February 7, 2024 • 35 mins
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🎉 HAPPY NEW YEAR! We're shaking things up with a slight change to our episode lengths this year...so let us know what you think! This is the first of two parts of our conversation. Stay tuned to the feed for Part Two, available in a matter of days.
Pull up a chair and join the intimate discussion with Ernest Stewart, whose vast trombone performing experience transcends genres. Ernest now works with Mid Atlantic Arts, bringing his insights from stage to the boardroom, and shedding light on the significance of artists steering the grant-making wheel. We navigate through the complexities of the music industry, the untold value of mentorship, and the balancing act between growth and vulnerability. Ernest's story, punctuated with humor and warmth, serves as a beacon for any creative soul navigating the ever-evolving path to artistic fulfillment!
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Mentioned in this episode:
MidAtlantic Arts Foundation: https://www.midatlanticarts.org/
Ernest's website: http://erneststuart.com/
Ernest's album, Solitary Walker: listen here
************************
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Episode edited by: Emily MacMahon and Liz O’Hara
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Additional music by: Freddy Hall with www.musicforpodcasts.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Steph (00:00):
So, liz, have you heard about this alphabet technique to
calm yourself down?
Liz (00:04):
before you go to sleep.
No, but I need it.
Steph (00:07):
Okay, I heard this, I don't know, someplace like on
Instagram or I'm not on TikTok,but I think that's where it
originated.
But anyway, it's this woman whois actually like an ADHD coach
and, from what I understand,people who have this
neurological condition.
Their mind is like racing allthe time, right, racing, racing.
And I don't think this is justpeople with ADHD Right and the
(00:29):
long ass has not laid in bedthinking about all the awkward
conversations that you have thatday.
Oh, just replaying everything,but anyway.
So you're laying in bed and youpick a category of anything
Could be fruits, vegetables,cities, composers, whatever and
you focus on your breathing.
On the inhale, you think aboutthe letter On the exhale, you
(00:52):
think about a word from thatcategory that starts with that
letter.
So it might be apple.
That's what I was thinking aboutyes or in go through the whole
alphabet, so B banana cantaloupewhatever whatever your next
word would be and so it justkind of helps you to keep your
brain occupied but not onanything that's high stakes and
let you calm down internally bycontrolling your breath, this
(01:16):
kind of thing.
And I swear I never get like toM, you don't get to M, I'm
always asleep.
I don't.
I never get halfway through.
Liz (01:22):
Do you do this every night?
Steph (01:23):
Most nights I do Since I learned about it, that's good to
know.
Liz (01:26):
I'll have to try it.
I'll have to try it tonight,yeah try it.
Steph (01:29):
Try it you guys.
Yeah, please, welcome to theMusician Centric podcast.
We are two freelance violistsliving and laughing our way
through conversations thatexplore what it means to be a
professional musician in today'sworld.
I'm Steph and.
Liz (01:44):
I'm Liz and we're so glad you joined us.
Let's dive in.
Happy New Year, everybody.
Steph (01:54):
Oh my gosh, that's right.
I haven't even talked to yousince last year.
Liz (01:58):
It's been a long time yeah.
Steph (02:00):
So how's your New Year going?
How are your resolutions comingalong?
How many have you broken yourfavorite thing?
Resolutions.
I hate resolutions.
I never make them.
Liz (02:10):
I haven't made any resolutions either.
I am in a year of just kind ofgoing with the flow.
I'm just going to ride it outand see what happens.
I think everyone's January waslike an eternity long.
Steph (02:21):
So long for all these memes.
Is it always the 85th day ofJanuary?
Is it always like that?
I don't know.
It definitely has felt like thelongest month ever.
Liz (02:33):
I mean, really, yesterday was the last day of January for
when we're recording this.
When you look back at January1st, so much life has happened
and yet so little life hashappened for me.
It's really interesting.
I've been taking a lot of time.
Space has been a reallygrateful thing.
I feel like it's just I don'tknow, I'm kind of allowing
(02:53):
winter to just give me anopportunity to rest and keep
joking about this, but we'll seewhat happens as the months go
on.
I can't remember the firstperson who echoed this sentiment
to me, but I was saying, yeah,I mean right now, I'm just like
not in a hurry, I'm not really,I've just taken a lot of time to
myself and I like the idea ofkeeping it this way all year.
And then I said, but you know,springtime, liz, is a different
(03:15):
story.
She's a different girl.
We'll have to see what happens.
Steph (03:20):
I'm shaking my head.
Liz (03:22):
It's a nice thought.
Also, though, I'm sure I havesaid something very similar in
previous years, even on thispodcast that maybe winter is
just a good opportunity to goslow and just be okay going slow
, because that's really what ourbodies want to do anyway, just
like sleep is a good time forrecharge, january is a good time
for recharge.
(03:42):
Hopefully I did a lot of that.
Yeah, I'll try to display it.
I have a vision board in my-.
Steph (03:47):
Oh, take a picture and we'll put it on.
Okay, instagram, I will.
Liz (03:51):
How about you?
Steph (03:52):
You had a really great oh yeah, I was up in New York but
not in the city, in the state,at a musical retreat called
Magic Mountain Music Farm, whichI've gone to before, and it was
just, it was really, reallywonderful.
It was time where I didn't haveany of my usual
responsibilities and I was ableto focus on just music, just the
(04:12):
betterment of my craft, reallythinking deeply about my musical
ideas and my musical identityand being with people who were
also on that same journey, andit was just a beautiful,
picturesque.
We'll post some pictures Maybewe'll put your vision board and
some pictures from my retreatbut it was really recharging,
yeah, so then, great, and it's agood way to start the year, I
(04:33):
feel like, because it gets meback in the mindset of oh, I'm a
musician first, I have allthese other qualities, but this
is where my heart really lies,and you get pulled away from
that sometimes just with thewhole year of being in the world
.
Liz (04:48):
Yeah, definitely.
I think it's really cool.
I'm sure anybody who hears youdescribe it would say, oh my
gosh.
Yeah, go away for a couple ofweeks and just be immersed in
your musical project, whateverthat was for the time and
however that translates, it'sjust setting things in motion or
planting seeds.
Steph (05:09):
Yes, that's really what I was after.
I just need lots of seeds, yeah, and we'll just see what starts
to grow.
Liz (05:16):
Yeah, when you think about it, that's really like this time
of year those things are alldormant a little bit and then
once springtime comes, they makethis sort of like actually
sometimes painful like burst tothe surface and then they
flourish, and I think there's somuch in nature.
I think recently about that.
I'm like, yeah, if I can justkind of remember that this is
(05:36):
sort of the cycle of things thathappen in life, for anything
else that exists on our planetas well, it's kind of nice.
It's kind of takes the pressureoff.
It's like you're at a phase inyour life that you're not really
you want to be somewhere else,but sometimes not, yeah,
Sometimes.
Steph (05:53):
That's a really lovely thought we're just part of.
We're another life form on thisearth, and why wouldn't we have
patterns, just like any otherlife form on this earth does?
Liz (06:02):
Yeah, and of course we've created a lot of societal
structure to things to help usbe a bit more organized than the
average animal roaming aroundon the planet.
But deep thoughts with Liz andSteph, the average animal
roaming around on the planet.
But internally, I think there'sa lot of truth to this.
(06:22):
I think about it more and more.
Every year I get older, I thinkabout this.
I try to remember what seasonI'm literally in and if any of
the struggle is coming fromtrying to resist the season I'm
in, you know.
Yeah, that is deep thoughts.
There you go, Welcome to 2024.
Steph (06:38):
Yes, and with the new year we have new goals, but we
also have new guests for you.
Yes, so we're also tryingsomething a little bit different
with the structure of ourepisodes this year.
So you know, not everybody hasan hour to listen to a podcast
every week or every other weekor whatever.
So Liz and I were talking andwe decided that maybe we would
(07:00):
experiment with cutting theepisodes in half, and so you can
digest the first half of ourtalk with any guest and then let
it process and then maybe lateron we'll release the second
half of that episode and thenyou can have the full
conversation in your brain.
Liz (07:15):
Yeah, We've had some conversations about just feeling
this general sense of overwhelmfrom our community and from
people in general.
Right now, I think everybody'sjust kind of overloaded a lot of
the times and, you know, unlessyour life is structured in such
a way that you can commit timein a significant way, I think
sometimes it can even just feeloverwhelming to look at
(07:36):
something and think, oh my gosh,this is almost an hour long.
I don't know when I'm going tohave time, even if you could
break it up yourself, maybe justlooking at it and saying, oh,
this one's only like 35 minuteslong.
I can listen to this on mydrive, you know, and it'll be
done, and so we're just going togive this a try and let us know
what you think.
I know a lot of you have beenjust enjoying this podcast and
(07:56):
listening loyally for a longtime and probably aren't
bothered by the 55 minute timeframe.
So please let us know what youthink too about us breaking it
up.
But we're also going to justtry to see what else we can
offer you throughout the winterand spring this year.
Steph (08:10):
Yeah, some exciting things that we're working on so
stay tuned here.
Liz (08:14):
So our first guest of 2024, it's actually a conversation we
recorded a while back, but justin terms of the production
schedule it worked out to be ourfirst one of this year is with
my very good friend from college, brilliant trombonist named
Ernest Stewart, and this wasSteph's first time meeting
Ernest, so I was like reallyexcited about that because I've
(08:36):
been wanting him to join us onthe podcast for some time and it
was great to finally make ithappen.
Steph (08:40):
Yeah, I really love to meeting him.
He's so thoughtful and he hasthis quiet exterior, but there's
a lot going on and simmeringunderneath there.
Liz (08:50):
Yes, 100%.
Steph (08:52):
And he's really done a lot in his career so far.
From being a jazz trainedmusician, he's definitely a
jazzer, which is an awesome kindof flavor of musician that we
haven't had on this podcast alot.
So it was really great to hearhis point of view coming from
that side of that genre of musicand just his attitude of just
(09:15):
being open to whatever presentsitself to him is really really
admirable yeah.
Liz (09:22):
Yeah, he's had a really impressive career thus far.
He's been on tours.
He talks with us about thesynchronicity of things in his
life, which of course we love,and we also talk a little bit
about his most recent careerpath shift, which is in the
world of grant writing and grantmaking, and we just discuss a
(09:42):
little bit about potentiallywhat the artist's role is in
that world and how maybe we're alittle underrepresented in that
part of things.
So that was really interestingtoo to explore.
It was just a greatconversation.
I'm really excited foreverybody to listen to it.
Steph (09:57):
Yeah, so enjoy this here, the first half of our
conversation with Ernest Stewart.
Liz (10:04):
Located in a historic mansion in Tacoma Park, maryland
, you might get the impressionthat the team at Potter Violins
are as formal as thebreathtaking building that they
work in, but when you go insideinstead, you'll find the most
relatable, skilled and friendlystaff.
Steph (10:17):
Yes, the people at Potters are what really make it
a special place.
I love visiting because I knowthat whoever I work with is not
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They're kind of like yourfavorite bartender.
They're great listeners whogive you what you need without
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Liz (10:34):
Yes, their technicians are not only super talented,
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with you so that the process ofgetting your instrument at its
best really feels like apartnership.
Steph (10:45):
So if you're in the area, definitely stop by and
introduce yourself to Chris, robKimberly, derek, jim, melissa
and the whole team, or visitPotterViolinscom to find what
you need online.
Liz (10:57):
It's so fitting, then, that their shop is in this beautiful
old house, because the staff atPotter's really makes it feel
like home.
New York City-based trombonistErnest Stewart is a recording
artist, touring performer, artsadministrator and a true
multi-passionate entrepreneur.
As a freelance jazz musician,he frequently performs at clubs
(11:18):
such as the Village, vanguardand the Blue Note.
Ernest has also shared thestage with legendary musicians
such as the Duke EllingtonOrchestra and Aretha Franklin.
From 2010 to 2017, he alsotoured internationally with
Brooklyn Bongra Band, red Barat.
In 2012, ernest founded theCenter City Jazz Festival in
Philadelphia.
The annual event has grown inpopularity so much that it has
(11:39):
become a must attend destinationfor jazz enthusiasts from
Philadelphia and its nearbycities.
He has also recorded andreleased an album, solitary
Walker, and two EPs Love Lossand Same Walking Animals that
all include original tracks.
One thing is for sure Ernest ismost certainly an original,
himself A fellow graduate of myalma mater, temple University.
(12:02):
I will disclose to all of you,our friends, that I consider
this man family and I'm soexcited that we all get to chat
today.
Welcome to the Musician CentricPodcast, ernest it's good to be
here.
Yay, let's go.
So I also I didn't mention thisin your bio, but I feel like
(12:22):
it's worth starting out talkingabout.
You keep yourself pretty busy,as all of us do, and over the
years we've had a lot of ideageneration things.
But one of the things you didrecently was because you didn't
have enough on your plate.
You decided during COVID wouldbe a good idea to go to Columbia
University and get a Masters inArts admin correct Kind of as
(12:44):
you do.
Ernest (12:45):
So I you know, after about two weeks of sitting
around during the pandemic I wasjust like all right, the tours
aren't coming back, so I have tofigure out what to do for the
rest of this year or theforeseeable future, and I
decided to begin looking at gradschools.
I initially was looking to get aMasters in performance and that
(13:08):
just didn't seem like the bestuse of my time.
I wanted to broaden myeducation and broaden my
knowledge, and because I went toschool for undergrad as a
performance major, I thoughtthat I should do something less
specific and more broad.
So I then began looking atbusiness just sort of is there
(13:30):
like any MBA programs that I canlook at?
And then I began thinking aboutthe work that I've done with
the festival and my sort ofcorrespondences and time working
with organizations, arts,nonprofits.
I began to think seriouslyabout the nonprofit world and
maybe my experiences wereleading me there instead of just
(13:51):
a sort of general businessdegree.
So I decided to search aroundfor nonprofit management degrees
and I landed on Columbiabecause they had a one year
degree track, which isabsolutely insane.
Steph (14:04):
That sounds intense.
Ernest (14:05):
Yeah, it's a two or three year degree that is going
to sort of be compressed intoone year.
And it's Columbia, so theydon't care about your personal
time or life or comfort.
Liz (14:22):
Comfort and toddler in the house.
Ernest (14:23):
Mental health yeah you know, they're just like I don't
know so.
I somehow convinced them to letme in and I began.
My original thinking was OK,I'll take a year off of anything
and by the time that year isdone, this is 2020, spring 2020.
I'm like, by the time this yearis over, we'll be back into the
(14:44):
swing of things.
I'll get to decide what toursare available and all of these
things.
So, ultimately, I was wrongabout that.
Liz (14:53):
I probably, yeah, I probably didn't need to do that
in one year.
So you now have a new positionwhere you are using that degree
right.
Ernest (15:01):
Sure, I'm a program director at Regional Arts
Foundation, midaglantic Arts,which is very weird to complete
the pivot, you know like it'sone thing to initiate the pivot,
but to actually complete thepivot is strange.
Steph (15:16):
So you were coming from a pretty much all performing side
of thing.
Right Before the pandemic youwere touring, you were
performing as a freelancer in.
Ernest (15:25):
New York?
Sure, yes, and I also created ajazz festival, so that's where
all of my administrative so youwere really kind of keyed into
the needs right.
Steph (15:37):
The needs of performers and organizations.
So, now that you've completedyour pivot, what do you see from
the other side that you didn'tsee as like a performer?
Where are you focusing yourefforts now?
Ernest (15:51):
Yeah, well, you know, I think one of the things that
make or that made me aninteresting candidate for this
position was my experience,because, quite frankly, there's
a lack of performers whoactually pivot into a grant
making role.
You know, when you look around,there aren't very many people
(16:13):
who have a long history as aperformer making decisions about
the flow of grants or money toplaces that ultimately serve
performers and artists andthings like that.
So, seeing how performersaren't in these roles or in
these positions, it's reallyinteresting to see how a lot of
decisions were made prior to,like me, being there, where they
(16:36):
were more centered on theinstitution, on the Performing
Arts Center, and putting thePerforming Arts Center in the
center of the decision to mesaying, well, but what about the
artists?
You know, if it weren't for theartists, then these, you know,
performing Arts Center wouldn'texist, we wouldn't need that,
and I mean and the vice versaisn't true.
You know, without PerformingArts Centers, there would still
(16:58):
be artists, there would still bemusicians all these, you know.
So how about we focus on theartist and think more critically
about how to serve them andmake their lives easier?
Liz (17:09):
That makes total sense.
It's interesting to even thinkabout the fact that that's not
necessarily the center of thefocus up to this point.
But again, I mean this comes torepresentation at the table.
Ernest (17:19):
Of course.
Liz (17:19):
If a musician isn't sitting there saying hey, how does this
apply to the person?
Steph (17:24):
who's?
Liz (17:24):
doing the Performing, then how do they know?
How do they know?
Steph (17:27):
Right, well, even just like a conversation being like
what is our biggest priority andeveryone being on the same page
.
It seems like everyone's doingtheir best, but they have a
different priority or adifferent.
They're coming at it from adifferent angle, but if
everybody just got on the samepage, yeah.
Ernest (17:43):
Yeah, well, I think that's sort of.
Oftentimes funders have theirown priorities and they just
lean into that, and sometimesit's not artist led ambition or
goal.
It's more focused on thingsthat may eventually trickle down
to artists, but ultimatelythere needs to be more artists,
sort of pivoting into theseroles for sure.
(18:06):
I think it's great to haveartists who fill other roles
like teaching, but artsadministrators are often people
who haven't gone on a tour orhaven't had to survive off of
gigs and finding gigs andhustling, and it's not to say
that they aren't empathetic, butof course it certainly affects
(18:27):
the way that they might grant,make you know and, to answer
your original question, that'swhat I'm seeing is as being the
most sort of surprising thingthat maybe I knew going into it,
but I wouldn't, I certainlywouldn't have this level of
understanding until I was in themiddle of it.
Liz (18:42):
Yeah, cause for center city just as well.
You would have been applyingfor the grants.
You wouldn't have necessarilybeen like making the grants.
So I mean that in particular,like you have this targeted
example of when you're applyingfor these grants, like if you
ran up against any walls, youdidn't know why, you didn't
really understand, or you didn'tknow what was available, or
things weren't available thatyou needed, and now you're
(19:03):
looking at it from the otherside and saying, okay, I can
kind of see why that's the caseExactly.
Ernest (19:07):
And you know you begin to understand why certain
organizations or people getmoney more frequently than
others.
You know, and I think some ofthose tables are turning where
applications are beginning toreflect the field a bit more in
the ability of the field, youknow musicians tend to be sort
of intimidated by applying forgrants.
(19:30):
Yeah, not everyone across theboard, of course, but the
reality is that the funds weregoing to people, and still do go
to people who are grant writers.
Yes, but those aren'tnecessarily the most talented or
the most visionary artists inthe world I mean yes, so so yeah
, there's, but there have beenefforts made to bring the
(19:52):
funding community to where theartist community, you just you
see these efforts being made tomake applications more
streamlined and more simple.
And how do we get to the cruxof the project and this
initiative?
And it's been nice to see thatfor sure.
Liz (20:07):
I'm thinking about this from the perspective of.
We talk a lot on the podcastabout just the structure that
was in place for us in terms ofeducation as musicians and what
was perhaps lacking in thateducational experience.
Ernest (20:19):
Oh, for sure.
Liz (20:20):
And grant writing is a great example.
Ernest (20:22):
Oh, I think about that all the time oh it's so
frustrating.
Liz (20:24):
Unless you go for Arts Admin, you don't have a clue how
to write a grant, and I, youknow running my own stuff.
I don't know how to do thatbecause I don't have that skill
set.
Could I learn it?
Yes, but how time consuming isit to then figure that out on
top of everything else going on?
Whereas if you just have a wayto articulate your project in a
compelling manner.
Ernest (20:42):
Well, you know, when we were at Temple there was a
writing component to the degree.
We had to take writing classes,or at least I had to take a
writing class.
Wait what writing classes didwe add?
Yeah, I had to take writingclasses I forgot.
Like you know the things thatwe were writing about.
It was great to give you a wellrounded education, but I also
(21:07):
believe that we could havelearned those same techniques
while learning how to grant yes.
So grant writing could have beena part of the curriculum.
Oh, that's so good For a partof it.
Liz (21:18):
Yes, or, yeah, like one of the options.
Like you have to fulfill awriting requirement, here's one
that is career field related andyou can opt for instead Because
, yeah, I mean, I enjoy creativewriting.
Yeah, and but how to apply thatto a grant.
I have no idea.
Ernest (21:33):
And that's the.
You know.
It's really interesting thateven the business of music class
was lacking.
Yes, you know, and it was likeone, and it just wasn't at all.
Yeah, I think in order for thesemusic programs which are going
to start, I'm sure they havealready for years been
struggling to maintain incomefrom students signing up for
(21:54):
these degrees.
If they want to have any hope,they need to sort of rethink
from the bottom up what theirpurposes are.
And it's not just to tellpeople how to play a scale or
how to improvise.
That's only one part of the pie.
You have to be a functionalartist and you have to if you
want to make a career out ofbeing an artist.
(22:15):
There's so much more that goesinto it that it isn't just sit
in this room, learn to play thisscale.
All that is extremely important, but that's not the only thing
that's extremely important.
Steph (22:28):
I do feel like it is changing.
At universities You're seeingmore of these business of music
classes and our friend, lauraColgate ran a program at
University of Maryland where itwas all about having an
initiative and the final projectis actually implementing
whatever that initiative isnonprofit or for-profit or
whatever.
It is almost like a shark tankkind of situation for college
(22:51):
students.
So that is coming around, Ithink.
But yeah, it's definitely a bigchange from where we were,
where it was like find anorchestra job or teach.
Ernest (23:00):
For jazz musicians.
Liz (23:01):
It's even crazier.
Ernest (23:03):
I've always kind of found myself on the other side
of things.
So when I went from being atouring musician to running a
festival creating a festival,then running it and having to
work with musicians from thisother place on the bandstand as
a presenter it became clear justsome basic functional things
(23:25):
that jazz musicians were andthis isn't a dig against jazz
musicians as much as it's a dig.
It is a dig but it's a digagainst sort of the music school
.
Liz (23:41):
We have the same problem.
I think.
Unless you are in a positionwhere you, like you said, where
you're the presenter or you'rethe facilitator, you're the one
doing the hiring, or, howeveryou want to put it, the general
field of musicians, at leastfrom our generation and older,
they're a lot of lacking skills.
It's just that we're not taughtto think that way unless you're
wired that way.
I mean, you're wired that way.
(24:02):
You were selling real estatetoo, back in the day.
Ernest (24:05):
Oh my goodness, yeah, I forgot about that.
I got my real estate license.
Yeah, I got my real estatelicense.
What I remember turning 21 andhaving my real estate license.
Yeah, I guess I kind of alwayshad that sort of inclination.
It was a really interestingtime.
(24:28):
Well, I got into real estateright as the bubble burst and
all those like subprimemortgages were like.
It was just, it was ridiculousEverything that was happening.
You know, I was watching thewhat's the movie with Brad Pitt.
Steph (24:47):
The Big Short the.
Ernest (24:47):
Big Short and I just I started having flashbacks about
my life.
Liz (24:51):
I was gonna say were you like, this is my life.
Ernest (24:53):
Yeah, it was so I was triggered.
I was like, oh my goodness yeah, I was there you know I mean
people when people startedrealizing that they shouldn't
buy that fourth home under$50,000 salary.
You know, it was just like.
You know it was a shock.
Liz (25:13):
It's not funny.
Ernest (25:14):
No, it's crazy, it's crazy.
Liz (25:17):
It's crazy, super crazy.
Ernest (25:18):
And I remember bringing it back around to like music.
You know I was, I was in schoolat that point and I had finals,
and you know I was doingclosings at the same time as
like you were like.
Liz (25:31):
You were like.
You were shown up to finals inyour seat.
Yeah, it was crazy.
Ernest (25:35):
It was such a ridiculous time and it went from that to
like almost overnight, went tono one is calling the offices,
no one, you know because all ofthose adjustable rate mortgages
started creeping up and everyonestarted freaking out and
getting scared.
So it's just instantly thebottom was taken out of the real
(25:56):
estate market and I was sittingaround like, oh my God, what am
I going to do?
Because all of my interest, orall of my focus rather, was sort
of going towards real estateand I must have been, like, you
know, like a freshman orsophomore or something, and I
was not working, no income,nothing was happening.
(26:16):
And I got a call from thistrombonist named Brent White who
needed me to sub for for him onsome Atlantic City shows.
And it's just instantly like,oh my goodness, what have I been
doing?
Like music is is showing upagain to save my life.
You know I've been ignoring itthis whole time, focusing on
(26:38):
these real estate ambitions ofmine, but you know, the reality
is that music was going to bailme out and it did and I walked
out of my real estate officethat I was working out of like a
century 21 office, and neverwent back.
Steph (26:53):
You know, I think that's so interesting because we can
all relate.
All of us here can relatebecause I personally left music
after I graduated and I just gota completely unrelated job in
telecom, because that was thetime that I was graduating.
Liz (27:08):
I love it so much.
Steph (27:09):
Anyway, telecom was still a thing and I became a project
manager.
I was like a 21 year oldproject manager, you know,
telling all these developers andtelling them what to do.
And then I had this momentwhere I was like what am I doing
?
What am I doing?
I need to have music in my life, because there was no music in
my life.
And then I went back, I cameback to it, started taking
lessons, auditioned, et cetera.
(27:30):
But, liz, you have a similarstory too, where you walked away
and then came back.
Liz (27:34):
I did that Central Pennsylvania stint for a little
while and I worked, I mean, Istayed adjacent because, I was
in entertainment, booking forevents and stuff.
I always explain it as a voice.
For me it was just like thisinternal voice.
It just got louder and louderevery year and it wasn't that I
wasn't in a good situation.
I was in a really goodsituation with a lot of future
(27:55):
potential.
And the person who runs thatbusiness.
She's like family still, andactually the hardest part was
leaving because of that, but shewas so encouraging of me
pursuing my reality that it wasokay.
But it's interesting toobecause I really feel like I
don't know the real estatestories.
It's like you're riding thiswave and you're like making this
money and you're doing reallywell at it and so your brain is
(28:17):
going okay, this is working,this is working, this is working
.
Then it starts to fall apart,which is, of course, a lesson in
impermanence that nothing lasts, and, lo and behold, this thing
presents itself to you.
That is like synchronicity tothe ultimate.
And I also want to say it'sreally interesting for me to
think about as your friend andknowing you back then, because
and maybe you felt it, maybe youknew it there was a point where
(28:39):
, all of a sudden, all of us whowere your friends were like
holy bleep, earnest, likesomething happened to you.
This was a fire that just gotlit under you and you are a
beast on your instrument, you'reso good, and it was just like
you were free.
Something happened and it justfelt like you were free to just
be a musician and you let it go.
I don't know how else toexplain it and I don't know if
that resonates, but that's myperception of your experience
(29:02):
when we were younger.
Ernest (29:02):
Yeah, you know, I got to a point in school where I
realized that I had a coupleyears left at Temple.
With amazing people and yeah,with amazing people, and I
really had to come to grips withthe fact that if I never got
called for a gig from any of myprofessors it would be my fault,
(29:24):
because I knew that that was apotential source of from other
professors or you know, sort oflooking around town to see what
was happening around Philly atthe time.
Liz (29:34):
Oh yeah, that's true.
Ernest (29:35):
You know, trying to figure out okay, how can I do
this, how can I do this?
So I basically put a lot ofenergy into okay, I'm not very
good at the trombone.
Right now I need to get muchbetter in order for this to be
viable.
You know, like a noder for meto work, I can't be bad at the
trombone.
You know, Like it's not goingto work.
Liz (29:59):
This isn't going to happen.
Ernest (30:01):
Yeah, it just isn't going to happen, I'm not going
to get called.
So I basically began doinganything I could to get better.
You know, I remember this onetime I was at Ort Leafs, this
jazz club in Philly, and duringthis period of time someone told
me that I didn't sound goodplaying rhythm changes, which is
like a type of song form likethe blues, and, just like man,
(30:21):
you don't sound good playingrhythm changes.
You sound like you don't knowwhat you're doing.
Liz (30:27):
Oh, I know who said that.
Ernest (30:30):
So I went home that night it was probably like one
o'clock in the morning and I satin the backseat of my car, like
in between the two front seats,and I just played rhythm
changes for hours, like I wasn'tgetting out of my car until I
felt like I had gotten like alittle better playing and like
that just kicked off this wholething where you just like I'm
(30:51):
not going to set this level ofeven now, after this pandemic
and all of the other crazythings that have happened over
the past couple of years, I wentback and began taking lessons
again, just jazz lessons,Because I'm like I'm not playing
as well as I want to be playingright now.
I have to get back into thisrhythm.
I want to make sure that thatpart of my brain doesn't atrophy
(31:15):
.
You know I need to keep learningunderstanding this music and, I
think, sort of varying off intoa different topic.
When you're touring and you'replaying music all the time,
especially if you're on tour forlike six years, five years,
three years even, you can justdial into that music and the
needs of that gig and onlyyou're like, you're incredibly,
(31:40):
incredibly proficient in that,exactly, exactly and your
proficiency in that lane growsor you get like as good as you
need to be in order to besuccessful, to maintain that
sort of work, and that's whatyou do and you begin to realize
like, oh my goodness, I can't dothis other thing anymore.
(32:01):
It becomes scary and eventuallyyou kind of have to get to the
point where you're like okay, Ineed to fix this.
And this isn't the first time.
Throughout the years I was onstage playing with John Legend
and I'm like my chops suck.
I feel like I'm barely hangingon.
My trombone playing hassuffered a lot over the years.
(32:23):
So right after that tour ended,I began taking trombone lessons
just basic trombone lessons,not jazz, not just learn to play
your instrument.
And still, that led me to otherlessons.
Like, okay, let me take somejazz lessons, let me do this,
let me do that Humbling myself,and like I need some information
from you.
Can you teach me something?
You know it.
Steph (32:43):
Yeah, that area, that place of growth, happens, I
think, when we allow ourselvesto feel like beginners at
something.
What do I think?
I know that I don't really know?
Ernest (32:53):
Yeah Well, it's always fascinating, and maybe you're so
vulnerable.
Steph (32:56):
It's about being vulnerable.
You're vulnerable to acceptthat criticism and not let it
beat you down, but let it feedyou?
Ernest (33:05):
Yeah, of course.
Steph (33:05):
And yeah.
Ernest (33:07):
Yeah, and I think about other artists who are always
shifting and changing theirproduct or whatever they're
producing as their art.
It's always amazing to me thatpeople are willing to take risks
, and anytime you take a risk,you have to assume some level of
vulnerability and I think thatmaintaining it.
(33:29):
You know the person that I'mtaking lessons with now.
They're younger than me.
You know like they're a kid youknow, and but I'm very happy to
say I have no idea what I'mdoing.
I think at this I need yourhelp and I have no problem doing
that.
Liz (33:47):
You know I have no problem with that.
Well, there's always somethingto learn.
For the record, though, you'venever really been bad at the
trombone.
Let's just get that out in theopen now.
I mean, you're all our owntoughest critic, but you know.
Thank you so much for listeningtoday.
(34:07):
If you loved this episode,consider writing us a five star
review on Apple podcasts, amazonmusic, spotify or wherever you
listen.
Steph (34:15):
Thanks also to our season sponsor, Potter Violence.
Liz (34:19):
If you'd like to support the podcast and get access to
bonus content, consider joiningour Patreon community.
Steph (34:25):
You can buy all your Musician-centric merch,
including shirts, water bottles,koozies and a variety of other
fun items.
Liz (34:33):
Our theme music was written and produced by JP Wogerman and
is performed by Steph andmyself.
Steph (34:38):
Our episodes are produced by Liz O'Hara and edited by
Emily McMahon.
Liz (34:42):
Thanks again for listening.
Let's talk soon.
So, liz, have you heard about this alphabet technique to
calm yourself down?
Liz (00:04):
before you go to sleep.
No, but I need it.
Steph (00:07):
Okay, I heard this, I don't know, someplace like on
Instagram or I'm not on TikTok,but I think that's where it
originated.
But anyway, it's this woman whois actually like an ADHD coach
and, from what I understand,people who have this
neurological condition.
Their mind is like racing allthe time, right, racing, racing.
And I don't think this is justpeople with ADHD Right and the
(00:29):
long ass has not laid in bedthinking about all the awkward
conversations that you have thatday.
Oh, just replaying everything,but anyway.
So you're laying in bed and youpick a category of anything
Could be fruits, vegetables,cities, composers, whatever and
you focus on your breathing.
On the inhale, you think aboutthe letter On the exhale, you
(00:52):
think about a word from thatcategory that starts with that
letter.
So it might be apple.
That's what I was thinking aboutyes or in go through the whole
alphabet, so B banana cantaloupewhatever whatever your next
word would be and so it justkind of helps you to keep your
brain occupied but not onanything that's high stakes and
let you calm down internally bycontrolling your breath, this
(01:16):
kind of thing.
And I swear I never get like toM, you don't get to M, I'm
always asleep.
I don't.
I never get halfway through.
Liz (01:22):
Do you do this every night?
Steph (01:23):
Most nights I do Since I learned about it, that's good to
know.
Liz (01:26):
I'll have to try it.
I'll have to try it tonight,yeah try it.
Steph (01:29):
Try it you guys.
Yeah, please, welcome to theMusician Centric podcast.
We are two freelance violistsliving and laughing our way
through conversations thatexplore what it means to be a
professional musician in today'sworld.
I'm Steph and.
Liz (01:44):
I'm Liz and we're so glad you joined us.
Let's dive in.
Happy New Year, everybody.
Steph (01:54):
Oh my gosh, that's right.
I haven't even talked to yousince last year.
Liz (01:58):
It's been a long time yeah.
Steph (02:00):
So how's your New Year going?
How are your resolutions comingalong?
How many have you broken yourfavorite thing?
Resolutions.
I hate resolutions.
I never make them.
Liz (02:10):
I haven't made any resolutions either.
I am in a year of just kind ofgoing with the flow.
I'm just going to ride it outand see what happens.
I think everyone's January waslike an eternity long.
Steph (02:21):
So long for all these memes.
Is it always the 85th day ofJanuary?
Is it always like that?
I don't know.
It definitely has felt like thelongest month ever.
Liz (02:33):
I mean, really, yesterday was the last day of January for
when we're recording this.
When you look back at January1st, so much life has happened
and yet so little life hashappened for me.
It's really interesting.
I've been taking a lot of time.
Space has been a reallygrateful thing.
I feel like it's just I don'tknow, I'm kind of allowing
(02:53):
winter to just give me anopportunity to rest and keep
joking about this, but we'll seewhat happens as the months go
on.
I can't remember the firstperson who echoed this sentiment
to me, but I was saying, yeah,I mean right now, I'm just like
not in a hurry, I'm not really,I've just taken a lot of time to
myself and I like the idea ofkeeping it this way all year.
And then I said, but you know,springtime, liz, is a different
(03:15):
story.
She's a different girl.
We'll have to see what happens.
Steph (03:20):
I'm shaking my head.
Liz (03:22):
It's a nice thought.
Also, though, I'm sure I havesaid something very similar in
previous years, even on thispodcast that maybe winter is
just a good opportunity to goslow and just be okay going slow
, because that's really what ourbodies want to do anyway, just
like sleep is a good time forrecharge, january is a good time
for recharge.
(03:42):
Hopefully I did a lot of that.
Yeah, I'll try to display it.
I have a vision board in my-.
Steph (03:47):
Oh, take a picture and we'll put it on.
Okay, instagram, I will.
Liz (03:51):
How about you?
Steph (03:52):
You had a really great oh yeah, I was up in New York but
not in the city, in the state,at a musical retreat called
Magic Mountain Music Farm, whichI've gone to before, and it was
just, it was really, reallywonderful.
It was time where I didn't haveany of my usual
responsibilities and I was ableto focus on just music, just the
(04:12):
betterment of my craft, reallythinking deeply about my musical
ideas and my musical identityand being with people who were
also on that same journey, andit was just a beautiful,
picturesque.
We'll post some pictures Maybewe'll put your vision board and
some pictures from my retreatbut it was really recharging,
yeah, so then, great, and it's agood way to start the year, I
(04:33):
feel like, because it gets meback in the mindset of oh, I'm a
musician first, I have allthese other qualities, but this
is where my heart really lies,and you get pulled away from
that sometimes just with thewhole year of being in the world
.
Liz (04:48):
Yeah, definitely.
I think it's really cool.
I'm sure anybody who hears youdescribe it would say, oh my
gosh.
Yeah, go away for a couple ofweeks and just be immersed in
your musical project, whateverthat was for the time and
however that translates, it'sjust setting things in motion or
planting seeds.
Steph (05:09):
Yes, that's really what I was after.
I just need lots of seeds, yeah, and we'll just see what starts
to grow.
Liz (05:16):
Yeah, when you think about it, that's really like this time
of year those things are alldormant a little bit and then
once springtime comes, they makethis sort of like actually
sometimes painful like burst tothe surface and then they
flourish, and I think there's somuch in nature.
I think recently about that.
I'm like, yeah, if I can justkind of remember that this is
(05:36):
sort of the cycle of things thathappen in life, for anything
else that exists on our planetas well, it's kind of nice.
It's kind of takes the pressureoff.
It's like you're at a phase inyour life that you're not really
you want to be somewhere else,but sometimes not, yeah,
Sometimes.
Steph (05:53):
That's a really lovely thought we're just part of.
We're another life form on thisearth, and why wouldn't we have
patterns, just like any otherlife form on this earth does?
Liz (06:02):
Yeah, and of course we've created a lot of societal
structure to things to help usbe a bit more organized than the
average animal roaming aroundon the planet.
But deep thoughts with Liz andSteph, the average animal
roaming around on the planet.
But internally, I think there'sa lot of truth to this.
(06:22):
I think about it more and more.
Every year I get older, I thinkabout this.
I try to remember what seasonI'm literally in and if any of
the struggle is coming fromtrying to resist the season I'm
in, you know.
Yeah, that is deep thoughts.
There you go, Welcome to 2024.
Steph (06:38):
Yes, and with the new year we have new goals, but we
also have new guests for you.
Yes, so we're also tryingsomething a little bit different
with the structure of ourepisodes this year.
So you know, not everybody hasan hour to listen to a podcast
every week or every other weekor whatever.
So Liz and I were talking andwe decided that maybe we would
(07:00):
experiment with cutting theepisodes in half, and so you can
digest the first half of ourtalk with any guest and then let
it process and then maybe lateron we'll release the second
half of that episode and thenyou can have the full
conversation in your brain.
Liz (07:15):
Yeah, We've had some conversations about just feeling
this general sense of overwhelmfrom our community and from
people in general.
Right now, I think everybody'sjust kind of overloaded a lot of
the times and, you know, unlessyour life is structured in such
a way that you can commit timein a significant way, I think
sometimes it can even just feeloverwhelming to look at
(07:36):
something and think, oh my gosh,this is almost an hour long.
I don't know when I'm going tohave time, even if you could
break it up yourself, maybe justlooking at it and saying, oh,
this one's only like 35 minuteslong.
I can listen to this on mydrive, you know, and it'll be
done, and so we're just going togive this a try and let us know
what you think.
I know a lot of you have beenjust enjoying this podcast and
(07:56):
listening loyally for a longtime and probably aren't
bothered by the 55 minute timeframe.
So please let us know what youthink too about us breaking it
up.
But we're also going to justtry to see what else we can
offer you throughout the winterand spring this year.
Steph (08:10):
Yeah, some exciting things that we're working on so
stay tuned here.
Liz (08:14):
So our first guest of 2024, it's actually a conversation we
recorded a while back, but justin terms of the production
schedule it worked out to be ourfirst one of this year is with
my very good friend from college, brilliant trombonist named
Ernest Stewart, and this wasSteph's first time meeting
Ernest, so I was like reallyexcited about that because I've
(08:36):
been wanting him to join us onthe podcast for some time and it
was great to finally make ithappen.
Steph (08:40):
Yeah, I really love to meeting him.
He's so thoughtful and he hasthis quiet exterior, but there's
a lot going on and simmeringunderneath there.
Liz (08:50):
Yes, 100%.
Steph (08:52):
And he's really done a lot in his career so far.
From being a jazz trainedmusician, he's definitely a
jazzer, which is an awesome kindof flavor of musician that we
haven't had on this podcast alot.
So it was really great to hearhis point of view coming from
that side of that genre of musicand just his attitude of just
(09:15):
being open to whatever presentsitself to him is really really
admirable yeah.
Liz (09:22):
Yeah, he's had a really impressive career thus far.
He's been on tours.
He talks with us about thesynchronicity of things in his
life, which of course we love,and we also talk a little bit
about his most recent careerpath shift, which is in the
world of grant writing and grantmaking, and we just discuss a
(09:42):
little bit about potentiallywhat the artist's role is in
that world and how maybe we're alittle underrepresented in that
part of things.
So that was really interestingtoo to explore.
It was just a greatconversation.
I'm really excited foreverybody to listen to it.
Steph (09:57):
Yeah, so enjoy this here, the first half of our
conversation with Ernest Stewart.
Liz (10:04):
Located in a historic mansion in Tacoma Park, maryland
, you might get the impressionthat the team at Potter Violins
are as formal as thebreathtaking building that they
work in, but when you go insideinstead, you'll find the most
relatable, skilled and friendlystaff.
Steph (10:17):
Yes, the people at Potters are what really make it
a special place.
I love visiting because I knowthat whoever I work with is not
going to make me feel like I'mcrazy or just being picky.
They're kind of like yourfavorite bartender.
They're great listeners whogive you what you need without
judgment.
Liz (10:34):
Yes, their technicians are not only super talented,
creative and resourceful, theytake the time to collaborate
with you so that the process ofgetting your instrument at its
best really feels like apartnership.
Steph (10:45):
So if you're in the area, definitely stop by and
introduce yourself to Chris, robKimberly, derek, jim, melissa
and the whole team, or visitPotterViolinscom to find what
you need online.
Liz (10:57):
It's so fitting, then, that their shop is in this beautiful
old house, because the staff atPotter's really makes it feel
like home.
New York City-based trombonistErnest Stewart is a recording
artist, touring performer, artsadministrator and a true
multi-passionate entrepreneur.
As a freelance jazz musician,he frequently performs at clubs
(11:18):
such as the Village, vanguardand the Blue Note.
Ernest has also shared thestage with legendary musicians
such as the Duke EllingtonOrchestra and Aretha Franklin.
From 2010 to 2017, he alsotoured internationally with
Brooklyn Bongra Band, red Barat.
In 2012, ernest founded theCenter City Jazz Festival in
Philadelphia.
The annual event has grown inpopularity so much that it has
(11:39):
become a must attend destinationfor jazz enthusiasts from
Philadelphia and its nearbycities.
He has also recorded andreleased an album, solitary
Walker, and two EPs Love Lossand Same Walking Animals that
all include original tracks.
One thing is for sure Ernest ismost certainly an original,
himself A fellow graduate of myalma mater, temple University.
(12:02):
I will disclose to all of you,our friends, that I consider
this man family and I'm soexcited that we all get to chat
today.
Welcome to the Musician CentricPodcast, ernest it's good to be
here.
Yay, let's go.
So I also I didn't mention thisin your bio, but I feel like
(12:22):
it's worth starting out talkingabout.
You keep yourself pretty busy,as all of us do, and over the
years we've had a lot of ideageneration things.
But one of the things you didrecently was because you didn't
have enough on your plate.
You decided during COVID wouldbe a good idea to go to Columbia
University and get a Masters inArts admin correct Kind of as
(12:44):
you do.
Ernest (12:45):
So I you know, after about two weeks of sitting
around during the pandemic I wasjust like all right, the tours
aren't coming back, so I have tofigure out what to do for the
rest of this year or theforeseeable future, and I
decided to begin looking at gradschools.
I initially was looking to get aMasters in performance and that
(13:08):
just didn't seem like the bestuse of my time.
I wanted to broaden myeducation and broaden my
knowledge, and because I went toschool for undergrad as a
performance major, I thoughtthat I should do something less
specific and more broad.
So I then began looking atbusiness just sort of is there
(13:30):
like any MBA programs that I canlook at?
And then I began thinking aboutthe work that I've done with
the festival and my sort ofcorrespondences and time working
with organizations, arts,nonprofits.
I began to think seriouslyabout the nonprofit world and
maybe my experiences wereleading me there instead of just
(13:51):
a sort of general businessdegree.
So I decided to search aroundfor nonprofit management degrees
and I landed on Columbiabecause they had a one year
degree track, which isabsolutely insane.
Steph (14:04):
That sounds intense.
Ernest (14:05):
Yeah, it's a two or three year degree that is going
to sort of be compressed intoone year.
And it's Columbia, so theydon't care about your personal
time or life or comfort.
Liz (14:22):
Comfort and toddler in the house.
Ernest (14:23):
Mental health yeah you know, they're just like I don't
know so.
I somehow convinced them to letme in and I began.
My original thinking was OK,I'll take a year off of anything
and by the time that year isdone, this is 2020, spring 2020.
I'm like, by the time this yearis over, we'll be back into the
(14:44):
swing of things.
I'll get to decide what toursare available and all of these
things.
So, ultimately, I was wrongabout that.
Liz (14:53):
I probably, yeah, I probably didn't need to do that
in one year.
So you now have a new positionwhere you are using that degree
right.
Ernest (15:01):
Sure, I'm a program director at Regional Arts
Foundation, midaglantic Arts,which is very weird to complete
the pivot, you know like it'sone thing to initiate the pivot,
but to actually complete thepivot is strange.
Steph (15:16):
So you were coming from a pretty much all performing side
of thing.
Right Before the pandemic youwere touring, you were
performing as a freelancer in.
Ernest (15:25):
New York?
Sure, yes, and I also created ajazz festival, so that's where
all of my administrative so youwere really kind of keyed into
the needs right.
Steph (15:37):
The needs of performers and organizations.
So, now that you've completedyour pivot, what do you see from
the other side that you didn'tsee as like a performer?
Where are you focusing yourefforts now?
Ernest (15:51):
Yeah, well, you know, I think one of the things that
make or that made me aninteresting candidate for this
position was my experience,because, quite frankly, there's
a lack of performers whoactually pivot into a grant
making role.
You know, when you look around,there aren't very many people
(16:13):
who have a long history as aperformer making decisions about
the flow of grants or money toplaces that ultimately serve
performers and artists andthings like that.
So, seeing how performersaren't in these roles or in
these positions, it's reallyinteresting to see how a lot of
decisions were made prior to,like me, being there, where they
(16:36):
were more centered on theinstitution, on the Performing
Arts Center, and putting thePerforming Arts Center in the
center of the decision to mesaying, well, but what about the
artists?
You know, if it weren't for theartists, then these, you know,
performing Arts Center wouldn'texist, we wouldn't need that,
and I mean and the vice versaisn't true.
You know, without PerformingArts Centers, there would still
(16:58):
be artists, there would still bemusicians all these, you know.
So how about we focus on theartist and think more critically
about how to serve them andmake their lives easier?
Liz (17:09):
That makes total sense.
It's interesting to even thinkabout the fact that that's not
necessarily the center of thefocus up to this point.
But again, I mean this comes torepresentation at the table.
Ernest (17:19):
Of course.
Liz (17:19):
If a musician isn't sitting there saying hey, how does this
apply to the person?
Steph (17:24):
who's?
Liz (17:24):
doing the Performing, then how do they know?
How do they know?
Steph (17:27):
Right, well, even just like a conversation being like
what is our biggest priority andeveryone being on the same page
.
It seems like everyone's doingtheir best, but they have a
different priority or adifferent.
They're coming at it from adifferent angle, but if
everybody just got on the samepage, yeah.
Ernest (17:43):
Yeah, well, I think that's sort of.
Oftentimes funders have theirown priorities and they just
lean into that, and sometimesit's not artist led ambition or
goal.
It's more focused on thingsthat may eventually trickle down
to artists, but ultimatelythere needs to be more artists,
sort of pivoting into theseroles for sure.
(18:06):
I think it's great to haveartists who fill other roles
like teaching, but artsadministrators are often people
who haven't gone on a tour orhaven't had to survive off of
gigs and finding gigs andhustling, and it's not to say
that they aren't empathetic, butof course it certainly affects
(18:27):
the way that they might grant,make you know and, to answer
your original question, that'swhat I'm seeing is as being the
most sort of surprising thingthat maybe I knew going into it,
but I wouldn't, I certainlywouldn't have this level of
understanding until I was in themiddle of it.
Liz (18:42):
Yeah, cause for center city just as well.
You would have been applyingfor the grants.
You wouldn't have necessarilybeen like making the grants.
So I mean that in particular,like you have this targeted
example of when you're applyingfor these grants, like if you
ran up against any walls, youdidn't know why, you didn't
really understand, or you didn'tknow what was available, or
things weren't available thatyou needed, and now you're
(19:03):
looking at it from the otherside and saying, okay, I can
kind of see why that's the caseExactly.
Ernest (19:07):
And you know you begin to understand why certain
organizations or people getmoney more frequently than
others.
You know, and I think some ofthose tables are turning where
applications are beginning toreflect the field a bit more in
the ability of the field, youknow musicians tend to be sort
of intimidated by applying forgrants.
(19:30):
Yeah, not everyone across theboard, of course, but the
reality is that the funds weregoing to people, and still do go
to people who are grant writers.
Yes, but those aren'tnecessarily the most talented or
the most visionary artists inthe world I mean yes, so so yeah
, there's, but there have beenefforts made to bring the
(19:52):
funding community to where theartist community, you just you
see these efforts being made tomake applications more
streamlined and more simple.
And how do we get to the cruxof the project and this
initiative?
And it's been nice to see thatfor sure.
Liz (20:07):
I'm thinking about this from the perspective of.
We talk a lot on the podcastabout just the structure that
was in place for us in terms ofeducation as musicians and what
was perhaps lacking in thateducational experience.
Ernest (20:19):
Oh, for sure.
Liz (20:20):
And grant writing is a great example.
Ernest (20:22):
Oh, I think about that all the time oh it's so
frustrating.
Liz (20:24):
Unless you go for Arts Admin, you don't have a clue how
to write a grant, and I, youknow running my own stuff.
I don't know how to do thatbecause I don't have that skill
set.
Could I learn it?
Yes, but how time consuming isit to then figure that out on
top of everything else going on?
Whereas if you just have a wayto articulate your project in a
compelling manner.
Ernest (20:42):
Well, you know, when we were at Temple there was a
writing component to the degree.
We had to take writing classes,or at least I had to take a
writing class.
Wait what writing classes didwe add?
Yeah, I had to take writingclasses I forgot.
Like you know the things thatwe were writing about.
It was great to give you a wellrounded education, but I also
(21:07):
believe that we could havelearned those same techniques
while learning how to grant yes.
So grant writing could have beena part of the curriculum.
Oh, that's so good For a partof it.
Liz (21:18):
Yes, or, yeah, like one of the options.
Like you have to fulfill awriting requirement, here's one
that is career field related andyou can opt for instead Because
, yeah, I mean, I enjoy creativewriting.
Yeah, and but how to apply thatto a grant.
I have no idea.
Ernest (21:33):
And that's the.
You know.
It's really interesting thateven the business of music class
was lacking.
Yes, you know, and it was likeone, and it just wasn't at all.
Yeah, I think in order for thesemusic programs which are going
to start, I'm sure they havealready for years been
struggling to maintain incomefrom students signing up for
(21:54):
these degrees.
If they want to have any hope,they need to sort of rethink
from the bottom up what theirpurposes are.
And it's not just to tellpeople how to play a scale or
how to improvise.
That's only one part of the pie.
You have to be a functionalartist and you have to if you
want to make a career out ofbeing an artist.
(22:15):
There's so much more that goesinto it that it isn't just sit
in this room, learn to play thisscale.
All that is extremely important, but that's not the only thing
that's extremely important.
Steph (22:28):
I do feel like it is changing.
At universities You're seeingmore of these business of music
classes and our friend, lauraColgate ran a program at
University of Maryland where itwas all about having an
initiative and the final projectis actually implementing
whatever that initiative isnonprofit or for-profit or
whatever.
It is almost like a shark tankkind of situation for college
(22:51):
students.
So that is coming around, Ithink.
But yeah, it's definitely a bigchange from where we were,
where it was like find anorchestra job or teach.
Ernest (23:00):
For jazz musicians.
Liz (23:01):
It's even crazier.
Ernest (23:03):
I've always kind of found myself on the other side
of things.
So when I went from being atouring musician to running a
festival creating a festival,then running it and having to
work with musicians from thisother place on the bandstand as
a presenter it became clear justsome basic functional things
(23:25):
that jazz musicians were andthis isn't a dig against jazz
musicians as much as it's a dig.
It is a dig but it's a digagainst sort of the music school
.
Liz (23:41):
We have the same problem.
I think.
Unless you are in a positionwhere you, like you said, where
you're the presenter or you'rethe facilitator, you're the one
doing the hiring, or, howeveryou want to put it, the general
field of musicians, at leastfrom our generation and older,
they're a lot of lacking skills.
It's just that we're not taughtto think that way unless you're
wired that way.
I mean, you're wired that way.
(24:02):
You were selling real estatetoo, back in the day.
Ernest (24:05):
Oh my goodness, yeah, I forgot about that.
I got my real estate license.
Yeah, I got my real estatelicense.
What I remember turning 21 andhaving my real estate license.
Yeah, I guess I kind of alwayshad that sort of inclination.
It was a really interestingtime.
(24:28):
Well, I got into real estateright as the bubble burst and
all those like subprimemortgages were like.
It was just, it was ridiculousEverything that was happening.
You know, I was watching thewhat's the movie with Brad Pitt.
Steph (24:47):
The Big Short the.
Ernest (24:47):
Big Short and I just I started having flashbacks about
my life.
Liz (24:51):
I was gonna say were you like, this is my life.
Ernest (24:53):
Yeah, it was so I was triggered.
I was like, oh my goodness yeah, I was there you know I mean
people when people startedrealizing that they shouldn't
buy that fourth home under$50,000 salary.
You know, it was just like.
You know it was a shock.
Liz (25:13):
It's not funny.
Ernest (25:14):
No, it's crazy, it's crazy.
Liz (25:17):
It's crazy, super crazy.
Ernest (25:18):
And I remember bringing it back around to like music.
You know I was, I was in schoolat that point and I had finals,
and you know I was doingclosings at the same time as
like you were like.
Liz (25:31):
You were like.
You were shown up to finals inyour seat.
Yeah, it was crazy.
Ernest (25:35):
It was such a ridiculous time and it went from that to
like almost overnight, went tono one is calling the offices,
no one, you know because all ofthose adjustable rate mortgages
started creeping up and everyonestarted freaking out and
getting scared.
So it's just instantly thebottom was taken out of the real
(25:56):
estate market and I was sittingaround like, oh my God, what am
I going to do?
Because all of my interest, orall of my focus rather, was sort
of going towards real estateand I must have been, like, you
know, like a freshman orsophomore or something, and I
was not working, no income,nothing was happening.
(26:16):
And I got a call from thistrombonist named Brent White who
needed me to sub for for him onsome Atlantic City shows.
And it's just instantly like,oh my goodness, what have I been
doing?
Like music is is showing upagain to save my life.
You know I've been ignoring itthis whole time, focusing on
(26:38):
these real estate ambitions ofmine, but you know, the reality
is that music was going to bailme out and it did and I walked
out of my real estate officethat I was working out of like a
century 21 office, and neverwent back.
Steph (26:53):
You know, I think that's so interesting because we can
all relate.
All of us here can relatebecause I personally left music
after I graduated and I just gota completely unrelated job in
telecom, because that was thetime that I was graduating.
Liz (27:08):
I love it so much.
Steph (27:09):
Anyway, telecom was still a thing and I became a project
manager.
I was like a 21 year oldproject manager, you know,
telling all these developers andtelling them what to do.
And then I had this momentwhere I was like what am I doing
?
What am I doing?
I need to have music in my life, because there was no music in
my life.
And then I went back, I cameback to it, started taking
lessons, auditioned, et cetera.
(27:30):
But, liz, you have a similarstory too, where you walked away
and then came back.
Liz (27:34):
I did that Central Pennsylvania stint for a little
while and I worked, I mean, Istayed adjacent because, I was
in entertainment, booking forevents and stuff.
I always explain it as a voice.
For me it was just like thisinternal voice.
It just got louder and louderevery year and it wasn't that I
wasn't in a good situation.
I was in a really goodsituation with a lot of future
(27:55):
potential.
And the person who runs thatbusiness.
She's like family still, andactually the hardest part was
leaving because of that, but shewas so encouraging of me
pursuing my reality that it wasokay.
But it's interesting toobecause I really feel like I
don't know the real estatestories.
It's like you're riding thiswave and you're like making this
money and you're doing reallywell at it and so your brain is
(28:17):
going okay, this is working,this is working, this is working
.
Then it starts to fall apart,which is, of course, a lesson in
impermanence that nothing lasts, and, lo and behold, this thing
presents itself to you.
That is like synchronicity tothe ultimate.
And I also want to say it'sreally interesting for me to
think about as your friend andknowing you back then, because
and maybe you felt it, maybe youknew it there was a point where
(28:39):
, all of a sudden, all of us whowere your friends were like
holy bleep, earnest, likesomething happened to you.
This was a fire that just gotlit under you and you are a
beast on your instrument, you'reso good, and it was just like
you were free.
Something happened and it justfelt like you were free to just
be a musician and you let it go.
I don't know how else toexplain it and I don't know if
that resonates, but that's myperception of your experience
(29:02):
when we were younger.
Ernest (29:02):
Yeah, you know, I got to a point in school where I
realized that I had a coupleyears left at Temple.
With amazing people and yeah,with amazing people, and I
really had to come to grips withthe fact that if I never got
called for a gig from any of myprofessors it would be my fault,
(29:24):
because I knew that that was apotential source of from other
professors or you know, sort oflooking around town to see what
was happening around Philly atthe time.
Liz (29:34):
Oh yeah, that's true.
Ernest (29:35):
You know, trying to figure out okay, how can I do
this, how can I do this?
So I basically put a lot ofenergy into okay, I'm not very
good at the trombone.
Right now I need to get muchbetter in order for this to be
viable.
You know, like a noder for meto work, I can't be bad at the
trombone.
You know, Like it's not goingto work.
Liz (29:59):
This isn't going to happen.
Ernest (30:01):
Yeah, it just isn't going to happen, I'm not going
to get called.
So I basically began doinganything I could to get better.
You know, I remember this onetime I was at Ort Leafs, this
jazz club in Philly, and duringthis period of time someone told
me that I didn't sound goodplaying rhythm changes, which is
like a type of song form likethe blues, and, just like man,
(30:21):
you don't sound good playingrhythm changes.
You sound like you don't knowwhat you're doing.
Liz (30:27):
Oh, I know who said that.
Ernest (30:30):
So I went home that night it was probably like one
o'clock in the morning and I satin the backseat of my car, like
in between the two front seats,and I just played rhythm
changes for hours, like I wasn'tgetting out of my car until I
felt like I had gotten like alittle better playing and like
that just kicked off this wholething where you just like I'm
(30:51):
not going to set this level ofeven now, after this pandemic
and all of the other crazythings that have happened over
the past couple of years, I wentback and began taking lessons
again, just jazz lessons,Because I'm like I'm not playing
as well as I want to be playingright now.
I have to get back into thisrhythm.
I want to make sure that thatpart of my brain doesn't atrophy
(31:15):
.
You know I need to keep learningunderstanding this music and, I
think, sort of varying off intoa different topic.
When you're touring and you'replaying music all the time,
especially if you're on tour forlike six years, five years,
three years even, you can justdial into that music and the
needs of that gig and onlyyou're like, you're incredibly,
(31:40):
incredibly proficient in that,exactly, exactly and your
proficiency in that lane growsor you get like as good as you
need to be in order to besuccessful, to maintain that
sort of work, and that's whatyou do and you begin to realize
like, oh my goodness, I can't dothis other thing anymore.
(32:01):
It becomes scary and eventuallyyou kind of have to get to the
point where you're like okay, Ineed to fix this.
And this isn't the first time.
Throughout the years I was onstage playing with John Legend
and I'm like my chops suck.
I feel like I'm barely hangingon.
My trombone playing hassuffered a lot over the years.
(32:23):
So right after that tour ended,I began taking trombone lessons
just basic trombone lessons,not jazz, not just learn to play
your instrument.
And still, that led me to otherlessons.
Like, okay, let me take somejazz lessons, let me do this,
let me do that Humbling myself,and like I need some information
from you.
Can you teach me something?
You know it.
Steph (32:43):
Yeah, that area, that place of growth, happens, I
think, when we allow ourselvesto feel like beginners at
something.
What do I think?
I know that I don't really know?
Ernest (32:53):
Yeah Well, it's always fascinating, and maybe you're so
vulnerable.
Steph (32:56):
It's about being vulnerable.
You're vulnerable to acceptthat criticism and not let it
beat you down, but let it feedyou?
Ernest (33:05):
Yeah, of course.
Steph (33:05):
And yeah.
Ernest (33:07):
Yeah, and I think about other artists who are always
shifting and changing theirproduct or whatever they're
producing as their art.
It's always amazing to me thatpeople are willing to take risks
, and anytime you take a risk,you have to assume some level of
vulnerability and I think thatmaintaining it.
(33:29):
You know the person that I'mtaking lessons with now.
They're younger than me.
You know like they're a kid youknow, and but I'm very happy to
say I have no idea what I'mdoing.
I think at this I need yourhelp and I have no problem doing
that.
Liz (33:47):
You know I have no problem with that.
Well, there's always somethingto learn.
For the record, though, you'venever really been bad at the
trombone.
Let's just get that out in theopen now.
I mean, you're all our owntoughest critic, but you know.
Thank you so much for listeningtoday.
(34:07):
If you loved this episode,consider writing us a five star
review on Apple podcasts, amazonmusic, spotify or wherever you
listen.
Steph (34:15):
Thanks also to our season sponsor, Potter Violence.
Liz (34:19):
If you'd like to support the podcast and get access to
bonus content, consider joiningour Patreon community.
Steph (34:25):
You can buy all your Musician-centric merch,
including shirts, water bottles,koozies and a variety of other
fun items.
Liz (34:33):
Our theme music was written and produced by JP Wogerman and
is performed by Steph andmyself.
Steph (34:38):
Our episodes are produced by Liz O'Hara and edited by
Emily McMahon.
Liz (34:42):
Thanks again for listening.
Let's talk soon.
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