They've Killed Over 20 wolves! Justin and Kate Small

Got questions? Send us a text!

Justin and Kate Small, two of the best predator hunters on the planet, share their expertise on wolf hunting tactics that can make you a more effective hunter.

• Kate's background includes nursing in Tanzania where she spent four months providing healthcare in poverty-stricken areas, including two months living with the Maasai tribe
• Justin grew up hunting out of necessity and credits his Boy Scout experience for teaching him essential outdoor skills
• The couple explains how wolves devastated game populations in Idaho and Oregon, with each wolf consuming approximately 20 big game animals annually
• Wolves reproduce annually with multiple females per pack breeding, allowing populations to grow up to 40% each year if unmanaged
• Winter is identified as the optimal wolf hunting season due to mating behaviors making wolves more territorial and vocal
• Justin and Kate emphasize the importance of learning wolf patterns and behavior through observation rather than immediate pursuit
• The couple shares dramatic success stories, including an instance where a wolf charged them from 2,000 yards away during breeding season
• In one area where they reduced a wolf pack from approximately 8 to 2 members, they witnessed the elk population grow from about 10-15 to 500 over five years
• Their Western Wolf Academy teaches hunters how to drastically reduce the learning curve for successful predator hunting

To learn more about predator hunting or sign up for their courses, follow Kate (@kate_small_outdoors) and Justin (@justin.small.outdoors) on Instagram or email [e-mail].

Subscribe and join the journey. New episodes dropping weekly.
#MountainDudePodcast #FaithGritGear #BackcountryLife #ChristianOutdoorsmen #HuntingPodcast
https://initialascent.com/

Want to watch the episode on YouTube:

Click here.

Instagram

Facebook

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
On today's episode of the Mountain Dude Podcast.
I am joined by Justin and KateSmall, two of the best predator
hunters on the planet.
You don't want to miss today'sepisode, as we talk about
tactics and how to make yourselfa better predator hunter.

Speaker 2 (00:34):
That will, in turn, translate to you by initial
ascent, where we share storiesof grit, determination and the
relentless pursuit of growth.
This is a space wherebackcountry hunting meets the
deeper lessons of life Successborn from struggle and the art
of carrying heavy loads morecomfortably, both physically and

(00:55):
metaphorically, through faithand perseverance.
Join us as we explore the pathsthat shape us, celebrate
victories, big and small, andfuel our journey with hope and
tenacity.
This is the Mountain DudePodcast, where we climb higher

(01:17):
together.

Speaker 4 (01:22):
Joe's a little too comfortable right now.
Actually he'll look over in aminute.
No pants.
Fully given up.
I do move a lot, he does.

Speaker 3 (01:32):
The entire show.
It's funny.
I cannot sit still.
Don't ever put me in a treestand.

Speaker 1 (01:38):
I think the best part , too, is when a light bulb
happens with Joe.
I'm starting to figure it outnow.
I've got to find him a window,because I can just see his ears
turning.
I've got to find a way to get apause in here so Joe can throw
out what's going on.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:58):
Yeah, we were telling a story to Chris, because when
you guys watch the podcast, mylegs will not stop moving and we
were telling him we were on aturkey hunt a couple years ago,
dennis and I and some other guys, and by routine, the morning
get up have coffee and I waslike you know, I want some
Ignite too.
So then we're sitting waitingfor turkeys and I'm just like

(02:21):
going crazy and I'm textingDennis time to go, time to go,
time to go.
And I'm just like going crazy,I'm texting Dennis Time to go,
time to go, time to go.

Speaker 4 (02:26):
Time to go.
I think it was on.
Was it on?
No, I was by myself.
Right before Dennis came I wassitting on a wallow on our elk
hunt last year and I'm like Iwas going to go hunt and then.
So I like drinking and igniteand had eaten breakfast and
everything and I'm just kind ofsitting there in the morning and
because I had slept, the windcomes down, like on this

(02:49):
particular section, hard, likeat night, and there's a cliff,
like to nothing, and I wassleeping on the cliff, so there
was bulls on the wallow allnight long.
And so I was just like sleeping,you know, in my sleeping bag on
the side of the thing was justlike sleeping, you know, uh, in
my sleeping bag on the side ofthe thing anyways.
So I wake up like a couplesmaller bulls had come in and I
was gonna go just kind of liketimber pound because the area

(03:10):
had burned and the the timberslots were just holding all the
elk during the day.
So I drink and ignite and like afew other things and all of a
sudden I hear this like maturebull bugle, like 200 yards away.
So I'm like sitting there andjust kind of like waiting to see
if he's gonna come down and Ididn't really want to go like
push into that area because Iknew I would never, never find

(03:30):
him and the wind wasn't gonna begreat if I headed over there.
And all of a sudden that ignitekicked in, oh boy.
And I was like, oh man, I lostit.
I think I had.
I think what I did wrong too isI had one of those Wilderness
Athlete ones, but I had drank inthe caffeine version and I
thought it was just the hydrateone, and then I drank in Ignite

(03:53):
because that doesn't normallyhappen to me and I was sitting
there and I was like dude.
If something comes in right now,I'm not going to be able to
control myself.

Speaker 3 (04:00):
You don't need a weapon, right.

Speaker 4 (04:05):
I felt like I could run a marathon, did you have?

Speaker 1 (04:07):
the uh like the skin tingle feel too, or was it just
the?

Speaker 4 (04:11):
gap.
It was just like the locked,like, like my muscles were like
you know, like they were justlike ready to go I think I'm
gonna have to stop doing thecaffeine on the hunts because
that's one of the things I'm soimpatient and just you know,
watching people that are reallygood hunters are super patient
and that's just like that is notme.

Speaker 2 (04:30):
Nothing in life am I patient with.

Speaker 3 (04:32):
So I'm going to have to tone down the caffeine.

Speaker 4 (04:36):
Take some melatonin on the regular First thing in
the morning, balance it out Allright.

Speaker 1 (04:42):
Well, welcome back to the Mountain Dude Podcast.
I'm Chris Young.
Joe Elliston's, here with me,needs touch, lord, that you may
just do it.
We love you, father, and wegive you all the praise in Jesus

(05:13):
name, amen.
Amen, justin and Kate Small,welcome to the Mountain Dude
podcast.

Speaker 5 (05:20):
Thanks for having us.

Speaker 1 (05:21):
I'm excited about this one I've been waiting for,
like this is, I've been kind ofgiddy about this one.
We're going to talk a lot aboutpredator hunting, wolf hunting
in particular.
We might get to some bears,we'll see if time allows.
But I'm excited to pick yourguys' brains because I genuinely

(05:42):
think you are two of the bestpredator owners on the planet
and I say that likewholeheartedly when I, when I
say it so no pressure just nostarting

Speaker 4 (05:52):
off.

Speaker 5 (05:52):
Pretty wrong there let's see where we can go get
ready to be underwhelmed I likeit.

Speaker 1 (05:58):
Well, let's get into both of your backstory a little
bit before we get things rolling.
Um, justin or kate, whicheverone you want to start, go ahead
you're right, ladies first umjust hunting wise background
just your whole backstory.
I don't know both of you superwell like outside of.
You know the small interactionswe have and I feel like the

(06:20):
audience is probably the sameway, so I want to get to know
both of you a little bit um.

Speaker 5 (06:24):
I was raised in Klamath Falls, oregon, southern
Oregon, the the good part.
Um grew up there, traveled fora while after high school and
went to college.
Went to nursing school andthat's what brought me to Idaho,
was my first nursing job inBoise and hunting-wise, I didn't

(06:47):
grow up hunting no one in myfamily even owned a gun.
And when I was 19, my mommarried my stepdad and I had
always loved the outdoors,honestly played sports, from the
time I was two through college,and once I didn't have that, I
needed something more and mystepdad took me hunting and that

(07:09):
it just it.
I was like oh, that's it.

Speaker 2 (07:12):
That's why yeah, yeah .

Speaker 5 (07:14):
So what I need?
So that kind of filled thatvoid of the competitive sports
side and, um, it was an awesomebonding experience for him and I
, and so that's what kicked itoff when I was 19.
And then moved to Boise fornursing, met Justin and then
just got deeper and deeper intoit from there.

Speaker 3 (07:35):
So, kate, there's a time though, right where didn't
you spend some time in Africa?

Speaker 5 (07:38):
Yeah, yeah.
So in college I traveled a lot.
I've been to about 35 differentcountries and, um, I just love
it, love being immersed indifferent cultures, and I was.
It was my summer year goinginto my senior year of nursing

(07:58):
school and I moved to Africa forfour months and volunteered
there as a nurse and I was injust a general um regional
hospital.
So it was very poverty strickenum for the locals and we had no
supplies, nothing.
I brought a suitcase ofsupplies and it was gone that

(08:19):
first day.
And so it was using shoelaces astourniquets and cardboard
splints and just anything wecould find.
And then I moved out for halfthat time with the Maasai tribe,
just in the middle of nowhere.
We had no running water, noelectricity and I just provided
basic health care and educationout there.

Speaker 2 (08:40):
Wow, how long did you do that.
I'd love to go back.
What's that?
How long did you do that?

Speaker 5 (08:43):
I was there for four months, wow, so it was fun.
I'd love to go back that was inTanzania, in Eastern Africa?
How long?

Speaker 3 (08:51):
did you live with the tribe?

Speaker 5 (08:53):
Um two months.

Speaker 3 (08:54):
That's amazing, that's that's so cool.

Speaker 1 (08:56):
I had no idea, I didn't know that.
Yeah, it was fun, justin.

Speaker 5 (08:59):
And then after that, after that, that's when you
moved to boise.
Yeah, then I had one more yearof nursing school and then I
moved to boise in 2014.

Speaker 1 (09:11):
Okay, justin, tell me a little bit about you, other
than the modeling career that'sright, I wish I wish mine was
that interesting.

Speaker 4 (09:18):
I grew up right here in eagle, born and raised, and,
uh, we hunted when I was a kid,like out of necessity.
We, just we.
We were super poor family.
There were six kids, four ofthem were girls, so the three
boys would go hunting, you know,and it was the first thing that
we saw that was legal, was wasdone you know, that's just how

(09:41):
it was we.
We didn't really hunt to uh forfor fun, I mean it was for fun
for the guys, but it was morelike we we needed that meat to
carry on through the year, grewup in boy scouts.
Um, you know kate makes fun ofme all the time but I look back
very fondly on all my boy scoutdays.
I'm like I learned so muchabout, you know, just the
outdoors and survival and stuffin that time period uh, all the

(10:05):
way up to an eagle scout, aneagle scout, yeah, and then, uh,
yeah, went to kind of likekatie went to college, played
football and then when I got outof it I had a company here in
boise and it was just, um, Imean I'd hunted my whole life
every, every season pretty much,except maybe when I was playing
college football a couple oftimes and where'd you play

(10:26):
football at?
I don't say that okay so yeahsorry, but I've learned that
lesson the hard way.
So then, uh, really reallykicked it off again hard,
probably a couple years before Imet katie and just just kind of

(10:47):
needed some sort of outlet orwhatever.
And uh, even before then I wasstill backpacking and stuff like
that, so I just kind oftransferred it into into hunting
again.
And then, uh, yeah, and then Imet katie and and, uh, we
started doing all sorts of otherhunts together, and then that
pretty much leads us to now.
She fell in love with me, andthen we got married and had a

(11:11):
couple of kids.

Speaker 1 (11:12):
How long have you two been married?

Speaker 4 (11:17):
We've been together like eight or nine years.
And married five.

Speaker 3 (11:22):
Something like that Awesome, so we've known, you
guys I'm trying to do.
We know you before you guys gotmarried.

Speaker 5 (11:28):
I yeah, I think we did so yeah I think we did yeah,
it wouldn't,

Speaker 2 (11:33):
have been?
Yeah, it would have been before.

Speaker 4 (11:35):
Yeah, man, that's crazy isn't it, no, it goes by
quick.

Speaker 3 (11:39):
So it's interesting I've had two people say to me
that you are a true mountain man, that when they've hunted with
you or spent time with you onthe mountain, you see things and
know things that just like,where did that come from?
And you equate that to the BoyScouts.
Do you equate that just to allthe years?
I mean, was there anybody inyour life that just was like
taught you that to be able toidentify and see those kinds of

(12:02):
things?

Speaker 4 (12:03):
I first of all.
It's a huge compliment.
I don't think anyone's eversaid that to my face and I would
probably disagree.
I know some serious mountainmen that would put me to shame,
but I would say there was acombination of really good and
really bad scout leaders growingup and both of them were really
good people, but some of themput me in situations that are

(12:25):
that are great now, but like atthe time I remember this guy
took us out and he gave us likeoh, this is your dinner for the
two of you, and we had to packit in and it was like one of
those rice, like things you know, and it's like two servings on
it like as a side serving rightand he's giving that
to two 12 year old boys as theirdinner and so like if you

(12:46):
didn't catch like a trout orlike I mean, like we were in a
serious, actual situation, likefrom day one, after 14 miles of
hiking or something you know, solike.
And then I had really goodscout leaders on the other end
that were like true mountain menand they knew anything and
everything.
Any plant that you came across.
I'm not like that, like I.

(13:07):
I recognize most of them, but Idon't know their names.
Like they knew their names.
They knew what you could usethem for, like medicinal, wise
and all you know.
Like that's, that's a truemountain man there and I'm not
there yet or anywhere close orprobably never will be.
But yeah, those guys knew a ton.
So I think it was a combinationof being in really bad

(13:27):
situations and having to learnand being with really good guys
that just absolutely knew whatthey were doing sounds like the
scouts made a huge impact on youyeah huge.

Speaker 3 (13:38):
Yeah, it did.

Speaker 1 (13:39):
That's awesome, that's great so you grew up
hunting, katie, you got into itlate, obviously.
When did you guys both startpredator hunting?
When did that transition happen?
Because I know a lot of huntersthat have hunted big game
forever that don't actually everpredator hunt.

Speaker 5 (13:55):
We started.

Speaker 4 (13:58):
I shot a bear before I met Kate and it was like it
would have probably been liketwo or three years before I met
Kate.
And it was like it was, itwould have probably been like
two or three years before I metKate.
And what happened is I bought arifle tag that year for elk
instead of an archery tag and itwas my first year going archery
hunting with a buddy, just tokind of like I'd never been out
during that season.
Okay, and uh, I bought a rifletag and it was super uneventful.

(14:23):
I was like like well, there'salways bears in there.
Like talking to my buddy, I waslike I'll just shoot a bear.
And I bought a bear tag andlike two days later, when we
were just hiking around, I waslike there's a bear like 80
yards away and pulled my rifleoff, boom like, and it was it
was like.

Speaker 2 (14:37):
I was like this is easy, you know, in the fall, and
I was like, oh, this is theeasiest thing.

Speaker 4 (14:42):
And it was not a big bear, it wasn't like wasn't
anything special.
But like a couple years afterthat, I think, like when I had
met Kate, she was like I'vealways wanted to kill a bear and
I was like, oh, that's easy,because I had had bear baits and
stuff and just been thatoverconfident hunter where I
like passed on a lot of bears.
You know like sitting there at20 yards with a medium bear that

(15:04):
I should have shot with a bow,you know, and yeah, would, would
just really liked watching themand stuff.
But I never, like I had never,pulled the trigger on one except
that one in the fall.

Speaker 1 (15:14):
Yeah, they're such cool animals yeah, they're so
cool.

Speaker 5 (15:17):
Well, yeah, I think we started predator hunting
together pretty early on, yeah,and bear was first and wolves
came right after.
But I like like the why andknowing the science behind
things, and once I startedlearning more about wolves,
that's what really kicked it off.
I I hunted in oregon before andthere they said we didn't have

(15:40):
wolves.
Well, over the years you Inoticed, well, we're not seeing
any more deer, but I'm seeingthese wolf tracks and you
couldn't do anything about inoregon.
And when I moved to idaho I waslike oh we can.
We can do something and we canhelp, and so I had seen the
devastation in oregon and movedhere I.

(16:00):
I wasn't lucky enough to seethe big game you guys had before
wolves were introduced, but Iheard about it from everyone,
and so that I was like you know,I want our kids to be able to
hunt, and in order to do that wehave to manage predators, and
that doesn't mean wipe them offthe landscape.

Speaker 1 (16:18):
It just means they have to be managed Absolutely
Right.
Talk to me a little bit aboutsome of that devastation that
you did see.

Speaker 5 (16:31):
Just no animals anymore.
You'd walk up on kills and justthey were spooked.
It was a lot, and that was, youknow, in a brief period of time
.
It seemed to happen just amatter of a few years in Oregon.
And so here I mean, we seedevastation every day.
We walk up on kills everysingle time we're out and the
wolves are just.
You know, we have prettyliberal laws when it comes to

(16:53):
wolf hunting Probably the bestwolf hunting laws in the lower
48, but still we can't keep upon them.

Speaker 3 (17:01):
Less than 1% success rate right yeah.

Speaker 5 (17:02):
For the average hunter, I think it's 20 big game
percent success rate.

Speaker 3 (17:04):
Yeah, yeah, for the average hunter I think it's 20
big game animals per wolf it isper year on average, a wolf will
eat 20 big game animals um that.

Speaker 5 (17:15):
They don't, and I don't think there's a way they
could count this but, thatdoesn't include surplus killings
, which are spontaneousabortions.
when the cows are stressedbecause they're being chased by
wolves, elk, they run out toexhaustion.
Or if you think of your typicaldog, if you take it to a farm,
it's never been around livestock, it's going to give chase to

(17:37):
those animals.
Wolves are the same way.
It's just there, it's innate tothem, it's what they're born
with.
They see something, run, theychase it, maim it.
They weren't hungry, they werejust curious and they walk away
and that animal later dies.
So that's really where I thinkthe majority of the kills

(17:59):
ungulate kills are coming from.
But yeah, they do, and they'rekillers.
And I, we love hunting wolvesbecause they're unlike any other
predator.
So you have your bears andmount lions that are reproducing
every other year, usually oneto sometimes on a rare occasion
for um offspring.

(18:20):
Wolves reproduce annually andthey're finding now which makes
sense because essentiallythey're dogs that they're
breeding more than one female inthe pack, so you're having
multiple litters per pack, andso the population just
skyrockets and left unmanaged,it'll grow up to 40% annually.
Holy smokes.

Speaker 3 (18:41):
Yeah, 40% Because they're not having one or two
pups.
They may have like six or seven, right?

Speaker 5 (18:46):
Right, right.
So and again with you know youcould have two pups or you could
have 13, and you just you knowit's.
It's vastly different.
I think in the 2023 to 2028wolf management plan by idaho
fish and game, on average itsays 4.6 pups per litter, but

(19:07):
that study was done back in 2015, so I don't think they have a
more recent study of that, sofairly outdated yeah, okay, um,
let's talk a little bit aboutsome of the misconceptions, too,
behind wool funding, because Ithink it's kind of been a hot
button topic.

Speaker 1 (19:21):
I do feel like it's going the right direction,
though, and I think that'sbecause of people like you guys
that are shedding light on thethings we can do to control the
population yeah, I think youknow, with wolves and bears too,
uh, they're cute and they'recuddly.

Speaker 5 (19:37):
And wolves, you know, people liken them to your
domestic dog and they don't getto see the devastation of, you
know, an elk being hamstringedand eaten from the tail, end up
and left to suffer for hours onend, which, you know, wolves
have to survive too.
But people don't see that sideof things and I don't know why

(20:01):
it's not like, oh, that poordeer got shot.
But it's always wolves and bears.
For some reason.
Deer got shot, but it's alwayswolves and bears, for some
reason.
Um and so, and I think theythink every hunter wants them
wiped off the landscape, and youknow, there's that argument.
Whether they were introduced orreintroduced, none of that
matters now, because they'rehere change it right, yeah, yeah

(20:23):
, but um, I think there are alot of misconceptions around.
Oh, you're just out slaughteringwolves and you know, I wish we
could do a little more damage.
That's just not the case.
They're so hard to hunt, theyhave a 250 square mile territory
and they can run.
Yeah, it's wild.

Speaker 3 (20:42):
It's huge.

Speaker 5 (20:43):
So once you find them , there's a good chance you
don't find them again the nextday, because they'll be.
I mean, they do run 20 to 30miles a day as well, if they're
not stuck in that area on a killor something.
Or, depending on the time ofyear, they'll hang out in
certain areas.
But yeah, and they're fast,they're smart, they've

(21:03):
outsmarted us quite a bit.

Speaker 1 (21:10):
And everybody else that's gone after them.
So let's talk a little bitabout that.
What are your guys's favoritetactics to locating?

Speaker 4 (21:15):
wolves, it's it just depends really on, like, the
time of the year.
If you're, if you're just likethe average hunter and let's say
you get to go out in the winter, I would say earlier in the
winter is better, when there's alittle less snow, but there
still is snow so you can findtracks.
Finding tracks is going to belike your best option and then
hopping on a map and trying todecide, like, where you think

(21:38):
they're going to go, based offwhere you found them and like
this process takes a lot of timeto be like like now, in general
, the packs that we hunt, I canbe like I can drive up on a
track and be like, yeah, I knowwhere they're going okay, like,
just because they are superpatternable, really interesting
okay they'll.
You know they have their areathat they like to run.

(21:58):
Now how far into that they'regoing to run.
Like they can run 20, 30 milesin a day.
They could.
If they wanted to, they couldrun 100.
So it's like you day.
They could.
If they wanted to, they couldrun a hundred.
So it's like you can't.
You know you can get to thenext spot.
You can spend all day drivingover to where you think they are
and there's their tracks rightacross the road, gone.
You know, like they.

(22:19):
You know it's more.
Just it's if anyone wants to begood at wolf hunting,
unfortunately, like you have tospend a lot of time learning
about certain packs.
You, if you spend time outthere at some point, I do think
if you spend enough time wolfhunting, you'll luck into one or
maybe two or something, whichare.

Speaker 5 (22:38):
Most wolf kills are unintentionally okay yeah,
you're out elk.

Speaker 4 (22:43):
Hunting a wolf runs by opportunity yeah, but
crossing into like that nextrealm of like getting it done
year after year after year, isyou really have to learn about
packs and, you know, learn aboutall these wolf habits and watch
them.
Like a lot of guys will see awolf at like you know 1500 yards

(23:04):
and be like I'm going to, I'mgoing to go, you know, and I'm
going to catch that wolf.
you know 1500 yards and be likeI'm gonna, I'm gonna go, you
know, and I'm gonna catch thatwolf, and by the time you get
there they're gone and you couldhave spent that time either
figuring out where they wentmaybe they'll bed down for you
or something or just watchingthem.
Like you can learn so much justwatching a wolf, like you can
with anything with deer or elkor anything else you can learn,
like you know the routes theytake across the mountain, how

(23:26):
they act as a pack, how they actwhen they're about to bed down
versus when they're, you know,on the move.
Like it's completely differentif you start seeing them like
all play around in one spot.
It's like they're probablygonna bed down pretty close to
there and hang out.
There's all these things thatyou can learn just watching them
.
So like if you go out and seethem, that's a huge win.
Like if you go out and findtracks, that that's a huge win.
Like if you go out and findtracks, that's a huge win.

(23:48):
And it doesn't ever feel likeit at the time.
It's like, oh, you know, if aguy from Boise goes out and
spends three days in centralIdaho somewhere and we found
tracks like all three days, soyou don't understand how big of
a win that is.
Man, like what can you?
What can you learn?
What direction were they headed?
Headed you know where?
Where did you see the tracks inthe three different locations?

(24:08):
What route did they take?
What time of the year was it?
What date?
I mean, I literally have wolvesthat run through the same spots
on the same day year after year, like within a day or two,
we've that's why trapped wolves,I think, one year, december 7th
, one year the sixth, one yearthe fifth, and so it was no.

Speaker 5 (24:28):
They're very patternable.

Speaker 3 (24:29):
That is amazing yeah, so you made a comment one time
on a video I was watching.
Um might have been last yearwhen you shot the wolf on the
mule deer hunt.
I think you got both mule deerand a wolf on that.
Yeah, you made a commentbecause when you saw him he
bedded down.
But you made a comment like itwas something like the time of

(24:50):
day or something was like Idon't think he's gonna bed
because it's such and such, butonce he put his head down I knew
he was staying yeah so what wasit?
what's the difference?
What was it there that you justthrew all this knowledge?

Speaker 4 (25:01):
I'm not like, uh, I I haven't been super lucky to.
Normally, when I've killedwolves, they they're, they're on
their feet and I'm able to cutthem off or something.
But I do have one buddy andhe's I don't know how many
wolves he's killed bedded, butit seems like he always finds
them bedded and is able to geton them, and one of the things
that he preaches is just likedeer, elk or anything Like,

(25:23):
sometimes they'll have multiplebeds throughout the morning you
know, and so normally when theyget to that first bed see, I
thought that wolf was going tolay down
for a minute and then go, and Ifigured maybe some of the other
wolves were there that I didn'tsee and it was going to go catch
up with them, okay, and so Iwas just kind of content to sit
there and watch this thing, aslong as I needed to, to see

(25:45):
where it went.
Now, where that wolf was it was.
If it stopped and it was behinda tree, like man, I couldn't
see it, you know, and I'd besitting there staring like I
know it's here, I know it's here, and like two, three minutes
would go by and start losingfaith and I'd all sit and start
walking and I'd be like spot,like the sun was going to hit it
at some point.

(26:08):
There's like a lot of thingsthat were going through my head,
like I just didn't in in myhead.
I didn't think that that wouldbe an all day bed for this wolf,
I just thought that it wasgoing to continue on.
But you know, if your dog laysdown on your floor and they're
just kind of like sitting there,you know, and they're maybe not
quite comfortable or whatever,and then you know, 10 minutes

(26:30):
goes by and they stand up andthey walk over to the carpet and
they lay down, they're therefor a second and they put their
head down.
You know.

Speaker 2 (26:36):
Like it's a huge difference, like oh he's going
to take a nap right now.

Speaker 4 (26:40):
And that's what he did.
Like he laid down and likecompletely stopped moving for
maybe like two minutes orsomething, and I was like, okay,
like this is, this is the time,this is as good as it's gonna
get, because even if he movesbeds at some point, like I could
watch him for however long hecan move and then he can move
again.
So this is my opportunity.
And he ended up staying there,for it probably took me an hour

(27:04):
to get to where he was and Ialmost killed myself getting
there, um, but it probably tookme an hour to get to where he
was.
And I almost killed myselfgetting there, um, but it
probably took me an hour to getto where he was, and then it was
at least another hour before Ishot him.
Once I put eyes on him again.

Speaker 1 (27:16):
Okay, so he stayed bedded for quite a while.

Speaker 4 (27:19):
Yeah, for a couple hours and I think he would have
been there.
I think he was getting closerto.
I don't think he was going toleave when he first kind of
stood up to stretch when I shothim, but I think he would
probably have left in like thenext hour to head somewhere else
.
But I don't know why he stoppedthere.
It just seemed like a weirdspot to me, so I can't pretend
like I know exactly what he wasdoing there, but I can tell you,

(27:43):
based off his mannerisms, thesecond that he laid down and
went to sleep.

Speaker 5 (27:46):
I was like this is the only opportunity I'm gonna
have to kill this wolf and thatwas also a lone wolf too, so
yeah and it's hard to say why itwas alone like it was a big
wolf.

Speaker 4 (27:57):
It was a big female and, uh, I didn't even look
until I was about to skin it.
I just assumed it was a male.

Speaker 3 (28:04):
When I walked.

Speaker 4 (28:05):
That was a female yeah, it was probably the
probably the second biggestfemale I've ever shot.

Speaker 5 (28:11):
She was huge.

Speaker 4 (28:11):
I mean, she was like a hundred pound dog, which for a
female is a giant, yeah and forfor a wolf is there's a wolf,
is a giant, yeah, you'll hearpeople say they're 200 pounds
and that just doesn't exist

Speaker 3 (28:23):
that's kind of like that's a dire wolf yeah, yeah,
okay, yeah.

Speaker 1 (28:30):
So is that common, then, to find a lone wolf, or
are you it?

Speaker 4 (28:33):
just depends, like on the time of the year, not that
time of the year maybe, but theyalso, you know, I think, um,
you know that time of the yearyou do have pups that are still
somewhat young, you know, andyou're probably going to see
them all pretty close to eachother with with the mom and
maybe the, the alpha.
But some of those other wolvesmight, they might kind of slip

(29:01):
away from the pack.
I mean, they, you know they'llgo away for a day or two and
come back and it's not like youknow they'll.
They're always out, likescouting, just like we are, and
finding the elk and you know, ortrying to figure out whatever.
I mean, they're still likethey're a pack animal.
But those, especially thoseones that are, um, that are kind

(29:22):
of younger in the pack orwhatever, are super, they're
super I don't know how do yousay it right, like they're they.
They like their own time, Ithink, too like they don't
they're not with the pack allthat.
You don't see them running likeall the time as a pack they
definitely do send.

Speaker 5 (29:38):
We call them scouts, but they're wolves out and
you'll see them split off indifferent directions to look for
a game, and we've seen a lonewolf chase down an elk by itself
yeah, really interesting okaywhat is that?

Speaker 1 (29:53):
that's super interesting to me.
It's cool that, uh, you guyshave obviously had enough time
studying these creatures, soit's I'm like soaking all this
in dennis always talks aboutthis.
We'll do a podcast or talk tosomebody and dennis is like I'm
gonna be a velvet mule deerhunter now.
I have literally never spentany time hunting wolves and I
think that's about to change.

Speaker 5 (30:10):
Listen to this.
I'm getting excited.
It's fun.

Speaker 4 (30:14):
It's probably one of the most frustrating things, but
the nice thing is, you can doit all year, you know right in
idaho, and it's also just like Idon't want to say like,
obviously, like killing a 200inch mule deer is challenging
yeah, 330 bull like all thosethings are challenging, but like
a the wolf thing is somethingthat has challenged me for years

(30:36):
and it just never really endslike it's just makes sense, it
doesn't matter how good I get atit, I fail all the time, like
all the time and it's just so.
It just keeps my interest morethan like a lot of things.
Do you know like I love to gobear hunting in the spring?
But, I, don't think about itall year the way I think about
wolves Interesting.

Speaker 3 (30:56):
So next week we've got Dan Whitmas coming in.
He's going to do a yeah Causehe's been to your guys' class so
I don't know if you guys, if hesent you guys the video when he
killed the wolf, have you guysseen it?

Speaker 5 (31:07):
I've seen it?

Speaker 3 (31:08):
Yeah, yeah, he showed us, yeah, the raw emotion that
was in that footage of himactually finding, I mean, he's,
this guy is like pinnacle typehunter, he's insane, yeah and um
.
For him to express that in thisvideo, I have to show it to you
, yeah, show it to you.

Speaker 4 (31:28):
Yeah, just raw excitement just in a canyon
where it actually all comestogether and it's beautiful,
absolutely well, and he's killedwolves in alaska too, but he
was like there's, he was likeit's nothing like, and killing a
wolf in idaho he's like it'snot even in the same realm, you
know yeah, what do you thinkthat difference is?
I think the pressure, like thepressure on the wolves in idaho,
like they're they're constantlydeal with humans, almost even
the ones in the frank church andstuff like they're constantly
deal with humans almost even theones in the.
Frank, church and stuff Likethey're, they're always dealing

(31:50):
with some sort of human impact.
He says pressure.

Speaker 5 (31:53):
If you shoot at a wolf and you miss, good luck
getting another shot at thatpack.

Speaker 4 (31:58):
They are so intelligent and that's you might
never see him spot again, yeah,so don't.

Speaker 5 (32:05):
If you see him at you , you know what you're not
capable of shooting.
Don't just start slinging lead.

Speaker 4 (32:10):
Play it smart and just remember that spot and try
to study that pack, because onceI could have shot they're
educated, they this year at like800 yards, yeah, probably once.
I, once I had gotten down, Icould see him just before I
finally dropped in the canyonand it was like 8, 26 or
something and like I'm prettycapable when it comes to

(32:32):
shooting and like, I reallythink I could have made that
shot, but I just looked as if Icross over there.
I'm gonna be at 400 yards, youknow and like, and there was no
question in my mind that, unlesssomething was absolutely wrong
with my gun or something, that Iwouldn't put a perfect shot on
at that point and I still madethe decision, like, I think, a
few years ago.
I would have tried to take thatshot at 800, but that's just

(32:54):
come from time and experience.
Patience Like he was talkingabout, maybe before we even
started or maybe we had startedlike I've become I don't know if
it's just getting into mytwilight years or something.

Speaker 5 (33:07):
I've just become a lot, yeah, maybe like the last
three years.

Speaker 4 (33:10):
I've just become way more patient like in elk hunting
and everything I don't.
It's just taken a lot of likeprobably messing up to get to
that point where I was now Ijust kind of take the extra
second and actually think aboutwhat I'm going to do rather than
rushing to running at an elk orsomething you know, but I think
that's a common thing thatcomes with experience and time

(33:33):
so that's a I always talk about.

Speaker 1 (33:34):
Just it takes time to learn those things, yeah, um,
but it's cool to see it kind ofall translating and what you
guys are doing.
If you could pick a seasonwinter, spring, fall what is it
that you're hunting?
Wolves?
Winter winter, the winter why?

Speaker 5 (33:51):
it's mating season, so more territorial, more vocal.
Um, if we howl them in a lotand if they hear you howl and
they're in the area, the themale and female are getting
pretty upset because it'sbreeding season.
They don't want another.
It's easier to find tracks.
I mean we upset because it'sbreeding season and they don't
want another.
It's easier to find tracks.

Speaker 4 (34:10):
I mean, we all know it's easier to glass stuff up in
the snow like if you have asnowy ridge that you're, that
you think the wolves might be onthat day, and they're on it.

Speaker 3 (34:18):
It's way easier to see them, like if it's snow
capped, then if it's just themiddle of summer or fall or
whatever it's way harder toglass them, then will they let
their guard down a little bittoo, like elk will, and so forth
, I think if you're in like theright areas at the right time of
the year, like if you, let'ssay in the spring, if you're,
you know, way up in the snowline, close to where they're

(34:40):
gonna den, or something, I think, like on our hunt this year.

Speaker 4 (34:44):
On our bear hunt I had the wolves howling and you
know it was two in the morning.
It was way up away fromanything, you know.
I just don't think that theywere expecting somebody some,
you know, idiot to be outside ofhis tent howling at two in the
morning, you know.
So I think like anything likethat, like if you can get way
away from the, from the roads orwhatever.

(35:06):
Whatever like more into theirterritory, you just sneak away
at that.
If it's negative 20 degreesoutside and you're, you know,
eight miles from the truck,they're gonna be a lot less.

Speaker 5 (35:16):
Oh, this is a person right then if it's you know the
middle of the summer and you'rehowling from a road or something
which can still happen, thatwith trapping as well a lot of
people trap will trap right offthe roads and we like to hike in
pretty far to set our trapsbecause they're not expecting
that that makes sense.

Speaker 4 (35:34):
So they are obviously really intelligent animals, and
usually you guys are almostusing that to your advantage to
get away from pressure frompeople yeah, I think you can use
like other trappers and otherhunters to your advantage, like,
especially if I mean it's hardlike being down here where you
guys are, but we know most thehunters and trappers where we
live and I kind of know theirstyle, you know.

(35:55):
So, yeah, same thing, like if,if you know all there, you have
to be like 10 feet off of a roador whatever with the trap, so
if all their traps are 10 feetoff the road, and mine's, like
you know, a half mile they'rejust not

Speaker 3 (36:08):
expecting it like yeah like they are with those
guys I was reading an article onthe intelligence of the wolves
and the author was talking aboutthink about this in your home
life and you kind of mentioned alittle bit this to this earlier
that when you go grab, likeyour leash or your collar for
your dog you're gonna take itfor a walk dog starts freaking
out, right, it just knows.

(36:29):
Or if you've got a lab andyou're a duck hunter, you grab
your shotgun, that dog knows.
If you grab your rifle, thedog's like, yeah, nothing right
that shotgun right, we're goinghunting, we're gonna go.
I mean, these animals are sointelligent, so smart, and
that's why you know, to yourpoint, kate, I mean it's, I
think we have.
And that's why, to your point,kate, I think we have.
What is it like?
Just over 1,000?

Speaker 5 (36:49):
Yeah, it's 1,150,.
I think was the 2023 count.
I don't know if 2024 has comeout yet.

Speaker 4 (36:54):
I'm not the biggest fan of the way they're counting
wolves now either, to be honest,yeah.

Speaker 3 (36:59):
Like one, skip those four, three, yeah Well, I mean
for the longest time they used560 game cameras in the entire
state of Idaho 560?

Speaker 4 (37:10):
And they don't count the Frank Church.

Speaker 3 (37:13):
Oh really.

Speaker 5 (37:13):
Or any wilderness area, because it's too difficult
for them to get back into, sothose are excluded.

Speaker 4 (37:20):
Wow.
And then now they do it likewhat is it?
It's like a DNA test.
They're turning it this year toa genetic-based model, so it's
based off DNA testing from thewolves that are checked in.

Speaker 5 (37:27):
It it's like a dna test.
They're turning it this year toa genetic based model, so it's
based off dna testing from thewolves that are checked in and
it's an estimate there's no waythat's accurate yeah, that's
interesting.

Speaker 3 (37:38):
Yeah, that is because I think you know the original
number, if I remember right, forlike the whole rockies was like
300, wasn't it yeah?

Speaker 5 (37:45):
that was the original goal and the.
The maximum carrying capacitywas 1500 for the northern rocky
mountain population 500 foridaho right 500 for idaho is the
maximum carrying capacity,meaning if we get over 500 we
have livestock conflict anddecrease in ungulate population.

(38:07):
And for years and years now Imean we were at in Idaho alone
for a while we were at what themaximum carrying capacity for
Idaho Wyoming?
Northern Utah northern Utah,eastern third of Oregon and
Washington and the entire stateof Montana, just in Idaho.

Speaker 4 (38:29):
Just in Idaho, of oregon and washington and the
entire state of montana just inidaho.
Just in idaho, and like whenyou were talking earlier about
the population declines, likethere was right there I mean, I
saw it, I don't know if youlived here, yet you grew up here
I didn't yeah, like I.
I mean, you probably did too.
I saw it firsthand like bad ohyeah like just absolutely.
When I was a kid, like you couldgo out and me and my dad and

(38:51):
brother would like, like we hada rifle and that was like our
hunting gear you know,everything else was just normal,
like normal boots, normal carheart pants and a shirt or
whatever, and we go, walk roadsand we would kill deer and elk
every single year, right?
No special binoculars, no, youknow, tripods, nothing, just

(39:11):
offhand shots differentabundance and abundance and we
would see elk and deer everysingle day.
And now it's like you have tosit in the most beautiful canyon
that should house however manydeer and elk, and you sit there
in glass all day and you see acouple of them right or?
You find a really good canyon.
You find like a decent amount,but I feel like that used to be
everywhere.

Speaker 5 (39:31):
Yeah, totally.
It's changed elk behavior aswell, so you're finding elk down
on private where they feel moresafe, and that's generational
because they're calving downthere and then it's causing the
ranchers tons of money becausethe elk are eating all their
crop and the wolves are killingcattle, and then we're losing
houndsmen because the wolves arekilling hounds right and then

(39:53):
that's going to explode ourother predator populations as
well so it must be, because theyjust, you know, 2025 now
there's no season, I meanthere's no start and stop season
on mountain, yeah, right, idaho.

Speaker 1 (40:04):
Yeah, exactly, so it all kind of happening.
Yeah.
Domino effect yeah, itabsolutely is, and I think.

Speaker 5 (40:10):
I don't think they anticipated that with the
introduction of wolves.
I wish colorado would havelearned right and looked at
idaho a little bit more beforethey introduced them.

Speaker 1 (40:19):
I'm sure they already had them but, just yeah, well,
and like you're talking aboutjustin, I was kind of really
getting into it as a kid duringthose days and I can remember as
a kid, going out with dad anddad been like, oh yeah, we used
to be able to sit here and shootdeer elk all the time, and now
it's like we're literallywalking up on wolf kills yeah,

(40:40):
yeah and I was young like Ididn't understand it in those
scenarios.
But like we were as a child likegrowing up hunting I was
watching elk behavior changelike I could one year we could
expect such and such, and thenyou were literally watching them
behave entirely different.
Yeah, not coming out into thein the light, like not being
timbered up all the time andit's like what is going on I

(41:03):
remember like it was such a likeI'll never forget it.

Speaker 4 (41:06):
I was sitting on the floor watching the news Like if
it was like lucky in my house ifI got to stay up and watch the
news and we had like twochannels and we were watching
the news is probably it was 1995, I think, 1994.
Like I was young and it was avideo of them releasing the
wolves and I remember like beinglike, oh, it's so cool or

(41:29):
whatever.
You know, blah, blah, blah.
I had no idea how much it wouldimpact my life at that point.
Right.

Speaker 3 (41:33):
But I remember my dad being like.

Speaker 4 (41:35):
Well, there's the end of the good old days in Idaho.

Speaker 2 (41:38):
And.

Speaker 4 (41:38):
I remember like word for word what he said, like, and
to this day, like I asked her,I have like zero memories from
yesterday like I can't rememberanything you know, but I
remember, like I remember whatmy dad was wearing, like it's
the weirdest thing, and it's soweird how it ended up impacting
me in such a huge way and at thetime I was just like, like

(42:00):
everyone else.
Oh, this is so cool, yeah no,it's crazy.

Speaker 1 (42:03):
I used to think the same thing as a kid and I can
remember.
I have a not that story, but asimilar story where we were
hunting elk and my uncle and Ihad located a really good bull.
What was a really good bull atthis point?
So he was probably like 240 tobe honest Stud yeah.
Giant as a kid and I grew uplike you did it.

(42:24):
You deer pushed pretty muchlike the kids.
The younger guys would push elkout into the open so the old
guys could shoot them from theridge.
Yeah and uh, we had locatedthese bulls.
Uh, and this bull that was.
That was a really good bull andwe went in the next day.
We gave it overnight, that waslast light.
And then we came in the nextday and there was a wolf sign
everywhere and just dead.

(42:46):
There was multiple dead cowsand dead calves and that was
like the initial where I waslike holy smokes, like this is
what you were talking about dad.

Speaker 4 (42:54):
Like, and especially at first, like when they were
new to the elk, they didn't know.
Like they didn't know what toreally do, you know because, I
mean you have to think, to themit was just a big coyote and
they didn't know how to react.

Speaker 5 (43:06):
It was devastating because they didn't know to be
that scared and I think andthat's what I assume we'll see
with colorado, is the out there,don't know and you'll see that
ungulate population severelyplummet and then it might start
to slowly come back a little bit.

Speaker 4 (43:22):
It depends what they do, hunting wise too, like, if
they allow hunting.

Speaker 1 (43:26):
So do you?
Do you both genuinely thinkhunters can make an impact on?

Speaker 5 (43:29):
it.
No, I think, short of severemeasures we won't get control of
the wolf population.
Especially, I think trapping,you have a slightly higher
success rate, not much, butslightly higher.
Um.
And then they, just, with thenew federal grizzly lawsuit, um,

(43:52):
they stopped trapping for mostof the state.
They shortened it, so it usedto be september through end of
march and now it's december 1sttill the end of february and so
I think we're going to see alarge impact.

Speaker 4 (44:06):
I think you need to see like a few things happen
like yes, I do think the generalpublic can take care of the
problem, but not without judgesand fishing games stepping in
the way and making it impossibleevery step of the way.
And I don't think it'sobviously like all fishing game
or anything like that, but thereshouldn't, like at this point
in, in my eyes at least, untilthe the situation's under

(44:29):
control.
Why do we have a trappingseason on wolves?

Speaker 2 (44:32):
makes no sense at all .

Speaker 4 (44:34):
You should be able to .
They need to have some sort ofgrant or something like that for
people to go into the frankchurch wilderness and trap these
wolves, because I mean, you'regonna have to go in there, stay
in a wall tank, you're gonnahave to do it old style like
there's just not a way to youknow they're.
you know, maybe specifically forwolves, they need to take away

(44:54):
the flight restriction so peoplecan fly in, check their traps
the same day or something, andfly out.
I mean, there's there's a lotof things that they have to do
to to change it if they want thepublic and it needs to become
more lucrative or or somesomething.
Because, like, right now youcan get reimbursed we all know
that but um, and I'm not sayingyou have to get paid but I can

(45:17):
tell you the amount ofreimbursements I've got is
nowhere close to the amount ofmoney that I've spent wolf
hunting Like I could.
I could turn in receipts forever Like I've lost my but
trying to be out there.

Speaker 5 (45:29):
You have to be out every three days to check out um
which is a good law, um, butit's just the gas and time.
So where we trap, it's a fullday that it takes us and yeah
it's two days a week.

Speaker 1 (45:44):
Yeah, yeah, now, at a local level, like the average
person that goes out and huntsthe same herd in the same unit,
you think that they can make animpact on a wolf population?

Speaker 4 (45:56):
I think I think they'd have to put in a lot of
time.
I think the problem is you justsee people.
It's like what's the averagesuccess rate for elk in Idaho?

Speaker 3 (46:09):
Like 10% maybe 5% to 10%.

Speaker 4 (46:13):
So wolves is like 0.003.
It's 0.0006%.
That was 2023.
I love all these statistics.

Speaker 1 (46:23):
I love it.
I nerd out on that stuff.
So she's just spitting them out.
I'm loving it.
Yeah, that's what I nerd out onthat stuff.

Speaker 4 (46:28):
So she's just spitting them out.
I'm loving it.
Yeah, that's what I hate tohave.

Speaker 1 (46:31):
I was expecting you to come with all the stats.

Speaker 4 (46:33):
to be honest, I have a lot of them, but she's much
more well-spoken.
I'm not smart.

Speaker 5 (46:39):
I like to know the reasons and why we're doing what
we do.

Speaker 4 (46:42):
I think, just when you see like like nobody wants
to do something and beunsuccessful all the time, I
think you need like a differenttype of person.
That that is just okay withthat.
I don't know, like, I think I'mjust a little retarded, cause
I'm totally okay with it, youknow.

Speaker 1 (46:59):
But I really do.

Speaker 4 (47:01):
It's tough, yeah, I mean, not everyone has the time.

Speaker 5 (47:04):
Most people just to get out for elk for a weekend.
That's a big deal.
And so I think most peopledon't have time.

Speaker 2 (47:15):
We've kind of set up our entire life, so we can have
time, and we, you know, move.

Speaker 5 (47:17):
We lived in Boise and we both left lucrative jobs to
move to a small town where we'dbe closer to public land.
Um, and so there's sacrifice inthat, but it is.
You can't blame somebody who'sworking Monday through Friday,
has a family, you know.

Speaker 1 (47:33):
Well, and something that I think I want to challenge
people to do in this scenariois we've talked about this
throughout this entire podcast.
Like, you guys know what you'redoing and a lot of that's come
from time and experience and youcan tell listening to some of
these stories.
So maybe it's something whereyou don't spend a week doing
this, but every year you taketwo days on a weekend throughout

(47:54):
the winter, cause you guys aretalking about, your favorite
time to do this is during thewinter.
That's a slow time.
None of us have a ton going on,we're not hunting anything else
Exactly it's a take one weekendevery winter two weekends.

Speaker 4 (48:05):
And there's always people that luck into them.

Speaker 1 (48:13):
So like that you know that it helps.

Speaker 4 (48:14):
Like it might not be the the solver of the problem,
it definitely might make you.
We're trying to do like we.
You know we met with shieldsyesterday.
We're gonna do a we're gonnamake our western wolf academy
thing like a little moreaccessible for people so we're
gonna do a class here at shieldsokay, talk to us a little bit
about that.
It's just gonna be like we'regonna do the western wolf
academy but we're gonna condenseit like into one day okay, just
kind of like an eight hour.

(48:35):
I don't want to say lecture,but like type of it.
Just you know, crash course,crash course on, you know, and
the nice thing is is, like youknow, katie kind of convinced me
to do this and I'm not like apublic social guy.
I'm just not.
I'm not a public speaker, I'mnone of those things, but, um,
it's, it's something that I do,know enough about that I can get

(48:57):
up and just kind of forsomebody.
You know we obviously chargemoney, for we don't make money
off of it.
You know, I work in Texas.
You guys know that, like I, youknow we don't but it.
But it's one of the reasonsthat we charge money for the
Wolf Academy and stuff like thatOne because we have to, because
we have overhead.
But the other part of it is thatwe don't charge a lot of money

(49:20):
and it's to show that people areserious.
So the people that are showingup aren't just there to steal
ideas, so they can go on somepodcast and talk about something
they know nothing about oranything like that.
It's these people that aregoing to show up and it's the
initiative to be like, yeah, I'mhere, I spent a couple hundred
bucks or whatever and I'm goingto listen to somebody that

(49:41):
actually knows more than me.
And then the thing is, when yougo to the Wolf Academy or this
new class that we're going tohave is you are literally I mean
, I've been doing this probably10 years now or pretty close to.
You're cutting your yourlearning time down by literally
that much.
If you go and learn, you arecutting your your learning time
down significantly by just goingin there listening and then

(50:03):
taking what you learned andapply it.
I guarantee you're still goingto make mistakes I still make
mistakes all the time but you'regoing to cut your learning
curve in half what took us years?

Speaker 5 (50:13):
is just condensed down and we just basically
regurgitate all our mistakes.

Speaker 4 (50:18):
Yeah, that's always a good thing yeah, there's a lot
of what like a lot of what Iteach is based off things that I
did wrong, that I was like heyif I had done this, that would
be one more wolf on the wall.

Speaker 5 (50:29):
And we cover hunting and trapping and I do encourage
people to get into trapping.
I think that's the mostbeneficial way of cutting down a
wolf population.
But back to whether hunters cantake care of them.
In one of the areas we'vetrapped out the pack.
We get down to about two everyyear on this pack and we've seen

(50:49):
more elk and more deer and bigevery year.

Speaker 4 (50:53):
So you're seeing, yeah, so I think it's like it
was crazy and probably like fiveyears of trapping in that area
and, like in this, in the latein the fall and early in the
spring they kind of congregatein this one drainage to move up
the drainage and when we firststarted doing it, there was
maybe what like 10 elk, yeah, 15elk, couple big horns, and then

(51:16):
it changed in this progressionto where there was, like like
last year I shit you not therewas probably 500 elk in this one
drainage like just a massiveamount of elk.
Yeah, 20 to 40 big horn at anytime.
Wow, deer everywhere you know.
And it was like this crazy justby knocking the pack down to

(51:37):
like two every year.
What's the average?

Speaker 3 (51:38):
pack size how many wolves, so same study in 2015,
it's six.

Speaker 5 (51:44):
6.4, I think, is the average pack size, I would say
in our area it's seven to eightgoing into the fall seven to
eight.

Speaker 4 (51:52):
You see some that have like 10, but like seven or
eight is pretty common.

Speaker 3 (51:55):
And then so that's over 200 animals if I'm doing
the math.
Yeah, that they're gonna kill.

Speaker 4 (52:00):
Yeah, yeah, a year, yeah, so if you think, about
that number that I threw out,there's maybe four or five
hundred elk.
I mean, if you think about that, it only takes a couple of
years to compile.

Speaker 1 (52:09):
What was that time?
Difference from the 10 to the500 like five years maybe like
at the end of the five yearslast year.

Speaker 4 (52:16):
It was crazy yeah, that's yeah huge impact and so
just in that area, it was justthis massive difference and I
don't know if there was moreanimals packing in there because
they knew they were safe.
Because it's weird, like inthis canyon, like I'm walking up
the canyon, I have a trappingbackpack on metals clanking
together.
Every animal within 100 milesknows those are coming and the

(52:39):
elk, like they'll be 80 yardsaway just looking at me and just
go back to feeding, like theyfeel no threat by me for some
reason when I'm in there.

Speaker 5 (52:47):
I think they just know yeah interesting but we can
tell when the wolves are nearby?
Yeah, because you don't seethem the elk are gone behavior
changes drastically and that'sanother big thing we look for is
ungulate behavior.
When we are out hunting thatwolf we saw chasing elk.
I had just turned to justin andsaid are?

(53:10):
You telling the real version ofthe story I just turned to
justin and said those elk lookspooky.
And I look back and a wolf ischasing an elk, oh wow do you
know what she said?

Speaker 4 (53:24):
why is that rock chasing those elk?

Speaker 5 (53:28):
In my head it looked like a rock.

Speaker 4 (53:31):
I was like that's a wolf.

Speaker 5 (53:33):
I said it and then I was like it's a wolf.

Speaker 1 (53:36):
That's hilarious.

Speaker 5 (53:37):
Thanks.

Speaker 1 (53:38):
Jeff, it's all good.
That's awesome.
I love it.
Well, while we're tellingstories, let's hear each of your
favorite wolf hunting story.

Speaker 5 (53:48):
I'd say the first one that's your favorite.

Speaker 1 (53:52):
Yeah, can you tell me the story?

Speaker 5 (53:53):
Yeah, one of our buddies in Montana is an
excellent wolf hunter and wewent up hunting with him and it
was that year where it was justfreezing.

Speaker 4 (54:06):
The polar plunge up here I think it was negative 44
with the wind chill um and therewas a ton of snow.

Speaker 5 (54:13):
And we got out and justin spotted wolves instantly.
Just we were go going therethinking we weren't gonna see
anything, but spotted theminstantly.
So we ran down the trail abouta quarter mile and they were on
this frozen lake and Justin wasset up on one side, I was set up

(54:34):
on the other and we weregetting ready.
We were watching these wolvescome down the timber and hit the
lake and just travel along umthe shore basically.
But it was far, it was.

Speaker 4 (54:46):
I mean, we didn't know, like none, Like none of
our range finders or electronicswould even work.
It was so cold.

Speaker 5 (54:51):
It was so cold and so .

Speaker 4 (54:56):
It was just guessing.

Speaker 5 (54:58):
We started howling and it was February, so mating
season and you could hear a wolfup on the mountain, just angry,
and Justin was on his kneeswith his rifle, um, next to him,
and he turned towards me andour buddy and said I think that
wolf's getting closer.

(55:19):
And our buddy said do not move.
And that wolf right then hadhit the ice and she was.

Speaker 4 (55:26):
She was barking.
All the other wolves werehowling and she was barking and
it was like like a dog behind afence like like this different
bark, you know, and I didn'tknow any, like I'd been wolf
hunting, but I didn't know, likeI'd never heard them like like
this was a huge learningexperience.
And I turned to him and said Iwas like I don't know anything
about wolf hunting.

(55:46):
I was like, but that wolfsounds pissed and looked over
the top of me, like I'm lookingover joe, and was like, don't
move, that wolf is sprinting atus.
And it was like 2 000 yardsaway, just like nothing you've
ever seen.
I mean, I didn't get to see it,but I was looking and kate's
like this and our buddy is likethis they're both like oh like,

(56:08):
looking at each other and stuff,and I'm and my back's turned
and we couldn't shoot because Iwould have shot justin.
He's in my way and our buddygoes when I say now grab your
rifle and aim to 200 to justin,and he says now and I turn to
grab my gun and turn and like,looking at the snow, I mean it

(56:30):
was all snow and then a wolf,like it was pretty obvious.
And I mean when I pulled up Ihad my scope fully zoomed in,
because before that they werefive, six, 700 yards away,
Didn't even really know, andthat my crosshairs came to right
here, like on its mouth, andthat thing dropped because it
caught its first movement andyou know, yep, a thousand, two

(56:53):
thousand yards of running andjust started growling and
drooling and I was like, and Ijust pulled the crosshairs down
and pulled the trigger and hitit right here.
Well, I like had the rangefinder in my shirt, you know,
and finally got it to work andpulled it out 45 yards, oh, wow
and I was like dude if you evertell me a wolf's at 200 yards

(57:13):
when it's at 45 yards and it'strying to eat me?

Speaker 3 (57:15):
but they're just because normally it's not like
that, you know, like smokes butthat was our first that was your
first year hooked.

Speaker 4 (57:21):
Yeah, I think my favorite one was with dennis.
I guess, yeah, then, kate shot.

Speaker 5 (57:26):
Well, yeah, an hour later I shot one.

Speaker 4 (57:29):
Right after she got frostbite On the finger.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (57:32):
I remember that.

Speaker 5 (57:32):
Yeah, I didn't want to shake my hand off the gun
because it was coming in.

Speaker 4 (57:36):
It came in like completely the opposite, like
super chill, took like 30minutes to come in, you know
yeah.
And then she, it was my fault,I was, was like aim for what?
I tell you, 100?
.

Speaker 5 (57:50):
I can't remember yeah .

Speaker 4 (57:51):
I said just hold crosshairs.
And she pulled the trigger andI mean you could see it on video
like just scrape the bottom ofthe wolf and it took off and I
started barking and Luke startedhowling and it stopped again
broadside and I told her aim for300.
And she just hit it right inthe heart.
I mean I've never seen moreblood come out of an animal.

Speaker 5 (58:12):
It still ran about 400 yards.

Speaker 4 (58:13):
Yeah, it ran like 400 yards, which is so tough To
their toughness.
Yeah, I mean you could see likewhen it was running blood just
pumping out both sides.
And the blood trail in the snowwas crazy.

Speaker 3 (58:25):
So you guys doubled up on your first run.
Yeah in.

Speaker 1 (58:29):
The snow was crazy, so you guys doubled up on your
first.

Speaker 5 (58:31):
Yeah, that's pretty awesome yeah that's super cool.

Speaker 1 (58:32):
Yeah, that's cool.
Tell us the uh dennis story meand dennis.

Speaker 4 (58:36):
Well, how long ago was it, dennis?
Three years ago, four years ago, five years ago?
Four years ago, he's motioning.
Four years ago we were, uh, inthe frank on a, on a bear hunt
and we didn't see much for bears, but the first night when we
were sleeping in our tent, thetrail was about 80 yards away

(58:57):
and we had the wind and youcould hear these wolves.
I don't know if we even saidanything to each other, but the
wolves are coming down the trailand they were howling there's.
You could tell maybe two, maybethree of them, I couldn't
really tell, but they werehowling back's.
You could tell maybe two, maybethree of them, I couldn't
really tell, but they werehowling back and forth and one
of them was, like you could tell, was the alpha, like just the
super.
The first time you hear ityou'll know.
And so they cross.

(59:19):
They crossed below us and wentdown and the next morning I was
kind of looking at my maps and Iwas like you know, if they're
gonna cross back up to wherethey came from, like this big
drainage, I'm assuming they'redented in there somewhere,
they're going to cross back upto where they came from, like
this big drainage.
I'm assuming they're dented inthere somewhere.
They're probably going to crossthrough the saddle.
And I had said that to Dennislike kind of nonchalantly, and
it was in the area we wereheaded.

(59:39):
So I was like why don't we justcamp like right near that
saddle, so we go up there thenext day on a death march and
get in there and set up theteepee and stuff, and you don't
see any bears, of course, and uh, it looked great, but we
weren't seeing anything.
And so we go to sleep and thenext morning wake up and you
know we're glassing and Dennisstarts making coffee and like

(01:00:05):
over the the jet boil, I just Icould have swore I heard a howl,
you know, and I was like Ithink I told Dennis I was like
shut that thing off or somethingyou know.
And he turned out.
I was like I heard a howl andhe was like, I think in his head
he's like you're crazy, youknow, like we didn't hear a howl
and like right before he turnedit back on, all of a sudden you

(01:00:26):
could hear it howl again, youknow, and they were coming
straight up the way that I hadassumed they would come.
And so we're sitting thereglass and it's like a like.
Yeah, at some point I yelled toDennis get my gun.
I don't remember that.

Speaker 5 (01:00:40):
I think I blacked out , but what it was was get my gun
, not get your rifle, Pleasehelp me get my gun.

Speaker 2 (01:00:49):
Get me my good things .

Speaker 4 (01:00:50):
I'm pretty sure he said he know what you meant so
we're glassing and we pick up awolf coming like straight the
direction that we thought wewould.
Well then I spotted a blackwolf, I think, if I remember
right, and dennis spotted a graywolf, and we thought we were

(01:01:10):
talking about the same wolf inthe same spot but it was
confusing because I was like,what are you talking?
that's not where it was, youknow.
And and anyways they, we justkind of get set up because I
know they're going to comethrough this, they're coming
right on track to go throughthis saddle and dennis was
trying to find a spot like onthe ground.
Um, because at the time when wefirst bombed, they were like

(01:01:34):
700 yards, you know, and I wastrying to find a spot and
finally gave up and there waslike this one log that went up
and broke off and went down, andso I, I put my, I put something
like a shirt or something on itand put my rifle right on it
and we were sitting there andall of a sudden I looked to my
left and they were just 700yards away, just as to how fast

(01:01:56):
they are.
And I look over and the onewolf that Dennis had saw this
massive gray alpha male is aboutto cross into the saddle.
He's like 120 yards away andI'm like Dennis, right here,
right here, and Dennis was likehe didn't have a setup or
anything and he was kind of likeI was shooting this way and he

(01:02:17):
was kind of like here and I waslike I think I said are you good
?
Or something like that.
And he was like yeah, and hejust kind of leaned over and I
howled really fast and the wolfjust stopped and looked at me
and I just drilled him.
And as I drilled him, I startedlooking for the other wolf and
the other wolf was justsprinting.
He must have been right theretoo, but I didn't see him the
black one and he startssprinting to the right and I

(01:02:41):
fired off a shot and figured hewas about 200, and I missed him.
I don't know where I hit, buthe kept running and I knew I
only had one round left in mygun.
So I jacked around and howledand this is another thing to
like learning their bodylanguage.
He started like like bouncing,kind of like a coyote does you
know where?

(01:03:01):
They like bounce and kind oflook back, and I knew he was
gonna stop.
But as soon as he went overthat ridge he was gone and he
stopped like right at the ridgeand at this point I didn't know
how far he was.
So I just kind of in my eyes, Ijust kind of like put it so
that I would still hit him if hewas.

Speaker 2 (01:03:18):
You know, I don't guess yeah, I did some kentucky
windage.

Speaker 4 (01:03:21):
I did some some math in my head and pulled the
trigger and he turned and jumpedand ran over the ridge and,
like I think, dennis, didn'thave faith in me I think dennis
didn't think I hit him and I waslike I don't know.
It sounded good, like that wasall I could think in my head.
It felt good like I was on himand we go over and I think we
made coffee real quick and we goover and can't forget this

(01:03:45):
alpha male like because we'veended up taking a couple alpha
males out of this pack and thisalpha male was like kate has
like a dang near boone andcrockett bear that she took.
It's like 19 and a half andthis wolf skull is like right
there yeah, he is massive wow,like he was he.
You know the pictures will neverbe good.

(01:04:06):
He had like a spring coat.
He had like no hair.
You know the pictures willnever be good.
He had like a spring coat.
He had like no hair.
You know that was the biggestdog I think I'll ever shoot in
my life Like.
I bet he was close to like thatone 15 pound and I don't think
he had anything in his stomach.
He was just a massive, massivewolf.
And the other one was like a.
He was like a year old but hewas dead.

Speaker 1 (01:04:25):
Yeah, we went over and walked walked like.

Speaker 4 (01:04:27):
I walked like right to where he was and I was like,
oh, there's a little blood righthere.
And I like looked up and thewolf was like two steps from
where I had last seen him deadand I was like, oh, and there's
that one too beautiful and thatwas probably my favorite one,
just because dennis was thereand then you guys know how the
rest.

Speaker 5 (01:04:43):
But that I mean that was lucky, because we've lost a
lot of wolves that we know aredead and they just hide.
Really, yeah, really well, youthink it's hard to find a bear.

Speaker 4 (01:04:54):
I mean they soak it up even more the wolves well,
they don't really soak it upmore, it's just they're smaller
and like they can ball up andlike yeah, so if they roll
underneath a log or somethingand there's some bushes right
there, man like you can losethem so easy.
Like we found a couple that Iwas like looking for for hours
and like right at the last blood, and I'm like he's right here,

(01:05:17):
like wow, like they can just getinto this little teeny thing
even though they're big animalslike but they're tough, they are
tough.

Speaker 1 (01:05:27):
Yeah, that's awesome now, that gets me excited I
gotta make it out this wintersounds like this winner's got a
book.

Speaker 3 (01:05:33):
Yeah, I think we got plans now, so when are you guys
going to do this deal at shields?
Do you guys know yet the dates?

Speaker 5 (01:05:37):
we're gonna do it tentatively march 7th and we'll
advertise a little more 26, yeah, okay but yeah, just a
condensed version of terrain tohunt them in, how to hunt them
different times a year, to huntthem their behaviors, where they
are during different times man.

Speaker 1 (01:05:57):
Is there a way to sign up now, or is that not yet
available?

Speaker 5 (01:06:02):
just message me, and that's usually how it goes
pre-list by messaging katie.

Speaker 1 (01:06:08):
There you go, and while we're on that, before we
get to a little rapid fire,where can listeners find both of
you?

Speaker 5 (01:06:14):
um.
You can find me on instagram atkate underscore small
underscore outdoors and I'mjustin dot small dot outdoors,
perfect and youtube.
I think our channel is SmallOutdoors.
Small Outdoors, yeah, I don'tknow.
I don't know, you've got somegood films on there.

Speaker 1 (01:06:33):
Yes, we'll put a link in that.
Well, chase, definitely not me,or definitely not Joe.
Yeah, exactly, chase.
We'll put a link to the YouTubechannel in the description.
Check out some of the recentbear hunt videos, because those
have turned out sweet Joe.

Speaker 3 (01:06:50):
So we like to do a little rapid fire.
We make it easy, though.
We give you the answers.

Speaker 2 (01:06:54):
You just got to pick one.

Speaker 3 (01:06:55):
So, Justin, I'll start with you and then we'll go
back and forth here.
So I'll ask you a question.
Just answer which one.
It would be Spring bear or fallbear hunt.
Spring bear, so, Kate, elk meator bear meat?
Elk country or rock and rollcountry.
Coffee or energy drink.
Coffee fixed blade orreplaceable blade, fixed blade.

(01:07:19):
Last but not least, podcast orradio podcast okay there we have
it now that okay.

Speaker 1 (01:07:26):
Uh, western wolf academy where can listeners sign
up?

Speaker 5 (01:07:29):
um message me on instagram or email me at kate
small outdoors at gmailcom.

Speaker 1 (01:07:36):
perfect, well, thank you guys for coming on the
mountain dude podcast.

Speaker 3 (01:07:40):
Yeah thanks for having thanks having you guys.

Speaker 1 (01:07:41):
Appreciate you coming in, remember to hit the uh like
and subscribe button and uh,drop some comments and we'll try
to pin these two down to answerany wolf questions you guys got
yeah thank you guys until nexttime, keep your eyes on the
summit.

Speaker 2 (01:08:00):
This is the mountain dude podcast signing off.