and go forwardand do all these things.
And to me, that feels good andright and nice, right?

(27:48):
That is a way that we should be.
And what the Denny Graham hastaught me is that that that
comes from my personality.
I'm not even saying whether it'sgood or bad or not, but it is
not coming from like my soul,it's coming from my threeness.
My fiance is a nine.

(28:08):
He thinks it is fundamental toour experience as humans to like
do your best to understand wheresomeone else is coming from,
right?
Always, always do your best,listen to people, think about
what they're saying, all thesethings.
And it's not whether that's goodor bad.
My point is he thinks thatbecause he's a nine, right?

(28:29):
So to realize to realize thatsome of what you hold so near
and dear as this is part of me.
And this is like a bigger theoryconversation about the Enneagram
anyway, but to realize that itcomes because you are this
number, right?
That feels a little weird forme.

(28:49):
That feels uncomfortable, Ithink, for people to confront.
Like it has deep roots in you inways that you don't know it
does, right?

SPEAKER_01 (28:58):
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
I'm curious.
I want to hear like yourperspectives on the different
types.
But I wonder, instead of justgoing through like the
stereotypical, like, here's thenine types, I wonder like if
there's a specific thing of likewhat's most misunderstood, or

(29:19):
like what do you fundamentallysee that type struggling with or
wanting, or even you talkedearlier about like their
stances.
Yeah.
So I wonder if we can go throughthe types, but I I'm not a broad
question, but like no, what viewand what lens would you want to
go through the types with?

SPEAKER_00 (29:37):
That we could do that.
Like, what's miss most mostmisunderstood about them?
Yeah.
So interestingly, I don't knowwhen it's coming out, if it'll
be out by the time this is out.
Jeff Cook and I are doing aseries right now where we're
talking gender in the Negram andlike how like there's some
there's some numbers that menlisten to and they're like,

(29:58):
that's not me, and it is.
Right.
So, so what's wrong there?
And then there's some numbersthat women listen to, right?
Like eight.
Sometimes they're like, I don'twant to be that.
I don't want to be just angryall the time.
That's bad.
Like, right?

unknown (30:10):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (30:11):
On these things.
So I think there are a lot ofthings there misunderstood about
numbers.
This is fun.
Okay, let's go through them.
I'm gonna start at the end.
I'm gonna start with nines.
I love it.
Okay.
Hmm, what's most misunderstoodabout nines?
I think if you are not in arelationship with a nine, so
like I said, my fiance and mysister are both nines.

(30:34):
So I think I think peopleunderestimate how complex nines
are and how much they thinkabout things.
Because nines seem like prettysimple people, and they are on
the surface, like they're easyto get along with, they're good
friends, they're so easygoing,they'll agree with anything you

(30:55):
say, whatever.
But there is this profound senseof like confusion and about who
I am and where I am in the worldand my purpose here, and nines
rely so much on their ability tothink things through.

(31:17):
There's this whole likeobjective complex part to nines
that I don't think people seeunless you are in a relationship
with a nine.
So I think people underestimatenines.
Eights, I think, are the mostmisunderstood number on the
entire Enneagram.

SPEAKER_01 (31:31):
I would agree.

SPEAKER_00 (31:34):
I used to be scared of eights, and now they are my
favorite number to be around.
I love eights.
Ever.
Ever.
Out of anybody, I like beingaround eights.
People react badly to eightsbecause we have a bad because of
us, because we have a badrelationship with ourselves, and
we say we assume that the eighthas expectations of us that we

(31:56):
are not meeting, and that is nottrue.
If if it is, they're not mad atyou, they just have moved on,
right?
They're not thinking about you.
That's the bit they're eightsare not thinking about you in
the way you think they are, andpeople can hear that all they
want, but until you really likeunderstand and get and get that

(32:19):
and start acting like thataround eights, eights are going
to continue to not like you verymuch, right?
AIDS like eights like when theirpower is met with power.
So if an eight walks in a roomand you feel the natural
inclination to shrink down or tolike start to prove yourself or
like react to them in any way,eights don't they really want to

(32:41):
be reactive, the strongestbullshit meter?

SPEAKER_01 (32:44):
They do, and what's so refreshing is they feel no
need to fix your bullshit.
No, they'll be like thatperson's crazy.
Yeah, there's literally which isinfuriating when you're married
to that and I want him to fix mybullshit and his bullshit.
Yes, and I'm just like, whywon't you be codependent with
me?
Come on, come on, eights arelike, do not try to be

(33:05):
codependent with me.

unknown (33:06):
It's great.

SPEAKER_00 (33:08):
I so we one of the things Joey Shuey taught me was
half the numbers are judgingnumbers and half the numbers are
dismissing numbers.
And all that means is if ifsomething happens, half the
numbers will judge you and halfthe numbers will dismiss you,
right?
And eights are dismissers, andthey don't think about you after
that, they're not judging youfrom afar, they're really not.

(33:29):
Yeah, you know, they're really,really not.
If you have an eight in yourlife that you feel like judges
you all the time, one, it'sprobably you.
Two, if it's not you, thatperson probably isn't an eight.
They're probably a six orsomething different, right?
They really a true eight doesnot care about you in the way
that you think they do.

(33:50):
That's the biggest one.
Sevens sevens, I think sevensget the characteristics, sevens
get the stereotype of beingpartygoers and like fun.
So, what I would say aboutsevens is that a sevens
definition of fun can bedifferent depending on the seven
you ask.

(34:10):
One of my very dear friends is aseven, and what he'll say is
like laying in bed with hisfiance reading a book, and
there's like ocean sounds onAlexa or whatever.
He's like, that's fun, right?
He's not a big partier, not likea big extrovert, not a big
extrovert.
He likes to be at home, he likesto be in his you know, little

(34:30):
man cave playing video games,but he is a seven through and
through.
So, what fun is can bedifferent.
Sevens can be introverts.
I see a lot of male sevensthinking that they're nines
because they're very laid backin a way that seven descriptions

(34:51):
don't normally talk aboutsevens.
So that's what I would say isthere's this softness, I think,
to some sevens that people don'ttalk about, and it makes people
mistype.
I'm kind of thinking about likewhat makes people mistype in my
head.
Sixes, I think every I thinkvery recently we've started

(35:12):
talking correctly about sixes.
I think for a long time peopledid not talk about sixes
correctly.
The whole phobic versuscounterphobic.
People used to say sixes arebuilt off of fear and anxiety.
They don't know that, but theyare.
And it is a sense of I want allthe facts, but I can't trust

(35:32):
what I think about the facts.
I need to go and read the thekind of the subjective view of
the room.
Like people's emotions make mefeel safe, and people's support
makes me feel safe versus justlike the logic of what's going
on here, right?
So sixes, I think, mistypedbecause they have bad
descriptions.
Sixes.

(35:52):
What do I think is misunderstoodabout sixes?
I think people underestimate howconfident a six can seem.
And they're looking for peoplewho are just afraid and like
cowering in the corner all thetime as sixes.

(36:13):
And most sixes I know comeacross as pretty confident
people, very confident.
I would be very confident, veryconfident, and they would tell
you I'm very confident, right?

SPEAKER_01 (36:24):
I had I would say, I would say, even in like coaching
containers, they come off veryconfident.

SPEAKER_00 (36:30):
Very yeah, very that's why a lot of them think
they're eights.

SPEAKER_01 (36:33):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (36:34):
I had a I met a coach once and we were talking,
and I was I was kind of talkingabout this, and she's like, Oh,
all the six, she's like, I don'tthink that's true.
I think they're those peopleyou're talking about are eights.
Like all the sixes I know arereally what's the word I'm
looking for, like really timid,and like don't speak up.
And I'm like, you don't, you aremistyping people.

(36:54):
That's if you don't know a sixthat's really confident, you
don't know sixes very well.

SPEAKER_01 (36:59):
That's not at all my experience with sixes, right?
And I think there's a lot ofthat anxiety, but it doesn't
come across as cowering, it'sjust that they're constantly
thinking through every scenario,every angle, every way that they
could do things, every likethere's that it's like the
internal, but it's I don't,yeah, they come across very

(37:20):
confident.

SPEAKER_00 (37:20):
And I don't, I think I know a lot of sixes who don't
know that they do that.
Yeah.
Like it's very, I was talkingearlier about the the does a
fish recognize the water itswims in.
Like sixes out of everybody arethe people who say, doesn't
everybody do that?
No, no, they do not, right?

(37:41):
So that's what I would say aboutsixes.
I think people have a very, veryshallow view of sixes, and I
think we're missing a lot ofsixes.
Fives, my daddy's a five, so Ilove fives, and I have a dear
friend who's a five.
What do I think is misunderstoodabout fives?
I think people don't understandhow a five shows you affection.

(38:05):
So I think people get inrelationships with a five and
then they get mad at the fivefor not being able to meet them
emotionally, and it's becausethey don't know how deep a five
is kind of hidden in themselves,and they also don't know what an
affection from a five lookslike.

(38:26):
Affection from a five looks likethem giving you knowledge,
preparing you for something.
Like my dad, I know he caresabout me because he sends me
stuff about my business all thetime.
He's like, You should updatethis, you should update your
LinkedIn profile.
I talk to this person about yourbusiness here.
You should go talk to them.
Like, but it's giving meinformation, right?
It's all that it's likebolstering me, right?

(38:50):
So I think people, I thinkpeople expect more from a five
than what they can really giveyou, and that's not really fair.
Do you have any fives in yourlife?
Do you know?

SPEAKER_01 (39:01):
I do, and I've only had one five client.
It's it's the only type thatI've only had like one.

SPEAKER_00 (39:08):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (39:09):
And which actually makes a lot of sense because I
guess fives would be very drawnto no, they're probably
listening to the podcast, butthey're not like signing up to
go talk to somebody about it.
And I do think that like therewere the season when that five
when I worked with that five, Iwas more working on like mindset
cognitive informationalcoaching, but I think they're

(39:31):
one of the first people who likeasked me statistics.
I was like, and like timelines.
I was like, you don't want totalk about your feelings on the
interest call because you wantto talk about like how long will
this take?
How many people have you workedwith?
I was like, you want data fromme?
Yeah, yes, they do.
It was the first and only personwho's ever asked me for like

(39:52):
data.
But I do have fives in my life,and I feel like they are the
people that I wish I couldunderstand deeper and more.
And I feel like there's not alot of time where like we're in
a context where that wouldprobably even happen.
So, like, I don't think it meananything, but I do think it's
the type on the Enneagram, bothpersonally and professionally,

(40:15):
that I want to understand moreand deeper, so that I can like
see them and know them in a waythat I feel like I've I've
learned to do with the othertypes.
And I feel like the very natureof a five makes that a little
bit harder.
Yes.

SPEAKER_00 (40:32):
Yeah.
Fives just so fives strugglewith greed, that's their vice or
their sin.
Every number has a sin, which isa very biblical sounding word.
It just means like a thing thatkeeps you from yourself.
Yeah.
And fives, we talk about greedbecause fives hoard themselves.
They hoard time, they hoardtheir privacy, they hoard their

(40:53):
feelings about things.
And it feels, I won't go too farinto it, but it feels like it's
because they won't get it back.
Yeah.
Right?
They feel like if they give uptheir time, they're not going to
give it back.
And they give up their privacy.
It's a limited resource.

SPEAKER_01 (41:07):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (41:07):
So fives will give you a lot of stuff, but they
won't give you themselves in inlarge quantities.
And I feel like people say theyget that and then they don't,
and then they get mad at likethey're five people anyway, you
know.
Yeah.
Which is okay, because we allnone of the rest of us really

(41:27):
struggle with that.
We don't get it.
Yeah.
But a five meeting you halfwaymight not look like halfway, but
it's up to you to realize it ishalf.
They had to come from so farinside of themselves that it is
halfway.
Right?
Is what I would say.

SPEAKER_01 (41:46):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (41:47):
Fours.
I love fours.
I love a healthy four.

SPEAKER_01 (41:54):
I mean, let's be honest, all types that they're
unhealthy, pretty great.

SPEAKER_00 (41:58):
Yeah, it kind of suck.

SPEAKER_01 (41:59):
Yeah.
They kind of suck.
Like, I think people romanticizecertain types, and I'm like, oh,
have you ever had like a parentor a sibling or a spouse who's
an unhealthy?
Like twos, for example, peopleare like, oh, twos are so great.
And I was like, have you everknown an unhealthy two?
No.
We are yes.

SPEAKER_00 (42:16):
The the biggest, like this is a crazy way to say
it, but the biggest likeantagonist in my life right now,
not really about me, but justthat I know and I know her life
and I know what's going on.
She's an unhealthy too.
Yeah.
And she, it's drama, y'all.
It's bad.
It's it's drama.
It gets I say, I think whypeople do that.

(42:37):
I think some numbers whenthey're unhealthy, they get all
over everybody.
And some numbers when they'reunhealthy, they don't.
Like a nine, an unhealthy nineis detrimental to the nine.
And it's maybe detrimental ifthat nine is your parent who's
supposed to be taking care ofyou, right?
But just like your friend, youmight not notice your nine
friend like imploding, you know.

(42:59):
You will notice your one friendimploding or your eight friend,
right?
There will be your your four,right?
Like there will be signs.

SPEAKER_02 (43:09):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (43:10):
So, but fours, what I say.
One, I think they make some ofthe best podcast guests because
you can just immediately askthem any question and they will
answer it truthfully.
So I think they're awesome.
Fours, I think I'm gonna speakfor my personal experience with

(43:32):
a lot of fours.
Yeah, what I have learned withfours sometimes, and I don't I
don't know if fours know they dothis.
Sometimes they'll say somethingbecause fours are so focused on
what's different and they wantto they want to plumb the depths
of things, they will say thingsin a tone and a way that no one

(43:52):
else would say it.
And it sounds like they'retrying to pick a fight with you,
right?
Or they're or they're trying topoint out something about you
that's like pointed, they justreally want to talk about it.
And so I and I see other peoplereacting badly to that and
assuming that the four is tryingto like hurt your feelings or

(44:13):
get one over on you, and theyjust want to talk.
And so what I have learned isthat when fours, this is more of
an unhealthy four thing, butwhen when someone who's kind of
an unhealthy four talks to me, Ijust react to what they've said,
not how they've said it, youknow, and then I end up having
lovely conversations with thesepeople because they're really

(44:35):
good conversationalists and wantto talk about things.
I think also people think foursare dramatic and they're not in
my head.
The definition dramatic is likemaking stuff up, right?
That's just what I'll say.
The definition I'm going off ofis, and fours are not making

(44:55):
anything up.
No, they just are honest abouthow sad they are, right?
Or about how happy they are.
The rest of us also get thatsad, we just don't really admit.

SPEAKER_01 (45:08):
I think they're the most in their feelings, in my
experience.

SPEAKER_00 (45:11):
Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_01 (45:12):
Like the most in their, like, I mean, I think
sadness in Inside Out.
Have you seen Inside Out?
Like she like she is theemotion.
I think fours, what I'vewitnessed is like they have such
a hard time knowing that theyare not their emotions and like

(45:34):
having a separateness.
And I like I agree.
I don't I don't think they'redramatic.
I think if anything, peopleunderestimate how much energy
and capacity and skill andmaturity a healthy four takes to
not be just constantly drownedby their own emotions.
Yes, yes, and other people'semotions, but I think mostly

(45:54):
their own emotions.

SPEAKER_00 (45:55):
Yeah, I agree for sure.
I think people, I guess what I'mhearing in both this four and
five is like you have no ideawhat these people are going
through.
Yeah, I mean, you have no idea,and I only mean that neutrally,
like you don't know, you don'tknow how deep it goes in these
people, yeah.
And so what looks like to youthem not trying very hard might

(46:16):
be them trying really hard,right?
You just fives are really,really deep in their head, and
fours are really, really deep intheir heart.
So it takes a lot to even beable to poke your eyes out, you
know, of the surface of thosethings.
Yeah.
Threes.
Well, I can talk about this one.

(46:37):
I think what people don't don'tunderstand about threes is that
we are not trying to lie to you.
We don't think one, we don'tthink we're lying about who we
are.
That's the big thing, actually.
We don't think we're lying.
You look at us and you seesomeone who's pretty obviously
pretending to be a certain way,or maybe that's because I know

(46:58):
Enneagram now, but someone who'slike only presenting their good
stuff, someone who's onlyfocusing on the things they're
good at, only focusing on howthey can bring value.
And we we don't know that we'reignoring all the other parts of
us.
We don't know that there areother parts of us.
We the sin for a three isself-deceit.

(47:20):
People say deceit and sayvanity.
I say self-deceit because I it'swe're deceiving ourselves.

SPEAKER_01 (47:27):
Yeah, I agree, and I I don't know if I've met threes
who I would say, oh, they'revain people at all.
No, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (47:35):
Because part of being a three is like if you if
you're seen as vain, that's notgood.
Like, and I don't want to beseen as someone who's vain.
I am a little vain, but I don'twant to be I'm like being subtle
about it, you know.
Hopefully.
I don't think it's always don'tyou?

SPEAKER_01 (47:54):
I just I love when we say our inside thoughts out
loud.
Yeah, because it's yes, it's sorefreshing.
It's so refreshing, like,because as a two, like I can
really resonate with that oflike I am, but you know I am,
but I hope that you like I hopethat I'm not giving you the
impression that I right, right?

SPEAKER_00 (48:14):
Like a lot of people, I think they they're
confused when threes becausethere actually are a lot of
threes who don't want to be theperson on stage, right?
They don't want to be the personwith the light on them, but they
want to be still seen asvaluable, like they don't want
to be seen as the person whowants to be on the stage, you

(48:36):
know.
I do like being on the stage,but I don't want you all to see
to like see me asking to be upthere, like that's embarrassing
too.
It's all about being smooth andbeing charismatic and like I
just am, you know, I didn't askto be this way, I just am, you
know, like it's so stupid, butthere is this kind of meta

(49:01):
monitoring of your ego, right?
I am this way, but how do I makemyself how do I make myself get
rewarded without asking for areward?
Right.
Yeah, I'm curious don't knowthat they're doing that.

SPEAKER_01 (49:15):
Yeah, I'm curious about mistyping for threes
because I think a lot of highlyambitious and highly motivated
people mistype as a threebecause that I think they
identify with that aspect of athree.
I wonder, like what would youadd to that?

SPEAKER_00 (49:31):
I think what I would say is that's that's the when
we're talking about behavior ofa number instead of the
motivation of a number.
So one, what I would say is haveyou been high achieving your
entire life?
Probably the answer to that fora lot of these women is yes,
right?
Three is not about being highachieving.
A lot of numbers are highachieving.
Eights are high achieving, ones,sixes, a lot of twos are high

(49:54):
achieving.
Sevens find themselves the bossof things sometimes, right?
There are a lot of numbers thatare very high achieving.
What threes are doing that otherother numbers are not doing is
that they are disconnecting fromparts of themselves.
They are performing in front ofpeople.

SPEAKER_01 (50:14):
They are like their life is a performance, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 (50:18):
Your life is a it's not just when you're at work or
when you're achieving.
Your life is when you're withyour friends, your life is a
performance, right?
It takes work for you to be ableto feel comfortable in front of
people.
And not because, you know, likea six might not feel comfortable
in front of people because theydon't trust them yet.
It's not that, it's believingthat people will still like you

(50:43):
when you are not these things.

SPEAKER_01 (50:44):
When you're not performing.

SPEAKER_00 (50:46):
When you are not performing.
If I took away your degree, if Itook away your job, if I took
away how funny you are, if Itook away your ability to lead a
group, if I took all thosethings away, do you think your
people would still like you?
And if your, I mean, probablyyour logical answer is yes, but
if your emotional, your heartanswer is I would be afraid that

(51:07):
they wouldn't, that that mightmean that you're a three.
You know?
Yeah.
And it's everywhere.
It's at work, it's in parenting,it's with your friends, it's
everywhere, everywhere.
Right?
Yeah.
Okay, should we do twos?
I want you to do two.

(51:27):
It's so hard.
You do twos.
What do you think peoplemisunderstand about twos?

SPEAKER_01 (51:31):
I think people misunderstand just how I know a
lot of twos, so that's it's likea tender one for me.
I don't think they understandhow instinctual and responsive

(51:52):
it is for us to feel otherpeople's feelings as if it's our
own.
And to fundamentally be moreaware of what other people want
and need than we are of likewhat our own sense is.
Like it is it feelsphysiologically like
uncomfortable and almostimpossible for twos to not

(52:14):
consider everyone else's needsas more important, everyone
else's feelings and emotionalexperience, and it takes it
takes a lot of work for them toexist as a self.

SPEAKER_00 (52:27):
Yeah.
Draw the difference between thatand nine for me because that
sounds a little like nine,right?
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (52:35):
I think for twos is so different than nines.
It's it's not that we're tryingto peacekeep.
We're not like aware of how do Ijust I've never had to use the
language of a nine and a two inthis sense of for twos, it feels

(52:58):
like I have to do somethingabout it.
I have to take care of it, Ihave to fix it, versus I need to
pretend it doesn't exist or nothave it be a problem.
It's like this is a problem thatis like tangibly there.
I'm curious what you would sayabout twos.

SPEAKER_00 (53:14):
That's that's actually great.
I think I see a lot ofespecially women struggle
between nine and two.
And what I would say is if youfeel like one of the options at
hand is to just ignore theproblem, then that's you're
probably a nine.

unknown (53:29):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (53:29):
And if you don't feel like the problem, yeah.
Ignore ignoring the problem isone of the hardest things for
me.
Yeah, that's a good one.
That's a really gooddistinction.
Really, I haven't come up withthat.
That's a good one, Katie.
Thank you for that one because Ifeel like I now I have such a
better language because twos andnines do mistype a lot.

(53:51):
And it's especially women tendto often mistype as twos and
nines.
But yeah, I'm thinking of myselfand my like so many of the twos
that I know and love.
It is one of the hardest thingsfor us to get our heads out of
the asses of the people that welove.
Like the closer they are to us,the more we love them, the more
that we like them, the more wefeel responsible or it's our job

(54:14):
to take care of them.
I have to physiologically likeremind myself hold, hold like
last night, like my daughter,last night, my daughter was
struggling, and I kept trying tofix it and I kept trying to like
make it better.
And then all of a sudden I waslike, There's nothing for you to
do.

(54:35):
And that was so impossibly hardfor me to just not do anything.
Yeah, like just ignoring itwasn't an option, but like I
did, I had to do something,anyways.
But like over-asserting myselfis for sure the most natural
thing to me, and like actuallypulling back my energy is

(54:55):
excruciating and like asking forwhat I need or telling people my
preferences can sometimes feelso silly, but like it actually
takes a lot of energy for me totell you when you did something
that hurt my feelings, or youdid something that hurt me,
especially when it cost mesomething.

SPEAKER_00 (55:14):
Yeah, I think that's a great point.
I'm thinking of my mama now, andI'll say one more thing.
I think people I did not getabout her.
Okay.
So she did Suzanne's cohort withme.
So we were in the same roomlearning about twos and threes
and all the numbers, right?
And I think this is part, thisis part of thinking repression.

(55:36):
It's it's not being able, it'sthinking repression and it's a
two.
It's not being able toconceptualize yourself, right?
So we would start talking aboutunhealthy twos.
My mother hasn't has she'sreally been pretty healthy, at
least as long as I have knownher as an adult.
I don't know what she was likewhen she was 16, 20, 25.

(55:56):
But as long as I have had thebrain to understand her as a
whole person, she's been a veryhealthy woman, right?
And so we'll start talking aboutunhealthy twos, and she'll look
over at me and she'll be like,Do you think I do that?
And for a while, I was justlike, No, like, of course, of
course not.
But then she kept asking it tothings that like had would

(56:21):
never, she's never done.
She's never acted that way,right?
So one time I was like, Mom, doyou are you just asking me that
to like to ask, or do you reallynot know that you are not the
person that they're talkingabout?
She's like, No, I don't know.
Like, maybe I maybe I've donethat, maybe I've hurt your
feelings like that, and I don'tknow.

(56:42):
Like, maybe I've been thathorrible and ugly to people and
I just didn't know.
And I was like, What are youtalking?
What are you talking about?
Right?
It's that, it's it's that levelof not knowing who you are and
not being so worried about yourimpact on people that you like

(57:02):
lose the ability to be objectiveabout it.
How deep that goes, I think, intwos, is something I didn't even
realize until you know, I wasfaced with it with my mom.
So now I just say no, you'venever done that.

SPEAKER_01 (57:18):
I mean, people can't see me, but I am like
aggressively nodding so big ofand the way that you just said
it.
I mean, I've been in Enneagramfor a long time and I've been in
coaching, and I've never thelanguage you just gave me of my
own experience and what Iwitnessed in my in like the
women I know and work with, itit like it almost makes me want

(57:39):
to cry.
Like yeah, like it's such a it'ssuch a hard part that I really
don't think is understood abouttwos.

SPEAKER_00 (57:48):
I think so too.
Yeah, because I think twos don'tthey don't know that I mean
maybe you can talk to thisbetter.
They don't know that they do it,and they also don't like twos
don't talk about themselvesbecause they feel like that's
selfish.
Yeah.
So you have to really, really,really know a two, and the two
really, really has to trust you,and you have to say everything
about yourself before the twowill ever get to say will ever

(58:12):
want to say anything aboutthemselves, right?
So it just takes.
I mean, speaking of fives,actually, two fives and eights
are kind of all like this, butthey don't give you much,
actually, which sounds weird tosay about a two because twos are
giving you all the time, but notabout themselves, not about
themselves, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (58:30):
Well, and what you've said, I I think as soon
as you say it, twos willrecognize it for the most part,
but it's not something that theywould self-recognize because
they are so giving.
And one of the things I think isinteresting that I'm just now
I'm just now finding thelanguage for.
I think for so many twos, wedon't trust what we know of

(58:50):
ourselves until you know it andsee it in us.
But like for me, it's been agift to be in relationship to
other twos because they seethings in me and and they're and
they're paying attention andthey're saying it of like, oh,
this is something about you orthat I know about you.
But I didn't believe it until Igot it from them, not from

(59:12):
myself, not knowing it inmyself.
It was, oh, once you know it inme, now I know it in me.
Yeah.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (59:19):
It's one of the that's one of the things about
the Ennegram.
Like, if that's what you need toknow things about yourself,
great.
Go get yourself a two-friend.
You're probably never gonnachange.
The Innegram teaches you thereis some core stuff about you
that you're gonna be strugglingwith until the day you die,
right?
Yeah, you might get better atit.
Hopefully we do, but it's gonnabe hard for you until the day

(59:41):
you die, right?
And if the easy way around thatis to call your two friend and
say, I need you to tell me nicethings about myself, that's
fine.
That's great.

SPEAKER_01 (59:51):
Yeah, I five little ways.
I have this thing when I'm indeep shame is I check in on the
people who like I know know me,and like I need.
You to remind me who I ambecause like I'm forgetting.
Yeah.
Because at my lowest of lows, Ithink the worst of myself,
right?
Internally, you probablywouldn't know it in the way I
walk around the world.
Right.
But like, even as a very healthytwo, I have those moments.

SPEAKER_00 (01:00:14):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (01:00:15):
Yeah.
So ones.

SPEAKER_00 (01:00:18):
I think one of the things that you do not get about
ones from the description ofthem is I know a lot of ones who
are really funny.

SPEAKER_01 (01:00:25):
Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:00:26):
Which seems like such a simple funny.
But I think that gets lost.
So funny.
Like they have a line to sevenfor a reason.
Right.
But ones are funny and they areresponsive in a way that I don't

(01:00:47):
think you know until you areclose to one.
I think so.
Jeff Cook is a one.
And he's the first one.
I don't really have many otherones in my life.
My cousin's a one.
But we don't we don't live neareach other.
Blah blah blah.
So and now I work with Jeffalmost daily.
And what I have learned frombeing close to a one that I

(01:01:10):
don't think you would know ifyou were just watching a one
from afar, ones really look likethey have all their stuff
together all the time.
Jeff does have his stufftogether.
But what I don't think the restof us see is this constant
turmoil of like, I thought thisthing was going to be good and
now the situation has changedand now I need to fix it.

(01:01:31):
And that happens over and overand over and over again, right?
I had a plan and now thesituation's changed and now I
need to change my plan.
I had a plan and then thesituation changed and now I need
to change my plan.
Like ones, I think, look sostoic and put together, and
they're in the body triad, theydeal with anger, right?
Sometimes their anger comes outon people, and people assume

(01:01:54):
that they just have this veryclear vision of where they're
going and what they're doing,and we're just none of us are
just living up to it now.
They're mad at us.
And what I know now, being closeto a one, is that they often
struggle with where they'regoing to, you know, they are not

(01:02:14):
as put together, but I I hopenot in a bad way, like kind of
in a freeing way.
You know, I ones are not asrigid as I think people assume
they are when they see them fromafar.

SPEAKER_01 (01:02:33):
I d I I agree.
And I also think sometimes withones the rid I think there's so
much control that other peoplewill feel as controlling, but to
a one it feels like love.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So it it to certain types theydon't necessarily it's like such

(01:02:57):
a different language to themthat I don't understand that.
Like sometimes I think ones canbe really blunt, but I think
it's such a loving thing forthem.
Of like it's a helpfulness inthem so often.
Both to others, but I think alsoin themselves.
Like so many ones with liketheir inner critic, or you know,

(01:03:18):
some people will call them theperfectionists, but I think just
the term perfectionist ismisunderstood in our culture.
Yeah, I agree.
I I've never met a one or aperfectionist who ever uses the
word perfect.
Never once.
Yeah.
Never once.
It's just that they are highlyaware of the gap.
And that's such a beautiful,good quality to have.

(01:03:39):
That's that's very exhausting tolive with.
Yeah.

unknown (01:03:42):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:03:43):
I guess what I I get like rigidity is good sometimes,
but I guess I would call it whenwe look at them from afar, it
can sometimes be like a coldrigidity.

SPEAKER_01 (01:03:53):
And I like what you said, like maybe it is a
rigidity, but it is war, it iswarm, which is a weird word to
put right next to rigid, youknow, but it's it's like a
loving, strict parent who likeunderstands that there needs to
be order and there needs to bemoral, there needs to be
standards and expectations.

SPEAKER_02 (01:04:12):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (01:04:13):
And I do think, like, especially really healthy
ones, there's such a warmness tothat.
But I think other people, noteveryone's experienced that as a
healthy quality.

SPEAKER_00 (01:04:23):
Right, right.

SPEAKER_01 (01:04:24):
If that makes sense, like it's a misunderstood
quality.
I think the nature of it isreally, really good, but I think
other types can tend to respondbadly, even when it truly is a
healthy aspect, because I thinka lot of us resist that other
people calling us into things,yeah, or calling.

SPEAKER_00 (01:04:45):
I think ones have like a humanity that I think
people don't see.
Like what I'm thinking of is Ialways admire Jeff.
Doesn't think that he has thisskill, but he absolutely does.
He can come up with the way hesays things on podcasts and the
questions he asks are so goodand so put together.

(01:05:08):
And what I know now is that thattook him, you know, a week to
put together because he was soworried about it sounding right,
right?
So thoughtful, like yes, yeah,thoughtful.
It's it it's and he felt like hedidn't have it right.
So he went back and he read abook and then he came back to
it.
And it's all because like, yeah,it wants to be good, but there's

(01:05:32):
also this sense in once likethey want it to be good for you
too, you know.
Like he wants it to reach peopleand he wants people to connect
with it, he wants to createsomething good for everybody,
for himself and for everybody,right?

SPEAKER_01 (01:05:48):
Yeah, I feel like what you just said, I feel like
it, I hope it like hugs all ofthe ones.
Yeah, I hope so.

SPEAKER_00 (01:05:55):
Yeah, we do, we do, and you don't think you're good
at things, but you are, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (01:06:00):
They're so good at things.
I think that's so interestingwith each type is I feel like
the things that we're best atand the things that we're worst
at, we can't even understandthem because it's so fundamental
to us.
It's just like you said, likeyou're the fish swimming in
water.
Right.
How do you possibly describewhat it's like?

SPEAKER_00 (01:06:20):
Right.

SPEAKER_01 (01:06:20):
This is so I feel like I could just listen to you
talk about Enneagram all day.
I'm so excited for your podcast.
I know incredible.
I feel like you are just like, Ihave what I call it my like
Enneagram Bible.
It's like all of my typeworksheets.
Yeah, like every different Ilove that book so much.
I feel like you're that book.
Like there's so many times wheresomeone will ask me something

(01:06:41):
and like, I don't know, let mego get my book because there's
so much.
You are such a wealth ofknowledge, but I it's not just
head knowledge, there is so muchheart and feeling and emotion.
And I like I just want to likecommend you on that because I
feel like you bring such abeautiful lens to Enneagram that
I feel like I've never evenexperienced, and I've done a lot

(01:07:03):
of Enneagram work, and all of asudden, like, oh, like Enneagram
according to Katie is like oneof my favorite Enneagrams.
Like thank you.
I really love it.
You're it's it's really coolwhat you're doing.
I'm curious, like as we wrap up,do you have a favorite Enneagram
book?

(01:07:24):
They're like you just like love.

SPEAKER_00 (01:07:29):
I think can I give two?

SPEAKER_01 (01:07:33):
Yeah, oh yeah, I'm a rule breaker.

SPEAKER_00 (01:07:35):
So yeah, yeah.
So Riso and Hudson are like theguys in the Enneagram, right?
Like when you ever ever if everyou decide to really, really
get, you know, anybody who'slistening, really, really get
into the Ennegram, like they'rethe OG people who started
writing about it in the 80s,right?
Some of the OG people.
Look at Riso and Hudson,R-I-S-O-Hudson, H U D S O N.

(01:07:59):
It's two different people.
They have two books.
Their big one is personalitytypes, and they it is about that
thick, and it's all it talksabout is like one through nine,
basically.
Yeah, so there's a whole sectionon each number, and they talk
about them in a depth that Idon't think really gets matched

(01:08:19):
many other places.

SPEAKER_01 (01:08:20):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:08:21):
I love that one.
They also have another onecalled The Wisdom of the
Enneagram, which goes a little,it talks about the nine, one
through nine again, but it alsoadds some more theory on top of
it.
So if you're kind of looking fora 201, that's it.
That's I really like that one aswell.
Those are on my I have anEnneagram shelf as well.
And those are like the the twothat I always pull out if I need

(01:08:42):
to remember something.
Those are the two that I go tofirst, usually.
So it's like a text, it feelslike textbook-y to me.
Like all my other books I reallylike and they talk about things
very well.
But if I just need to looksomething up, like I know that
those two books will have itprobably.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (01:08:58):
So that's awesome.
Is there anything we missedabout Enneagram that you're
like, ah, she didn't ask methis?

SPEAKER_00 (01:09:04):
I don't think so.
What I would say, if anyone'sinterested, try to find a room
that you can sit in.
It's gonna be hard.
There's a lot of podcasts,there's a lot of books to read.
What I tell people, half ofanything you're ever gonna know
about the Enneagram is gonnacome from a teacher.
So it's gonna come from, youknow, a podcast like this, a
book you're gonna read,whatever.

(01:09:25):
The other half that you cannotpick up just from listening to
people, no matter how much youtry, my lovely fives, is you
have to be in a room and youhave to be listening to other
people talk, A, about theirnumber, but you also have to be
paying attention to how theytalk, right?
There is a cadence that like alot of sevens carry in their

(01:09:47):
voice, right?
There's a way that sixes givecontext to everything.
Like that's if you really,really want to pick it up, you
need to go find a room wherepeople are gathering and talking
any gram.
And that's where you really,really start to know it, right?

SPEAKER_01 (01:10:03):
Yeah, I agree.

SPEAKER_00 (01:10:04):
Or do a book club with your friends, like
whatever.

SPEAKER_01 (01:10:07):
I think what's powerful with that too,
especially when we're looking atrelationships, is you start to
meet other people who you don'talready have a fixed idea about.
Especially when you look at likerelationships, like your parents
or your yourself.
Yeah, you get in a room withsomeone else who is that type,
and you are able to see yourselfand someone else through a new

(01:10:29):
light.
Like I talked a little bit aboutlike being in relationship to
some like Enneagram eight women,all of a sudden I was like, I
fundamentally understand myhusband and like the other
eights in my life in a new waybecause I was in their presence.
And it's not that they're thesame people, they're very
different.
No, they're not, yeah.
Eight and like I understoodfacets of them that were like

(01:10:53):
with my husband, I was tooafraid of certain things, or I
had it too locked in and fixedin of who he was, and all of a
sudden I went, I'vemisunderstood you this whole
time.
Yeah, and it wasn't your fault,it was my fault.
Like I wasn't seeing you.
And I think when you get in aroom talking about Enneagram and
working through it, you start tohear and see facets about humans

(01:11:16):
that are so beautiful and soheartbreaking.
And I think if all of us couldhave our heartbreak a little
bit, yeah, for what it's like tobe you and also what it's like
to be someone else, I think itreally does change the way that
you relate to other peopleprofessionally, personally, in
every arena of life.

SPEAKER_00 (01:11:34):
I agree.
I tell people I get angry muchless often now.
Oh, yeah.
I get frustrated, I getfrustrated less.
Or if I get frustrated, it'sgone pretty quickly because I'm
like, well, I know why they'redoing that, right?

SPEAKER_01 (01:11:49):
Yeah, I get for me, even when there is conflict, I
feel like I know how to face it.

unknown (01:11:54):
Right.

SPEAKER_01 (01:11:54):
It teaches us different things.
See, I'm great at justpretending there is no conflict.
Bye.
This was so great.
I love this podcast so so much.
Thank you so much for beinghere.
Of course.

SPEAKER_00 (01:12:11):
Yes, go on Instagram, type in nine, the
number nine, fold anygram.
Ninefold anygram.
That's my Instagram.
That's where I do.

SPEAKER_01 (01:12:18):
We'll have the link below too.

SPEAKER_00 (01:12:20):
Yeah, most of my stuff.
I have a website, but if youfollow me on Instagram, you'll
keep up with stuff.

SPEAKER_01 (01:12:24):
So yeah, and when does your podcast start coming
out?

SPEAKER_00 (01:12:27):
Probably October.
I think we're shooting for earlyOctober.

SPEAKER_01 (01:12:30):
So we're pretty close.
And once that's live, I'll putlink, we'll put the link in the
bio of this one.

SPEAKER_00 (01:12:35):
It's called early access.
It's gonna be an e gram for notfour, but kind of I talk to
people under 35.
Right.
The biggest thing is that I'munder 35 and kind of talking to
people about this kind of stageof life, no matter how old they
might actually be at the moment,right?

SPEAKER_01 (01:12:54):
So I love that.
It's fun, it's so great.
It's gonna be great.
Well, thank you so much, Katie.
Of course, absolutely.
Thank you.
Thanks for joining me on today'sepisode of the Motherhood Mentor
Podcast.
Make sure you have subscribedbelow so that you see all of the
upcoming podcasts that arecoming soon.
I hope you take today's episodeand you take one aha moment, one

(01:13:16):
small tangible piece of workthat you can bring into your
life to get your hands a littledirty, to get your skin in the
game.
Don't forget to take upaudacious space in your life.
If this podcast moved you, if itinspired you, if it encouraged
you, please do me a favor andleave a review.
Send an episode to a friend.

(01:13:36):
This helps the show gain moretraction.
It helps us to support moremoms, more women.
And that's what we're doinghere.
So I hope you have an awesomeday.
Take really good care ofyourself, and I'll see you next
time.

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