August 4, 2025 • 74 mins
The long-awaited arrest of Jeffrey Gordon unfolds in this riveting episode that takes us deep into the interrogation room where a seemingly ordinary man's dark secrets are methodically exposed.
When Michigan State Police finally match DNA evidence to local sprinkler installer Jeffrey Gordon in the 16-year-old Margaret Eby murder case, tensions immediately flare between law enforcement agencies. Genesee County Prosecutor Arthur Bush is furious about being kept in the dark until the last moment, creating a backdrop of professional conflict that threatens to complicate the case. Meanwhile, Detective Dan Snyder makes the emotional call he's been waiting 11 years to make to Nancy Ludwig's father: "We got Nancy's killer."
The heart of this episode centers on the masterfully conducted interrogation of Gordon. Detectives Larson and Kilbourne skillfully build rapport with their suspect, gradually moving from mundane questions about his background toward revealing questions about his criminal history in Florida. Gordon's body language—arms crossed, constant rocking, nervous fidgeting—betrays his anxiety even as he attempts to maintain composure. What emerges is a disturbing pattern: Gordon's fetish for women's clothing led to break-ins and escalating confrontations with women.
The interrogation reaches its dramatic climax when investigators confront Gordon with irrefutable FBI fingerprint evidence placing him at the murder scene. "I absolutely positively know you did it," Detective Larson declares, cutting through Gordon's denials. Despite their appeals for him to explain his actions and take responsibility, Gordon maintains his innocence until the handcuffs click shut.
This episode illustrates a profound truth about predators: they rarely match our image of monsters. As one detective reflects, "All these years the Flint PD was looking for a monster and they should have been looking for the guy next door." Subscribe now to hear how an ordinary man with a seemingly normal family life harbored deadly secrets for nearly two decades.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to the Murder Book.
I'm your host, kiara, and thisis part 13 of Jeffrey Gordon's
Deadly Secret.
Let's begin.
Genesee County ProsecutorArthur Bush leaned back in his
big black chair late Fridaymorning and he thought that this
(00:25):
is going to be a long day.
Little did he know just howlong the day would be or how
much he would earn his Saturdayand Sunday.
It was a work day, but insteadof suit and tie he was dressed
in blue jeans and hiking bootsand a black t-shirt.
The historic Stately Courthousein downtown Flint was
(00:47):
undergoing a major renovationand today was moving day for his
staff across the street totemporary offices in a small,
low-slung office building.
He had been nursing a bad backand had put off the move as long
as possible, but he was runningout of time.
He had to clear out to makeroom for the contractors and he
(01:10):
had been carrying boxes to themoving trucks and was taking a
short break for a meeting, heand Randy Petridis, who was the
chief of the trial division, andthey have a schedule with Flint
police and senior staff todiscuss a felony case.
But then his cell phone rangBush's cell phone.
(01:31):
He took the call, put down thephone and he asked the police to
leave.
It was Captain Dan Miller ofthe Michigan State Police
calling to let him know therehad been a DNA match on the Ebi
case, that they were about topick up a local guy for Ebi's
murder after some undercoversurveillance work and they would
(01:55):
be coming over for search andarrest warrants popped his
spleen.
The biggest case in Flint indecades was about to become the
biggest arrest and prosecutionof his career and they were
letting him know now.
Clearly they have intentionallykept him out of the loop.
(02:17):
He would be kept in thefreaking dark with the mushrooms
while it all went down.
That was to him an intolerablelack of etiquette, courtesy and
even common sense and just thecourtesy of a call the night
before and he could have alertedhis staff to forgo the casual
(02:38):
clothes, forget about moving.
So now he was steaming and heeven said the following quote I
(03:04):
was pissed they did it onpurpose to minimize my
involvement because we had hadour run-ins over the years.
I was not involved or consultedin this hosting operation.
End quote Norman Gordon'sinterview.
Wouldn't it have made sense toask the prosecutor for advice on
questions that might elicit thekind of answers they could use
in court, and he even say thatit's a team play.
But the state police don't playa team game, they're lone
rangers.
Bonnet, though, says there wasa good reason to keep him in the
(03:29):
dark, that both the Flint PDand the prosecutor's office were
notorious for leaks.
And he would say quote, youwill go in for a search warrant.
And when you went to serve ityou didn't know if they were
going to greet you with milk andcookies.
You never knew where the leakswere coming from.
End quote Snyder.
(03:52):
Detective Snyder says quote, inWayne County we would have got
the warrants to the prosecutorthe night before, but the state
police wouldn't consider faxingthem to Bush the night before
because they didn't trust him orhis office.
Butler Sprinkler was a businessand you never know if Gorton's
(04:12):
dad was a campaign contributorand might get a call tipping him
off.
While Gorton was beinginterviewed by Kilbourne and
Larson, other state police andRomulus cops drove downtown to
meet with Bush.
They thought getting warrantswould be a slam dunk, a mere
formality.
They thought wrong.
(04:33):
Bush wasn't the only one who wasgoing to be in for a long day.
Bush was a liberal Democrat,grew up three blocks from the
site of the historic Flintsit-down strikes of the 1930s
which gave birth to the UnitedAuto Workers.
And as a boy he delivered theFlint Journal to Fisher Body
(04:56):
Plant no 1 and hung out at thenearby Union Hall where he
learned most of his politicsUnion Hall, where he learned
most of his politics.
He has outlined a book he hopesto find a publisher for, with
the working title Declaring Waron Everything, about how, in his
words, 10 years of right-wingjustice had filled our prisons,
(05:20):
how ill-served as a society weare by the military analogies
politicians used to declare waron terrorism, war on drugs, and
how we need to stop warehousingcriminals and start
rehabilitating them.
He would say there is nodelivery system for
rehabilitation.
(05:41):
Do we believe only inretribution for rehabilitation?
Do we believe only inretribution?
Bush has several big scenes inMichael Moore's Bowling for
Columbine bemoaning, asbefitting a Michael Moore movie,
racism and its effect on thepoor of Flint.
What he didn't tell Moore'saudience is what he brags about
(06:01):
to visitors to his office thathe has almost single-handedly
taken on the gangs in Flintgetting their butts off the
streets and into prisons, thegangs, of course, being made up
generally of the same poorminority he accuses the system
of warehousing.
Bush is eloquent, quotable andloves the limelight.
(06:23):
He showed all three qualitiesin 2000 when the national media
descended on Flint after asix-year-old first grader her
name was Kayla Rowland wasintentionally shot and killed by
a classmate who had found a .32caliber semi-automatic in his
house and brought it to school.
His mom was at work as part ofthe state's work to collect
(06:47):
welfare laws and a 19-year-oldstaying at her house had
neglected to hide or unload theweapon.
The story touched any number ofmedia hot buttons, and Bush's
too.
For days, the camera crewslined up in a row outside the
school filing their reports.
(07:07):
Bush would walk the line doingone stand-up after another.
As much as he favored thenational attention, he knew when
and how to play a local gamealso.
One day he was just about to doa lengthy interview for a local
TV news show when a nationalproducer pulled him aside and
asked him if they could grab himnow.
(07:29):
And he said no, you can'tbecause I'm busy.
And the producer said but it'sKatie Couric.
And he said to the producer butI don't get elected in
Manhattan, but I don't getelected in
Manhattan.
April of 2003 was aninteresting month for Bush, to
(07:49):
say the least.
He started it out in Hollywoodaccompanying Moore to a round of
Oscar bashes and he finished itin Washington arguing before
the Supreme Court that aconviction years earlier in a
murder case in Genesee Countydid not amount to double
jeopardy, even though the judgehad originally decided that the
(08:10):
facts in the case did not marrya charge of premeditation, then
later reversed himself.
The Oscar voters agreed withhis friend more and the Supreme
Court later unanimously agreedwith him.
And the Supreme Court laterunanimously agreed with him.
Fresh back from Hollywood andabout to leave for Washington
for his appearance before theSupreme Court, bush was blunt
(08:31):
and shot from the tip.
When interviewed about theevents on the day Gordon was
picked up, he admitted he wasangry from the start about a
state police task force beingestablished in Flint and he
admitted he didn't have much usein general for the cops who ran
it.
Bush had applied for funding toset up his own cold case squad.
(08:51):
When word came that the statepolice would be running one
instead and that no funds wouldbe forthcoming for his staff, he
said the decision was made bythen-Mich Michigan Governor John
Engler, something state policepress dismissed as
preposterous.
Bush said he met at one of hisfavorite spots in Flint, the
(09:14):
Sunrise County Island.
He said quote I like to hide inthe corner there and people
don't know my business Todiscuss, end quote.
And you know he wanted to gothere to discuss a cold case
squad with his chiefinvestigator, gary Elford, who
had run the Ebi crime scene andlater joined Bush's staff after
(09:35):
retiring from the Flynn PD.
So Bush said quote.
I had Gary meet me there tohave coffee and I told him I
wanted to work on the Abby case.
It bugged me.
We couldn't solve it after allthose years.
I thought DNA had gotten cheapenough we could afford to run
tests without a lot of time andexpense.
(09:56):
End quote.
Bush said he even had meetingswith King and former members of
the Flint PD to learn about thecase and that he was planning to
take a hands-on approach tointerviewing their chief suspect
, charles Stone, who wasreported to be living in
Maryland.
And he said well, I wasplanning a trip to Maryland with
(10:17):
gold gloves in hand.
I was going to show up thereall these years later and have a
chat withhim.
But within a couple of days ofmeeting with Gary the state
police came in.
Maybe my paranoia is runningwild.
But my idea wasn't popular withthe Engler administration
because they didn't want ademocratic prosecutor to get the
(10:38):
kind of publicity this thingwould develop.
As soon as they figure out whatI was up to, they sent in 10
state police officers with thesum total of one homicide
investigation between them.
I was pretty upset with ChiefBarksdale that he agreed to it
(10:59):
without consulting me and that'shis quote
directly.
The state police and Bush hadclashed several times during the
cold case investigations.
Once when he refused to issue awarrant to arrest a truck
driver and the serial raping ofprostitutes.
Another when he refused asearch warrant for Hal Settle
(11:21):
who was investigating the serialmurders of prostitutes.
Settle, who was investigatingthe serial murders of
prostitutes.
It didn't seem to mollify himthat Elford was eventually
appointed to the task force.
And of the case with HouseSettle he said, quote basically
this traffic cop who has beengiven a white horse to ride
comes in and wants a searchwarrant to go to a suspect's
(11:44):
house.
I told him you know you needprobable cause.
What makes you think you havesomething?
And he said I know it in myheart.
My group of veteran prosecutorsand I look at each other and
roll our eyes.
I know it in my heart, turninginto no End quote.
(12:04):
Keith Cummings was eventuallyarrested and convicted in 2001
for killing two of theprostitutes.
The murders of the othersremain unsolved.
Regarding others in the statepolice chain of command, he said
Captain Dan Miller, danBonnet's supervisor, was a
(12:26):
dickhead and that in his viewBonnet was a command officer
with very little experience.
He was very good with radarguns and that's about
it.
As for declining a warrant forthe rapist, bush said the state
police thought a warrant wouldhelp them link the guy to Abby's
death.
And he said quote I wasn't tooimpressed with that approach end
(12:52):
quote and that most of the actsseem to have occurred in
Tuscola County anyway.
Barksdale said his relationshipwith Bush was irreparably
damaged when Bush refused toissue a warrant for the trucker.
He said the Flint police hadarrested him, he had confessed
to the forcible rape of 11prostitutes, either at gunpoint
(13:13):
or knife point, had served timein Colorado for previous rape
convictions and told police hewas willing to plead guilty to
felonious assault.
And Barksdale said, quote wewent to Bush for a warrant and
he flat out refused us.
He said we have no authority toaccept a plea.
He said it sounded like afailure to pay and that the
(13:35):
prostitute should sue him incivil court for the money.
Can you believe that?
End quote.
Barksdale then turned tofederal prosecutors and luckily,
one of the rapes involved a gun, and a federal prosecutor in
Bay County charged the trucker,clyde William Hare, with
(13:56):
violating federal gun laws.
In September of 2002, hare wassentenced to 327 months in
prison.
So when Bush got the call, wellinto a moving day that a
suspect was about to be takeninto custody for killing
Margaret Ebby, there was alreadya long history of animosity
(14:17):
between him, the Flint PD andthe state police.
Relations were not about to getbetter.
We'll be right back Back at theFlint Post as Larson and
Kilbourne pull out to go toGordon's.
(14:39):
Snyder made a phone call.
Some of the state cops thoughthe was rushing things to wait
for an arrest.
Snyder had a phone call.
Some of the state cops thoughthe was rushing things ought to
wait for an arrest.
Snyder had waited long enough.
It was a call he had promisedArt Ludwig that one day, one
year sooner or later, he wouldmake.
This was going to be news theywere going to have a hard time
(15:00):
keeping a lid on.
He didn't want Art Ludwig tohear about it on the news or
from some reporter on the phone.
So it was a call he was goingto make now, procedure be
damned.
In Minnesota, art was sittingin the Blue Rocker in the living
room reading the morning paper,half watching CNN, when the
(15:20):
phone rang and it was Dan Snyderwho said Art hi, dan Snyder,
this is something you have beenwaiting to hear and something I
have been waiting to tell youfor 11 years.
We got Nancy's killer.
The state police are on theirway to pick him up right now.
Art broke down on the phone andArt later recalls the following
(15:49):
quote it was like an emotionalaxe in the head.
It's the call you have beenwaiting for for 11 years.
It was so emotional.
You are reading the paper andthe last thing you expect is a
call from Detective Dan Snyder.
End quote Dan told him to sittight with it to keep it quiet
(16:12):
for an hour.
They were making an arrest, butwanted to interview the suspect
first.
Half an hour later, someone athis old station, kare, phoned.
Word was leaking somewhere.
Art did as Dan had asked andstole and said something's going
on in Flint, but I don't knowwhat it is yet Half an hour
(16:35):
later, another station call.
By then the cat was out of thebag, according to Art.
He told them the good news,then got on the phone and
started calling all the familyand friends he could think of.
Later, tough guy cop BrandonMill would say of Snyder's call
quote.
That was truly touching.
(16:58):
It was probably the mosttouching moment in Dan Snyder's
career and I was happy for him.
End quote.
Later Snyder would go throughthe list of 20,000 names he and
his investigators had compiled.
Gordon's wasn't on there.
He wasn't someone they had beentold about or heard about and
(17:21):
overlooked.
Snyder was relieved.
It meant that they have notmissed anything or screw
up.
At Genesis Hospital south ofFlint the police searched the
huge parking lot until theyfound Brenda Gordon's car.
Sergeant Rudy Gonzalez stayedwith it in case she should drive
(17:42):
off while his partner wasinside.
Coincidentally, brenda, arecords clerk, was on the phone
trying to reach Jeff.
Someone from the TV antennacompany was coming today and she
wanted to remind him to stickaround the house but for some
reason he wasn't answering.
When her boss came up to herand told her Brenda, you gotta
(18:02):
go down to.
Personnel came up to her andtold her Brenda, you got to go
down to personnel.
The way she said it, itreminded Brenda of being in
school and being called down tothe principal's
office.
Her immediate thought was mom'sbeen hurt in a car wreck.
So she went down to personneland the woman in the front desk
(18:26):
pointed to a small room of themain office area and told Brenda
that there's somebody for youin that room.
Sure, now it was bad news.
And she started thinking well,my mom must be dead, not just
hurt.
I'm not going in that room bymyself.
And she told that to the frontdesk lady and she said no, no,
you have to.
And so Brenda asked is everyoneokay?
(18:48):
I'm not going in that roomuntil I know my mom's okay.
And so she told her no, yourmom's okay, everyone's
okay.
So Brenda then come down andwent in and there was Sergeant
Alan Ugg.
He stand up, he introducedhimself and he told her that he
had a few questions and he saidhow long have you been married
(19:10):
to your husband?
And she said 12 years.
What is this all about?
He said I can't tell you.
She said well, you can't tellme what this is about.
And he said no, because we needto get your home so you can
make arrangements to take careof your kids, won't they be
coming home on the bus?
(19:30):
And before she left, she calledher kids' school and left a
message for a friend who workedin the school office to take her
kids home with her after schoolthat she will pick them up
there.
Brenda insisted on driving herown car.
The police were reluctant tolet her, but they have no choice
.
A little while later, brendapulled up to a house that had
(19:51):
seemed so normal just a fewhours ago.
The driveway was now filledwith five unmarked police SUVs.
Yellow police tape, cordoneverything off.
So she asked is Jeff here?
They say no, where is he?
I can't tell you.
She asked if she could go inthe house, and they say no, she
(20:12):
had to go to the bathroom.
Nope, she insisted.
Finally, they had no choice.
They didn't have warrants yet,so no one had been charged.
It was her house.
As she walked in, the phonerang and it was someone else
fromschool.
It turned out the friend shehad left a message with had gone
home early and wouldn't be ableto take the kids.
(20:35):
Brenda called her mom and askedher to pick them up, and she
told them don't take them home,do not come here.
Take the kids to your house,she said why, what's up?
She said don't take them home,do not come here.
Take the kids to your house,she said.
Why, what's up?
She said I don't know.
But believe me, take the kidsto your house, do not bring them
here.
Brenda came back outside andthis time determined, and she
(20:56):
started screaming where's Jeff,where's Jeff?
And finally someone said he hasbeen arrested.
And she was like whoa what for?
They said.
I can tell you right now.
Brenda was, you know, imaginingthat it probably was a speeding
ticket gone awry.
Jeff pulled over, going 10 overwith a warrant for his arrest
(21:21):
for unpaid parking tickets orsomething like that, and over
with a warrant for his arrestfor unpaid parking tickets, or
something like that.
Having sat there for hours withnothing to do but watch the
scene, brandemille had noticedwhat looked to be a car covered
by a tarp, hidden behind a bermof snow piled up from the
driveway.
At some point he went over toBrenda and asked her what was
(21:44):
under the tarp and she said oh,that's Jeff's car.
That car never moves.
He's had it since before wewere married.
She didn't tell him, but it wasthe first car Jeff have ever
financed on his own and he had afantasy of someday putting its
engine into a 1968 Chevy.
(22:05):
So he asked, can you show it tome?
And she said sure, they walkedthrough the snow.
At the side of the garage,brenda lifted an edge of the
tarp and it was a gold MonteCarlo.
On the drive back to the policestation, larson and Kilbourne
(22:31):
engaged Gordon into small talk,wanting to keep him calm.
He would respond quietly andpolitely, but with one exception
he never initiated any talk ofhis own.
He told them he had been incharge of the crew that had
installed the sprinkler systemat the state police post they
were now heading to and onething struck Larson.
(22:54):
Larson said he never asked onequestion, not what does this
case you're investigatinginvolve nothing?
It was a strange trip.
Because then he says I don'tknow whose mind was going faster
, his or mine.
I know we got the right guy andhe doesn't know.
(23:15):
Weknow.
So they let Gordon into thestation, the brass and local
cops having been banished tooffices and out of the hallway
so things wouldn't seem too outof the ordinary.
They took Gordon to a roomusually used by the polygraph
unit, hidden audio and video hadbeen set up so Gordon wouldn't
(23:36):
be aware he was being filmed andtaped.
Then they left him alone for afew minutes.
The video date, the videotapethe date in the upper left
corner says 2-08-02.
Time in the upper left cornersays 1-40 pm.
(23:57):
So Gordon sits in a chair justto the right of center screen
wearing blue jeans.
Cuffs roll up about four inches.
Gray t-shirt, blue jeans, cuffsroll up about four inches,
great T-shirt.
Screen left is a small tableand he rubs his right hand with
his left.
He rugs back and forth.
(24:18):
He looks around the room, up atthe ceiling, tilts forward,
tries to read the top page of apacket of papers Larson has left
on the table.
At 1.44 pm there's a noise of adoor opening screen
left.
Kilbourne reintroduces hispartner.
He says I'm Mike Larson and hereaches across the table to
(24:48):
shake Gordon's hand andKilbourne leans over and shakes
his hand too.
So Gordon leans back, right legcrossed over left, arms folded
across his chest.
Larson and Kilbourne are justoff screen to the left.
Larson's left hand can be seentaking notes.
So Larson starts asking notes.
(25:13):
So Larson's start asking, or Iwould say explaining to Jeff.
He says Jeff, let us explain toyou.
We're part of a task forcethat's assisting the Flint
Police Department.
We're working on a couple ofdifferent cases and your name
came up in one of our cases,specifically the assault on a
woman by the name of MargaretEbby.
You're probably wondering geez,why am I here?
And the bottom line is, at onepoint you work at the Mott
Estate.
(25:33):
I don't know what year you workthere, but your company,
buckler Sprinkler, and Gordonsaid I don't think I ever worked
there.
And so he said okay, we willget to that, but you can
obviously see why we would haveto talk to you, just like we
have to talk to probably 100other people so far.
(25:54):
This is a real shot in the darkfor us, because this is a case
that's gone unsolved for a longtime.
There is a great big pool ofpeople we have to contact and
we're just slowly working ourway through
it.
So Larsen tells him that he andKilburn are square shooters,
that while they are not requiredto at this point, for their
(26:16):
sake and for his, they want himto read his Miranda rights and
sign an acknowledgement that hehas read them.
Gordon takes the form, glancesat it, picks up the pen.
Gordon takes the form, glancesat it, picks up the pen, asks
for the date and signs and datesit.
So Larson says maybe you arespeed reader, jeff, did you in
(26:39):
fact had a chance to look itover?
And he said mm-hmm.
And Gordon confirms thespelling of his name, his date
of birth, his height, his weight, his home address, the phone
number, his employment historyat Buckner.
They go over his militaryhistory, what he did in the Navy
, and all the while Gordon rocksslightly, arms crossed,
(27:01):
speaking very face, betraying noemotion.
And so Larson asked where wereyou lucky enough to get
stationed at?
And he said Orlando forbootcamp, and then Chicago and
then back to Orlando.
What about his parents?
(27:29):
Lawrence and Shirley are alive.
They're still married.
Deborah is the oldest sibling,steve is the next oldest, then
Ben, who's dead, then Brian,then Jeff, then Greg.
All the boys work in the familybusiness.
What Gordon does is that hedoesn't give details about Dan's
death, just says it's a matterlike oh yeah, he died like.
In a very matter of fact, itwas anything but Dan, who had a
(27:55):
history of depression and heavyalcohol use, committed suicide
in the driveway of a suburbanFlint home at the age of 37 in
1997.
He had been hoping for areconciliation with his ex-wife,
but had just found out that shehad a new boyfriend.
He started an air compressor inthe back of his red Chevy work
van, the compressor normallybeing used to blow water out of
(28:18):
sprinkler lines.
He then went and sat down inthe front seat with the windows
roll up and waited to die ofcarbon monoxide poisoning.
The windows roll up and waitedto die of carbon monoxide
poisoning.
His ex-wife found his body twodays
later.
So they start asking him whatabout a first marriage?
And he said yeah, well, we gotmarried, but it wasn't the right
(28:42):
thing.
We got married right after Iwent into the Navy.
And so they asked him was she ahigh school sweetheart?
He said I guess you could callher an old sweetheart.
She got pregnant just before Igraduated from high school.
She's remarried.
I'm not sure of her lastname.
And he said what happened totheir child, a boy?
He said I'm not sure.
(29:03):
He said what's his name.
He said Jeffrey, but it'sspelled different.
I know he graduated from highschool.
He said when did you last havecontact with him?
He said 1986.
Don told him he had a differentfather, her boyfriend at the
time.
So even though she played thosemind games with you saying he
(29:23):
had a different dad, did shestick you with child support?
And he said, oh, yeah, he saidthrough high school.
He said yep, jeff is vagueabout divorce details.
He says that she came backwithout him to Flint.
They tried to reconcile in 1986, but it didn't work
out.
So then Larson asked do yourecall doing any work at the
(29:45):
Mudd estate?
And so now he says I might havebeen there once.
My brother did some installwork there, greg.
He says so you were at the MottEstate once.
He said I was there when he putan addition down.
I forget what they call thebuilding, but he put an addition
down.
To refresh his memory, larsonsurprising Jeff, pulls out a
(30:09):
sheaf of blueprints for thesprinkler system at this date,
dated 1984, drafted by Jeff'sdad.
And he said where did he work?
He said it was a littlebuilding down in a lower area, a
chicken coop or something withsome flowers around it.
(30:30):
So they asked him to the bestof your knowledge, that is the
only time you were ever at themodest state.
He said I was there one othertime for two minutes.
This fall Me and my brother,steve Brian, had left some tools
there, he said.
And the other time you werethere, do you recall when that
was?
He said I don't know, maybefour or five years ago.
(30:53):
And Larson says it's easy tounderstand not being sure unless
you're carrying around a diarywith you.
And then Larson continued andsaid Jeff, again, one of the
reasons we call you here isyou're one of the employees of
Butler, and Butler was acontractor at the modern state
(31:19):
During the time frame.
This woman wasassaulted.
As I told you earlier, we havecontacted quite a number of
people.
As I told you earlier, we havecontacted quite a number of
people.
Thanks to modern technology, wedon't have to spend a lot of
time with people.
We can do DNA analysis thatenables us to totally eliminate
somebody in a very short periodof time.
(31:40):
We don't have to take up muchof their time and it saves us a
lot of time.
We're just slowly working ourway through.
We have already worked throughall the former employees of the
modest state and now we'reworking our way through the
contractors.
God knows there are a lot ofthem.
So we got a lot of time cut outfor
(32:01):
us.
Obviously, at some point wewould like you to provide a DNA
book or swab so we can eliminateyou.
Is that something you will beinterested in providing us?
Jeff, who continues to have hisarms crossed, said I don't have
no problem with it, but I don'tknow if I should or not.
(32:21):
And so Larson said you have to.
I got to tell you we havecontacted over 100 people who
are basically in the sameposition as you, and we have had
some people who said no, thisis America.
You have a right to say no,we're not going to lay you down
on the floor and take it.
If you choose not to, that'syour decision and we will
(32:44):
respect it.
Up till now, four or fivepeople out of more than 100 have
refused to, and so they ask himso you don't want to take it?
And he said not right now.
He said okay, want to thinkabout it.
He said I want to think aboutit, want to think about it.
(33:12):
He said I want to think aboutit.
So now this is detectiveKilhorn, his question having an
edge to it, particularly sincehe's been so quiet so far
because Larson has been playingthe good cop.
He said do you ever had areason to go into one of Mudd
estate.
And Jeff said I do know there'sa sprinkler controller in the
main building, but I don't knowwhere.
And so Larson said I meanKilburn said I just want to
(33:35):
clarify.
There's no reason for you to goin the houses, right?
He said no, so much for havingan excuse ready to explain the
bloody print in Abby's bathroomwhen the time comes to bring it
up, right?
So now he said, jeff, I havementioned the sexual assault of
Margaret Evie.
Have you ever heard about thiscase?
(33:55):
This is Larson now asking.
He said I heardsomething.
So Larson pulls out a blackpiece of paper, pushes it across
the table to Gordon and askshim to diagram the modest state
the best he can from his twotrips there.
Gordon puts in the main house agreen house, mentions a garage,
(34:17):
puts in an outbuilding at thebottom of a hill at the back of
the estate, no gay house.
And Larson said is this the waythe modern state looks, to the
best of your recollection?
And Jeffrey nods his head andsaid yeah, my brother would know
more.
Greg does 90% of the work thereand Brian does the
(34:38):
rest.
So Larson said okay, jeff, youmentioned vaguely remembering
this case when I mentioned theEBI assault.
What immediately came to mindto you?
He said I didn't recallremembering the name, but I
remember reading in the paper.
Something happened there.
Any specific recollections ofwhat you read?
(35:00):
He said no.
When was the last time you readabout it?
He said not too long ago.
There was someone from Detroitor something.
He said do you remember whatyou read?
He said not too long ago therewas someone from Detroit or
something, he said.
Do you remember what you read?
He said no, something aboutthey figure out it was the same
person who did it, orsomething.
So now Kilborn asked what doyou think should happen to the
(35:21):
person responsible?
And Gordon says well, he shouldprobably go to jail.
And Gordon says well, he shouldprobably go to jail.
And Larson says well, havingbeen there on the state, jeff,
when you read about this, whatkind of person do you think
could be responsible forsomething like this?
And he shrugged and said I'mnot sure it's a good question.
(35:44):
I don't really know the detailsso I can't say what kind of
person I'm imagining not a goodperson.
And then Detective Larson sayswell, maybe a good person who
had some problems.
I mean, there is any number ofreasons in this line of work, we
(36:06):
try to avoid strictly judginganybody.
We may have a situation wherepeople have problems and
sometimes mistakes happen, andthey truly are mistakes.
And Jeffrey said so.
Larson says well, is there anyreason somebody would mention
your name as a suspect in thiscase?
And Gordon shook his head sideto side and said
no.
Larson pushed Gordon's diagramof the mod estate back in front
(36:29):
of him.
He says Jeff, I want you to goback to this diagram that you
made of your recollections ofthe mod estate.
This is a circular driveway andactually there's a small house
the mod family calls thegatehouse.
Do you have any recollection ofthat?
And Gordon said not really,I've been driven by the front of
(36:53):
it, but the cultural center.
I think I might have seen agate here or something.
He said I'm not talking about amansion, it's much smaller.
Do you remember it?
He said I never pay muchattention, so you have a
recollection of a house downhere.
He said I'm not saying thereisn't, I might have seen it.
(37:16):
Any chance, you might have goneinto that house at one time.
And Gordon shakes his head andsays no, I don't know whose
house that is.
And so Larson said well, let meask you this You're on the job,
you work outside.
Is there ever a time whennature calls and you have to
(37:37):
knock on a door and say, hey,can I use the bathroom?
And Gordon says usually we usethe trucks or go behind a tree
or something.
So do you recall any instances,in the two times you were at
the modest state, that you mayhave gone into the main house or
this smaller house to use thefacilities?
(38:00):
He said yeah.
He said it was so long ago.
I don't remember everything Idid when I was
there.
So Kilbourne asked did you everhear anything personally about
Margaret Ebby, what kind of awoman she was?
He said no, I think she was ateacher or something.
So they asked him if he evertook any classes at UM Flint,
(38:26):
and he said yes.
The summer after high school,college prep stopped to see if
he was up to college.
So they asked him did he everhad her as a teacher?
And he said not sure.
Ever take music classes?
He said no.
So they asked him why did hequit school?
And so he said when I found outmy girlfriend was pregnant, we
(38:50):
would be broken up for some time.
I was just looking for a way toget away, and that's when I
joined theNavy.
So Larson asked you said Gregdid 90% of the work at the
modest state.
Did Greg ever mention MargaretEby to you?
Mentioned Margaret Ebby to you?
(39:13):
The reason I say this, jeff, isapparently Mrs Ebby has some
peculiar activities.
She apparently used to go backof this gatehouse and sunbathe
nude, and the other thing is shedidn't have any curtains and
most of the windows and shewould often walk around the
house nude.
This information was obtainedin conversations we had with
employees on the grounds.
Did your brother ever mentionany of that to you?
(39:36):
He saidno.
So Larson continues and saysJeff, can you give us a couple
of minutes?
Can you give us a couple ofminutes?
We got a document we're waitingon and I want you to see if
it's here.
Can I get you a glass of water,a cup of coffee while we're
waiting?
And he said maybe a glass ofwater.
(39:58):
So Larson gets in the water andthey get up and
leave.
They go to the video monitorand look at him.
His face seems to be relaxed,but his body, the guy, looks as
if he's going to come out of hisskin.
He leans forward, he leans back.
He looks skyward, looks aroundthe room.
(40:21):
Hands are clasped on, clasps,clasps on, clasps Resumes
rocking.
Right hand rubs vigorously onright knee.
He continues rocking back andforth.
Left hand rubs the left thigh.
Then he was just basically alittle squirming.
(40:46):
So this is around 2.15 pm.
They open the door and you cansee it on the video screen.
Left Cops are back and fornearly all the next hour Gordon
has his arms crossed one leg,then the other and crossed over
the opposite knee.
He continues to walk back andforth and so Larson says we'll
(41:12):
try not to keep you here toomuch longer.
But we still have somequestions for
you.
Jeff, I would like you toclarify for us your military
record.
For some reason you kind ofglaze over everything that
happened in your military career.
I got to tell you, we got someidea of what happened to you and
(41:34):
all he said was mm-hmm.
So they said I can understandand appreciate that that could
be a sensitive subject to youand it sounds like for the
trouble you got in you obviouslypaid your dues.
So Larson tells them it wasn'tthe 4th of 1981 that he joined
the Navy, butlater.
And he said he asked him whenhe said well, it was February or
(41:59):
March.
It was a crazy time.
Like I said, I was trying toget away from a kid, just that
she was pregnant and trying tomake me think it was mine.
And he said so, was she apromiscuous person?
I said no, not really.
But we had been broken up forthree or four months when she
came to me and said that she waspregnant.
(42:19):
So anyone would question thatDid you ever have a test done?
He said no, so that's why youwent into the military to escape
that.
He said basically I told her Ididn't think it was mine.
I didn't think that was rightbecause for her to come to me
three or four months later andsay it was
mine.
So he says that he joined theNavy under the buddy program
(42:42):
with Joe Contreras, a friendfrom high school.
They went to boot camp inFlorida together.
Then they went their separateways.
Gordon went to Chicago foradvanced training as an
electrician, then to Orlando forthe nuclear power school, and
Jeff found out in boot camp thathe could run but he couldn't
(43:03):
hide and he said she came down,found me in boot camp.
Finally I agreed to marry her.
It was the right thing to doso?
Larson says the nuclear school.
How long did that training last?
And he said it was supposed tolast into some trouble and left
(43:28):
the Navy.
And he said, as I mentioned toyou before, jeff, good people
get in trouble in our work.
There is.
There isn't anything thatsurprises us.
We're not judgmental.
Different people have differentwants and desires.
What drove you to get into sometrouble in Orlando?
(43:49):
And he said I stole some thingsI shouldn't have.
He said what in particular?
He said personal stuffbelonging to.
He said other people.
He said men, women, children.
He said women.
What in particular?
Was it jewelry, somethingvaluable Clothing?
(44:09):
He said clothing, anything else?
He saidno.
Larson said well, the originalcharge we saw said burglary.
In my mind, burglary isforcibly entering someone's home
and taking something.
Is that what you did?
He said I climbed in through awindow and stole a couple of
(44:32):
things.
He said did you ever doanything like that in Michigan
prior to getting caught inOrlando?
He said no, that was the firsttime I thought about breaking
into someone's house, he said,but you thought about women's
clothing.
When did that first surface foryou?
He said it seems like most ofmy life.
(44:53):
He said okay, as I said we'renot judgmental.
To me it doesn't matter ifyou're heterosexual, if you're
gay, if you like cats or dogs orwomen's clothing.
Basically it doesn't matter.
We all have our own personaldesires.
Was it in high school when youhad your first attraction to
(45:13):
women's clothing?
He said more like junior high.
He said do you have troublegetting girlfriends?
He said not really.
He said were you sexuallyactive?
He said not a lot.
So he said do you experiencesexual intercourse in high
school?
He said not really until I waswith Dawn.
He said was she the first time?
(45:35):
And he paused for a moment andthen he said as far as I can
remember, he said did you startwith your mother's clothing?
He said right Later, in anotherinterview, later in the future,
he would have said that hestarted cross-dressing when he
was five yearsold.
(45:56):
So they continue and says didthat progress to the point
perhaps where you went over to aneighbor's house, perhaps
entering through an unlockeddoor or window, taking clothes
hanging from a line?
And he said not really.
I think I might have got acouple of things from my
friend's parents, you know, notbreaking in because I was
(46:19):
already there.
Is there any particular item ofclothing you're particularly
fond of?
He said pantyhose, I guess.
He said do you still have somefetish desires to this day?
He said yeah, I have seen apsychiatrist for it after I got
back toMichigan.
He said after you served timein prison?
(46:39):
He said mm-hmm.
He said did you spend all 22months of your time in the same
facility in Northern Florida?
And he said yes, what was thatlike for you?
How were you treated?
He said okay, I guess it wasjust a place to stay.
You didn't get no help oranything.
So Larson asked did you feelyou could have used some help?
(47:03):
He said yeah, I could have usedsome help.
I knew that wanting thosethings was wrong.
And then he said you never.
Do you ever?
Did you have the birds and thebees?
Talk with your dad?
He said no, definitely not withmy dad.
(47:26):
He said what about your mother?
He said I must not have becauseI got a girl pregnant.
He said was there a dominantparent in the house?
He said well, my mom raised thekids, but my dad was the
dominant one.
If you say this, that's the wayit was.
And then Larson asked him justgoing over to your house it's
(47:48):
obvious you're a clean andmeticulous person.
That probably is a caveat fromthe way your mother brought you
up.
He said probably Q-Bone hasbeen quiet this second session
while Larson was doing all thequestions and continued asking
(48:08):
the questions and said Greg, isthere anything you want to ask
aboutOrlando?
And Kilburn suddenly startstalking and says quite frankly,
you have been very cordial to ussince you have been here.
Apparently, you skipped overthat stuff the first time you
told us about it.
Were you simply embarrassed orwere you hoping we didn't know
(48:31):
about it?
And he said well, it's notsomething you're proud of.
He said is there anything else?
Be honest, is there anythingelse you did not tell us,
especially about that timeperiod that you think we should
know?
He said well, there were two orthree things that got me in
(48:52):
jail.
So what were the others?
He said one is I did try topull a slip off one
lady.
So where did that occur?
He said some apartments.
It seemed a way to getsomething else.
So was there anything else ofthat nature?
So there was one where I way toget something else.
So was there anything else ofthat nature?
So there was one where I triedto get something.
I tried to break in anotherplace but didn't get in Any
(49:17):
other incidents in Florida.
He said well, there was one inthe base that got me in trouble.
It was the same thing.
I tried to pull a slip off agirl.
Were you successful?
I said no, it'll happen righttogether.
The one I broke into was whenwe were in the trailer park and
it was the manager of thetrailer park.
He must have turned my name in.
(49:37):
It was his daughter.
His daughter was like 12 orsomething and Kilburn said you
were married.
That can't be a good thing foryour marriage.
Kieran said you were married.
That can't be a good thing foryour marriage.
He said right, that's why shecame back to Michigan.
He said your sentence wassupposed to be four and a half
years.
You got out early.
Do you know why?
He said if you go to classesand stuff, you get out
(50:00):
early?
Did you hurt any of the womenor was it strictly just trying
to take articles of clothing?
The women or was it strictlyjust trying to take articles of
clothing?
He said just take articles ofclothes.
Did the women get accidentallyinjured?
I'm trying to think how youwould get a slip off.
He said I knocked them down,but I don't think they really
got hurt.
One was in a group of peopleand I didn't really get anywhere
(50:24):
, it was just an attempt.
The other one, she fell down.
I didn't really push her down,she must have stepped back and
fell.
Do you have an attorney?
He said I had one.
I don't think I had a good one.
And he said do you think yoursentence was out of line?
He said it was out of linecompared to some people who were
(50:47):
there.
He said did that make youbitter toward the criminal
justice system?
He said no, I just wish theywould have had something there.
They tried to have a programbecause there were more people
like me there, but it just neverwas much.
They couldn't get funding forit.
When I came home I went to apsychiatrist on my own and
(51:11):
Kilborn asked when you got outof prison, do you immediately
return to Michigan or do youwork in Florida?
And he said they took me to theairport.
So what about this girl in thetrailer?
He said I met her, seen her afew times, pretty good looking.
I actually never planned onbreaking in there, but I was mad
(51:34):
at the manager so I thought Iwould get.
Even Someone had stolen a canoeand I had no reason to steal a
canoe, but he had come over andaccused me of stealing it, so I
was mad at him.
Do you feel any anger at thesystem as a whole?
He said I wish I would havegotten more counseling.
Yeah, but I'm not mad atanyone.
(51:55):
So Larson asked were you atwhat in your life right now?
Do you feel as if you could usesome counseling?
He said I still get some urgesand stuff.
I'm not perfect.
He said well, none of us arecompared to the alcoholic.
A guy with a fetish is like apebble compared to a boulder.
(52:18):
The drunk driving his car couldpotentially kill someone.
And Gordon stops rocking whenhe said that and stares at
Larson.
And Larson continues and saysdo you have any particular
issues with women?
Do you have a hard timerelating to women?
He said not really.
(52:40):
He said do you get mad realeasy at women?
He's like you get mad real easyat women?
He's like no, and he decided tohit a woman.
No, were you teased in school?
He said well, we were poor, sowore poor people's clothes.
I got teased about that and Ihad a bad complexion and stuff.
Is there any fantasies that youhave in regard to women and
(53:03):
stealing the clothing that youstill feel inside of you?
And he said it's alwaysprobably going to be there.
Yeah, so is there anythingspecific like bondage?
Where would you tie someone up?
He said, nah, sadistic, wheresomeone's tortured or whipped
(53:28):
anything of that nature.
And he shakes his head side toside and Kibron says when you
got back to Michigan, you stillhad those desires.
Were there any similarincidents to those down in
Florida?
Were there any similarincidents to those down in
Florida?
He said, since I've been backno, not really.
(53:49):
It's been a couple of years nowbut I did get in a little
trouble.
In Clio I gotprobation.
I did try to look up a girl'sskirt.
I didn't try to take anything,I was just looking.
The girl was wearing a shortskirt and she she bent over and
I just you know.
He said what led up to it.
(54:14):
He said I was there to shop.
My wife's birthday or someholiday was coming up.
I was looking to get somethingfor my wife and I seen her there
and I don't know why I did it.
I've never done that before.
She had a short black skirt on.
I remember she was good looking, but I can't describe her.
So Larson says so that's theonly thing you can recall
happening to you in Michigan.
He said not since I seen thepsychiatrist.
(54:36):
He said I had to learn tocontrol it
myself.
I still get the desires forwomen things.
It's usually my wife's things.
He said do you wear her clothes?
He said I have a couple oftimes.
He said is she aware of yourfetish?
He said yeah, she kind of knows.
He said is it okay with her?
He said okay, I don't know.
(54:57):
Okay, but she would prefer Ididn't have any thoughts like
that at all.
He said does that cause anissue with your wife?
He said not really, because Idon't do it much
anymore.
So Kilbourne asked you have apretty good marriage other than
that?
He said yes.
He said do you ever hit yourwife?
(55:19):
He said do I ever hit her?
No, ever had any police contactof a domestic nature?
He said no, sounds like that.
You have a good marriage.
And he says mm-hmm and henods.
So now Larson asks him Jeff,other than your arrest in
Florida, what's the worst thingthat ever happened to you that
(55:44):
you regret?
Larson?
At this point he's thinkingabout Abby and Ludwig, hoping
that may have Gordon ready toconfess.
But instead Gordon says Iremember one time I was upset I
didn't get a job in the shopdown in Detroit Where's the
Chrysler plant?
Not Detroit, but down theresomewhere.
(56:07):
It was skill trades.
He said so why did you chooseDetroit?
He said I didn't choose Detroit, I was on unemployment.
And they did it.
Everything was done here, allthe skills tests.
So then I passed that and wentdown, not to Detroit but to
wherever their main facility is.
So I went down and did somemore testing.
(56:27):
He said anything else you mightregret?
He said no, mostly it's beenkind of blessed.
He said well, we all have beenkind of disappointed in
ourselves because we didn't meetour
expectations.
Anything else in your life thatsticks out for you?
Do you ever spend any time downin Southeast Michigan?
(56:48):
And he said not really.
He said not really means oncein a while.
He said I flew out of theairport once.
He said when was that?
He said I don't remember whatyear my wife and I went through
the company flew to Vegas onetime and to Cancun, costa Rica,
once.
It was all with my wife.
Oh, and I went to Florida once,me, my wife and my kids.
(57:12):
So four times you have flownout of Metro Airport in Detroit?
He said yes, ever spend thenight in any of the hotels down
there?
He said we did once Rememberwhere you stay.
He said no, I remember theplanes flew over the top of us,
me and my wife and kids, aboutfour years
ago.
So Larson asked ever been tothe Romulus Hilton?
(57:39):
And there was a pause and hisleft eyebrow races and that's
about it.
Gordon gives nothing away.
And then he says Hilton.
I don't think so.
I'm sure we could never affordto stay at the Hilton.
One of the trips we stayedsomeplace it was in the Hilton.
(58:02):
It was the cheapest place wecould find Ever been in the
Hilton.
It was the cheapest place wecould find Ever been in the
Hilton at any time.
He said not that I know of,probably like a Holiday Inn,
something likethat.
He said well, from reading thenewspaper accounts of what
happened to Margaret Abby andthe woman in Detroit, what do
you remember?
He said I just remember thatthey were killed or something,
(58:25):
and it was by the same person orsomething.
I don't know if I actually readit.
It was on TV.
I might have read some of it, Idon't read too
much.
And Larson asked did theydescribe how these women were
killed?
There was a long, long pause.
His arms are crossed, his leftleg over right knee.
(58:46):
They're rocking pauses too.
And then he says probably did,but I wasn't paying much
attention.
Did he mention a sexualassault?
To both there was a long pauseand he said it might have.
Just that he did it, I didn'tpay that much attention to it.
He said are you an avid TVwatcher?
(59:08):
He said not a whole lot.
He said what are your favoritechannels?
He said we don't get too manychannels.
He said you don't get cable.
He said just have an antenna.
Usually we like to comedies.
That's all I have time for, ifI have time to watch them.
And Larson says when was thelast time you were down in the
(59:34):
area of Metropolitan Airport?
He said the airport.
This fall we drove by anairport, don't know which
one.
And Larson asks are there anyother incidents that might have
happened?
And he shakes his head and sayno.
He said reported or unreported.
He's like no, any otherincidents.
(59:54):
He said no, I'm trying to keepmyself clean.
And then Larson paused for alittle bit and then he says
okay.
And Larson turns to Kilbourneand you can see him turn on
(01:00:21):
screen, but you can see hishands rotating to the right
holding the papers and you canalmost picture his body half
rising from the chair.
And he said Greg, you gotanything and if Greg doesn't,
then that will be done.
And Greg does and says didthese problems ever escalate
beyond theft?
(01:00:41):
And Gordon shakes his head andsay no, so just use to take him
and try them on and stuff.
And there's a long pause.
So now Greg Kilburn asks how doyou feel about being here?
You feel good about it.
Sounds like you're kind ofcleansing your soul here.
(01:01:03):
Mike and I are both prettydecent guys.
You feel okay about this.
And Gordon shrugs and says Idon't like to talk about my
problems, problems I couldprobably be having.
He said there's a long pauseand Gordon takes a big gulp of
water.
Kilburn asks anything else?
(01:01:24):
We'll try to get you out ofhere in a timely basis if
possible, but we need to go alittle further here, get a
little more information so we'llget through this situation here
.
Anything else you need, likewater, or are you all set?
He said I'm all set.
How long do you think this willtake.
(01:01:46):
I know my wife wants to go outtonight and Kilburn said I'm not
sure.
She's obviously been contactedand if you're concerned about
your kids, she was notified.
That situation has beenresolved.
He said we have plans to go outI think it was tonight and he
started rocking again with hisarm crossed.
He said we'll give you a fewminutes to relax, we'll be back
(01:02:09):
and go from there.
So he and Larson get up, walkout of the room and this time
they let Jeffrey stew for 12minutes and he sighs, he leans
back, he stares at the ceiling,he rubs his hands, he rubs and
rubs his hand and rubs and it's3.43
(01:02:32):
pm.
So now they return and Kilburnsays you have been very patient,
we appreciate that we haven'treally talked about your cars.
What kind of cars do you liketo drive?
Are you a car guy?
He said not really no.
He said what kind of cars doyou own?
He said an old convertible, a1964 Dutch Dart, and a van, a
(01:02:57):
brown conversion van.
And I got one that's rottingaway in Monte Carlo.
He said that's rotting away inMonte Carlo.
He said when did you get thatvehicle?
He said I got it about 87, 88.
I drove it until a few yearsago.
I still drive it once in awhile.
He said what year was it?
He said it's an 82.
(01:03:18):
It's under a cover.
He said are you all straightwith your water?
And he nodsyes.
And then Larson says Jeff, upto this point I think we got
through some issues.
You were not being totallyhonest with us, but I think we
worked through that.
We're going to be totallyhonest with you.
We have given you a chance toshare with us some events that
(01:03:43):
have happened in your life.
It's time for us to share somethings with
you.
And when Larsen says this, he'ssaying it louder, more
forcefully than he said anythingso far.
He pauses, there's a long pause.
He reaches down to some papersin front of him and shuffles
(01:04:05):
through them.
Gordon is watching himshuffling, his arms continue to
be crossed, slightly rocking,and he says if I can find it,
I'll be happy to share it.
In the meantime, do you haveany questions for us?
I don't want this to be aone-sided conversation.
(01:04:26):
Feel free, there's nothing wehave to hide.
And Jeff said no, as I saidearlier, I wonder how long this
is going to take.
We're supposed to go outtonight,
said.
Well, jeff Larson looks like hefound the paper he was looking
for, puts it out, hands itacross the table to Gordon, said
I want you to take a look atthis.
Found the paper he was lookingfor, puts it out, hands it
(01:04:47):
across the table to Gordon.
He said I want you to take alook at this.
Gordon takes a hold of it,stares at it you can see it on
screen, but it is on FBIletterhead and he says I'm not
sure what this is.
And Larson says flip it over.
(01:05:08):
What does it say?
That sentence near the top,gordon begins reading Two latent
fingerprints of value appear inQ1 and
Q2.
Two negatives One latentfingerprint appearing in Q2.
A negative source, notindicated, has been identified,
apparently as me.
(01:05:29):
What it had gone on to say,which he didn't read, was has
been identified as a fingerprintof Jeffrey Wayne Gorton, fbi
number 54834CA3.
He said is that your name?
And he said uh-huh.
(01:05:49):
And Larson says Jeff, you toldus things that have troubled you
and it's very evident to usthat you would like to get some
help.
You're the only one who cananswer
this.
The problem with the underwearescalated and ultimately
resulted in the assault onMargaret Abbey.
(01:06:10):
Gordon shakes his head and saysI don't think so.
And Larson says I absolutelypositively know you did.
Do you know where the printcame from?
He's saying no, he said theupstairs bathroom of a house you
said you had never been in.
There was no question.
(01:06:32):
You're the person who'sresponsible.
The question is why, and whatcan we do for you?
And he said there's no whybecause I didn't do it.
Larson says you did.
You can continue to say youdidn't do it.
(01:06:54):
I'll continue to say you did itbecause I absolutely positively
know you did.
I'm not here to say you're abad person, because I don't
think you are.
I think you have some issues inyour life and some problems and
there were many times peoplecould have helped you and didn't
.
Wouldn't you agree?
(01:07:14):
And he said I could have usedsome help, yeah, but not with
this.
And Larson says the question iswhy did it happen, jeff?
And Kilburn then says we needto go to the prosecutor with a
reason.
If we're going to be able tohelp you, we can help you.
(01:07:38):
If you don't help us.
And he said well, I just needto see an attorney now because I
know I didn't do anything.
Larson says if we're going toget you help, this is your
opportunity.
This and he was waving the FBIreport says it's not the final
(01:08:01):
report.
Okay, the DNA analysis from youcame back today and it's a
perfect match.
We're going to afford you theopportunity to explain
this.
Your family is out there in thelobby now and I got to go out
and talk to your wife.
(01:08:21):
I'm not going to give her allthe details and then I gotta go
talk to your parents and yourbrothers and your sister.
I'm not here to judge you.
This isn't the case like this.
We have work on, but I havedone enough of them to know
there is a reason why thingshappen.
I know I'm sitting here talkingto a guy who has cried out for
(01:08:45):
help.
The prosecutor already has thisevidence the fingerprint, the
DNA analysis.
There is no one else with thatDNA on the face of the earth.
I surely would like to walk outthere to your family and
(01:09:05):
explain it to them that you wereremorseful and wanted to take
responsibility and set anexample to your wife and, more
important, to yourchildren.
And Gordon says well, I didn'tdo anything.
So well, you can deny it anddeny it and deny it, but we know
you did it.
This isn't a matter of geez.
He may have done it.
This is absolutely beyond ashadow of doubt, 100% positive.
(01:09:32):
You did it.
Were you expecting this?
It's been almost 16 years.
Were you looking over yourshoulder for us?
He said I don't know whatyou're talking about.
I want to talk to my lawyer.
I said I don't know what you'retalking about.
I want to talk to my lawyer.
I saidokay.
And Kilburn said well, at thispoint we have to tell you you're
(01:09:54):
under arrest.
Larson says you're under arrestfor two counts of homicide.
Just sit tight, I'll be rightback.
And Larson leaves, kilburnremains.
And Larson leaves, kilbourneremains.
Then, larson, this is like at3.57 pm.
So two minutes later Larsonreturns and says stand up, jeff,
(01:10:16):
come here.
Gordon stands and walks towardthe camera, turns screen left
and walks off screen.
The sound of handcuffs sneakingshut can be heard In, also off
camera.
Larson says this interview isover.
Anything you want me to say toyour wife?
Any messages?
He said not now.
(01:10:37):
The door opens, they leave, itsnaps shut.
The camera continues to focuson Gordon's empty chair and
across town the press conferenceends sorry, 70th birthday Later
(01:11:06):
, larson would muse that allthese years the Flint PD was
looking for a monster and theyshould have been looking for the
guy next door.
Thank you for listening to theMurder Book.
Have a great week.
Welcome to the Murder Book.
I'm your host, kiara, and thisis part 13 of Jeffrey Gordon's
Deadly Secret.
Let's begin.
Genesee County ProsecutorArthur Bush leaned back in his
big black chair late Fridaymorning and he thought that this
(00:25):
is going to be a long day.
Little did he know just howlong the day would be or how
much he would earn his Saturdayand Sunday.
It was a work day, but insteadof suit and tie he was dressed
in blue jeans and hiking bootsand a black t-shirt.
The historic Stately Courthousein downtown Flint was
(00:47):
undergoing a major renovationand today was moving day for his
staff across the street totemporary offices in a small,
low-slung office building.
He had been nursing a bad backand had put off the move as long
as possible, but he was runningout of time.
He had to clear out to makeroom for the contractors and he
(01:10):
had been carrying boxes to themoving trucks and was taking a
short break for a meeting, heand Randy Petridis, who was the
chief of the trial division, andthey have a schedule with Flint
police and senior staff todiscuss a felony case.
But then his cell phone rangBush's cell phone.
(01:31):
He took the call, put down thephone and he asked the police to
leave.
It was Captain Dan Miller ofthe Michigan State Police
calling to let him know therehad been a DNA match on the Ebi
case, that they were about topick up a local guy for Ebi's
murder after some undercoversurveillance work and they would
(01:55):
be coming over for search andarrest warrants popped his
spleen.
The biggest case in Flint indecades was about to become the
biggest arrest and prosecutionof his career and they were
letting him know now.
Clearly they have intentionallykept him out of the loop.
(02:17):
He would be kept in thefreaking dark with the mushrooms
while it all went down.
That was to him an intolerablelack of etiquette, courtesy and
even common sense and just thecourtesy of a call the night
before and he could have alertedhis staff to forgo the casual
(02:38):
clothes, forget about moving.
So now he was steaming and heeven said the following quote I
(03:04):
was pissed they did it onpurpose to minimize my
involvement because we had hadour run-ins over the years.
I was not involved or consultedin this hosting operation.
End quote Norman Gordon'sinterview.
Wouldn't it have made sense toask the prosecutor for advice on
questions that might elicit thekind of answers they could use
in court, and he even say thatit's a team play.
But the state police don't playa team game, they're lone
rangers.
Bonnet, though, says there wasa good reason to keep him in the
(03:29):
dark, that both the Flint PDand the prosecutor's office were
notorious for leaks.
And he would say quote, youwill go in for a search warrant.
And when you went to serve ityou didn't know if they were
going to greet you with milk andcookies.
You never knew where the leakswere coming from.
End quote Snyder.
(03:52):
Detective Snyder says quote, inWayne County we would have got
the warrants to the prosecutorthe night before, but the state
police wouldn't consider faxingthem to Bush the night before
because they didn't trust him orhis office.
Butler Sprinkler was a businessand you never know if Gorton's
(04:12):
dad was a campaign contributorand might get a call tipping him
off.
While Gorton was beinginterviewed by Kilbourne and
Larson, other state police andRomulus cops drove downtown to
meet with Bush.
They thought getting warrantswould be a slam dunk, a mere
formality.
They thought wrong.
(04:33):
Bush wasn't the only one who wasgoing to be in for a long day.
Bush was a liberal Democrat,grew up three blocks from the
site of the historic Flintsit-down strikes of the 1930s
which gave birth to the UnitedAuto Workers.
And as a boy he delivered theFlint Journal to Fisher Body
(04:56):
Plant no 1 and hung out at thenearby Union Hall where he
learned most of his politicsUnion Hall, where he learned
most of his politics.
He has outlined a book he hopesto find a publisher for, with
the working title Declaring Waron Everything, about how, in his
words, 10 years of right-wingjustice had filled our prisons,
(05:20):
how ill-served as a society weare by the military analogies
politicians used to declare waron terrorism, war on drugs, and
how we need to stop warehousingcriminals and start
rehabilitating them.
He would say there is nodelivery system for
rehabilitation.
(05:41):
Do we believe only inretribution for rehabilitation?
Do we believe only inretribution?
Bush has several big scenes inMichael Moore's Bowling for
Columbine bemoaning, asbefitting a Michael Moore movie,
racism and its effect on thepoor of Flint.
What he didn't tell Moore'saudience is what he brags about
(06:01):
to visitors to his office thathe has almost single-handedly
taken on the gangs in Flintgetting their butts off the
streets and into prisons, thegangs, of course, being made up
generally of the same poorminority he accuses the system
of warehousing.
Bush is eloquent, quotable andloves the limelight.
(06:23):
He showed all three qualitiesin 2000 when the national media
descended on Flint after asix-year-old first grader her
name was Kayla Rowland wasintentionally shot and killed by
a classmate who had found a .32caliber semi-automatic in his
house and brought it to school.
His mom was at work as part ofthe state's work to collect
(06:47):
welfare laws and a 19-year-oldstaying at her house had
neglected to hide or unload theweapon.
The story touched any number ofmedia hot buttons, and Bush's
too.
For days, the camera crewslined up in a row outside the
school filing their reports.
(07:07):
Bush would walk the line doingone stand-up after another.
As much as he favored thenational attention, he knew when
and how to play a local gamealso.
One day he was just about to doa lengthy interview for a local
TV news show when a nationalproducer pulled him aside and
asked him if they could grab himnow.
(07:29):
And he said no, you can'tbecause I'm busy.
And the producer said but it'sKatie Couric.
And he said to the producer butI don't get elected in
Manhattan, but I don't getelected in
Manhattan.
April of 2003 was aninteresting month for Bush, to
(07:49):
say the least.
He started it out in Hollywoodaccompanying Moore to a round of
Oscar bashes and he finished itin Washington arguing before
the Supreme Court that aconviction years earlier in a
murder case in Genesee Countydid not amount to double
jeopardy, even though the judgehad originally decided that the
(08:10):
facts in the case did not marrya charge of premeditation, then
later reversed himself.
The Oscar voters agreed withhis friend more and the Supreme
Court later unanimously agreedwith him.
And the Supreme Court laterunanimously agreed with him.
Fresh back from Hollywood andabout to leave for Washington
for his appearance before theSupreme Court, bush was blunt
(08:31):
and shot from the tip.
When interviewed about theevents on the day Gordon was
picked up, he admitted he wasangry from the start about a
state police task force beingestablished in Flint and he
admitted he didn't have much usein general for the cops who ran
it.
Bush had applied for funding toset up his own cold case squad.
(08:51):
When word came that the statepolice would be running one
instead and that no funds wouldbe forthcoming for his staff, he
said the decision was made bythen-Mich Michigan Governor John
Engler, something state policepress dismissed as
preposterous.
Bush said he met at one of hisfavorite spots in Flint, the
(09:14):
Sunrise County Island.
He said quote I like to hide inthe corner there and people
don't know my business Todiscuss, end quote.
And you know he wanted to gothere to discuss a cold case
squad with his chiefinvestigator, gary Elford, who
had run the Ebi crime scene andlater joined Bush's staff after
(09:35):
retiring from the Flynn PD.
So Bush said quote.
I had Gary meet me there tohave coffee and I told him I
wanted to work on the Abby case.
It bugged me.
We couldn't solve it after allthose years.
I thought DNA had gotten cheapenough we could afford to run
tests without a lot of time andexpense.
(09:56):
End quote.
Bush said he even had meetingswith King and former members of
the Flint PD to learn about thecase and that he was planning to
take a hands-on approach tointerviewing their chief suspect
, charles Stone, who wasreported to be living in
Maryland.
And he said well, I wasplanning a trip to Maryland with
(10:17):
gold gloves in hand.
I was going to show up thereall these years later and have a
chat withhim.
But within a couple of days ofmeeting with Gary the state
police came in.
Maybe my paranoia is runningwild.
But my idea wasn't popular withthe Engler administration
because they didn't want ademocratic prosecutor to get the
(10:38):
kind of publicity this thingwould develop.
As soon as they figure out whatI was up to, they sent in 10
state police officers with thesum total of one homicide
investigation between them.
I was pretty upset with ChiefBarksdale that he agreed to it
(10:59):
without consulting me and that'shis quote
directly.
The state police and Bush hadclashed several times during the
cold case investigations.
Once when he refused to issue awarrant to arrest a truck
driver and the serial raping ofprostitutes.
Another when he refused asearch warrant for Hal Settle
(11:21):
who was investigating the serialmurders of prostitutes.
Settle, who was investigatingthe serial murders of
prostitutes.
It didn't seem to mollify himthat Elford was eventually
appointed to the task force.
And of the case with HouseSettle he said, quote basically
this traffic cop who has beengiven a white horse to ride
comes in and wants a searchwarrant to go to a suspect's
(11:44):
house.
I told him you know you needprobable cause.
What makes you think you havesomething?
And he said I know it in myheart.
My group of veteran prosecutorsand I look at each other and
roll our eyes.
I know it in my heart, turninginto no End quote.
(12:04):
Keith Cummings was eventuallyarrested and convicted in 2001
for killing two of theprostitutes.
The murders of the othersremain unsolved.
Regarding others in the statepolice chain of command, he said
Captain Dan Miller, danBonnet's supervisor, was a
(12:26):
dickhead and that in his viewBonnet was a command officer
with very little experience.
He was very good with radarguns and that's about
it.
As for declining a warrant forthe rapist, bush said the state
police thought a warrant wouldhelp them link the guy to Abby's
death.
And he said quote I wasn't tooimpressed with that approach end
(12:52):
quote and that most of the actsseem to have occurred in
Tuscola County anyway.
Barksdale said his relationshipwith Bush was irreparably
damaged when Bush refused toissue a warrant for the trucker.
He said the Flint police hadarrested him, he had confessed
to the forcible rape of 11prostitutes, either at gunpoint
(13:13):
or knife point, had served timein Colorado for previous rape
convictions and told police hewas willing to plead guilty to
felonious assault.
And Barksdale said, quote wewent to Bush for a warrant and
he flat out refused us.
He said we have no authority toaccept a plea.
He said it sounded like afailure to pay and that the
(13:35):
prostitute should sue him incivil court for the money.
Can you believe that?
End quote.
Barksdale then turned tofederal prosecutors and luckily,
one of the rapes involved a gun, and a federal prosecutor in
Bay County charged the trucker,clyde William Hare, with
(13:56):
violating federal gun laws.
In September of 2002, hare wassentenced to 327 months in
prison.
So when Bush got the call, wellinto a moving day that a
suspect was about to be takeninto custody for killing
Margaret Ebby, there was alreadya long history of animosity
(14:17):
between him, the Flint PD andthe state police.
Relations were not about to getbetter.
We'll be right back Back at theFlint Post as Larson and
Kilbourne pull out to go toGordon's.
(14:39):
Snyder made a phone call.
Some of the state cops thoughthe was rushing things to wait
for an arrest.
Snyder had a phone call.
Some of the state cops thoughthe was rushing things ought to
wait for an arrest.
Snyder had waited long enough.
It was a call he had promisedArt Ludwig that one day, one
year sooner or later, he wouldmake.
This was going to be news theywere going to have a hard time
(15:00):
keeping a lid on.
He didn't want Art Ludwig tohear about it on the news or
from some reporter on the phone.
So it was a call he was goingto make now, procedure be
damned.
In Minnesota, art was sittingin the Blue Rocker in the living
room reading the morning paper,half watching CNN, when the
(15:20):
phone rang and it was Dan Snyderwho said Art hi, dan Snyder,
this is something you have beenwaiting to hear and something I
have been waiting to tell youfor 11 years.
We got Nancy's killer.
The state police are on theirway to pick him up right now.
Art broke down on the phone andArt later recalls the following
(15:49):
quote it was like an emotionalaxe in the head.
It's the call you have beenwaiting for for 11 years.
It was so emotional.
You are reading the paper andthe last thing you expect is a
call from Detective Dan Snyder.
End quote Dan told him to sittight with it to keep it quiet
(16:12):
for an hour.
They were making an arrest, butwanted to interview the suspect
first.
Half an hour later, someone athis old station, kare, phoned.
Word was leaking somewhere.
Art did as Dan had asked andstole and said something's going
on in Flint, but I don't knowwhat it is yet Half an hour
(16:35):
later, another station call.
By then the cat was out of thebag, according to Art.
He told them the good news,then got on the phone and
started calling all the familyand friends he could think of.
Later, tough guy cop BrandonMill would say of Snyder's call
quote.
That was truly touching.
(16:58):
It was probably the mosttouching moment in Dan Snyder's
career and I was happy for him.
End quote.
Later Snyder would go throughthe list of 20,000 names he and
his investigators had compiled.
Gordon's wasn't on there.
He wasn't someone they had beentold about or heard about and
(17:21):
overlooked.
Snyder was relieved.
It meant that they have notmissed anything or screw
up.
At Genesis Hospital south ofFlint the police searched the
huge parking lot until theyfound Brenda Gordon's car.
Sergeant Rudy Gonzalez stayedwith it in case she should drive
(17:42):
off while his partner wasinside.
Coincidentally, brenda, arecords clerk, was on the phone
trying to reach Jeff.
Someone from the TV antennacompany was coming today and she
wanted to remind him to stickaround the house but for some
reason he wasn't answering.
When her boss came up to herand told her Brenda, you gotta
(18:02):
go down to.
Personnel came up to her andtold her Brenda, you got to go
down to personnel.
The way she said it, itreminded Brenda of being in
school and being called down tothe principal's
office.
Her immediate thought was mom'sbeen hurt in a car wreck.
So she went down to personneland the woman in the front desk
(18:26):
pointed to a small room of themain office area and told Brenda
that there's somebody for youin that room.
Sure, now it was bad news.
And she started thinking well,my mom must be dead, not just
hurt.
I'm not going in that room bymyself.
And she told that to the frontdesk lady and she said no, no,
you have to.
And so Brenda asked is everyoneokay?
(18:48):
I'm not going in that roomuntil I know my mom's okay.
And so she told her no, yourmom's okay, everyone's
okay.
So Brenda then come down andwent in and there was Sergeant
Alan Ugg.
He stand up, he introducedhimself and he told her that he
had a few questions and he saidhow long have you been married
(19:10):
to your husband?
And she said 12 years.
What is this all about?
He said I can't tell you.
She said well, you can't tellme what this is about.
And he said no, because we needto get your home so you can
make arrangements to take careof your kids, won't they be
coming home on the bus?
(19:30):
And before she left, she calledher kids' school and left a
message for a friend who workedin the school office to take her
kids home with her after schoolthat she will pick them up
there.
Brenda insisted on driving herown car.
The police were reluctant tolet her, but they have no choice
.
A little while later, brendapulled up to a house that had
(19:51):
seemed so normal just a fewhours ago.
The driveway was now filledwith five unmarked police SUVs.
Yellow police tape, cordoneverything off.
So she asked is Jeff here?
They say no, where is he?
I can't tell you.
She asked if she could go inthe house, and they say no, she
(20:12):
had to go to the bathroom.
Nope, she insisted.
Finally, they had no choice.
They didn't have warrants yet,so no one had been charged.
It was her house.
As she walked in, the phonerang and it was someone else
fromschool.
It turned out the friend shehad left a message with had gone
home early and wouldn't be ableto take the kids.
(20:35):
Brenda called her mom and askedher to pick them up, and she
told them don't take them home,do not come here.
Take the kids to your house,she said why, what's up?
She said don't take them home,do not come here.
Take the kids to your house,she said.
Why, what's up?
She said I don't know.
But believe me, take the kidsto your house, do not bring them
here.
Brenda came back outside andthis time determined, and she
(20:56):
started screaming where's Jeff,where's Jeff?
And finally someone said he hasbeen arrested.
And she was like whoa what for?
They said.
I can tell you right now.
Brenda was, you know, imaginingthat it probably was a speeding
ticket gone awry.
Jeff pulled over, going 10 overwith a warrant for his arrest
(21:21):
for unpaid parking tickets orsomething like that, and over
with a warrant for his arrestfor unpaid parking tickets, or
something like that.
Having sat there for hours withnothing to do but watch the
scene, brandemille had noticedwhat looked to be a car covered
by a tarp, hidden behind a bermof snow piled up from the
driveway.
At some point he went over toBrenda and asked her what was
(21:44):
under the tarp and she said oh,that's Jeff's car.
That car never moves.
He's had it since before wewere married.
She didn't tell him, but it wasthe first car Jeff have ever
financed on his own and he had afantasy of someday putting its
engine into a 1968 Chevy.
(22:05):
So he asked, can you show it tome?
And she said sure, they walkedthrough the snow.
At the side of the garage,brenda lifted an edge of the
tarp and it was a gold MonteCarlo.
On the drive back to the policestation, larson and Kilbourne
(22:31):
engaged Gordon into small talk,wanting to keep him calm.
He would respond quietly andpolitely, but with one exception
he never initiated any talk ofhis own.
He told them he had been incharge of the crew that had
installed the sprinkler systemat the state police post they
were now heading to and onething struck Larson.
(22:54):
Larson said he never asked onequestion, not what does this
case you're investigatinginvolve nothing?
It was a strange trip.
Because then he says I don'tknow whose mind was going faster
, his or mine.
I know we got the right guy andhe doesn't know.
(23:15):
Weknow.
So they let Gordon into thestation, the brass and local
cops having been banished tooffices and out of the hallway
so things wouldn't seem too outof the ordinary.
They took Gordon to a roomusually used by the polygraph
unit, hidden audio and video hadbeen set up so Gordon wouldn't
(23:36):
be aware he was being filmed andtaped.
Then they left him alone for afew minutes.
The video date, the videotapethe date in the upper left
corner says 2-08-02.
Time in the upper left cornersays 1-40 pm.
(23:57):
So Gordon sits in a chair justto the right of center screen
wearing blue jeans.
Cuffs roll up about four inches.
Gray t-shirt, blue jeans, cuffsroll up about four inches,
great T-shirt.
Screen left is a small tableand he rubs his right hand with
his left.
He rugs back and forth.
(24:18):
He looks around the room, up atthe ceiling, tilts forward,
tries to read the top page of apacket of papers Larson has left
on the table.
At 1.44 pm there's a noise of adoor opening screen
left.
Kilbourne reintroduces hispartner.
He says I'm Mike Larson and hereaches across the table to
(24:48):
shake Gordon's hand andKilbourne leans over and shakes
his hand too.
So Gordon leans back, right legcrossed over left, arms folded
across his chest.
Larson and Kilbourne are justoff screen to the left.
Larson's left hand can be seentaking notes.
So Larson starts asking notes.
(25:13):
So Larson's start asking, or Iwould say explaining to Jeff.
He says Jeff, let us explain toyou.
We're part of a task forcethat's assisting the Flint
Police Department.
We're working on a couple ofdifferent cases and your name
came up in one of our cases,specifically the assault on a
woman by the name of MargaretEbby.
You're probably wondering geez,why am I here?
And the bottom line is, at onepoint you work at the Mott
Estate.
(25:33):
I don't know what year you workthere, but your company,
buckler Sprinkler, and Gordonsaid I don't think I ever worked
there.
And so he said okay, we willget to that, but you can
obviously see why we would haveto talk to you, just like we
have to talk to probably 100other people so far.
(25:54):
This is a real shot in the darkfor us, because this is a case
that's gone unsolved for a longtime.
There is a great big pool ofpeople we have to contact and
we're just slowly working ourway through
it.
So Larsen tells him that he andKilburn are square shooters,
that while they are not requiredto at this point, for their
(26:16):
sake and for his, they want himto read his Miranda rights and
sign an acknowledgement that hehas read them.
Gordon takes the form, glancesat it, picks up the pen.
Gordon takes the form, glancesat it, picks up the pen, asks
for the date and signs and datesit.
So Larson says maybe you arespeed reader, jeff, did you in
(26:39):
fact had a chance to look itover?
And he said mm-hmm.
And Gordon confirms thespelling of his name, his date
of birth, his height, his weight, his home address, the phone
number, his employment historyat Buckner.
They go over his militaryhistory, what he did in the Navy
, and all the while Gordon rocksslightly, arms crossed,
(27:01):
speaking very face, betraying noemotion.
And so Larson asked where wereyou lucky enough to get
stationed at?
And he said Orlando forbootcamp, and then Chicago and
then back to Orlando.
What about his parents?
(27:29):
Lawrence and Shirley are alive.
They're still married.
Deborah is the oldest sibling,steve is the next oldest, then
Ben, who's dead, then Brian,then Jeff, then Greg.
All the boys work in the familybusiness.
What Gordon does is that hedoesn't give details about Dan's
death, just says it's a matterlike oh yeah, he died like.
In a very matter of fact, itwas anything but Dan, who had a
(27:55):
history of depression and heavyalcohol use, committed suicide
in the driveway of a suburbanFlint home at the age of 37 in
1997.
He had been hoping for areconciliation with his ex-wife,
but had just found out that shehad a new boyfriend.
He started an air compressor inthe back of his red Chevy work
van, the compressor normallybeing used to blow water out of
(28:18):
sprinkler lines.
He then went and sat down inthe front seat with the windows
roll up and waited to die ofcarbon monoxide poisoning.
The windows roll up and waitedto die of carbon monoxide
poisoning.
His ex-wife found his body twodays
later.
So they start asking him whatabout a first marriage?
And he said yeah, well, we gotmarried, but it wasn't the right
(28:42):
thing.
We got married right after Iwent into the Navy.
And so they asked him was she ahigh school sweetheart?
He said I guess you could callher an old sweetheart.
She got pregnant just before Igraduated from high school.
She's remarried.
I'm not sure of her lastname.
And he said what happened totheir child, a boy?
He said I'm not sure.
(29:03):
He said what's his name.
He said Jeffrey, but it'sspelled different.
I know he graduated from highschool.
He said when did you last havecontact with him?
He said 1986.
Don told him he had a differentfather, her boyfriend at the
time.
So even though she played thosemind games with you saying he
(29:23):
had a different dad, did shestick you with child support?
And he said, oh, yeah, he saidthrough high school.
He said yep, jeff is vagueabout divorce details.
He says that she came backwithout him to Flint.
They tried to reconcile in 1986, but it didn't work
out.
So then Larson asked do yourecall doing any work at the
(29:45):
Mudd estate?
And so now he says I might havebeen there once.
My brother did some installwork there, greg.
He says so you were at the MottEstate once.
He said I was there when he putan addition down.
I forget what they call thebuilding, but he put an addition
down.
To refresh his memory, larsonsurprising Jeff, pulls out a
(30:09):
sheaf of blueprints for thesprinkler system at this date,
dated 1984, drafted by Jeff'sdad.
And he said where did he work?
He said it was a littlebuilding down in a lower area, a
chicken coop or something withsome flowers around it.
(30:30):
So they asked him to the bestof your knowledge, that is the
only time you were ever at themodest state.
He said I was there one othertime for two minutes.
This fall Me and my brother,steve Brian, had left some tools
there, he said.
And the other time you werethere, do you recall when that
was?
He said I don't know, maybefour or five years ago.
(30:53):
And Larson says it's easy tounderstand not being sure unless
you're carrying around a diarywith you.
And then Larson continued andsaid Jeff, again, one of the
reasons we call you here isyou're one of the employees of
Butler, and Butler was acontractor at the modern state
(31:19):
During the time frame.
This woman wasassaulted.
As I told you earlier, we havecontacted quite a number of
people.
As I told you earlier, we havecontacted quite a number of
people.
Thanks to modern technology, wedon't have to spend a lot of
time with people.
We can do DNA analysis thatenables us to totally eliminate
somebody in a very short periodof time.
(31:40):
We don't have to take up muchof their time and it saves us a
lot of time.
We're just slowly working ourway through.
We have already worked throughall the former employees of the
modest state and now we'reworking our way through the
contractors.
God knows there are a lot ofthem.
So we got a lot of time cut outfor
(32:01):
us.
Obviously, at some point wewould like you to provide a DNA
book or swab so we can eliminateyou.
Is that something you will beinterested in providing us?
Jeff, who continues to have hisarms crossed, said I don't have
no problem with it, but I don'tknow if I should or not.
(32:21):
And so Larson said you have to.
I got to tell you we havecontacted over 100 people who
are basically in the sameposition as you, and we have had
some people who said no, thisis America.
You have a right to say no,we're not going to lay you down
on the floor and take it.
If you choose not to, that'syour decision and we will
(32:44):
respect it.
Up till now, four or fivepeople out of more than 100 have
refused to, and so they ask himso you don't want to take it?
And he said not right now.
He said okay, want to thinkabout it.
He said I want to think aboutit, want to think about it.
(33:12):
He said I want to think aboutit.
So now this is detectiveKilhorn, his question having an
edge to it, particularly sincehe's been so quiet so far
because Larson has been playingthe good cop.
He said do you ever had areason to go into one of Mudd
estate.
And Jeff said I do know there'sa sprinkler controller in the
main building, but I don't knowwhere.
And so Larson said I meanKilburn said I just want to
(33:35):
clarify.
There's no reason for you to goin the houses, right?
He said no, so much for havingan excuse ready to explain the
bloody print in Abby's bathroomwhen the time comes to bring it
up, right?
So now he said, jeff, I havementioned the sexual assault of
Margaret Evie.
Have you ever heard about thiscase?
(33:55):
This is Larson now asking.
He said I heardsomething.
So Larson pulls out a blackpiece of paper, pushes it across
the table to Gordon and askshim to diagram the modest state
the best he can from his twotrips there.
Gordon puts in the main house agreen house, mentions a garage,
(34:17):
puts in an outbuilding at thebottom of a hill at the back of
the estate, no gay house.
And Larson said is this the waythe modern state looks, to the
best of your recollection?
And Jeffrey nods his head andsaid yeah, my brother would know
more.
Greg does 90% of the work thereand Brian does the
(34:38):
rest.
So Larson said okay, jeff, youmentioned vaguely remembering
this case when I mentioned theEBI assault.
What immediately came to mindto you?
He said I didn't recallremembering the name, but I
remember reading in the paper.
Something happened there.
Any specific recollections ofwhat you read?
(35:00):
He said no.
When was the last time you readabout it?
He said not too long ago.
There was someone from Detroitor something.
He said do you remember whatyou read?
He said not too long ago therewas someone from Detroit or
something, he said.
Do you remember what you read?
He said no, something aboutthey figure out it was the same
person who did it, orsomething.
So now Kilborn asked what doyou think should happen to the
(35:21):
person responsible?
And Gordon says well, he shouldprobably go to jail.
And Gordon says well, he shouldprobably go to jail.
And Larson says well, havingbeen there on the state, jeff,
when you read about this, whatkind of person do you think
could be responsible forsomething like this?
And he shrugged and said I'mnot sure it's a good question.
(35:44):
I don't really know the detailsso I can't say what kind of
person I'm imagining not a goodperson.
And then Detective Larson sayswell, maybe a good person who
had some problems.
I mean, there is any number ofreasons in this line of work, we
(36:06):
try to avoid strictly judginganybody.
We may have a situation wherepeople have problems and
sometimes mistakes happen, andthey truly are mistakes.
And Jeffrey said so.
Larson says well, is there anyreason somebody would mention
your name as a suspect in thiscase?
And Gordon shook his head sideto side and said
no.
Larson pushed Gordon's diagramof the mod estate back in front
(36:29):
of him.
He says Jeff, I want you to goback to this diagram that you
made of your recollections ofthe mod estate.
This is a circular driveway andactually there's a small house
the mod family calls thegatehouse.
Do you have any recollection ofthat?
And Gordon said not really,I've been driven by the front of
(36:53):
it, but the cultural center.
I think I might have seen agate here or something.
He said I'm not talking about amansion, it's much smaller.
Do you remember it?
He said I never pay muchattention, so you have a
recollection of a house downhere.
He said I'm not saying thereisn't, I might have seen it.
(37:16):
Any chance, you might have goneinto that house at one time.
And Gordon shakes his head andsays no, I don't know whose
house that is.
And so Larson said well, let meask you this You're on the job,
you work outside.
Is there ever a time whennature calls and you have to
(37:37):
knock on a door and say, hey,can I use the bathroom?
And Gordon says usually we usethe trucks or go behind a tree
or something.
So do you recall any instances,in the two times you were at
the modest state, that you mayhave gone into the main house or
this smaller house to use thefacilities?
(38:00):
He said yeah.
He said it was so long ago.
I don't remember everything Idid when I was
there.
So Kilbourne asked did you everhear anything personally about
Margaret Ebby, what kind of awoman she was?
He said no, I think she was ateacher or something.
So they asked him if he evertook any classes at UM Flint,
(38:26):
and he said yes.
The summer after high school,college prep stopped to see if
he was up to college.
So they asked him did he everhad her as a teacher?
And he said not sure.
Ever take music classes?
He said no.
So they asked him why did hequit school?
And so he said when I found outmy girlfriend was pregnant, we
(38:50):
would be broken up for some time.
I was just looking for a way toget away, and that's when I
joined theNavy.
So Larson asked you said Gregdid 90% of the work at the
modest state.
Did Greg ever mention MargaretEby to you?
Mentioned Margaret Ebby to you?
(39:13):
The reason I say this, jeff, isapparently Mrs Ebby has some
peculiar activities.
She apparently used to go backof this gatehouse and sunbathe
nude, and the other thing is shedidn't have any curtains and
most of the windows and shewould often walk around the
house nude.
This information was obtainedin conversations we had with
employees on the grounds.
Did your brother ever mentionany of that to you?
(39:36):
He saidno.
So Larson continues and saysJeff, can you give us a couple
of minutes?
Can you give us a couple ofminutes?
We got a document we're waitingon and I want you to see if
it's here.
Can I get you a glass of water,a cup of coffee while we're
waiting?
And he said maybe a glass ofwater.
(39:58):
So Larson gets in the water andthey get up and
leave.
They go to the video monitorand look at him.
His face seems to be relaxed,but his body, the guy, looks as
if he's going to come out of hisskin.
He leans forward, he leans back.
He looks skyward, looks aroundthe room.
(40:21):
Hands are clasped on, clasps,clasps on, clasps Resumes
rocking.
Right hand rubs vigorously onright knee.
He continues rocking back andforth.
Left hand rubs the left thigh.
Then he was just basically alittle squirming.
(40:46):
So this is around 2.15 pm.
They open the door and you cansee it on the video screen.
Left Cops are back and fornearly all the next hour Gordon
has his arms crossed one leg,then the other and crossed over
the opposite knee.
He continues to walk back andforth and so Larson says we'll
(41:12):
try not to keep you here toomuch longer.
But we still have somequestions for
you.
Jeff, I would like you toclarify for us your military
record.
For some reason you kind ofglaze over everything that
happened in your military career.
I got to tell you, we got someidea of what happened to you and
(41:34):
all he said was mm-hmm.
So they said I can understandand appreciate that that could
be a sensitive subject to youand it sounds like for the
trouble you got in you obviouslypaid your dues.
So Larson tells them it wasn'tthe 4th of 1981 that he joined
the Navy, butlater.
And he said he asked him whenhe said well, it was February or
(41:59):
March.
It was a crazy time.
Like I said, I was trying toget away from a kid, just that
she was pregnant and trying tomake me think it was mine.
And he said so, was she apromiscuous person?
I said no, not really.
But we had been broken up forthree or four months when she
came to me and said that she waspregnant.
(42:19):
So anyone would question thatDid you ever have a test done?
He said no, so that's why youwent into the military to escape
that.
He said basically I told her Ididn't think it was mine.
I didn't think that was rightbecause for her to come to me
three or four months later andsay it was
mine.
So he says that he joined theNavy under the buddy program
(42:42):
with Joe Contreras, a friendfrom high school.
They went to boot camp inFlorida together.
Then they went their separateways.
Gordon went to Chicago foradvanced training as an
electrician, then to Orlando forthe nuclear power school, and
Jeff found out in boot camp thathe could run but he couldn't
(43:03):
hide and he said she came down,found me in boot camp.
Finally I agreed to marry her.
It was the right thing to doso?
Larson says the nuclear school.
How long did that training last?
And he said it was supposed tolast into some trouble and left
(43:28):
the Navy.
And he said, as I mentioned toyou before, jeff, good people
get in trouble in our work.
There is.
There isn't anything thatsurprises us.
We're not judgmental.
Different people have differentwants and desires.
What drove you to get into sometrouble in Orlando?
(43:49):
And he said I stole some thingsI shouldn't have.
He said what in particular?
He said personal stuffbelonging to.
He said other people.
He said men, women, children.
He said women.
What in particular?
Was it jewelry, somethingvaluable Clothing?
(44:09):
He said clothing, anything else?
He saidno.
Larson said well, the originalcharge we saw said burglary.
In my mind, burglary isforcibly entering someone's home
and taking something.
Is that what you did?
He said I climbed in through awindow and stole a couple of
(44:32):
things.
He said did you ever doanything like that in Michigan
prior to getting caught inOrlando?
He said no, that was the firsttime I thought about breaking
into someone's house, he said,but you thought about women's
clothing.
When did that first surface foryou?
He said it seems like most ofmy life.
(44:53):
He said okay, as I said we'renot judgmental.
To me it doesn't matter ifyou're heterosexual, if you're
gay, if you like cats or dogs orwomen's clothing.
Basically it doesn't matter.
We all have our own personaldesires.
Was it in high school when youhad your first attraction to
(45:13):
women's clothing?
He said more like junior high.
He said do you have troublegetting girlfriends?
He said not really.
He said were you sexuallyactive?
He said not a lot.
So he said do you experiencesexual intercourse in high
school?
He said not really until I waswith Dawn.
He said was she the first time?
(45:35):
And he paused for a moment andthen he said as far as I can
remember, he said did you startwith your mother's clothing?
He said right Later, in anotherinterview, later in the future,
he would have said that hestarted cross-dressing when he
was five yearsold.
(45:56):
So they continue and says didthat progress to the point
perhaps where you went over to aneighbor's house, perhaps
entering through an unlockeddoor or window, taking clothes
hanging from a line?
And he said not really.
I think I might have got acouple of things from my
friend's parents, you know, notbreaking in because I was
(46:19):
already there.
Is there any particular item ofclothing you're particularly
fond of?
He said pantyhose, I guess.
He said do you still have somefetish desires to this day?
He said yeah, I have seen apsychiatrist for it after I got
back toMichigan.
He said after you served timein prison?
(46:39):
He said mm-hmm.
He said did you spend all 22months of your time in the same
facility in Northern Florida?
And he said yes, what was thatlike for you?
How were you treated?
He said okay, I guess it wasjust a place to stay.
You didn't get no help oranything.
So Larson asked did you feelyou could have used some help?
(47:03):
He said yeah, I could have usedsome help.
I knew that wanting thosethings was wrong.
And then he said you never.
Do you ever?
Did you have the birds and thebees?
Talk with your dad?
He said no, definitely not withmy dad.
(47:26):
He said what about your mother?
He said I must not have becauseI got a girl pregnant.
He said was there a dominantparent in the house?
He said well, my mom raised thekids, but my dad was the
dominant one.
If you say this, that's the wayit was.
And then Larson asked him justgoing over to your house it's
(47:48):
obvious you're a clean andmeticulous person.
That probably is a caveat fromthe way your mother brought you
up.
He said probably Q-Bone hasbeen quiet this second session
while Larson was doing all thequestions and continued asking
(48:08):
the questions and said Greg, isthere anything you want to ask
aboutOrlando?
And Kilburn suddenly startstalking and says quite frankly,
you have been very cordial to ussince you have been here.
Apparently, you skipped overthat stuff the first time you
told us about it.
Were you simply embarrassed orwere you hoping we didn't know
(48:31):
about it?
And he said well, it's notsomething you're proud of.
He said is there anything else?
Be honest, is there anythingelse you did not tell us,
especially about that timeperiod that you think we should
know?
He said well, there were two orthree things that got me in
(48:52):
jail.
So what were the others?
He said one is I did try topull a slip off one
lady.
So where did that occur?
He said some apartments.
It seemed a way to getsomething else.
So was there anything else ofthat nature?
So there was one where I way toget something else.
So was there anything else ofthat nature?
So there was one where I triedto get something.
I tried to break in anotherplace but didn't get in Any
(49:17):
other incidents in Florida.
He said well, there was one inthe base that got me in trouble.
It was the same thing.
I tried to pull a slip off agirl.
Were you successful?
I said no, it'll happen righttogether.
The one I broke into was whenwe were in the trailer park and
it was the manager of thetrailer park.
He must have turned my name in.
(49:37):
It was his daughter.
His daughter was like 12 orsomething and Kilburn said you
were married.
That can't be a good thing foryour marriage.
Kieran said you were married.
That can't be a good thing foryour marriage.
He said right, that's why shecame back to Michigan.
He said your sentence wassupposed to be four and a half
years.
You got out early.
Do you know why?
He said if you go to classesand stuff, you get out
(50:00):
early?
Did you hurt any of the womenor was it strictly just trying
to take articles of clothing?
The women or was it strictlyjust trying to take articles of
clothing?
He said just take articles ofclothes.
Did the women get accidentallyinjured?
I'm trying to think how youwould get a slip off.
He said I knocked them down,but I don't think they really
got hurt.
One was in a group of peopleand I didn't really get anywhere
(50:24):
, it was just an attempt.
The other one, she fell down.
I didn't really push her down,she must have stepped back and
fell.
Do you have an attorney?
He said I had one.
I don't think I had a good one.
And he said do you think yoursentence was out of line?
He said it was out of linecompared to some people who were
(50:47):
there.
He said did that make youbitter toward the criminal
justice system?
He said no, I just wish theywould have had something there.
They tried to have a programbecause there were more people
like me there, but it just neverwas much.
They couldn't get funding forit.
When I came home I went to apsychiatrist on my own and
(51:11):
Kilborn asked when you got outof prison, do you immediately
return to Michigan or do youwork in Florida?
And he said they took me to theairport.
So what about this girl in thetrailer?
He said I met her, seen her afew times, pretty good looking.
I actually never planned onbreaking in there, but I was mad
(51:34):
at the manager so I thought Iwould get.
Even Someone had stolen a canoeand I had no reason to steal a
canoe, but he had come over andaccused me of stealing it, so I
was mad at him.
Do you feel any anger at thesystem as a whole?
He said I wish I would havegotten more counseling.
Yeah, but I'm not mad atanyone.
(51:55):
So Larson asked were you atwhat in your life right now?
Do you feel as if you could usesome counseling?
He said I still get some urgesand stuff.
I'm not perfect.
He said well, none of us arecompared to the alcoholic.
A guy with a fetish is like apebble compared to a boulder.
(52:18):
The drunk driving his car couldpotentially kill someone.
And Gordon stops rocking whenhe said that and stares at
Larson.
And Larson continues and saysdo you have any particular
issues with women?
Do you have a hard timerelating to women?
He said not really.
(52:40):
He said do you get mad realeasy at women?
He's like you get mad real easyat women?
He's like no, and he decided tohit a woman.
No, were you teased in school?
He said well, we were poor, sowore poor people's clothes.
I got teased about that and Ihad a bad complexion and stuff.
Is there any fantasies that youhave in regard to women and
(53:03):
stealing the clothing that youstill feel inside of you?
And he said it's alwaysprobably going to be there.
Yeah, so is there anythingspecific like bondage?
Where would you tie someone up?
He said, nah, sadistic, wheresomeone's tortured or whipped
(53:28):
anything of that nature.
And he shakes his head side toside and Kibron says when you
got back to Michigan, you stillhad those desires.
Were there any similarincidents to those down in
Florida?
Were there any similarincidents to those down in
Florida?
He said, since I've been backno, not really.
(53:49):
It's been a couple of years nowbut I did get in a little
trouble.
In Clio I gotprobation.
I did try to look up a girl'sskirt.
I didn't try to take anything,I was just looking.
The girl was wearing a shortskirt and she she bent over and
I just you know.
He said what led up to it.
(54:14):
He said I was there to shop.
My wife's birthday or someholiday was coming up.
I was looking to get somethingfor my wife and I seen her there
and I don't know why I did it.
I've never done that before.
She had a short black skirt on.
I remember she was good looking, but I can't describe her.
So Larson says so that's theonly thing you can recall
happening to you in Michigan.
He said not since I seen thepsychiatrist.
(54:36):
He said I had to learn tocontrol it
myself.
I still get the desires forwomen things.
It's usually my wife's things.
He said do you wear her clothes?
He said I have a couple oftimes.
He said is she aware of yourfetish?
He said yeah, she kind of knows.
He said is it okay with her?
He said okay, I don't know.
(54:57):
Okay, but she would prefer Ididn't have any thoughts like
that at all.
He said does that cause anissue with your wife?
He said not really, because Idon't do it much
anymore.
So Kilbourne asked you have apretty good marriage other than
that?
He said yes.
He said do you ever hit yourwife?
(55:19):
He said do I ever hit her?
No, ever had any police contactof a domestic nature?
He said no, sounds like that.
You have a good marriage.
And he says mm-hmm and henods.
So now Larson asks him Jeff,other than your arrest in
Florida, what's the worst thingthat ever happened to you that
(55:44):
you regret?
Larson?
At this point he's thinkingabout Abby and Ludwig, hoping
that may have Gordon ready toconfess.
But instead Gordon says Iremember one time I was upset I
didn't get a job in the shopdown in Detroit Where's the
Chrysler plant?
Not Detroit, but down theresomewhere.
(56:07):
It was skill trades.
He said so why did you chooseDetroit?
He said I didn't choose Detroit, I was on unemployment.
And they did it.
Everything was done here, allthe skills tests.
So then I passed that and wentdown, not to Detroit but to
wherever their main facility is.
So I went down and did somemore testing.
(56:27):
He said anything else you mightregret?
He said no, mostly it's beenkind of blessed.
He said well, we all have beenkind of disappointed in
ourselves because we didn't meetour
expectations.
Anything else in your life thatsticks out for you?
Do you ever spend any time downin Southeast Michigan?
(56:48):
And he said not really.
He said not really means oncein a while.
He said I flew out of theairport once.
He said when was that?
He said I don't remember whatyear my wife and I went through
the company flew to Vegas onetime and to Cancun, costa Rica,
once.
It was all with my wife.
Oh, and I went to Florida once,me, my wife and my kids.
(57:12):
So four times you have flownout of Metro Airport in Detroit?
He said yes, ever spend thenight in any of the hotels down
there?
He said we did once Rememberwhere you stay.
He said no, I remember theplanes flew over the top of us,
me and my wife and kids, aboutfour years
ago.
So Larson asked ever been tothe Romulus Hilton?
(57:39):
And there was a pause and hisleft eyebrow races and that's
about it.
Gordon gives nothing away.
And then he says Hilton.
I don't think so.
I'm sure we could never affordto stay at the Hilton.
One of the trips we stayedsomeplace it was in the Hilton.
(58:02):
It was the cheapest place wecould find Ever been in the
Hilton.
It was the cheapest place wecould find Ever been in the
Hilton at any time.
He said not that I know of,probably like a Holiday Inn,
something likethat.
He said well, from reading thenewspaper accounts of what
happened to Margaret Abby andthe woman in Detroit, what do
you remember?
He said I just remember thatthey were killed or something,
(58:25):
and it was by the same person orsomething.
I don't know if I actually readit.
It was on TV.
I might have read some of it, Idon't read too
much.
And Larson asked did theydescribe how these women were
killed?
There was a long, long pause.
His arms are crossed, his leftleg over right knee.
(58:46):
They're rocking pauses too.
And then he says probably did,but I wasn't paying much
attention.
Did he mention a sexualassault?
To both there was a long pauseand he said it might have.
Just that he did it, I didn'tpay that much attention to it.
He said are you an avid TVwatcher?
(59:08):
He said not a whole lot.
He said what are your favoritechannels?
He said we don't get too manychannels.
He said you don't get cable.
He said just have an antenna.
Usually we like to comedies.
That's all I have time for, ifI have time to watch them.
And Larson says when was thelast time you were down in the
(59:34):
area of Metropolitan Airport?
He said the airport.
This fall we drove by anairport, don't know which
one.
And Larson asks are there anyother incidents that might have
happened?
And he shakes his head and sayno.
He said reported or unreported.
He's like no, any otherincidents.
(59:54):
He said no, I'm trying to keepmyself clean.
And then Larson paused for alittle bit and then he says
okay.
And Larson turns to Kilbourneand you can see him turn on
(01:00:21):
screen, but you can see hishands rotating to the right
holding the papers and you canalmost picture his body half
rising from the chair.
And he said Greg, you gotanything and if Greg doesn't,
then that will be done.
And Greg does and says didthese problems ever escalate
beyond theft?
(01:00:41):
And Gordon shakes his head andsay no, so just use to take him
and try them on and stuff.
And there's a long pause.
So now Greg Kilburn asks how doyou feel about being here?
You feel good about it.
Sounds like you're kind ofcleansing your soul here.
(01:01:03):
Mike and I are both prettydecent guys.
You feel okay about this.
And Gordon shrugs and says Idon't like to talk about my
problems, problems I couldprobably be having.
He said there's a long pauseand Gordon takes a big gulp of
water.
Kilburn asks anything else?
(01:01:24):
We'll try to get you out ofhere in a timely basis if
possible, but we need to go alittle further here, get a
little more information so we'llget through this situation here
.
Anything else you need, likewater, or are you all set?
He said I'm all set.
How long do you think this willtake.
(01:01:46):
I know my wife wants to go outtonight and Kilburn said I'm not
sure.
She's obviously been contactedand if you're concerned about
your kids, she was notified.
That situation has beenresolved.
He said we have plans to go outI think it was tonight and he
started rocking again with hisarm crossed.
He said we'll give you a fewminutes to relax, we'll be back
(01:02:09):
and go from there.
So he and Larson get up, walkout of the room and this time
they let Jeffrey stew for 12minutes and he sighs, he leans
back, he stares at the ceiling,he rubs his hands, he rubs and
rubs his hand and rubs and it's3.43
(01:02:32):
pm.
So now they return and Kilburnsays you have been very patient,
we appreciate that we haven'treally talked about your cars.
What kind of cars do you liketo drive?
Are you a car guy?
He said not really no.
He said what kind of cars doyou own?
He said an old convertible, a1964 Dutch Dart, and a van, a
(01:02:57):
brown conversion van.
And I got one that's rottingaway in Monte Carlo.
He said that's rotting away inMonte Carlo.
He said when did you get thatvehicle?
He said I got it about 87, 88.
I drove it until a few yearsago.
I still drive it once in awhile.
He said what year was it?
He said it's an 82.
(01:03:18):
It's under a cover.
He said are you all straightwith your water?
And he nodsyes.
And then Larson says Jeff, upto this point I think we got
through some issues.
You were not being totallyhonest with us, but I think we
worked through that.
We're going to be totallyhonest with you.
We have given you a chance toshare with us some events that
(01:03:43):
have happened in your life.
It's time for us to share somethings with
you.
And when Larsen says this, he'ssaying it louder, more
forcefully than he said anythingso far.
He pauses, there's a long pause.
He reaches down to some papersin front of him and shuffles
(01:04:05):
through them.
Gordon is watching himshuffling, his arms continue to
be crossed, slightly rocking,and he says if I can find it,
I'll be happy to share it.
In the meantime, do you haveany questions for us?
I don't want this to be aone-sided conversation.
(01:04:26):
Feel free, there's nothing wehave to hide.
And Jeff said no, as I saidearlier, I wonder how long this
is going to take.
We're supposed to go outtonight,
said.
Well, jeff Larson looks like hefound the paper he was looking
for, puts it out, hands itacross the table to Gordon, said
I want you to take a look atthis.
Found the paper he was lookingfor, puts it out, hands it
(01:04:47):
across the table to Gordon.
He said I want you to take alook at this.
Gordon takes a hold of it,stares at it you can see it on
screen, but it is on FBIletterhead and he says I'm not
sure what this is.
And Larson says flip it over.
(01:05:08):
What does it say?
That sentence near the top,gordon begins reading Two latent
fingerprints of value appear inQ1 and
Q2.
Two negatives One latentfingerprint appearing in Q2.
A negative source, notindicated, has been identified,
apparently as me.
(01:05:29):
What it had gone on to say,which he didn't read, was has
been identified as a fingerprintof Jeffrey Wayne Gorton, fbi
number 54834CA3.
He said is that your name?
And he said uh-huh.
(01:05:49):
And Larson says Jeff, you toldus things that have troubled you
and it's very evident to usthat you would like to get some
help.
You're the only one who cananswer
this.
The problem with the underwearescalated and ultimately
resulted in the assault onMargaret Abbey.
(01:06:10):
Gordon shakes his head and saysI don't think so.
And Larson says I absolutelypositively know you did.
Do you know where the printcame from?
He's saying no, he said theupstairs bathroom of a house you
said you had never been in.
There was no question.
(01:06:32):
You're the person who'sresponsible.
The question is why, and whatcan we do for you?
And he said there's no whybecause I didn't do it.
Larson says you did.
You can continue to say youdidn't do it.
(01:06:54):
I'll continue to say you did itbecause I absolutely positively
know you did.
I'm not here to say you're abad person, because I don't
think you are.
I think you have some issues inyour life and some problems and
there were many times peoplecould have helped you and didn't
.
Wouldn't you agree?
(01:07:14):
And he said I could have usedsome help, yeah, but not with
this.
And Larson says the question iswhy did it happen, jeff?
And Kilburn then says we needto go to the prosecutor with a
reason.
If we're going to be able tohelp you, we can help you.
(01:07:38):
If you don't help us.
And he said well, I just needto see an attorney now because I
know I didn't do anything.
Larson says if we're going toget you help, this is your
opportunity.
This and he was waving the FBIreport says it's not the final
(01:08:01):
report.
Okay, the DNA analysis from youcame back today and it's a
perfect match.
We're going to afford you theopportunity to explain
this.
Your family is out there in thelobby now and I got to go out
and talk to your wife.
(01:08:21):
I'm not going to give her allthe details and then I gotta go
talk to your parents and yourbrothers and your sister.
I'm not here to judge you.
This isn't the case like this.
We have work on, but I havedone enough of them to know
there is a reason why thingshappen.
I know I'm sitting here talkingto a guy who has cried out for
(01:08:45):
help.
The prosecutor already has thisevidence the fingerprint, the
DNA analysis.
There is no one else with thatDNA on the face of the earth.
I surely would like to walk outthere to your family and
(01:09:05):
explain it to them that you wereremorseful and wanted to take
responsibility and set anexample to your wife and, more
important, to yourchildren.
And Gordon says well, I didn'tdo anything.
So well, you can deny it anddeny it and deny it, but we know
you did it.
This isn't a matter of geez.
He may have done it.
This is absolutely beyond ashadow of doubt, 100% positive.
(01:09:32):
You did it.
Were you expecting this?
It's been almost 16 years.
Were you looking over yourshoulder for us?
He said I don't know whatyou're talking about.
I want to talk to my lawyer.
I said I don't know what you'retalking about.
I want to talk to my lawyer.
I saidokay.
And Kilburn said well, at thispoint we have to tell you you're
(01:09:54):
under arrest.
Larson says you're under arrestfor two counts of homicide.
Just sit tight, I'll be rightback.
And Larson leaves, kilburnremains.
And Larson leaves, kilbourneremains.
Then, larson, this is like at3.57 pm.
So two minutes later Larsonreturns and says stand up, jeff,
(01:10:16):
come here.
Gordon stands and walks towardthe camera, turns screen left
and walks off screen.
The sound of handcuffs sneakingshut can be heard In, also off
camera.
Larson says this interview isover.
Anything you want me to say toyour wife?
Any messages?
He said not now.
(01:10:37):
The door opens, they leave, itsnaps shut.
The camera continues to focuson Gordon's empty chair and
across town the press conferenceends sorry, 70th birthday Later
(01:11:06):
, larson would muse that allthese years the Flint PD was
looking for a monster and theyshould have been looking for the
guy next door.
Thank you for listening to theMurder Book.
Have a great week.
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