December 8, 2025 • 20 mins
Charles is thrilled to announce new sponsors for the podcast, including Amanda’s company Shady Grove Pudding, now both “Proud sponsors and victims of The Murderer Killings.” The investigation of Margaret Mandragora-Jones intensifies, as does her contempt for everyone around her. Deputy Sheriff Branigan trains her sites on two other suspects: Amanda’s estranged husband and Amanda’s twin brother Teddy. We learn about their personal histories with Amanda and possible motives. Meanwhile, the Covid lockdown of 2020 begins, hampering both the investigation, and Chief Ebner’s access to hot wings. A pair of shocking developments – one happy, one tragic – rock the community and the investigation.
Thanks for listening. Check out the TMK merch at:
https://the-murderer-killings-a-true-crime-podcast-shop.fourthwall.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Charlie Incarica (00:00):
I need to start this third episode by
announcing there's been big newsinvolving the case, or at least
my podcast about the case.
We've picked up a couple ofsponsors, both of which we're
excited to be partnering with,and none more so than Shady
Grove Pudding itself.
So today's episode is broughtto you by Shady Grove Pudding,
proud sponsors and victims ofthe murderer killings.
(00:22):
Now on with the podcast.
Jingle Singers (00:25):
When you want a pudding that you love, open up a
cup of Shady Grove.
Charlie Incarica (00:32):
It's probably fair to say that Shady Grove's
small police department wasn'tequipped to handle a murder case
like the one they wereconfronted with in March of
2020.
And while most of the ShadyGrove police declined to be
interviewed, Taylor Branagin,who was Shady Grove's deputy
sheriff in 2020, has not onlybeen willing, but eager.
Taylor Branigan (00:53):
I thought it was run in a really shoddy
fashion.
From the word go, Chief Ebnerseemed out of his depths.
Charlie Incarica (01:00):
How so?
Taylor Branigan (01:09):
Tommy insisted on stopping to order two large
buckets of fire wings as a sortof welcome to Shady Grove
icebreaker.
I tried explaining that itwasn't appropriate to bring food
to a crime scene, but he becameangry and insisted that it was
rude to show up at any homeempty-handed.
But honestly, I think he justhad a craving for hot wings.
Oh, absolutely.
(01:32):
At first.
But that place does make reallygood wings.
Charlie Incarica (01:36):
You're saying they ate the wings at the crime
scene.
Taylor Branigan (01:38):
Well, fortunately, the victims were
murdered in a hallway just offthe kitchen, so they didn't have
to.
Charlie Incarica (01:44):
If the wings were that good, they must have
been shady hot hot wings.
The hottest hot wings in all ofShady Grove.
Shady hot hot wings, nowoffering reasonably priced
napkins.
So what were your firstimpressions of the scene?
Taylor Branigan (02:01):
Well, the first thing that jumped out at me was
the sheer brutality of theattacks.
And of course, the amount ofblood.
But then Tommy stepped throughthat blood and tracked it into
the kitchen.
Charlie Incarica (02:12):
Do you think he was deliberately trying to
contaminate the crime scene?
Taylor Branigan (02:16):
I think he really wanted to solve the case.
I do.
Unfortunately, and and youknow, I'm trying to be
diplomatic here, so let's justsay that I have socks.
That could outwit that man.
Charlie Incarica (02:27):
Chief Ebner zeroed in first on Margaret
Mandragora Jones because she wasAustralian.
Is that right?
Taylor Branigan (02:34):
Yep.
Charlie Incarica (02:34):
How did the questioning go?
Um.
Chief Ebner (02:40):
Alrighty, Root.
So, uh interview of MargaretMandrag.
Sorry.
Ma Mar Mandra Mar MargaretMandragree Drag.
Um Mar Mar Margarine Margaret.
Charlie Incarica (02:56):
I'm going to skip ahead a bit here, because
for the next few minutes, hemispronounces her name
repeatedly, and then starts tomispronounce a lot of words.
More or less all of them.
Eventually, Taylor suggeststhey break for lunch and start
over.
And it's not hard to imaginethe chief, all of them in fact,
polished off their lunches withone or two creamy smooth
(03:17):
helpings of smooth, creamy,shady grove pudding.
Shady Grove pudding, now inpackages that don't show you the
calorie count.
Jingle Singers (03:24):
When you are a birding that you love, open up a
cup of shady grove.
Charlie Incarica (03:30):
An hour later, they resumed the questioning.
Chief Ebner (03:32):
Okay, interview resumed with um, you know what?
Is it okay if I just call youMargaret?
If you think you can manage it.
Actually, let me try just onemore.
Margaret Mandragora-Jones (03:41):
No, let's move on.
I'm keen to see if you'll stickthe landing on your name.
Chief Ebner (03:45):
Well, I guess that there's uh some of that dry wit
you British are known for.
For fuck's sake.
Taylor Branigan (03:50):
She's Australian.
Chief Ebner (03:51):
Jesus! You scared the crap out of me, Taylor.
I forgot you were there.
Taylor Branigan (03:54):
I'm saying Miss Mandragora Jones is from
Australia.
Chief Ebner (03:56):
Yeah, I know.
Which is not in England, you'retelling me.
For the record, the witness isinforming me Australia is not in
England.
Taylor Branigan (04:05):
The witness didn't tell you I did, and she's
not a witness.
Charlie Incarica (04:07):
At that point, they break for what Ebner calls
his second lunch.
Ninety minutes later, they tryagain.
Chief Ebner (04:14):
Okay, we're just gonna film the names later.
Or, you know, whateves.
Um, uh, the time is uh oh well,shoot, I don't know if I watch,
homie.
Um let's say 2.30-ish?
And you're and you're sure Ican't tempt you with some wings,
Margaret.
Margaret Mandragora-Jones (04:28):
I'm hard pressed to think of an
offer less tempting.
Chief Ebner (04:31):
For the record, the wit I mean, the um anyway,
she's declined the offer of hotwings.
Taylor Branigan (04:36):
And an attorney.
Chief Ebner (04:38):
Yes.
You must think you're prettysmart if you say no to a lawyer.
Certainly think you're you'resmarter than I am, right?
But maybe not, Miss Margaret.
I mean, see this, you're sosmart, you have to ask yourself
how the man you're trying tomatch wits with got to be chief.
Margaret Mandragora-Jones (04:55):
From your appearance, I guess some
sort of competitive eatingcontest.
Chief Ebner (04:59):
My competitive eating is totally separate from
my job.
So it seems the tables haveturned.
Taylor Branigan (05:05):
What?
Can you account for yourwhereabouts late on the evening
of March 8th and early themorning of March 9th, 2020?
Margaret Mandragora-Jones (05:13):
I was at home.
I believe she was asking me.
I spent most of the evening asthe guest of Amanda Putnam Hart.
Chief Ebner (05:20):
Who just happens to be the murder victim?
Taylor Branigan (05:23):
A murder victim.
There were two other peoplekilled as well.
Chief Ebner (05:26):
Yes, I suppose I suppose that's technically true.
Taylor Branigan (05:29):
And when did you leave the party?
Margaret Mandragora-Jones (05:31):
I'm not exactly sure, if I'm honest.
I did spend a few hours laterthat night in an adjacent field.
Taylor Branigan (05:38):
Any witnesses who can corroborate this?
Christ, I hope not.
Charlie Incarica (05:43):
The interviews with Margaret didn't yield
anything, but Chief Ebnerinformed her she couldn't leave
town for the next few days.
Deputy Sheriff Branagan didn'tbelieve Margaret Mandragora
Jones was involved with thetriple homicide, but she did
have a theory about someoneelse.
Amanda Putnam Hart's estrangedhusband, William Hart.
Taylor Branigan (06:04):
I think any time one of the connections to
the deceased could be describedas estranged, that's the first
place you look.
Not to mention how bizarretheir relationship was to begin
with.
Charlie Incarica (06:14):
How do you mean?
Taylor Branigan (06:15):
Well, for one thing, I you know, I kind of
feel like you haven't invested awhole lot of time in
researching this, have you?
Charlie Incarica (06:22):
That was completely untrue for the most
part.
And also, I'd had lots of stuffon my plate the last few
months, including a breakup thathit me hard and was not my
fault.
As I think this podcast willdemonstrate, I am emotionally
available, Amy.
Anyway, I wanted to heardirectly from Deputy Sheriff
Brannigan, what basically Ialready knew.
Taylor Branigan (06:43):
The fact that a Hart and a Putnam got married
was really, well, surprising.
Estelle Hayes (06:48):
Everyone in town freaked the fuck out.
Charlie Incarica (06:50):
That's Estelle Hayes again.
Estelle Hayes (06:52):
Amanda Putnam was beautiful, smart, and powerful.
If she fell in love withWilliam Hart, it was the
clearest case of oppositesattracting in the history of
mammals.
Charlie Incarica (07:04):
William Giafredo Hart is the only child
of district attorney Alice Hart.
William's father died in acompellingly realistic civil war
reenactment when William wastwo, and a grief-stricken Alice
threw herself into her legalwork.
William was often lost amid thetumult of her career.
An unusually sensitive youngboy, William spent his school
(07:26):
years in various boardingschools, and his summers in
intense therapy recuperatingfrom various boarding schools.
Timid by nature, he was thefrequent target of bullies, who
teased him for his slight frame,short stature, and his love of
improv comedy.
His senior yearbook lists hischief interests as weighing
small items and sitting.
(07:47):
William opted not to go tocollege, deeply disappointing
his mother.
You have to wonder if perhapsthat might have been part of the
motivation for his decision.
After all, he had neverhonestly had any meaningful
relationship with Alice, and hisresentment must have run deep.
I'm just saying, it's importantto tell the people in your life
(08:08):
you love them.
And I think we'd all have toadmit, that's as emotionally
available as it gets.
In some respects, according toEstelle Hayes, the courtship and
marriage of William and Amandawas like a fairy tale.
Estelle Hayes (08:25):
Not very believable and pretty damn
short.
Charlie Incarica (08:28):
In 2018, Amanda Putnam tweeted she and
William were soulmates.
Her social media was soonreplete with tales of the two
attending gallas, eating out,and even weighing small objects
together.
She told reporters that theywere in each other's company all
the time, because they quote,really liked doing it.
She told friends that herrelationship was just like Romeo
(08:51):
and Juliet, confirming thesuspicion among her inner circle
she'd never read the play.
As for William, he wastypically mum on the topic.
He would on occasion invite areporter to sit down with him,
but it soon became clear thatfor William, this was just a
good excuse to indulge hispassion for sitting.
As for the idea of these twofamously feuding families
(09:12):
finally burying the hatchet,both Amanda Putnam and Alice
Hart went on record as saying itwas about time.
Estelle Hayes (09:20):
Think of it like this.
She was running for governorthat year, and suddenly Putnam
Pudding donates $10 million toher campaign?
That's one giant fuckload ofpuddings.
Look, Amanda Putnam was nodummy, and Alice Hart wasn't
(09:42):
either.
Her campaign needed an infusionof cash, and Amanda knew having
a mother-in-law as a governorwould likely be very good for
business.
Charlie Incarica (09:55):
The wedding took place on June 15th at the
Governor's Mansion, where Alicehad been living since earlier
that year.
Everything seemed perfect.
But was it all as perfect as itseemed?
Estelle Hayes (10:07):
Obviously not.
She ditched him for two otherpeople like six months later,
they know that already.
Charlie Incarica (10:34):
But was she basing this on more than the
fact he was upset about theirseparation?
Taylor Branigan (10:39):
I found out William Hart, despite being
soft-spoken, had a violenttemper.
In fact, he had severalaltercations, but his mother was
always able to get him out ofany jams.
He had no police record, butcops talk.
What's more, he had threatenedseveral co-workers with, you
guessed it, a knife.
Charlie Incarica (10:57):
This was disturbing to hear on a couple
of levels.
Not only was William Hart,obviously, a deeply troubled
soul, but if Alice Hart wascleaning up his legal messes,
this once promising advocate forthe people had become corrupt
too.
Wow, I'm surprised to hearAlice Hart would circumvent the
law like that.
Taylor Branigan (11:16):
She had been an immensely powerful figure for
nearly 30 years at that point.
And you know what they say.
Power corrupts.
Charlie Incarica (11:23):
Right.
Spider-Man.
I'm sorry?
That's a quote by Spider-Man,right?
Taylor Branigan (11:28):
No, Lord Acton, I think.
Charlie Incarica (11:31):
Didn't Spider-Man say something like
that too?
Taylor Branigan (11:33):
I really have no idea what we're talking about
now.
Charlie Incarica (11:37):
But I was right.
He said, with great power comesgreat responsibility.
Or someone in the movie did,which is close enough.
So Taylor Branagan had adilemma.
She had good reason toinvestigate William, but
couldn't really let anyone knowthat she was doing it.
At least not yet.
Because if she were going to goup against Alice Hart, she knew
(11:58):
she'd only have one chance.
Meanwhile, Chief Ebnercontinued to be ridiculed by the
press and public, and, well,pretty much everyone, as someone
who is in over his head.
Chief Ebner (12:11):
The complete blood and DNA tests have come back,
and all of them have confirmedthese samples are, in fact,
blood and DNA.
And trace amounts of hot sauce,but I'm told that's perfectly
normal in this type ofsituation.
Uh, any questions?
Charlie Incarica (12:24):
Did the test show any blood or DNA that isn't
from one of the victims?
Chief Ebner (12:28):
I'm very glad you asked that, because I never
thought to ask that.
I'll try to remember to ask anduh get back to you on that one.
Charlie Incarica (12:36):
The coroner released the bodies to their
respective families, and planswere made for a joint funeral
service the following week.
Taylor Branigan (12:43):
This was great news, as far as I was concerned.
It afforded a uniqueopportunity to observe not only
who attended the funeral, but togauge their behavior at it.
I was excited, especiallybecause the chief let me do this
without him because he said hefound funerals creepy.
Charlie Incarica (12:58):
But then.
It was awfully convenienttiming for Governor Alice Hart.
Taylor Branigan (13:06):
She shut down the entire state with the most
extreme restrictions in thecountry.
Charlie Incarica (13:11):
Deputy Sheriff Branagin was crestfallen.
Seeing no other option, shedecided to show her hand and ask
William Hart to come in forvirtual questioning.
I mean, come in virtually.
The questions weren't virtual,obviously.
She asked to Zoom with him thefollowing day, but a family
representative reached out topostpone, as his doctors had
(13:32):
ordered strict limits on hisamount of screen time.
They set the date for March17th, but on the morning of, his
family reached out again,informing her as it was St.
Patrick's Day, and that Williamhad recently converted to
Irishness, it would be a FirstAmendment violation.
Taylor Branigan (13:48):
They were clearly stalling, but I felt I
had to tread carefully.
Charlie Incarica (13:54):
Finally, on March 20th, 2020, he answered
her Zoom call.
Several things from thatinterview left her uneasy, and a
few of them were related to themurder.
Taylor Branigan (14:05):
He couldn't account for his whereabouts the
night of the murder, saying thathe had only spent most of the
night consoling himself bysitting.
But later he claimed he hadbeen up until after 1 a.m.
weighing guitar picks.
And yet when I asked him a fewminutes later to remind me what
he was weighing, he had clearlyforgotten what he said.
So in what I felt was a panictone of voice, he answered that
he had spent most of the nightweighing monopoly pieces.
(14:27):
His family sent over a copy ofhis weighing journal the next
morning, and sure enough, it hadboth guitar picks and monopoly
pieces listed.
But I felt that was dubious, tosay the least.
Charlie Incarica (14:38):
Did you share your thoughts with Chief Ebner?
Taylor Branigan (14:41):
I did.
And after I was able to explainwhat the word dubious meant, he
agreed to give me more latitudeto investigate William Hart,
though obviously he didn't usethe word latitude.
Charlie Incarica (14:51):
But Taylor Branigan wasn't content to focus
solely on Amanda's husband.
She also had suspicions abouther brother.
Taylor Branigan (15:00):
Teddy Putnam also seemed like a logical
candidate.
Estelle Hayes (15:02):
Teddy had almost ruined that company.
And when Amanda stepped in, shesaved it.
They were technically bothCEOs, but no one treated Teddy
with much respect, and itbothered him.
It would bother anyone, ofcourse, but Teddy had a
reputation for not handlingthings well.
Taylor Branigan (15:19):
I was torn about whether Teddy was capable
of actually killing his ownsister.
Not because she was family, butbecause it required a basic
degree of competence andfollow-through, which everyone
knew weren't strengths of his.
Charlie Incarica (15:31):
She isn't overstating here.
In 2004, in the most infamousexample of his lack of
commitment, he announced a newfamily philanthropic initiative,
Pudding Pals, a summer campwhere terminally ill children
would visit a speciallyoutfitted ranch to meet some of
their favorite celebrities,while continuing to receive
world-class medical care.
He worked diligently throughoutthe winter to ensure 75
(15:55):
children were enrolled free ofcharge, even going so far as to
arrange and pay for theirtransportation from all corners
of the U.S.
But by April, he'd lostinterest.
When the shuttle bus he'darranged to transport the
children from the airport to theranch arrived at the address of
the ranch, they found that notonly were there no celebrities
on hand to greet them, but therewas also no medical staff
(16:16):
either.
And the ranch hadn't even beenconverted from a shooting range.
In fact, it hadn't even stoppedbeing a shooting range.
Estelle Hayes (16:24):
That was horrible.
Just horrible.
Those small, sick childrencrying and trying their best to
hobble or limp back to the bus,which peeled off at the first
volley of gunfire.
Those little angels, justpicturing them having to lie
flat on the ground untilnightfall breaks my fucking
heart.
(16:45):
Thank God those kids from theChristian youth group snuck out
there that night to get stonedand screw, otherwise, those
babies might have died.
Charlie Incarica (16:56):
There was even a brief boycott of Shady Grove
Pudding, though that was clearlyan inappropriate way for people
to channel their frustrations.
Why deny these traumatizedchildren the consoling mouth hug
that only Shady Grove Puddingcan provide?
Hadn't the children sufferedenough?
Shady Grove Pudding, the bestfriend you'll ever have.
Jingle Singers (17:15):
When you want a pudding that you love, open up a
cup of shady grove.
Estelle Hayes (17:21):
Teddy's dad, Robert, was a useless moron, but
Teddy took that legacy and ranwith it.
Charlie Incarica (17:28):
So, Teddy perhaps had a motive and a
history of making poor choices.
On the other hand, stabbingthree people to death feels like
more work than Teddy wouldtypically be willing to put in.
But then there was this otherpoint.
Taylor Branigan (17:42):
After 9-11, Teddy had read that despite that
tragedy, you were more likelyto be killed by a vending
machine than a terrorist.
So Teddy started shootingvending machines.
Charlie Incarica (17:52):
Between November 2001 and February 2002,
Teddy gunned down more than 140vending machines in the Greater
Shady Grove area.
Hospitals, schools, it didn'tmatter.
Eventually, even the Putnamfamily name couldn't prevent
some form of consequence.
Taylor Branigan (18:09):
He didn't do any jail time.
He reached an agreement withthe judge where he had all guns
removed from his home, but itwas a close call.
He almost went to jail for tenyears.
Bear in mind, Teddy was aterrible shot, so the occasional
snack seeker or patient beingwheeled for x-rays would get
hit.
After that, Teddy swore hewould never use a gun again.
And of course, what were thevictims murdered with?
Charlie Incarica (18:31):
A not gun.
Taylor Branigan (18:32):
Right.
A knife.
Charlie Incarica (18:34):
Right, that's basically what I said.
Okay.
Taylor Branaghan had noshortage of theories, and no
shortage of suspects.
But while she was trying to putthe pieces together, she was
rocked by a stunningdevelopment.
On March 26th, at approximately8 30 that evening, Chief Tommy
Ebner was murdered inside ShadyHot Hot Wings.
Taylor Branigan (18:58):
It was.
Well, I mean, to say that itwas a shock is a tremendous
understatement.
Charlie Incarica (19:05):
I can imagine.
Now you not only had noshortage of theories and no
shortage of suspects, but youalso had no shortage of corpses.
What?
That came out wrong.
But I wasn't wrong.
Shady Grove was shaken andshocked.
And for the Shady Grove police,the mystery got more
(19:26):
mysterious.
Was this killing done by thesame killer who'd done the
killings previous to thiskilling?
It seemed likely.
And for the purpose of thispodcast, yes.
So, who would want to killAmanda Putnam Hart?
Her two partners, whose namesI'm blanking on for the moment,
(19:46):
and Tommy Ebner.
To figure this out, perhaps weshould start getting to know
Amanda Putnam Hart a littlebetter.
Which we will next time onepisode four of the murderer
killings.
Jingle Singers (20:00):
When you are the building that you love that you
love a building, let you learna building because you have
shady love shady love.
I need to start this third episode by
announcing there's been big newsinvolving the case, or at least
my podcast about the case.
We've picked up a couple ofsponsors, both of which we're
excited to be partnering with,and none more so than Shady
Grove Pudding itself.
So today's episode is broughtto you by Shady Grove Pudding,
proud sponsors and victims ofthe murderer killings.
(00:22):
Now on with the podcast.
Jingle Singers (00:25):
When you want a pudding that you love, open up a
cup of Shady Grove.
Charlie Incarica (00:32):
It's probably fair to say that Shady Grove's
small police department wasn'tequipped to handle a murder case
like the one they wereconfronted with in March of
2020.
And while most of the ShadyGrove police declined to be
interviewed, Taylor Branagin,who was Shady Grove's deputy
sheriff in 2020, has not onlybeen willing, but eager.
Taylor Branigan (00:53):
I thought it was run in a really shoddy
fashion.
From the word go, Chief Ebnerseemed out of his depths.
Charlie Incarica (01:00):
How so?
Taylor Branigan (01:09):
Tommy insisted on stopping to order two large
buckets of fire wings as a sortof welcome to Shady Grove
icebreaker.
I tried explaining that itwasn't appropriate to bring food
to a crime scene, but he becameangry and insisted that it was
rude to show up at any homeempty-handed.
But honestly, I think he justhad a craving for hot wings.
Oh, absolutely.
(01:32):
At first.
But that place does make reallygood wings.
Charlie Incarica (01:36):
You're saying they ate the wings at the crime
scene.
Taylor Branigan (01:38):
Well, fortunately, the victims were
murdered in a hallway just offthe kitchen, so they didn't have
to.
Charlie Incarica (01:44):
If the wings were that good, they must have
been shady hot hot wings.
The hottest hot wings in all ofShady Grove.
Shady hot hot wings, nowoffering reasonably priced
napkins.
So what were your firstimpressions of the scene?
Taylor Branigan (02:01):
Well, the first thing that jumped out at me was
the sheer brutality of theattacks.
And of course, the amount ofblood.
But then Tommy stepped throughthat blood and tracked it into
the kitchen.
Charlie Incarica (02:12):
Do you think he was deliberately trying to
contaminate the crime scene?
Taylor Branigan (02:16):
I think he really wanted to solve the case.
I do.
Unfortunately, and and youknow, I'm trying to be
diplomatic here, so let's justsay that I have socks.
That could outwit that man.
Charlie Incarica (02:27):
Chief Ebner zeroed in first on Margaret
Mandragora Jones because she wasAustralian.
Is that right?
Taylor Branigan (02:34):
Yep.
Charlie Incarica (02:34):
How did the questioning go?
Um.
Chief Ebner (02:40):
Alrighty, Root.
So, uh interview of MargaretMandrag.
Sorry.
Ma Mar Mandra Mar MargaretMandragree Drag.
Um Mar Mar Margarine Margaret.
Charlie Incarica (02:56):
I'm going to skip ahead a bit here, because
for the next few minutes, hemispronounces her name
repeatedly, and then starts tomispronounce a lot of words.
More or less all of them.
Eventually, Taylor suggeststhey break for lunch and start
over.
And it's not hard to imaginethe chief, all of them in fact,
polished off their lunches withone or two creamy smooth
(03:17):
helpings of smooth, creamy,shady grove pudding.
Shady Grove pudding, now inpackages that don't show you the
calorie count.
Jingle Singers (03:24):
When you are a birding that you love, open up a
cup of shady grove.
Charlie Incarica (03:30):
An hour later, they resumed the questioning.
Chief Ebner (03:32):
Okay, interview resumed with um, you know what?
Is it okay if I just call youMargaret?
If you think you can manage it.
Actually, let me try just onemore.
Margaret Mandragora-Jones (03:41):
No, let's move on.
I'm keen to see if you'll stickthe landing on your name.
Chief Ebner (03:45):
Well, I guess that there's uh some of that dry wit
you British are known for.
For fuck's sake.
Taylor Branigan (03:50):
She's Australian.
Chief Ebner (03:51):
Jesus! You scared the crap out of me, Taylor.
I forgot you were there.
Taylor Branigan (03:54):
I'm saying Miss Mandragora Jones is from
Australia.
Chief Ebner (03:56):
Yeah, I know.
Which is not in England, you'retelling me.
For the record, the witness isinforming me Australia is not in
England.
Taylor Branigan (04:05):
The witness didn't tell you I did, and she's
not a witness.
Charlie Incarica (04:07):
At that point, they break for what Ebner calls
his second lunch.
Ninety minutes later, they tryagain.
Chief Ebner (04:14):
Okay, we're just gonna film the names later.
Or, you know, whateves.
Um, uh, the time is uh oh well,shoot, I don't know if I watch,
homie.
Um let's say 2.30-ish?
And you're and you're sure Ican't tempt you with some wings,
Margaret.
Margaret Mandragora-Jones (04:28):
I'm hard pressed to think of an
offer less tempting.
Chief Ebner (04:31):
For the record, the wit I mean, the um anyway,
she's declined the offer of hotwings.
Taylor Branigan (04:36):
And an attorney.
Chief Ebner (04:38):
Yes.
You must think you're prettysmart if you say no to a lawyer.
Certainly think you're you'resmarter than I am, right?
But maybe not, Miss Margaret.
I mean, see this, you're sosmart, you have to ask yourself
how the man you're trying tomatch wits with got to be chief.
Margaret Mandragora-Jones (04:55):
From your appearance, I guess some
sort of competitive eatingcontest.
Chief Ebner (04:59):
My competitive eating is totally separate from
my job.
So it seems the tables haveturned.
Taylor Branigan (05:05):
What?
Can you account for yourwhereabouts late on the evening
of March 8th and early themorning of March 9th, 2020?
Margaret Mandragora-Jones (05:13):
I was at home.
I believe she was asking me.
I spent most of the evening asthe guest of Amanda Putnam Hart.
Chief Ebner (05:20):
Who just happens to be the murder victim?
Taylor Branigan (05:23):
A murder victim.
There were two other peoplekilled as well.
Chief Ebner (05:26):
Yes, I suppose I suppose that's technically true.
Taylor Branigan (05:29):
And when did you leave the party?
Margaret Mandragora-Jones (05:31):
I'm not exactly sure, if I'm honest.
I did spend a few hours laterthat night in an adjacent field.
Taylor Branigan (05:38):
Any witnesses who can corroborate this?
Christ, I hope not.
Charlie Incarica (05:43):
The interviews with Margaret didn't yield
anything, but Chief Ebnerinformed her she couldn't leave
town for the next few days.
Deputy Sheriff Branagan didn'tbelieve Margaret Mandragora
Jones was involved with thetriple homicide, but she did
have a theory about someoneelse.
Amanda Putnam Hart's estrangedhusband, William Hart.
Taylor Branigan (06:04):
I think any time one of the connections to
the deceased could be describedas estranged, that's the first
place you look.
Not to mention how bizarretheir relationship was to begin
with.
Charlie Incarica (06:14):
How do you mean?
Taylor Branigan (06:15):
Well, for one thing, I you know, I kind of
feel like you haven't invested awhole lot of time in
researching this, have you?
Charlie Incarica (06:22):
That was completely untrue for the most
part.
And also, I'd had lots of stuffon my plate the last few
months, including a breakup thathit me hard and was not my
fault.
As I think this podcast willdemonstrate, I am emotionally
available, Amy.
Anyway, I wanted to heardirectly from Deputy Sheriff
Brannigan, what basically Ialready knew.
Taylor Branigan (06:43):
The fact that a Hart and a Putnam got married
was really, well, surprising.
Estelle Hayes (06:48):
Everyone in town freaked the fuck out.
Charlie Incarica (06:50):
That's Estelle Hayes again.
Estelle Hayes (06:52):
Amanda Putnam was beautiful, smart, and powerful.
If she fell in love withWilliam Hart, it was the
clearest case of oppositesattracting in the history of
mammals.
Charlie Incarica (07:04):
William Giafredo Hart is the only child
of district attorney Alice Hart.
William's father died in acompellingly realistic civil war
reenactment when William wastwo, and a grief-stricken Alice
threw herself into her legalwork.
William was often lost amid thetumult of her career.
An unusually sensitive youngboy, William spent his school
(07:26):
years in various boardingschools, and his summers in
intense therapy recuperatingfrom various boarding schools.
Timid by nature, he was thefrequent target of bullies, who
teased him for his slight frame,short stature, and his love of
improv comedy.
His senior yearbook lists hischief interests as weighing
small items and sitting.
(07:47):
William opted not to go tocollege, deeply disappointing
his mother.
You have to wonder if perhapsthat might have been part of the
motivation for his decision.
After all, he had neverhonestly had any meaningful
relationship with Alice, and hisresentment must have run deep.
I'm just saying, it's importantto tell the people in your life
(08:08):
you love them.
And I think we'd all have toadmit, that's as emotionally
available as it gets.
In some respects, according toEstelle Hayes, the courtship and
marriage of William and Amandawas like a fairy tale.
Estelle Hayes (08:25):
Not very believable and pretty damn
short.
Charlie Incarica (08:28):
In 2018, Amanda Putnam tweeted she and
William were soulmates.
Her social media was soonreplete with tales of the two
attending gallas, eating out,and even weighing small objects
together.
She told reporters that theywere in each other's company all
the time, because they quote,really liked doing it.
She told friends that herrelationship was just like Romeo
(08:51):
and Juliet, confirming thesuspicion among her inner circle
she'd never read the play.
As for William, he wastypically mum on the topic.
He would on occasion invite areporter to sit down with him,
but it soon became clear thatfor William, this was just a
good excuse to indulge hispassion for sitting.
As for the idea of these twofamously feuding families
(09:12):
finally burying the hatchet,both Amanda Putnam and Alice
Hart went on record as saying itwas about time.
Estelle Hayes (09:20):
Think of it like this.
She was running for governorthat year, and suddenly Putnam
Pudding donates $10 million toher campaign?
That's one giant fuckload ofpuddings.
Look, Amanda Putnam was nodummy, and Alice Hart wasn't
(09:42):
either.
Her campaign needed an infusionof cash, and Amanda knew having
a mother-in-law as a governorwould likely be very good for
business.
Charlie Incarica (09:55):
The wedding took place on June 15th at the
Governor's Mansion, where Alicehad been living since earlier
that year.
Everything seemed perfect.
But was it all as perfect as itseemed?
Estelle Hayes (10:07):
Obviously not.
She ditched him for two otherpeople like six months later,
they know that already.
Charlie Incarica (10:34):
But was she basing this on more than the
fact he was upset about theirseparation?
Taylor Branigan (10:39):
I found out William Hart, despite being
soft-spoken, had a violenttemper.
In fact, he had severalaltercations, but his mother was
always able to get him out ofany jams.
He had no police record, butcops talk.
What's more, he had threatenedseveral co-workers with, you
guessed it, a knife.
Charlie Incarica (10:57):
This was disturbing to hear on a couple
of levels.
Not only was William Hart,obviously, a deeply troubled
soul, but if Alice Hart wascleaning up his legal messes,
this once promising advocate forthe people had become corrupt
too.
Wow, I'm surprised to hearAlice Hart would circumvent the
law like that.
Taylor Branigan (11:16):
She had been an immensely powerful figure for
nearly 30 years at that point.
And you know what they say.
Power corrupts.
Charlie Incarica (11:23):
Right.
Spider-Man.
I'm sorry?
That's a quote by Spider-Man,right?
Taylor Branigan (11:28):
No, Lord Acton, I think.
Charlie Incarica (11:31):
Didn't Spider-Man say something like
that too?
Taylor Branigan (11:33):
I really have no idea what we're talking about
now.
Charlie Incarica (11:37):
But I was right.
He said, with great power comesgreat responsibility.
Or someone in the movie did,which is close enough.
So Taylor Branagan had adilemma.
She had good reason toinvestigate William, but
couldn't really let anyone knowthat she was doing it.
At least not yet.
Because if she were going to goup against Alice Hart, she knew
(11:58):
she'd only have one chance.
Meanwhile, Chief Ebnercontinued to be ridiculed by the
press and public, and, well,pretty much everyone, as someone
who is in over his head.
Chief Ebner (12:11):
The complete blood and DNA tests have come back,
and all of them have confirmedthese samples are, in fact,
blood and DNA.
And trace amounts of hot sauce,but I'm told that's perfectly
normal in this type ofsituation.
Uh, any questions?
Charlie Incarica (12:24):
Did the test show any blood or DNA that isn't
from one of the victims?
Chief Ebner (12:28):
I'm very glad you asked that, because I never
thought to ask that.
I'll try to remember to ask anduh get back to you on that one.
Charlie Incarica (12:36):
The coroner released the bodies to their
respective families, and planswere made for a joint funeral
service the following week.
Taylor Branigan (12:43):
This was great news, as far as I was concerned.
It afforded a uniqueopportunity to observe not only
who attended the funeral, but togauge their behavior at it.
I was excited, especiallybecause the chief let me do this
without him because he said hefound funerals creepy.
Charlie Incarica (12:58):
But then.
It was awfully convenienttiming for Governor Alice Hart.
Taylor Branigan (13:06):
She shut down the entire state with the most
extreme restrictions in thecountry.
Charlie Incarica (13:11):
Deputy Sheriff Branagin was crestfallen.
Seeing no other option, shedecided to show her hand and ask
William Hart to come in forvirtual questioning.
I mean, come in virtually.
The questions weren't virtual,obviously.
She asked to Zoom with him thefollowing day, but a family
representative reached out topostpone, as his doctors had
(13:32):
ordered strict limits on hisamount of screen time.
They set the date for March17th, but on the morning of, his
family reached out again,informing her as it was St.
Patrick's Day, and that Williamhad recently converted to
Irishness, it would be a FirstAmendment violation.
Taylor Branigan (13:48):
They were clearly stalling, but I felt I
had to tread carefully.
Charlie Incarica (13:54):
Finally, on March 20th, 2020, he answered
her Zoom call.
Several things from thatinterview left her uneasy, and a
few of them were related to themurder.
Taylor Branigan (14:05):
He couldn't account for his whereabouts the
night of the murder, saying thathe had only spent most of the
night consoling himself bysitting.
But later he claimed he hadbeen up until after 1 a.m.
weighing guitar picks.
And yet when I asked him a fewminutes later to remind me what
he was weighing, he had clearlyforgotten what he said.
So in what I felt was a panictone of voice, he answered that
he had spent most of the nightweighing monopoly pieces.
(14:27):
His family sent over a copy ofhis weighing journal the next
morning, and sure enough, it hadboth guitar picks and monopoly
pieces listed.
But I felt that was dubious, tosay the least.
Charlie Incarica (14:38):
Did you share your thoughts with Chief Ebner?
Taylor Branigan (14:41):
I did.
And after I was able to explainwhat the word dubious meant, he
agreed to give me more latitudeto investigate William Hart,
though obviously he didn't usethe word latitude.
Charlie Incarica (14:51):
But Taylor Branigan wasn't content to focus
solely on Amanda's husband.
She also had suspicions abouther brother.
Taylor Branigan (15:00):
Teddy Putnam also seemed like a logical
candidate.
Estelle Hayes (15:02):
Teddy had almost ruined that company.
And when Amanda stepped in, shesaved it.
They were technically bothCEOs, but no one treated Teddy
with much respect, and itbothered him.
It would bother anyone, ofcourse, but Teddy had a
reputation for not handlingthings well.
Taylor Branigan (15:19):
I was torn about whether Teddy was capable
of actually killing his ownsister.
Not because she was family, butbecause it required a basic
degree of competence andfollow-through, which everyone
knew weren't strengths of his.
Charlie Incarica (15:31):
She isn't overstating here.
In 2004, in the most infamousexample of his lack of
commitment, he announced a newfamily philanthropic initiative,
Pudding Pals, a summer campwhere terminally ill children
would visit a speciallyoutfitted ranch to meet some of
their favorite celebrities,while continuing to receive
world-class medical care.
He worked diligently throughoutthe winter to ensure 75
(15:55):
children were enrolled free ofcharge, even going so far as to
arrange and pay for theirtransportation from all corners
of the U.S.
But by April, he'd lostinterest.
When the shuttle bus he'darranged to transport the
children from the airport to theranch arrived at the address of
the ranch, they found that notonly were there no celebrities
on hand to greet them, but therewas also no medical staff
(16:16):
either.
And the ranch hadn't even beenconverted from a shooting range.
In fact, it hadn't even stoppedbeing a shooting range.
Estelle Hayes (16:24):
That was horrible.
Just horrible.
Those small, sick childrencrying and trying their best to
hobble or limp back to the bus,which peeled off at the first
volley of gunfire.
Those little angels, justpicturing them having to lie
flat on the ground untilnightfall breaks my fucking
heart.
(16:45):
Thank God those kids from theChristian youth group snuck out
there that night to get stonedand screw, otherwise, those
babies might have died.
Charlie Incarica (16:56):
There was even a brief boycott of Shady Grove
Pudding, though that was clearlyan inappropriate way for people
to channel their frustrations.
Why deny these traumatizedchildren the consoling mouth hug
that only Shady Grove Puddingcan provide?
Hadn't the children sufferedenough?
Shady Grove Pudding, the bestfriend you'll ever have.
Jingle Singers (17:15):
When you want a pudding that you love, open up a
cup of shady grove.
Estelle Hayes (17:21):
Teddy's dad, Robert, was a useless moron, but
Teddy took that legacy and ranwith it.
Charlie Incarica (17:28):
So, Teddy perhaps had a motive and a
history of making poor choices.
On the other hand, stabbingthree people to death feels like
more work than Teddy wouldtypically be willing to put in.
But then there was this otherpoint.
Taylor Branigan (17:42):
After 9-11, Teddy had read that despite that
tragedy, you were more likelyto be killed by a vending
machine than a terrorist.
So Teddy started shootingvending machines.
Charlie Incarica (17:52):
Between November 2001 and February 2002,
Teddy gunned down more than 140vending machines in the Greater
Shady Grove area.
Hospitals, schools, it didn'tmatter.
Eventually, even the Putnamfamily name couldn't prevent
some form of consequence.
Taylor Branigan (18:09):
He didn't do any jail time.
He reached an agreement withthe judge where he had all guns
removed from his home, but itwas a close call.
He almost went to jail for tenyears.
Bear in mind, Teddy was aterrible shot, so the occasional
snack seeker or patient beingwheeled for x-rays would get
hit.
After that, Teddy swore hewould never use a gun again.
And of course, what were thevictims murdered with?
Charlie Incarica (18:31):
A not gun.
Taylor Branigan (18:32):
Right.
A knife.
Charlie Incarica (18:34):
Right, that's basically what I said.
Okay.
Taylor Branaghan had noshortage of theories, and no
shortage of suspects.
But while she was trying to putthe pieces together, she was
rocked by a stunningdevelopment.
On March 26th, at approximately8 30 that evening, Chief Tommy
Ebner was murdered inside ShadyHot Hot Wings.
Taylor Branigan (18:58):
It was.
Well, I mean, to say that itwas a shock is a tremendous
understatement.
Charlie Incarica (19:05):
I can imagine.
Now you not only had noshortage of theories and no
shortage of suspects, but youalso had no shortage of corpses.
What?
That came out wrong.
But I wasn't wrong.
Shady Grove was shaken andshocked.
And for the Shady Grove police,the mystery got more
(19:26):
mysterious.
Was this killing done by thesame killer who'd done the
killings previous to thiskilling?
It seemed likely.
And for the purpose of thispodcast, yes.
So, who would want to killAmanda Putnam Hart?
Her two partners, whose namesI'm blanking on for the moment,
(19:46):
and Tommy Ebner.
To figure this out, perhaps weshould start getting to know
Amanda Putnam Hart a littlebetter.
Which we will next time onepisode four of the murderer
killings.
Jingle Singers (20:00):
When you are the building that you love that you
love a building, let you learna building because you have
shady love shady love.
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