December 9, 2025 • 21 mins
In this episode of the Multi-Family Real Estate Experiment podcast, host Hutch interviews Kevin Bupp, CEO of Sunrise Capital Investors, about his journey in real estate. After building and losing a $75 million portfolio in the 2008 crash, Kevin rebuilt his empire stronger than ever with over $500 million in transactions. He discusses his strategies for investing in mobile home parks and parking lots, emphasizing recession resilience, cash flow, and the importance of sticking to the fundamentals. Kevin shares his experiences, lessons learned, and insights on the real estate market, making a compelling case for contrarian investing in niche asset classes.
00:00 Introduction and Guest Overview
00:31 Kevin Bupp's Real Estate Journey
02:44 Lessons from the 2008 Crash
06:06 The Appeal of Mobile Home Parks
09:19 Mobile Home Park Business Strategies
15:42 Exploring Parking Lot Investments
18:55 The Psychology of Wealth and Cash Flow
20:35 Conclusion and Contact Information
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Email me at:
hutch@hsquaredcapital.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker (00:00):
Wah Gwan all you multifamily enthusiast.
Welcome to another episode ofthe Multi-Family Real Estate
Experiment podcast, where webreak down the mindset,
mechanics and marketintelligence needed to help you
own more of America.
Now today's guest, built a realestate empire.
Lost it in 2008 crash and thenrebuild it stronger than ever.
(00:21):
And listen, some of you meetroadblocks, in your life and
think it's the end of the world.
But most of you understand thatis a setup for the getup.
We're gonna talk to Kevin Bupptoday.
Kevin Bupp is the CEO of SunriseCapital Investors.
He has over$500 million in realestate in transaction.
He hosts a top rated realestate, investing cashflow
(00:45):
podcasts.
He's also the author of theCashflow Investor and one of the
country's most respected voicein the mobile home parking lots.
It also, which is a unique nichein a commercial real estate
asset.
Its Insight has been featured,everywhere in the BiggerPockets,
the International InvestmentConference, and today he's here
(01:07):
to teach us what most mainstreaminvestors completely overlook.
Kevin, welcome to the Deal Lab,brother.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
Hey Hutch, thanks for having me, I'm excited to be
here.
Speaker (01:18):
Yes, sir.
Brother, do you have a favoritereal estate quote or mantra that
drive you?
Let's talk about that before weget into the tactical stuff.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Yeah, that's a good question.
I'll share two with you.
I've got two young sons, they're9 and 12.
I say this to them all the time.
This is applicable to any partof your life, whether it be real
estate, investing, sports,business, marriage, get
comfortable with beinguncomfortable.
Throughout your life, you needto get very comfortable with
getting outside of your comfortzone and being uncomfortable.
So that's the only place we findgrowth as individuals.
(01:47):
And then the other one is, I'm abig fan of Warren Buffett.
one of, Warren Buffett's famousquotes is, rule number one,
never lose money.
Rule number two, never forgetrule number one.
So we live by that at SunriseCapital.
Speaker (01:57):
Yeah, that is awesome, man.
Look.
I've been in the Marine Corpsfor a while now, and some of the
best relationships that I'vemade is being in, really
uncomfortable situation andenvironment with limited
resources, that we consider,austere environment, right?
You get to see what drives you,what fuels you.
You get to see what you do, whyyou do it.
(02:18):
And you get to see the peoplearound you, what makes them
tick.
You get to see their growth aswell.
You also get to see the oneswho, who break.
so you get to see the ones whoare dependable.
And you also get to realize thatyou may or may not be a
dependable, person as well.
You know what I mean?
So the discomfort really drivesyou to a higher level of growth.
(02:39):
In multiple situations.
Absolutely.
Yes sir.
Now, Kevin, I agree
Speaker 2 (02:42):
wholeheartedly.
Speaker (02:43):
Yes sir.
I appreciate it.
So you built a hundred milliondollar plus portfolio, and then
in 2008, like a lot of peoplehave seen a multiple market
cycle, lost everything.
Most people never recover fromthat.
Can you walk us through,brother, what you did, what did
losing your portfolio teach youabout leverage risk, true
fundamentals, of wealth.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
Yeah, it's a great question.
it was a very challenging time.
had found some, significantsuccess in my early to late
twenties, leading up to 0 8, Iabout a, nearly a hundred
million dollars.
About$75 million real estateportfolio of, single family
homes and multifamilyproperties, in southwest
Florida.
The first big lesson I took awayfrom that is, a large majority
of my portfolio were singlefamily properties.
(03:26):
The operational side of that, weowned properties spread amongst
five different counties.
It was a very inefficientprocess.
It was very expensive to managethem, technology.
Exist today.
That didn't exist back then.
That creates a lot ofefficiencies that weren't really
in place back then.
And so while I had low leveragepoints on everything, I wasn't
making a lot of cash flow.
I speak about cash flow todaybecause really it's our number
one principle.
But, if I'm being brutal honestwith myself, my portfolio was
(03:49):
more built around appreciation.
That kind of, rose with all thetides in Florida, Florida's a
very cyclical market.
It goes to really high peaks andit goes to lows.
and that's typical of a lot ofthe coastal markets.
while I made some cash flow, itwasn't durable enough to
withstand, negative impacts thatoccurred, during that period of
time.
A lot of folks say rents nevergo down.
That was not the case.
there were, periods of timewhere we had, oversupply of
(04:11):
homes here in Florida, and sothat, that impacted our rental
portfolio.
In addition to that, when theystopped building new homes, a
lot of the jobs went away.
There weren't as many, thepopulation, slightly decreased
in Florida.
Folks had to move other placesto find work.
And so we had challenges,maintaining occupancy.
And so once you start stackingall the challenges, maintaining
occupancy, lowering our rents,offering concessions, we had
(04:33):
challenges being our debtservice.
And in addition to that, the,values of these properties, even
though we had low leveragepoints, we had, built in equity,
a lot of them within a period ofa year.
We're upside down in value, evenif our leverage point was in the
60% range, so we were prettyconservative generally speaking.
But, you know, we lost nearly 50or 60% of the value in a period
of a year.
that value has since come back,but we didn't have the
(04:55):
durability to weather thatstorm, We look at things very
differently today.
We've got to, we put a lot ofstress test in place on our
properties.
we're still very conservativewith leverage, however, we look
at worst case scenarios.
we underwrite to various cliffswithin the financial model to
ensure that any event of a worstcase scenario, can we still make
debt service?
can we weather the storm andcarry it through to the other
(05:15):
side?
And so, that's probably the bigdifference and one of the
biggest lessons I took away fromthat period and how we've,
restructured our portfoliotoday.
We just had a challenging coupleof years, with interest rates
going up.
A lot of folks are in trouble.
a lot of folks had short-termdebt in place.
We have not missed a quarterlydistribution.
We're proud to say that we'veliterally made 34 quarterly
distributions in a row.
We've gone right through COVIDgoing right through the last
(05:36):
couple of years with interestrate increases.
We don't have adjustable ratedebt.
We've got long-term debt in ourportfolio and our leverage
points are low.
Even if we, lose occupancy inany of our assets, has not
impacted our ability to paydistributions and debt service.
It's a very durable portfolioversus what looked good.
On the outside of, my oldportfolio.
When you really got into it gotinto the nitty gritty, you found
(05:57):
that there was lots of weaklinks, on the chain.
And so, just lots of lessonslearned.
But those are some of the bigones,
Speaker (06:02):
We are as strong as the weakest link in the chain.
That's right.
I wanna talk about Mobile HomePark because you probably deal
with this question quite a bit,and I think it comes from a
place of lack of understanding.
We drive past these things and,don't really quite understand,
mobile home parks.
You have doubled down on mobilehome parks, when most
(06:24):
syndicators chase apartments, Iwould like for you to help our
listeners understand, what makesMobile Home Park one of the most
recession resilient high demand,with limited supply assets in
the commercial real estatespace.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
Yeah, that's a great question.
You know, funny enough, I knowyou're based in Hawaii.
Hawaii is the one state thatdoes not have any mobile home
parks they don't exist there.
Probably the cost oftransporting the mobile homes,
across the ocean and there's nomanufacturers there for mobile
homes.
I've always been a contrarianinvestor.
I always try to, you know,where's the herd going?
What's on the opposing side?
Is there opportunity there?
Right.
And so, you know, mobile homeparks now are pretty popular in
(07:00):
the mainstream.
Lots of institutional money isin the space.
That wasn't the case.
13 years ago when we startedbuying them.
It was a very, unrealized niche.
If you knew, you knew, but ifyou didn't, you didn't.
It was like a little, good oldboys club.
Lots of mom and pop type owners,not big institutional groups.
Once we identified, a potentialopportunity there, we bought a
property I didn't know I, I'dknown Apartment Complex has
(07:21):
owned, portfolios of singlefamily homes, another type of
commercial real estate.
I didn't know what I didn'tknow, and there wasn't a lot of
information out there.
What I did know is that theaffordable housing crisis, was
real 13 years ago when westarted buying mobile home
parks.
It's even more real today.
Mobile Home parks, offer, what Ifeel is the best unsubsidized
housing option in any marketacross the country.
You can take any of our mobilehome parks in any city that we
(07:43):
own across the country, and Ican promise you that it's.
A better quality than whatyou're gonna get for the same
price point in an apartmentcomplex.
More than likely it's half theprice of the same size stick
build home.
Our competitors are apartmentcomplexes.
we offer the American dream tothose that would otherwise be
renting an apartment, but for amuch less price.
They can live the American dreamin a brand new mobile home than
what they might be paying tolive in a, B minus or C plus
(08:05):
class apartment complex.
It's a Very compelling picturethat we can paint to, provide, a
beautiful form of housing at avery affordable price.
And so, I bought that firstproperty, 13 years ago.
Didn't know what I didn't know.
Bought it, stabilized it, did alot of improvements and it
filled up very quickly.
We made something very nice.
It was in a good part of town.
It was in.
The good school district.
So folks wanted to live there,wanted to raise their kids
(08:25):
there, right?
They wanna send their kids tothe good schools or good,
hardworking blue collar folks.
but they need an affordableplace to, to reside and raise
their family, and that's what weprovide.
that hasn't changed.
That's still the same storylinetoday.
But the unique thing aboutmobile home parks is that it's
one of two asset classes thathas a diminishing supply,
meaning that.
There's more mobile homecommunities that get torn down
(08:47):
or redeveloped every year.
Meaning that there's a shrinkingsupply than new supply that
comes on online.
And so we've got this uniqueasset class to where if we buy
in a great market.
And a great part of town, we canfix it up, do great things with
it.
We don't have to worry about anew competitor being built right
down the road.
It's a very isolated, assetclass and also has a,
significant barrier to entry.
(09:07):
Whereas, in self-storage orapartments you've always got the
concern of potential oversupply,someone else coming in, building
too many units, and then thatultimately impacts, what you
might be able to charge or howfast you might be able to lease
up,
Speaker (09:18):
Yeah.
That is interesting, man.
So there's a couple differentways to my understanding that
we, can, run a Mobile home parkbusiness, right.
I'd like to dive more, into yourbusiness strategy as far as the,
as your practitioner.
Right.
Where the residents, they canown the mobile home and just
rent a lot from you or youyourself can own the mobile home
and the lot and the maintenancethat comes along with it.
(09:39):
Which one of those you see to bemore successful or do you do a
practitioner of both?
Multiple,
Speaker 2 (09:44):
We're a practitioner of both, but only out of
necessity.
the ideal business model is wedon't own any of the homes.
We just own the property, theinfrastructure, and we rent the
lot to the residents, and theyown the home when they own the
home, they're responsible like ahomeowner would be.
They're responsible for if theroof leaks, the plumbing leaks,
if the AC breaks, right?
They're calling the vendors.
They're not relying uponlandlord, to fix those items,
(10:04):
right?
And so it's, the expense load ismuch lower when we don't own
that unit.
When the resident owns thathome, it's very akin to that of
a stick boat home.
To them they're living in asubdivision.
what that means is we've got asignificantly lower amount of
turnover of resident base,whereas with renters, they might
be moving every 12, 18, 24months.
We've got residents that havelived in some of our communities
for four decades, even.
(10:25):
There's a couple that have livedthere for five decades, and
there's multiple, you know,components of their, of multiple
generations living in that samecommunity as well.
So you've got entire families,2, 3, 4 generations of families
living in some of thesecommunities.
And so they don't leave.
They stay, they're stickyresident base.
And so we like that, they've gota pride of ownership.
There's a sense of communitythat just doesn't necessarily
exist when you have.
Renters, in the units.
And so again, in a perfectworld, we wouldn't own any.
(10:48):
However, there's a number ofcommunities that we buy, where
the prior ownership might have,had some rental units in there.
Sometimes it might be fiveunits, sometimes it might be 50.
In our entire portfolio today,we own about 3,500 units, 3,500
mobile home spaces.
Of those 3,500, we probably haveabout 400 of the actual homes
that we own inside ourportfolio.
Some of our communities, we havezero that we own, and others we
(11:10):
might have 50 or 60 or 70 thatwe own.
Right.
And it just varies community tocommunity.
But ideally we would own zero.
Speaker (11:17):
Okay.
So if you acquire a mobile homepark where the current owner
owns.
The home and the land.
do you have a process to get thecurrent resident to take over
the ownership of the home?
Yes.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
Yeah, that's a great question.
typically, if there's a renterin there, normally what we'll do
is, give them the opportunity,try to give them a compelling
reason, of, us financing thehome form or provi, you know,
helping them get financing andshowing'em that it, it's more
than likely cheaper for them toactually own that home.
However, some folks.
Should be renters, right?
they may don't have an interestin being a homeowner.
They don't have, an interest inbeing responsible for items that
(11:49):
need repaired or investing backin that home.
And so it's very difficult toconvert someone that, is a
lifelong renter and desires tobe into a homeowner.
And so we always attempt toconvert.
If they don't have an interestin buying, normally what we do
is if they're a good payingtenant and a good, citizen of
our community, then we just letthem rent until the time comes
where they no longer choose torent.
Once they move outta that unit,we do a renovation and then we
(12:11):
put it back on the market forsale.
That's normally the protocolthat we go through.
we've got, about 10% of ourportfolios rentals today.
We're always Going through thatconversion process.
However, we're always buying newcommunities and we start
wheeling that number down andthen we'll go buy, like we're
buying a, we close on acommunity tomorrow morning.
It's a six park portfolio.
And inside that six parkportfolio, there's about 500,
500 sites in total.
(12:33):
And of those 500 sites, there's70 units that are owned by the
various communities.
And so, you know, we'll have tostart working towards chipping
that 70 number down, over thecoming years.
Speaker (12:42):
It's always con,
Speaker 2 (12:43):
continual progress.
Speaker (12:44):
Yeah.
That's awesome, man.
So I'm trying to visualize this,right?
And if I was to buy an apartmentcomplex and now sell that off to
the resident, that creates somecomplexity as far as cash flow
value, so on and so forth,right?
Speaker 2 (12:57):
selling the land though, we're we keep the land,
correct?
Yes.
We're just selling the home.
Speaker (13:00):
So, as you sell those homes To the residents, What is
the financial impact on thevaluation of those parks?
Speaker 2 (13:08):
It's beneficial.
it actually increases the value.
You have to bifurcate thevaluation.
When we look at a park, we'relooking at the capitalized
income derived from the lotsthemselves.
Just like you would underwritean apartment complex.
The durable income we want is onthe lot.
Income itself, not on the actualincome from the home if it's a
rental.
These homes are personalproperty.
Classified as what's calledchattel.
And so they're no different orno different classification than
(13:30):
like a vehicle, a car, a truck.
So, they tend to depreciate invalue because they're personal
property.
They're not attached to realproperty.
When we buy a new mobile homepark, that has units owned by
the community, we evaluate itseparately.
We capitalize the income on thepark, and come up with a
valuation in that manner.
And then we just put a shellvalue on the home itself.
Based on how old these homesare, you know, the condition, we
(13:51):
might say, Hey, they're worth15,000, 20,000,$30,000 a pop.
and so it, what happens is, whenwe can sell that home off the
end user.
The desirability goes up quite abit because most other buyers in
the marketplace, especiallyinstitutional buyers, don't want
to own any homes.
They have no interest in owninghomes.
They don't want, they don'twanna be in the rental business
'cause they know that it's justa lot more turnover.
(14:14):
the income's not as sticky.
Typically what we'll see is caprate compression.
If we can get rid of.
All the park owned homes over aperiod of time and then turn
around and sell that property.
Whereas if it had park ownedhomes originally, it might have,
maybe it sold for six cap.
But if we can get rid of allthose park owned homes and sell
it as a fully stabilizedproperty with no rental units it
might get a 25 basis point,maybe even a 50 basis point
premium on cap rate.
(14:35):
So we get some cap ratecompression because now we're
selling an asset that.
it's got lower maintenancerequirements.
We don't have to have as much,involvement from a community
manager to oversee it.
We don't have to havemaintenance guys on staff.
It's really simple and there'svery little turnover.
We're not involved in leasinghomes.
We're not involved in sellinghomes.
It's a very simple businessmodel.
Once we can get to that point.
Speaker (14:54):
No, that is pretty cool, man.
I've interviewed a costsegregation guy, he was talking
about the type of propertiesthat, that has the highest level
of, bonus depreciation in mobilehome park.
Yeah.
Tends to be one of them.
Which makes sense, right?
Because you pay this high dollarvalue for, land and a small
amount of improvement, right?
That's right.
The cross segregation mostly ison the land improvements.
(15:15):
Then you get to, that's right.
You get to have a huge taxbenefit for those passive
investors who are investing,for, tax benefits.
So yeah, I like that concept aswell, man.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
About 70 to 75 cents, for every dollar of purchase
price that we get.
It's significant.
Yeah, it's a lot.
I think car washes are the onlyasset that actually have a
greater bonus depreciationopportunity because of all the
equipment, they have with them.
But, mobile home parks, I thinkare second line.
Speaker (15:40):
I got you for about another seven minutes.
Before we get into the focusrun, I wanna talk a little bit
about parking lots.
I live here in Hawaii andparking downtown is probably one
of the most lucrative thing downthere, man, because they're so
scarce.
You go into, in some majorcities, you go to like New York,
San Diego, different places,Vegas, right?
Parking structure, it becomes ascarcity.
(16:01):
Right.
Can you tell us a little bitabout that business model and
why?
Speaker 2 (16:04):
You hit one of the important points.
it's scarce.
In fact, it's the second assetclass as a diminishing supply.
if you've lived in a certaincity for.
A couple decades, and you canthink back to what maybe the
downtown area looked like 30years ago.
More than likely, there wasquite a bit more surface lots
than today.
They've been redeveloped intocondos mixed use properties
apartment buildings or officebuildings, land is scarce,
especially in, densely populateddowntown areas.
(16:25):
And so we look at parking as anopportunity to buy a prime piece
of real estate in a phenomenallocation, what we, classify as
irreplaceable real estate, Inaddition to that, typically what
we buy, we're buying for belowreplacement cost.
The current use today asparking.
We know and we're confident Thatis the lowest use that property
will ever have, meaning it canonly go up from there.
It'll only be something else atsome point in the future.
However, we don't underwrite thefuture.
(16:47):
We only underwrite today.
And so we've gotta make theeconomics and the business model
work as parking at the presenttime.
And so, we disclosed on aproperty a couple months back
and, historic, old TownPhiladelphia, literally a block
away from the Liberty Bell, twoblocks from Independence Hall,
irreplaceable Real Estate.
You would never be able torebuild that parking structure
again today.
Even if you could spend, as muchmoney as it costs to do it, you
(17:08):
would not be allowed to rebuildthat structure.
Right.
In addition to that, we got upfor below replacement costs.
In addition to that, there'sjust no vacant land left.
There's no land and the demanddrivers of why people are
parking there, you know, allthese tourist attractions one of
the oldest cities in thecountry, they're not going
anywhere.
People are gonna continuevisiting there and.
Parking is gonna continue tobecoming more scarce over time.
(17:28):
And so, that's why we loveparking.
The last thing to mention isthat a lot of parking, just like
mobile home parks, just likemulti-family, there's
opportunities to pull valuelevers.
The parking garage we bought inPhiladelphia, we bought from an
institutional investor, mostfolks think that institutional
groups.
Do it all right.
They've got all the MBAs, MITgrads, they've got the smartest
folks running the show, butthey're such big behemoths.
(17:48):
There's so many politicsinvolved in making decisions
that.
There's a lot of inefficienciesthat get created there.
And so like in that Philadelphiagarage, we've already pulled a
couple levers and added a couplemillion dollar in value just by
literally making someadjustments to the pricing.
Redoing some minor items such asimproving the lighting,
improving the safety measures,making people safe, you know,
parking there.
Just literally a couple monthsimproved that value or increase
(18:08):
that value by about$4 million.
It's a cash flow covered landplay.
We know that parking's gonna bein high demand for many years to
come When that day comes wherecars might be flying and we
don't need parking garages.
I think that's far off in thefuture, when that day comes, I
know that land will be worthsomething incredibly valuable.
As another use.
Whatever that use might be, I'mnot sure, but it will have a
higher best use.
Speaker (18:28):
that is awesome, man.
And no big tenants, toilets.
minimal termite.
'cause it's street concrete.
yeah.
It's concrete.
Speaker 2 (18:35):
or asphalt.
Speaker (18:36):
The plumbing is, minimal, fire sprinkler and the
elevators.
Right.
And you don't have to haveanyone there working, the kiosks
or anything like that.
So, that's right.
Yeah, it's very manageablebusiness.
Man.
Man, brother, I could talk toyou for a good two hours in some
of these things, right?
And I, but I know you gotta dropdead time here shortly.
And I want you to talk aboutyour, the psychology of wealth.
(18:58):
How To think like a cash flowinvestor.
Can you talk about that briefly,Like, maybe like a minute.
You know what mindset shiftseparates people who build long
term, wealth from the people whochase shiny objects.
Maybe like for.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
I mean, for me, like cash flow, it's a pretty simple
premise.
you invest in an asset thatthrows off cash flow ultimately,
like you're taking your originalprinciple investment and you're
not spending that principle,those principle dollars on
material items or, fancyvacations or a home you're
making a principal investmentinto an asset that's throwing
off cash flow.
I think the way to real wealthis letting time take place,
watching the value go up on thatasset over time.
(19:33):
But I think to compound thateffect is to take the cash flow
from that and then reinvest thatcash flow.
Buying for depreciation orbuying for appreciation.
can work.
But it's Really difficult totime the cycles.
As I referenced in 2008, itcaught me off guard.
I wasn't trying to time thecycle, but it caught me with my
pants down where we lost a lotof money, practically everything
because it was really anappreciation game.
Challenging to time the market,even the smartest folks.
(19:55):
even with, AI and all thesetechnology, it's still
impossible at the time themarket.
And so if you buy for cash flowand you buy with durable cash
flow, and you just, and you gottime on your side, you know,
typically time will heal allwounds it's easier to heal those
wounds if you've got.
Positive cash flow coming in atthe same time.
So, I think making sure that youbuy assets that have cash flow
from day one is the way to go.
I know that's difficult and evenmore difficult nowadays to do,
(20:18):
easier said than done, but thedeals are out there, the
opportunities are there.
You just gotta work really hardto find them, This is applicable
than anything in life as well.
Work harder than your nextcompetitor.
Like you don't have to besmarter, just have to work
harder, work a little longer,right?
Grind a little deeper, and Ipromise you that you'll find
success where others don't.
Speaker (20:34):
That is awesome, man.
Kevin, if our listeners wannaget in touch with you, how do
they go about doing that?
Speaker 2 (20:39):
Yeah, so you can check out what we're doing at
Sunrise Capital.
you go over to invest withsunrise.com and learn a little
bit more about what we do I'mpretty active on, different
social channels.
Very active on LinkedIn.
you can search me by my nameKevin Bupp.
And, and I, I think I'm the onlyKevin Bupp out there.
I've got kind of a unique lastname, so not too hard to track
down.
Speaker (20:53):
Okay.
Thank you, listeners, today'sconversation was a reminder
that, Wealth is built onfundamentals, discipline, and
the right vehicle.
You don't need hype, Kevinshowed us, the niche asset,
mobile, home park, parking lots,recession resilience and cash
flow, if you want to build truewealth, stick to the
fundamentals.
thank you for spending time withus in another episode of the
Multifamily Real EstateExperiment podcast.
(21:14):
Until next time, I'm HutchMarine Investor out.
Wah Gwan all you multifamily enthusiast.
Welcome to another episode ofthe Multi-Family Real Estate
Experiment podcast, where webreak down the mindset,
mechanics and marketintelligence needed to help you
own more of America.
Now today's guest, built a realestate empire.
Lost it in 2008 crash and thenrebuild it stronger than ever.
(00:21):
And listen, some of you meetroadblocks, in your life and
think it's the end of the world.
But most of you understand thatis a setup for the getup.
We're gonna talk to Kevin Bupptoday.
Kevin Bupp is the CEO of SunriseCapital Investors.
He has over$500 million in realestate in transaction.
He hosts a top rated realestate, investing cashflow
(00:45):
podcasts.
He's also the author of theCashflow Investor and one of the
country's most respected voicein the mobile home parking lots.
It also, which is a unique nichein a commercial real estate
asset.
Its Insight has been featured,everywhere in the BiggerPockets,
the International InvestmentConference, and today he's here
(01:07):
to teach us what most mainstreaminvestors completely overlook.
Kevin, welcome to the Deal Lab,brother.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
Hey Hutch, thanks for having me, I'm excited to be
here.
Speaker (01:18):
Yes, sir.
Brother, do you have a favoritereal estate quote or mantra that
drive you?
Let's talk about that before weget into the tactical stuff.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Yeah, that's a good question.
I'll share two with you.
I've got two young sons, they're9 and 12.
I say this to them all the time.
This is applicable to any partof your life, whether it be real
estate, investing, sports,business, marriage, get
comfortable with beinguncomfortable.
Throughout your life, you needto get very comfortable with
getting outside of your comfortzone and being uncomfortable.
So that's the only place we findgrowth as individuals.
(01:47):
And then the other one is, I'm abig fan of Warren Buffett.
one of, Warren Buffett's famousquotes is, rule number one,
never lose money.
Rule number two, never forgetrule number one.
So we live by that at SunriseCapital.
Speaker (01:57):
Yeah, that is awesome, man.
Look.
I've been in the Marine Corpsfor a while now, and some of the
best relationships that I'vemade is being in, really
uncomfortable situation andenvironment with limited
resources, that we consider,austere environment, right?
You get to see what drives you,what fuels you.
You get to see what you do, whyyou do it.
(02:18):
And you get to see the peoplearound you, what makes them
tick.
You get to see their growth aswell.
You also get to see the oneswho, who break.
so you get to see the ones whoare dependable.
And you also get to realize thatyou may or may not be a
dependable, person as well.
You know what I mean?
So the discomfort really drivesyou to a higher level of growth.
(02:39):
In multiple situations.
Absolutely.
Yes sir.
Now, Kevin, I agree
Speaker 2 (02:42):
wholeheartedly.
Speaker (02:43):
Yes sir.
I appreciate it.
So you built a hundred milliondollar plus portfolio, and then
in 2008, like a lot of peoplehave seen a multiple market
cycle, lost everything.
Most people never recover fromthat.
Can you walk us through,brother, what you did, what did
losing your portfolio teach youabout leverage risk, true
fundamentals, of wealth.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
Yeah, it's a great question.
it was a very challenging time.
had found some, significantsuccess in my early to late
twenties, leading up to 0 8, Iabout a, nearly a hundred
million dollars.
About$75 million real estateportfolio of, single family
homes and multifamilyproperties, in southwest
Florida.
The first big lesson I took awayfrom that is, a large majority
of my portfolio were singlefamily properties.
(03:26):
The operational side of that, weowned properties spread amongst
five different counties.
It was a very inefficientprocess.
It was very expensive to managethem, technology.
Exist today.
That didn't exist back then.
That creates a lot ofefficiencies that weren't really
in place back then.
And so while I had low leveragepoints on everything, I wasn't
making a lot of cash flow.
I speak about cash flow todaybecause really it's our number
one principle.
But, if I'm being brutal honestwith myself, my portfolio was
(03:49):
more built around appreciation.
That kind of, rose with all thetides in Florida, Florida's a
very cyclical market.
It goes to really high peaks andit goes to lows.
and that's typical of a lot ofthe coastal markets.
while I made some cash flow, itwasn't durable enough to
withstand, negative impacts thatoccurred, during that period of
time.
A lot of folks say rents nevergo down.
That was not the case.
there were, periods of timewhere we had, oversupply of
(04:11):
homes here in Florida, and sothat, that impacted our rental
portfolio.
In addition to that, when theystopped building new homes, a
lot of the jobs went away.
There weren't as many, thepopulation, slightly decreased
in Florida.
Folks had to move other placesto find work.
And so we had challenges,maintaining occupancy.
And so once you start stackingall the challenges, maintaining
occupancy, lowering our rents,offering concessions, we had
(04:33):
challenges being our debtservice.
And in addition to that, the,values of these properties, even
though we had low leveragepoints, we had, built in equity,
a lot of them within a period ofa year.
We're upside down in value, evenif our leverage point was in the
60% range, so we were prettyconservative generally speaking.
But, you know, we lost nearly 50or 60% of the value in a period
of a year.
that value has since come back,but we didn't have the
(04:55):
durability to weather thatstorm, We look at things very
differently today.
We've got to, we put a lot ofstress test in place on our
properties.
we're still very conservativewith leverage, however, we look
at worst case scenarios.
we underwrite to various cliffswithin the financial model to
ensure that any event of a worstcase scenario, can we still make
debt service?
can we weather the storm andcarry it through to the other
(05:15):
side?
And so, that's probably the bigdifference and one of the
biggest lessons I took away fromthat period and how we've,
restructured our portfoliotoday.
We just had a challenging coupleof years, with interest rates
going up.
A lot of folks are in trouble.
a lot of folks had short-termdebt in place.
We have not missed a quarterlydistribution.
We're proud to say that we'veliterally made 34 quarterly
distributions in a row.
We've gone right through COVIDgoing right through the last
(05:36):
couple of years with interestrate increases.
We don't have adjustable ratedebt.
We've got long-term debt in ourportfolio and our leverage
points are low.
Even if we, lose occupancy inany of our assets, has not
impacted our ability to paydistributions and debt service.
It's a very durable portfolioversus what looked good.
On the outside of, my oldportfolio.
When you really got into it gotinto the nitty gritty, you found
(05:57):
that there was lots of weaklinks, on the chain.
And so, just lots of lessonslearned.
But those are some of the bigones,
Speaker (06:02):
We are as strong as the weakest link in the chain.
That's right.
I wanna talk about Mobile HomePark because you probably deal
with this question quite a bit,and I think it comes from a
place of lack of understanding.
We drive past these things and,don't really quite understand,
mobile home parks.
You have doubled down on mobilehome parks, when most
(06:24):
syndicators chase apartments, Iwould like for you to help our
listeners understand, what makesMobile Home Park one of the most
recession resilient high demand,with limited supply assets in
the commercial real estatespace.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
Yeah, that's a great question.
You know, funny enough, I knowyou're based in Hawaii.
Hawaii is the one state thatdoes not have any mobile home
parks they don't exist there.
Probably the cost oftransporting the mobile homes,
across the ocean and there's nomanufacturers there for mobile
homes.
I've always been a contrarianinvestor.
I always try to, you know,where's the herd going?
What's on the opposing side?
Is there opportunity there?
Right.
And so, you know, mobile homeparks now are pretty popular in
(07:00):
the mainstream.
Lots of institutional money isin the space.
That wasn't the case.
13 years ago when we startedbuying them.
It was a very, unrealized niche.
If you knew, you knew, but ifyou didn't, you didn't.
It was like a little, good oldboys club.
Lots of mom and pop type owners,not big institutional groups.
Once we identified, a potentialopportunity there, we bought a
property I didn't know I, I'dknown Apartment Complex has
(07:21):
owned, portfolios of singlefamily homes, another type of
commercial real estate.
I didn't know what I didn'tknow, and there wasn't a lot of
information out there.
What I did know is that theaffordable housing crisis, was
real 13 years ago when westarted buying mobile home
parks.
It's even more real today.
Mobile Home parks, offer, what Ifeel is the best unsubsidized
housing option in any marketacross the country.
You can take any of our mobilehome parks in any city that we
(07:43):
own across the country, and Ican promise you that it's.
A better quality than whatyou're gonna get for the same
price point in an apartmentcomplex.
More than likely it's half theprice of the same size stick
build home.
Our competitors are apartmentcomplexes.
we offer the American dream tothose that would otherwise be
renting an apartment, but for amuch less price.
They can live the American dreamin a brand new mobile home than
what they might be paying tolive in a, B minus or C plus
(08:05):
class apartment complex.
It's a Very compelling picturethat we can paint to, provide, a
beautiful form of housing at avery affordable price.
And so, I bought that firstproperty, 13 years ago.
Didn't know what I didn't know.
Bought it, stabilized it, did alot of improvements and it
filled up very quickly.
We made something very nice.
It was in a good part of town.
It was in.
The good school district.
So folks wanted to live there,wanted to raise their kids
(08:25):
there, right?
They wanna send their kids tothe good schools or good,
hardworking blue collar folks.
but they need an affordableplace to, to reside and raise
their family, and that's what weprovide.
that hasn't changed.
That's still the same storylinetoday.
But the unique thing aboutmobile home parks is that it's
one of two asset classes thathas a diminishing supply,
meaning that.
There's more mobile homecommunities that get torn down
(08:47):
or redeveloped every year.
Meaning that there's a shrinkingsupply than new supply that
comes on online.
And so we've got this uniqueasset class to where if we buy
in a great market.
And a great part of town, we canfix it up, do great things with
it.
We don't have to worry about anew competitor being built right
down the road.
It's a very isolated, assetclass and also has a,
significant barrier to entry.
(09:07):
Whereas, in self-storage orapartments you've always got the
concern of potential oversupply,someone else coming in, building
too many units, and then thatultimately impacts, what you
might be able to charge or howfast you might be able to lease
up,
Speaker (09:18):
Yeah.
That is interesting, man.
So there's a couple differentways to my understanding that
we, can, run a Mobile home parkbusiness, right.
I'd like to dive more, into yourbusiness strategy as far as the,
as your practitioner.
Right.
Where the residents, they canown the mobile home and just
rent a lot from you or youyourself can own the mobile home
and the lot and the maintenancethat comes along with it.
(09:39):
Which one of those you see to bemore successful or do you do a
practitioner of both?
Multiple,
Speaker 2 (09:44):
We're a practitioner of both, but only out of
necessity.
the ideal business model is wedon't own any of the homes.
We just own the property, theinfrastructure, and we rent the
lot to the residents, and theyown the home when they own the
home, they're responsible like ahomeowner would be.
They're responsible for if theroof leaks, the plumbing leaks,
if the AC breaks, right?
They're calling the vendors.
They're not relying uponlandlord, to fix those items,
(10:04):
right?
And so it's, the expense load ismuch lower when we don't own
that unit.
When the resident owns thathome, it's very akin to that of
a stick boat home.
To them they're living in asubdivision.
what that means is we've got asignificantly lower amount of
turnover of resident base,whereas with renters, they might
be moving every 12, 18, 24months.
We've got residents that havelived in some of our communities
for four decades, even.
(10:25):
There's a couple that have livedthere for five decades, and
there's multiple, you know,components of their, of multiple
generations living in that samecommunity as well.
So you've got entire families,2, 3, 4 generations of families
living in some of thesecommunities.
And so they don't leave.
They stay, they're stickyresident base.
And so we like that, they've gota pride of ownership.
There's a sense of communitythat just doesn't necessarily
exist when you have.
Renters, in the units.
And so again, in a perfectworld, we wouldn't own any.
(10:48):
However, there's a number ofcommunities that we buy, where
the prior ownership might have,had some rental units in there.
Sometimes it might be fiveunits, sometimes it might be 50.
In our entire portfolio today,we own about 3,500 units, 3,500
mobile home spaces.
Of those 3,500, we probably haveabout 400 of the actual homes
that we own inside ourportfolio.
Some of our communities, we havezero that we own, and others we
(11:10):
might have 50 or 60 or 70 thatwe own.
Right.
And it just varies community tocommunity.
But ideally we would own zero.
Speaker (11:17):
Okay.
So if you acquire a mobile homepark where the current owner
owns.
The home and the land.
do you have a process to get thecurrent resident to take over
the ownership of the home?
Yes.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
Yeah, that's a great question.
typically, if there's a renterin there, normally what we'll do
is, give them the opportunity,try to give them a compelling
reason, of, us financing thehome form or provi, you know,
helping them get financing andshowing'em that it, it's more
than likely cheaper for them toactually own that home.
However, some folks.
Should be renters, right?
they may don't have an interestin being a homeowner.
They don't have, an interest inbeing responsible for items that
(11:49):
need repaired or investing backin that home.
And so it's very difficult toconvert someone that, is a
lifelong renter and desires tobe into a homeowner.
And so we always attempt toconvert.
If they don't have an interestin buying, normally what we do
is if they're a good payingtenant and a good, citizen of
our community, then we just letthem rent until the time comes
where they no longer choose torent.
Once they move outta that unit,we do a renovation and then we
(12:11):
put it back on the market forsale.
That's normally the protocolthat we go through.
we've got, about 10% of ourportfolios rentals today.
We're always Going through thatconversion process.
However, we're always buying newcommunities and we start
wheeling that number down andthen we'll go buy, like we're
buying a, we close on acommunity tomorrow morning.
It's a six park portfolio.
And inside that six parkportfolio, there's about 500,
500 sites in total.
(12:33):
And of those 500 sites, there's70 units that are owned by the
various communities.
And so, you know, we'll have tostart working towards chipping
that 70 number down, over thecoming years.
Speaker (12:42):
It's always con,
Speaker 2 (12:43):
continual progress.
Speaker (12:44):
Yeah.
That's awesome, man.
So I'm trying to visualize this,right?
And if I was to buy an apartmentcomplex and now sell that off to
the resident, that creates somecomplexity as far as cash flow
value, so on and so forth,right?
Speaker 2 (12:57):
selling the land though, we're we keep the land,
correct?
Yes.
We're just selling the home.
Speaker (13:00):
So, as you sell those homes To the residents, What is
the financial impact on thevaluation of those parks?
Speaker 2 (13:08):
It's beneficial.
it actually increases the value.
You have to bifurcate thevaluation.
When we look at a park, we'relooking at the capitalized
income derived from the lotsthemselves.
Just like you would underwritean apartment complex.
The durable income we want is onthe lot.
Income itself, not on the actualincome from the home if it's a
rental.
These homes are personalproperty.
Classified as what's calledchattel.
And so they're no different orno different classification than
(13:30):
like a vehicle, a car, a truck.
So, they tend to depreciate invalue because they're personal
property.
They're not attached to realproperty.
When we buy a new mobile homepark, that has units owned by
the community, we evaluate itseparately.
We capitalize the income on thepark, and come up with a
valuation in that manner.
And then we just put a shellvalue on the home itself.
Based on how old these homesare, you know, the condition, we
(13:51):
might say, Hey, they're worth15,000, 20,000,$30,000 a pop.
and so it, what happens is, whenwe can sell that home off the
end user.
The desirability goes up quite abit because most other buyers in
the marketplace, especiallyinstitutional buyers, don't want
to own any homes.
They have no interest in owninghomes.
They don't want, they don'twanna be in the rental business
'cause they know that it's justa lot more turnover.
(14:14):
the income's not as sticky.
Typically what we'll see is caprate compression.
If we can get rid of.
All the park owned homes over aperiod of time and then turn
around and sell that property.
Whereas if it had park ownedhomes originally, it might have,
maybe it sold for six cap.
But if we can get rid of allthose park owned homes and sell
it as a fully stabilizedproperty with no rental units it
might get a 25 basis point,maybe even a 50 basis point
premium on cap rate.
(14:35):
So we get some cap ratecompression because now we're
selling an asset that.
it's got lower maintenancerequirements.
We don't have to have as much,involvement from a community
manager to oversee it.
We don't have to havemaintenance guys on staff.
It's really simple and there'svery little turnover.
We're not involved in leasinghomes.
We're not involved in sellinghomes.
It's a very simple businessmodel.
Once we can get to that point.
Speaker (14:54):
No, that is pretty cool, man.
I've interviewed a costsegregation guy, he was talking
about the type of propertiesthat, that has the highest level
of, bonus depreciation in mobilehome park.
Yeah.
Tends to be one of them.
Which makes sense, right?
Because you pay this high dollarvalue for, land and a small
amount of improvement, right?
That's right.
The cross segregation mostly ison the land improvements.
(15:15):
Then you get to, that's right.
You get to have a huge taxbenefit for those passive
investors who are investing,for, tax benefits.
So yeah, I like that concept aswell, man.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
About 70 to 75 cents, for every dollar of purchase
price that we get.
It's significant.
Yeah, it's a lot.
I think car washes are the onlyasset that actually have a
greater bonus depreciationopportunity because of all the
equipment, they have with them.
But, mobile home parks, I thinkare second line.
Speaker (15:40):
I got you for about another seven minutes.
Before we get into the focusrun, I wanna talk a little bit
about parking lots.
I live here in Hawaii andparking downtown is probably one
of the most lucrative thing downthere, man, because they're so
scarce.
You go into, in some majorcities, you go to like New York,
San Diego, different places,Vegas, right?
Parking structure, it becomes ascarcity.
(16:01):
Right.
Can you tell us a little bitabout that business model and
why?
Speaker 2 (16:04):
You hit one of the important points.
it's scarce.
In fact, it's the second assetclass as a diminishing supply.
if you've lived in a certaincity for.
A couple decades, and you canthink back to what maybe the
downtown area looked like 30years ago.
More than likely, there wasquite a bit more surface lots
than today.
They've been redeveloped intocondos mixed use properties
apartment buildings or officebuildings, land is scarce,
especially in, densely populateddowntown areas.
(16:25):
And so we look at parking as anopportunity to buy a prime piece
of real estate in a phenomenallocation, what we, classify as
irreplaceable real estate, Inaddition to that, typically what
we buy, we're buying for belowreplacement cost.
The current use today asparking.
We know and we're confident Thatis the lowest use that property
will ever have, meaning it canonly go up from there.
It'll only be something else atsome point in the future.
However, we don't underwrite thefuture.
(16:47):
We only underwrite today.
And so we've gotta make theeconomics and the business model
work as parking at the presenttime.
And so, we disclosed on aproperty a couple months back
and, historic, old TownPhiladelphia, literally a block
away from the Liberty Bell, twoblocks from Independence Hall,
irreplaceable Real Estate.
You would never be able torebuild that parking structure
again today.
Even if you could spend, as muchmoney as it costs to do it, you
(17:08):
would not be allowed to rebuildthat structure.
Right.
In addition to that, we got upfor below replacement costs.
In addition to that, there'sjust no vacant land left.
There's no land and the demanddrivers of why people are
parking there, you know, allthese tourist attractions one of
the oldest cities in thecountry, they're not going
anywhere.
People are gonna continuevisiting there and.
Parking is gonna continue tobecoming more scarce over time.
(17:28):
And so, that's why we loveparking.
The last thing to mention isthat a lot of parking, just like
mobile home parks, just likemulti-family, there's
opportunities to pull valuelevers.
The parking garage we bought inPhiladelphia, we bought from an
institutional investor, mostfolks think that institutional
groups.
Do it all right.
They've got all the MBAs, MITgrads, they've got the smartest
folks running the show, butthey're such big behemoths.
(17:48):
There's so many politicsinvolved in making decisions
that.
There's a lot of inefficienciesthat get created there.
And so like in that Philadelphiagarage, we've already pulled a
couple levers and added a couplemillion dollar in value just by
literally making someadjustments to the pricing.
Redoing some minor items such asimproving the lighting,
improving the safety measures,making people safe, you know,
parking there.
Just literally a couple monthsimproved that value or increase
(18:08):
that value by about$4 million.
It's a cash flow covered landplay.
We know that parking's gonna bein high demand for many years to
come When that day comes wherecars might be flying and we
don't need parking garages.
I think that's far off in thefuture, when that day comes, I
know that land will be worthsomething incredibly valuable.
As another use.
Whatever that use might be, I'mnot sure, but it will have a
higher best use.
Speaker (18:28):
that is awesome, man.
And no big tenants, toilets.
minimal termite.
'cause it's street concrete.
yeah.
It's concrete.
Speaker 2 (18:35):
or asphalt.
Speaker (18:36):
The plumbing is, minimal, fire sprinkler and the
elevators.
Right.
And you don't have to haveanyone there working, the kiosks
or anything like that.
So, that's right.
Yeah, it's very manageablebusiness.
Man.
Man, brother, I could talk toyou for a good two hours in some
of these things, right?
And I, but I know you gotta dropdead time here shortly.
And I want you to talk aboutyour, the psychology of wealth.
(18:58):
How To think like a cash flowinvestor.
Can you talk about that briefly,Like, maybe like a minute.
You know what mindset shiftseparates people who build long
term, wealth from the people whochase shiny objects.
Maybe like for.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
I mean, for me, like cash flow, it's a pretty simple
premise.
you invest in an asset thatthrows off cash flow ultimately,
like you're taking your originalprinciple investment and you're
not spending that principle,those principle dollars on
material items or, fancyvacations or a home you're
making a principal investmentinto an asset that's throwing
off cash flow.
I think the way to real wealthis letting time take place,
watching the value go up on thatasset over time.
(19:33):
But I think to compound thateffect is to take the cash flow
from that and then reinvest thatcash flow.
Buying for depreciation orbuying for appreciation.
can work.
But it's Really difficult totime the cycles.
As I referenced in 2008, itcaught me off guard.
I wasn't trying to time thecycle, but it caught me with my
pants down where we lost a lotof money, practically everything
because it was really anappreciation game.
Challenging to time the market,even the smartest folks.
(19:55):
even with, AI and all thesetechnology, it's still
impossible at the time themarket.
And so if you buy for cash flowand you buy with durable cash
flow, and you just, and you gottime on your side, you know,
typically time will heal allwounds it's easier to heal those
wounds if you've got.
Positive cash flow coming in atthe same time.
So, I think making sure that youbuy assets that have cash flow
from day one is the way to go.
I know that's difficult and evenmore difficult nowadays to do,
(20:18):
easier said than done, but thedeals are out there, the
opportunities are there.
You just gotta work really hardto find them, This is applicable
than anything in life as well.
Work harder than your nextcompetitor.
Like you don't have to besmarter, just have to work
harder, work a little longer,right?
Grind a little deeper, and Ipromise you that you'll find
success where others don't.
Speaker (20:34):
That is awesome, man.
Kevin, if our listeners wannaget in touch with you, how do
they go about doing that?
Speaker 2 (20:39):
Yeah, so you can check out what we're doing at
Sunrise Capital.
you go over to invest withsunrise.com and learn a little
bit more about what we do I'mpretty active on, different
social channels.
Very active on LinkedIn.
you can search me by my nameKevin Bupp.
And, and I, I think I'm the onlyKevin Bupp out there.
I've got kind of a unique lastname, so not too hard to track
down.
Speaker (20:53):
Okay.
Thank you, listeners, today'sconversation was a reminder
that, Wealth is built onfundamentals, discipline, and
the right vehicle.
You don't need hype, Kevinshowed us, the niche asset,
mobile, home park, parking lots,recession resilience and cash
flow, if you want to build truewealth, stick to the
fundamentals.
thank you for spending time withus in another episode of the
Multifamily Real EstateExperiment podcast.
(21:14):
Until next time, I'm HutchMarine Investor out.
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If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Betrayal: Weekly
Betrayal Weekly is back for a brand new season. Every Thursday, Betrayal Weekly shares first-hand accounts of broken trust, shocking deceptions, and the trail of destruction they leave behind. Hosted by Andrea Gunning, this weekly ongoing series digs into real-life stories of betrayal and the aftermath. From stories of double lives to dark discoveries, these are cautionary tales and accounts of resilience against all odds. From the producers of the critically acclaimed Betrayal series, Betrayal Weekly drops new episodes every Thursday. Please join our Substack for additional exclusive content, curated book recommendations and community discussions. Sign up FREE by clicking this link Beyond Betrayal Substack. Join our community dedicated to truth, resilience and healing. Your voice matters! Be a part of our Betrayal journey on Substack. And make sure to check out Seasons 1-4 of Betrayal, along with Betrayal Weekly Season 1.