When Helping Hurts: The Surprising Truth About Parenting Anxious Kids with Robyn Isman

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What if everything you’re doing to help your child’s anxiety is actually making things worse? In this eye opening episode Becca sits down with Robyn, a licensed clinical social worker who specializes in helping anxious kids, by working with their parents. 

Our natural parental instincts to soothe, protect, and accommodate can keep our kids stuck in anxiety. Robyn shares the revolutionary SPACE protocol which flips the script. Instead of trying to control or prevent your child’s anxiety or anxious behaviors, you can learn to help your kid by changing your own response. 

This episode is a must listen for every parent. 

About Robyn:

As a coach for parents of anxious kids and a mom of three, I know firsthand how overwhelming it can feel to raise a child in an anxious world. With over a decade of experience supporting families, I help parents navigate the uncertainty and constant second-guessing that often come with parenting an anxious child. Through my membership program and SPACE coaching, I specialize in helping families break free from the cycle of over-accommodation and build the tools they need to raise confident, resilient, and independent kids. Anxiety isn’t dangerous, and parenting through it doesn’t have to feel impossible. I know with the right support, you can show up with confidence and create a calmer, more connected home for your family.

Where to find Robyn:

Website 

Instagram

Membership

If you’re ready to stop living on autopilot and start leading your life with deep presence, I’d love to work with you. Book a free interest call here: Click Here

💌 Want more? Follow me on Instagram @themotherhoodmentor for somatic tools, nervous system support, and real-talk on high-functioning burnout, ambition, healing perfectionism, and motherhood. And also pretty epic meme drops.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to the Motherhood Mentor Podcast.
I'm Becca, a somatic healingpractitioner and a holistic life
coach for moms, and thispodcast is for you.
You can expect honestconversations and incredible
guests that speak to health,healing and growth in every area
of our lives.
This isn't just strategy forwhat we do.
It's support for who we are.
I believe we can be wildlyambitious while still holding

(00:25):
all of our soft and hardhumanity as holy.
I love combining deep innerhealing with strategic systems
and no-nonsense talk about whatthis season is really like.
So grab whatever weird healthbeverage you're currently into
and let's get into it.
Welcome to today's episode ofthe Motherhood Mentor Podcast.

(00:46):
Today, I have a really funguest with me, robin.
I found I don't even rememberhow I found her, but I think one
of her reels had popped up onhelping kids with anxiety and I
immediately.
It was one of those reels whereI was like immediately followed
, immediately went to your pageand was like, ooh, this is so,
so good, and so I'm so excitedabout this conversation we're

(01:08):
going to have today abouthelping your kids with anxiety,
parenting, anxiety and kids.
This has been a topic that Ipersonally am super interested
in, both for my kids, but alsoworking with a lot of clients
who experienced things like this.
So, robin, I'm so excited tohave you.
Will you introduce yourself?

Speaker 2 (01:26):
Yes, so I'm Robin Eisman.
I'm a licensed independentclinical social worker out of
Massachusetts.
I'm a therapist and I run aprivate practice.
The reason I hesitate when Isay therapist and private
practice is because I feel likeeverything has become more at
this point.
I feel like there's also nowbecome this education component

(01:49):
to things, of really trying toget this message out.
So I started my Instagram, Ithink a couple years ago,
parenting the anxious child, andI've really taken on this niche
of working primarily withparents of anxious kids.
Originally I was working withwhen I first graduated grad
school.
I was working with kids andfamilies and that's always been
an interest of mine of workingwith the dynamic between the two

(02:12):
, because kids don't exist insilos and it's really helpful to
know the whole family dynamic.
I did in-home family therapyfor a while and just the dynamic
.
A lot exists within the dynamic.
So when I started doing aprivate practice, I worked with
kids and teens with anxiety.
I call anxiety the gatewaydiagnosis a lot because it's

(02:36):
often anxiety symptoms are thefirst symptoms that parents
respond to because they aredisruptive.
So kids would come with anxietyand I'd be working with the
individual child or teen, but Ialways had to also work with the
parent, because you can'treally do the work, like I said,
in isolation.

(02:56):
Then a couple years ago, I foundthis protocol called SPACE,
which is Supportive Parenting ofAnxious Childhood, of anxious
childhood emotions, and it'sevidence based out of yale,
created by ellie leibowitz, andI found it and like it's just,
it lit up, just I just felt likeit was the thing I'd been
looking for my whole career,basically because it is the only

(03:19):
evidence-based treatment provento decrease childhood anxiety
by only working with parents,which is incredibly powerful
because kids' brains are notfully developed and sometimes
kids aren't willing, sosometimes adults aren't willing
either, but in this situation,sometimes kids and teens aren't

(03:40):
ready, maybe they lack someinsight or maybe they just don't
have time.
Whatever it is, working with theparents is incredibly powerful
and effective.
And now I use primarily spacewith all of my clients.
I primarily work with parentsand what I have found is that

(04:01):
the change which is what it'sevidence-based to show is that
the change is quicker, it's moreimpactful to the whole family.
So even though they come withone child in mind and the
protocol kind of follows one kid, it changes the way you view
and respond to anxiety as awhole.
So your household changes.

(04:22):
So that's kind of like.
I guess I don't know if that'san explanation of me or space,
but now we've become one.
So that's kind of where I am atnow, which is, I am like
immersed in childhood anxietyand the impact that parent work
has.

Speaker 1 (04:39):
Yeah, I'm, I'm so excited to talk about this.
You mentioned like that anxietyis often like the disruptive
thing, that kind of it's likethe bubbling thing that really
gets your attention because youknow, you think of working,
parenting and an anxious kid isa lot, it's a lot on the parents
.
They're feeling anxious,they're, you know, vacillating

(05:00):
between do I just like reallyhigh control, high boundaries,
high expectations?
Is that too much?
Or you know, this gentleparenting stuff, this
permissiveness like doesn't workwith this kid because they're
so anxious, like you know, and Iwork with a lot of moms who are
struggling in that area.
So I'm curious, if you can,what does anxiety often look

(05:22):
like in kids and even like, fromyour perspective, what is
anxiety often look like in kidsand even like, from your
perspective, what is anxiety?
Because it's one of those wordsthat we use all the time and
then no one's actually defining.
What does this look and feellike in the clinical sense?
But I'm also curious, likebefore clinical sense, yeah,
like in your, your kid who'slike this is normal run of run

(05:42):
of the.
I hate using the word normal.
Yeah, but this is within the.
This is normal run of run ofthe.
I hate using the word normal.
Yeah, this is within the.
This is within a healthy humanexperience where, like, they're
not suffering but they're havinga hard time with it.
Does that make sense?
Totally, totally.

Speaker 2 (05:55):
So I love that you asked what is anxiety and that
you acknowledge that it's abuzzword, because actually in my
trainings and in my membershipthat I created in the course in
there is it starts with definingwhat is anxiety.
Space starts with that.
That's where I learned howvaluable that was, and the
reason is is because right nowanxiety is such a buzzword and

(06:18):
even though it comes from aclinical diagnosis, we don't use
it only clinically anymore.
Now it's like I have anxiety, Ilove anxiety.
So on, getting on the same pageabout what anxiety is is a very
important piece.
So the way I explained it fromthe beginning in my work one on
one and also in trainings, isthat it is a and, by the way, I

(06:38):
not don't claim to have createdthis like this is how it is
explained by the experts, whichI am now among.
But the way I've learned iswhat is anxiety is?
It is explained by the experts,which I am now among, but the
way I've learned is what isanxiety is?
It is biological, it issomething we have because we are
mammals.
It is a threat response, analarm bell that goes off where
it gets signaled that there issome sort of threat in our

(07:00):
environment and so we need toreact to it.
So it is just a biologicalresponse to a perceived threat.
That threat varies for people,so that's where we can both
respect that it is trulyhappening and we can push people

(07:22):
a bit, including our kids, toshift how they are experiencing
a threat.
So it's not that we don'tbelieve it's serious or that
their body is having a response.
It's that we are saying it'spossible that this threat is not
dangerous the way it feels oris perceived to you.

(07:43):
So anxiety is an alarm bell.
It's a signal going off becauseof a perceived threat.
It is also important toacknowledge that in your brain,
when this alarm bell goes off,adrenaline rushes and your
amygdala goes on, which is yourthreat response, like your
survival brain and yourprefrontal cortex goes off,

(08:04):
which is your reasoning and yourrational thinking.
And the reason that's soimportant is because when kids
are anxious, more often than notwhen you don't know what to do,
you engage too much.
We rationalize, we negotiatewith them, we bribe them, we try

(08:25):
to convince them that theiranxiety is ridiculous.
But one is if your survivalbrain is on, you are in survival
mode, which means you cannottell someone that is in that
mode that they will be fine.
They're not going to hear thatand their rational thinking,
their cognitive reasoning, isoffline, so they aren't in the

(08:49):
conversation with you anymore.
It's like they're in puresurvival.
So anxiety is a biologicalresponse that we all have, and
we have it to varying degrees.
And when something becomes adisorder it's more looked at as
that.
The response is more extremethan makes sense.

(09:10):
I mean there's obviouslycriteria to a diagnosis, but I'm
thinking like if a car iscoming at you and you are scared
, that is an appropriateresponse.
If you walk into school and youcan't, If you walk into school

(09:30):
and you physically freezebecause people are scary to you,
that perception is off a bitand we want to work with someone
to broaden their capacity to beable to tolerate.
It doesn't mean that's not truethat they experience the people
the same as the car, but weknow the car is dangerous.
We know the car can hurt you.

(09:51):
The school, unless there's anoutlier situation, is not
hurting you, so that's thedifference.
And that's when things becomemore of a disorder, when you're
like your response is notmatching the risk.

Speaker 1 (10:04):
you're like your response is not matching the
risk.
Yeah, well, and what I'm hearingtoo, is that it's it's it's
impacting your ability to do thethings that you want or need to
do.
Yeah, and I think what'sinteresting when you were
talking, I'm someone who'sexperienced this like in my own
body and I've witnessed it in mykids too, and one of the things

(10:25):
I've noticed, at least for me,is what empowered me with my
kids was actually knowing what Iwas experiencing, like what
anxiety actually was and how todeal with it and how to move
through it.
Because you're right, when youwere talking about, like, how we
respond to our kids whenthey're anxious, that whole,
like if I was in an anxietyattack and my husband he's not

(10:48):
someone who had experienced that, it's not that he hadn't
experienced other emotions, butlike that one in particular,
just like it wasn't on hisflavor, I guess, wasn't on his
venue for his body.
For me it's like if he would belike calm down, you're okay.
That's like like never, never,once, ever, has that made
someone better, right, it'snever been like oh okay, oh,

(11:10):
you're right, I'm fine.
Why didn't I, why didn't Ithink of just calming down and
not being sweet, like now I feelgreat.
Thank you so much right and yetI've I found myself doing that
to my kids because their anxietyis giving me anxiety.
I was going to say you'refeeding off of each other and
it's like, as a parent, there'sthis, like I need this to stop.

(11:31):
There's there's so much emotionand I think I'm I'm really
curious about why you work withparents instead of kids and how
that impacts them, because Imean, that's my whole philosophy
, like the motherhood mentor.
People will be like, oh so youare coaching on parenting and
it's like, not really, I'mcoaching the parent, and when

(11:52):
the parent, when the parent issolid, their parenting will
follow.
So I'm curious for you whatthat looks like.

Speaker 2 (11:59):
Yeah, and I always want to say I have a lot of.
I'm going to answer obviously,yeah, yeah, and I always want to
say I have a lot of I'm goingto answer obviously.

(12:21):
I want to say also again thisis because kids' brains that
like that, the effect is lastinglonger, that the that they're
able to, their anxiety hasdecreased longer and they can
see that.
So, but so one is it's, it'sevidence-based, but the when you
think about it, the reason itmakes sense to me is because

(12:43):
when a kid this is kind of truefor adults too, but I'm going to
use the word kid a lot becausethat's what we're talking about
when a kid is anxious, first ofall, the kid's brain is not
fully developed and I say thisrepeatedly because people forget
and brains are not often fullydeveloped until you're like
between 23 and 25.
So when I say kid, I also meanit's a pretty long span.

(13:05):
So one is you don't have thesame impulse control, you don't
have the same rational thinkingthat a fully formed brain has.
So what you're doing withsomeone in therapy, week after
week, teaching them copingskills, teaching them to
understand their anxiety, maybeyou're playing and there's room
for some of these therapytechniques.
But if all you're doing isworking with a kid week after

(13:28):
week, providing them these, thiseducation, these skills, it is
possible they're absorbing someof it, but this brain out in the
world cannot access it in thosemoments.
That's a kid anyways.
And then an anxious brain, likeI just said, is in survival
mode.
So an anxious brain especiallycan't.

(13:50):
So if you leave all the work upto the child to do, they
physically can't do that, likeit's not that they don't want to
.
There are many kids that come tome wanting to help their
anxiety.
They have full willingness,they are insightful, they are
interested and they're wonderfulclients.

(14:10):
To add to the mix you can,especially depending on their
age and, like I said, theirinsight.
You can totally do that, butwithout the parent responding in
a way that is.
You know there's a way that wetalk about.
Responding is the way thatbuilds confidence and is
validating.
Without that, when you have aparent who is maybe constantly

(14:33):
accommodating, constantlyreassuring their anxiety, a kid
who is the most you know willingand trying so hard, if you have
a parent who's constantlyaccommodating your anxiety on
the other side, that is alwaysgoing to be stronger than the
anxious brain.
Does that make sense?

(14:54):
Like the anxious?
No, actually, the anxious brainis the strongest thing and the
parent and the anxious brain aredoing the same thing.
The brain inside your kid, thepart of the brain that says but
I do want to go to school, or Ido want to go on this play date,
or I do want to do this bravething.
The brain inside your kid, thepart of the brain that says but
I do want to go to school, or Ido want to go on this play date,
or I do want to do this bravething.
It's not going to win if noone's supporting it.
So that's why the parent has todo the work of understanding

(15:16):
anxiety and understanding what'shappening and learning what
language to use.
And then the next part of spaceis we learn the behavior you're
doing, the accommodation and howto decrease it.
So we literally change theparent's behavior in response to
their child's anxious symptoms.
We don't try to change thekid's anxious symptoms because

(15:39):
the behavior the parent's doingis what's perpetuating the loop.
So that was a long answer ofthe kid physically can't do it
and even when they really wantto and maybe could do a glimmer
of it if they are met with anaccommodation.
That's what's going to happen.
Their anxiety is going to stayin control.

(16:01):
So we need the parent.
We need the parent to do thework.
If the parent does not upholdthe boundary or uphold their
shift, like their understandingof the anxiety and their
encouragement, the anxiety isalways going to win.
I want to explain sort of what,what the approach is like, the

(16:23):
mindset.

Speaker 1 (16:24):
So I met.
Before we jump into that,though, yeah, I want to pause
because you said something thatI know for a lot of moms is just
going to like.
It's just like going to hitthem in the heart of, oh, what
I've been doing has eitherperpetuated this or made it
worse, and there's going to bethat mom guilt or that mom shame
, and I witnessed this all thetime, and before we started

(16:47):
recording, you were talkingabout that and I wanted to just
pause there for those women whoare hearing this and they're
going, oh, what I can do canmake it worse, but also what I
hear, what you can do can makeit so much better, can we talk
about that for a minute beforewe go into the framework and
what we do, like how this feelsfor parents.

Speaker 2 (17:08):
Yeah, I mean it's.
It's really complicated.
I'm so glad you did that.
You pause there.
We should pause for that, let'spause for that.

Speaker 1 (17:17):
Some women are going to hear that and you're like
great, I can fix this, tell mehow.
Some are like yeah, and thensome are gonna hear that and
they're just gonna like, oh,they're not hearing your words
anymore.

Speaker 2 (17:30):
yeah, yeah so you're not alone is the first thing I
would say to those people.
Um, often I would say moreoften than not, especially now,
as this is like just starting toreally not.
Space has been around for awhile, but this mindset is
shifting because of the anxiousgeneration book and there's more

(17:51):
about parent work now in thelast couple of years.
Um, but even still, when aparent is referred to me, there
is some level of but my kid isancient, like there is some of
me having to kind of talk thisthrough, like what you're saying

(18:13):
.
So we're talking it through onthe podcast, but I also talk
this through with clientsindividually.
Like this comes up prettyfrequently, which is a feeling
of guilt, a feeling of sometimesit's defensiveness, guilt, a
feeling of sometimes it'sdefensiveness, and the reason is
is because all accommodationsfor your child anxiety happen

(18:34):
out of love.
They happen out of a naturalbiological instinct that we all
have to protect our babies, andso it's so the first thing I
would say is, if you've beenaccommodating and and we've've
decided that that makes anxietyworse, because that's just what
we've learned you have beendoing that because you love them

(18:55):
, so it is not from a place ofevil or shame, or there is
nothing to be ashamed of if yournatural instinct is to
accommodate at all.

Speaker 1 (19:08):
Well, I think it's culturally, especially for a
long time I think it's been hugeculturally that when you ask a
mom, what do you want in yourmotherhood, oh, I want my kids
to be happy and it's like, well,that's a completely unrealistic
expectation, that sucks.
But it's true that I think alot of moms feel like it's their

(19:29):
job to make sure that theirkids are happy all the time.
So then their kids beinganxious, of course they're going
to try to accommodate theanxiety.
What is accommodation?
Because all of a sudden I'mlike, okay, I know what that
means, you know what that means.
But like, when a mom'saccommodating anxiety, what does
that look like?
What does that mean?

Speaker 2 (19:47):
yeah, so, yeah, you're asking all the right
questions.
So accommodation, like anxiety,is a buzzword also because if
you're in the world of kids andif you've ever done, you know in
Massachusetts they're calledIEPs, individualized education
plans, or there's other planslike that.
They're full of accommodationsthat are completely valuable and

(20:10):
necessary.
So you might have a kid thatlike requires certain
accommodations at school or itcould be learning-based.
There's lots of physical, lotsof ways we accommodate our kids
that are very important.
What we have learned is foranxiety it makes it worse.
So there's some diagnoses whereyou need it to make.
What I've said before is mostaccommodations make your world

(20:32):
bigger.
When you accommodate anxiety,you make the world smaller, so
you're making things less scary,which often makes it smaller.
The way we define accommodationin space is anything you are
doing or not doing because ofyour child's anxious emotions.
So it is anything you areeither avoiding or building in

(21:00):
to your system, your familysystem, and you're doing it
because of the anxious emotions.
Some primary examples are well,I'm going to give you here this
is what I'm thinking right now.
The way to think about what anaccommodation is is not about
your child's anxiety.
It's about how you respond.
So, for example, it's not thatmy kid won't sleep at night.

(21:23):
The accommodation is that youlay with them.
If you have a kid that won't goto sleep alone, the
accommodation is that you'relaying with them.
If you have a kid that won't goto sleep alone, the
accommodation is that you'relaying with them.
If you have a kid who'sconstantly texting you from
school, the accommodation wouldbe that you're answering.
Or if you have a kid that'sconstantly asking for
reassurance, like am I going tobe okay, am I going to do well

(21:43):
on this test?
I'm asking you.
Them asking is the anxioussymptom.
You answering is theaccommodation.
So it's anything that you'redoing or not doing.
Because of that, a lot.
There's so many examples.
When I go through trainings Ihave this sheet that is very
overwhelming.
Intentionally, that lists likea ton of examples because they

(22:05):
vary so much.
Sometimes it's speaking for akid and that's why selective
mutism is often a diagnosis thatwe can work with parents on.
That can decrease the selectivemutism because people will
accommodate by speaking fortheir kid constantly and so
that's a natural way that thataffirms that anxiety, because

(22:28):
your parent is constantly doingit for you.
So you learn oh, I have.
I need my parent.
I need my parent to do this forme.
Sometimes it's there.
Another really popular oneright now is a diagnosis called
ARFID, which is a foodrestriction disorder, which is
also anxiety based, is a foodrestriction disorder which is

(22:49):
also anxiety based, and so what?
So it's, the ARFID is the kid'sdiagnosis, but the
accommodation could be like youstop putting certain foods out
because they don't like them, oryou stop buying them, or you
stop attending dinners with yourfamily, things like that.
So that's an example.
Some really common ones.
The laying in bed is like, Iwould say, bedtime is like,
probably most common, andreassurance, providing

(23:11):
reassurance.
Those are usually the two thatare the most common.
But one other one that I seeall the time is if you have a
kid that's afraid of a pet, likeafraid of dogs, and this is
very natural, like a lot of kidswhen they're little are afraid
of dogs.
They're the same size, they runup on them, all of that.
But parents approach itdifferently.
And as long as long as the kiddoesn't have any like serious

(23:32):
allergies, obviously, um, butthe parents approach differently
.
Some people will say, put yourdog away, like they'll want the
person they're going to to putthe dog away, and some hosts
will be like I'll put the dogaway, but the what we really
want is there to be a messagingthat says you can be scared of
this thing, this dog.
I didn't mean to call the dog athing, but you can be scared of

(23:55):
this animal.
That can give you a signal, athreat response, and so that's
the validation.
I see that you're scared ofthis dog.
I see how hard that is for youto go to this house with this
dog dog.
I see how hard that is for youto go to this house with this
dog and I believe that you couldhandle being scared and that is
the confidence.
So the accommodation is whenparents say put the dog away, or

(24:17):
we won't go to their house orwe just won't have friends with
dogs, or something like that.
And people do it very subtly atthe beginning, like I have.
We have a family member thatwhen the kid was little they
were afraid of balloons and someparents would have just said,
oh, we just don't need to haveballoons in the house and, yes,

(24:38):
that is a small thing.
That probably is not thebiggest deal in the world, but
one if you go to a birthdayparty ever, there's a balloon,
so you don't want that to getworse, because it actually can
become like very frustrating.
And two, it affirms when I'mscared of something, my most
trusted person, my parent,solves it for me and I am not

(25:01):
capable of being scared andstill making it through.
And they've affirmed that bysolving it by removing the
balloons.

Speaker 1 (25:09):
So it's all like yeah but no, like it's like I hear
what you're saying of, like it'saffirming the anxiousness,
whereas like anxiousness isdifferent than fear, in that
fear is there's an actual activethreat and I need this fear to
be getting to safety right.
Correct me if you have adifferent view on this.

(25:29):
Anxiety is I have the feelingthat there's this active threat,
but the reality is that likethere's actually nothing
threatening me right now, likethe threat is not in the room
Right right, or the threat is inthe room but like a balloon's
not actually a threat to mywellbeing, the dog's not a
threat to my wellbeing.
As you were sharing this, I'mthinking of all the but what

(25:50):
about trauma?
But what about attachment?
But what about you know at whatage you know if they're an
attachment parent and they'resaying you know what, if that is
a biological need for my kid tolay next to me versus anxiety?
I'm curious how you know, whenyou're working through, what is
anxiousness and what is thebiological need or you know, is

(26:14):
accommodating ever appropriatein cases with trauma or things
like I'm thinking likeattachment?

Speaker 2 (26:20):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (26:21):
Or do you feel like underlying it's still
accommodating the anxiety, whichjust makes it bigger, and then
they never win, right?

Speaker 2 (26:36):
So there's a couple things.
One is we have a process ofchecking in about if something
is an accommodation versus justa parenting style, so, or an
accommodation for anxiety versusa parenting style.
So yeah, we got you got.
You kind of want to askyourself, like do I, if you have
more than one kid, do I do thisfor all my kids or only my
anxious kid?
Do I do it only because they'reanxious?
Like do I, am I laying with ifI haven't?

(26:56):
For example, if you're anattachment parent and you and
forgive me if I use the wrongjargon or anything but if you're
focused on sleeping, if you'reco-sleeping, then I would assume
you're co-sleeping with allyour kids.

Speaker 1 (27:09):
You're not co-sleeping with just one,
because they're it's anintentional choice you're making
versus a reflexive response toyour kids' anxiety.
That's what I'm hearing fromyou.
There's a difference betweenwe're actively choosing to do
this as a family versus we arecentering what we do as a family
around the anxiety Versus.
We are centering what?

Speaker 2 (27:29):
we do as a family around anxiety, right?
So basically, so that's yeah,you just said it very
beautifully.
It's a reflexive responseVersus something that you're
doing for a parent and becauseyou're a parent and you can ask
yourself too do I want to stop?
So if the answer is no, Ialways say to parents I never, I
don't tell people what theiraccommodations are.

(27:50):
So if someone came to me andthey said they map out, there's
a process in this, that whereyou map out your own
accommodation, so if you don'tput it on there, I'm not saying
but do you sleep with them?
Because that's not important tome, it's not.
What matters is are you doing,you're trying to help your kids
anxiety?
What are the things you'redoing because, or not doing

(28:16):
because of their anxiety, and doyou want to stop doing that?
So, for example, the sleepingis a good one with attachment
and if some, like I said, ifsomeone's laying with my, with
their child, that is totallyfine.
And if that helps them, if thatmakes them happy, and even if
it doesn't make them happy, ifit's just a comfortable thing
that they don't mind doing andthey're doing it with whatever
kid needs it, that's fine.

(28:36):
If you're saying I can't leavethe house at night because of
this.
That's a different thing.

Speaker 1 (28:41):
And I think this is important because I think that's
what's for me when I'm workingwith women.
That's what stops the guilt andshame spiral is the like is
this working for you, yeah, isthis working for you?
Does this work for you, doesthis work for your kid?
And if the answer is no, let'schange that.

(29:01):
This is an opportunity and itdoesn't help us to spiral about
why you did it or like there'snothing wrong with you other
than this doesn't work for you.
Let's change it.
Let's make it better for youand for your kid Versus.
If this works for you, okay.
If this works for your kid,okay.
Like, yeah, keep it, and Iguess you don't need my help.

Speaker 2 (29:23):
You know Exactly Well that happens a lot where I'll
say to people, like when peoplepush back a little bit, I'll be
like you know, you don't have todo this.
Like this, I was like it's fine,like, but also the other thing
is, is the goal of youraccommodation is, or the goal of
what you're doing is love andattachment and all this stuff?

(29:43):
But then when you start torealize that some of it is
actually making life harder foryour kid ultimately so it's also
about perspective taking of,like I'm doing this thing
because I believed, believe,slash, believed that this is
actually what made their lifebetter Then all of a sudden you
realize, oh, maybe it's actuallynot helping them form this like

(30:05):
big life that I, that they want, or that I want for them, and
so maybe I'm going to shiftsomething.
So it might not be working foryou as a parent and also might
not be doing what you, what youmeant to do.
Yeah, because it might actuallylike with attachment.
There is part of attachment issecure attachment, which means
leaving and coming back.
It doesn't mean just stayingtogether.

(30:29):
You can sense that I'm being alittle careful, but the other
thing I wanted to comment on waswhat you said about trauma.
So something that's reallyinteresting is the response that
people have about if theanxiety is valid, does it change
this, if the person actuallyexperienced something that is

(30:53):
worthy of this need for thisaccommodation, and I would argue
and I've worked with manypeople where this is the case, I
would actually argue that allanxiety is valid, but I've
worked with many people wherethe kid has experienced trauma
the loss of a parent, maybe it'strauma in the classroom, like
so that so that they developfear of school or anxiety around

(31:15):
school.
So there's a lot of ways wherethis, or they got into a car
accident, so then they haveanxiety around cars or something
like that.
I would argue that this is evenmore important when there is
trauma because you're saying, ifyou say to someone, because
you've experienced this, you cannever do more Like and

(31:41):
supportive language which iswhat I was saying earlier
validation plus confidence.
It gives the opportunity to saylike yes, this is 100% real and
I still believe you can healthrough this.
I still believe in you.
And I would argue it's evenmore important because if the
brain has experienced trauma,the brain will tell you never to

(32:02):
do things.
That is a response and or to dothings that are not positive
for you.
So if you have everyone elsemeeting you with that and
accommodating that, thatmessaging or affirming it,
you're going to stay in thatlane and so like.
For example, I've worked withparents whose kids have lost

(32:24):
their like.
I've worked with like oneparent who lost their spouse and
their kid lost their parent,have lost their like.
I've worked with like oneparent who lost their spouse and
their kid lost their parent andthe child required sleeping
with the mom so she could hearher breathe, so that she knew
she was alive.
There is nothing morelegitimate than that.
I'm like this is a small childwho wants to know that her mom
is alive because one of herparents literally died.

(32:45):
So that makes tons of sense tome.
We don't first of all justdecide okay, we're not, that's
absurd, you're gonna not sleepwith her.
Like, that's not that.
But we ultimately do want toencourage the idea that you
don't have to hear someonebreathing to know they're alive,
like.
So if you constantly say like,yes, I will sleep with you

(33:07):
because that's the only way youbelieve I'm alive, you're
affirming this anxiety that ifI'm not right here, breathing,
that means I could be dead.
And if you're constantlyaffirming that anxiety, that's
like a that's.
That's also not super helpful,because we want this kid to be
able to individuate at somepoint.
You know what I mean, andobviously we're being gentle and

(33:29):
age appropriate with everythingwe do, but the concept that
this wouldn't be appropriate forsomeone with trauma I actually
would argue that it's theopposite it's like incredibly
supportive.

Speaker 1 (33:42):
Yeah, I love what you shared there I was.
I was literally just thinkingbefore this wasn't even.
I wasn't even thinking aboutour podcast yet.
But this morning I was thinkingof my husband actually and how
he didn't accommodate me and Ireally hated that.
I had a lot of anxiety and I wasstill trying to heal from some

(34:03):
trauma stuff and what'sinteresting is that eventually I
realized I wanted him so Iwanted so deeply because I had a
lot of immaturity, I had a lotof anxiety.
I wanted him to affirm it, Iwanted him to accommodate it, I
wanted him to validate it.
But by him not doing that,that's actually a lot of what

(34:26):
helped me heal.
And I didn't like it, by theway, I really did not like it.
I was mad at him of therapyvalidating what was wrong.
Yeah, because that's whathelped me recognize I'm okay, I

(34:54):
have this feeling, but likethat's not happening anymore.
It really truly gave me freedomfrom this thing that was.
It was still taking over my life.
Things in childhood, thingsthat happened in childhood, were
still taking over my adult life, my decision making, what I did
and didn't do, and it could beparalyzing at times and it's so

(35:16):
fascinating that I'm sittinghere like, oh, he was doing this
and he didn't even know it.
But I'm curious can you sharemore about this framework, about
, like I'm sure there's so manymoms who are listening and
they're going.
Okay, I've been accommodating.
What else do I do?
Yeah, what else do I do and howdo I do it?
Because I can only imagine thisas an emotional process for the
parents.

Speaker 2 (35:37):
So, first of all, what you just said is is the
whole, is the goal summed up,which is that you are someone
who loves you, is saying yes, Isee you and I believe more for
you, and so the fact that you'relike a result of that and it
might and I also often say topeople, this is evidence-based

(36:00):
for parent, child, but itchanges how you view it Anxiety
as a whole.
Yeah, so I say, think about itfor yourself, think about it for
your spouse, think about it allthat.
So I just love that you justshared that.
That's such a great example andit's and I also it also shows
what something I say to parentsa lot which we can kind of go

(36:23):
back to those parents who pause,maybe feeling some guilt and
shame, shame which is that thisis loving, this is supportive,
like to not accommodate is oftenthe harder thing, because
people get mad at you likeyou're describing like kids.
It's actually harder to do thatsometimes, even though people
think, oh, but accommodating isreally hard.

(36:44):
But emotionally, notaccommodating is very hard
because you're constantlyneeding to reassure, kind of say
to yourself like, okay, we'redoing this for a reason, but it
is so loving to set boundaries.
It is like boundaries are soloving and I it makes me sad
when people feel like they're sonegative, cause I'm like it's
the most loving healthy thingyou can do is have boundaries

(37:06):
with people in your life,including.

Speaker 1 (37:07):
It's different than a punishment.
Oh, it's so different.
I think underneath people feellike a boundary is I'm punishing
you for your behavior, but aboundary is like I love you
enough to tell you the truthabout what's happening.

Speaker 2 (37:23):
Yeah, and I love you enough to believe in you.
I love you enough to trust ourrelationship that this boundary
won't hurt it.
I love that there's so muchlove in a boundary.
Like I said, boundaries arebridges, not walls, like they're
like a way that you build.
So that is a little bit of atangent, but I just love your
story.
That that's like reallybeautiful and whether it sounds

(37:43):
like he wasn't doing it onpurpose, but it sounds like it
was what you needed.
He was doing it.

Speaker 1 (37:47):
I mean he was doing it because he loved me and he
had never it just didn't occurto him to account.
I mean, part of it ispersonality and it's not that he
was ever cruel or unloving orthat he wasn't empathetic to how
I was feeling, but he didn'tchange his behaviors based off
of how I felt, and that isactually what created right, if

(38:07):
we're looking at secureattachment, exactly, quite
literally, in this.
I mean, in this case, if youwere thinking like I'm the child
and he's the parent, becauseessentially, maturity wise, I
wanted him, I wanted him tochange his behavior based off of
how I felt.
And he didn't do that.
Yeah, he just kept being honestand true and loving and kind.

Speaker 2 (38:49):
And while I didn't always like that, he kept doing
that, which actually taught mynervous system oh, we're safe
here because we know exactly howhe's going to show up and he
you don't know how you want togo into all this, but I love it
because it is a very clearexample and it is the hope of
what is experienced for the kid,which is that I can trust my
parent to be stable and steady,regardless of my emotions and
responses.
So, like you, don't ask yourkid to not be anxious.
You are so confident and steadyand validating that it doesn't

(39:13):
matter.
And then they start to trustthat, no matter what, their
feelings are not going to pullyou in.
They're not and their feelingsare not in control.
There are so many people I workwith where one or more of the
children's anxiety iscontrolling the whole house and
that is not.
That is miserable for parents,but it is also miserable for the

(39:33):
kids, because the kids are set.
A message is sent that this isthe.
This is the most importantperson in the house.

Speaker 1 (39:40):
It is my anxiety, yeah like, yeah, and I work with
a lot of women who had motherswho never emotionally
disconnected in that way andthey still feel emotionally
responsible for their mothers,like it created that
codependency.
Yeah, now they're looking attheir relationship with their
kids and they're like, whoa, Inever want my kids to feel
emotionally responsible for me,but I think we don't recognize,

(40:04):
oh, when my behaviors andemotions change based off of
their emotions.
That's them being in charge ofmy emotions.
That's them having to parent meinstead of me parenting them.
But that's hard, that is hard.

Speaker 2 (40:19):
It's really hard, and the example that I use a lot
for a personal example is I havea child who, when and when I
leave the house to go out atnight, they cry like no matter
what.
Like it's my oldest kid, almost10.
Like no matter what is they askme at the beginning of the week
are going out at all this week,and then it's like we have to,

(40:40):
and it never changes what I do.
So I so, and it is hard, likeit is sad, and sometimes I also
don't even want to go becauseI'm tired and I actually want to
cancel.
That's so real, that's so real,right, but I don't cancel
because I can't have her get themessage that her emotion

(41:00):
decides if I go out, and it hasnothing to do with going out, it
has to do with the fact thatthat is too much power to give
your emotion for us to like,listen to it.
And so this is an example ofjust how I do it, which is that
she'll start asking me and Iwill say, oh, I'm not sure.
And then I'll say and then Imight.
If I don't lie, like if I doknow I'm going out, I'll tell
her.
But I also don't not makespontaneous plans.

(41:23):
I don't.
I don't do anything differentlybecause I have this child.
Like that is the, that is thepoint, that's like one example
of how this works out.
So you asked me, I think youasked me like what do you do, or
what's the?

Speaker 1 (41:36):
like what do we do?
What is, what is the frameworkand the formula?
But before we jump, into that.
I have a really fast questionthat I think will be fast.
Yeah, is there a certain agewhere this starts being
effective?
Right, cause I'm thinking aboutlike a toddler.
Right, I just had, like mynephew who's a toddler and I'm
thinking like, okay, at whatpoint am I accommodating him?

(41:57):
Cause, right, like they getupset at everything.
Yeah, like that's just whattoddlers do in there, like I
want the world to surround me.
So I'm curious, like, what gap,what age frame?
I mean I'm thinking this willhelp any age.

Speaker 2 (42:12):
Yeah.
So the way I mean it is there'slike a three, like a, there's
ages.
I would say I've seen it helpparents.
Of the reason it feels like itwill help any age is because we
are not working with the child'sage, we are working with the
relationship between the parentand child.
We are working with therelationship between the parent
and child.
So that does not change.

(42:33):
Like you just described yourclients whose parents have still
impact their emotions, likethat does not always change.
So because of that I,anecdotally, like it is
effective, like it is effectiveto start setting to not
accommodate your kid.
If you have a kid who's incollege comes home.
So space also has a training,which I've also done for failure

(42:55):
to launch.
So that's why the age questionis difficult, because you should
get trained in it, like itisn't just an X, it isn't just
like whatever, but it there isvalue to this work, even when
your kid is an adult.
Because if you areaccommodating their anxiety
around something, maybe theirsocial anxiety, maybe it's
something about their work, likemaybe they're not getting a job

(43:16):
because of it, maybe there's ageneralized anxiety about just
like going out into the world.
Whatever it is, if you areaccommodating it, you're
accommodating it.
It doesn't matter the age, Iwould say.
I start working with parents offour-year-olds, like four is
like a good age, where theystart to be like maybe the
parent is more ready to not laywith them as much and then the

(43:37):
kid isn't like allowing it, orthey're struggling at the
drop-off at daycare, or maybethey're being more restrictive
with their food, and so, likefour, I feel like tend to be
where parents are like oh, mykid is exhibiting these signs
and there are.
At four the kid is the parentsare really able to verbally

(43:59):
explain what they're doing in anage appropriate way, because
space includes informing thechild of your plans to change
your behavior.
So we don't just like stoplaying.
We say to the kids, we say likeoh, we're so proud of you.
Blah, blah, blah.
And then there's a phase ofspace called the announcement
where we actually say to a childI've noticed that you get

(44:22):
anxious, nervous around bedtimeand you can use the word anxious
if you want around bedtime, andI now know that when I lay with
you every night it doesn't help.
You be less nervous every day.
So you explain it to them, sothere's.
So when you're four you cankind of like have that little
bit.
I mean you might make it alittle different, but I would

(44:42):
say four is when I start seeingpeople more preventatively
because by because usually atfour they wouldn't have a
diagnosis people morepreventatively because by
because usually at four theywouldn't have a diagnosis um,
and then I would say parents.
A lot of it has to do withparents feelings of the fact
that they feel more in controlof their younger kids.
Um, I think it's harder forparents to uh wrap their minds

(45:06):
around the fact that they cancontrol things they do with
their teens and their older kids, like not answering a text at
school, like that's a hardconcept to like that's a weird,
that's a hard feeling but tohave, but it is effective.
So like it's not about it's notabout the age isn't really
effective.
It's like how the parent viewstheir parenting phase.
You know, yeah.

Speaker 1 (45:27):
I absolutely hear what you're saying and I think
too it's interesting you usethat word control and I think
that has to be like a big piecein it.
But I'm so, I'm so excited tohear more of like the framework
and a little bit of what thatlooks like.

Speaker 2 (45:46):
So the first thing we teach, well, first we teach the
foundations of, like, what isanxiety and all that which we
kind of talked about.
The first tool that is taught inspace is called supportive
language, and I mentioned itwhich is the combination of
validation and confidence.
So most parents swing apendulum back and forth, either
within themselves or within theduo, if there's two parents and

(46:06):
it's the idea that we go.
We go with protective, like alittle bit coddling, enabling,
which we, I guess, would callaccommodating to demanding, like
one is like oh, she doesn'tlike to go to parties, so we're
just gonna rsvp, no, we're noteven gonna ask her.
Like you know more of aprotective style.
Or demanding, like just goalready, like what's the big

(46:30):
deal?
I control, yeah, yeah.
And the way I present it when Ido this work is, I think of it
as a tug of war, so like we'reconstantly in this battle,
either within or sometimespeople will overcompensate if
they have a partner that's liketoo much of one, they'll get too
much of the other Very common,and the issue with that is that

(46:55):
when it's inconsistent it's justconfusing, like when you just
leave it up to chance, like youdo it based on your mood or you
do it based on, like, howannoying the kid's behavior is
or something or how disruptive.
But instead we want you toproactively go into this with
supportive language.
So we want you to always bevalidating.
We want you to say we don'tskip the validation.

(47:16):
That's why I love space so much, because people will think
you're like being a like, theythink you're going one way or
the other.
But I actually, like, when Isee this, I'm like this is meant
for both types of parents,because you don't skip the
validating.
You say like I see you, Ibelieve you, and then you add

(47:36):
the confidence, you add the ideathat, like, even with that
experience, we still believe inyou, and what that does is it
shows that your trusted adultreally, like is believing in you
while it's hard.
So the first part is reallysupportive language.
That's like the first tool andthat tool you can take with you
as like a framework of how yousee anxiety for yourself, for

(47:56):
your partner, anyone.
And then there's a journey of,like mapping your accommodation.
So really thinking of yourwhole day, morning till night,
all week maybe there's holidayaccommodations, anything and you
map them out, you jot them downand then we pick one at a time
to target and the accommodationsare the parents' behavior.
And then we target the parents'behavior.

(48:18):
So I'll say like, oh, whatshould we target?
And a person will say like, oh,she's always asking me
questions and I'm like, no,we're not targeting that, we're
targeting that you're answeringthe question.
So usually when people writedown the accommodations, they'll
word it like from the kids.

Speaker 1 (48:32):
What the kid's doing.
Yeah, and I will go.
Yeah, and I always want thekid's behavior to change.
But that's not actuallyparenting the kid's behavior is
triggering.

Speaker 2 (48:42):
So we're like make it stop.
Yeah, and and and.

Speaker 1 (48:48):
I get it.

Speaker 2 (48:48):
I'm like they're like we just need her to stop, and
I'm like, no, no, she's notgoing to stop, like she's not,
and the idea is, hopefully shedoes stop.
That is the goal, but that'snot what we're going to work on,
because we're not in her body,so like I'm not.

Speaker 1 (49:12):
You don't actually, you like I.
One of the worst parts ofparenting is the realization of
like, how little control youhave.
But once you realize how littleyou control them and how much
you can control you and how muchinfluence and impact you will
have when you control you, whenyou are leading yourself well,
and not this like high control,like you talked about, like that
pendulum of like the highcontrol, high demand, where
you're just like you will dothis there's no empathy, there's
no like affirming or what's thelike your.

(49:37):
Why can't I find the wordEnabling?
No, I'm trying to.
There was.
Oh, my gosh, oh, that demanding,demanding, yeah, like you're
demanding something but you'renever like affirming what
they're experiencing as realwithout affirming but anyways,
there's like those two pendulumsof parenting and I think most

(50:00):
of us can find ourselves likewhat is your go-to?
But when you find that's notworking, sometimes you swing to
the other end, right like I'llwork with these moms who are
like I'm just like I'm trying tobe gentle and I'm trying to not
yell, and then they findthemselves constantly going to
that place because they're notfinding that middle where
there's boundaries andexpectations and follows, where

(50:23):
you're validating but you'realso not accommodating.
I love that word.

Speaker 2 (50:27):
Yeah, which it's like , it's very, and I love it.
Ellie Leibowitz, when he doesthe training he says he says
exactly what you said in a quote.
It is an illusion that we cancontrol our children's behavior
and I just wish that that waslike written on every hospital
room wall.
Like I like like when, likewhen teachers call and they tell

(50:48):
me, like when teachers email meand I have kids that do
interesting things, so whenteachers call and they tell me I
don't write back about it, likeas if I can control it, I'm
like, oh, that's hard Because,like it's not, I can't control
it.
I can like do everything I can Irespond, we have a plan, like

(51:09):
all of that stuff, but I can'tcontrol it.
I can like do everything I can Irespond, we have a plan, like
all of that stuff, but I can'tpretend that I can control this
behavior like I can control.
I have a four-year-old who saysthe f-word and he's been saying
it for like two years and likeI don't, like I literally am
like I'm sorry, like I I'vetried everything and it's gotten
way better.
So what I'm trying is workingbut it's not stopping and and I
can't do it, I'm like I don'tknow what to do.
So the point is is like it isan illusion, and the fact that

(51:32):
we think it isn't is why we feellike failures, because, like
the fact that we think we canand you, if you think you can
and you don't, you failed.
But if it's an illusion, then Ididn't fail.
It's just not possible and wecan't control other people.
So that is a really big part ofit, which is why the

(51:52):
accommodations are all about theparent and often I have oh, go
ahead.

Speaker 1 (51:57):
No, no, you're fine.
When we're talking aboutcontrol, I also think about,
like the parents who do thinkthey control their kids because
their kids are so well-behavedand what's fascinating.
I've worked with some of thosekids as women, essentially, if
you will and they they did.
They had their parents, hadcontrol over them, and now, as

(52:17):
adults, they don't know how tocontrol themselves.
They always need an externalplace of control and when they
don't, they don't trustthemselves.
They don't know how to makethese decisions because their
parents were so good atcontrolling them and they were
just the personality type, orwhatever you want to call it,
where they fell in line to thatparent's control.
To the parents, you know youwill do X, y.

(52:38):
None of it feels okay becausethey were never taught how to
have their own sovereignty.
They were looked at as like anextension of their parents.
So I think it's I just there'sthat interesting again, that

(52:59):
pendulation of both sides havesome health to it.
We need the health of bothparts, but both of them in their
extremes aren't helpful,especially for these kids who
are anxious.
But I really honestly thinkprobably all kids could use this
.

Speaker 2 (53:14):
Well, that's, that's a big thing I created right,
which is why I created this asin a membership style more
education, because there is room, it is a therapy, it is
evidence-based as a therapyspace, but it the education of
how to respond to your kids inthese ways and and to not be
triggered and to have this likeapproach of like yes, I can

(53:36):
believe your feeling and I canstill be believe in you through.
That feeling is valuable, nomatter what.
Yeah, something you just saidmade me think of something.
Oh, I get very when kids areperfectly behaved.
I don't like that.
Sorry, that's a very broadstroke statement, but there is a

(53:59):
balance between being like,well behaved and and acting out
developmentally appropriately,and when kids don't know how to
do that, or think that theyaren't going to be like, um,
loved when they get home orapproved of, or whatever word,
because I believe parents, evenwhen they're doing this, they do

(54:20):
love their kid.
It's not like that.
But when parents are likeresponding in a way that the kid
is scared or something likewhen, then, and they're behaving
because of, like you said, thisexternal locus of validation or
it's just it, that's a red flagto me and so that's why I like
this illusion of the controls,because it's really not about
making them do anything.

(54:41):
We, I really.
The work is really aboutreleasing this idea that we're
going to make your kid dosomething and we're going to
change, and then the anxiety isgoing to decrease and I've seen
that over and over.
So now it is evidence-based andanecdotally, I've seen it just
over and over so you don'taccommodate.

Speaker 1 (54:58):
you meet your kid with this confidence and the
affirmation and then I can onlypicture their anxiety looks like
it escalates, or at least theiremotional response to it.

Speaker 2 (55:10):
Yeah, so basically, so, like I said, you map out
your accommodations and then youpick.
And then when you pick anaccommodation of what you're not
going to do, so we can go withthe bedtime one because it's
common, like, okay, so I'm notgoing to lay with my kid until
they fall asleep, okay.
So then we make a plan together.
So this is a really importantpiece because a lot of times

(55:30):
people will just say, okay, thenjust stop laying.
But we actually make a plan ofwhat it's going to look like.
So how many stories are yougoing to read?
Are you going to say good nightand then be nearby?
What's the plan?
What are you going to do?
And then the reason I'manswering your question in this
way is because this is alllaying a foundation for how the
child, for engaging the childaround this change.

(55:51):
So you make a plan, then we dosomething called stress testing,
which is we actually talkthrough what you're talking
about, worrying about.
Is the kid going to yell?
Sometimes kids are emotionallymanipulative.
They're like you hate me.
They say, oh yeah.
Sometimes they get aggressivephysically.
Sometimes they just shut downand isolate.
So there's lots of differentways.
So we plan for how we're goingto respond to that, which I'll

(56:13):
get to some of those ideas andthen we actually do what I
talked about before called theannouncement.
So this is where we really tellthe kid like I am going to
change something I'm doingbecause I've noticed it's not
working, and the announcement iscompletely framed from the
perspective of the parent.
It's not like you're going todo this, it's all about you all,
about the parent.
So let's say we do all of thatand then we predictably and I

(56:37):
talk about this with parents isthat we expect this, yes, we
expect the kid, you are takingsomething that has been
protective to them.
So like, if you have an anxietyaround bedtime and you let, if
a kid has anxiety around bedtimeand you laying with them has
relieved that anxiety and youtake that away, the anxiety is

(56:58):
going to act out.
So that is normal, that ispredictable.
Like we're not worried aboutthat, like I, that's how, that's
the way I respond.
It's like, yes, this is aboutmaybe unpleasant, this might be
scary, but we are not changingour behavior based on their
reaction.
Because if we do that, then weaffirm that they, that we need

(57:21):
to keep doing the accommodatingand we affirm that their anxiety
is right and it does need to beloud.
So what do we do instead?
So mostly the gist is andthere's language in this in the
book that was written by EllieLeibowitz and also in any
trainings you do with space,which mostly it's a lot of this
idea of like giving room for thefeelings of the kids and being

(57:44):
with them physically maybe, butnot engaging with the back and
forth, with the anxiety.
So there's something calleddelayed response, which is like,
let's say, you have a kid who'slike rapidly firing questions
at you because they're like well, where are you going to be?
What are you going to do?
How many times are you going tohug me?
How about, like that?
So you might use delayedresponse, where you just kind of
like let that happen and youdon't engage in the behavior,

(58:07):
because any emotion or behavioryou engage with is going to last
longer.
So that is their anxiety, likeventing out.
If you go back, it's going to,it becomes a loop.
If you instead can like delayyour response a bit and allow
that space for that and kind oflike take a moment for it to not
to breathe, to be lesstriggered, um, that that is fine

(58:35):
, like we don't mind them doingthat.
We just don't want to feed intoit.
So delayed response.
And then there's another level,sort of disengagement.
So there might maybe it's morethan a delayed response.
Maybe you really are, are likeI'm not going to talk while I'm
in the room or I'm not going toengage with your anxiety.
And then there's also the ideaof like, if you have to do more

(58:56):
of like a sit, in which this isactually talked about in the
book as like more about selfharm and like safety.
But the idea is that you can bewith a child to help them stay
safe without engaging with theiranxiety.
So being with them is notaccommodating.
It's the, it's the likerequirement of it.

(59:18):
So like, what are you doing andare you talking about it?
Are you reassuring them?
So, really, a lot of this isall the way to say you do very
little.
It just feels very hard.

Speaker 1 (59:30):
Yeah, the doing nothing is one of the hardest
things to do, especially if youare someone who is highly
accommodating, who likes to fixthings, who likes to make people
feel better.
I mean, I, this is one of thehardest.
One of the hardest things forme as a parent is to do nothing,
say nothing and just be there.

Speaker 2 (59:47):
Yeah, I always say doing nothing is doing something
.
It is and it's really important.
And, honestly, there's terms Ican say like the delayed
response, disengagement, but atthe end of the day, what I'm
saying is they're allowed tohave their feelings and you
shouldn't change your behaviorbecause of it.

(01:00:07):
So at the end of the day,you're not.
Honestly, we want to justensure safety.
So if you have a kid that youneed to stay nearby or remove
objects from their room orwhatever it is like.
We always want to ensure safety, but we don't have to be
reassuring, we don't have to laywith them because they yelled
all night Like we don't have todo that.

(01:00:29):
So that is the piece.
So that is really the responseis and I would like to offer
people listening to this Everysingle person I talk to talks,
responds to me as if they're anoutlier.
So this is not uncommon, thatkids have a strong reaction to
this.
So I just want people to knowyou're not alone in thinking,

(01:00:50):
yeah, but that would never workfor my kid.
Most people feel that way atfirst and then I just say like,
okay, well, if what you're doingnow is working, that's fine,
and if you want to try somethingelse.
This is another thing to try.
And if you do feel like itreally doesn't work, if you give
it a fair shot, then that'sfine, but I haven't had that
happen.
A fair shot, then that's fine,but I haven't had that happen.

(01:01:11):
Usually what happens is someonewill stop too soon if it's like
not feeling right, or they'lldo the whole thing, and it
really is super helpful.
So, because it takes a lot ofpractice.
It's like we're asking parentsyou said something in the
beginning we didn't acknowledge,which is that it's emotional
work, like you're triggeredduring this, so we have to take
care of you, and a lot ofparents I work with have their
own therapists.

(01:01:31):
So I ask that I say, like, doyou have somewhere to process
what comes up for you duringthis?
And if not, then I can do thatwith them.
But sometimes they have theirown therapist that they work
with.
So it's emotional, it's hard,it's not.
It's easier to just lay withthe kid, it's easier to just lay
with the kid, it's easier andit's delayed.

Speaker 1 (01:01:51):
I would say it's delayed easier.

Speaker 2 (01:01:53):
Right, right, sorry, it's short term easier.

Speaker 1 (01:01:56):
Yeah, but but I think you're right because it's it's
an avoidance of you having todeal with their emotions, which
is, honestly, a lot of what ledme into doing coaching as a mom.
Like for me, like I went andfound coaching because I was
just like shocked at how muchher emotional reactivity or the

(01:02:18):
emotions that came up and I'mtalking like even just toddler
era where all of a sudden Irealized like, oh, I am very
codependent with her emotions.
I wouldn't have used thatlanguage, but like my empathy
and my sensitivity of I wasquickly realizing that, like, so
much of my parenting regulationwas hinged on a toddler's
regulation and I was like thatcan't, this isn't gonna work.

(01:02:41):
This isn't gonna work because,you know, in my brain I had, oh,
I can either go into the likehigh control, spanking,
threatening.
Yeah, well, that doesn't work.
But I also was like, okay, alsothis, like passive, aggressive,
gent, whatever you, what youcould call it gentle parenting.
There was also this like wait,but I also don't think that's

(01:03:02):
gonna work for me.
This like so I love thelanguage that you have and I'm
so fascinated by this framework.
I think I'm like sitting herelike this wasn't a podcast, this
was like you just gave us likea masterclass.
This was so, so good.
I'm curious like if there'sanything we missed that you feel
like it's really important.

Speaker 2 (01:03:21):
Well, one thing I want to say, just to acknowledge
, is, like you're you're areally good mom for noticing
that.
Really good mom for noticingthat.
Because that is the point, likethe, the, the crossroad that
people get to, where they'relike this is triggering me, and
if you don't have that level ofinsight, you're just triggered.

(01:03:42):
But if you have a moment whereyou're like this isn't good,
like I should probably.
So I just want to really, Ihope you, like I mean, I hope
you do your, you do your own,you obviously do your own stuff,
but I hope you realize, likethere's a lot of people who that
doesn't occur to them thatthere's another way.
So that's really awesome and Ihope that people listening to
know that there is another way.
And I guess one thing I wouldadd which we a little bit

(01:04:03):
touched on when we did our pausein the beginning but I want
people to view this not in a wayof I've been doing something
wrong, but as an opportunity,like there is this, like very
rich opportunity that we havethat actually is doing less is
going to be what helps your kid.

(01:04:23):
Like the idea that I want youto do less, I want you to talk
less, I want you to fix less andthose are the things that we're
finding that decrease anxietyand increase independence and
confidence in our kids and thatis very counterintuitive to a
lot of people.
So I want people to think aboutthat.

Speaker 1 (01:04:46):
Well, and what a gift to those women who are like I
couldn't possibly do more, likethey're exhausted because
they're doing the most.
They're doing, yeah, not onlythe physical labor in their
households, they're doing theemotional labor, and it's like
your kids aren't learning how todo their emotional labor
because you're doing it for them, right?
But I love what you said too,of you know, I think, a lot of

(01:05:08):
women, a lot of the like momguilt that people talk about,
they're not actually talkingabout mom guilt.
There's kind of this.
People are either saying it'seither the kid's fault or it's
the mom's fault.
And how I look at it, as Idon't, who cares whose fault it
is.
There's an opportunity here.
Right, there's a problem thatneeds solving and I'm the leader

(01:05:33):
here.
My kid's not the leader.
My kid's a kid.
I'm the parent, which meansthat I'm the leader.
I'm the one who makes the harddecisions and changes my
behavior because I'm the boss.
Right, my kid can't be the boss.
Like that's too much for them,even as they're older.
Like I need to be the boss ofme and my household so that they
learn how to be the boss ofthem, because if I'm not taking

(01:05:55):
leadership and accountability,essentially it's giving it to
them and that's too muchresponsibility for them.
Like that's.
I don't want my kids to holdthat responsibility over what we
are doing or not doing, whichgets harder, I will say as, like
you know, I'm in the teen yearsnow of parenting that's gotten
harder and harder for me.
I'm so, so grateful that when mykids were little, I chose the

(01:06:19):
hard way.
Yeah, like that, I chose to dothe hard thing of trying to like
there's that tension youmentioned.
Like there's that tension, thattug of war pull.
Yeah, I'm so glad that I waswilling to figure out the hard
way, to like meet that tensionand that emotional resistance,
to figure out what actuallybuilds health long term, because

(01:06:39):
I, I, you do reap the rewards.
I will say that, like I'vewitnessed I mean even just in
the like, the underlying of whatyou're saying'm like, oh no,
this works.
I know this because I'vewatched it.
I mean, I watched it work on meaccidentally.
Oops, oh my gosh, I'm soexcited to be like hey, hubs, I
have a podcast episode of mineyou need to listen to he's gonna

(01:07:03):
be like you're welcome.
I know it'll be great this hashas been such a great
conversation.

Speaker 2 (01:07:09):
Robin.

Speaker 1 (01:07:10):
I am just I'm grateful for the work you do in
the world and the way you do it,because I think you are going
to give so many parents and Ithink of like not only the
parents but also the kids ofjust it's really important,
powerful work, and I reallyappreciate what you do.
Thank you so much, thank you andif you guys, you guys for sure,

(01:07:31):
go follow her.
Her content's amazing, it'ssuper.
It's truly like you give reallyeducational content but in a
really potent, powerful way, andI'm sure working with you is
just incredible.
So thank you so much for beinghere.
Anything else, any last words?

Speaker 2 (01:07:47):
I know what I want to add.
Add because you just said thatis the membership that I
launched is available toeveryone.
It's pretty low cost and itcomes with live monthly office
hours.
So if you're like I don't needto go into therapy and I don't
necessarily want this likein-depth work, I want to say
that this is something thatanyone can access and I think

(01:08:08):
it's gonna be super helpful forpeople.

Speaker 1 (01:08:10):
And I I'm such a proponent of groups and stuff
like that when I tell you Ithink so many people go for like
, oh, I need the education, andit's like that's great and
sometimes you just need if youhad 15 minutes with a coach who
you could like work out what todo, how to say it, it can be so,
so powerful.
Yeah, awesome.

(01:08:30):
Thank you so much, robin.
Yeah, Thanks for joining me ontoday's episode of the
Motherhood Mentor Podcast.
Make sure you have subscribedbelow so that you see all of the
upcoming podcasts that arecoming soon.
I hope you take today's episodeand you take one aha moment, one
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(01:08:53):
life, to get your hands a littledirty, to get your skin in the
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(01:09:18):
what we're doing here.
So I hope you have an awesomeday, take really good care of
yourself and I'll see you nexttime.