February 12, 2024 • 24 mins
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** This is the second of two parts of our conversation. If you haven't yet, be sure to listen to the first part!
Pull up a chair and join the intimate discussion with Ernest Stewart, whose vast trombone performing experience transcends genres. Ernest now works with Mid Atlantic Arts, bringing his insights from stage to the boardroom, and shedding light on the significance of artists steering the grant-making wheel. We navigate through the complexities of the music industry, the untold value of mentorship, and the balancing act between growth and vulnerability. Ernest's story, punctuated with humor and warmth, serves as a beacon for any creative soul navigating the ever-evolving path to artistic fulfillment!
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Mentioned in this episode:
MidAtlantic Arts Foundation: https://www.midatlanticarts.org/
Ernest's website: http://erneststuart.com/
Ernest's album, Solitary Walker: listen here
************************
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey everybody, Welcome back to part two of our
episode with Trombonist ErnestStewart.
Just wanted to let you know ifyou are tuning in for the first
time and you may have missed it,this is the second half of a
conversation that we had withErnest.
You can find the first half ofthe conversation on the feed
just below or just prior.
(00:20):
I don't know how it's listed onyour particular listening
device, but you get the idea.
So we hope you enjoy the secondhalf of this conversation with
Ernest Stewart.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Welcome to the Musician-centric podcast.
We are two freelance violistsliving and laughing our way
through conversations thatexplore what it means to be a
professional musician in today'sworld.
I'm Steph.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
And I'm Liz, and we're so glad you've joined us.
Speaker 3 (00:49):
Let's dive in Honestly, I think you have to
trick yourself sometimes intotaking in new information, Even
if it's listening to music thatyou don't like.
That's new.
I see people kind of get intotheir bag and I have friends
that I went to high school withthat drive around listening to
the music that was popular whenthey were in high school and
(01:12):
it's like very comforting.
You know all the words to thesong and it's amazing.
You know the music that Ilisten to.
It's amazing that there is nowa station dedicated to music
from the early 2000s.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
That's classic rock now.
Yeah, yeah, it's like oldiesnow.
It's like oldies now.
Classical, yeah, the oldies.
Speaker 3 (01:33):
But I think that comfort is what kind of scares
the hell out of me, because I'mlike it's so comfortable in a
lower UN and you have to fightthat urge sometimes and just
sort of sit in a new areasomewhere, or else you start to
lose your neuroplasticity andyou just get you know, I think
it's important to just keeplearning and keep putting
(01:53):
yourself in these sort ofuncomfortable situations and
grow in those situations, yeah,or the wrong ones, and listen,
you can learn a lot from thewrong situations.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
What I can say you know what that's true.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
In any fast of the life, I can honestly say,
putting yourself in the wrongsituation often teaches some big
lessons.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
Well, there's so much , like you said, ernest, of like
there's so much comfort seekingin music, and it's fine.
I have days like that, too,where all I want to listen to is
stuff that I already know.
If you're an artist, though, Ithink one of your biggest
obligation duties in order tokeep growing is to put yourself
and listen to things that arenot comfortable for you, and if
(02:34):
they're not comfortable, you'llbe like OK, why is this not
comfortable?
And really likeself-examination and letting
yourself, just like in regularlife, processing feelings.
Let yourself process that andsit in the discomfort of it and
figure out why is this?
Ok, then you might learnsomething new about what you
like, what you don't like, whereyour growth areas are.
(02:54):
The music listening, I think,can be like that too.
Speaker 3 (02:57):
And I don't expect people to listen to anything I'm
saying right now about this,but the reality is that I feel
like my tastes, like I can useSpotify as a crutch or a tool.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
And I choose to use it as a tool to broaden.
That's cool.
Speaker 3 (03:12):
I mean, if you have all the music at your fingertips
, like who knows what's outthere that you can connect with,
that has nothing to do with thestuff you grew up listening to.
And it could be completely.
It could be early blues orearly country.
That's like folk music that youlike an album, that you stumble
across or that you hear asnippet of it somewhere and you
(03:33):
shit, shazam it and download thealbum and you're just like this
is incredible.
I love doing stuff like that,like I do that all the time and,
as a result, I get this reallywide sort of recommendations
from Spotify, where they're notjust sending me this one thing,
they're sending me stuff fromall over the place.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Okay, yeah, I can do this myself, is what you're
saying.
Speaker 3 (03:54):
Well, I mean, it's like if you don't think about it
, then you kind of just fallinto that thing or listening to
music just for, like your nextgig and not really listening to
other things.
I'm really bad at going out tosee concerts.
You know I'm terrible at thatand I need to spend way more
time going out to see concerts.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
Did you guys have a recital requirement?
Speaker 3 (04:17):
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
The pink slips.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
Remember the pink slips?
Yes, yeah.
You had to get it stamped orpunched or whatever.
Speaker 3 (04:24):
Just go to all my friends, or something.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
Yeah, but you don't realize what.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
How meaningful that is yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
How meaningful it is and how you wished like at this
stage in my life, I had arecital requirement because, you
know, you're required, once amonth at least, to go to a
concert that you're notperforming in, just to broaden
your horizons, and it could beanything.
Yeah, like it could be, no,100% you could set this for
yourself I'll make cards, cardsand we'll distribute them.
(04:53):
Recital requirement yeah, it'srecital requirement.
Speaker 3 (04:56):
I love challenges like that for yourself, Like
forcing yourself to do certainthings, to like grow in that way
.
Oh, it's amazing when you canforce yourself into that stuff.
It's great.
I have to remember that youknow, because I spent so much
time in these casual listeningenvironments like going to jazz
clubs Jam sessions.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
Like every single night.
Speaker 3 (05:14):
Yeah, you know you forget that.
Oh right, if there's shows thathappen at ticketed places and
you know you have to sometimespay a ticket to go in to see a
show and there's a ton ofartists that you love listening
to.
It's crazy to me that I've neverbeen to a James Blake concert.
You know, and I love listeningto James Blake, but it's wild
(05:34):
that I've, like over the yearssince I first discovered him,
like over 10 years ago I haven'tgone to a single James Blake
concert.
So I'm definitely going to getto a point where I'm trying to
rectify these terrible errors ofjudgment that I've displayed.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
Growth areas.
Speaker 3 (05:52):
Growth areas.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
Growth areas that's right, that's the reframe.
That's the reframe.
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Speaker 1 (06:55):
It's so fitting, then , that their shop is in this
beautiful old house, because thestaff at Potter's really makes
it feel like home.
So I want to ask you this is alittle bit of a pivot to the
conversation related to Jess butwhen you came to visit, it was
like almost two years ago nowand we were talking about this
little seed of an idea of aproject you had that.
(07:16):
I mean, I'm curious to know ifyou've developed that project
idea at all, but also, moreimportantly, the theme behind
the project idea, which was thatyou wanted to take all this
media you'd been learningphotography, go into video and
your knowledge of music and juststart trying to figure out a
way to document the lives andthe legacies of jazz legends
(07:37):
that we're losing over time here.
I'm curious to know how thatthought maybe has developed for
you, or if you want to sharewith people your thoughts about
it to begin with, because Ithink that that actually is
really important.
Speaker 3 (07:49):
Well, during the pandemic we lost a lot of
incredible artists oldermusicians, older jazz musicians
that unfortunately, during thattime we didn't have many
opportunities to celebrate theirlives after their lives were
lost, and because there was justrules then and we were locked
down and we just couldn't.
So it becomes someone's duty, Ithink, to begin to think
(08:12):
critically about the field.
And what are we seeing outthere?
It's like man.
I used to spend hours on thephone with some of them and they
would tell me all of thesestories about growing up in
Philly and with all of theseother incredible jazz musicians
and we used to do jam sessionsover McCoy Tiner's house or his
mom had a hair salon and we usedto do jam sessions on the
(08:34):
second floor of the salon andall these different things,
these incredible stories andthey're not just like local jazz
lore or history or Philadelphiaheritage is like I'm just
American heritage.
It's such a rich heritage andthese aren't the people who have
gone on to be the EllaFitzgeralds or the Dizzy
Gillespie.
(08:54):
Those are a handful of jazzmusicians in America.
Jazz in America has beenpropelled forward by all of
these local heroes that inspirethe next generation of that crop
that's tight crop of youngerartists who break through to a
national level.
And these are the people whohold all of the history, all of
(09:15):
the knowledge of the music, andit's a shame.
You know, when those peoplepass away, you lose all of it
because they haven't beenproperly documented.
And one of my ambitions is tofind a way to document them not
just their stories but theirlikeness like photographs.
How can you do this in a waythat makes sense and how can
(09:36):
this be something that isfundable?
And you know it's funny.
I've had a conversation withWynton Marsalis about this.
When I was applying for aposition at Jazz at Lincoln
Center.
I made it all the way throughthe ranks of interviews until I
got to him and he eventuallytold me that I wasn't going to
get the job.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
It was just like no, I get it.
I was like that's the deep cut.
Speaker 3 (10:02):
But we actually ended up talking on the phone for a
long time about this topic andwe shared some thoughts back and
forth and I think I'm at thepoint now where I want to use
this position that I'm in atMid-Atmospheric Arts to find a
way possibly to fund initiatives, maybe start reasonably and
then grow beyond that, you know,create a new program that maybe
(10:23):
we can use our resources tofind funding for and hopefully
kick off more of this sort ofthing where we're capturing
these stories, I mean thesepeople who are the architects of
this music or who haveperformed with the architects of
this music or grew up with thearchitects of this music are in
their mid to late 80s now.
And I definitely feel like Ihave to do it, like this urgency
(10:46):
.
But I also recognize that youknow you could just do it, and
once you're already in the flowof doing it, then you can find
the other programs and thefunding and the things, whatever
you need to do.
But I also recognize that youalso don't have many bites at
the apple, so to speak, andoftentimes when you're working
with these artists, you've gotone chance to kind of get in
(11:06):
there and do it and record aconversation.
So it's good to go and prepareand not just sort of rush in
with you know like all right, Idon't know what's going to
happen, how can you go and focus?
And knowing that I'm going touse this in several different
ways, yeah.
The most difficult part of it isfinding a way to make it a
(11:26):
living sort of document thatisn't just for research or
something or that's going to sitin an archive somewhere and
that's it.
There's a ton of those.
There were differentinitiatives in the past where
the jazz greats were documentedand interviewed and all of that,
but they're just sitting inarchives.
So what can you do?
What can anyone do if they'reinterested in this, to make this
(11:48):
thing digestible and useful tothe field?
Speaker 1 (11:51):
And to put fresh air into it so that it feels like
something that I don't know.
The idea that something getsarchived right away already
seems like it's something thatbelongs in the past.
But what I find most amazingabout the differences between
our disciplines is that and Imean there are, I think, many,
many reasons for this that wedon't really have time to go
into but in the classical musicworld everyone's documented,
(12:15):
everyone's always being liftedup as the.
This is the great pedagogue ofour time, this is the great
soloist, and there's ampleinformation everywhere about
people.
But also in the world of jazz,it's primarily this living art
that happens in a club, in a jamsession, that is never
replicated again, forever.
Like Joshua Bell will go outand play his Mendelssohn and it
(12:37):
sure will evolve over time as hegets older and understands more
about the music, whatever, buthe's going to play the same
piece over and over and over andover again for the rest of his
life.
Because these musicians, ifthey never get a recording
contract and they never getproper recognition for what
they're doing, it's just thisart that goes away.
It's like such a temporarything and that is a challenge to
(12:57):
document, I think, in a waythat is accessible.
Speaker 3 (13:01):
Accessible like.
The accessibility aspect of itall is what really is important.
Why would someone who knowsnothing about jazz interact with
this thing?
And that's really where thehard work has to come in.
How can you make thisaccessible?
So, as my tenure at MidaglanticArts grows, I hope to be able
(13:22):
to kick off something there, butI have gone out to record
interviews and body equipmentjust so that I can do it, and
start touring with differentsort of functional ways of
storytelling.
I think, ultimately, the wayyou're going to get an audience
is through storytelling andfinding creative ways you know
what's great for that PodcastPodcasting.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
I'm envisioning a series about jazz legends with,
like this, american lifestyleproduction, where you work in
the conversations, you play someof their music, you talk to
people in their lives, yeah, sothat's what I would like to do,
yeah.
Speaker 3 (14:04):
More or less hopefully short episodes as a
place to start.
When I began this process, mygoal was to film and either film
interviews.
but then I began looking aroundat the different sort of ways
that people are filming and it'slike, man, you could be more
narrative, you could take like amore narrative focused approach
to this.
So then I like came across thisone great video about a local
(14:28):
drummer here in New York olderdrummer, and it was so artfully
done.
And I reached out.
I just cold called or coldemailed via director it was for
the New Yorker and I found whothe director was, and I sent an
email to him, you know, justasking a bunch of questions, and
I was like, man, can you get onthe phone?
And to my surprise he said yes,and we got on the phone and we
(14:48):
just began talking about the artof storytelling and the
different ways and the way, muchlike what you just said, you
know.
He was like I could see thisbeing a podcast.
Why go through the trouble ofcapturing this on video?
The learning curve forpodcasting is going to be much
lower for you than video work,you know.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
Yes, yes, hey, if we can do it.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
Yeah, that's true.
If we can figure this, out, butanybody can.
Speaker 3 (15:12):
But in that regard, there are a lot of great
examples of podcasts and I'mjust like man.
Why would I want to enter thatspace that is occupied by great
podcasts that have beenestablished?
You know, like this podcast.
But for me to come from scratchand to say, okay, well, I'm
just going to show up with thisthing.
Speaker 1 (15:32):
But it's just a platform, it's just like
anything else.
To me, that's the same asasking, like, why release an
album?
All these other musiciansrelease albums all the time.
Like you have something uniqueto say and can be found.
And I also think it has been ajumping off point for something
that then gets expanded basedaround the themes of that
podcast, right?
So like the concept of startingthere and having the narrative
(15:56):
and capturing people's attentionin their cars or on the bus
ride or whatever, and thengrowing to that point where you
can then turn it into a filmstyle thing where you get to get
to see their faces andeverything like that's my
personal opinion about that,because otherwise we probably
would not have started a podcasteither.
Speaker 3 (16:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:13):
Because by the time you start, you know, even just
every once in a while I'll talkto somebody out in the world who
doesn't know that I do this.
Just the other week I wastalking to somebody and they
were like, oh, you know, back inthe day, like before the
pandemic I think, I waslistening to a podcast for
freelancers and I was like, yeah, there's more than one, it's
okay.
I mean, even within the limitedscope of podcasts for freelance
(16:35):
musicians we all speakdifferently.
We all have differentperspectives.
That we're sharing out there, soyeah, it's just adding another
human element to the world ofpodcasts.
Right, yeah For sure.
Now we've given you your peptalk, now you can go do the
thing.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
I'm sure you have a whole lot of time.
Speaker 1 (16:54):
Yeah, actually also.
You have a friend who can youknow I can help you out yeah.
I'm just saying.
Speaker 3 (17:00):
Listen, it's funny that you were talking about that
sort of like Kismet thing thathappens and like the whole Red
Barat thing was all 100% afunction of Kismet and like the
universe conspiring.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
How did that come about?
I have to hear the story.
Speaker 3 (17:17):
So, okay, I guess I'll just leave you with this.
I left Temple and part of myplan when I decided to refocus
on music at Temple was to justkeep going up to New York while
I was at school and maybe it'llpay off by the time I graduate.
So I just kept going up to NewYork at the Vanguard and every
(17:39):
time I went I would stay, Iwould hang, I would talk to
everyone to the point where theyall just knew my name.
And right after I graduatedfrom Temple I got a call for my
first gig in New York.
It was a week-long recording atthe Blue Note.
It was a live recording forCharles Taliver and it became
the album Emperor March.
(17:59):
So that was my very first gigin New York, this week-long
stint, and I'm just like, wow, Ineed to move to New York.
So I moved to New York.
I didn't have any money.
I somehow threw, you know likeI found some Craigslist ads for
sublets or whatever and Ifigured it out and I would kind
of run out of money, then goback to Philly or whatever.
(18:21):
And the last time I did that Ijust got off the Chinatown bus
back to Philadelphia from NewYork and I'm walking past the
Lowe's Hotel and I see in thewindow there was a piano player
named Anthony Wanzi who had justfinished playing a show with
Joanna Pascal.
So I walk in and I was like,hey man, how are you all?
(18:42):
And he asked me what I was upto and I was like I just got
back from New York, I'm lookingfor another apartment now,
otherwise I'm going to have tostay in Philly.
And he was like you know, afriend of mine was just telling
me that she's looking for aroommate.
Maybe I can connect you withher, it'll be affordable.
And she's a friend.
And I was like, cool, connectus.
And he did.
(19:02):
And I ended up moving into thatapartment and it was in
Brooklyn and Park Slope and youknow, it's just like I got that
little extra lifeline to keep mein New York a little bit longer
.
Eventually I kind of burned outbecause I'm going out every
single night Like I'm playingthree, four jam sessions a night
.
I'm just going, you know, andI'm traveling everywhere trying
(19:24):
to find jam sessions, trying tofind places to sit in, just
doing it, and I finally get tothe point where I'm like, okay,
at the end of this week I'mleaving New York and I'm going
to go move back to Philly andfigure things out, you
surrendered.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
You're like, I surrendered.
Speaker 3 (19:37):
Yeah, I just like, just like, I think I'm ready to
go back, you know.
So my last gig in New York wasat this place called the
Brooklyn Lyceum, which happenedto be around the corner from
where I was living.
I leave my house to go tours tothe show and as I'm leaving my
house and walking down thestreet, I pass this guy on his
(19:58):
cell phone and he's like walkingtowards me and you know, I see
him kind of rushing off thephone and he looks like he's
about to approach me and I'mlike, oh, my God like New York.
you know, some New York shit isabout to happen.
And this guy's like yo man, youplay trombone.
And I'm like, yeah, yeah, Iplay trombone.
(20:19):
He was like okay, cool, who doyou play with?
And you know, we startedtalking.
It's like a typicalconversation you might have,
like people ask you about what'sin your case, all the time.
So the guy's like yeah, well,you know, I have a band and
maybe I can get you to come inand play with us one day.
And I'm like again, you hearthat a million times.
Whatever, we exchangedinformation and we just like go
(20:41):
our separate ways.
I go to my gig and I end upleaving New York.
Like a year later I get thisFacebook message and it's that
guy and he's like yo man, youremember me?
We ran into each other on thestreet.
Listen, I have a couple ofdates that I could use a
trombone player for.
If you want to do them, let meknow.
And if it works out, you know Ihave a couple more.
(21:02):
And I go to Brooklyn to playthese shows and all of a sudden
I'm in this cat's band.
You know it was Red Barat, butthe wild thing about it is that
that day that I was walking downthe street with my trombone, he
was on the phone with histrombone player who was telling
him that he just got a tour andhe's not going to be able to
(21:24):
make any more dates with theband.
So he's getting this cook andup the street, walking directly
towards him, is a tromboneplayer.
Speaker 2 (21:35):
I didn't know the story either.
This is so good.
Speaker 3 (21:38):
It's a trombone player and that's why, when he
sees me coming, he like hangs upthe phone and he's like.
He's like yo, you play trombone.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
He was lucky too.
Speaker 3 (21:50):
Yeah, and that began like I traveled the world with
those guys, like I traveled theworld with them, and it's just
what if I left my apartment likethree minutes later?
I would have missed them, youknow, or or I would have walked
on the other side of the streetor like any other.
(22:10):
Any of these things is just oneof these like very special,
magical New York things that canhappen.
Speaker 2 (22:16):
Totally Secret of city.
Speaker 3 (22:17):
And yeah, yeah, yeah.
So I mean like I meaneverything just hinge on that
one weird moment and interaction, and I'm all the better for it.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
Yeah, I mean it's amazing to me, I think I
honestly I just think like lifeflows like that.
Yeah, yeah, for sure I think ithappens so much more than we
even realize on a daily basis.
We don't notice it most of thetime, but every once in a while
you have these, these momentswhere you're like okay, I mean
that's unexplainable.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
That's unexplainable, that's crazy.
Speaker 1 (22:49):
That's a crazy thing.
Amazing.
That's such a great story.
Speaker 3 (22:52):
I'm glad we stayed on that and on that, ladies and
gentlemen, this has been such agreat conversation.
Speaker 1 (22:58):
This has been amazing , my friend.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
Thank you so much for joining us.
I'm so glad.
It's great to meet you, yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:07):
Thank you so much for listening today.
If you loved this episode,consider writing us a five star
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listen.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
Thanks also to our season sponsor, Potter Violence.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
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Speaker 2 (23:26):
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Speaker 1 (23:33):
Our theme music was written and produced by JP
Wogerman and is performed byStefan myself.
Speaker 2 (23:39):
Our episodes are produced by Liz O'Hara and
edited by Emily McMahon.
Speaker 1 (23:43):
Thanks again for listening.
Let's talk soon.
Hey everybody, Welcome back to part two of our
episode with Trombonist ErnestStewart.
Just wanted to let you know ifyou are tuning in for the first
time and you may have missed it,this is the second half of a
conversation that we had withErnest.
You can find the first half ofthe conversation on the feed
just below or just prior.
(00:20):
I don't know how it's listed onyour particular listening
device, but you get the idea.
So we hope you enjoy the secondhalf of this conversation with
Ernest Stewart.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Welcome to the Musician-centric podcast.
We are two freelance violistsliving and laughing our way
through conversations thatexplore what it means to be a
professional musician in today'sworld.
I'm Steph.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
And I'm Liz, and we're so glad you've joined us.
Speaker 3 (00:49):
Let's dive in Honestly, I think you have to
trick yourself sometimes intotaking in new information, Even
if it's listening to music thatyou don't like.
That's new.
I see people kind of get intotheir bag and I have friends
that I went to high school withthat drive around listening to
the music that was popular whenthey were in high school and
(01:12):
it's like very comforting.
You know all the words to thesong and it's amazing.
You know the music that Ilisten to.
It's amazing that there is nowa station dedicated to music
from the early 2000s.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
That's classic rock now.
Yeah, yeah, it's like oldiesnow.
It's like oldies now.
Classical, yeah, the oldies.
Speaker 3 (01:33):
But I think that comfort is what kind of scares
the hell out of me, because I'mlike it's so comfortable in a
lower UN and you have to fightthat urge sometimes and just
sort of sit in a new areasomewhere, or else you start to
lose your neuroplasticity andyou just get you know, I think
it's important to just keeplearning and keep putting
(01:53):
yourself in these sort ofuncomfortable situations and
grow in those situations, yeah,or the wrong ones, and listen,
you can learn a lot from thewrong situations.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
What I can say you know what that's true.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
In any fast of the life, I can honestly say,
putting yourself in the wrongsituation often teaches some big
lessons.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
Well, there's so much , like you said, ernest, of like
there's so much comfort seekingin music, and it's fine.
I have days like that, too,where all I want to listen to is
stuff that I already know.
If you're an artist, though, Ithink one of your biggest
obligation duties in order tokeep growing is to put yourself
and listen to things that arenot comfortable for you, and if
(02:34):
they're not comfortable, you'llbe like OK, why is this not
comfortable?
And really likeself-examination and letting
yourself, just like in regularlife, processing feelings.
Let yourself process that andsit in the discomfort of it and
figure out why is this?
Ok, then you might learnsomething new about what you
like, what you don't like, whereyour growth areas are.
(02:54):
The music listening, I think,can be like that too.
Speaker 3 (02:57):
And I don't expect people to listen to anything I'm
saying right now about this,but the reality is that I feel
like my tastes, like I can useSpotify as a crutch or a tool.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
And I choose to use it as a tool to broaden.
That's cool.
Speaker 3 (03:12):
I mean, if you have all the music at your fingertips
, like who knows what's outthere that you can connect with,
that has nothing to do with thestuff you grew up listening to.
And it could be completely.
It could be early blues orearly country.
That's like folk music that youlike an album, that you stumble
across or that you hear asnippet of it somewhere and you
(03:33):
shit, shazam it and download thealbum and you're just like this
is incredible.
I love doing stuff like that,like I do that all the time and,
as a result, I get this reallywide sort of recommendations
from Spotify, where they're notjust sending me this one thing,
they're sending me stuff fromall over the place.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Okay, yeah, I can do this myself, is what you're
saying.
Speaker 3 (03:54):
Well, I mean, it's like if you don't think about it
, then you kind of just fallinto that thing or listening to
music just for, like your nextgig and not really listening to
other things.
I'm really bad at going out tosee concerts.
You know I'm terrible at thatand I need to spend way more
time going out to see concerts.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
Did you guys have a recital requirement?
Speaker 3 (04:17):
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
The pink slips.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
Remember the pink slips?
Yes, yeah.
You had to get it stamped orpunched or whatever.
Speaker 3 (04:24):
Just go to all my friends, or something.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
Yeah, but you don't realize what.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
How meaningful that is yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
How meaningful it is and how you wished like at this
stage in my life, I had arecital requirement because, you
know, you're required, once amonth at least, to go to a
concert that you're notperforming in, just to broaden
your horizons, and it could beanything.
Yeah, like it could be, no,100% you could set this for
yourself I'll make cards, cardsand we'll distribute them.
(04:53):
Recital requirement yeah, it'srecital requirement.
Speaker 3 (04:56):
I love challenges like that for yourself, Like
forcing yourself to do certainthings, to like grow in that way
.
Oh, it's amazing when you canforce yourself into that stuff.
It's great.
I have to remember that youknow, because I spent so much
time in these casual listeningenvironments like going to jazz
clubs Jam sessions.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
Like every single night.
Speaker 3 (05:14):
Yeah, you know you forget that.
Oh right, if there's shows thathappen at ticketed places and
you know you have to sometimespay a ticket to go in to see a
show and there's a ton ofartists that you love listening
to.
It's crazy to me that I've neverbeen to a James Blake concert.
You know, and I love listeningto James Blake, but it's wild
(05:34):
that I've, like over the yearssince I first discovered him,
like over 10 years ago I haven'tgone to a single James Blake
concert.
So I'm definitely going to getto a point where I'm trying to
rectify these terrible errors ofjudgment that I've displayed.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
Growth areas.
Speaker 3 (05:52):
Growth areas.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
Growth areas that's right, that's the reframe.
That's the reframe.
Yeah, located in a historicmansion in Tacoma Park, maryland
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You might get the impressionthat the team at Potter Violins
are as formal as thebreathtaking building that they
work in, but when you go insideinstead, you'll find the most
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relatable, skilled and friendlystaff.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
Yes, the people at Potter's are what really make it
a special place.
I love visiting because I knowthat whoever I work with is not
going to make me feel like I'mcrazy or just being picky.
They're kind of like yourfavorite bartender.
They're great listeners whogive you what you need without
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Speaker 1 (06:31):
Yes, their technicians are not only super
talented, creative andresourceful, they take the time
to collaborate with you so thatthe process of getting your
instrument at its best reallyfeels like a partnership.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
So if you're in the area, definitely stop by and
introduce yourself to Chris, RobKimberly, Derek, Jim, Melissa
and the whole team, or visitPotterViolinscom to find what
you need online.
Speaker 1 (06:55):
It's so fitting, then , that their shop is in this
beautiful old house, because thestaff at Potter's really makes
it feel like home.
So I want to ask you this is alittle bit of a pivot to the
conversation related to Jess butwhen you came to visit, it was
like almost two years ago nowand we were talking about this
little seed of an idea of aproject you had that.
(07:16):
I mean, I'm curious to know ifyou've developed that project
idea at all, but also, moreimportantly, the theme behind
the project idea, which was thatyou wanted to take all this
media you'd been learningphotography, go into video and
your knowledge of music and juststart trying to figure out a
way to document the lives andthe legacies of jazz legends
(07:37):
that we're losing over time here.
I'm curious to know how thatthought maybe has developed for
you, or if you want to sharewith people your thoughts about
it to begin with, because Ithink that that actually is
really important.
Speaker 3 (07:49):
Well, during the pandemic we lost a lot of
incredible artists oldermusicians, older jazz musicians
that unfortunately, during thattime we didn't have many
opportunities to celebrate theirlives after their lives were
lost, and because there was justrules then and we were locked
down and we just couldn't.
So it becomes someone's duty, Ithink, to begin to think
(08:12):
critically about the field.
And what are we seeing outthere?
It's like man.
I used to spend hours on thephone with some of them and they
would tell me all of thesestories about growing up in
Philly and with all of theseother incredible jazz musicians
and we used to do jam sessionsover McCoy Tiner's house or his
mom had a hair salon and we usedto do jam sessions on the
(08:34):
second floor of the salon andall these different things,
these incredible stories andthey're not just like local jazz
lore or history or Philadelphiaheritage is like I'm just
American heritage.
It's such a rich heritage andthese aren't the people who have
gone on to be the EllaFitzgeralds or the Dizzy
Gillespie.
(08:54):
Those are a handful of jazzmusicians in America.
Jazz in America has beenpropelled forward by all of
these local heroes that inspirethe next generation of that crop
that's tight crop of youngerartists who break through to a
national level.
And these are the people whohold all of the history, all of
(09:15):
the knowledge of the music, andit's a shame.
You know, when those peoplepass away, you lose all of it
because they haven't beenproperly documented.
And one of my ambitions is tofind a way to document them not
just their stories but theirlikeness like photographs.
How can you do this in a waythat makes sense and how can
(09:36):
this be something that isfundable?
And you know it's funny.
I've had a conversation withWynton Marsalis about this.
When I was applying for aposition at Jazz at Lincoln
Center.
I made it all the way throughthe ranks of interviews until I
got to him and he eventuallytold me that I wasn't going to
get the job.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
It was just like no, I get it.
I was like that's the deep cut.
Speaker 3 (10:02):
But we actually ended up talking on the phone for a
long time about this topic andwe shared some thoughts back and
forth and I think I'm at thepoint now where I want to use
this position that I'm in atMid-Atmospheric Arts to find a
way possibly to fund initiatives, maybe start reasonably and
then grow beyond that, you know,create a new program that maybe
(10:23):
we can use our resources tofind funding for and hopefully
kick off more of this sort ofthing where we're capturing
these stories, I mean thesepeople who are the architects of
this music or who haveperformed with the architects of
this music or grew up with thearchitects of this music are in
their mid to late 80s now.
And I definitely feel like Ihave to do it, like this urgency
(10:46):
.
But I also recognize that youknow you could just do it, and
once you're already in the flowof doing it, then you can find
the other programs and thefunding and the things, whatever
you need to do.
But I also recognize that youalso don't have many bites at
the apple, so to speak, andoftentimes when you're working
with these artists, you've gotone chance to kind of get in
(11:06):
there and do it and record aconversation.
So it's good to go and prepareand not just sort of rush in
with you know like all right, Idon't know what's going to
happen, how can you go and focus?
And knowing that I'm going touse this in several different
ways, yeah.
The most difficult part of it isfinding a way to make it a
(11:26):
living sort of document thatisn't just for research or
something or that's going to sitin an archive somewhere and
that's it.
There's a ton of those.
There were differentinitiatives in the past where
the jazz greats were documentedand interviewed and all of that,
but they're just sitting inarchives.
So what can you do?
What can anyone do if they'reinterested in this, to make this
(11:48):
thing digestible and useful tothe field?
Speaker 1 (11:51):
And to put fresh air into it so that it feels like
something that I don't know.
The idea that something getsarchived right away already
seems like it's something thatbelongs in the past.
But what I find most amazingabout the differences between
our disciplines is that and Imean there are, I think, many,
many reasons for this that wedon't really have time to go
into but in the classical musicworld everyone's documented,
(12:15):
everyone's always being liftedup as the.
This is the great pedagogue ofour time, this is the great
soloist, and there's ampleinformation everywhere about
people.
But also in the world of jazz,it's primarily this living art
that happens in a club, in a jamsession, that is never
replicated again, forever.
Like Joshua Bell will go outand play his Mendelssohn and it
(12:37):
sure will evolve over time as hegets older and understands more
about the music, whatever, buthe's going to play the same
piece over and over and over andover again for the rest of his
life.
Because these musicians, ifthey never get a recording
contract and they never getproper recognition for what
they're doing, it's just thisart that goes away.
It's like such a temporarything and that is a challenge to
(12:57):
document, I think, in a waythat is accessible.
Speaker 3 (13:01):
Accessible like.
The accessibility aspect of itall is what really is important.
Why would someone who knowsnothing about jazz interact with
this thing?
And that's really where thehard work has to come in.
How can you make thisaccessible?
So, as my tenure at MidaglanticArts grows, I hope to be able
(13:22):
to kick off something there, butI have gone out to record
interviews and body equipmentjust so that I can do it, and
start touring with differentsort of functional ways of
storytelling.
I think, ultimately, the wayyou're going to get an audience
is through storytelling andfinding creative ways you know
what's great for that PodcastPodcasting.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
I'm envisioning a series about jazz legends with,
like this, american lifestyleproduction, where you work in
the conversations, you play someof their music, you talk to
people in their lives, yeah, sothat's what I would like to do,
yeah.
Speaker 3 (14:04):
More or less hopefully short episodes as a
place to start.
When I began this process, mygoal was to film and either film
interviews.
but then I began looking aroundat the different sort of ways
that people are filming and it'slike, man, you could be more
narrative, you could take like amore narrative focused approach
to this.
So then I like came across thisone great video about a local
(14:28):
drummer here in New York olderdrummer, and it was so artfully
done.
And I reached out.
I just cold called or coldemailed via director it was for
the New Yorker and I found whothe director was, and I sent an
email to him, you know, justasking a bunch of questions, and
I was like, man, can you get onthe phone?
And to my surprise he said yes,and we got on the phone and we
(14:48):
just began talking about the artof storytelling and the
different ways and the way, muchlike what you just said, you
know.
He was like I could see thisbeing a podcast.
Why go through the trouble ofcapturing this on video?
The learning curve forpodcasting is going to be much
lower for you than video work,you know.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
Yes, yes, hey, if we can do it.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
Yeah, that's true.
If we can figure this, out, butanybody can.
Speaker 3 (15:12):
But in that regard, there are a lot of great
examples of podcasts and I'mjust like man.
Why would I want to enter thatspace that is occupied by great
podcasts that have beenestablished?
You know, like this podcast.
But for me to come from scratchand to say, okay, well, I'm
just going to show up with thisthing.
Speaker 1 (15:32):
But it's just a platform, it's just like
anything else.
To me, that's the same asasking, like, why release an
album?
All these other musiciansrelease albums all the time.
Like you have something uniqueto say and can be found.
And I also think it has been ajumping off point for something
that then gets expanded basedaround the themes of that
podcast, right?
So like the concept of startingthere and having the narrative
(15:56):
and capturing people's attentionin their cars or on the bus
ride or whatever, and thengrowing to that point where you
can then turn it into a filmstyle thing where you get to get
to see their faces andeverything like that's my
personal opinion about that,because otherwise we probably
would not have started a podcasteither.
Speaker 3 (16:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:13):
Because by the time you start, you know, even just
every once in a while I'll talkto somebody out in the world who
doesn't know that I do this.
Just the other week I wastalking to somebody and they
were like, oh, you know, back inthe day, like before the
pandemic I think, I waslistening to a podcast for
freelancers and I was like, yeah, there's more than one, it's
okay.
I mean, even within the limitedscope of podcasts for freelance
(16:35):
musicians we all speakdifferently.
We all have differentperspectives.
That we're sharing out there, soyeah, it's just adding another
human element to the world ofpodcasts.
Right, yeah For sure.
Now we've given you your peptalk, now you can go do the
thing.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
I'm sure you have a whole lot of time.
Speaker 1 (16:54):
Yeah, actually also.
You have a friend who can youknow I can help you out yeah.
I'm just saying.
Speaker 3 (17:00):
Listen, it's funny that you were talking about that
sort of like Kismet thing thathappens and like the whole Red
Barat thing was all 100% afunction of Kismet and like the
universe conspiring.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
How did that come about?
I have to hear the story.
Speaker 3 (17:17):
So, okay, I guess I'll just leave you with this.
I left Temple and part of myplan when I decided to refocus
on music at Temple was to justkeep going up to New York while
I was at school and maybe it'llpay off by the time I graduate.
So I just kept going up to NewYork at the Vanguard and every
(17:39):
time I went I would stay, Iwould hang, I would talk to
everyone to the point where theyall just knew my name.
And right after I graduatedfrom Temple I got a call for my
first gig in New York.
It was a week-long recording atthe Blue Note.
It was a live recording forCharles Taliver and it became
the album Emperor March.
(17:59):
So that was my very first gigin New York, this week-long
stint, and I'm just like, wow, Ineed to move to New York.
So I moved to New York.
I didn't have any money.
I somehow threw, you know likeI found some Craigslist ads for
sublets or whatever and Ifigured it out and I would kind
of run out of money, then goback to Philly or whatever.
(18:21):
And the last time I did that Ijust got off the Chinatown bus
back to Philadelphia from NewYork and I'm walking past the
Lowe's Hotel and I see in thewindow there was a piano player
named Anthony Wanzi who had justfinished playing a show with
Joanna Pascal.
So I walk in and I was like,hey man, how are you all?
(18:42):
And he asked me what I was upto and I was like I just got
back from New York, I'm lookingfor another apartment now,
otherwise I'm going to have tostay in Philly.
And he was like you know, afriend of mine was just telling
me that she's looking for aroommate.
Maybe I can connect you withher, it'll be affordable.
And she's a friend.
And I was like, cool, connectus.
And he did.
(19:02):
And I ended up moving into thatapartment and it was in
Brooklyn and Park Slope and youknow, it's just like I got that
little extra lifeline to keep mein New York a little bit longer
.
Eventually I kind of burned outbecause I'm going out every
single night Like I'm playingthree, four jam sessions a night
.
I'm just going, you know, andI'm traveling everywhere trying
(19:24):
to find jam sessions, trying tofind places to sit in, just
doing it, and I finally get tothe point where I'm like, okay,
at the end of this week I'mleaving New York and I'm going
to go move back to Philly andfigure things out, you
surrendered.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
You're like, I surrendered.
Speaker 3 (19:37):
Yeah, I just like, just like, I think I'm ready to
go back, you know.
So my last gig in New York wasat this place called the
Brooklyn Lyceum, which happenedto be around the corner from
where I was living.
I leave my house to go tours tothe show and as I'm leaving my
house and walking down thestreet, I pass this guy on his
(19:58):
cell phone and he's like walkingtowards me and you know, I see
him kind of rushing off thephone and he looks like he's
about to approach me and I'mlike, oh, my God like New York.
you know, some New York shit isabout to happen.
And this guy's like yo man, youplay trombone.
And I'm like, yeah, yeah, Iplay trombone.
(20:19):
He was like okay, cool, who doyou play with?
And you know, we startedtalking.
It's like a typicalconversation you might have,
like people ask you about what'sin your case, all the time.
So the guy's like yeah, well,you know, I have a band and
maybe I can get you to come inand play with us one day.
And I'm like again, you hearthat a million times.
Whatever, we exchangedinformation and we just like go
(20:41):
our separate ways.
I go to my gig and I end upleaving New York.
Like a year later I get thisFacebook message and it's that
guy and he's like yo man, youremember me?
We ran into each other on thestreet.
Listen, I have a couple ofdates that I could use a
trombone player for.
If you want to do them, let meknow.
And if it works out, you know Ihave a couple more.
(21:02):
And I go to Brooklyn to playthese shows and all of a sudden
I'm in this cat's band.
You know it was Red Barat, butthe wild thing about it is that
that day that I was walking downthe street with my trombone, he
was on the phone with histrombone player who was telling
him that he just got a tour andhe's not going to be able to
(21:24):
make any more dates with theband.
So he's getting this cook andup the street, walking directly
towards him, is a tromboneplayer.
Speaker 2 (21:35):
I didn't know the story either.
This is so good.
Speaker 3 (21:38):
It's a trombone player and that's why, when he
sees me coming, he like hangs upthe phone and he's like.
He's like yo, you play trombone.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
He was lucky too.
Speaker 3 (21:50):
Yeah, and that began like I traveled the world with
those guys, like I traveled theworld with them, and it's just
what if I left my apartment likethree minutes later?
I would have missed them, youknow, or or I would have walked
on the other side of the streetor like any other.
(22:10):
Any of these things is just oneof these like very special,
magical New York things that canhappen.
Speaker 2 (22:16):
Totally Secret of city.
Speaker 3 (22:17):
And yeah, yeah, yeah.
So I mean like I meaneverything just hinge on that
one weird moment and interaction, and I'm all the better for it.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
Yeah, I mean it's amazing to me, I think I
honestly I just think like lifeflows like that.
Yeah, yeah, for sure I think ithappens so much more than we
even realize on a daily basis.
We don't notice it most of thetime, but every once in a while
you have these, these momentswhere you're like okay, I mean
that's unexplainable.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
That's unexplainable, that's crazy.
Speaker 1 (22:49):
That's a crazy thing.
Amazing.
That's such a great story.
Speaker 3 (22:52):
I'm glad we stayed on that and on that, ladies and
gentlemen, this has been such agreat conversation.
Speaker 1 (22:58):
This has been amazing , my friend.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
Thank you so much for joining us.
I'm so glad.
It's great to meet you, yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:07):
Thank you so much for listening today.
If you loved this episode,consider writing us a five star
review on Apple podcasts, amazonmusic, spotify or wherever you
listen.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
Thanks also to our season sponsor, Potter Violence.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
If you'd like to support the podcast and get
access to bonus content,consider joining our Patreon
community.
Speaker 2 (23:26):
You can buy all your Musician-centric merch,
including shirts, water bottles,koozies and a variety of other
fun items.
Speaker 1 (23:33):
Our theme music was written and produced by JP
Wogerman and is performed byStefan myself.
Speaker 2 (23:39):
Our episodes are produced by Liz O'Hara and
edited by Emily McMahon.
Speaker 1 (23:43):
Thanks again for listening.
Let's talk soon.
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