Intrusive Thoughts, Postpartum Struggles, and Permission to Breathe with Dr. Kim Murray

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Motherhood will stretch you in ways you never imagined, but you don’t have to face it alone. In this raw conversation with Dr. Kim Murray, licensed marriage & family therapist and perinatal mental health specialist, we break open the truths no one is talking about on Instagram or in the baby books especially around postpartum mental health struggles. 

We cover:

1. Why perinatal mental health starts before conception and lasts years after birth
2. The sobering reality: 1 in 5 mothers experience postpartum depression or anxiety
3. Why intrusive thoughts are more common than you think (and not a sign you’re broken)
4. The impact of a baby’s arrival on marriage and how to protect your relationship
5. What “maternal gatekeeping” really is and why it fuels burnout
6. Small but powerful tools for survival: grounding, 60-second hugs, and the radical act of saying no

Above all, you’ll learn why the mantra “Something’s got to give-but it cannot be me”might just save your sanity.

Whether you’re planning for pregnancy, navigating the newborn haze, chasing toddlers, or redefining your identity as your kids grow, this episode offers validation, strategies, and hope.

Be sure to grab Dr. Kim Murray's Postpartum Support Plan 

About Dr. Kim Murray: 

I am a proud mother of two girls, with a loving husband whom I have called mine for almost 20 years.

Dr. Kim Murray https://www.safehavenfamilytherapy.com/

If you’re ready to stop living on autopilot and start leading your life with deep presence, I’d love to work with you. Book a free interest call here: Click Here

💌 Want more? Follow me on Instagram @themotherhoodmentor for somatic tools, nervous system support, and real-talk on high-functioning burnout, ambition, healing perfectionism, and motherhood. And also pretty epic meme drops.

🎧 Did you love this episode? Be sure to follow and please take a quick moment to leave a review and send this episode to a friend. I'd love to hear from you on how this podcast impacted you, send me a DM or an email.

Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_00 (00:02):
Welcome to the Motherhood Metric podcast.
I'm Becca, a somatic healingpractitioner and a holistic life
coach from Mother's podcast isfor you.
You can expect honestconversations and incredible
tests that every area.
This is strategy for what we dois I believe we can do this.

(00:28):
I love combining deep energywith 3D systems, and no longer
talking about what this seasonis really like.
So grab whatever weird healthbeverage you're currently into,
and let's get into it.
Welcome to today's episode ofthe Motherhood Mentor Podcast.
Today I have a super specialguest with me, and we're gonna

(00:50):
be talking a lot about perinatalmental health, but also just
about being a mom and mentalhealth in general and how we
take care of ourselves, whatthat actually looks like, the
struggles, the ways that wesupport ourselves through those
struggles.
And will you just take a momentand introduce yourself for us,
Kim?
Of course.

SPEAKER_02 (01:10):
So my name is Kim Murray.
I am a licensed marriage andfamily therapist with my
doctorate and about 13 years ofexperience behind that.
I love what I do.
I get to support moms, partners,couples in all things mental
health, most notably here,perinatal mental health.

(01:31):
So from the period of thinkingabout conception through the
first few years of life.
And I feel honored to do what Ido.
I love what I do.
Um, I work a lot with mycommunity.
I own a group private practicecalled Safe Haven Family
Therapy, where we support thewhole family starting at the age
of two and a half, all the wayup.
So it's really neat.

SPEAKER_00 (01:53):
I love it.
When you were talking about thebefore, this isn't where I plan
to start, but I feel like it isimportant for so many women,
their journey to perinatalmental health starts before
conception, even.
It starts when they're startingto think about getting pregnant.
Or, you know, I think of thewomen who have fertility
struggles or secondary fertilitystruggles, or they have a lot of

(02:16):
stuff that comes up even beforethe pregnancy.
I'm curious, like, what is thatjourney like for women?
I think what like what'sunexpected for those women?

SPEAKER_02 (02:30):
And I would argue it even starts with like mate
selection, right?
Our parents give us a script, orour caregivers give us a script
of what kind of partner to lookfor, of what makes a good dad or
a mother, what doesn't make agood partner.
And we select based on that too.
So it starts even well beforethat, as we figure out our mate.

(02:53):
Women and men go into this,typically thinking just about
the excitement, the joy, whichis a beautiful thing.
But rarely do we take time topause and think about what are
the challenges we're gonna face?
Where are the speed bumps ourmarriage is gonna hit?
Where am I gonna struggleindividually?

(03:14):
Even as, and you and I werechatting about this prior to
recording, even as mental healthprofessionals ourselves, I
thought I had it all together.
I was ready to be a mom.
I've studied this for years,it's gonna be totally fine.
Had my first, I was not totallyfine, right?
It was rough.
Postpartum was rough, pregnancywas rough, and I wasn't ready

(03:38):
for that.
So I think for people going intothis, we see in Hollywood that
fertility is easy.
That you have sex one time andyou're pregnant, and pregnancy
is beautiful and you're glowing,and labor is kind of hard, but
it's okay.
And then we have this beautifulbaby.
There's so much more to it.

(03:59):
And for some women and theirpartners, it's even more
difficult than say theirfriends, their family, or
whatever Hollywood notionsthey've seen of pregnancy and
birth.

SPEAKER_00 (04:11):
Yeah.
Well, and I think, you know, oneof my biggest soapboxes is when
I was pregnant, my so my firstpregnancy, which ended in a
miscarriage, even just the waythe doctors treated me, it was
like, here's this physiologicalthing that's happening.
There's a baby, there's not ababy.
There was literally, I mean,one, which just my heart breaks

(04:32):
and I get so mad thinking aboutthis provider didn't even talk
to me at all about what washappening.
It was the worst experience.
But even moving into my secondpregnancy, I was at first in the
beginning, it was like, oh,you're pregnant and you're gonna
have a baby.
But I was having so much mentaland emotional.

(04:54):
I mean, one, I had HG, but I washaving you two, sister.
Oh, the worst.
So high premises bravadero.
I'm so happy for you.

SPEAKER_02 (05:04):
For the birds.
That is why we stopped at two.
High premises is for the birds.

SPEAKER_00 (05:09):
It's but like I remember having these care
providers just talking to meabout what's happening to the
baby.
And, you know, there's the appsthat tell you how big the baby
is, and there's the books thatlike what to expect when you're
expecting.
And I'm so grateful that I foundmyself kind of by accident in
this world where I had midwivesand women around me who weren't

(05:31):
just talking about the how ofparenting.
They were talking about what itactually feels like to go
through that.
I think of like the women whosurrounded me at like La Vete
League meetings, where it wasn'tjust how do I feed my baby?
It's me breaking down in tears,being like, I think I know how
I'm doing, but I don't know howI'm doing, and I don't know if

(05:51):
I'm doing okay, and I don't knowif I'm doing this the right way
or the wrong way.
And there's like 50 millionexperts who are telling me
different things.
And some of it doesn't reallyfeel right, but like I don't,
when they're like, trust yourintuition, I didn't know how to
trust my intuition as a new mom.
I wasn't connected to my gut.
I all the things that I thoughtI would do as a mom, the ways I

(06:15):
thought I would parent, the kindof parent I would want to be,
the formula or the breastfeedingor how I would birth, all of
that felt deeply emotional.
And it woke me up.
I had previous trauma and all ofthat kind of just cracked open
in pregnancy and postpartum forme.
And I'm so, so grateful that Iwas in a community where I had

(06:39):
language for that.
I had people who saw that andsupported that because I think
of women who, you know, I workwith a lot of women who they
were very successful.
They had these really beautiful,wonderful concepts of self.

SPEAKER_02 (06:54):
Sure.

SPEAKER_00 (06:55):
And then they came into parenting or pregnancy or
miscarriages or trying toconceive.
And even just that was like,wait, what do you mean I'm not
in control?
Is brutal.

unknown (07:07):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (07:07):
It takes your sense of self, your core, your sense
of identity.
Yeah.
Right.
Because we believe whatever wesee, we believe the things on
social media.
We don't talk about highpremises or miscarriages or
infertility.
It's left in this box of tabooand shame, and keep it to
yourself.

(07:28):
And so we don't hear thosetestimonies.
We don't know how to supportwomen, they go through it.
We don't expect it for ourselvesbecause it's all tucked away.
And all we hear about are thesereally positive stories, which
sometimes they appear positive,right?
Think about social media hereare highlight reel.
And women are actuallystruggling.

(07:49):
Their partners are actuallystruggling, but they're too
afraid to say it.

SPEAKER_00 (07:53):
Yeah.
It can be well, and I think,yeah, and it's and it's hard too
because I think there's thatpositive side of motherhood
that's shared.

SPEAKER_02 (08:01):
Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (08:01):
And then I think there's this other side of
motherhood where it's just allmiserable and doom and gloom,
and you're gonna hate yourpartner, you're gonna hate
yourself, you're gonna loseyourself.
And it becomes this whole storythat I think we can get caught
in.
But like there's a reality tothat story for so many women.
And I think women who are tryingto be so positive about it and
tuck it away for themselves orfor the culture, it's like, how

(08:24):
do we talk about these things ina way that allows for the human
experience without becomingvictims to this story of
everything's miserable and it'sterrible?
When that is part of the realityfor some people, for some
seasons.
I'm curious when someone comesto you, what are some of the

(08:45):
first things they ask or saywhen they're looking for
therapy?
Because I think for so manywomen, they're like, How do I
know what's normal?
How do I know if I'm okay?
Because at least with thepopulation I work with, with the
woman I work with, they'realways gonna be okay.
They're always gonna tell youthey're fine, they're always
gonna feel okay because they'renever not in control.

(09:08):
That's fair.

SPEAKER_02 (09:09):
Often it's often it's moms who've had one baby
before and recognize I don'twant to go through whatever that
experience was again.
So postpartum depression,postpartum anxiety.
Sometimes it's first-time momsthat their partner said, Hey,
it's time to get support, orthey're recognizing I don't like
my baby, or I don't feel good inmy skin, or I'm thinking about

(09:32):
suicide, or whatever it mightbe.
But often it's the mom who'salready been through it, who's
afraid of doing it again.
Yeah.
When I have partners and mamascome in, one of the first
questions I often get asked is Iwant to tell you what I'm
thinking, or I want to tell youwhat I'm feeling, but I'm afraid
you're gonna take my baby.
I'm afraid you're gonna reportme to CPS because they're having

(09:55):
say intrusive thoughts.
Intrusive thoughts might be, Ijust pictured throwing my baby
over the balcony.
Do I actually intend throwing mybaby over the balcony?
No.
But that thought went through mybrain, it felt icky.
So it's ego dystonic, meaning itdoesn't agree with me.
And now I'm afraid if I tellanyone that, one, I'm the only
person that's ever gone throughthis.

(10:16):
Two, people are gonna think Iactually want to kill my baby.
And three, I'm gonna facejudgment and scrutiny, and I
can't handle that right now.
So that's a big one when peoplecome in of a fear of really
sharing how hard it is.
If I say I'm struggling toshower more than once a week,
are you gonna think I'mneglecting my baby?
I'm struggling withbreastfeeding.

(10:38):
Are you gonna think I'mneglecting my baby?
That is often the conversationwe're having with moms.
With partners, partners tend tobe a little more reluctant to
come in because there isn't roomfor the support person or
typically the masculine personto get support, to struggle to

(10:59):
have their own sense of identityshifts and hormone fluctuations
and postpartum depression.
We know that for women, it isbetween one and five and one and
seven, women in postpartum willexperience postpartum depression
and anxiety.
We suspect that's actuallyhigher, but because of reporting
biases, that's about where it'sat.
Men are between one and eightand one and ten.

(11:21):
Again, we suspect it's higher,but reporting biases.
Men are also going through this.
Their hormones are changing whenthey produce oxytocin or that
bonding hormone with baby, wesee testosterone go down.
So they feel that fluctuation.
They're also not their onlytheir partner's only affection

(11:43):
point.
They probably aren't having sexlike they're used to.
They might feel like a burden orunseen, they might feel
incompetent as a parent.
And so for male partners,typically it's in that realm of
I don't know how to support her,I don't know how to keep our
marriage afloat because she'sthe one that's in charge of the

(12:03):
baby.
Maternal gatekeeping is whatthat's called.
She is who gets to rule, gets tocontrol, and I am just there as
a burden or to providefinancially or whatever it might
be.
That's where people typicallystart.
Yeah.
Is a lot of shame.
Shame about talking about thisexperience, feeling like they're

(12:23):
the only ones.
And is there room for me toexpress myself?

SPEAKER_00 (12:27):
Yeah.
When it comes to maternalgatekeeping, I'm curious if you
can explain what that looks likeand feels like for the mother.
Not because the fathers don'tmatter, but because they're
probably most likely notlistening to my podcast.
Because yes, I mean, you knowthis about me, but like I'm
deeply passionate about thefather or the man or the

(12:48):
partner's experience and howthat impacts you, how it's
impacting your experience, howit's impacting their experience,
because it's all your own.
I mean, quite literally, wedon't have villages anymore.
So when you're having a babywith someone, they are your
village.
So when that's cracking, whenthat connection, when that bond

(13:09):
is struggling, which it oftendoes in in parenting, whether
that's in the baby season or thetoddlers, it for most people
they will experience shifts.
And sometimes those are hard andthen good, and sometimes they
are earth-shatteringly hard, andyou have to make really big
decisions about how to moveforward.
But I'm curious for thatmaternal gatekeeping, what does

(13:32):
that look like and feel like forthe mother?
Good question.

SPEAKER_02 (13:35):
And I want to speak to what you were just saying
about it shifting the marriage,and then I'll get to that
question.
We know that the birth of ourfirst baby is the single largest
event that contributes to adecline in marital satisfaction
and quality above anything elsebesides the death of a child.
It is the thing that makesmarriages shake to their core,

(13:55):
completely realigns our marriageand ourselves.
And so it's meant to rock you.
The question is, how much doesit get to rock you, depending on
your support system, your copingtools, that village around you?
For women, what it feels likefor maternal gatekeeping, it
feels like burnout,hypervigilance all the time.

(14:16):
So I'm aware of baby all thetime.
It feels like exhaustion, notbeing able to take a moment for
myself without feeling like I'mstill responsible for that other
human.
It can start to feel likeresentment towards my partner.
Why don't you ever help me?
Why am I alone?
Why am I doing everything forthe baby and you're not doing

(14:37):
anything?
And the reality is, male partnermay have tried to do something,
but then got criticized,corrected, put down.
Mom might have intervened, andso male partner pulls back even
more.
Plus, as a society, we don'tprep men really to become
parents.
Whereas we we attempt to prepwomen, sort of, kind of, but for

(14:59):
women, it's a tough one.
Most women by and large wouldsay, I don't want that role.
But they are put into that role,whether it's societal or within
that marriage itself.

SPEAKER_00 (15:09):
Yeah.
Well, and even I think thathappens too because there's not
other parents around.
I mean, you think of the actualvillage that we crave, and I
don't know if you see this too,but I work with women who like
they have friends, they havefamily, they have people, but
that's very different to havepeople in this current society

(15:32):
for most people because youracts of parenting are happening
alone.
Your daily, monotonous, nightlyroutines and life is primarily
happening with just you and thekids.
If you had a village, it'd beyou and several other adults and
several other kids.
There would be other people toattune to, other people to

(15:55):
regulate with, other people towatch the kids.
But I think so many women havelike I think they biologically
take on this role of I have tobe hypervigilant.
I have, I'm the one.
I have to be the one who'salways on, always paying
attention.
And even if I I think you made agood point here, I think there's

(16:15):
a lot of women who have partnerswho want to be supportive, but
like the the dynamics betweenthem as a couple or as parents,
they just don't know how to dothat.
Their nervous system is so infight and flight, it's so
panicked about the care of thisbaby that they don't slow down

(16:37):
and like bring in that thatother person who is kind of
their village in that home.

SPEAKER_02 (16:42):
Sure.
And sometimes it's out ofnecessity, right?
If mom's staying home with babe,for example, well, male
partner's got to go to work,someone's got to pay the bills.
And that's also where men kindof get shafted, for lack of a
better term, of their role isthat not to be parent.
And so it really impacts thatcompetency.
But again, then it leaves momalone.

(17:05):
We need support.
Other cultures, like in Europe,have a sitting in period where
it I forget the exact numbers,but it's a I think it's like a
week or something, a week and ahalf, where you're in bed,
another week, week and a half ofclose to bed, and then you can
start to gradually go outside ofthat.
In bed means in bed.

(17:25):
Someone is providing you meals,someone is taking babies so you
can nap.
There is a support system aroundyou.
And in American culture, we justdon't have that.
We don't, yeah, we're way behindin terms of supporting families
as they build and grow.
And this is true not just forfirst babes.
I want to be really clear.
We think first babes are thehardest, and for some people,

(17:46):
they are.
For other people, they're not.
Now I have a toddler and a baby,or two toddlers and a baby, and
that's a whole different beast.
So these challenges don't end atthe firstborn, they can happen
in any pregnancy, any journey offertility, any point within the
parenting journey.

SPEAKER_00 (18:06):
Yeah.
What are some of the things thatare supportive for people in
office and out of office thathelp massively shift that
postpartum period?
Oh, good question.

SPEAKER_02 (18:18):
So baby blues, those are normal.
That's that first two weeks,it's up to 14 days after birth,
where we feel kind of sad, down,we feel our hormones
fluctuating, but our identitydoesn't change, our self-esteem
doesn't change.
When we hit postpartumdepression, anxiety, we're now
past two weeks, and it'simpacting who we are as a human

(18:39):
and our ability to function.
Being able to recognize thedifference in those two is
really important.
The sooner we can catchpostpartum depression and
anxiety, or postpartum bipolar,anything like that, the better.
Right?
Treatment is always mostsuccessful the sooner we catch
it.
Ways we can support.

(18:59):
We can fill out a birth plan ora postpartum support plan before
Dave is here.
Like I give all of my expectingparents when I've created where
they lay out what are yourtypical coping skills or what
are things that help you feelbetter.
What do you want to do daily foryourself and like take a shower,
eat protein, whatever it mightbe?

(19:20):
What are warning signs thatdepression and anxiety might be
creeping in?
Who are my supportive people?
And what am I going to do next?
Have them put it somewhere likethe fridge where they'll see it,
their partner will see it.
That way, if these symptoms comeup, we're getting support as
early as we can.

SPEAKER_00 (19:38):
Yeah, you've already talked about it.
You already have a plan.
And I think something powerfulthat you said that I don't want
to just skip over.
I think so many people wait solong.
And what's the quote?
It's like the best time to planta tree was 10 years ago, the
next time is today.
And I think for so many people,whether it's mental or emotional

(19:58):
or relational health, we waituntil we're drowning.
We wait until we are sinking.
And then, like, to be honest,recovery is so much harder and
takes so much longer becauseyou've taken on so much more
water.
Versus, can we catch this andpeek and see, oh, things are
shifting in a direction that,like, oh, this isn't just like a

(20:21):
bad day.
This is like a bad day after abad day after a bad day.
And like it's becoming a trend.
It's becoming this whole thingabout me and seeing it and then
finding help and support early.
I think that could belife-changing for so many
people.

SPEAKER_02 (20:38):
And having a community that can be direct
with you if they see it.
Sometimes we can't see our ownpain, our own depression.
It's people reflecting it backto us.
So when I had my first, I dayfive, I told my husband to take
her back.
I remember being in my masterroom closet, crying on the
floor.
I didn't want my baby.

(20:59):
That this baby I had longed for,I had lost a baby prior to her.
Like, I really wanted this baby.
And yet, day five, I was like,no, nope, don't want it.
That was my husband's cue ofooh, something's wrong, right?
This isn't her.
This isn't her normal behavior.
This doesn't feel like my wife.
And so it took him being braveand saying, Hey, love, it's time

(21:23):
to get some support.
And I'm glad he did, right?
Because I couldn't see it.
I was so far in the yuck and theweeds.
Even as a therapist with mydoctorate, I want to point this
out.
No one's immune.
Even as a therapist, I couldn'tsee my own mental health
struggle in that moment.
It was overwhelming.
It was flooding.

(21:43):
So having those people that canbe brave in your world and help
you see that you need support,not just help you see it, but
also help create a list ofreferrals for you.
Sit shoulder to shoulder whileyou make that first phone call,
go to that first session withyou, check up with you after
that first session and see howit went.

(22:04):
Having those consistent peopleis truly a blessing if you had
them.
But identify them, tell themthat you need them to keep an
eye for you.
Other things we can do would bethings like mindfulness, or you
can look up online, there's abillion and one mindfulness
strategies.
But mindfulness and meditation,where it takes our brain and

(22:24):
body out of the past or thefuture and brings us into the
present moment to help ournervous system regulate and calm
down.
Using our support system when wecan to get naps, to bring us
food, to do our laundry.
Let people support you.
This whole idea that we've gotto do it all ourselves, we've
got to be that perfect mom andpartner in all the things

(22:47):
without support.
Use your support system.
We're not meant to do it alone.
Therapy is a big one, butmedication can be a big one.
Medication gets a bad rap is notbeing safe for pregnancy and
postpartum.
And there's actually only twoclasses of medication that
aren't.
The other ones are safe.

(23:07):
And so talking to apsychiatrist, talking to your
medical team, if that's anoption you want to go to, so
that you can enjoy yourpostpartum in pregnancy, so you
can bond with baby.
There are lots of options here.
And for partner too, not justbirthing partner.
I cannot punctuate that enough.

SPEAKER_00 (23:27):
Yeah.
Well, because you know, both ofyou have to be doing well.
And the better one of you gets,the more you can support the
other person.
And I'm curious, what are somelike really tangible things
someone can do?
Like you mentioned mindfulness.
What are some like daily ritualsor routines that you feel like

(23:50):
can really help a mom,especially in that postpartum?
But even after, if she's just ina season where she's struggling,
like what do you recommend forpeople to do that's like really
tangible that someone could putinto practice?

SPEAKER_02 (24:03):
If it's warm enough outside, take your shoes off,
take your socks off, put yourfeet in the grass, stand there
and just breathe or lay there.
It sounds weird, but thatgrounding ritual helps our
nervous system regulate unlikeanything else.
That's a big one.
For partnerships, doing a60-second hug takes about 20
seconds for the human body toproduce oxytocin in the touch of

(24:26):
another.
Say 60 because I want thatoxytocin to really be flowing.
So ideally, skin to skin, wherewe're just holding our partner,
not with baby present, babysomewhere safe, not with phones
or thinking about our grocerylist, just for 60 seconds skin
to skin with our partner,breathing in rhythm with one
another.
Taking deep breaths.

(24:47):
If you're overwhelmed, if youare getting angry, shutting
down, put the baby in a safeplace, like crib, walk away.
Go outside.
We have to give ourselvespermission to step away.
You don't have to just stay inthe yuck.
If babe's in a safe place, evenif babe's crying, babe will be
okay.

(25:07):
Take five minutes to go resetyour body.
Your baby's mood can directlyplay based on your nervous
system, your mood.
They regulate based off of you.
So if you're hyped up, you'reresponsible for taking care of
that nervous system, which maymean taking a break.

SPEAKER_00 (25:24):
Which I think, just as a reminder, even if you don't
have a baby, this also appliesto toddlers and little kids and
big kids and teenagers.
Like, right?
It is it is okay for you to, andin fact, not just okay, but it's
really hard to help someone elseregulate when you're
dysregulated.

(25:44):
Oh yeah.
And I think so many people areterrified of, and I say
terrified, they're mentally notlike this is bad, but
emotionally, they have thisphysiological reaction when
their baby is crying or theirtoddler is throwing a fit of, I
need to fix this.
And sometimes it's this like, Ineed this to stop so that I can

(26:05):
be okay.
And sometimes it's this, oh, itis my job to make sure that this
little being is always happy andhealthy.
And it's like, that's not arealistic goal for your child.
They are going to have a humanexperience.
And this act of pulling, even ifyou just emotionally pull back,

(26:26):
this is something that Iencourage moms on a regular
basis.
You can be standing in front ofyour toddler, but you can pull
your energy and emotion backinto your body and check in on
like, can I feel my spine?
Can I feel my feet on the floor?
Can I get a quick drink?
Can I check in on me?
Because I think so often, Imean, it's biologically

(26:49):
necessary for a while for amother to be overly attuned to
that baby, right?
But especially as they becometoddlers, it's so important for
us to be able to like you existoutside outside of that dynamic.
You exist outside of what theywant and need from you.
And it's actually so healthy foryour baby and for your toddler

(27:10):
to have a mother who existsoutside of them, who has a way
to regulate that's not thembeing regulated.
But I think that's very hard forthe modern mother.
One, just cultural norms.
And two, I think we just don'ttalk about how dysregulating it
is.
Like even to have happy, healthykids.

SPEAKER_02 (27:31):
It is hard.
And when you think about wherewe go for support if we don't
have super close friends, oreven if we do, we look to social
media.
And social media has the abilityto shame you for every single
thing you do.
People who are on theirkeyboards think they are the
experts of every single thingyou do.
And the real idea is we're allstruggling, all of us, right?

(27:54):
So as a mom, I'm alreadystruggling and I'm like, shoot,
I can't breastfeed, I'm notproducing enough milk.
I'm gonna have to go to formula.
Okay, I'm gonna do formula, I'mokay with it.
Then I open up Facebook andthere's a post shaming formula
feeding.
Oh my gosh, I'm the worst momthat has ever mommed.
I shouldn't have this baby.
And we're off to the races inthe shame cycle.

(28:14):
So now if I'm already shamedover here and then I can't help
my baby stop crying, I really ama piece of shit.
Why am I a mom?
The amount I hear that makes metear up because moms are
constantly questioning Should Ibe a mom?
I'm not good enough.
I'm not as good as Suzy Q downthe street, I'm not as good as
Bridget over here, or whoever.

(28:38):
You don't have to be.
You get to be your own versionof mom or dad or partner or
whoever.
The confidence confidence comesin knowing ourselves and knowing
how to regulate ourselves,support ourselves.
Doesn't mean it's not gonna behard, but can I know that I can
be a lighthouse when my father'shaving a breakdown?

(29:01):
I can stand there strong withoutabsorbing the storm.
Can I know that if my baby'soverwhelming me, I will walk
away to let myself regulate andbabe will be okay.
Can I know that I'm making thebest choice for my baby, not
Suzy Q's baby?
If that's a hard place for youto go, which it often is,

(29:23):
feeling confident, get support.
Go to a women's breastfeedinggroup or a walk-in group,
somewhere where you feel safe,safe to be a mess, to ask the
questions to fall apartsometimes.

SPEAKER_00 (29:40):
Yeah, okay.
And it's okay to not knoweverything.
I think so, yeah, especiallyespecially the women.
So I became a mom super young,super early.
And I had I think I had apermission of like, it's okay
that I don't know what I'mdoing.
Sure.
The clients I've met who becamemothers later in life, right?
Like they Became a mother intheir 30s or their late 20s,

(30:03):
like they had some life behindthem, right?
Like I was a literal baby when Ihad my babies.
I didn't have a whole life.
I didn't have a career.
I didn't have this big thing ofthis is who I am and this is
what I do and I'm verysuccessful.
I didn't have any of that.
So, like in some ways, I wasstarting at ground zero and that
gave me a lot because I hadnothing to lose, right?

(30:25):
I think a lot of women comeinto, I mean, even conception,
like we were talking aboutearlier, or having a baby, or
motherhood, or postpartum, ormaybe it's when you have your
baby, but then you have to goback to work and they go, I
don't know what I'm doing.
Like I technically am doing it,but I don't feel like I know
what I'm doing.
And it and it robs them of thatconfidence just because they're

(30:49):
new at it.
But the reality is that we livein a culture that we're not
living arm in arm with othermoms.
We don't see how they're doingit.
The only how-to's of motherhoodwe mostly have, unless you're in
like a group.
And this is why I love, I reallyfeel like in-person groups are

(31:11):
so key for motherhood.
You're only seeing people'scutesy tips and tricks and
strategies.
And like at the end of the, Ilove a good strategy.
Give me a good plan, give me agood habit, give me a good
routine.
I am a sucker for it, right?
Like sell me on your new plannershit.
I got this.
But what happens when your planhits the fan?

(31:33):
What happens when that morningroutine that worked magically?
You know, you see these.
I even saw something the otherday, and this mom was like, I
wake up at 4:30 a.m.
every day to like get my stuffdone.
And she, and it was, I was justkind of interested in it.
And I was like, I wonder whatthe comments say.
And I started reading thecomments, and so many people
were like, you know, they weresaying the word to get her magic

(31:55):
morning routine, right?
But someone asked the question,how do you get up that early?
And she goes, I go to bed ateight.
And they were like, Well, how doyou go to bed at eight?
And she was like, I just do.
And they were like, Well, whatdo you do with the kids?
And she's like, you just figureit out.
And I had this moment of like,that might work for you right
now.
Right.
And I hope it works for youforever.

(32:16):
It might.
There are some women, but likefor most women that I know, the
women that like I deeplyintimately get a hear from, both
professionally and personally,that morning routine for you at
that 4:30 a.m.
wake up with your 8 p.m.
bedtime, that works lovely rightnow.
But what about when your kidsstart going to school and do
sports and you're not eatingdinner till 8 p.m.?

(32:39):
That might not work anymore.
What if 8 to 10 is the only timeyou get a talk to your partner
or snuggle with your partner orhave like, what if that's your
only alone time during the daybecause your life changes?
And I think that's so hard forus because we we have this
culture that has told us there'sa perfect strategy, there's a

(33:00):
perfect way to control this,there's a perfect way to set
this up that works and thenalways works.
And I'm over here like it's aseason.
If it works right now, awesome,keep doing it.
But if it stops working, itdoesn't mean you've failed.
And it doesn't mean you keephaving to do that thing if it's

(33:21):
not working anymore.
It means you might have to dosomething else.
And I think that is a hugestruggle in motherhood that I
don't hear people talk about isI think so much of the shame and
the guilt is this tension ofconstantly having to renegotiate
what matters and what'simportant and where my time and
energy and focus is going.

(33:41):
And I'm curious, like for you,for like what you know of
motherhood and what you see inthe women that you work with,
what are those moments oftension?
What are those things that likesociety has set us up of like
this is the gold standard thatlike there might be something
underneath it where it's like,yeah, that's great.
I'm not saying don't do that,but I am saying it's okay if

(34:04):
that doesn't work for someoneelse.

SPEAKER_02 (34:06):
100%.
I think about control, right?
When you talk about that, all Ihear is I want to control.
Yeah.
For those who don't know yet,parenting is not about control
all the time.
Sometimes shit is just out ofcontrol.
And can you lean into that?
Can you ride with the mask?
Can you kind of just take itseason by season?

(34:28):
A big place they see this issleep, right?
Especially sleep regression,sleep training.
Kids need to be in their ownrooms, whatever it might be.
Okay, here's a little insight.
I have an eight-year-old and afour-year-old.
My four-year-old still sleeps inmy bedroom.
That shakes people to their corebecause it they have all kinds

(34:49):
of assumptions about why.
The reality is she's a packanimal and she feels safest when
she's in our room, and I want mykids to feel safe.
Full stop.
And for other people, oh mygosh, I can't imagine.
How does that work for you?
It works better for us becauseshe's sleeping through the
night, she's not crying in themiddle of the night, she's not
scared, she's regulated.

(35:10):
It works for us.
Other families would never, andthat's okay.
They get to make that choice.
Sleep training at six months.
If you don't do fervor orwhatever, well, you're gonna
mess up their sleep for the restof their life.
It's this incredible pressure ofbetween 16 months is your only
sleep window, and you must do itexactly this way, otherwise, X,

(35:32):
Y, and Z.

SPEAKER_00 (35:33):
Is that still a popular motherhood thing?
Because that was that was hugewhen I was a new mom, but like I
have big kids, right?
Like I have a 13 and a10-year-old.
So, like, my I'm kind of out ofthat like sleep scenario.
I thought that could have thatcultural narrative had changed a
lot.
Not really.

SPEAKER_02 (35:49):
Cry it out has.
We know that cry it out, so truecry it out, put your baby in the
crib and you leave them there nomatter how long they cry.
Ferber is a modified where wecome in and distinct timed
intervals to soothe for about aminute and then leave again.
Cry it out is no longersupported.
It increases cortisol in babes,it's not good for their
neurodevelopment.

(36:10):
It really is not supported byphysical or mental health
researchers.
Ferber, as well as some othermethods, it's still a big thing.
That and food.
So infant-led weaning versuspurees.
Or what is it called?
Or you let them have real food.
I did it with mine.

(36:31):
Oh, like baby-led weaning.
Yes, and anyway, letting themhave whole foods versus purees,
or when to stop breastfeedingand when you should let the baby
decide, right?
These are places where womenreally want to control.
And at some point we need toit's gonna happen, what's gonna
happen?

(36:51):
Or we're gonna listen to our gutinstinct of what's best for our
house.
Not my neighbor's house, not mybest friend's house, our house.
That is kind of the crux for meof some of this parenting stress
that I see is I have I amsupposed to.
I should be, right?

(37:12):
We're shooting on ourselves allthe time.
My child should be sleepingindependently by accident.
My child should be potty tree,my child should be whatever.
And there's a fundamental pieceto some of this, and some of
this we rush simply becauseculture tells us to, or friends
tell us to, or our mother-in-lawtells us to, or whatever.

(37:32):
Listen to your gut.
Did I think that four-year-oldsshould be sleeping in their
parents' room at this point?
No, sure didn't.
But slice of humble pie, shefeels safe.
She's not crying every nightsaying I'm scared.
Cool, I am signed up for that.

SPEAKER_00 (37:50):
Yeah, I wish I I wish I could go back to how I
parented before I was a parent.
Man, I was so good.
I was like the professionalparent who parented.
I was such a good parent beforeI was an actual parent.
But no, like all jokes aside,the ideas I had about how I

(38:11):
would parent and who I would beand what it would look like was
so different than the actualthing.
And I mean, one, there's likethe amount of choices I made
where like I thought I would doone thing and then I became this
completely different person.
I'm sure my whole family waslike, what the hell is
happening?
Right.
Cause like in my story, right, Iwent from like hospital birth,

(38:34):
seeing an OB to, oh, I'm gonnado a hospital midwife birth to
I'm gonna do a home birth.
And right, I'm how old was I?
I was like 20.
Love it.
And like I didn't thinkfully,like I thankfully I had some
people in my world where likethat was a thing and that was
normal and it was talked about.
And but there were so manypeople who were like, I'm sure

(38:54):
they were like, what is shedoing?
And then I was like wearing thebaby everywhere, and I brought
the baby to mops.
I can remember, I don't rememberanyone else who kept their baby
with them and then would justnurse them in the middle of
mops.
The babies went to the nursery,and I would have several moms be
like, you need to just go puther in the nursery.
And I'm like, We're good.
She's fine, she hates thenursery, she freaks out.

(39:15):
I'm we're good, I'm good, she'sgood.
And I'm like, if if you loveputting your baby in the
nursery, great, this is whatwe're doing, and it works for
us.
But I like there's so manythings that I chose differently,
and I'm so glad I saw otherwomen in my community because it
gave me this realization oflike, there's so many different
ways to be a really good mom.

(39:36):
There's so many different waysto be a really good mom.
And I had to find who I was as amom, what what I was good at as
a mom.
And let's be honest, I'dprobably be a different mom if I
had a baby today than 13 yearsago, Becca.
I would be a different person.
I'm a different mom.
I need different things, I wantdifferent things.

(39:57):
All that to say, I think so manyof us, we have this pressure,
this script that we don'tlogically know of of what we're
gonna be like, what it's gonnafeel like, what it's gonna look
like.
And I think there is a massivegrief.
There is a massive identitychange for so many women of, I

(40:18):
didn't know it would look likethis.
I didn't know it would feel likethis.
I thought if I could just getthe right formula, this was me,
super high control, superperfectionistic.
I would have never used thatword for myself.
But I came into motherhood like,I'm gonna be the best at this.
I'm gonna read the books, I'mgonna do all the things.
And then I think of like a greatexample of this.

(40:39):
I was doing all of the things tomake sure my daughter was super
healthy, right?
I had, I was like, for her firstbirthday, I kid you not, I got
so much shit for this.
I made her a gluten-free pancakeand a dairy-free yogurt as the
icing for her birthday cakebecause she didn't have sugar,
she didn't have food.
I love that, Becca, right?
And I'm not mocking moms who dothat.

(41:01):
For me, I was it was fear and itwas anxiety.
And you know what?
That baby got into preschool andshe was sick 50 times more than
any other kid.
I nursed her forever.
I breastfed, I did all of theright things.
I did all of the right things.
I remember I spent the first fewyears of like those school in a

(41:23):
constant panic because she wasalways sick.
And I kept thinking, what am Idoing wrong?
What supplements do we need?
Oh, it's because we're not, andit's like, yes, logically now I
can look back and be like, oh, Iwas so anxious and I was so
controlling and I was so, I wasgrasping for control.
And I remember, you know, I'mgrateful I had I had a friend

(41:45):
whose daughter had some reallyintense medical needs, and we
were talking, and she was like,I'm constantly fearful my
daughter will die.
But she had that lived reality.
Like she actually had somereasons why that might happen.
I really didn't.
And all of a sudden I was like,I have that so many times.
I'll put her to bed.
And it's like what Brene Browntalks about that, like that pre,

(42:09):
what does she call it?
Dang it.
She has a really beautifulphrase for it where like you
feel this immense amount of loveand joy, and then in the next
crippling fear and grief oflike, what if this is taken away
from me?
But I think in that season, Ihad to learn like this is not in

(42:29):
my control.
Like, there's no amount of doingthe right things that prevent
her from getting sick becausegetting sick is part of the
human experience.
I think part of that's primal,though, right?

SPEAKER_02 (42:41):
We have this primal instinct to protect our young.
Think caveman times here.
Men had a primal instinct tospread their seed as far and
fast as possible before gettingeaten by that saber-toothed
tiger.
Women were responsible forfinding a good partner that
could protect them, and thenkeeping the young safe.
That primal drive has not left.

(43:03):
It is in every species that weknow of.
Well, most every species.
Some species eat their young,don't eat your young.

SPEAKER_00 (43:13):
I didn't eat my kid today.

SPEAKER_02 (43:15):
When but we have this primal drive, and people
want to logic their way out ofit.
The reality is those are twodifferent parts of the brain,
and you're not gonna logicyourself out of something primal
and instinctual.
You're not.
That part of the brain is notmeant to be louder than the
protective part of your brain.
Think about if there's a bear,you're gonna protect your baby.

(43:37):
You're also not gonna bethinking logic of how to get out
of the situation.
You're going to be acting onimpulse.
That's by design.
When we can lean into that andaccept that part of ourselves
rather than shame that part ofourselves, it becomes much more
tolerable.
And in fact, we show it respect.
We meet ourselves differentlywhen we see that it's not a me

(44:00):
problem, it's part of being aparent, it's part of human
species, it's part of whatever.
Yeah, it's not if you could justdo this thing, if you could just
be less controlling, if youcould just be less anxious, less
depressed, less whatever.
It's not a choice, you didn'tchoose into it, you can't choose
your way out of it.

(44:22):
You can't choose into ananxiety, and you can't choose
your way out of it.
You can make choices to supportit, to facilitate healing or
growth, but you cannot.
Let me say it doubly loud here.
You cannot choose your way outof postpartum depression,
anxiety, bipolar, psychosis.
None of it.

(44:43):
None of it.
It's not your fault.
It's not your fault that yourtoddler is making you want to
climb the walls.
It's not your fault that you getangry and overwhelmed.
It's not, but you do have aresponsibility of choice of how
you're gonna treat it, howyou're gonna support it.
That is where the responsibilitycomes.

(45:05):
We stop judging everyone for howthey're feeling and start
supporting how we can dosomething differently.
Oh, you know how much morebeautiful that'd be?

SPEAKER_00 (45:13):
Yeah, it's like uh in, you know, I look back to
that season and it's like, youknow, my nervous system thought
everything was a bear.
And that wasn't my fault.
It was there was a lot ofdifferent reasons, and now I
cognate, you know, cognitivelyknowing why didn't actually
change it.
So there was a season where Iwas just obsessed with like,

(45:34):
well, why?
Like, why is this so hard forme?
But what helped more than thatis okay, how do I teach my body
and my nervous system and mysoul to not think everything is
a bear, to be able to likeright, to like pre to be able to
be present with someone with mytoddler having a meltdown and
knowing she's safe, she's okay,I'm okay.

(45:58):
I don't feel okay, I don't feelokay, but I am safe.
And learning those tools andthose skills, I didn't want to
have to do that.
I thought it would all just comenatural to me.
You know, I was someone who was,I guess you could say, obsessed
with becoming a mom.
That's all I ever wanted.
That's all I ever wanted to dowas be a mom.

(46:19):
And I came into it thinking,like, I'm gonna be so good at
this.
And there was a lot of like, Idid have a natural nurturing in
nature.
Like I'm really grateful for forthat aspect of my personality.
And when I got to the toddlerphase of it, for me, like, and I
even I did have I had postpartumdepression and anxiety that I

(46:41):
dealt with, and that almost felteasier than the toddler phase,
even once I was out of thepostpartum stuff, because that's
when my nervous system and mytrauma shit really hit the fan.
That's when I started havinglike some stuff going on where I
was going, I can't do this on myown.
And that wasn't, I think so manypeople they have that moment

(47:04):
come up and it's like a shamething.

SPEAKER_02 (47:06):
100%.

SPEAKER_00 (47:07):
And I think for me it was for a while until it was
like, I can't do this.
How do I find people who canteach me how?
Because so much of it honestlywas skills, it was skill sets of
nervous system regulation andconflict strategies and
boundaries and legitimateparenting strategies.
I did need different parentingstrategies because the ones that

(47:29):
I knew from growing up, theydidn't work with my the way that
I wanted to parent, but I didn'tknow how else to do it.
And knowing development, what'sdevelopmentally normal and
appropriate?

SPEAKER_02 (47:39):
Yeah, what do we actually need to correct and
what don't we need to correct?
I love that you bring up thatexample of parenting.
So I think back to say my oldestnewborn stage for me.
Nope, hated it awful.
Probably for both, butespecially with my first my
husband, excellent with babies.

(48:00):
So he led in the newborn stage.
It was not a traditional setupin that way.
Toddler stage, oh, I can dealwith temper tantrums.
For him, he's like you.
No, nope, no, thank you.
And so what you think might beyour strength or what being a
good parent looks like changesby season.

(48:21):
I wasn't the person doing thatbesides to nurse.
My husband and I would rotate.
So I would wake up first, gonurse babe, and then I would tap
him and I'd go back to bed whilehe put babe back down.
Know your strengths, know yourweaknesses.
We all have them.
It doesn't make you a badparent, it just makes you you
that there are different partsof you that are stronger than
others.

SPEAKER_00 (48:41):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (48:42):
And I love that you point that out because we both
have a lot of training in thisspace, have great wisdom in this
space, and yet it didn't spareyou from toddlerhood, and it
didn't spare me from the newbornstage at all.

SPEAKER_00 (48:54):
Yeah.
Well, and even, I mean, I eventhink of the teenage phase.
We started getting into theteenage phase, and I went, oh, I
need new strategies, I need anew skill set, I need a higher
emotional regulation andintelligence, I need better
energetic boundaries, right?
Like I started going, oh, I needto evolve and grow with my kids.

(49:15):
And I think that is somethingunexpected for a lot of people.
And I'm I'm curious if you'vehad this experience too.
A lot of a lot of the women I'veworked with, not all of them,
but some of them, they areemotionally, mentally,
relationally, can they continueto mature and grow?
Their parents are the samepeople their parents used to be.

(49:36):
So they're looking at theirparent and very much
fundamentally, their parenttoday is very much still the
person who raised them.
They are emotionally developedpast their parents.
And so they literally don't evenhave someone to look to to say,
oh, it's normal for me in my 40sas a very successful grown adult

(49:59):
to still have struggles that I'mfiguring out how to overcome, to
still have challenges that Icome up to and go, I don't have
the muscle for this, I don'thave the backbone for this, or I
don't have the flexibility.
I don't know how to let go ofcontrol of this thing.
That is such a beautiful thingthat I think is I think it's
unique in this generation.

(50:19):
And I think we go to theextremes of it sometimes.
We do.
We do.
As all things, right?
Like it, you know, the yourgreatest weakness is so often
your greatest strength under oroverutilized.
But I think so many women that'sthey struggle as parents because
you're growing up in a new wayalong with your kids.

(50:42):
And I don't, I don't know if thewomen that I'm working with ever
saw that happen in theirparents.
I don't think they ever sawtheir parents grow up.
Their parents didn't changetheir minds.
Their parents didn't own badbehaviors, if you will.
Their parents didn't sharemental emotional health
struggles in adulthood.
It was either we're miserableand we stay that way, and this

(51:04):
is just the way that it is, ortheir parents gave off the very
authoritarian, I knoweverything, I've got this,
you're always the problem.
But they're still like that asadults.
It's just it's something I it'ssomething interesting to me.

SPEAKER_02 (51:18):
It happens more than people might think, where
there's the rigidity betweengenerations, especially right
now, this chasm between the two,right?
As I talk about, say, I'll usethis example with my girls.
We are big on body autonomy.
What that means is they get tochoose where their body is in
space, who touches it, theirboundaries, not me, not anyone

(51:42):
else.
They get to choose it.
So when we say goodbye to saygrandparents, I'll say, Do you
want to give grandma a hug?
My daughters have the right tosay no without guilt.
So not saying, Well, it would benice if, or you're gonna make
grandma sad if nope, if they sayno, cool, we're done.
That was a big one for my dad.

(52:04):
My mom is deceased, so for mydad and my in-laws to adjust to,
not because they were doinganything wrong, but because
grandkids hug theirgrandparents.
Like, this is weird, and sothere's this dissonance that's
happening that beingtransparent, our support system
has fully come on board with.
But that's not always the casefor everyone.

(52:26):
There is a pushback.
There is a well, you just don'tknow anything.
I know I'm older than you, andyou're elder, and you're
superior, I'm your parent.
And it is a big tension point,especially too if there's a
difference in the way you andyour partner want to parent or
interact with this, or how yourparents and your in-laws
interact with this, it cancreate massive tension and

(52:47):
relationships.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (52:49):
Oh, I mean, I was I was noticing the other day, I
was talking to who was it?
I don't remember, but I wasrealizing that like so many
women that I've worked with,they're not just navigating the
relationship to their kids inthe parenting realm, in the
motherhood realm.

(53:09):
A huge thing that comes up isthey're renavigating their
relationship to their parents.
It massively changes for themwhen they have a baby.
And for some women, it's the Idon't, I thought my parents
would be here for me, especiallylike the mom comes up, that
mother wound, that motherlonging of like, I wanted my mom
to be here.
Whether she's here and she's nothere, or she's gone, she's

(53:34):
passed away, or she's movedaway.
There's this, like, there's thislonging for a relationship to a
mother and a father that changesfor so many women when they
become a parent.
And I don't feel like that istalked about outside of if you
have horribly toxic parents.
I think that's extreme.
There's that extreme.
There's that, like, oh, you haveyour parents who you're no

(53:57):
contact with because they'reawful, terrible people.
Well, for most people, and youknow, granted, I'm working with
a very specific community ofpeople, I guess you could say,
you know, I'm I'm not atherapist, so I'm not working
with someone who's in this likeextremely harsh, awful dynamic
with a narcissistic, right?
But that's the rarity.
That's not the common, yes, thatbut I think that culture tells

(54:21):
us these scripts and theseboundaries of how to cut them
off.
And it's like either full accessor no access.
Where I think most women arewalking through this.
How do I navigate having arelationship with these people
that's changed?
They the what they expect fromme and need from me, I'm not

(54:41):
that person anymore.
I'm not that girl, I'm not, I'mnot okay with those boundaries
anymore.
I don't want to relate to thisanymore.
I don't know how to talk to mymom about this, or I don't want
to hurt feelings.

SPEAKER_02 (54:53):
That happens all the time.
Of I'm afraid to say this is myboundary or this is how we're
parenting, because you, parent,my parent, is gonna take that
personally.
So instead of advocating forself, I tuck it in because I
don't want to make you sad,which we can't make anyone feel
anything.
Soapbox, but I don't want tomake you feel sad or I don't
want to feel guilty.
So I just keep it to myself andlive in this dissonance within

(55:16):
my own body.

SPEAKER_00 (55:18):
Yeah, there's so many dynamics.
And I wonder if we if this is agood place to not wrap it up,
but to end the conversation ofthink of just the dynamics we
talked about in this call.
We're not even talking abouthormones, we're not even talking
about trauma histories, we'renot even talking about the

(55:39):
relationship you have with yourco-parent and your your
home-taking skills, right?
Like I think of me as a new mom.
I didn't have the skills builtup.
I had the logic of what to do,but I didn't have the embodiment
of like taking care of a home.
It's like there's so many layersto who you are and what you're

(56:02):
walking through as a person inthis season.

SPEAKER_02 (56:06):
And it can be your socioeconomic status, your
access to child care.
Are your friendships deepquality ones where you can be
authentic or are they surfacelevel?
And that's what you have to havebecause what other option do you
have?
Are you alone?
Do you have a support system?
There are so many factors tothis, even emotions like fear or

(56:27):
anger towards parts of oursystem, towards ourself.
Maybe we didn't choose ourpregnancy, maybe you could go on
forever on these contact acts,and each one of those colors
your lived experience.

unknown (56:42):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (56:43):
So as we talk about this, it's gonna sound to some
people like broad brush strokes,or that's not me.
And that's true because thereare such a wide variety of
experiences and beliefs andvalues.
The key part of here is what areyour beliefs?
What are your values?
How do you embody those?

(57:03):
How do you support yourself whenthings get hard?
How do you lean on whatevernetwork you've got around you?
How do you not blame yourselffor struggling with parenthood,
struggling with feeling likeshit, struggling with getting
out of bed?
It's not your fault.

SPEAKER_00 (57:21):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (57:22):
Training a mental health is a brute.
It is a long period of time thatimpacts people for a lifetime.
And it is not something weshould be shaming people in and
out of.
We should be rallying because itis hard.
Across the board, it is hard.
If someone tells you that ithasn't been hard for them,
chances are other lying to youbecause it is.

(57:43):
Rocks your entire world.

SPEAKER_00 (57:45):
Well, and I do, I do think there are some people
where it genuinely hasn't beenthat hard for them, and that
doesn't mean your experience,right?
And like that, that could betheir think of all of these
different layers.
It could quite literally be allof those layers.
And as we wrap this up, I'mthinking of how many different

(58:06):
layers, because I think this canfeel overwhelming when you start
thinking of how many differentissues are on a mom.
And I think that's one of thebiggest things is it can be so
overwhelming to have to thinkabout and feel into all of these
different things and all of thedifferent things that you're
choosing and not choosing, orthat you have the illusion of
choice for.

(58:28):
And here's what I will say isit's always the straw that
breaks the camel's back.
People like that's such a commonsaying.
But like I always add to that,but it's the little straws that
make sure the camel's backdoesn't break.
These little layers of supportand these small choices that
seem so insignificant.
I think, especially inpostpartum, or even not

(58:50):
postpartum, even if we'retalking about a grief season or
a hard healing season, or you'rein a space where you're
struggling, you have to just youhave to bring your perspective
back into what is a choice I'mmaking right now that supports
me?
What is one small hinge?
What is one small thing I can dothat will take care of me, that

(59:13):
will take care of one of thosestraws?
Is it calling a therapist?
Is it making a post in yourFacebook group of who has a
therapist in the area that theyrecommend?
And then meet three of them.
Maybe that's your step one.
Maybe your step one is taking anap.
Maybe your step one is literallyjust calling a girlfriend and
saying, I'm struggling.

(59:34):
I think I need help.
I need someone to know that.
I need someone to help me likehelp me know what to do next.
Someone tell me what to dobecause I don't know what to do
anymore.
Those small little hinges, thosesmall little layers of support
of it's okay if you can't figureall of it out right now.
It's okay if you can't make itall better today or tomorrow or

(59:57):
after a couple therapy sessions.
It's going to take some.
time and you're worth thateffort.
I'm curious, I'm curious foryou, what are some of those
small little steps or thosethose hinge points that someone
can do if they're struggling?
Good question.

SPEAKER_02 (01:00:12):
Take the shower.
Don't underestimate the power ofa hot shower, even if it's three
minutes.
Take the shower.
Put on normal clothes that youfeel good in.
Go outside, put your feet in thegrass.
You heard me mention that beforeit is worth repeating.
Reaching out to our people,having someone bring you a meal,

(01:00:35):
eating something or drinkingsomething that feels good for
you.
It's the little things thateither bring calm to your body
or bring joy to your body.
It doesn't have to be massivethings.
It can be just little moments.
While baby's napping, pleasedon't do the dishes take a nap.
Do some yoga do something thatfeels good for your soul not

(01:00:58):
just in service of yourhousehold.

SPEAKER_00 (01:01:00):
Yeah.
Yeah.
You know, as you were sayingthat I thought of there was a
season where I remember feelingsomething's got to give.
Something's gonna givesomething's gonna give and then
like this thing rose up insideme.
I don't know if it was God.
I don't know if what it was Idon't know if I heard it
somewhere but it was likesomething's got to give but it

(01:01:22):
cannot be me.
And on my worst hardest momentsstill to this day it's not just
then it's not just what I didthen it's what I do now
sometimes there are momentswhere I say something's got to
give it will not be me.
It cannot be me.
It can be the dishes it can benot cooking dinner we're doing
frozen nuggies.
It can be anything but me.

(01:01:45):
I can't be the thing that givesI can't be the thing that snaps
and whatever it takes I have tohave my back because like it
it's me for me.

SPEAKER_02 (01:01:54):
Bingo and we think of that as selfish right of
taking care of myself asselfish.
I should be focusing on babypartner house all the extra
things think about the cornymetaphor of the airplane I put
the mask on my child first and Ipass out who's gonna help me no
one I have to put mine on firstin order to help my child my

(01:02:17):
partner you have to take care ofyou if you're going to have
capacity strength to give a foxto take care of others right if
I'm dysregulated and worn out mybaby's gonna be dysregulated
right along with me because I'mresponsible for regulating the
nervous system it will make itso much harder and that's really

(01:02:39):
rich coming from someone whostruggled through postpartum
right along with you.
But if you can take just alittle bit take that five
minutes outside and take a deepbreath wear clothes that are
comfortable don't put on clothesthat feel tight restrictive
itchy let your nervous systemhave a break there.

SPEAKER_00 (01:02:59):
Eat foods that feel good for your gut why because we
don't want to irritate thenervous system further do the
things that again bring you calmand bring you joy that is how we
cope through this and they canbe little things that stack up
to some really big outcomes yeahwell and I I love that you said
it's coming rich coming from mebut here's the thing this

(01:03:21):
medicine is easy to talk aboutit tastes terrible to take and I
think that's the thing is Ithink social media it glamifies
and glorifies because you seethese people doing it and they
look happy when I go on a mentalhealth walk 10 out of 10 times I
don't feel good.
I'm I'm going to walk because Idon't feel good and I need to do

(01:03:44):
something but I think peopledon't talk about that enough of
it doesn't always feel good totake the medicine you need being
taking care of yourselfself-care doesn't always feel
good and gooey.
It it's like dragging a teenagerto be like you need to shower
you haven't showered enough oryou think of a toddler you think

(01:04:05):
of okay if you have a toddlerthis is the easiest sometimes
you parenting yourself sometimesself-care for you is going to be
like having your toddler eatvegetables or taking a bath or
going right getting a toddler todo the most simple things that
you know is good for them andthey don't want to do it that is
how self-care is going to feelfor you sometimes.

(01:04:26):
And often the stuff you need themost it doesn't necessarily
always taste great when youfirst start doing it.
It doesn't always feel easy likeI think of my super type A
perfectionistic moms rest doesnot feel good at first
creativity and letting go ofcontrol does not feel pleasant.

(01:04:48):
It feels like death it feelsterrible and it's like yeah
because you're not used to itand yet it's the corny attitude
of you have to go through therain to get to the rainbow it
might get heavier in terms ofrain before you see that
rainbow.

SPEAKER_02 (01:05:05):
It might feel kind of you might feel guilty you
might feel shame you might feelwhatever on the journey there
and then there's that moment ofoh I'm really glad I did that
for me today.
The more and more you have thosemoments the easier it gets and
sometimes life is so busy thatwe're we think to ourselves like

(01:05:25):
I don't have time.

SPEAKER_00 (01:05:27):
I want you to look at your phone usage look at how
many minutes you spent on socialmedia your games you've got time
I promise I'm asking for fiveminutes not five hours yeah five
minutes you have to makeallocating it yeah you have to
make it a priority you have toget ruthless you have to get

(01:05:47):
ruthless about it in the sameway that you would if your kid
was struggling if your kid wasstruggling how much would you
pay a therapist if your kid wasstruggling the way you were if
your kid was struggling youwould make you would find the
time I promise you you wouldfind the time and like is it
easier for some people to findthe time yes it is you still

(01:06:08):
have to find the time you stillhave to find the money you still
have to find the space and evenif it's in the margins ideally
you're not caring for yourselfin the margins and there are
absolutely seasons and dayswhere if that's where it happens
that's where it happens againthose small little moments they
build up they build up either tosupport you and help you feel

(01:06:33):
better or they add up and theykeep making you feel worse and
worse and worse.

SPEAKER_02 (01:06:38):
Good at saying no this idea that no is a bad thing
no is sometimes advocating forself.

SPEAKER_00 (01:06:46):
If you think about something you have to do that
day besides work because work isa necessity say it's going to a
social function or having peopleover if your body is telling you
I don't want to do this thisdoesn't feel good say no I
encourage you to practice itwithout guilt and shame
afterwards right really wholeand body brace of the word no

(01:07:06):
there's so much freedom to befound in no not today I love
that so much thank you so muchfor being on the podcast I can
talk about this for days I knowit's my jam it's the best I
thank you guys so much forjoining us today and we would
love to hear from you if youloved this episode we would love

(01:07:29):
to hear like what are yournuggets that you took away what
questions do you have what wouldyou add to it we would love to
hear from you so definitelyleave a leave a comment leave a
review send one of us a DM ourinfo will be in the show notes
but thank you so much Kim forbeing here today.
Thank you thanks for joining meon today's episode of the

(01:07:52):
Motherhood Mentor podcast makesure you have subscribed below
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coming soon.
I hope you take today's episodeand you take one aha moment one
small tangible piece of workthat you can bring into your
life to get your hands a littledirty to get your skin in the
game don't forget to take upaudacious space in your life if

(01:08:16):
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So I hope you have an awesomeday take really good care of

(01:08:38):
yourself and I'll see you nexttime