December 10, 2025 • 26 mins
Charles gets help untangling family history from Vanessa Holmes, author of the definitive biography of the Putnam Family, Blood Pudding. Unfortunately, Vanessa and Estelle are on sour terms, and when Estelle catches wind, she throws him out of her AirBnB. Charles’s fortunes take another hit as his girlfriend, Amy, has stopped answering his texts. We learn about the life of Amanda Putnam-Hart, from her time in Berlin as a pioneering pudding-based performance artist, to her tenure as the inspiring savior of the Putnam pudding empire, to her groundbreaking work as a murder victim.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Charlie Incarica (00:01):
In this episode, I examine the life and
death of Amanda Putnam Hart.
We'll dive deep into her past,as that's all she has at this
point.
We'll talk with people whoadmired and loved her, as well
as those who were openly hostiletowards the woman many credit
with saving the Shady GrovePudding Empire.
I also interviewed people whohad no feelings about her either
(00:24):
way, but I edited those out.
When we left off, the town hadjust learned of the brutal
murder of Chief Tommy Ebner.
Here's Estelle Hayes.
Estelle Hayes (00:39):
You have to understand, Tommy Ebner's murder
kicked the town's sense ofpanic into overdrive.
I mean, I'm not saying a brutaltriple homicide is anything to
sneeze at, but when it'sfollowed less than three weeks
later by the chief of policegetting stabbed, I mean even the
signboard outside the churchwhere the pastor usually puts up
Bible quotes read, shit'sgetting real.
Charlie Incarica (01:01):
I asked Deputy Sheriff Taylor Brannigan about
the police department'sreaction.
Taylor Branigan (01:06):
There wasn't a person on the force who wasn't
shaken and well, afraid.
There was also, of course, alot of anger.
Not helped by the fact that therestaurant was now a crime
scene and had to be shut downfor days.
Charlie Incarica (01:18):
No shady hot hot wings for a week.
Just when the town would haveneeded its patented recipe and
free blue cheese more than ever.
A cruel blow.
Taylor Branigan (01:31):
We set to work looking for any eyewitnesses.
Charlie Incarica (01:34):
Something that shouldn't have been an issue,
as it was inside a restaurant.
Taylor Branigan (01:37):
But this was at the start of lockdown, so no
one was allowed to eat in thedining area, but Tommy was the
chief of police, and well,nothing got in the way of Tommy
eating his wings.
But there was the restaurantstaff, which didn't help much
either.
Charlie Incaric (01:52):
Coincidentally, Elisa Mackenzie, the woman who
found Amanda Putnam Hart'scorpse, along with about two
others, was working behind thecounter that night.
Elisa McKenzie (02:02):
Yeah, I went out to tell him that cop or no cop,
there was a strict 30-minuteseating policy.
But then I was like, not again.
Charlie Incarica (02:10):
You could tell he was dead?
Elisa McKenzie (02:12):
Yeah.
I was starting to get good atit.
And I mean, we're used to acertain amount of bodily fluids
on the floor here, but not thatmuch blood.
His throat was cut.
Charlie Incarica (02:22):
Oh.
Elisa McKenzie (02:23):
I know, right?
Charlie Incarica (02:25):
And no one on the staff saw anyone else there?
Elisa McKenzie (02:27):
The thing is, we all take turns making this
shit.
The last thing we want is towatch people eat it.
Taylor Branigan (02:36):
No one claimed to have seen anyone, which is
hard to believe.
And their security cameraturned out to have been
disconnected.
Charlie Incarica (02:43):
Oh wow.
So the murderer had to haveaccess to disable it.
Taylor Branigan (02:47):
That's what I thought, but when I spoke to the
manager, he said he'd turn itoff a few years ago because the
sight of people eating thosewings on the video monitor was
really bad for morale.
Charlie Incarica (02:55):
And don't you think it's a bit of a
coincidence that Elisa McKenziewas the one to discover both
bodies?
Taylor Branigan (03:00):
Oh, of course.
That was the first thing thatjumped out, but it was hard to
think of any motive she couldpossibly have.
Charlie Incarica (03:05):
Right.
Although, of course, she didregularly speak with William
Hart.
Taylor Branigan (03:10):
What?
Charlie Incarica (03:11):
I told Taylor what Elisa mentioned to me at
the start of episode one aboutElisa's regular conversations
with William Hart, Amanda PutnamHart's ex-husband, which she
too found noteworthy.
And although I didn't expect tobe viewed as a hero for my
heroic work, I was a bitsurprised by her response.
Taylor Branigan (03:30):
Why the fuck didn't you say that before?
What the fuck, man?
Charlie Incarica (03:34):
Of course, this response was probably more
about her embarrassment at nothaving consulted me than my
having held back potentiallycrucial information in a murder
investigation.
But for now, let's focus onAmanda Putnam Hart.
Amanda Vanilla Chocolate SwirlPutnam was born on December 9,
1972, 25 minutes before her twinbrother Teddy.
(03:58):
She was by all accounts abright, precocious girl.
She had a distinct memory ofwaking up on her fifth birthday
to see two Shetland ponies forher and her brother in their
backyard, only to discover theybelonged to her father, who was
at the time trying to makeShetland pony racing a thing.
Though she grew up amidst vastwealth, it was by all accounts
(04:20):
an unhappy home, with Robert, afrequently absent and
emotionally unstable father, anda mother who resented Amanda
and Teddy for taking her awayfrom her true love, grifting the
elderly.
By 1980, Amanda's mother, whomshe had only known as Tammy the
Blade, had fled to run a shortcon selling home chairlifts to
(04:40):
seniors in Arizona.
Estelle Hayes (04:43):
I remember Amanda from when she was a little
girl.
She'd come into our little townlibrary van, look around at
some of the books she liked, andthen make her governess take
down the names of all herfavorites so her father could
buy them.
I tried to explain that alibrary was where you borrowed
books and then brought them backfor other children to read, but
she told me that sharing was asign of weakness.
(05:03):
You don't forget a phrase likethat come from the mouth of a
six-year-old.
Charlie Incarica (05:08):
When her second grade teacher reprimanded
her for stealing a classmate'slunch, Amanda told the teacher
she had, quote, more than enoughmoney in my piggy bank to put a
contract out on you.
Only when her father was calleddown to school with the piggy
bank, proving the veracity ofher claim, did the school
therapist sign off on her returnto class.
Amanda started boarding schoolin 1985, where her rebellious
(05:32):
streak remained as strong asever.
In 1987, a 14-year-old Amandabroke curfew at her boarding
school, missing the 1030 LightsOut deadline by five months,
spending the winter in Stadt,and later in Rio de Janeiro,
where she landed a gig as MTV'schief correspondent at Carnival.
Amanda Putnam Hart (05:52):
Welcome back to Springbreak Rio de Janeiro
and the Timber Zumicum favoriteshirt, but with the latest
memory and accident.
Vanessa Holmes (06:15):
She was, from the start, a a gifted but
troubled soul.
Charlie Incarica (06:20):
That's Vanessa Holmes, a best-selling author
whose works include biographiesof Grover Cleveland, Pope
Gregory IX, Grover Clevelandagain, and three of the Spice
Girls.
Her latest work has been hailedas the definitive biography of
the Putnam family, JustDesserts, which won the 2021
National Book Award for mostinsufferable title.
(06:41):
I'd meant to reach out to herbefore I started the podcast,
but as I mentioned in the lastepisode, Amy dumping me,
especially the way she did, atmy nephew's bar mitzvah, really
did a number on me, and I justflaked.
Anyway, here she is now.
Vanessa Holmes (06:57):
It would be easy to say that Amanda had a habit
of always falling in with thewrong crowd, but it's more
accurate to say Amanda was thewrong crowd that other people
later regretted falling in with.
Charlie Incarica (07:09):
Here's my question
this at sixteen?
Didn't her family worry whenshe disappeared from school?
Vanessa Holmes (07:15):
Robert barely knew where he was half the time.
The school tried to reach outto him, but Robert was largely
unreachable in those days.
He was moving around, scoutingideal locations to establish a
compound for a cult he wastrying to get off the ground.
As for Amanda's mother, well,Interpol couldn't drag her down,
so I doubt her boarding schoolwas going to have much luck.
Estelle Hayes (07:36):
Meanwhile, there's not a goddamn thing
Vanessa fucking Holmes can tellyou about the Putnams that I
can't.
Charlie Incarica (07:44):
Estelle was angry I'd enlisted Vanessa's
help, but it's always good toseek out multiple perspectives,
which I tried to explain to her.
But the more I tried toreassure Estelle she was an
invaluable resource, the moreirritated she became.
She kicked me out, and I wasforced to spend several days in
a hotel.
I think this is it.
Thank you.
Estelle Hayes (08:05):
Oh, can I The thing is, as troubled as Amanda
was in her teens, she alsoclearly had the brains and
sociopathic personality to run asuccessful company.
Charlie Incarica (08:17):
Do you think it was a simple case of sexism
that explains why she got passedover?
And um, how did you get into myhotel room?
Estelle Hayes (08:24):
You honestly think this is the first hotel
room I've broken into?
But no, I don't think it wasmisogyny.
Though I bet your preciousVanessa Holmes would say
otherwise.
By 1997, Amanda Putnam was afull-time party girl.
By then, she'd been widowedover a year.
She'd married an elderlymillionaire in late 1995.
Charlie Incarica (08:43):
She married a rich older man and just waited
for him to die?
Estelle Hayes (08:47):
Oh, yeah.
And she made sure she didn'thave to wait long.
The wedding was held in ahospice.
She had no interest in ShadyGrove or its pudding company at
that point.
She was independently wealthynow.
She didn't need her family,which is what she'd always
wanted.
Jesus, this many bars arepretty slim pickings.
It was ironic.
(09:08):
She was a celebrity in Germany.
She was in what seemed to be astable and loving relationship
with the German men's nationalsoccer team.
But by all accounts, she feltlonelier than ever.
Charlie Incarica (09:19):
So, if Amanda Putnam was wealthy, why did she
come back to Shady Grove in2008?
Well This is Vanessa again.
Vanessa Holmes (09:28):
Whom are you talking to?
Charlie Incarica (09:29):
Oh, sorry, I'm just clarifying for the
listeners that I'm talking toyou again and not Estelle.
Vanessa Holmes (09:34):
Estelle Hayes?
You're interviewing EstelleHayes for this?
Charlie Incarica (09:39):
Well, yes, she's been very helpful.
Vanessa Holmes (09:41):
She once tried to assault me, you know, at a
book signing of mine.
Charlie Incarica (09:45):
Oh god, um I'm so sorry.
Vanessa Holmes (09:48):
And afterwards still demanded I sign her book.
But I made damn sure myinscription was generic and
perfunctory.
Charlie Incarica (09:55):
Well, um anyway, you were saying about um
we'll get to 2008, but not yet.
Vanessa Holmes (10:01):
In the early 2000s, Amanda was living in
Berlin, where her artinstallations had earned her
some celebrity.
Charlie Incarica (10:07):
Amanda was an artist?
Vanessa Holmes (10:09):
She was a performance artist, so no.
Her work was consistentlypraised as gritty.
Her most famous installationinvolved inviting an audience
member to the stage to readaloud from a series of erotic
sonnets Amanda had written aboutracially insensitive sports
mascots.
While they were being read,Amanda sat in a corner and
(10:30):
brutally smashed musicalinstruments, kitchen appliances,
and hummel figurines with whatshe called the hammer of
righteous smashing, or derHammer des Gresten
Zirschwettens.
In another critically acclaimedpiece, she smeared herself in
pudding and made each audiencemember construct a shoebox
(10:51):
diorama illustrating why thethings they loved most were
shallow and pointless.
Charlie Incarica (10:57):
But while her performance art career was
flourishing, other facets of herlife were starting to fall
apart.
Her addiction to cocaine, aswell as various prescription
drugs, was becoming harder toignore.
Her friends considered anintervention, but then realized
that it would make it hard toshare her drugs if she didn't
have any.
Vanessa Holmes (11:17):
And her latest art installation titled Bring
Mir Drugen, or Bring Me Drugs,in which the audience had to
bring her ketamine and thenwatch her take it, was an
artistic and legal setback.
Charlie Incarica (11:30):
She was in the throes of a terrible personal
crisis and drug addiction, whichleft her broke.
Vanessa Holmes (11:36):
The good news is that forced her to come home
and get clean.
Although schools in Bogota arestill closed every December 9th
for Amanda's birthday, as thanksfor her contributions to
Columbia's economy.
Charlie Incarica (11:49):
Amanda returned to find Shady Grove
Pudding on the brink offinancial ruin.
Estelle Hayes (11:54):
Apparently, she just showed up at the office one
day, took one look at Teddy'spromotional plan of giving away
two packs of pudding percustomer if they promised to buy
a third pack at some pointduring the following fiscal
year, and asked him if he couldbring her a legal pad.
When he returned, all of hispersonal effects had been tossed
out, and Amanda had changed thelock.
Charlie Incarica (12:15):
The office, and indeed the company, was now
hers.
Here's Aaron Patterson, anin-house lawyer for SGP Holdings
from 1999 to 2014, describingthe vast cultural shift within
the company.
Co-worker (12:29):
Oh, you felt her effect immediately.
First of all, the dozens offoosball tables were gone, as
were the mandatory FoosballLeague games.
The meetings were verydifferent, too.
Charlie Incarica (12:40):
How so?
Co-worker (12:41):
Mostly in that they happened.
Charlie Incarica (12:43):
How was Amanda as a boss?
Co-worker (12:45):
Tough, but fair, although mostly just tough.
And the ethos of there are nostupid questions was very much
chucked out.
Amanda wasn't shy aboutpointing out in granular detail
exactly how and why a givenquestion was stupid.
Sometimes she'd use charts.
Charlie Incarica (13:04):
Sounds like she couldn't have been too
popular.
Co-worker (13:07):
Well, her job wasn't to be popular, and based on
that, I've seldom seen anyone bemore successful at their job.
Also, the company did turnaround.
Charlie Incarica (13:17):
Amanda's stewardship led to an almost
instant turnaround in sales.
She quickly replaced thecompany's old tagline, We both
know you're not going to the gymtoday.
Why not have pudding too?
With Shady Grove Pudding,putting the pudding in putting
some fun in your life.
Co-worker (13:33):
She had a lot of pun-based marketing, which
apparently tested well.
Personally, pun sap me of mywill to live.
But you can't argue with theresults.
Charlie Incarica (13:45):
By 2011, Shady Grove had recaptured the market
share that had been squanderedunder Teddy's leadership.
Then, in 2014, Amanda Putnamshowed she had the same killer
instinct, at leastmetaphorically, as her
grandfather.
Allegations of Bill Cosby'sdecades-long history of drugging
and assaulting women had becomebig news, and Amanda pounced on
(14:08):
the chance to kick her topcompetitor when it was down by
pouncing and kicking with anunprecedented 90-second ad that
ran during the Super Bowl.
Amanda Putnam Hart (14:18):
Hi, I'm Amanda Putnam, co-CEO of Shady
Grove Pudding andSemiconductors.
Normally, there's nothing Ilove more than chatting with
people about pudding, and to alesser extent, semiconducting.
But not today.
We've all heard about theheinous accusations against Bill
Cosby.
And while in America we believein the concept of innocent
(14:41):
until proven guilty, we alsobelieve he absolutely did it.
These unspeakable acts disgustme as a woman, a human being,
and most of all, as a proudpudding monger.
The cruelty he displayed andhis utter lack of remorse were
obviously fueled by pure eviland most likely large helpings
(15:04):
of one of our competitors'pudding.
Now, are we suggesting hiscorporate sponsors should be
viewed as equally guilty ofthese moral obscenities?
Yes.
Let me assure you, you'll neverfeel morally sickened at the
thought of buying our pudding.
That's the Shady Grove puddingpromise.
I don't see other puddingcompanies in America, which I
(15:27):
happen to think is the greatestcountry in the world, making the
same pledge.
Makes you wonder what the othercompanies have to hide, doesn't
it?
Could those dark secretsthey're definitely keeping from
you be as nauseating as thecrimes of Bill Cosby?
Why take that chance?
Shady Grove Pudding.
Buying it is the best way toshow the world you disapprove of
(15:51):
Bill Cosby.
Vanessa Holmes (15:52):
The infamous Cosby ad was universally
pilloried as crass, cynical, anddeeply insensitive.
Charlie Incarica (16:00):
Yet the next month, Shady Grove's market
share increased by anastonishing 34%.
For context, that's a fulleight points higher than 26%.
Vanessa Holmes (16:11):
This is when Amanda started receiving hostile
emails and even some deaththreats.
Charlie Incarica (16:16):
Who was sending them?
Who wasn't?
One email Amanda received inthe spring of 2019 did catch her
attention.
It was from Erica Hobbes.
If you'll remember, back in thefirst episode, that guy named
Guy mentioned her, and I saidshe'd come up again.
Well, she did.
(16:37):
Just now.
Vanessa Holmes (16:39):
Erica Hobbs.
Oh boy.
Erica Hobbs' emails weren'tthreatening in any way, at least
on the surface.
She emailed Amanda that she wasin Shady Grove and that she was
there for a reason.
Erica Hobbs was thegranddaughter of Walter Putnam.
Charlie Incarica (17:00):
To refresh your memory, Walter Putnam was
the one who apparently enjoyedmurdering sex workers.
He was the elder son of theoriginal pudding patriarch,
Edward Putnam Sr., and Walter'sdeath was likely engineered by
his younger brother Eddie.
Estelle Hayes (17:15):
Erica certainly made an impression in town.
She was quite vocal about herfamily's origin, so naturally
she drew attention.
Charlie Incarica (17:24):
Word of Erica's effect on the locals
reached Amanda quickly.
She understood Erica posed apotential threat to the
stability she'd finally broughtto the company and the town.
Estelle Hayes (17:35):
Erica's presence brought up some long-buried
wounds.
It was a reminder of the powerand corruption of the Putnam
family.
And even though those crimeshappened generations ago, the
Putnams were still in control.
So people started to speculateif they were still corrupt.
Or rather, just how corrupt.
Charlie Incarica (17:54):
So, Amanda was forced to take action.
Estelle Hayes (17:58):
But in order to do that, she had to meet her and
get a sense of who she wasdealing with.
Charlie Incarica (18:02):
This was Erica Hobbes' first trip to Shady
Grove.
However, it wasn't the firsttrip to Shady Grove for Erica
Hobbes.
Or rather, Anne Erica Hobbes.
Because somehow, it turned outthere were two Erica Hobbes.
Nor was Erica Hobbes.
I mean the Erica Hobbes whovisited after the first Erica
(18:23):
Hobbes visited first.
In other words, I'm referringto the Erica Hobbes we're
discussing now, although Irealize as I'm saying this,
we're now talking about bothErica Hobbes's at this point.
But okay, it's this seconditeration of Erica Hobbes,
although she was the first EricaHobbes to be mentioned here,
also wasn't the first EricaHobbes to have reached out to
(18:44):
the Putnams as Erica Hobbes.
That distinction belongs toErica Hobbes.
Estelle Hayes (18:51):
Erica Hobbes was named after her mother.
Charlie Incarica (18:54):
Exactly.
Erica Hobbes, the elder, wasWalter's younger daughter
Catherine.
She was renamed Erica by hermother to throw anyone searching
for them off the scent, vastlyoverestimating how consequential
they were.
And in February of 1983, shearrived at Shady Grove Pudding's
executive offices to find hercousin, Robert Putnam.
Vanessa Holmes (19:15):
Unfortunately for Erica, going to his office
was perhaps the least effectiveway to see Robert.
Her uncle Eddie Jr.
was also nowhere to be found.
He spent that spring lecturingon economics at Princeton
University.
Or he was until that April whenthe administration realized no
one had invited him to.
Charlie Incarica (19:36):
After two weeks of patiently waiting,
Erica got a chance to meet withRobert when he arrived to
oversee the installation of aMs.
Pac Man console in his office.
Vanessa Holmes (19:46):
Robert barely knew about Walter's existence.
He was rarely spoken of, andwhen he was, Robert usually
wasn't paying attention.
So in between rounds of Ms.
Pac-Man, Erica filled him in onthe history of the family he'd
never known.
Erica's mother had taken thegirls and settled temporarily in
Portland, Oregon, where theytook their mother's maiden name,
(20:07):
Hobbes.
Before they left, Edward Sr.
promised them they would neverwant for anything.
But his first package to them,three cubic tons of tapioca
pudding, confirmed hersuspicions that her
father-in-law was too derangedto be of any help.
Charlie Incarica (20:24):
Erica's mother sold the pudding on the black
market and used the proceeds tomove abroad.
Vanessa Holmes (20:30):
On her deathbed, she told her daughters about
their connection to the Putnamfamily fortune and urged them to
fight for what was rightfullytheirs.
Charlie Incarica (20:40):
Her older sister had decided to not pursue
anything involving the Putnams,opting for a quiet life as a
geography teacher.
Erica, on the other hand,wanted answers.
But, according to Vanessa, anycordiality between the cousins
that day soon evaporated, afterErica demanded to see their
grandfather, and had alsosecured the top five high scores
(21:03):
in Miss Pac-Man.
Vanessa Holmes (21:04):
Things deteriorated very quickly after
that.
Robert refused to let her seetheir grandfather.
So Erica went to Princeton toconfront her uncle.
Charlie Incarica (21:14):
Not even Vanessa knows what happened
next.
Erica and Eddie were seenleaving campus together, but she
was never seen again.
Estelle Hayes (21:23):
So back to 2019, Amanda invited Erica's daughter
Erica out to her estate.
It's a ridiculously poshmansion.
I've never been there, but byall accounts, it's really over
the top.
The guest house is the secondlargest home in Shady Grove,
after her actual house, and theguest house has its own guest
house.
It kinda made Erica happy.
(21:44):
And Amanda was too shrewd notto realize it.
It was a power play.
Charlie Incarica (21:48):
What do you think Erica wanted from Amanda?
Estelle Hayes (21:50):
I can't imagine money wasn't a part of it.
But it seemed it was morepersonal than just pudding.
It was about trying to findsome closure for her mother and
herself.
Charlie Incarica (21:59):
It's hard to imagine what closure would even
look like.
Estelle Hayes (22:02):
The thing is, Amanda wasn't responsible for
what happened to Erica's mother.
Charlie Incarica (22:06):
Who was also named Erica.
Estelle Hayes (22:08):
What is your deal with that?
Charlie Incarica (22:10):
What?
Estelle Hayes (22:11):
You just seem disproportionately confused by
the fact a mother and daughterhave the same name.
Charlie Incarica (22:16):
Yeah, I'm sorry.
To be honest, Amy hadn't beenreturning my texts, and I hadn't
been sleeping well, because thepillows at the new hotel were
very thin.
I tried explaining this toEstelle.
Estelle Hayes (22:26):
Well, you've got Vanessa fucking homes and her
generic and perfunctoryinscriptions to blame for that.
Anyway, Amanda didn't killErica's mother.
But on the other hand, I don'tthink she was the kind of person
who's much good at empathy.
Charlie Incarica (22:40):
Erica Sr.
Estelle Hayes (22:41):
Amanda, for fuck's sake.
Jesus.
For all of her talents, Amandanever got the hang of faking
sincerity.
Right.
I'm sorry I snapped just now.
Do you want to talk about Amy?
Charlie Incarica (22:53):
No.
Well, I've just been reallystruggling.
Estelle Hayes (22:56):
See, all she had to do was fake it like I just
did, and it would have saved alot of ugliness.
And who knows, maybe evenAmanda's life.
Charlie Incarica (23:03):
Erica left Shady Grove the following
morning, but returned two weekslater, bringing her lawyer with
her.
She called a press conference.
Erica Hobbs (23:11):
I came to Shady Grove because I wanted to
connect with my cousins.
But Amanda Putnam told me thatshe would never let me be a part
of her life.
Or her empire made of pudding,which is made of blood.
Which my attorney advises me Ihave to make clear the part
about the blood is a metaphor.
She claims I'm only interestedin money.
(23:32):
Nothing could be further fromthe truth.
This is why today I'mannouncing I'm seeking
forty-three point eight milliondollars in damages from the
Putnam family for emotionalcruelty.
And now, after a briefstatement from my attorney, I'll
be happy to answer questions.
Co-worker (23:50):
Thank you, Erica.
We will not be answering anyquestions at this time.
Estelle Hayes (23:57):
After that, Amanda made her play, and it was
a brilliant one.
Vanessa Holmes (24:07):
She saw Alice Hart was struggling to win her
run for governor, and suddenlyAmanda and William are in love.
And the Hart campaign has asubstantial war chest.
Amanda's lawyers delayed anddelayed the trial until the
summer of 2019.
But the first thing Alice Hartdid as governor is sign a bill
into law banning frivolouslawsuits, which were defined in
(24:31):
the legislation as anythingbased on feelings.
Charlie Incarica (24:36):
So it would seem that Governor Alice Hart,
who had been given great power,did not handle the great
responsibility that came with itgreatly.
And Erica Hobbes went intohiding.
Estelle Hayes (24:47):
She went full hermit, which she posted about
daily on TikTok with the handleat Pudding Ditch 1938.
Charlie Incarica (24:55):
So, by March 2020, Erica Hobbes' daughter,
Erica Hobbes, could be added tothe list of people who had a
clear motive for murder.
And Alisa McKenzie seems tohave had unique access to each
of the murder victims.
I know at the top of theepisode, I said we'd talk to
people who knew and lovedAmanda, but we sort of rolled
(25:16):
snake eyes on that every time welooked for one.
Anyway, in episode 5, the plotand the pudding thicken.
And this continues to be theMurderer Killings.
In this episode, I examine the life and
death of Amanda Putnam Hart.
We'll dive deep into her past,as that's all she has at this
point.
We'll talk with people whoadmired and loved her, as well
as those who were openly hostiletowards the woman many credit
with saving the Shady GrovePudding Empire.
I also interviewed people whohad no feelings about her either
(00:24):
way, but I edited those out.
When we left off, the town hadjust learned of the brutal
murder of Chief Tommy Ebner.
Here's Estelle Hayes.
Estelle Hayes (00:39):
You have to understand, Tommy Ebner's murder
kicked the town's sense ofpanic into overdrive.
I mean, I'm not saying a brutaltriple homicide is anything to
sneeze at, but when it'sfollowed less than three weeks
later by the chief of policegetting stabbed, I mean even the
signboard outside the churchwhere the pastor usually puts up
Bible quotes read, shit'sgetting real.
Charlie Incarica (01:01):
I asked Deputy Sheriff Taylor Brannigan about
the police department'sreaction.
Taylor Branigan (01:06):
There wasn't a person on the force who wasn't
shaken and well, afraid.
There was also, of course, alot of anger.
Not helped by the fact that therestaurant was now a crime
scene and had to be shut downfor days.
Charlie Incarica (01:18):
No shady hot hot wings for a week.
Just when the town would haveneeded its patented recipe and
free blue cheese more than ever.
A cruel blow.
Taylor Branigan (01:31):
We set to work looking for any eyewitnesses.
Charlie Incarica (01:34):
Something that shouldn't have been an issue,
as it was inside a restaurant.
Taylor Branigan (01:37):
But this was at the start of lockdown, so no
one was allowed to eat in thedining area, but Tommy was the
chief of police, and well,nothing got in the way of Tommy
eating his wings.
But there was the restaurantstaff, which didn't help much
either.
Charlie Incaric (01:52):
Coincidentally, Elisa Mackenzie, the woman who
found Amanda Putnam Hart'scorpse, along with about two
others, was working behind thecounter that night.
Elisa McKenzie (02:02):
Yeah, I went out to tell him that cop or no cop,
there was a strict 30-minuteseating policy.
But then I was like, not again.
Charlie Incarica (02:10):
You could tell he was dead?
Elisa McKenzie (02:12):
Yeah.
I was starting to get good atit.
And I mean, we're used to acertain amount of bodily fluids
on the floor here, but not thatmuch blood.
His throat was cut.
Charlie Incarica (02:22):
Oh.
Elisa McKenzie (02:23):
I know, right?
Charlie Incarica (02:25):
And no one on the staff saw anyone else there?
Elisa McKenzie (02:27):
The thing is, we all take turns making this
shit.
The last thing we want is towatch people eat it.
Taylor Branigan (02:36):
No one claimed to have seen anyone, which is
hard to believe.
And their security cameraturned out to have been
disconnected.
Charlie Incarica (02:43):
Oh wow.
So the murderer had to haveaccess to disable it.
Taylor Branigan (02:47):
That's what I thought, but when I spoke to the
manager, he said he'd turn itoff a few years ago because the
sight of people eating thosewings on the video monitor was
really bad for morale.
Charlie Incarica (02:55):
And don't you think it's a bit of a
coincidence that Elisa McKenziewas the one to discover both
bodies?
Taylor Branigan (03:00):
Oh, of course.
That was the first thing thatjumped out, but it was hard to
think of any motive she couldpossibly have.
Charlie Incarica (03:05):
Right.
Although, of course, she didregularly speak with William
Hart.
Taylor Branigan (03:10):
What?
Charlie Incarica (03:11):
I told Taylor what Elisa mentioned to me at
the start of episode one aboutElisa's regular conversations
with William Hart, Amanda PutnamHart's ex-husband, which she
too found noteworthy.
And although I didn't expect tobe viewed as a hero for my
heroic work, I was a bitsurprised by her response.
Taylor Branigan (03:30):
Why the fuck didn't you say that before?
What the fuck, man?
Charlie Incarica (03:34):
Of course, this response was probably more
about her embarrassment at nothaving consulted me than my
having held back potentiallycrucial information in a murder
investigation.
But for now, let's focus onAmanda Putnam Hart.
Amanda Vanilla Chocolate SwirlPutnam was born on December 9,
1972, 25 minutes before her twinbrother Teddy.
(03:58):
She was by all accounts abright, precocious girl.
She had a distinct memory ofwaking up on her fifth birthday
to see two Shetland ponies forher and her brother in their
backyard, only to discover theybelonged to her father, who was
at the time trying to makeShetland pony racing a thing.
Though she grew up amidst vastwealth, it was by all accounts
(04:20):
an unhappy home, with Robert, afrequently absent and
emotionally unstable father, anda mother who resented Amanda
and Teddy for taking her awayfrom her true love, grifting the
elderly.
By 1980, Amanda's mother, whomshe had only known as Tammy the
Blade, had fled to run a shortcon selling home chairlifts to
(04:40):
seniors in Arizona.
Estelle Hayes (04:43):
I remember Amanda from when she was a little
girl.
She'd come into our little townlibrary van, look around at
some of the books she liked, andthen make her governess take
down the names of all herfavorites so her father could
buy them.
I tried to explain that alibrary was where you borrowed
books and then brought them backfor other children to read, but
she told me that sharing was asign of weakness.
(05:03):
You don't forget a phrase likethat come from the mouth of a
six-year-old.
Charlie Incarica (05:08):
When her second grade teacher reprimanded
her for stealing a classmate'slunch, Amanda told the teacher
she had, quote, more than enoughmoney in my piggy bank to put a
contract out on you.
Only when her father was calleddown to school with the piggy
bank, proving the veracity ofher claim, did the school
therapist sign off on her returnto class.
Amanda started boarding schoolin 1985, where her rebellious
(05:32):
streak remained as strong asever.
In 1987, a 14-year-old Amandabroke curfew at her boarding
school, missing the 1030 LightsOut deadline by five months,
spending the winter in Stadt,and later in Rio de Janeiro,
where she landed a gig as MTV'schief correspondent at Carnival.
Amanda Putnam Hart (05:52):
Welcome back to Springbreak Rio de Janeiro
and the Timber Zumicum favoriteshirt, but with the latest
memory and accident.
Vanessa Holmes (06:15):
She was, from the start, a a gifted but
troubled soul.
Charlie Incarica (06:20):
That's Vanessa Holmes, a best-selling author
whose works include biographiesof Grover Cleveland, Pope
Gregory IX, Grover Clevelandagain, and three of the Spice
Girls.
Her latest work has been hailedas the definitive biography of
the Putnam family, JustDesserts, which won the 2021
National Book Award for mostinsufferable title.
(06:41):
I'd meant to reach out to herbefore I started the podcast,
but as I mentioned in the lastepisode, Amy dumping me,
especially the way she did, atmy nephew's bar mitzvah, really
did a number on me, and I justflaked.
Anyway, here she is now.
Vanessa Holmes (06:57):
It would be easy to say that Amanda had a habit
of always falling in with thewrong crowd, but it's more
accurate to say Amanda was thewrong crowd that other people
later regretted falling in with.
Charlie Incarica (07:09):
Here's my question
this at sixteen?
Didn't her family worry whenshe disappeared from school?
Vanessa Holmes (07:15):
Robert barely knew where he was half the time.
The school tried to reach outto him, but Robert was largely
unreachable in those days.
He was moving around, scoutingideal locations to establish a
compound for a cult he wastrying to get off the ground.
As for Amanda's mother, well,Interpol couldn't drag her down,
so I doubt her boarding schoolwas going to have much luck.
Estelle Hayes (07:36):
Meanwhile, there's not a goddamn thing
Vanessa fucking Holmes can tellyou about the Putnams that I
can't.
Charlie Incarica (07:44):
Estelle was angry I'd enlisted Vanessa's
help, but it's always good toseek out multiple perspectives,
which I tried to explain to her.
But the more I tried toreassure Estelle she was an
invaluable resource, the moreirritated she became.
She kicked me out, and I wasforced to spend several days in
a hotel.
I think this is it.
Thank you.
Estelle Hayes (08:05):
Oh, can I The thing is, as troubled as Amanda
was in her teens, she alsoclearly had the brains and
sociopathic personality to run asuccessful company.
Charlie Incarica (08:17):
Do you think it was a simple case of sexism
that explains why she got passedover?
And um, how did you get into myhotel room?
Estelle Hayes (08:24):
You honestly think this is the first hotel
room I've broken into?
But no, I don't think it wasmisogyny.
Though I bet your preciousVanessa Holmes would say
otherwise.
By 1997, Amanda Putnam was afull-time party girl.
By then, she'd been widowedover a year.
She'd married an elderlymillionaire in late 1995.
Charlie Incarica (08:43):
She married a rich older man and just waited
for him to die?
Estelle Hayes (08:47):
Oh, yeah.
And she made sure she didn'thave to wait long.
The wedding was held in ahospice.
She had no interest in ShadyGrove or its pudding company at
that point.
She was independently wealthynow.
She didn't need her family,which is what she'd always
wanted.
Jesus, this many bars arepretty slim pickings.
It was ironic.
(09:08):
She was a celebrity in Germany.
She was in what seemed to be astable and loving relationship
with the German men's nationalsoccer team.
But by all accounts, she feltlonelier than ever.
Charlie Incarica (09:19):
So, if Amanda Putnam was wealthy, why did she
come back to Shady Grove in2008?
Well This is Vanessa again.
Vanessa Holmes (09:28):
Whom are you talking to?
Charlie Incarica (09:29):
Oh, sorry, I'm just clarifying for the
listeners that I'm talking toyou again and not Estelle.
Vanessa Holmes (09:34):
Estelle Hayes?
You're interviewing EstelleHayes for this?
Charlie Incarica (09:39):
Well, yes, she's been very helpful.
Vanessa Holmes (09:41):
She once tried to assault me, you know, at a
book signing of mine.
Charlie Incarica (09:45):
Oh god, um I'm so sorry.
Vanessa Holmes (09:48):
And afterwards still demanded I sign her book.
But I made damn sure myinscription was generic and
perfunctory.
Charlie Incarica (09:55):
Well, um anyway, you were saying about um
we'll get to 2008, but not yet.
Vanessa Holmes (10:01):
In the early 2000s, Amanda was living in
Berlin, where her artinstallations had earned her
some celebrity.
Charlie Incarica (10:07):
Amanda was an artist?
Vanessa Holmes (10:09):
She was a performance artist, so no.
Her work was consistentlypraised as gritty.
Her most famous installationinvolved inviting an audience
member to the stage to readaloud from a series of erotic
sonnets Amanda had written aboutracially insensitive sports
mascots.
While they were being read,Amanda sat in a corner and
(10:30):
brutally smashed musicalinstruments, kitchen appliances,
and hummel figurines with whatshe called the hammer of
righteous smashing, or derHammer des Gresten
Zirschwettens.
In another critically acclaimedpiece, she smeared herself in
pudding and made each audiencemember construct a shoebox
(10:51):
diorama illustrating why thethings they loved most were
shallow and pointless.
Charlie Incarica (10:57):
But while her performance art career was
flourishing, other facets of herlife were starting to fall
apart.
Her addiction to cocaine, aswell as various prescription
drugs, was becoming harder toignore.
Her friends considered anintervention, but then realized
that it would make it hard toshare her drugs if she didn't
have any.
Vanessa Holmes (11:17):
And her latest art installation titled Bring
Mir Drugen, or Bring Me Drugs,in which the audience had to
bring her ketamine and thenwatch her take it, was an
artistic and legal setback.
Charlie Incarica (11:30):
She was in the throes of a terrible personal
crisis and drug addiction, whichleft her broke.
Vanessa Holmes (11:36):
The good news is that forced her to come home
and get clean.
Although schools in Bogota arestill closed every December 9th
for Amanda's birthday, as thanksfor her contributions to
Columbia's economy.
Charlie Incarica (11:49):
Amanda returned to find Shady Grove
Pudding on the brink offinancial ruin.
Estelle Hayes (11:54):
Apparently, she just showed up at the office one
day, took one look at Teddy'spromotional plan of giving away
two packs of pudding percustomer if they promised to buy
a third pack at some pointduring the following fiscal
year, and asked him if he couldbring her a legal pad.
When he returned, all of hispersonal effects had been tossed
out, and Amanda had changed thelock.
Charlie Incarica (12:15):
The office, and indeed the company, was now
hers.
Here's Aaron Patterson, anin-house lawyer for SGP Holdings
from 1999 to 2014, describingthe vast cultural shift within
the company.
Co-worker (12:29):
Oh, you felt her effect immediately.
First of all, the dozens offoosball tables were gone, as
were the mandatory FoosballLeague games.
The meetings were verydifferent, too.
Charlie Incarica (12:40):
How so?
Co-worker (12:41):
Mostly in that they happened.
Charlie Incarica (12:43):
How was Amanda as a boss?
Co-worker (12:45):
Tough, but fair, although mostly just tough.
And the ethos of there are nostupid questions was very much
chucked out.
Amanda wasn't shy aboutpointing out in granular detail
exactly how and why a givenquestion was stupid.
Sometimes she'd use charts.
Charlie Incarica (13:04):
Sounds like she couldn't have been too
popular.
Co-worker (13:07):
Well, her job wasn't to be popular, and based on
that, I've seldom seen anyone bemore successful at their job.
Also, the company did turnaround.
Charlie Incarica (13:17):
Amanda's stewardship led to an almost
instant turnaround in sales.
She quickly replaced thecompany's old tagline, We both
know you're not going to the gymtoday.
Why not have pudding too?
With Shady Grove Pudding,putting the pudding in putting
some fun in your life.
Co-worker (13:33):
She had a lot of pun-based marketing, which
apparently tested well.
Personally, pun sap me of mywill to live.
But you can't argue with theresults.
Charlie Incarica (13:45):
By 2011, Shady Grove had recaptured the market
share that had been squanderedunder Teddy's leadership.
Then, in 2014, Amanda Putnamshowed she had the same killer
instinct, at leastmetaphorically, as her
grandfather.
Allegations of Bill Cosby'sdecades-long history of drugging
and assaulting women had becomebig news, and Amanda pounced on
(14:08):
the chance to kick her topcompetitor when it was down by
pouncing and kicking with anunprecedented 90-second ad that
ran during the Super Bowl.
Amanda Putnam Hart (14:18):
Hi, I'm Amanda Putnam, co-CEO of Shady
Grove Pudding andSemiconductors.
Normally, there's nothing Ilove more than chatting with
people about pudding, and to alesser extent, semiconducting.
But not today.
We've all heard about theheinous accusations against Bill
Cosby.
And while in America we believein the concept of innocent
(14:41):
until proven guilty, we alsobelieve he absolutely did it.
These unspeakable acts disgustme as a woman, a human being,
and most of all, as a proudpudding monger.
The cruelty he displayed andhis utter lack of remorse were
obviously fueled by pure eviland most likely large helpings
(15:04):
of one of our competitors'pudding.
Now, are we suggesting hiscorporate sponsors should be
viewed as equally guilty ofthese moral obscenities?
Yes.
Let me assure you, you'll neverfeel morally sickened at the
thought of buying our pudding.
That's the Shady Grove puddingpromise.
I don't see other puddingcompanies in America, which I
(15:27):
happen to think is the greatestcountry in the world, making the
same pledge.
Makes you wonder what the othercompanies have to hide, doesn't
it?
Could those dark secretsthey're definitely keeping from
you be as nauseating as thecrimes of Bill Cosby?
Why take that chance?
Shady Grove Pudding.
Buying it is the best way toshow the world you disapprove of
(15:51):
Bill Cosby.
Vanessa Holmes (15:52):
The infamous Cosby ad was universally
pilloried as crass, cynical, anddeeply insensitive.
Charlie Incarica (16:00):
Yet the next month, Shady Grove's market
share increased by anastonishing 34%.
For context, that's a fulleight points higher than 26%.
Vanessa Holmes (16:11):
This is when Amanda started receiving hostile
emails and even some deaththreats.
Charlie Incarica (16:16):
Who was sending them?
Who wasn't?
One email Amanda received inthe spring of 2019 did catch her
attention.
It was from Erica Hobbes.
If you'll remember, back in thefirst episode, that guy named
Guy mentioned her, and I saidshe'd come up again.
Well, she did.
(16:37):
Just now.
Vanessa Holmes (16:39):
Erica Hobbs.
Oh boy.
Erica Hobbs' emails weren'tthreatening in any way, at least
on the surface.
She emailed Amanda that she wasin Shady Grove and that she was
there for a reason.
Erica Hobbs was thegranddaughter of Walter Putnam.
Charlie Incarica (17:00):
To refresh your memory, Walter Putnam was
the one who apparently enjoyedmurdering sex workers.
He was the elder son of theoriginal pudding patriarch,
Edward Putnam Sr., and Walter'sdeath was likely engineered by
his younger brother Eddie.
Estelle Hayes (17:15):
Erica certainly made an impression in town.
She was quite vocal about herfamily's origin, so naturally
she drew attention.
Charlie Incarica (17:24):
Word of Erica's effect on the locals
reached Amanda quickly.
She understood Erica posed apotential threat to the
stability she'd finally broughtto the company and the town.
Estelle Hayes (17:35):
Erica's presence brought up some long-buried
wounds.
It was a reminder of the powerand corruption of the Putnam
family.
And even though those crimeshappened generations ago, the
Putnams were still in control.
So people started to speculateif they were still corrupt.
Or rather, just how corrupt.
Charlie Incarica (17:54):
So, Amanda was forced to take action.
Estelle Hayes (17:58):
But in order to do that, she had to meet her and
get a sense of who she wasdealing with.
Charlie Incarica (18:02):
This was Erica Hobbes' first trip to Shady
Grove.
However, it wasn't the firsttrip to Shady Grove for Erica
Hobbes.
Or rather, Anne Erica Hobbes.
Because somehow, it turned outthere were two Erica Hobbes.
Nor was Erica Hobbes.
I mean the Erica Hobbes whovisited after the first Erica
(18:23):
Hobbes visited first.
In other words, I'm referringto the Erica Hobbes we're
discussing now, although Irealize as I'm saying this,
we're now talking about bothErica Hobbes's at this point.
But okay, it's this seconditeration of Erica Hobbes,
although she was the first EricaHobbes to be mentioned here,
also wasn't the first EricaHobbes to have reached out to
(18:44):
the Putnams as Erica Hobbes.
That distinction belongs toErica Hobbes.
Estelle Hayes (18:51):
Erica Hobbes was named after her mother.
Charlie Incarica (18:54):
Exactly.
Erica Hobbes, the elder, wasWalter's younger daughter
Catherine.
She was renamed Erica by hermother to throw anyone searching
for them off the scent, vastlyoverestimating how consequential
they were.
And in February of 1983, shearrived at Shady Grove Pudding's
executive offices to find hercousin, Robert Putnam.
Vanessa Holmes (19:15):
Unfortunately for Erica, going to his office
was perhaps the least effectiveway to see Robert.
Her uncle Eddie Jr.
was also nowhere to be found.
He spent that spring lecturingon economics at Princeton
University.
Or he was until that April whenthe administration realized no
one had invited him to.
Charlie Incarica (19:36):
After two weeks of patiently waiting,
Erica got a chance to meet withRobert when he arrived to
oversee the installation of aMs.
Pac Man console in his office.
Vanessa Holmes (19:46):
Robert barely knew about Walter's existence.
He was rarely spoken of, andwhen he was, Robert usually
wasn't paying attention.
So in between rounds of Ms.
Pac-Man, Erica filled him in onthe history of the family he'd
never known.
Erica's mother had taken thegirls and settled temporarily in
Portland, Oregon, where theytook their mother's maiden name,
(20:07):
Hobbes.
Before they left, Edward Sr.
promised them they would neverwant for anything.
But his first package to them,three cubic tons of tapioca
pudding, confirmed hersuspicions that her
father-in-law was too derangedto be of any help.
Charlie Incarica (20:24):
Erica's mother sold the pudding on the black
market and used the proceeds tomove abroad.
Vanessa Holmes (20:30):
On her deathbed, she told her daughters about
their connection to the Putnamfamily fortune and urged them to
fight for what was rightfullytheirs.
Charlie Incarica (20:40):
Her older sister had decided to not pursue
anything involving the Putnams,opting for a quiet life as a
geography teacher.
Erica, on the other hand,wanted answers.
But, according to Vanessa, anycordiality between the cousins
that day soon evaporated, afterErica demanded to see their
grandfather, and had alsosecured the top five high scores
(21:03):
in Miss Pac-Man.
Vanessa Holmes (21:04):
Things deteriorated very quickly after
that.
Robert refused to let her seetheir grandfather.
So Erica went to Princeton toconfront her uncle.
Charlie Incarica (21:14):
Not even Vanessa knows what happened
next.
Erica and Eddie were seenleaving campus together, but she
was never seen again.
Estelle Hayes (21:23):
So back to 2019, Amanda invited Erica's daughter
Erica out to her estate.
It's a ridiculously poshmansion.
I've never been there, but byall accounts, it's really over
the top.
The guest house is the secondlargest home in Shady Grove,
after her actual house, and theguest house has its own guest
house.
It kinda made Erica happy.
(21:44):
And Amanda was too shrewd notto realize it.
It was a power play.
Charlie Incarica (21:48):
What do you think Erica wanted from Amanda?
Estelle Hayes (21:50):
I can't imagine money wasn't a part of it.
But it seemed it was morepersonal than just pudding.
It was about trying to findsome closure for her mother and
herself.
Charlie Incarica (21:59):
It's hard to imagine what closure would even
look like.
Estelle Hayes (22:02):
The thing is, Amanda wasn't responsible for
what happened to Erica's mother.
Charlie Incarica (22:06):
Who was also named Erica.
Estelle Hayes (22:08):
What is your deal with that?
Charlie Incarica (22:10):
What?
Estelle Hayes (22:11):
You just seem disproportionately confused by
the fact a mother and daughterhave the same name.
Charlie Incarica (22:16):
Yeah, I'm sorry.
To be honest, Amy hadn't beenreturning my texts, and I hadn't
been sleeping well, because thepillows at the new hotel were
very thin.
I tried explaining this toEstelle.
Estelle Hayes (22:26):
Well, you've got Vanessa fucking homes and her
generic and perfunctoryinscriptions to blame for that.
Anyway, Amanda didn't killErica's mother.
But on the other hand, I don'tthink she was the kind of person
who's much good at empathy.
Charlie Incarica (22:40):
Erica Sr.
Estelle Hayes (22:41):
Amanda, for fuck's sake.
Jesus.
For all of her talents, Amandanever got the hang of faking
sincerity.
Right.
I'm sorry I snapped just now.
Do you want to talk about Amy?
Charlie Incarica (22:53):
No.
Well, I've just been reallystruggling.
Estelle Hayes (22:56):
See, all she had to do was fake it like I just
did, and it would have saved alot of ugliness.
And who knows, maybe evenAmanda's life.
Charlie Incarica (23:03):
Erica left Shady Grove the following
morning, but returned two weekslater, bringing her lawyer with
her.
She called a press conference.
Erica Hobbs (23:11):
I came to Shady Grove because I wanted to
connect with my cousins.
But Amanda Putnam told me thatshe would never let me be a part
of her life.
Or her empire made of pudding,which is made of blood.
Which my attorney advises me Ihave to make clear the part
about the blood is a metaphor.
She claims I'm only interestedin money.
(23:32):
Nothing could be further fromthe truth.
This is why today I'mannouncing I'm seeking
forty-three point eight milliondollars in damages from the
Putnam family for emotionalcruelty.
And now, after a briefstatement from my attorney, I'll
be happy to answer questions.
Co-worker (23:50):
Thank you, Erica.
We will not be answering anyquestions at this time.
Estelle Hayes (23:57):
After that, Amanda made her play, and it was
a brilliant one.
Vanessa Holmes (24:07):
She saw Alice Hart was struggling to win her
run for governor, and suddenlyAmanda and William are in love.
And the Hart campaign has asubstantial war chest.
Amanda's lawyers delayed anddelayed the trial until the
summer of 2019.
But the first thing Alice Hartdid as governor is sign a bill
into law banning frivolouslawsuits, which were defined in
(24:31):
the legislation as anythingbased on feelings.
Charlie Incarica (24:36):
So it would seem that Governor Alice Hart,
who had been given great power,did not handle the great
responsibility that came with itgreatly.
And Erica Hobbes went intohiding.
Estelle Hayes (24:47):
She went full hermit, which she posted about
daily on TikTok with the handleat Pudding Ditch 1938.
Charlie Incarica (24:55):
So, by March 2020, Erica Hobbes' daughter,
Erica Hobbes, could be added tothe list of people who had a
clear motive for murder.
And Alisa McKenzie seems tohave had unique access to each
of the murder victims.
I know at the top of theepisode, I said we'd talk to
people who knew and lovedAmanda, but we sort of rolled
(25:16):
snake eyes on that every time welooked for one.
Anyway, in episode 5, the plotand the pudding thicken.
And this continues to be theMurderer Killings.
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