What leads a seemingly ordinary mother to commit mushroom poisoning against her former in-laws?
This episode of the Mushroom Murder Trial delves deep into the mind of Erin Patterson, examining her marriage breakdown and the complex co-parenting arrangement with Simon Patterson.
Simon’s emotional courtroom testimony uncovers surprising truths about their life after separation in 2015. Despite their fractured marriage, the pair maintained a seemingly ideal co-parenting arrangement—sharing custody and even taking family holidays together. Tune in to explore the tangled web of relationships, motives, and secrets that may finally reveal what drove Erin Patterson to the edge.
What drives a seemingly normal mother to poison her former in-laws? The question haunts Lisa from the Mushroom Murder Trial, and in this second episode examining Erin and Simon Patterson, we might finally have found the answer.
Simon's emotional testimony in court revealed surprising details about their relationship after separation in 2015. Despite their marriage breakdown, they maintained what appeared to be an ideal co-parenting arrangement—sharing custody equally, taking family holidays together, and even involving each other in major life decisions. Simon continued to help Erin with her dream home build, using his engineering expertise while she pursued various educational interests from veterinary science to legal studies.
But beneath this cooperative veneer lurked a disturbing truth. Psychological research shows poisoners typically display childlike, manipulative personalities, desperate for control and avoiding direct conflict. Erin fits this profile perfectly—fabricating medical concerns including false claims about ovarian cancer, regularly visiting her mother while simultaneously claiming childhood abuse, and maintaining a façade of normalcy that masked her growing resentment.
The catalyst? A seemingly minor dispute over Simon's tax status that Erin claimed affected her family benefits. This "beginning of the end" escalated beyond reason, eventually leading to the calculated mushroom poisoning that shocked Australia. With only 11 homicides involving extended family members occurring annually nationwide, and men responsible for 88% of these crimes, Erin Patterson stands as a truly unusual case—perhaps someone simply "born this way" rather than shaped by circumstance.
Subscribe to my newsletter at mushroommurdertrialcom for exclusive updates and analysis you won't find anywhere else. While mainstream media has moved on, I'm committed to following this extraordinary case through to its conclusion, from courtroom to prison. What other secrets will emerge? Listen and find out.
Buy me a Coffee as a thank you.
#TrueCrime #ErinPatterson #Familicide #MushroomMurders #TrueCrimeAustralia #TrueCrimeCommunity #DarkMinds #TrueCrimeShorts #TrueCrimeObsessed #CriminalPsychology #deathCap #MurderMystery #beefwellingtonpoisoning #courtroomdrama #truecrimepodcast #truecrime #mushroomtrial #mushroomtrialnews #poisoning #psychopath #simonpatterson #mushroomlady #erinpattersonguilty
Instagram @Erin_Podcast
Twitter @lisapodcasts
Mushroom Murder Trial Website
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello and welcome to the Mushroom Murder Trial
podcast.
My name's Lisa and I have beencovering this extraordinary case
since 2023.
Welcome to part two of Erin andSimon, the couple at the centre
of this modern day tragedy.
Just to clarify, it's taken awhile for me to get this out
(00:21):
because there's a suppressionorder at the moment on the
information from the pre-trialhearings, so I've had to do a
substantial rewrite.
But before we start, please goto my newsletter and subscribe
at mushroommurdertrialcom.
It's free and informative.
What more could you want?
And I also have stickers.
(00:42):
So if you would like a stickerthat says Fact Forager, I can
send it to you for free as well.
Just send me through yourpostal address and off it will
go.
Now please also rate and reviewthis podcast, because my
content does really well onother platforms.
Yet most of my reviews areabout the sound of my voice, so
(01:06):
if you could maybe review it andsay that I sound like a magpie
at the start of spring maybe not, but, as my friend Jackson
would say, namaste.
Now let's move along, becausetoday we are following on from
our last episode about thepartnership of Erin and Simon
and I'm going to try and solvethe $1 million question which is
(01:30):
and continues to be what wasErin Patterson's motive?
I think I've nailed it.
You'll have to let me know whatyou think.
Here's a hint it's from theglorious Lady Gaga and it is
born this way.
Now stay with me to get thosedetails.
(01:50):
But to catch us up in time, weare now in January 2014, where
Simon and Erin welcomed amuch-wanted baby girl after
undergoing IVF.
But by 2015, the marriage wasagain in trouble.
Despite their move back toVictoria to be closer to Simon's
(02:12):
family, the relationship neverfully recovered after two
separate reconciliations in 2015.
They had recoupled in themiddle of that year and Erin
moved back into the family homein Mason Street, corrumburra, in
an effort to reconcile.
By the end of that year, thecouple decided to move forward
(02:35):
with a financial separation, iea division of finances.
It was straightforward andhandled without lawyers, an
arrangement both considered fair.
Erin kept some cash and took onthe house loan debts owed to
her by Simon's siblings, whileher ex-partner retained the
Mason Street home and therepayments of debt owed to them
(02:58):
by other siblings.
Around this time, erin bought aproperty at Anthony Street,
corran Borough, for $400,000approximately.
So now I'm going to take you toSimon Patterson's testimony from
the early days of the murdertrial starting June 1.
In this section, he's replyingto questions from the Trieff
prosecutor, dr Nanette Rogers,sc.
(03:21):
They are, of course, discussingErin.
This is Dr Rogers.
Now, during the majority periodof your marriage, was she doing
home duties, simon?
Yes, that was part of what shedid.
She enjoyed studying, so shestudied various courses while we
were married, includingstarting a vet science course.
I know she had studied legalcourses as well I can't remember
(03:45):
if that was before or after wewere married or at least been
accepted into those.
She studied, I think, a sciencedegree for a little while as
well when we were married Now.
Dr Rogers then asked Simon aboutparenting the two children
post-separation, and the timingof his views or his evidence
(04:07):
jumps between 2021 and 2020.
Was it important for you thatit remained so?
Yes, so they've just beentalking about how they're on
friendly terms, simon and Erin.
For what reason, simon?
A few reasons partly becausewe're married and I think, and
Dr Rogers, and partly for thechildren.
Yeah, partly because I thinkit's good to be friends with the
(04:29):
person you're married to and,plus, I like to have a good
relationship with anyone,especially my wife, but also
partly because it was, it'sreally important to me Simon's
sobbing here, so can I havetissues please?
I reckon I'm going to.
And then it says in indistinctwords Then he says thank you
(04:52):
very much to the tissues.
Yeah, it's important to me, thatlook.
And then Dr Rogers says do youwant a break?
And he says no, I don't.
Thank you, his honour, mrPatterson, we usually take a
break about quarter to 12.
Simon yep, we could take thebreak earlier if you would like.
No, simon says that's fine, I'mjust struggling to answer the
(05:15):
question, but I'll get there.
Your Honour, it's okay.
Dr Rogers, can I put it thisway?
Did you continue to care forher, simon?
Yes, very much so.
Dr Rogers, all right, youremained friendly after the
separation in 2015.
Yeah, most of the time, yep.
So what kinds of markers wouldyou describe as an ongoing
(05:39):
friendship, simon?
We seem to manage care of thekids well together, I think, and
that was done actively andpositively by both of us.
Did you share them from time totime, simon?
Yeah, so for pretty much thewhole time, we made sure the
kids had, you know, werehalf-half staying with their mum
(05:59):
and with their dad and managinghow it was for them, whether
they were together with each ofus or apart, dr Rogers.
So essentially it worked wellin terms of the sharing of the
children, because you both livedin Corrin Borough.
He said that's right.
What about?
Did you message each other fromtime to time, simon?
(06:21):
We did a lot of messaging, alot of communication, was it
wasn't just for organizationalfor that time yeah, for quite a
few years it was.
And then Dr Rogers says aboutanything.
He responds with banter anddiscussions about politics and
interesting things.
It was.
Yeah, dr Rogers, can I askabout family holidays?
(06:45):
Did you go away together withthe children?
Simon, we did.
Most of the family holidays upuntil only recent years were
together, so we travelledoverseas interstate on holidays
at different times.
Now this is me, your podcaster.
This next bit underlines howmuch of a liar Erin is.
(07:06):
Simon says, including to Erin'smum in Eden quite frequently.
Now, this is the woman who Erintold someone in our Facebook
group basically stole herchildhood, tortured her mentally
, caused her an eating disorder.
She mentioned that in court aswell, but she used to go and
(07:27):
visit her regularly.
This blows me away, becauseErin gave everyone in the group
the impression well, most of thepeople in the group the
impression she didn't have muchtime for mum, but yet she was up
in Eden a lot.
What's that all about?
It's very interesting, andPaterson, again, is an
unreliable narrator.
(07:49):
Okay, so now we're moving on to2020.
She moved to 84 Gibson Street,leongatha.
Simon says that's right.
When she moved to that address,what was the arrangement in
terms of the children?
Were they living with hersolely or were they sometimes
with her and sometimes with you?
(08:11):
And was it a bit of a free andeasy arrangement?
Let me put it this way At thoseparticular houses that she
lived in Anthony Court, shelcottRoad and then 46 Shelcott Road
over that period of time, werethey sharing arrangements with
the children as there had beenbefore?
(08:33):
Sorry, simon says I've lost mytrain of thought.
Could you ask that again please?
Dr Rogers, we might havealready covered this, but after
she moved into Anthony Court andthe subsequent house on
Shelcott Road, you continued tocare for the children.
We did.
Yep, says Simon.
(08:53):
Dr Rogers, how can I ask youabout a house in Melbourne?
Oh, apologies, she says.
Now can I ask you about a housein Melbourne?
Did you and Erin jointly own ahouse in Melbourne, simon?
Yes, we did.
Which suburb was it in?
Simon it was, what's it called?
(09:14):
It was a unit in Mount Waverleysorry, sindal which I guess is
technically Mount Waverley.
So we're finishing off from thetestimony here in the
transcript.
But it's clear Simon and Erin'son again, off again relationship
it really rivaled Hollywood'smost dramatic pairings.
(09:35):
But this wasn't the stuff offairy tales.
Beneath the surface was theticking time bomb in the form of
Erin and how she chose to dealwith conflict, because their two
lives intertwined like tangledthreads and they were impossible
to pull apart, no matter howmuch damage we've seen.
But it makes me think of thatmovie Gone Girl with Ben Affleck
(09:57):
.
And he's married to a womanwho's a bit of an ice princess
and her name's Amy, and she hasa supposedly idyllic life with
her husband Nick.
That's Ben, but it was a facadehiding her unhappiness and her
brewing resentment.
Erin too seemed to project theimage of a cooperative wife and
(10:19):
mother, even as her lifecrumbled and her actions grew
darker and darker.
Both women's lives raised thequestion how much of what we see
is real and how much iscarefully constructed.
Amy has an infamous line youthink I'm the kind of woman who
would let that happen, which, inher mind, encapsulates her
(10:41):
refusal to be a victim.
So I wonder if Erin thoughtSimon was victimising her and
she wanted to stand up to himsome way.
In my opinion, erin's actionssuggest a similar mentality, a
determination to maintain agency, no matter the cost.
When scorned, both women appearcapable of unimaginable things.
(11:06):
Now I had a look into theresearch around poisoners and
what personalities they have,and Psychology Today notes that
they resemble that of animmature child, spoiled,
manipulative and desperate toget their own way regardless of
the consequences.
Poisoning demands carefulcalculation and deceit, making a
(11:31):
crime suited to those who arecunning, creative and avoid
direct conflict.
Poisoners often rely on subtlemanipulation, both verbal and
emotional, to achieve theirobjectives.
Convicted poisoners frequentlystruggle with feelings of
inadequacy, which theycounteract with fantasies of
(11:52):
dominance, a rejection ofauthority and exploitative
tendencies.
They also have a toxic mix ofinadequacy, rebelliousness and a
hunger for control.
This is paired with aself-absorbed and exploitative
way of relating to others.
Many were either spoiled oremotionally neglected during
(12:14):
their childhood.
Erin claims she was emotionallyneglected and I know people are
going to get upset with mesaying well, why did you go and
visit your mum so much if youthought that she emotionally
tortured you as a child.
I don't know, but it'simportant to note here that her
mother's dead.
We've only really got Erin'sside of the story.
(12:34):
It's basically acting onimpulsive desires, grabbing at
life's rewards as thoughtlesslyas a child steals sweets.
But no one who knew Erin, andmaybe not even Erin herself,
would predict she was capable ofsuch evil.
But to understand her you needto consider the nature of her
(12:55):
crimes.
She is rare and unique.
According to the AustralianInstitute of Criminology, on
average 11 homicides occur inAustralia annually involving
extended family members,including in-laws, grandparents
and cousins, with most incidentshappening in residential
(13:16):
locations.
Marital conflict and violence,particularly involving in-laws,
are common themes in homicides.
Men are responsible for themajority 88% of these killings,
and the gender distribution ofvictims is similar to that of
general homicides, so 63% male,37% female.
(13:37):
The research discusses the roleof parents and in-laws in
family homicides, specificallyrelatives, on the involvement of
these family members in lethalviolence stemming from marital
conflict and disputes.
In cases involving thesein-laws, it's noted that the
conflict often resolves aroundmarital violence and often the
(14:00):
spouse is the victim of abuse.
No comment there.
Other family members,particularly in-laws, sometimes
take on a protective roletowards the abused spouse.
This intervention can escalateinto violent confrontations
leading to homicide, within-laws becoming embroiled in
(14:21):
the conflict.
Wallace 1986, highlights thispattern, where a domestic
dispute within a marriagespreads to include in-laws who
may step in to protect theabused spouse.
Now this involvement candefinitely intensify tensions
and the result can be fataloutcomes during clashes between
(14:44):
the in-laws and the abuser.
Research also touches on thebroader dynamics of family
homicides involving parents,where lethal violence is not
limited to spouses but can gothroughout the family, including
children.
Familiar conflict, especiallywhere there is a history of
abuse.
It can spiral outwards andimplicate other family members
(15:06):
in violent acts.
So my theory about Erin is, assomeone who did one semester of
psychology at Charles SturtUniversity 30 years ago don't
complain, I'm joking.
Okay, I got in trouble theother day for saying that Erin
would be a terrible customerservice worker.
So I just have to say I'mjoking.
(15:27):
I may not be funny, but it's ajoke.
I don't really think I'm apsychologist.
I think Erin was just born thisway.
I'll be interested to know whenthe sentencing comes down if
she's the psychopath, becausequite often psychopaths are born
and then you have those who aremade Jeffrey Epstein.
I used to have a podcast abouthim and I decided I was going to
(15:50):
look into his family, becauseeveryone says his parents were
the nicest people in the world,including his brother, mark
Epstein.
So I was like, where did thiscome from?
How did he end up being sorevolting?
And I wasn't able to findanything.
I went back two generations,interestingly too.
I went back maybe fourgenerations and I've just
(16:13):
recently found Erin's mother'sside as well, and I think her
grandfather was a war hero.
What can you say?
Anyway, more that later, but Ijust wanted you to know that
there are cases where sometimespeople are just born this way.
It's like genetics.
I don't know anything aboutgenetics, but you see what I'm
(16:33):
saying.
So to build on that, she's likea remember, in the 80s they had
those beta videotapes and theyweren't fit for service in
normal operating circumstances,and I suppose, if you look at it
, we live in a world full ofdiamonds.
But Erin is a cubic zirconia.
She'd take a baseball bat to abeehive, so she's an unreliable
(16:57):
narrator.
Now, this is the other thingI've worked out too.
So Erin said in court that heraunt on her dad's side he only
had one sister.
There are only two kids in thefamily.
She had ovarian cancer.
No, she had leukemia.
Don't lie, erin.
And I'm about to look at theother side of the family as well
, because it gives us a biginsight into how she operates
(17:21):
this fear of ovarian cancerwhich I know so much about.
And I remember listening tothat when Mr Mandy, her
barrister, was questioning herabout the ovarian cancer, I was
shaken with anger because mymother had it.
So it was a double whammy forme.
I knew Erin.
My mother had ovarian cancerand I used to be on the board of
(17:43):
Ovarian Cancer Australia thathospital.
She said she was at getting herelbow x-rayed.
That's not where you go inMelbourne for an ovarian cancer
diagnosis.
I mean, she'd be straight infor surgery.
It just made me so mad becauseit's such a terrible disease.
Again, I've got chills.
It still really upsets metalking about it.
(18:04):
Anyway, let's move on.
But Erin is a liar.
But, as we know from now on,the Patterson family.
Throughout the years the familydynamic between Simon and Erin
was very normal and verycooperative.
There were shared familyoutings and projects and Erin
was involving Simon in the buildof her home because he's an
(18:25):
engineer.
So things were looking up forher by 2020.
And then it just went so wrong.
I mean, she's gone fromdesigning her dream home on a
bush block not that far fromtown in Leangatha.
She paid for it and she's veryhouse proud and focused on
making the house a place for thechildren and the family, which
(18:48):
is when we get towards the end.
And now we get to the beginningof the end.
Simon was over at Erin's housepicking up the kids one day and
she said she wanted to talk tohim and it was about his status
on his tax returns.
So dropping picking up the kids, I would have been dropping off
(19:12):
one of the kids, at least, Ithink.
At the time she came out andsaid to me she wanted to have a
chat to me about something whichI could see was a serious thing
.
So she sat in the car with me,she sat in the passenger seat
and she said that she discoveredthat my tax return for the
previous financial year notedthat we were separated Before,
(19:37):
that we hadn't got involved,hadn't got the government
involved in the fact that wewere separated at all before
then.
So she said that mattered, Ithink, for the family tax
benefit.
Come on, mate, you're not you,simon.
I'm not talking to Simon here.
Erin, you're, you're wealthy,what do you?
That's family tax benefit isnot for you.
(19:59):
It's very annoying.
So she would be obliged toclaim child support off me,
which had never happened before.
So she was yeah, she pointedthat out and that was she was
upset about it.
So that is the beginning of theend, and we'll go into this in
another episode, because it'sreally fascinating how things
(20:20):
just go.
It was basically just a swipeof a pen to change his tax
status.
He said he would change it back, but no, it wasn't good enough
for her.
So, whatever happened, therewas a bridge too far.
So the tension continues toramp up and it ends with Simon
saying that he wanted to workthings out with Erin, but she'd
(20:41):
gone away with the kids to NewZealand, so let's leave it there
at the moment.
2023 was certainly going to bea nightmare of a year for the
Patterson family.
Thank you so much for listeningtoday.
For more information, visit mywebsite.
Make sure you subscribe to thenewsletter on
mushroommurdertrialcom Plus.
(21:02):
My social media addresses aredown the bottom of the show
notes.
Just search for the podcast theMushroom Murder Trial podcast
on most platforms and if you arefeeling like rewarding me for
the thousands of hours I'vespent on this work.
I have a Buy Me A Coffeemembership Link in the show
notes Just $5 as a little thankyou.
(21:22):
Some of you have thank you somuch.
I appreciate it.
I really do so.
Stay tuned as we continue toexplore every angle of this case
.
I'm going to keep doing it andnotice the big guys.
They've all taken off now.
Well, I'm still here.
So this is from the courtroomto her new life in the prison.
(21:44):
We're going to cover it all,and my name's Lisa and I'm with
the Mushroom Murder TrialPodcast.
Have a fabulous day, thanks,bye.
Hello and welcome to the Mushroom Murder Trial
podcast.
My name's Lisa and I have beencovering this extraordinary case
since 2023.
Welcome to part two of Erin andSimon, the couple at the centre
of this modern day tragedy.
Just to clarify, it's taken awhile for me to get this out
(00:21):
because there's a suppressionorder at the moment on the
information from the pre-trialhearings, so I've had to do a
substantial rewrite.
But before we start, please goto my newsletter and subscribe
at mushroommurdertrialcom.
It's free and informative.
What more could you want?
And I also have stickers.
(00:42):
So if you would like a stickerthat says Fact Forager, I can
send it to you for free as well.
Just send me through yourpostal address and off it will
go.
Now please also rate and reviewthis podcast, because my
content does really well onother platforms.
Yet most of my reviews areabout the sound of my voice, so
(01:06):
if you could maybe review it andsay that I sound like a magpie
at the start of spring maybe not, but, as my friend Jackson
would say, namaste.
Now let's move along, becausetoday we are following on from
our last episode about thepartnership of Erin and Simon
and I'm going to try and solvethe $1 million question which is
(01:30):
and continues to be what wasErin Patterson's motive?
I think I've nailed it.
You'll have to let me know whatyou think.
Here's a hint it's from theglorious Lady Gaga and it is
born this way.
Now stay with me to get thosedetails.
(01:50):
But to catch us up in time, weare now in January 2014, where
Simon and Erin welcomed amuch-wanted baby girl after
undergoing IVF.
But by 2015, the marriage wasagain in trouble.
Despite their move back toVictoria to be closer to Simon's
(02:12):
family, the relationship neverfully recovered after two
separate reconciliations in 2015.
They had recoupled in themiddle of that year and Erin
moved back into the family homein Mason Street, corrumburra, in
an effort to reconcile.
By the end of that year, thecouple decided to move forward
(02:35):
with a financial separation, iea division of finances.
It was straightforward andhandled without lawyers, an
arrangement both considered fair.
Erin kept some cash and took onthe house loan debts owed to
her by Simon's siblings, whileher ex-partner retained the
Mason Street home and therepayments of debt owed to them
(02:58):
by other siblings.
Around this time, erin bought aproperty at Anthony Street,
corran Borough, for $400,000approximately.
So now I'm going to take you toSimon Patterson's testimony from
the early days of the murdertrial starting June 1.
In this section, he's replyingto questions from the Trieff
prosecutor, dr Nanette Rogers,sc.
(03:21):
They are, of course, discussingErin.
This is Dr Rogers.
Now, during the majority periodof your marriage, was she doing
home duties, simon?
Yes, that was part of what shedid.
She enjoyed studying, so shestudied various courses while we
were married, includingstarting a vet science course.
I know she had studied legalcourses as well I can't remember
(03:45):
if that was before or after wewere married or at least been
accepted into those.
She studied, I think, a sciencedegree for a little while as
well when we were married Now.
Dr Rogers then asked Simon aboutparenting the two children
post-separation, and the timingof his views or his evidence
(04:07):
jumps between 2021 and 2020.
Was it important for you thatit remained so?
Yes, so they've just beentalking about how they're on
friendly terms, simon and Erin.
For what reason, simon?
A few reasons partly becausewe're married and I think, and
Dr Rogers, and partly for thechildren.
Yeah, partly because I thinkit's good to be friends with the
(04:29):
person you're married to and,plus, I like to have a good
relationship with anyone,especially my wife, but also
partly because it was, it'sreally important to me Simon's
sobbing here, so can I havetissues please?
I reckon I'm going to.
And then it says in indistinctwords Then he says thank you
(04:52):
very much to the tissues.
Yeah, it's important to me, thatlook.
And then Dr Rogers says do youwant a break?
And he says no, I don't.
Thank you, his honour, mrPatterson, we usually take a
break about quarter to 12.
Simon yep, we could take thebreak earlier if you would like.
No, simon says that's fine, I'mjust struggling to answer the
(05:15):
question, but I'll get there.
Your Honour, it's okay.
Dr Rogers, can I put it thisway?
Did you continue to care forher, simon?
Yes, very much so.
Dr Rogers, all right, youremained friendly after the
separation in 2015.
Yeah, most of the time, yep.
So what kinds of markers wouldyou describe as an ongoing
(05:39):
friendship, simon?
We seem to manage care of thekids well together, I think, and
that was done actively andpositively by both of us.
Did you share them from time totime, simon?
Yeah, so for pretty much thewhole time, we made sure the
kids had, you know, werehalf-half staying with their mum
(05:59):
and with their dad and managinghow it was for them, whether
they were together with each ofus or apart, dr Rogers.
So essentially it worked wellin terms of the sharing of the
children, because you both livedin Corrin Borough.
He said that's right.
What about?
Did you message each other fromtime to time, simon?
(06:21):
We did a lot of messaging, alot of communication, was it
wasn't just for organizationalfor that time yeah, for quite a
few years it was.
And then Dr Rogers says aboutanything.
He responds with banter anddiscussions about politics and
interesting things.
It was.
Yeah, dr Rogers, can I askabout family holidays?
(06:45):
Did you go away together withthe children?
Simon, we did.
Most of the family holidays upuntil only recent years were
together, so we travelledoverseas interstate on holidays
at different times.
Now this is me, your podcaster.
This next bit underlines howmuch of a liar Erin is.
(07:06):
Simon says, including to Erin'smum in Eden quite frequently.
Now, this is the woman who Erintold someone in our Facebook
group basically stole herchildhood, tortured her mentally
, caused her an eating disorder.
She mentioned that in court aswell, but she used to go and
(07:27):
visit her regularly.
This blows me away, becauseErin gave everyone in the group
the impression well, most of thepeople in the group the
impression she didn't have muchtime for mum, but yet she was up
in Eden a lot.
What's that all about?
It's very interesting, andPaterson, again, is an
unreliable narrator.
(07:49):
Okay, so now we're moving on to2020.
She moved to 84 Gibson Street,leongatha.
Simon says that's right.
When she moved to that address,what was the arrangement in
terms of the children?
Were they living with hersolely or were they sometimes
with her and sometimes with you?
(08:11):
And was it a bit of a free andeasy arrangement?
Let me put it this way At thoseparticular houses that she
lived in Anthony Court, shelcottRoad and then 46 Shelcott Road
over that period of time, werethey sharing arrangements with
the children as there had beenbefore?
(08:33):
Sorry, simon says I've lost mytrain of thought.
Could you ask that again please?
Dr Rogers, we might havealready covered this, but after
she moved into Anthony Court andthe subsequent house on
Shelcott Road, you continued tocare for the children.
We did.
Yep, says Simon.
(08:53):
Dr Rogers, how can I ask youabout a house in Melbourne?
Oh, apologies, she says.
Now can I ask you about a housein Melbourne?
Did you and Erin jointly own ahouse in Melbourne, simon?
Yes, we did.
Which suburb was it in?
Simon it was, what's it called?
(09:14):
It was a unit in Mount Waverleysorry, sindal which I guess is
technically Mount Waverley.
So we're finishing off from thetestimony here in the
transcript.
But it's clear Simon and Erin'son again, off again relationship
it really rivaled Hollywood'smost dramatic pairings.
(09:35):
But this wasn't the stuff offairy tales.
Beneath the surface was theticking time bomb in the form of
Erin and how she chose to dealwith conflict, because their two
lives intertwined like tangledthreads and they were impossible
to pull apart, no matter howmuch damage we've seen.
But it makes me think of thatmovie Gone Girl with Ben Affleck
(09:57):
.
And he's married to a womanwho's a bit of an ice princess
and her name's Amy, and she hasa supposedly idyllic life with
her husband Nick.
That's Ben, but it was a facadehiding her unhappiness and her
brewing resentment.
Erin too seemed to project theimage of a cooperative wife and
(10:19):
mother, even as her lifecrumbled and her actions grew
darker and darker.
Both women's lives raised thequestion how much of what we see
is real and how much iscarefully constructed.
Amy has an infamous line youthink I'm the kind of woman who
would let that happen, which, inher mind, encapsulates her
(10:41):
refusal to be a victim.
So I wonder if Erin thoughtSimon was victimising her and
she wanted to stand up to himsome way.
In my opinion, erin's actionssuggest a similar mentality, a
determination to maintain agency, no matter the cost.
When scorned, both women appearcapable of unimaginable things.
(11:06):
Now I had a look into theresearch around poisoners and
what personalities they have,and Psychology Today notes that
they resemble that of animmature child, spoiled,
manipulative and desperate toget their own way regardless of
the consequences.
Poisoning demands carefulcalculation and deceit, making a
(11:31):
crime suited to those who arecunning, creative and avoid
direct conflict.
Poisoners often rely on subtlemanipulation, both verbal and
emotional, to achieve theirobjectives.
Convicted poisoners frequentlystruggle with feelings of
inadequacy, which theycounteract with fantasies of
(11:52):
dominance, a rejection ofauthority and exploitative
tendencies.
They also have a toxic mix ofinadequacy, rebelliousness and a
hunger for control.
This is paired with aself-absorbed and exploitative
way of relating to others.
Many were either spoiled oremotionally neglected during
(12:14):
their childhood.
Erin claims she was emotionallyneglected and I know people are
going to get upset with mesaying well, why did you go and
visit your mum so much if youthought that she emotionally
tortured you as a child.
I don't know, but it'simportant to note here that her
mother's dead.
We've only really got Erin'sside of the story.
(12:34):
It's basically acting onimpulsive desires, grabbing at
life's rewards as thoughtlesslyas a child steals sweets.
But no one who knew Erin, andmaybe not even Erin herself,
would predict she was capable ofsuch evil.
But to understand her you needto consider the nature of her
(12:55):
crimes.
She is rare and unique.
According to the AustralianInstitute of Criminology, on
average 11 homicides occur inAustralia annually involving
extended family members,including in-laws, grandparents
and cousins, with most incidentshappening in residential
(13:16):
locations.
Marital conflict and violence,particularly involving in-laws,
are common themes in homicides.
Men are responsible for themajority 88% of these killings,
and the gender distribution ofvictims is similar to that of
general homicides, so 63% male,37% female.
(13:37):
The research discusses the roleof parents and in-laws in
family homicides, specificallyrelatives, on the involvement of
these family members in lethalviolence stemming from marital
conflict and disputes.
In cases involving thesein-laws, it's noted that the
conflict often resolves aroundmarital violence and often the
(14:00):
spouse is the victim of abuse.
No comment there.
Other family members,particularly in-laws, sometimes
take on a protective roletowards the abused spouse.
This intervention can escalateinto violent confrontations
leading to homicide, within-laws becoming embroiled in
(14:21):
the conflict.
Wallace 1986, highlights thispattern, where a domestic
dispute within a marriagespreads to include in-laws who
may step in to protect theabused spouse.
Now this involvement candefinitely intensify tensions
and the result can be fataloutcomes during clashes between
(14:44):
the in-laws and the abuser.
Research also touches on thebroader dynamics of family
homicides involving parents,where lethal violence is not
limited to spouses but can gothroughout the family, including
children.
Familiar conflict, especiallywhere there is a history of
abuse.
It can spiral outwards andimplicate other family members
(15:06):
in violent acts.
So my theory about Erin is, assomeone who did one semester of
psychology at Charles SturtUniversity 30 years ago don't
complain, I'm joking.
Okay, I got in trouble theother day for saying that Erin
would be a terrible customerservice worker.
So I just have to say I'mjoking.
(15:27):
I may not be funny, but it's ajoke.
I don't really think I'm apsychologist.
I think Erin was just born thisway.
I'll be interested to know whenthe sentencing comes down if
she's the psychopath, becausequite often psychopaths are born
and then you have those who aremade Jeffrey Epstein.
I used to have a podcast abouthim and I decided I was going to
(15:50):
look into his family, becauseeveryone says his parents were
the nicest people in the world,including his brother, mark
Epstein.
So I was like, where did thiscome from?
How did he end up being sorevolting?
And I wasn't able to findanything.
I went back two generations,interestingly too.
I went back maybe fourgenerations and I've just
(16:13):
recently found Erin's mother'sside as well, and I think her
grandfather was a war hero.
What can you say?
Anyway, more that later, but Ijust wanted you to know that
there are cases where sometimespeople are just born this way.
It's like genetics.
I don't know anything aboutgenetics, but you see what I'm
(16:33):
saying.
So to build on that, she's likea remember, in the 80s they had
those beta videotapes and theyweren't fit for service in
normal operating circumstances,and I suppose, if you look at it
, we live in a world full ofdiamonds.
But Erin is a cubic zirconia.
She'd take a baseball bat to abeehive, so she's an unreliable
(16:57):
narrator.
Now, this is the other thingI've worked out too.
So Erin said in court that heraunt on her dad's side he only
had one sister.
There are only two kids in thefamily.
She had ovarian cancer.
No, she had leukemia.
Don't lie, erin.
And I'm about to look at theother side of the family as well
, because it gives us a biginsight into how she operates
(17:21):
this fear of ovarian cancerwhich I know so much about.
And I remember listening tothat when Mr Mandy, her
barrister, was questioning herabout the ovarian cancer, I was
shaken with anger because mymother had it.
So it was a double whammy forme.
I knew Erin.
My mother had ovarian cancerand I used to be on the board of
(17:43):
Ovarian Cancer Australia thathospital.
She said she was at getting herelbow x-rayed.
That's not where you go inMelbourne for an ovarian cancer
diagnosis.
I mean, she'd be straight infor surgery.
It just made me so mad becauseit's such a terrible disease.
Again, I've got chills.
It still really upsets metalking about it.
(18:04):
Anyway, let's move on.
But Erin is a liar.
But, as we know from now on,the Patterson family.
Throughout the years the familydynamic between Simon and Erin
was very normal and verycooperative.
There were shared familyoutings and projects and Erin
was involving Simon in the buildof her home because he's an
(18:25):
engineer.
So things were looking up forher by 2020.
And then it just went so wrong.
I mean, she's gone fromdesigning her dream home on a
bush block not that far fromtown in Leangatha.
She paid for it and she's veryhouse proud and focused on
making the house a place for thechildren and the family, which
(18:48):
is when we get towards the end.
And now we get to the beginningof the end.
Simon was over at Erin's housepicking up the kids one day and
she said she wanted to talk tohim and it was about his status
on his tax returns.
So dropping picking up the kids, I would have been dropping off
(19:12):
one of the kids, at least, Ithink.
At the time she came out andsaid to me she wanted to have a
chat to me about something whichI could see was a serious thing
.
So she sat in the car with me,she sat in the passenger seat
and she said that she discoveredthat my tax return for the
previous financial year notedthat we were separated Before,
(19:37):
that we hadn't got involved,hadn't got the government
involved in the fact that wewere separated at all before
then.
So she said that mattered, Ithink, for the family tax
benefit.
Come on, mate, you're not you,simon.
I'm not talking to Simon here.
Erin, you're, you're wealthy,what do you?
That's family tax benefit isnot for you.
(19:59):
It's very annoying.
So she would be obliged toclaim child support off me,
which had never happened before.
So she was yeah, she pointedthat out and that was she was
upset about it.
So that is the beginning of theend, and we'll go into this in
another episode, because it'sreally fascinating how things
(20:20):
just go.
It was basically just a swipeof a pen to change his tax
status.
He said he would change it back, but no, it wasn't good enough
for her.
So, whatever happened, therewas a bridge too far.
So the tension continues toramp up and it ends with Simon
saying that he wanted to workthings out with Erin, but she'd
(20:41):
gone away with the kids to NewZealand, so let's leave it there
at the moment.
2023 was certainly going to bea nightmare of a year for the
Patterson family.
Thank you so much for listeningtoday.
For more information, visit mywebsite.
Make sure you subscribe to thenewsletter on
mushroommurdertrialcom Plus.
(21:02):
My social media addresses aredown the bottom of the show
notes.
Just search for the podcast theMushroom Murder Trial podcast
on most platforms and if you arefeeling like rewarding me for
the thousands of hours I'vespent on this work.
I have a Buy Me A Coffeemembership Link in the show
notes Just $5 as a little thankyou.
(21:22):
Some of you have thank you somuch.
I appreciate it.
I really do so.
Stay tuned as we continue toexplore every angle of this case
.
I'm going to keep doing it andnotice the big guys.
They've all taken off now.
Well, I'm still here.
So this is from the courtroomto her new life in the prison.
(21:44):
We're going to cover it all,and my name's Lisa and I'm with
the Mushroom Murder TrialPodcast.
Have a fabulous day, thanks,bye.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Special Summer Offer: Exclusively on Apple Podcasts, try our Dateline Premium subscription completely free for one month! With Dateline Premium, you get every episode ad-free plus exclusive bonus content.