Intrusive Thoughts, Postpartum Struggles, and Permission to Breathe

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Motherhood will stretch you in ways you never imagined, but you don’t have to face it alone. In this raw conversation with Dr. Kim Murray, licensed marriage & family therapist and perinatal mental health specialist, we break open the truths no one is talking about on Instagram or in the baby books especially around postpartum mental health struggles. 

We cover:

1. Why perinatal mental health starts before conception and lasts years after birth
2. The sobering reality: 1 in 5 mothers experience postpartum depression or anxiety
3. Why intrusive thoughts are more common than you think (and not a sign you’re broken)
4. The impact of a baby’s arrival on marriage and how to protect your relationship
5. What “maternal gatekeeping” really is and why it fuels burnout
6. Small but powerful tools for survival: grounding, 60-second hugs, and the radical act of saying no

Above all, you’ll learn why the mantra “Something’s got to give-but it cannot be me” might just save your sanity.

Whether you’re planning for pregnancy, navigating the newborn haze, chasing toddlers, or redefining your identity as your kids grow, this episode offers validation, strategies, and hope.

Be sure to grab Dr. Kim Murray's Postpartum Support Plan 

About Dr. Kim Murray: 

I am a proud mother of two girls, with a loving husband whom I have called mine for almost 20 years.

Dr. Kim Murray https://www.safehavenfamilytherapy.com/

💌 If this conversation resonates, please share it with a friend who needs the reminder: she’s not alone.

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If you’re ready to stop living on autopilot and start leading your life with deep presence, I’d love to work with you. Book a free interest call here: Click Here

💌 Want more? Follow me on Instagram @themotherhoodmentor for somatic tools, nervous system support, and real-talk on high-functioning burnout, ambition, healing perfectionism, and motherhood. And also pretty epic meme drops.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to the Motherhood Mentor Podcast.
I'm Becca, a somatic healingpractitioner and a holistic life
coach for moms, and thispodcast is for you.
You can expect honestconversations and incredible
guests that speak to health,healing and growth in every area
of our lives.
This isn't just strategy forwhat we do.
It's support for who we are.
I believe we can be wildlyambitious while still holding

(00:25):
all of our soft and hardhumanity as holy.
I love combining deep innerhealing with strategic systems
and no-nonsense talk about whatthis season is really like.
So grab whatever weird healthbeverage you're currently into
and let's get into it.
Welcome to today's episode ofthe Motherhood Mentor Podcast.

(00:46):
Today, I have a super specialguest with me and we're going to
be talking a lot aboutperinatal mental health, but
also just about being a mom andmental health in general and how
we take care of ourselves, whatthat actually looks like, the
struggles, the ways that wesupport ourselves through those
struggles.
And will you just take a momentand introduce yourself for us,

(01:08):
kim?

Speaker 2 (01:09):
Of course.
So my name is Kim Murray.
I am a licensed marriage andfamily therapist with my
doctorate and about 13 years ofexperience behind that.
I love what I do.
I get to support moms, partners, couples and all things.
Mental health, most notablyhere, perinatal mental health.

(01:31):
So from the period of thinkingabout conception through the
first few years of life and Ifeel honored to do what I do.
I love what I do.
I work a lot with my community.
I own a group private practicecalled Safe Haven Family Therapy
where we support the wholefamily, starting at the age of
two and a half all the way up.
So it's really neat.

Speaker 1 (01:53):
I love it when you were talking about the before.
This isn't where I plan tostart, but I feel like it is
important for so many women.
Their journey to perinatalmental health starts before
conception, even.
It starts when they're startingto think about getting pregnant
, or you know, I think of thewomen who have fertility
struggles or secondary fertilitystruggles, or they have a lot

(02:16):
of stuff that comes up evenbefore the pregnancy.
I'm curious, like, what is thatjourney like for women?
I think, what, like?
What's unexpected for thosewomen?

Speaker 2 (02:46):
to look for, of what makes a good dad or mother, what
doesn't make a good partner,and we select based on that too.
So it starts even well beforethat as we figure out our mate.
Women and men go into thistypically thinking just about
the excitement, the joy, whichis a beautiful thing, but rarely
do we take time to pause andthink about what are the
challenges we're going to face.
Where are the speed bumps ourmarriage is going to hit?

(03:11):
Where am I going to struggleindividually, even as, and even
our chatting about this prior torecording, even as mental
health professionals ourselves?
I thought I had it all together.
I was ready to be a mom.
I've studied this for years.
It's going to be totally fine.
Had my first.
I was not totally fine, right,it was rough.

(03:33):
Postpartum was rough, pregnancywas rough and I wasn't ready
for that.
So I think for people goinginto this, we see in Hollywood
that fertility is easy, that youhave sex one time and you're
pregnant and pregnancy isbeautiful and you're glowing and
labor's kind of hard but it'sokay, and then we have this

(03:55):
beautiful baby.
There is so much more to it andfor some women and their
partners it's even moredifficult than, say their
friends, their family orwhatever Hollywood notions
they've seen of pregnancy andbirth.

Speaker 1 (04:11):
Yeah Well, and I think one of my biggest
soapboxes is when I was pregnant.
So my first pregnancy, whichended in a miscarriage.
Even just the way the doctorstreated me, it was like here's
this physiological thing that'shappening, there's a baby,
there's not a baby.
There was literally, I mean onewhich just my heart breaks and

(04:32):
I get so mad thinking about thisprovider didn't even talk to me
at all about what was happening.
It was the worst experience.
But even moving into my secondpregnancy, I was at first.
In the beginning it was like,oh, you're pregnant and you're
going to have a baby, but I washaving so much mental and

(04:53):
emotional I mean one.
I had HG, but I was having Metoo, sister, the worst.

Speaker 2 (05:01):
It is the worst.
I don't know what that is.
I'm so happy for you For thebirds.

Speaker 1 (05:03):
That is why we stopped, that is.
But I'm so happy for you Forthe birds.

Speaker 2 (05:05):
That is why we stopped at two.
Hyperemesis is for the birds.

Speaker 1 (05:10):
But I remember having these care providers just
talking to me about what'shappening to the baby, and
there's the apps that tell youhow big the baby is and there's
the books that like what toexpect when you're expecting.
And I'm so grateful that Ifound myself, kind of by
accident, in this world where Ihad midwives and women around me
who weren't just talking aboutthe how of parenting, they were

(05:35):
talking about what it actuallyfeels like to go through that.
I think of like the women whosurrounded me at like La Leche
League meetings, where it wasn'tjust how do I feed my baby,
it's me breaking down in tears,being like I think I know how
I'm doing, but I don't know howI'm doing and I don't know if
I'm doing okay and I don't knowif I'm doing this the right way
or the wrong way.
And there's like 50 millionexperts who are telling me

(05:57):
different things and some of itdoesn't really feel right, but
like I don't when they're liketrust your intuition.
I didn't know how to trust myintuition as a new mom.
I wasn't connected to my gut.
I all the things that I thoughtI would do as a mom, the ways I
thought I would parent, the kindof parent I would want to be.

(06:18):
The formula or thebreastfeeding or how I would
birth all of that felt deeplyemotional and it woke me up.
I had previous trauma and allof that kind of just cracked
open in pregnancy and postpartumfor me and I'm so, so grateful
that I was in a community whereI had language for that.

(06:40):
I had people who saw that andsupported that, because I think
of women who you know, I workwith a lot of women who they
were very successful.
They had these really beautiful, wonderful concepts of self and
then they came into parentingor pregnancy or miscarriages or

(07:00):
trying to conceive, and evenjust that was like wait, what do
you mean?
I'm not in control, it's brutal.

Speaker 2 (07:07):
It takes your sense of self, your core, your sense
of identity.
Yeah Right, because we believewhatever we see.
We believe the things on socialmedia.
We don't talk about hyperemesisor miscarriages or infertility.
It's left in this box of tabooand shame and keep it to
yourself.

(07:27):
And so we don't hear thosetestimonies.
We don't know how to supportwomen when they go through it.
We don't expect it forourselves because it's all
tucked away and all we hearabout are these really positive
stories, which sometimes theyappear positive, right, think
about social media.
Here are highlight reel andwomen are actually struggling.

(07:49):
Their partners are actuallystruggling, but they're too
afraid to say it.

Speaker 1 (07:53):
Yeah, it can be, yeah , and it's hard too, because I
think there's that positive sideof motherhood that's shared, oh
yeah.
And then I think there's thisother side of motherhood where
it's just all miserable and doomand gloom and you're going to
hate your partner, you're goingto hate yourself, you're going
to lose yourself and it becomesthis whole story that I think we
can get caught in.

(08:13):
But like there's a reality tothat story.
For so many women and I thinkwomen who are trying to be so
positive about it and tuck itaway for themselves or for the
culture it's like how do we talkabout these things in a way
that allows for the humanexperience, without becoming
victims to this story ofeverything's miserable and it's

(08:35):
terrible, when that is part ofthe reality for some people, for
some seasons?
I'm curious when someone comesto you, what are some of the
first things they ask or saywhen they're looking for therapy
?
Because I think for so manywomen they're like how do I know
what's normal?
How do I know if I'm okay?

(08:56):
Because at least with thepopulation I work with, with the
woman I work with, they'realways going to be okay, they're
always going to tell youthey're fine, they're always
going to feel okay becausethey're never not in control.

Speaker 2 (09:10):
That's fair.
Often it's moms who have hadone baby before and recognize I
don't want to go throughwhatever that experience was
again.
So postpartum depression,postpartum anxiety.
Sometimes it's first time momsthat their partner said hey,
it's time to get support, orthey're recognizing I don't like
my baby or I don't feel good inmy skin or I'm thinking about

(09:32):
suicide or whatever it might be.
But often it's the mom who'salready been through it who's
afraid of doing it again.
When I have partners and mamascome in, one of the first
questions I often get asked is Iwant to tell you what I'm
thinking.
I want to tell you what I'mfeeling, but I'm afraid you're
going to take my baby.
I'm afraid you're going toreport me to CPS because they're

(09:54):
having, say, intrusive thoughts.
Intrusive thoughts might be.
I just pictured throwing mybaby over the balcony.
Do I actually intend throwingmy baby over the balcony?
No, but that thought wentthrough my brain.
It felt icky, so it was egodystonic, meaning it doesn't
agree with me.
And now I'm afraid if I tellanyone that, one, I'm the only

(10:14):
person that's ever gone throughthis.
Two people are going to think Iactually want to kill my baby
and three, I'm going to facejudgment and scrutiny and I
can't handle that right now.
I'm going to face judgment andscrutiny and I can't handle that
right now.
So that's a big one.
When people come in of a fearof really sharing how hard it is
, if I say I'm struggling toshower more than once a week,
are you going to think I'mneglecting my baby?

(10:35):
I'm struggling withbreastfeeding Are you going to
think I'm neglecting my baby?
That is often the conversationwe're having with moms, with
partners.
Partners tend to be a littlemore reluctant to come in
because there isn't room for thesupport person, or typically

(10:57):
the masculine person, to getsupport, to struggle, to have
their own sense of identityshifts and hormone fluctuations
and postpartum depression.
We know that for women it isbetween one and five and one and
seven women in postpartum willexperience postpartum depression
and anxiety.
We suspect that's actuallyhigher, but because of reporting
biases that's about where it'sat Men are between one and eight

(11:20):
and one and 10.
Again, we suspect it's higher,but reporting biases.
Men are also going through this.
Their hormones are changingwhen they produce oxytocin or
that bonding hormone.
With baby we see testosteronego down.
So they feel that fluctuation.
They're also not, they're onlythe partner's only affection

(11:42):
point, they probably aren'thaving sex like they're used to.
They might feel like a burdenor unseen.
They might feel incompetent asa parent, and so for male
partners typically, it's in thatrealm of I don't know how to
support her, I don't know how tokeep our marriage afloat,
because she's the one that's incharge of the baby Maternal

(12:04):
gatekeeping is what that'scalled.
She is who gets to rule, getsto control, and I am just there
as a burden or to providefinancially or whatever it might
be.
That's where people typicallystart.
Yeah, is a lot of shame.
Shame about talking about thisexperience, feeling like they're
the only ones.

(12:24):
And is there room for me toexpress myself?

Speaker 1 (12:27):
Yeah, when it comes to maternal gatekeeping, I'm
curious if you can explain whatthat looks like and feels like
for the mother, not because thefathers don't matter, but
because they're probably mostlikely not listening to my
podcast Because I mean, you knowthis about me but, like, I'm
deeply passionate about thefather or the man or the

(12:48):
partner's experience and howthat impacts you, how it's
impacting your experience, howit's impacting their experience,
because it's all your own.
I mean, quite literally, wedon't have villages anymore, so
when you're having a baby withsomeone, they are your village.
So when that's cracking, whenthat connection, when that bond

(13:09):
is struggling which it oftendoes in parenting, whether
that's in the baby season or thetoddlers, for most people they
will experience shifts, andsometimes those are hard and
then good, and sometimes theyare earth shatteringly hard and
you have to make really bigdecisions about how to move
forward.
But I'm curious for thatmaternal gatekeeping what does

(13:32):
that look like and feel like forthe mother?

Speaker 2 (13:33):
Good question and I want to speak to what you were
just saying about it shiftingthe marriage, and then I'll get
to that question.
We know that the birth of ourfirst baby is the single largest
event that contributes to adecline in marital satisfaction
and quality.
Above anything else besides,the death of a child, it is the
thing that makes marriages shaketo their core, completely

(13:56):
realigns our marriage andourselves, and so it's meant to
rock you.
The question is, how much doesit get to rock you, depending on
your support system, yourcoping tools, that village
around you For women, what itfeels like for maternal
gatekeeping.
It feels like burnout,hypervigilance all the time.

(14:17):
So I'm aware of baby all thetime.
It feels like exhaustion, notbeing able to take a moment for
myself without feeling like I'mstill responsible for that other
human.
It can start to feel likeresentment towards my partner.
Why don't you ever help me?
Why am I alone?
Why am I doing everything forthe baby?

(14:37):
And you're not doing anything.
And reality is male partner mayhave tried to do something but
then got criticized.
And reality is male partner mayhave tried to do something but
then got criticized, corrected,put down, mom might have
intervened, and so male partnerpulls back even more.
Plus, as a society we don'tprep men really to become
parents, whereas we attempt toprep women sort of kind of.

(14:59):
But for women it's a tough one.
Most women by and large wouldsay I don't want that role, but
they are put into that rolewhether it's societal or within
that marriage itself.

Speaker 1 (15:11):
Yeah Well, and even I think that happens too because
there's not other parents around.
I mean, you think of the actualvillage that we crave, and I
don't know if you see this too,but I work with women who, like
they, have friends, they havefamily, they have people.
But that's very different tohave people in this current

(15:35):
society for most people, becauseyour acts of parenting are
happening alone, your daily,monotonous, nightly routines,
and life is primarily happeningwith just you and the kids.
If you had a village, it'd beyou and several other adults and
several other kids.
There would be other people toattune to, other people to

(15:56):
regulate with, other people towatch the kids.
But I think so many women, Ithink they biologically take on
this role of I have to behypervigilant.
I have, I'm the one, I have tobe the one who's always on,
always paying attention.
And even if I think you made agood point here, I think there's

(16:16):
a lot of women who havepartners who want to be
supportive, but but the dynamicsbetween them as a couple or as
parents, they just don't knowhow to do that.
Their nervous system is so infight and flight, it's so
panicked about the care of thisbaby that they don't slow down

(16:38):
and bring in that other personwho is kind of their village in
that home.

Speaker 2 (16:43):
Sure, and sometimes it's out of necessity, right, if
mom's staying home with babe,for example, male partner's got
to go to work, someone's got topay the bills, and that's also
where men kind of get shafted,for lack of a better term of
their role.
Is that not to be parent?
And so it really impacts thatcompetency, but again, then it

(17:04):
leaves mom alone.
We need support.
Other cultures, like in Europe,have a sitting-in period where
it I forget the exact numbers,but it's a.
I think it's like a week orsomething, a week and a half,
where you're in bed, anotherweek, a week and a half of close
to bed, and then you can startto gradually go outside of that.
In bed means in bed Someone isproviding you meals, someone is

(17:29):
taking babies so you can nap,there is a support system around
you, and in American culture wejust don't have that.
We don't.
We're way behind in terms ofsupporting families as they
build and grow, and this is truenot just for first babes.
I want to be really clear.
We think first babes are thehardest, and for some people
they are For other peoplethey're not Now.

(17:50):
I have a toddler and a baby, ortwo toddlers and a baby, and
that's a whole different beast.
So these challenges don't endat the first born.
They can happen in anypregnancy, any journey of
fertility, any point within theparenting journey.

Speaker 1 (18:07):
Yeah, what are some of the things that are
supportive for people in officeand out of office that help
massively shift that postpartumperiod?

Speaker 2 (18:18):
Good question.
So baby blues, those are normal.
That's that first two weeks.
It's up to 14 days After birthwhere we feel kind of sad down.
We feel our hormonesfluctuating, but our identity
doesn't change.
Our self-esteem doesn't changewhen we hit postpartum
depression, anxiety.
We're now past two weeks andit's impacting who we are as a

(18:40):
human and our ability tofunction.
Being able to recognize thedifference in those two is
really important.
The sooner we can catchpostpartum depression and
anxiety, or postpartum bipolaranything like that the better.
Right Treatment is always mostsuccessful.
The sooner we catch it, ways wecan support.
We can fill out a birth plan ora postpartum support plan

(19:04):
before babe is here.
Like I give all of my expectingparents when I created, where
they lay out what are yourtypical coping skills or what
are things that help you feelbetter, what do you want to do
daily for yourself and like takeshower, eat protein, whatever
it might be?
What are warning signs thatdepression, anxiety might be

(19:24):
creeping in?
Who are my supportive peopleand what am I going to do next?
Have them put it somewhere likethe fridge where they'll see it
.
Their partner will see it.
That way, if these symptomscome up, we're getting support
as early as we can.

Speaker 1 (19:39):
Yeah, you've already talked about it, you already
have a plan and I think,something powerful that you said
that I don't want to just skipover.
I think so many people wait solong and what's the quote?
It's like the best time toplant a tree was 10 years ago,
the next time is today and Ithink for so many people,
whether it's mental or emotionalor relational health, we wait

(20:02):
until we're drowning, we waituntil we are sinking and then,
like to be honest, recovery isso much harder and takes so much
longer because you've taken onso much more water versus.
Can we catch this and peek andsee, oh, things are shifting in
a direction that like, oh, thisisn't just like a bad day, this

(20:24):
is like a bad day after a badday after a bad day, and like
it's becoming a trend.
It's becoming this whole thingabout me and seeing it and then
finding help and support early.
I think that could belife-changing for so many people
.

Speaker 2 (20:40):
And having a community that can be direct
with you, if they see it.
Sometimes we can't see our ownpain, our own depression.
It's people reflecting it backto us.
So when I had my first I dayfive, I told my husband to take
her back.
I remember being in my masterroom, closet, crying on the
floor.
I didn't want my baby, thatthis baby I had longed for.

(21:03):
I had lost a baby prior to her.
I really wanted this baby.
And yet day five I was like no,nope, don't want it.
That was my husband's cue ofsomething's wrong.
Right, this isn't her, thisisn't her normal behavior, this
doesn't feel like my wife.
And so it took him being braveand saying hey, love.

(21:23):
And so it took him being braveand saying hey, love, it's time
to get some support.
And I'm glad he did right,because I couldn't see it.
I was so far in the yuck andthe weeds, even as a therapist,
with my doctor.
I want to point this out noone's immune, Even as a
therapist.
I couldn't see my own mentalhealth struggle in that moment.
It was overwhelming, it wasflooding.
Couldn't see my own mentalhealth struggle in that moment.

(21:44):
It was overwhelming, it wasflooding.
So having those people thatcould be brave in your world and
help you see that you needsupport.
Not just help you see it, butalso help create a list of
referrals for you.
Sit shoulder to shoulder whileyou make that first phone call.
Go to that first session withyou.
Check up with you after thatfirst session and see how it
went.

(22:05):
Having those consistent peopletruly a blessing if you have
them.
But identify them, tell themthat you need them to keep an
eye for you.
Other things we can do would bethings like mindfulness or you
can look up online.
There's a billion and onemindfulness strategies the
mindfulness meditation, where ittakes our brain and body out of

(22:26):
paths for the future and bringsus into the present moment to
help our nervous system regulateand calm down.
Using our support system whenwe can to get naps, to bring us
food, to do our laundry.
Let people support you.
This whole idea that we've gotto do it all ourselves, we've
got to be that perfect mom andpartner and all the things

(22:49):
without support hogwash.
Use your support system.
We're not meant to do it alone.
Therapy is a big one.
Medication can be a big one.
Medication gets a bad rap.
It's not being safe forpregnancy and postpartum, and
there's actually only twoclasses of medication that
aren't.
The other ones are safe.
And so, talking to apsychiatrist, talking to your

(23:14):
medical team, if that's anoption you want to go to so that
you can enjoy your postpartumand pregnancy, so you can bond
with baby, there are lots ofoptions here, and for partner
too, not just birthing partner.
There are lots of options here,and for my partner too, not
just birthing partner.
I cannot punctuate that enough.

Speaker 1 (23:30):
Yeah, well, because you know both of you have to be
doing well and the better one ofyou gets, the more you can
support the other person.
And I'm curious what are somelike really tangible things
someone can do, like youmentioned mindfulness.
What are some like dailyrituals or routines that you

(23:52):
feel like can really help a mom,especially in that postpartum,
but even after, if she's just ina season where she's struggling
like, what do you recommend forpeople to do?
That's like really tangiblethat someone could put into
practice.

Speaker 2 (24:06):
If it's warm enough outside, take your shoes off,
take your socks off, put yourfeet in the grass, stand there
and just breathe or lay there.
It sounds weird, but thatgrounding ritual helps our
nervous system regulate, unlikeanything else.
That's a big one Forpartnerships.
Doing a 60-second hug takesabout 20 seconds for the human

(24:26):
body to produce oxytocin in thetouch of another.
Say 60 because I want thatoxytocin to really be flowing.
So ideally skin to skin, wherewe're just holding our partner
Not with baby, present babysomewhere safe, not with phones
or thinking about our grocerylist Just for 60 seconds, skin
to skin with our partner,breathing in rhythm with one

(24:52):
another, taking deep breaths.
If you're overwhelmed, if youare getting angry, shutting down
, put the baby in a safe placelike crib.
Walk away, go outside.
We have to give ourselvespermission to step away.
You don't have to just stay inthe yuck.
If babe's in a safe place, evenif babe's crying, babe will be
okay.
Take five minutes to go.
Reset your body.

(25:12):
Your baby's mood can directlyplay based on your nervous
system, your mood.
They regulate based off of you.
So if you're hyped up, you'reresponsible for taking care of
that nervous system, which maymean taking a break.

Speaker 1 (25:27):
Which I think, just as a reminder, even if you don't
have a baby this also appliesto toddlers and little kids and
big kids and teenagers it isokay for you to in fact, not
just okay, but it's really hardto help someone else regulate
when you're dysregulated, and Ithink so many people are

(25:50):
terrified of and I say terrified.
They're mentally not like thisis bad, but emotionally they
have this physiological reactionwhen their baby is crying or
their toddler is throwing a fitof I need to fix this.
And sometimes it's this like Ineed this to stop so that I can
be okay.
And sometimes it's this oh, itis my job to make sure that this

(26:13):
little being is always happyand healthy.
And it's like that's not arealistic goal for your child.
They are going to have a humanexperience and this act of
pulling, even if you justemotionally pull back.
This is something that Iencourage moms on a regular
basis.
You can be standing in front ofyour toddler, but you can pull

(26:35):
your energy and emotion backinto your body and check in on,
like can I feel my spine?
Can I feel my feet on the floor?
Can I get a quick drink?
Can I check in on me Because Ithink so often.
I mean, it's biologicallynecessary for a while for a
mother to be overly attuned tothat baby, right, but especially

(26:57):
as they become toddlers, it'sso important for us to be able
to, like you exist outside ofthat dynamic.
You exist outside of what theywant and need from you, and it's
actually so healthy for yourbaby and for your toddler to
have a mother who exists outsideof them, who has a way to

(27:18):
regulate.
That's not them being regulated, but I think that's very hard
for the modern mother.
One, just cultural norms.
And two, I think we just don'ttalk about how dysregulating it
is Like even to have happy,healthy kids.

Speaker 2 (27:34):
It's hard, and when you think about where we go for
support if we don't have superclose friends, even if we do, we
look to social media, andsocial media has the ability to
shame you for every single thingyou do.
People who are on theirkeyboards think they are the
experts of every single thingyou do, and the reality is we're
all struggling, all of us,right.

(27:56):
So, as a mom, I'm alreadystruggling and I'm like shoot, I
can't breastfeed, I'm notproducing enough milk.
I'm about to go to formula.
Okay, I'm going to do formula,I'm okay with it.
Then I open up Facebook andthere's a post shaming formula
feeding.
Oh my gosh, I'm the worst momthat has ever mommed.
I shouldn't have this baby andwe're off to the races in the

(28:16):
shame cycle.
So now, if I'm already shamedover here and then I can't help
my baby stop crying, I really ama piece of shit.
Why am I a mom?
The amount I hear that, I think, makes me tear up, because moms
are constantly questioningshould I be a mom?
I'm not good enough.
I'm not as good as Susie Q downthe street.
I'm not as good as Bridget overhere or whoever.

(28:39):
You don't have to be.
You get to be your own versionof mom or dad or partner or
whoever the confidence comes in.
Knowing ourselves and knowinghow to regulate ourselves.
Support ourselves Doesn't meanit's not going to be hard.

(29:02):
But can I know that I can be alighthouse when my toddler's
having a breakdown?
I can stand there strongwithout absorbing the storm?
Can I know that if my baby'soverwhelming me, I will walk
away to let myself regulate andbabe will be okay?
Can I know that I'm making thebest choice for my baby, not
Susie Q's baby?
If that's a hard place for youto go, which it often is,

(29:26):
feeling confident, get support.
Go to a women's breastfeedinggroup or a walking group,
somewhere where you feel safesafe to be a mess, to ask the
questions, to fall apart.
Sometimes I don't need to fallapart.

Speaker 1 (29:43):
Yeah, and it's okay to not know everything?
I think so, especiallyespecially the women.
So I became a mom super young,super early, and I had I think I
had a permission of like it'sokay that I don't know what I'm
doing.
Sure, the clients I've met whobecame mothers later in life,
right, like they became a motherin their thirties or their late

(30:05):
twenties, like they had somelife behind them, right Like I
was a literal baby.
When I had my babies I didn'thave a whole life, I didn't have
a career, I didn't have thisbig thing of this is who I am
and this is what I do and I'mvery successful.
I didn't have any of that.
So, like, in some ways, I wasstarting at ground zero and that

(30:25):
gave me a lot because I hadnothing to lose, right?
I think a lot of women come intoI mean even conception, like we
talking about earlier, orhaving a baby, or motherhood or
postpartum, or maybe it's whenyou have your baby, but then you
have to go back to work andthey go.
I don't know what I'm doing,like I technically am doing it,
but I don't feel like I knowwhat I'm doing and it and it

(30:48):
robs them of that confidencejust because they're new at it.
But the reality is is that welive in a culture that we're not
living arm in arm with othermoms.
We don't see how they're doingit.
The only how-tos of motherhoodwe mostly have unless you're in

(31:09):
like a group and this is why Ilove I really feel like
in-person groups are so key formotherhood.
You're only seeing people'scutesy tips and tricks and
strategies and like at the endof the I love a good strategy,
give me a good plan, give me agood habit, give me a good
routine.
I am a sucker for it.
Right, like, sell me on yournew planner.

(31:30):
Shit, I got this.
But what happens when your planhits the fan?
What happens when that morningroutine that worked magically?
You know, you see these.
I even saw something the otherday and this mom was like I wake
up at 4.30am every day to likeget my stuff done.
And she and it was.
I was just kind of interestedin it and I was like I wonder

(31:51):
what the comments say.
And I started reading thecomments and so many people were
like you know, they were sayingthe word to get her magic
morning routine right.
But someone asked the questionhow do you get up that early and
she goes, I go to bed at eight.
They were like, well, how doyou go to bed at eight?
And she was like I just do.
And they were like, well, whatdo you do with the kids?
And she's like that might workfor you right now and I hope it

(32:18):
works for you forever.
It might.
There are some women, but, likefor most women that I know the
women that like, I deeplyintimately get to hear from both
professionally and personally,that morning routine for you at
that 4.30 am, wake up with your8 pm Bedtime.
That works lovely right now,but what about when your kids
start going to school and dosports and you're not eating

(32:40):
dinner till 8 pm?
That might not work anymore.
What if 8 to 10 is the onlytime you get to talk to your
partner or snuggle with yourpartner?
What if that's your only alonetime during the day?
Because your life changes and Ithink that's so hard for us
because we have this culturethat has told us there's a

(33:01):
perfect strategy, there's aperfect way to control this,
there's a perfect way to setthis up that works and then
always works, and I'm over herelike it's a season.
If it works right now, awesome,keep doing it.
But if it stops working, itdoesn't mean you failed and it

(33:21):
doesn't mean you keep having todo that thing.
If it's not working anymore, itmeans you might have to do
something else.
And I think that is a hugestruggle in motherhood that I
don't hear people talk about is,I think, so much of the shame
and the guilt is this tension ofconstantly having to
renegotiate what matters andwhat's important and where my

(33:42):
time and energy and focus isgoing.
And I'm curious, like for you,for like what you know of
motherhood and what you see inthe women that you work with,
what are those moments oftension?
What are those things that likesociety has set us up of?
Like this is the gold standard,that like there might be
something underneath it whereit's like, yeah, that's great.

(34:03):
I'm not saying don't do that,but I am saying it's okay if
that doesn't work for someoneelse 100%.

Speaker 2 (34:10):
I think about control right.
When you talk about that, all Ihear is I want to control.
Yeah, for those who, um, don'tknow yet, parenting is not about
control all the time.
Sometimes shit is just out ofcontrol.
And can you lean into that?
Can you ride with the mask?
Can you kind of just take itseason by season?

(34:31):
A big place, they see this issleep right, especially sleep
regression, sleep training.
Kids need to be in their ownrooms, whatever it might be.
Okay, here's a little insight.
I have an eight-year-old and afour-year-old.
My four-year-old still sleepsin my bedroom.
That shakes people to their corebecause they have all kinds of

(34:53):
assumptions about why.
Reality is she's a pack animaland she feels safest when she's
in our room and I want my kidsto feel safe Full stop.
And for other people, oh mygosh, I can't imagine.
How does that work for you?
It works better for us becauseshe's sleeping through the night
, she's not crying in the middleof the night, she's not scared,
she's regulated.
It works for us.

(35:14):
Other families would never, andthat's okay.
They get to make that choice.
Sleep training at six months.
If you don't do fervor orwhatever, well, you're going to
mess up their sleep for the restof their life.
It's this incredible pressureof between 16 months is your
only sleep window and you mustdo it exactly this way,

(35:34):
otherwise your only sleep windowand you must do it exactly this
way.

Speaker 1 (35:36):
Otherwise X, y and Z.
Is that still a popularmotherhood thing?
Because that was that was hugewhen I was a new mom.
But like I have big kids right,like I have a 13 and a 10 year
old, so like my I'm kind of outof that like sleep scenario, I
thought that could that culturalnarrative had changed a lot?
Not really.

Speaker 2 (35:53):
Cry it out has.
We know that cry it out.
So true, cry it out, put yourbaby in the crib and you leave
them there, no matter how longthey cry.
Fervor is a modified where wecome in at distinct timed
intervals to soothe for about aminute and then leave again.
Cry it out is no longersupported.
It increases cortisol in babes.
It's not good for their neuraldevelopment.
It really is not supported byphysical or mental health

(36:18):
researchers.
Berber, as well as some othermethods, it's still a big thing
that.
And food, so infant-led weaningversus purees, or what is it
called, where you let them havereal food I did it with mine.
Oh, like baby led weaning, yes,and anyway, letting them have

(36:41):
whole foods versus purees, orwhen to stop breastfeeding and
when you should let the babydecide, right?
These are places where womenreally want to control and at
some point too, it's going tohappen.
What's going to happen?
Or we're going to listen to ourgut instinct of what's best for
our house, not my neighbor'shouse, not my best friend's

(37:03):
house, our house.
That is kind of the crux for meof some of this parenting
stress.
That I see is I am supposed to,that I see is I am supposed to.
I should be right.
We're shitting on ourselves allthe time.
My child should be sleepingindependently by X date.

(37:26):
My child should be pottytrained.
My child should be whatever.
And there's a developmentalpiece to some of this and some
of this.
We rush simply because culturetells us to, or friends tell us
to, or our mother-in-law tellsus to, or whatever.
Listen to your gut.
Did I think that four-year-oldsshould be sleeping in their
parents' room at this point?
No, sure didn't.
But slice of humble pie.

(37:47):
She feels safe.
She's not crying every nightsaying I'm scared.
Cool, I am signed up for thatevery night saying I'm scared,
cool, I am signed up for that.

Speaker 1 (38:04):
Yeah, I wish I.
I wish I could go back to how Iparented before I was a parent
man.
I was so good, I was such agood parent before I was an
actual parent.
But no, like all jokes aside,the ideas I had about how I
would parent and who I would beand what it would look like was
so different than the actualthing, and I mean one.

(38:25):
There's like the amount ofchoices I made where, like I
thought I would do one thing andthen I became this completely
different person.
I'm sure my whole family waslike what the the hell is
happening?
Right Cause, like in my story,right, I went from like hospital
birth seeing an OB to, oh, I'mgoing to do a hospital midwife
birth too, I'm going to do ahome birth.
And right, I'm, how old was I?

(38:46):
I was like 20.
And like I didn't think like I.
Thankfully, I had some peoplein my world where, like that was
a thing and that was normal andit was talked about.
But there were so many peoplewho were like I'm sure they were
like, what is she doing?
And then I was wearing the babyeverywhere and I brought the
baby to mops.
I can remember.
I don't remember anyone elsewho kept their baby with them

(39:08):
and then would just nurse themin the middle of mops.
The babies went to the nurseryand I would have several moms be
like you need to just go puther in the nursery and I'm like
we're good, she's fine.
She hates the nursery.
She freaks out.

Speaker 2 (39:20):
We're good, I'm good.

Speaker 1 (39:22):
She's good.
That's everywhere and I'm like,if you love putting your baby
in the nursery, great, this iswhat we're doing and it works
for us.
But there's so many things thatI chose differently and I'm so
glad I saw other women in mycommunity because it gave me
this realization of like there'sso many different ways to be a
really good mom, there's so manydifferent ways to be a really

(39:44):
good mom and I had to find who Iwas, what I was good at as a
mom.
And, let's be honest, I'dprobably be a different mom if I
had a baby today than 13 yearsago, becca.
I would be a different person.
I'm a different mom.
If I had a baby today than 13years ago, becca, I would be a
different person.
I'm a different mom.
I need different things.
I want different things.
All that to say, I think so manyof us we have this pressure,

(40:07):
this script that we don'tlogically know of, of what we're
going to be like, what it'sgoing to feel like, what it's
going to look like, and I thinkthere is a massive grief, there
is a massive identity change forso many women of I didn't know
it would look like this, Ididn't know it would feel like
this.
I thought, if I could just getthe right formula, this was me.

(40:30):
Super high control, superperfectionistic I would have
never used that word for myself.
But I came into motherhood LikeI'm going to be the best at
this, I'm going to read thebooks, I'm going to do all the
things.
And then I think of, like agreat example of this.
I was doing all of the thingsto make sure my daughter was
super healthy.
Right, I had.
I was like for her firstbirthday I kid you not, I got so

(40:53):
much shit for this I made her agluten-free pancake and a
dairy-free yogurt as the icingfor her birthday cake, because
she didn't have sugar, shedidn't have food.
I love that Becca.
Right, and I'm not mocking momswho do that For me I was.
It was fear and it was anxietyand you know what.
That baby got into preschooland she was sick 50 times more

(41:16):
than any other kid.
I nursed her forever.
I breastfed, I did all of theright things.
I did all of the right things.
I remember I spent the first fewyears of like those school in a
constant panic because she wasalways sick and I kept thinking
what am I doing wrong?
What supplements do we need?
Oh, it's because we're not.
And it's like, yes, logically,now I can look back and be like,

(41:40):
oh, I was so anxious and I wasso controlling and I was, so I
was grasping for control.
And I remember, you know, I'mgrateful I had.
I had a friend whose daughterhad some really intense medical
needs and we were talking andshe was like I'm constantly
fearful, my daughter will die,but she had that lived reality,

(42:00):
like she actually had somereasons why that might happen.
I really didn't.
And all of a sudden I was likeI have that so many times, I'll
put her to bed.
And it's like what Brene Browntalks about, that like that pre
what, what does she call it?
Dang it she has a reallybeautiful phrase for it where,
like you, feel this immenseamount of love and joy.

(42:21):
And then in the next, cripplingfear and grief of like what if
this is taken away from me?
But I think in that season Ihad to learn like this is not in
my control, like there's noamount of doing the right things
that prevent her from gettingsick, because getting sick is

(42:41):
part of the human experience.

Speaker 2 (42:44):
I mean.
Part of that's primal, though.
Right, we have this primalinstinct to protect our young.
Think caveman times.
Here Men had a primal instinctto spread their seed as far and
fast as possible before gettingeaten by that saber-toothed
tiger.
Women were responsible forfinding a good partner that
could protect them and thenkeeping the young safe.

(43:04):
That primal drive has not left.
It is in every species that weknow of, well, most every
species.
Some species eat their young.
Don't eat your young.

Speaker 1 (43:15):
On the worst of days, you're not eating your young.
I didn't eat my kid today.

Speaker 2 (43:20):
Win.
But we have this primal driveand people want to logic their
way out of it.
Reality is those are twodifferent parts of the brain and
you're not going to logicyourself out of something primal
and instinctual.
You're not.
That part of the brain is notmeant to be louder than the
protective part of your brain.
Think about if there's a bear.

(43:40):
You're going to protect yourbaby.
You're also not going to bethinking logic of how to get out
of the situation.
You're going to be acting onimpulse.
That's by design.
When we can lean into that andaccept that part of ourselves
rather than shame, that part ofourselves becomes much more
tolerable and in fact we show itrespect.

(44:01):
We meet ourselves differentlywhen we see that it's not a me
problem.
It's part of being a parent,it's part of human species.
It's part of whatever.
It's not.
If you could just do this thing, you could just be less
controlling.
If you could just be lessanxious, less depressed, less

(44:21):
whatever.
It's not a choice.
You didn't choose into it.
You can't choose your way outof it.
You can't choose into anxietyand you can't choose your way
out of it.
You can make choices to supportit, to facilitate healing or
growth, but you cannot let mesay it doubly loud here you

(44:41):
cannot choose your way out ofpostpartum depression, anxiety,
bipolar psychosis none of it,none of it.
It's not your fault.
It's not your fault that yourtoddler is making you want to
climb the walls.
It's not your fault that yourtoddler is making you want to
climb the walls.
It's not your fault that youget angry and overwhelmed it's
not.
But you do have aresponsibility of choice of how

(45:04):
you're going to treat it, howyou're going to support it.
That is where theresponsibility comes when we
stop judging everyone for howthey're feeling and start
supporting how we can dosomething differently you know
how much more beautiful that'dbe.

Speaker 1 (45:22):
Yeah, it's like you know.
I look back to that season andit's like you know, my nervous
system thought everything was abear and that wasn't my fault.
There was a lot of differentreasons and now I you know,
cognitively knowing why didn'tactually change it.
So there was a season where Iwas just obsessed with like well
, why?
Like, why is this so hard forme?
But what helped more than thatis okay.

(45:44):
How do I teach my body and mynervous system and my soul to
not think everything is a bear,to be able to be present with
someone, with my toddler havinga meltdown, and knowing she's
safe, she's okay, I'm okay, Idon't feel okay, I don't feel

(46:06):
okay, but I am safe, andlearning those tools and those
skills.
I didn't want to have to dothat.
I thought it would all justcome natural to me.
I was someone.
I was someone who was, I guessyou could say, obsessed with
becoming a mom.
That's all I ever wanted.
That's all I ever wanted to dowas be a mom and I came into it

(46:26):
thinking like I'm going to be sogood at this.
And there was a lot of like.
I did have a natural nurturingand nature, like I'm really
grateful for, for that aspect ofmy personality.
And when I got to the toddlerphase of it for me like and I've
I did have I had postpartumdepression and anxiety that I
dealt with and that almost felteasier than the toddler phase,

(46:51):
even once I was out of thepostpartum stuff, because that's
when my nervous system and mytrauma shit really hit the fan.
That's when I started havinglike some stuff going on where I
was going.
I can't do this on my own andthat wasn't, I think, so many
people.
They have that moment come upand it's like a shame thing and

(47:13):
I think for me it was for awhile until it was like I can't
do this.
How do I find people who canteach me how?
Because so much of it honestlywas skills.
It was skill sets of nervoussystem regulation and conflict
strategies and boundaries andlegitimate parenting strategies.
I did need different parentingstrategies because the ones that

(47:34):
I knew from growing up theydidn't work with the way that I
wanted to parent but I didn'tknow how else to do it.

Speaker 2 (47:41):
And knowing development, what's
developmentally normal andappropriate.
Yeah, what do we actually needto correct and what don't we
need to correct?
I love that you bring up thatexample of parenting.
So I think back to say myoldest Newborn stage for me,
nope, hated it Awful, probablyfor both, but especially with my
first.
My husband, excellent withbabies, so he led in the newborn

(48:07):
stage.
It was not a traditional setupin that way.
Toddler stage, oh, I can dealwith temper tantrums for him.
He's like like you, no, nope,no, thank you.
And so what you think might beyour strength or what being a
good parent looks like, changesby season.
Middle of the night wake-ups Iwasn't the person doing that.

(48:27):
Besides, to nurse, my husbandand I would rotate.
So I would wake up first, gonurse babe and then I would tap
him and I'd go back to bed whilehe put babe back down.
Know your strengths, know yourweaknesses we all have them.
It doesn't make you a badparent, it just makes you new
that there are different partsof you that are stronger than
others.
Yeah, and I love that you pointthat out, because we both have

(48:50):
a lot of training in this space,have great wisdom in this space
, and yet it didn't spare youfrom toddlerhood and it didn't
spare me from the newborn stageat all.

Speaker 1 (49:00):
Yeah, Well, and even I mean I even think of the
teenage phase.
We started getting into theteenage phase and I went, oh, I
need new strategies, I need anew skillset, I need a higher
emotional regulation andintelligence, I need better
energetic boundaries.
Right Like I started going, oh,I need to evolve and grow with

(49:20):
my kids, and I think that issomething unexpected for a lot
of people and I'm curious ifyou've had this experience too.
A lot of the women I've workedwith not all of them, but some
of them they are emotionally,mentally, relationally.
They continue to mature andgrow.
Their parents are the samepeople their parents used to be,

(49:41):
so they're looking at theirparent and very much
fundamentally, their parenttoday is very much still the
person who raised them.
They are emotionally developedpast their parents and so they
literally don't even havesomeone to look to to say, oh,
it's normal for me in my 40s, asa very successful grown adult,

(50:04):
to still have struggles that I'mfiguring out how to overcome,
to still have challenges that Icome up to and go.
I don't have the muscle forthis, I don't have the backbone
for this, or I don't have theflexibility, I don't know how to
let go of control of this thing.
That is such a beautiful thing.
That, I think, is I think it'sunique in this generation and I

(50:25):
think we go to the extremes ofit.
Sometimes we do as all thingsright.
Your greatest weakness is sooften your greatest strength,
under overutilized.
But I think so many womenthat's.
They struggle as parentsbecause you're growing up in a

(50:45):
new way along with your kids,and I don't.
I don't know if the women thatI'm working with ever saw that
happen in their parents.
I don't think they ever sawtheir parents grow up.
Their parents didn't changetheir minds.
Their parents didn't own badbehaviors, if you will.
Their parents didn't sharemental, emotional health
struggles in adulthood.
It was either we're miserableand we stay that way and this is

(51:09):
just the way that it is, ortheir parents gave off the very
authoritarian I know everything.
I've got this.
You're always the problem, butthey're still like that as
adults.
It's just, it's somethinginteresting to me.

Speaker 2 (51:24):
It happens more than people might think, where
there's the rigidity betweengenerations, especially right
now, this chasm between the tworight as I talk about say.
I'll use this example with mygirls.
We are big on body autonomy.
What that means is they get tochoose where their body is in
space, who touches it theirboundaries, not me, not anyone

(51:47):
else.
They get to choose it.
So when we say goodbye, to saygrandparents, I'll say do you
want to give grandma a hug?
My daughters have the right tosay no without guilt.
So not saying well, it'd benice if, or you're gonna make
grandma sad if Nope.
If they say no, cool, we'redone.
That was a big one for my dad.

(52:09):
My mom is deceased, so for mydad and my in-laws to adjust to,
not because they were doinganything wrong, but because
grandkids hug their grandparents.
This is weird, and so there'sthis dissonance that's happening
, that being transparent oursupport system has fully come on
board with, but that's notalways the case for everyone.

(52:30):
There is a pushback, there is awell, you just don't know
anything.
I know, I'm older than you, I'myour elder, I'm your superior,
I'm your parent, and it is apushback.
There is a well, you just don'tknow anything.
I know, I'm older than you, I'myour elder, I'm your superior,
I'm your parent, and it is a bigtension point.
Especially, too, there's adifference in the way you and
your partner want to parent orinteract with this, or how your
parents and your in-lawsinteract with this.

(52:50):
It can create massive tensionin relationships.

Speaker 1 (52:54):
Yeah, oh, I mean, I was noticing.
The other day I was talking towho was it, I don't remember but
I was realizing that, like somany women that I've worked with
, they're not just navigatingtheir relationship to their kids
in the parenting realm, in themotherhood realm.
A huge thing that comes up isthey're re-navigating their

(53:18):
relationship to their parents.
It massively changes for themwhen they have a baby and for
some women it's the I thought myparents would be here for me
especially like the mom comes up, that mother wound, that mother
longing of like I wanted my momto be here, whether she's here
and she's not here, or she'sgone, she's passed away or she's

(53:41):
moved away.
There's this like, there's thislonging for a relationship to a
mother and a father.
That changes for so many womenwhen they become a parent.
And I don't feel like that istalked about outside of.
If you have horribly toxicparents, I think there's that
extreme, there's that like, oh,you have your parents who you're

(54:02):
no contact with because they'reawful, terrible people.
Well, for most people andgranted, I'm working with a very
specific community of people, Iguess you could say I'm not a
therapist, so I'm not workingwith someone who's in this like
extremely harsh, awful dynamicwith a narcissistic right, but
that's the rarity that's not thecommon, but that yes.

(54:24):
But I think that culture tellsus these scripts and these
boundaries of how to cut themoff, and it's like either full
access or no access where Ithink most, most women, are
walking through this.
How do I navigate having arelationship with these people?
That's changed.
They the what they expect fromme and need from me.

(54:46):
I'm not that person anymore.
I'm not that girl.
I'm not.
I'm not okay with thoseboundaries anymore.
I don't want to relate to thisanymore.
I don't know how to talk to mymom about this, or I don't want
to relate to this anymore.
I don't know how to talk to mymom about this.

Speaker 2 (54:57):
I don't want to hurt her feelings.
That happens all the time of.
I'm afraid to say this is myboundary or this is how we're
parenting, because you, myparent, is going to take that
personally.
So, instead of advocating forself, I tuck it in.
Because I don't want to makeyou sad which we can't make
anyone feel anything, so fucks.
Because I don't want to makeyou sad which we can't make
anyone feel anything, so box.

(55:17):
But I don't want to make youfeel sad, or I don't want to
feel guilty, so I just keep itto myself and live in this
dissonance within my own body.

Speaker 1 (55:24):
Yeah, there's so many dynamics and I wonder if we, if
this is a good place to notwrap it up but to end the
conversation of think of justthe dynamics we talked about in
this call.
We're not even talking abouthormones.
We're not even talking abouttrauma histories.
We're not even talking aboutthe relationship you have with

(55:47):
your co-parent and your home.
Taking skills right.
Like I think of me as a new mom.
I didn't have the skills builtup.
I had the logic of what to do,but I didn't have the embodiment
of like taking care of a home.
It's like there's so manylayers to who you are and what

(56:07):
you're walking through as aperson in this season.

Speaker 2 (56:12):
And it can be your socioeconomic status, your
access to childcare.
Are your friendships deep,quality ones where you can be
authentic, or are they surfacelevel?
And that's what you have tohave, because what other option
do you have?
Are you alone?
Do you have a support system?
There are so many factors tothis, even emotions like fear or

(56:32):
anger towards parts of oursystem, towards ourself.
Maybe we didn't choose ourpregnancy.
Maybe you could go on foreveron these contacts and each one
of those colors your livedexperience.
So as we talk about this, it'sgoing to sound to some people
like broad brushstrokes orthat's not me and that's true,

(56:55):
because there are such a widevariety of experiences and
beliefs and values.
The key part here is what areyour beliefs, what are your
values?
How do you embody those?
How do you support yourselfwhen things get hard?
How do you lean on whatevernetwork you've got around you?

(57:17):
How do you not blame yourselffor struggling with parenthood,
struggling with feeling likeshit, struggling with getting
out of bed?
It's not your fault.
Parenthood and mental health isa brute.
It is a long period of timethat impacts people for a
lifetime and it is not somethingwe should be shaming people in

(57:37):
and out of.
We should be rallying becauseit is hard Across the board.
It is hard.
If someone tells you that ithasn't been hard for them,
chances are they're lying to youbecause it is.
Yeah, rocks your entire worldwell, and I do.

Speaker 1 (57:52):
I do think there are some people where it genuinely
hasn't been that hard for themand that doesn't mean your
experience, right and like that.
That could be their think ofall of these different layers.
It could quite literally be allof those layers.
And as we wrap this up I'mthinking of how many different

(58:15):
layers, because I think this canfeel overwhelming when you
start thinking of how manydifferent issues are on a mom,
and I think that's one of thebiggest things is it can be so
overwhelming to have to thinkabout and feel into all of these
different things and all of thedifferent things that you're
choosing and not choosing, orthat you have the illusion of
choice.
For, and here's what I will sayis, it's always the straw that

(58:38):
breaks the camel's back.
People like that's such acommon saying, but like I always
add to that but it's the littlestraws that make sure the
camel's back doesn't break,these little layers of support
and these small choices thatseem so insignificant.
I think, especially inpostpartum, or even not
postpartum, even if we'retalking about a grief season or

(58:59):
a hard healing season or you'rein a space where you're
struggling you have to bringyour perspective back into what
is a choice I'm making right nowthat supports me.
What is one small hinge, what isone small thing I can do that
will take care of me?
That will take care of one ofthose straws?

(59:21):
Is it calling a therapist?
Is it making a post in yourFacebook group of who has a
therapist in the area that theyrecommend and then meet three of
them?
Maybe that's your step one.
A post in your Facebook groupof who has a therapist in the
area that they recommend andthen meet three of them?
Maybe that's your step one.
Maybe your step one is taking anap.
Maybe your step one isliterally just calling a
girlfriend and saying I'mstruggling.

(59:41):
I think I need help.
I need someone to know that.
I need someone to help me knowwhat to do next.
Someone tell me what to dobecause I don't know what to do
next.
Someone tell me what to dobecause I don't know what to do
anymore.
Those small little hinges,those small little layers of
support of.
It's okay if you can't figureall of it out right now.
It's okay if you can't make itall better today or tomorrow or

(01:00:03):
after a couple of therapysessions.
It's going to take some timeand you're worth that effort.
I'm curious for you what aresome of those small little steps
or those hinge points thatsomeone can do if they're
struggling?

Speaker 2 (01:00:17):
Good question Take the shower.
Don't underestimate the powerof a hot shower, even if it's
three minutes.
Take the shower, put on normalclothes that you feel good in,
go outside, put your feet in thegrass.
You heard me mention thatbefore.
It is worth repeating.
Reaching out to our people,having someone bring you a meal,

(01:00:41):
eating something or drinkingsomething that feels good for
you.
It's the little things thateither bring calm to your body
or bring joy to your body.
It doesn't have to be massivethings, it can be just little
moments While baby's napping.
Please don't do the dishes.
Take a nap, do some yoga, dosomething that feels good for

(01:01:02):
your soul, not just in serviceof your household.

Speaker 1 (01:01:07):
Yeah, yeah, you know, as you were saying that I
thought of, there was a seasonwhere I remember feeling
something's got to give,something's going to give,
something's going to give, andthen, like this thing rose up
inside me.
I don't know if it was God, Idon't know if what it was, I
don't know if I heard itsomewhere, but it was like I
don't know what it was.

(01:01:27):
I don't know if I heard itsomewhere, but it was like
something's got to give.
But it cannot be me.
And on my worst, hardestmoments, still to this day, it's
not just then, it's not justwhat I did then, it's what I do
now.
Sometimes there are momentswhere I say something's got to
give, it will not be me, itcannot be me.
It can be the dishes.
It can be not cooking dinner.
We're doing frozen nuggies.

(01:01:48):
It can be anything but me.
I can't be the thing that gives, I can't be the thing that
snaps, and whatever it takes, Ihave to have my back because
it's me for me.

Speaker 2 (01:02:00):
Bingo and we think of that as selfish right Of taking
care of myself.
As selfish, I should befocusing on baby, partner, house
, all the extra things.
Think about the corny metaphorof the airplane I put the mask
on my child first and I pass out.
Who's going to help me?
No one.
I have to put mine on first inorder to help my child, help my

(01:02:23):
partner.
You have to take care of you ifyou're going to have capacity,
strength, the give a fucks totake care of others.
If I'm dysregulated and worn out, my baby's going to be
dysregulated right along with me, because I'm responsible for
regulating their nervous system.
It will make it so much harderand that's really rich, coming

(01:02:46):
from someone who struggledthrough postpartum right along
with you.
But if you can take just alittle bit, take that five
minutes outside and take a deepbreath.
Wear clothes that arecomfortable.
Don't put on clothes that feeltight, restrictive, itchy.
Let your nervous system have abreak there.
Eat foods that feel good foryour gut.

(01:03:07):
Why?
Because we don't want toirritate the nervous system
further.
Do the things that again bringyou calm and bring you joy.
That is how we cope throughthis, and they can be little
things that stack up to somereally big outcomes.

Speaker 1 (01:03:22):
Yeah Well, and I love that.
You said it's coming rich,coming from me.
But here's the thing thismedicine is easy to talk about.
It tastes terrible to take andI think that's the thing is.
I think social media itglamifies and glorifies because
you see these people doing itand they look happy.
When I go on a mental healthwalk, 10 out of 10 times I don't

(01:03:43):
feel good.
I'm going to walk because Idon't feel good and I need to do
something, but I think peopledon't talk about that.
Enough of it doesn't alwaysfeel good to take the medicine
you need.
Taking care of yourselfself-care doesn't always feel
good and gooey.
It's like dragging a teenagerto be like you need to shower.

(01:04:08):
You haven't showered enough.
Or you think of a toddler.
You think, okay, if you have atoddler, this is the easiest.
Sometimes you parentingyourself.
Sometimes self-care for you isgoing to be like having your
toddler eat vegetables or takinga bath right, getting a toddler
to do the most simple thingsthat you know is good for them

(01:04:28):
and they don't want to do it.
That is how self-care is goingto feel for you sometimes, and
often the stuff you need themost.
It doesn't necessarily alwaystaste great when you first start
doing it.
It doesn't always feel easy,like I think of my super type, a
perfectionistic moms.
Rest does not feel good atfirst.

(01:04:49):
Creativity and letting go ofcontrol does not feel pleasant.
It feels like death, it feelsterrible and it's like, yeah,
because you're not used to itand yet it's the corny attitude
you have to go through the rainto get to the rainbow.

Speaker 2 (01:05:08):
It might get heavier in terms of rain before you see
that rainbow.
It might feel kind of, youmight feel guilty, you might
feel shame, you might feelwhatever on the journey there
and then there's that moment ofoh.
I'm really glad I did that forme today.
The more and more you havethose moments, the easier it
gets, and sometimes life is sobusy that we think to ourselves

(01:05:37):
like I don't have time.
I want you to look at yourphone usage, look at how many
minutes you spent on socialmedia, your games.
You've got time, I promise.
I'm asking for five minutes,not five hours.
Yeah, five minutes, you have toallocate it.

Speaker 1 (01:05:49):
Yeah, you have to make it a priority.
You have to get ruthless.
You have to get ruthless aboutit in the same way that you
would If your kid was struggling.
If your kid was struggling, howmuch would you pay a therapist
If your kid was struggling theway you were?
If your kid was struggling, youwould make.
You would find the time.
I promise you you would findthe time.

(01:06:09):
And like, is it easier for somepeople to find the time?
Yes, it is.
You still have to find the time, you still have to find the
money, you still have to findthe space and even if it's in
the margins ideally you're notcaring for yourself in the
margins and there are absolutelyseasons and days where, if
that's where it happens, that'swhere it happens Again, those

(01:06:31):
small little moments.
They build up.
They build up either to supportyou and help you feel better,
or they add up and they keepmaking you feel worse and worse
and worse.
Are you?

Speaker 2 (01:06:44):
good at saying no, this idea that no is a bad thing
, no, no is sometimes advocatingfor self.
If you think about somethingyou can have to do that day
besides work, because work is anecessity Say it's going to a
social function or having peopleover If your body is telling
you I don't want to do this,this doesn't feel good, say no.

(01:07:05):
I encourage you to practice itwithout guilt and shame
afterwards right, really wholeand body brace of the word no.
There is so much freedom to befound in nope, not today.

Speaker 1 (01:07:20):
I love that so much.
Thank you so much for being onthe podcast, for having me.

Speaker 2 (01:07:24):
I could talk about this for days.
I know Me too.

Speaker 1 (01:07:28):
It's the best.
I thank you guys so much forjoining us today, and we would
love to hear from you If youloved this episode.
We would love to hear, like,what are your nuggets that you
took away?
What questions do you have?
What would you add to it?
We would love to hear from you.
So definitely, leave a comment,leave a review, send one of us
a DM.

(01:07:48):
Our info will be in the shownotes, but thank you so much,
kim, for being here today.

Speaker 2 (01:07:54):
Thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:07:56):
Thanks for joining me on today's episode of the
Motherhood Mentor Podcast.
Make sure you have subscribedbelow so that you see all of the
upcoming podcasts that arecoming soon.
I hope you take today's episodeand you take one aha moment,
one small, tangible piece ofwork that you can bring into
your life, to get your hands alittle dirty, to get your skin

(01:08:18):
in the game.
Don't forget to take upaudacious space in your life.
If this podcast moved you, ifit inspired you, if it
encouraged you, please do me afavor and leave a review, send
an episode to a friend.
This helps the show gain moretraction.
It helps us to support moremoms, more women, and that's

(01:08:40):
what we're doing here.
So I hope you have an awesomeday, take really good care of
yourself and I'll see you nexttime.