April 11, 2024 • 44 mins
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Discover the keys to turning artistic flair into financial success as we sit down with the extraordinary Miriam Schulman, the mind behind "Artpreneur." Her book lights the way for artists to thrive in the marketplace, and we're diving deep into her treasure trove of strategies. From setting the right prices to self-promotion that doesn't feel like selling out, Miriam's insights offer a compass for creatives looking to chart their own course with confidence. Whether you paint, perform, or play, the wisdom shared in this episode promises to enrich your path to prosperity.
We tackle the persistent myth that art is an unstable foundation for a career, bringing forward real-life sagas of artists who’ve molded their passions into a sustainable income. All-in-all, we're here to affirm that your artistry warrants as much respect and reward as any other profession.
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Mentioned in this episode:
Miriam’s book: Artpreneur: ArtpreneurBOOK.com
Get the first chapter for FREE here: schulmanart.com/BELIEVE
The Inspriation Place Podcast: schulmanart.com/podcast
Miriam’s Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/schulmanart/
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Episode edited by: Emily MacMahon and Liz O’Hara
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Liz (00:00):
For our listeners who've been with us for a long time.
For those of you listening forthe first time, we're going to
try introing our conversationthat is coming up within the
next 10 minutes or so on theepisode.
So we're really excited todayto bring you an episode where we
had a guest named MiriamShulman, who is absolutely
incredible.
I'm going to let Stephanie talkabout her because she found her
(00:21):
online and was fangirling alittle bit and, to be honest, I
didn't know Miriam's work allthat well until we started the
conversation, but once we got tothe end I was fangirling too.
She was absolutely amazing.
It was such a good conversationand we're really excited for
you to be able to hear it in alittle bit, yeah.
Steph (00:37):
So Miriam, she is a visual artist and she also has a
podcast called InspirationPlace.
But today we talked with hermostly about her book, which is
called Artpreneur, and it's allabout helping artists to make
what they do as a creativeendeavor into a career.
So how to sell yourself, how tosell art, how to build
(00:59):
relationships that will profitdown the line.
And I was reading about her andI read her book and I was just
thinking these are read her bookand I was just thinking these
are skills that all of usartists can use.
Whether you're in visual art,whether you're a performing
artist, whether you're amusician, you can use these
skills and we're not taught them.
So I got so much inspirationjust from reading her book and I
(01:19):
highly recommend it.
But we talk about pricing, wetalk about knowing your worth as
an artist and how to sellyourself out there on the
marketplace.
We talk about social media, wetalk about promotion in this
episode.
So I think everybody's gonnareally find something that that
speaks to them, that they needin that moment.
Liz (01:38):
Yeah, it was amazing how much crossover was in that
conversation and it is soidentifiable.
You know, no matter whatdiscipline of a creative
endeavor you're coming from,there's just so much you can
relate in terms of taking thatkind of path in life.
And, yeah, it was just so.
It was truly so inspiring andyou know, she got a little woo
woo with us, which I very muchappreciate.
Steph (01:59):
Yes, I felt like this was like the perfect bridge from
the Artist's Way.
If you read the Artist's Wayand you did all that and you
know your morning pages andconnecting with your inner child
, blah, blah, blah.
But okay, now come into thereal world and this is what you
need to do, now that you knowyour worth as an artist how to
show your worth in themarketplace.
Yeah, absolutely Welcome to theMusician Centric Podcast.
(02:22):
We are two freelance violistsliving and laughing our way
through conversations thatexplore what it means to be a
professional musician in today'sworld.
I'm Steph.
Liz (02:31):
And I'm Liz and we're so glad you've joined us.
Let's dive in.
I don't know if it's.
Is that like a super sensitivemusician thing?
Like would the average personnotice Well, what did you hear?
Okay, wait, let's do it again.
All right, for even morecontext.
Everybody you know how well youmight not know this unless you
(02:52):
have these kinds of headphonesbut one says R and one says L,
but like they look exactly thesame.
So you're like rightTheoretically if you just switch
them, does it matter?
And then my microphone cordwouldn't be across my body, it
would just be Okay.
So I've been playing aroundwith this and Stephanie said,
well, how is it different?
And I was like wait, I don'tknow.
So okay, Now I'm doing it theright way, which is the
(03:13):
headphones on the right, righton right, yeah L on left.
I'm following the directions.
Steph (03:26):
I don't like even maybe Okay.
Liz (03:27):
Yeah, even yeah, like across the my head, okay, okay.
Steph (03:28):
Okay, so now I'm going to switch them.
Okay, all right Now.
Okay, so, just for continuitymiggity, mic check, miggity,
miggity, mic check, I mean trulyit's different.
Liz (03:35):
Okay, do it again.
I just took the right ear off,guys, which is actually the left
ear.
Steph (03:39):
This is like the mirroring conversation we had
about the camera Yeahity miccheck, miggity, miggity mic
check.
Okay, so I swear.
Liz (03:46):
Now, this was my whole conjecture before I hit the
record button, which was wouldan average person notice this
difference or is this likemusician thing?
Audio engineers hit us up.
Help, I want to know.
I'm dying to know.
I don't know why.
Steph (04:01):
Is this a thing?
Liz (04:06):
I don't know why.
We've had this set up for along time, and this is the first
time I'm deciding to experimentwith this.
But what's the deal?
Everybody and I don't know, doother people hear different
frequencies?
Steph (04:11):
Yes, so, speaking of crossovers, as we hinted at the
beginning, we're having thisconversation with Miriam Shulman
and she's a visual artist, butshe has lots of tips for us and
everyone in the performing arts.
So if you enjoy this episode Ithink you're going to get so
much out of it Please share itwith somebody who you think
would also enjoy it Absolutely.
(04:32):
Or, you know, yeah, tag us onsocial media.
Helping to get the word out ishuge for us and we appreciate
every single message and everysingle share and every single
conversation you have with yourfriends that puts them onto us.
Liz (04:45):
Absolutely.
It means the world to us, thoseof you who have been supporting
us throughout our journey, andthose of you joining for the
first time welcome.
And speaking of yet anothercrossover, I'm going to steal
Stephanie's line.
Please enjoy this conversationwith Miriam Shulman.
Steph (05:04):
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Liz (05:56):
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Steph (06:07):
Our guest today.
Miriam Schulman is an artist,author and art business coach.
From her own journey working onWall Street to building a
thriving business from theground up, she truly believes
that anyone can make a livingfrom their art.
Miriam learned so much in herpath that she started a podcast,
the Inspiration Place, in 2018.
She wrote a book, artpreneur,and she coaches artists to use
(06:29):
what she's learned to createfreedom in their careers while
doing what they love creatingart and we are so excited to
welcome you to the MusicianCentric Podcast, Miriam.
Miriam (06:38):
Thanks so much for having me.
I'm excited to be here and forour conversations.
We were having so much funbefore you hit record, so I know
it's going to be yeah, yeah,it's going to be great.
Steph (06:48):
And I have to admit that I'm fangirling a bit here,
having just finished your bookbut for anybody who doesn't know
your story, I think you need togive us a short version,
because it's so moving and Ithink that so many people will
find it familiar and relatable,like especially if they've come
to their creative career afterdoing something else.
Miriam (07:05):
Yeah, Well, like many people maybe in your audience, I
was told you can't make aliving that way, right?
So I wanted to be an artist andI was told no, and, being from
a single parent household, myfather passed away when I was
very young and I was onfinancial aid and I had a going
to graduate with a mountain ofdebt.
So I took what I thought wasthe practical route and went to
(07:28):
Wall Street.
I mean, I did take a lot of artand art history classes while I
was in college, but I tookenough of the other stuff that I
was.
I went to Wall Street.
You know it was.
The money was great.
I can't lie about that.
And, being from somebody who didnot grow up that way, we really
struggled for a lot of timesduring my childhood.
My mother was on, we wereliving off of Social Security.
(07:49):
It was great.
The financial freedom issomething.
However, when 9-11 happened, Iknew I couldn't go working in
the trade center during thattime, but I had worked in the
trade center and I was on my ownkind of extended maternity
(08:10):
leave.
Like I had just told my bosses,I want to take a break from
this and I didn't know if I wasgoing to go back after a year
either to that job, another job.
I didn't know what I was goingto do, but when 9-11 happened, I
took that as a sign from theuniverse not to go back, and I
know that a lot of people lookat the pandemic through a
(08:31):
similar lens, that that was aturning point for them, that you
know, we had the greatresignation and people quiet
quitting, and this was somethingthat I was determined to make a
living out of my art thing thatI was determined to make a
living out of my art.
At first I still didn't believethat I could do it, so I took
other jobs.
One of them was as a Pilatesinstructor and when I was
(08:53):
working for the health club,their business model is to sell
personal training packages, sothey had a vested interest in
training us in sales techniquesand I was like, well, I really
don't care about sellingpersonal training packages, but
I could use this to sell my artand all this is transferable.
So everything we're talkingabout it's going to be true for
(09:16):
visual artists like the ones Icoach.
It's going to be true formusicians.
It's going to be true forentrepreneurs who maybe sell
life coaching.
It's true for graphic artistswho sell web design.
My husband read my book.
He says oh, this is what we doin the real estate world.
So this is really justtime-tested advice that works no
matter what your industry is.
So if you're an artist and youthink you're a unicorn and
(09:38):
things don't apply to you,that's just not true.
That's reassuring.
Steph (09:41):
It is, that's right.
You don't have to reinventeverything in order to make
something happen.
Liz (09:45):
Yeah, and in terms of the parallels and of course you have
a personal tie to this worldthat we live in, Miriam that as
musicians, especiallyclassically trained musicians,
we tend to not think of that asapplying to us as business
skills, applying as sales skillsapplying to us.
But I found early in my ownlife that that is 100% not true.
(10:08):
The better you are at thosethings, the easier it is to
craft your own career and themore rewarding, in a way,
because you're doing it foryourself and that's a really big
theme that we have, of course.
So just curious to know if youhave any direct ties to share
with our experience as musicians.
Well, I'm so glad you askedthat.
Miriam (10:29):
Okay, so, one of the things that I felt I was at a
big disadvantage when I diddecide to make a career as an
artist is I had not gone to artschool, and so both of my kids
actually are very musical, andone of them is a career musician
she teaches right now.
She's teaching middle schoolorchestra.
We'll gossip more about her ina little bit.
Steph (10:51):
Oh, god bless her.
Yes, we will discuss?
Miriam (10:54):
No, we will discuss.
But you know, when she wascoming up and struggling with
traditional academics, I waslike well, you can just be a
music teacher.
And so she went to Interlochen,she went to Hart and she has a
master's in music ed fromColumbia, so she's very much in
this professional world.
(11:15):
When I tell people, oh, mydaughter's a cellist, who's
professional like you, peopleare like yeah, yeah, your
daughter plays the cello, whocares?
You know, so does everybodyelse's kid, but yeah, she is
conservatory trained.
Liz (11:24):
We get that a lot, even as professionals like oh, you play
that instrument, that's so cool.
Miriam (11:34):
It's such a great hobby.
You know it's not a hobby, it'sa career.
Yeah, it is very interesting.
And you know what I get as avisual artist?
Oh, my kid is doing great stuff.
You want to look?
I'm like no, I really don't.
Liz (11:41):
Yeah, it's that challenge to communicate to the greater
society in which we exist thatart of any form is a viable
career path.
It's challenging.
That is a challenging thing itis.
Miriam (11:54):
And then, like people who will meet me, they'll say,
oh, but you don't really makemoney, right, it's your husband.
I'm like, oh, that's so cute,stephanie is seething over there
.
Steph (12:03):
So when I was reading your book, there are so many of
the sections that absolutelyresonated with me, but one that
I think that musicians reallyoverlook, and that is selling
yourself.
We always think, at least inthe classical music world, we're
going to take an audition andour playing will speak for
itself, we're going to get a job, or we're going to go to
academia, or we're going to goto academia, we're going to
(12:25):
become a teacher, and we don'tthink of what happens if that
doesn't happen for you.
What are you left with?
And a lot of musicians justdon't know how to sell
themselves.
So what can you offer ourlisteners, who are musicians,
and why should they be able tosell themselves?
Why is that important?
Miriam (12:44):
Okay, so let's do a reframe, because what most
people think, and my artistsespecially, is they have to sell
themselves and they makestatements like I've always
wanted to be an artist and eversince I was five I had a crayon
in my hand and I love to paintand when I paint I feel so good
(13:04):
and whenever I make a paintingit connects me to God, and it
doesn't matter how pretty thesewords are and I know my daughter
being a musician, when she goesin interviews it's the same
thing.
I want to do that.
Notice.
Every single sentence beginswith the word I, and the number
one rule I would say in businessbut this is really just
relationships and life ingeneral is nobody cares about
(13:27):
you, nobody cares about you,they only care about, especially
in business, what you can dofor them.
So every sentence should startoff with either the word you or
who the consumer is going to be.
So, for example, can we justlike circle back to the dreadful
middle school music teacher job.
Steph (13:45):
Okay.
Miriam (13:46):
Yes, please.
So my daughter she's had a fewleave replacement jobs, which
have all been lovely and nice.
She loves teaching orchestraand this year she accepted a
tenure track position, which shewas so excited about where she
gets to teach a few orchestraclasses to middle schoolers and
she also teaches general music.
Now, for those who don't knowwhat that is, the kids who don't
(14:06):
want to sign up for orchestraand don't want to sign up for
band and don't want to sign upfor chorus have to take
something.
Yes, in New York I don't knowif it's true everywhere, but in
New York, at least in her county, they do and those kids are in
middle school general music, andso basically she's like a
corrections officer.
And she has never had toexperience this before, where
(14:28):
she's with kids who just reallydon't want to do it.
I mean, she's had theoccasional kid who, whose
parents were making them do it,but not like the whole class was
like out to get her.
You know his life and theirmean girls, their mean girls.
You know it's like.
You know, middle school is MrsShulman, what are you wearing?
Steph (14:46):
It's really bad, and they have this language that you
can't even understand.
That's right, and my daughterwas, like as many musicians like
she was not a cool kid, so it'slike it's like PTSD in there,
like what am I doing in herewith these bullies?
Miriam (15:02):
Okay.
So she was prepping for aninterview and she's saying well,
you know, I'm going to tellthem how much I like this and
how much I like that, and blah,blah, blah and why I love music.
And I said, oh, that's verylovely.
I gave her advice.
I doubt she took my advicebecause I'm the mom, but I hope
your listeners will listen to me.
So I said to her think about,even in this job or in your last
job, tell me about that littlegirl who wrote you the letter at
(15:24):
the end of the year, who theeighth grader, who said she made
friends and she loved it andshe was so happy she stuck with
it.
She said Sophie.
All right, tell them aboutSophie on the interview.
So why do you want to teachmiddle school orchestra?
Then you can say something.
Well, last year I had thischild, Sophie, and I made such a
difference in her life.
Or talk about the letter yougot from the kid Rio who moved
(15:46):
to Japan and how much that musichelped him when he was
struggling with the language.
Or tell them about a fifthgrader who you had a
breakthrough with.
So this is business skills.
They don't realize.
It is telling case studies ofyour clients, and if you're a
teacher, your clients are yourstudents, and that is what
somebody interviewing you as ateacher would want to learn
(16:07):
about it.
They don't care how much youlike doing it, they really don't
.
Steph (16:11):
Yeah yeah, yeah, that's.
It's such an important skill isto be able to tell stories
right.
That's what people relate, yeah.
Liz (16:16):
And this is great, because I know for a fact that we do
have other musicians in exactlythe same career field who listen
loyally to the podcast, and sothey're going to be laughing
right along with that story.
So let's take this from aninterview, setting into a
musician who has somethingthey're trying to put out there
that's their own.
It could be marketing for aprivate studio, something like
(16:38):
that, where they're teaching,but it could also be their own
music.
Well, it's the same thing.
Miriam (16:43):
Let's say you're gigging .
Let's say you want to play yourharp at weddings, but you know,
nobody cares how much you loveit.
Oh, I love to play at weddings.
That's not what's going to getyou hired.
It's like I played this pieceat the wedding and everybody was
crying, you know when I doweddings.
This is like their big memory,and it's so.
You're, you're painting apicture with what you do, but
(17:05):
you're thinking not aboutyourself and how you like to do
it, but the audience, and that'swhat you're selling to people
is the result.
Steph (17:13):
What is the result of what you do so?
Miriam (17:15):
there's something I like to talk about and this is not
in the book, but we'll maybe thenext book.
So, as a musicians, you shouldyou probably relate to this.
We have two aspects of our soul, and the creative aspect of our
soul is the what and the how,and as artists and musicians,
we're very concerned with thewhat and the how.
But what people buy is why andwho, and that's what you need to
(17:37):
talk about.
Steph (17:38):
Okay, so the two sides of our soul are the creative side
is the what and the how, the whyand the who is the sacred side.
Liz (17:46):
Yeah that's giving me artist's way vibes big time.
It's a.
Miriam (17:50):
Kabbalist concept of having.
Liz (17:52):
I love it.
I love it so much and it makesso much sense because and I was
just thinking this before yousaid that, Miriam, that the
artist, often when we have somesort of creative endeavor, we
are concerned with thisexpression coming from ourselves
.
That's where it comes fromright, it comes from me and I'm
doing this thing right, and sothe shift is in once you release
(18:14):
that, like the answering thosequestions means everything and,
yeah, it's just so good.
Miriam (18:20):
Love it, I mean it should make it easier for you
and more aligned when you areair quotes, selling yourself
like not to think of it that way.
But think about is that you'resharing the sacred side who and
why, what and how is what you do?
And we're human beings, nothuman doings.
Steph (18:36):
Yes, it's one of my favorite things I love to talk
about pricing your art.
There's a really great sectionall about this about how to
determine how much to charge for, you know, appearances in your
world, pieces in our world maybeit's private lessons, maybe
it's classes, these kind ofthings and there's one thing
(18:57):
that I think that all of us arereally guilty of, and that is
crowdsourcing our prices.
So could you talk a little bitabout what that means to
crowdsource and what we shouldbe doing instead?
Miriam (19:09):
Yes, so crowdsourcing is ?
You're making earrings, so yougo to a flea market and you say
everyone at this flea market isselling earrings for $15.
So I can't possibly sell myearrings for more than $15.
But since I'm just starting out, I should probably charge 12,
which is like pulling in anotherstarving artist thought.
As opposed to I'm making theseearrings.
(19:30):
And then, instead of going tothe flea market, you go to
Bergdorf Goodman and you say,okay, let me look around and see
what these bespoke earrings areNow.
Oh whoa, those are $240.
And so that's not crowdsourcing, that's like going high end.
But to get rid of that thoughtthat you're just starting out, I
can't charge those prices.
These are all thoughts, so thisgets into a lot of what I talk
(19:53):
about, and I laced thisthroughout the book, because
mindset is so important for lifeand for business, and we all
have these thought clouds thatpass through, and we think that
our thoughts are facts andthey're not just because you
think something doesn't make ittrue, and but we observe our
through.
And we think that our thoughtsare facts and they're not just
because you think somethingdoesn't make it true, and but we
observe our thoughts and we'relike, well, I could never do
(20:13):
that.
So whenever you have fear.
So this is a evolutionarymechanism, people who feel this
way it's not because there'ssomething wrong with you, it's
not because you're stupid, it'snot because you're broken.
Humans have evolved forsurvival.
We're supposed to be afraid oftigers.
We cannot tell the difference,though, between a tiger and
charging a high price.
But if something makes us feeluncomfortable, our brain is
(20:35):
going to sense that discomfortor fear and it will come up with
all kinds of reasons why it's aterrible idea.
So I don't call it excuses, Icall it doubts.
But when we feel something's aterrible idea and the more and
the smarter you are and the morecreative you are which is
everyone we're talking to todaythe better you'll be at coming
up with those kinds of storiesabout why it's a terrible idea.
(20:56):
So you have fear that leads todoubt, doubt that leads to these
stories.
So what do people do?
They're either going tocrowdsource, as you said, which
means they're going to research,all this research,
procrastinate, learning, what doI charge?
Or they just get confused.
I don't know, I don't know, Idon't know.
And either way, they end uppretty much either
procrastinating or doing nothing, because if you do lots of
research, you'll get conflictingadvice.
(21:18):
Maybe something else will comeup.
Oh, that's a bad idea, I can'tnever do that.
And this?
So, like I said, it leads toprocrastination.
The confusion, overwhelm, leadsto procrastination, which ends
up making you just feel badbecause you're not taking action
to move your dreams forward.
And it's not your fault.
You're not alone.
This is the way humans werebuilt to keep us alive and safe
(21:48):
learning.
Liz (21:49):
That's so good.
I just listened to one of yourpodcasts in this month that came
out right when you got backfrom Israel, it seems, and you
were talking about emotionaldiscipline and in that you
referenced this, but related toeven just the motivation to get
started with something, that youfeel that you can't create this
and you can procrastinate outof fear.
Oh yeah.
Miriam (22:04):
And the thing about procrastinating is it feels like
you're doing something.
It feels like very necessaryresearch.
I'm doing this, I don't, can'tmake a mistake.
Like it feels like you're doingsomething, but you're really
not taking action.
And it's much better to justtry something.
Scientific method.
Let's try it and see if itworks, and then, if it doesn't,
(22:25):
try something else or try it ina different way, you'll learn
much faster, taking action andbeing willing to fail at it.
Steph (22:31):
Yeah, it's in those failures, though, that we learn
things.
You have to have those failuresin order to learn.
If you did everything perfectall the time you wouldn't learn
anything.
Yeah, I love that.
I love that just getting outthere, because I'm personally
totally guilty of theprocrastinating.
I want to learn everythingthere is so that I do things
right the first time and itleads to a lot of unfinished
(22:53):
projects.
Miriam (22:54):
And then the expectation that you should do something
right the first time.
So if it doesn't go right, wellthen I must be stupid, I must
be this, I must be that, ratherthan be like well, I'm just
going to try it a different way,see I appreciate this about you
, Stephanie, because I don'thave any of that in me
whatsoever.
Liz (23:12):
I'm more of the person who's like I just have failure
to launch, like it's.
It's like I know I want to do athing but unless I feel that,
unless I push myself past the, Icould just jump in and try a
thing.
But it's like it's juststarting.
It is the problem.
The research part.
I'm too ADHD for that.
Steph (23:30):
Liz, what's the project?
Liz (23:32):
You already know what the project is.
I know I want you to share it.
I'm trying to cross over into amarket that is more related to
the rock and roll world asopposed to the tradition I come
from, and in order to do that,it requires me to build up a set
of skills.
But in order for me to get thatset of skills, I just have to
jump in and start trying it, andthat's where I've been stuck
(23:54):
for a little while, because Ikeep thinking I'm going to do it
, but I don't know how to do itand I don't know where to start,
and I wish I was doing research.
Miriam (24:12):
But I'm not doing anything.
So it's you know.
Yeah, that's where.
Steph (24:13):
I'm at.
Miriam (24:13):
Miriam, I think, especially somebody coming from
a conservatory world wherethere's such a linear path to
where you need to go and thereis a lot of training and
education involved, so to dosomething where it's more of a
wild, wild west.
But I see you guys both starteda podcast.
Did you take like years ofpodcast?
Did you get an MBA inpodcasting?
No, right.
Okay, no, you told me, youbought the cheapest thing you
could find on Amazon.
And there we go.
Liz (24:35):
Okay, let me actually I'm gonna.
I'm gonna share this too,because this is something I've
been thinking about a lot,particularly in the last several
months, when I when I sort ofdecided this is something I want
to do.
I'm also a very collaborativeperson, and so starting this
podcast didn't actually feel theleast bit scary because I had
my partner with me.
(24:55):
But doing something that's justan expression of myself, it's
something I desire for myself.
Being externally motivated is abig thing for me.
Having that internal motivationis much more challenging.
Miriam (25:07):
Well, why don't you create some external
accountability by telling yourpodcast people what you're doing
and give yourself a deadline.
It's finally very specific.
I mean, this is what I do.
I like nouns on the podcast.
Guess what?
I'm writing?
A book you know, like okay,where is it?
Steph (25:23):
I love that.
Yes, that's so important.
Miriam (25:30):
It's so important for many people people to be like I
said I was going to do thisthing and now, okay, I guess I
have to do this thing now, likethere's very few people.
If you're the only one whoknows you're going to supposed
to do it, we'll do it.
Maybe hermione granger, I don'tknow who else you know?
Liz (25:42):
yeah, I keep telling my friends, but then?
But now it's out and now it'son the internet.
So it.
Stephanie's going to make asocial media reel about it.
Steph (25:53):
That's a great point, Miriam.
When is this going to?
Liz (25:56):
happen, and how will we?
Steph (25:56):
know that it's actually a thing.
Liz (26:00):
Well, the goal is to actually put them online.
So my experiment is going to goonline.
So why don't we just say thatI'll have something within the
next six weeks.
I'll have something online?
I've been stewing about it fora very long time, so six weeks
seems reasonable.
Miriam (26:16):
Six weeks from today or six weeks from when this airs.
Liz (26:19):
How about six weeks from today, just to be super?
So it's the end of March, it'sMarch 28th, so by the end of six
weeks from now.
Miriam (26:26):
By Mother's Day, you'll give birth to some rock and roll
by mother manifesting, yes,okay.
Steph (26:32):
So, miriam, what's your spiritual take on making things
happen in your life?
Is it something that you putout into the universe, like we
just did, or how do you getyourself to?
Miriam (26:42):
the next.
I'm very spiritual and Ipretend not to be, but I tell, I
tell some people I manifestedmy husband, my daughter
manifested our cat.
Yeah, so you know there's somethings like if you look for
things in your life, you'll seethat there's more about that
than you know.
I like to pretend I'm very, youknow, miss scientific method
(27:02):
and everything, but it's notthat I pretend.
It's like sometimes I reallythink that way and then other
times I'm like no wait, there'sa lot more going on here.
And if you are open to findingand being very clear about what
you're looking for and believingthat it's there and that's
really what manifestation isabout.
It's about being willing tobelieve about what is possible
(27:27):
for you.
Liz (27:28):
Yes.
Steph (27:28):
Yeah, we get in our own way a lot of the time, and
you're familiar with this, withthe starving artist mentality.
And where do you find thebelief in yourself, in your art,
in order to put yourself?
Miriam (27:42):
out there.
Great question.
So what I talk about is thebelief triad.
So I do hear a lot ofself-development gurus.
They talk about what you said,Steph, the belief in yourself,
belief in your art.
But the third part of thattriad is belief in the buyer,
the customer, the audience,whatever you want to put in for
that third part of the triad,and the best way I can
(28:04):
illustrate this is in the moviePretty Woman, when Julia Roberts
.
she's still dressed like ahooker, but she's got Richard
Gere's gold card and she's goingdown to Rodeo Drive and the
mean salespeople won't wait onher because they don't believe
in her and we all think thatwe're not the mean salespeople.
But we are, because how manytimes are we thinking, oh, she
(28:27):
won't pay that for my musicclass, and we think we're not
being mean.
But you're not believing in theother person, you're not
believing in the audience.
Oh, they won't like it if I dorock and roll.
I'm classically trained, yeah,so you're not believing in the
audience.
So it's that third part, thatthat's what really sabotages
most people.
Liz (28:46):
Immediately.
Think of multiple exampleswhere that's true.
For me and, I think, for peoplein our discipline in general, I
think that's very true.
So that's really interesting.
And also, if you want somethingreally nice and woo-woo, to tie
together your scientific methodand your manifestation.
One of my favorite pieces ofinformation that I've learned
and of course this is not this,is not new information, but that
(29:09):
in science, what we'vediscovered is that every piece
of matter is all made up of thesame particles, right, which
means that everything isconnected.
No matter which approach youtake, whether it's scientific or
it's spiritual, everything'sconnected.
And so if you're trying thingsout through the scientific
method, you are manifestingright.
(29:29):
You're putting things out thereand seeing what comes back, and
so I love that so much becausethere's room for both, and I
think a good balance of the twois really that's the way forward
more than anything else.
Steph (29:42):
That's so good, yeah, so let's say, you have a belief in
yourself, a belief in yourproduct, a belief in your
audience, and you need to marketyourself.
Now, right, you need to getyourself out there into the
world.
There's an incredible sectionon your book about prospecting,
about how to get in front of theright people, and one thing
(30:03):
that we all have in common nowis social media, right, so
there's some advantages to thatway of getting yourself out
there, but there's other ways todo it as well.
So could you talk about how youcoach your clients to get their
art in front of people and whatare some of the benefits, the
pros and cons of social media,the pros and cons of the other
ways that you talk about?
Miriam (30:23):
So many things we can unpack right now.
Liz (30:26):
I know, I know.
Miriam (30:28):
So there's that myth that is put out there that you
just have to post on socialmedia and it makes it really
easy and introverts love thatidea that they can just post
things on social media andpeople will find you and you
know the art sells itself andyou know it's really, that's
what people are thinking.
And then the gurus who chargeoodles of money to teach you how
(30:50):
to build these followings onthe social media they're the
ones who's pushing this myth.
So I did research for the bookbecause my my first draft of the
book the publishers were.
The editor who was assigned tomy book was really upset with me
.
They're like well, you reallydidn't talk about social media.
I think that's because you'rein your 50s and you're old
fashioned.
I was like crying, by the way,with this editor.
Steph (31:11):
I was like oh my God.
Miriam (31:13):
But then Once I dried my eyes, I was like the problem
with my book was not that Ididn't talk enough about it, but
I didn't make a strong enoughcase about why it's not
effective, because it isn'tbecause I'm old fashioned.
The old fashioned way is tothink that you can just rely on
this.
So let me share the numbers.
The numbers.
(31:34):
The numbers don't lie even ifyou're woke, Because the numbers
don't lie even if you're woke.
Yes, yes, the averageengagement rate on Instagram and
I did update this.
It's still pretty much the samefor 2023, 2024.
The average rate for a personan engagement rate is 0.6%.
(31:56):
Not 6%, not 60% 0.6.
What does that mean?
If you have a thousand peoplefollowing you, six people will
engage with what you're doing onaverage.
So you can think well, maybe Ineed to learn better techniques
for engaging so I'm not averageanymore.
The average engagement rate foran influencer.
(32:18):
An influencer is a pro.
Liz (32:21):
Someone who does it full time A pro 1.2%, 1.2.
Miriam (32:27):
So out of their thousand followers, 12 people.
So what about email Email?
So the average open rate onemail is 24%.
So if you have a hundred peopleI don't even talk about 1000s
anymore you have 100 people onyour email list, you would have
24 people engaging with you.
To get the same exact result onInstagram, you would need 4000
(32:50):
followers, which is why it'smuch easier to build an audience
and make money from thataudience when you build an email
list rather than a social mediafollowing.
I'm not saying don't do socialmedia, but it's a lot harder.
Liz (33:05):
Yeah, Can we go further down this rabbit hole?
So emails 24% engagement.
Miriam (33:12):
Open rate Open rate.
So that means they will seewhat it is you're talking about.
Liz (33:16):
Yeah, that's right.
That's right.
And I mean, I know from anotherbusiness I run that once we
started consistently writing andsending emails advertising our
performances, we sold moretickets.
We sell more tickets.
We just do.
It's actually you know, I havefirsthand experience with this
which is great.
In the world of sales.
There's this whole otheruniverse of networking and I'm
(33:40):
curious to know how that ties in, because if you have this much
you can expect from your emails,then when it comes to in-person
engagement or showing up, howdo you increase that exposure in
that way?
Or do you have suggestions forthat?
Because I know it's difficultfor us to envision, probably as
musicians like what that mightlook like.
(34:00):
I always think on a gig we'renetworking, no matter what, with
everybody we work with, but Idon't know.
Are there other avenues to takethat offer you even more?
Miriam (34:09):
Right here what we're doing today.
So, there's three ways that youcan build your audience.
So the first is your universe.
Your universe is your socialmedia, your, if you do blogs, if
you go in person, any, anyplace that you interact with
people in your world.
That's what we talked aboutthose warm people that you're
(34:30):
already in front of.
The second way, which I thinkhas the most opportunity,
because people do not takeadvantage of this, is free
publicity.
So the first part is youruniverse.
These are other people'suniverses.
This is earned press and theartists who do it, and artists,
visual artists as well asmusicians.
(34:52):
When you take advantage of this, this is a huge opportunity to
introduce yourself to a newaudience while building
credibility for yourself.
So it's not just who gets whosees it in your local paper, but
now that is part of yourportfolio of as seen on.
and then the third way is paidpress, so in other words
(35:14):
advertising.
So those are the three ways tobuild your audience.
Steph (35:18):
Yeah, those are great ways like for us as a podcast,
even, you know to go out andfind publications, find someone
who's going to do a story onyour next concert or you know,
like press contacts, things likethis.
Yeah, I love that, and I don'tthink enough people I don't
think enough people think thatwhat they're offering is good
enough to go out and do that.
I think that's where the bighandicap is for many people.
Miriam (35:40):
Totally that and also circle back to what we were
talking about before.
When they do go out to pitchthemselves their aye-aye instead
of thinking about how is thisinteresting, so it's not the
what and the how, becausethey'll write all about the what
and the how.
Steph (35:57):
It's who and?
Miriam (35:58):
why and that's what makes the most interesting
stories for the press is who areyou doing this for and why does
it matter?
Your art matters art, music,theater.
It matters more than any othertime when you have these
existential crises.
This is when people need art,they need music.
(36:19):
This is, this is the who andthe why.
This is the sacred part that'sgoing to help them make sense of
things, and they need it.
And right now with AI lookinglike it's going to take over the
world and you can stream anymusic you want for $9.99 a month
.
Who's making the most money?
Taylor Swift has like billionsof dollars, and why is that,
(36:39):
when you can stream it all forfree?
Because people want the realthing.
Steph (36:43):
Yes, Yep, they want to go to the concert.
Yep, yeah, they, they want it.
That's so powerful.
That's so powerful and youdeserve to be paid for it too.
Yeah, there's this wonderfulquote that is in your book that
this just reminded me of thatwhen you were talking with
Denise Duffield Thomas, and shesays why should art and beauty
be so cheap that we burnourselves out creating it for
(37:05):
people?
You know that at the root ofthis is the belief in yourself
that you are providing somethingthat is valuable to other
people and that without that,you can't go out and sell
yourself to anyone.
Liz (37:17):
Yeah, it's really true and I think it happens in so many
little micro ways along thecourse of a career because
you're so dedicated to the artthat you're willing to take
whatever you can get withoutrecognizing maybe early on that
you you can assign that valuefor yourself and you can decide.
You know this is worth a lot.
(37:38):
Actually I've been, I've beentoying recently with.
I still get emails sometimesfrom people that I used to work
for for far less per service wecall it per service in our world
than I do now.
I would never say yes again andI'm really graceful.
I just kind of write great, youknow, I write back with
gratitude and I say thank you somuch, but I'm not available and
part of me recently.
(37:59):
I got one recently and Ithought I feel like there's a
respectful way for me to justsay thank you so much.
But like my expectation is thatyou know I get paid X amount
per service now and nothing less.
Miriam (38:11):
Well, yeah, I mean like for some reason, this is what
you were saying earlier aboutthe education for other people
is like they think we'll do itfor exposure and us artists, we
can dive over exposure.
And this doesn't happen in anyother industry, like you would
never say to your plumber youknow what?
You should give me a deal onthis because, well, we'll just
hang a sign over my toilet thatsays you did the work because
(38:33):
because there's a lot of peoplewho use my toilet.
You would never do that.
So it's like why should we dothings for free for exposure?
We don't need exposure.
Liz (38:43):
Right To create it for ourselves.
Steph (38:45):
Well, it's hard to like us in the in the music industry.
There's all these singersongwriters on tick tock that
are doing this for free.
Miriam (38:52):
Let them it's gonna be banned soon anyway, yeah, well,
yeah.
Steph (38:55):
So change that to whatever you want Instagram,
Facebook, whatever that's onsocial media these days but I
think it kind of perpetuates theidea that we'll do it for free.
You can get this art for free.
Miriam (39:06):
Well, you can, but that doesn't stop people from buying
spending a lot of money on it.
My husband has a tremendouslylarge and expensive vinyl
collection.
People like investing in thingslike that.
We already talked about theTaylor Swift concert.
People want the real thing, soit doesn't matter if they can
(39:28):
get it for free on TikTokSitting at your phone.
That's not the experience.
That's not sacred.
There's nothing sacred aboutlooking at my phone.
Steph (39:37):
It's the community and it's being with other people.
That's what makes concertexperiences so moving.
Liz (39:43):
Yes, and in our world as freelancers, whatever that might
look like let's say it's asinger, songwriter trying to
make this work it's findingthose other doors.
It's finding, like, okay, youknow, if I just try to do this
on social media, I'm just goingto be like another voice in the
crowd.
But if I find, if I find theright people in the right place,
the who, if I find the who,then I have something marketable
(40:06):
.
You know it's, it's that'sreally interesting, amazing.
Steph (40:08):
Yeah, so many great points oh and.
I'll say that for any anyartist, musicians included, the
your book art print is worth aread.
It's not only hilarious andmoving, it's very informative,
and this is stuff that we don'tlearn in music school and I bet
that a lot of artists don'tlearn.
That's why it's so valuable.
That's why you wrote it.
Miriam (40:28):
I mean, I wrote it for me of 20 years ago.
This is like I basicallytalking to my past self, but
many, many selves out there whoneed, who needed this voice.
Liz (40:38):
Yeah, it's, that's really beautiful and and you also
started doing a podcast on thesetopics kind of before it was
like hugely, hugely, hugelypopular.
I feel like you were a littleahead of the curve.
I don't know, at least in theart world or in the artist world
, because we, you know, asmusicians, yeah, these
(41:00):
conversations relate so much,like all of the topics that you
discuss on your podcast as well,just so helpful and inspiring,
which is literally the title ofthe podcast.
So it's really refreshing tospeak with someone who has this
understanding, maybe in adifferent discipline, but
there's so much we can relate toand so that's so great and I
(41:22):
think our audience is going tolove it too.
Steph (41:24):
So for all those folks that love what they heard here
today, like we did.
Where can they find you?
What other things do you have?
Well, if you like what youheard today.
Miriam (41:33):
This was good Kool-Aid.
I have more of that at theInspiration Place.
It's on every podcast app andmy book, artpreneur, is
available in Barnes Noble Amazon, and I have some freebies for
you.
If you head on over toartpreneurbookcom, you'll see
(41:53):
the bonus package that you canget for ordering the book.
Steph (41:58):
Awesome, nice, I haven't checked it out yet.
You don't have to order thebook through me.
Miriam (42:01):
If you order it someplace else, whether it's an
indie bookstore, just let usknow.
You can email us a picture ofyou holding the book.
We don't.
Steph (42:08):
I love it.
That's right Low tech I got itfrom the library.
Miriam (42:11):
That's fine, too Accessible.
Steph (42:12):
We don't care, but you also offer coaching as well.
Miriam (42:16):
Those who want to take it to the next level, I have the
artist incubator.
The lessons I teach in the bookare for everybody.
My coaching program is gearedmore towards visual artists, but
visual artists of all kindsdigital photography, painting,
ceramicist macrame, et cetera,et cetera.
So you can learn about that onmy website or just by listening
(42:36):
to the podcast.
Amazing.
Steph (42:37):
Great Well.
Thanks so much for making timefor us today this has been
really inspiring.
Miriam (42:42):
Thanks for having me.
It was such a fun conversation.
Liz (42:47):
Thank you so much for listening today.
If you loved this episode,consider writing us a five star
review on Apple Podcasts, amazonMusic, spotify or wherever you
listen.
Steph (42:57):
Thanks also to our season sponsor, Potter Violins.
Liz (43:00):
If you'd like to support the podcast and get access to
bonus content, consider joiningour Patreon community.
Steph (43:06):
You can buy all your musician-centric merch,
including shirts, water bottles,koozies and a variety of other
fun items.
Liz (43:14):
Our theme music was written and produced by JP Wogeman and
is performed by Steph and myself.
Steph (43:19):
Our episodes are produced by Liz O'Hara and edited by
Emily McMahon.
Liz (43:23):
Thanks again for listening.
Let's talk soon.
For our listeners who've been with us for a long time.
For those of you listening forthe first time, we're going to
try introing our conversationthat is coming up within the
next 10 minutes or so on theepisode.
So we're really excited todayto bring you an episode where we
had a guest named MiriamShulman, who is absolutely
incredible.
I'm going to let Stephanie talkabout her because she found her
(00:21):
online and was fangirling alittle bit and, to be honest, I
didn't know Miriam's work allthat well until we started the
conversation, but once we got tothe end I was fangirling too.
She was absolutely amazing.
It was such a good conversationand we're really excited for
you to be able to hear it in alittle bit, yeah.
Steph (00:37):
So Miriam, she is a visual artist and she also has a
podcast called InspirationPlace.
But today we talked with hermostly about her book, which is
called Artpreneur, and it's allabout helping artists to make
what they do as a creativeendeavor into a career.
So how to sell yourself, how tosell art, how to build
(00:59):
relationships that will profitdown the line.
And I was reading about her andI read her book and I was just
thinking these are read her bookand I was just thinking these
are skills that all of usartists can use.
Whether you're in visual art,whether you're a performing
artist, whether you're amusician, you can use these
skills and we're not taught them.
So I got so much inspirationjust from reading her book and I
(01:19):
highly recommend it.
But we talk about pricing, wetalk about knowing your worth as
an artist and how to sellyourself out there on the
marketplace.
We talk about social media, wetalk about promotion in this
episode.
So I think everybody's gonnareally find something that that
speaks to them, that they needin that moment.
Liz (01:38):
Yeah, it was amazing how much crossover was in that
conversation and it is soidentifiable.
You know, no matter whatdiscipline of a creative
endeavor you're coming from,there's just so much you can
relate in terms of taking thatkind of path in life.
And, yeah, it was just so.
It was truly so inspiring andyou know, she got a little woo
woo with us, which I very muchappreciate.
Steph (01:59):
Yes, I felt like this was like the perfect bridge from
the Artist's Way.
If you read the Artist's Wayand you did all that and you
know your morning pages andconnecting with your inner child
, blah, blah, blah.
But okay, now come into thereal world and this is what you
need to do, now that you knowyour worth as an artist how to
show your worth in themarketplace.
Yeah, absolutely Welcome to theMusician Centric Podcast.
(02:22):
We are two freelance violistsliving and laughing our way
through conversations thatexplore what it means to be a
professional musician in today'sworld.
I'm Steph.
Liz (02:31):
And I'm Liz and we're so glad you've joined us.
Let's dive in.
I don't know if it's.
Is that like a super sensitivemusician thing?
Like would the average personnotice Well, what did you hear?
Okay, wait, let's do it again.
All right, for even morecontext.
Everybody you know how well youmight not know this unless you
(02:52):
have these kinds of headphonesbut one says R and one says L,
but like they look exactly thesame.
So you're like rightTheoretically if you just switch
them, does it matter?
And then my microphone cordwouldn't be across my body, it
would just be Okay.
So I've been playing aroundwith this and Stephanie said,
well, how is it different?
And I was like wait, I don'tknow.
So okay, Now I'm doing it theright way, which is the
(03:13):
headphones on the right, righton right, yeah L on left.
I'm following the directions.
Steph (03:26):
I don't like even maybe Okay.
Liz (03:27):
Yeah, even yeah, like across the my head, okay, okay.
Steph (03:28):
Okay, so now I'm going to switch them.
Okay, all right Now.
Okay, so, just for continuitymiggity, mic check, miggity,
miggity, mic check, I mean trulyit's different.
Liz (03:35):
Okay, do it again.
I just took the right ear off,guys, which is actually the left
ear.
Steph (03:39):
This is like the mirroring conversation we had
about the camera Yeahity miccheck, miggity, miggity mic
check.
Okay, so I swear.
Liz (03:46):
Now, this was my whole conjecture before I hit the
record button, which was wouldan average person notice this
difference or is this likemusician thing?
Audio engineers hit us up.
Help, I want to know.
I'm dying to know.
I don't know why.
Steph (04:01):
Is this a thing?
Liz (04:06):
I don't know why.
We've had this set up for along time, and this is the first
time I'm deciding to experimentwith this.
But what's the deal?
Everybody and I don't know, doother people hear different
frequencies?
Steph (04:11):
Yes, so, speaking of crossovers, as we hinted at the
beginning, we're having thisconversation with Miriam Shulman
and she's a visual artist, butshe has lots of tips for us and
everyone in the performing arts.
So if you enjoy this episode Ithink you're going to get so
much out of it Please share itwith somebody who you think
would also enjoy it Absolutely.
(04:32):
Or, you know, yeah, tag us onsocial media.
Helping to get the word out ishuge for us and we appreciate
every single message and everysingle share and every single
conversation you have with yourfriends that puts them onto us.
Liz (04:45):
Absolutely.
It means the world to us, thoseof you who have been supporting
us throughout our journey, andthose of you joining for the
first time welcome.
And speaking of yet anothercrossover, I'm going to steal
Stephanie's line.
Please enjoy this conversationwith Miriam Shulman.
Steph (05:04):
We are all busy, especially those of us who teach
music.
We give everything to ensureour students' abilities and love
of music are always growing anddeveloping.
We want to make sure each onehas the right setup and
instrument, but we barely haveenough time to practice for
ourselves sometimes.
Liz (05:19):
That's where Potter Violins can come in.
Their sales team andtechnicians are also players and
experts on all string things.
You can send your students totry instruments, get properly
sized, have their currentinstruments adjusted, or to pick
out a new bow or other stringaccessory.
You can have total confidencethat they'll be taken care of.
Potters will even ship whatyour students need anywhere in
(05:41):
the United States.
Steph (05:42):
So take one thing off your plate and send your
students over to Potter Violins,no matter what they need, and
Potter Violins loves teachers somuch they want to offer you a
10% teacher's discount becauseyou deserve it.
Liz (05:56):
Visit their flagship location in Tacoma Park,
Maryland, their rental locationin Gaithersburg, Maryland, or
shop online from anywhere atpotterviolinscom.
Steph (06:07):
Our guest today.
Miriam Schulman is an artist,author and art business coach.
From her own journey working onWall Street to building a
thriving business from theground up, she truly believes
that anyone can make a livingfrom their art.
Miriam learned so much in herpath that she started a podcast,
the Inspiration Place, in 2018.
She wrote a book, artpreneur,and she coaches artists to use
(06:29):
what she's learned to createfreedom in their careers while
doing what they love creatingart and we are so excited to
welcome you to the MusicianCentric Podcast, Miriam.
Miriam (06:38):
Thanks so much for having me.
I'm excited to be here and forour conversations.
We were having so much funbefore you hit record, so I know
it's going to be yeah, yeah,it's going to be great.
Steph (06:48):
And I have to admit that I'm fangirling a bit here,
having just finished your bookbut for anybody who doesn't know
your story, I think you need togive us a short version,
because it's so moving and Ithink that so many people will
find it familiar and relatable,like especially if they've come
to their creative career afterdoing something else.
Miriam (07:05):
Yeah, Well, like many people maybe in your audience, I
was told you can't make aliving that way, right?
So I wanted to be an artist andI was told no, and, being from
a single parent household, myfather passed away when I was
very young and I was onfinancial aid and I had a going
to graduate with a mountain ofdebt.
So I took what I thought wasthe practical route and went to
(07:28):
Wall Street.
I mean, I did take a lot of artand art history classes while I
was in college, but I tookenough of the other stuff that I
was.
I went to Wall Street.
You know it was.
The money was great.
I can't lie about that.
And, being from somebody who didnot grow up that way, we really
struggled for a lot of timesduring my childhood.
My mother was on, we wereliving off of Social Security.
(07:49):
It was great.
The financial freedom issomething.
However, when 9-11 happened, Iknew I couldn't go working in
the trade center during thattime, but I had worked in the
trade center and I was on my ownkind of extended maternity
(08:10):
leave.
Like I had just told my bosses,I want to take a break from
this and I didn't know if I wasgoing to go back after a year
either to that job, another job.
I didn't know what I was goingto do, but when 9-11 happened, I
took that as a sign from theuniverse not to go back, and I
know that a lot of people lookat the pandemic through a
(08:31):
similar lens, that that was aturning point for them, that you
know, we had the greatresignation and people quiet
quitting, and this was somethingthat I was determined to make a
living out of my art thing thatI was determined to make a
living out of my art.
At first I still didn't believethat I could do it, so I took
other jobs.
One of them was as a Pilatesinstructor and when I was
(08:53):
working for the health club,their business model is to sell
personal training packages, sothey had a vested interest in
training us in sales techniquesand I was like, well, I really
don't care about sellingpersonal training packages, but
I could use this to sell my artand all this is transferable.
So everything we're talkingabout it's going to be true for
(09:16):
visual artists like the ones Icoach.
It's going to be true formusicians.
It's going to be true forentrepreneurs who maybe sell
life coaching.
It's true for graphic artistswho sell web design.
My husband read my book.
He says oh, this is what we doin the real estate world.
So this is really justtime-tested advice that works no
matter what your industry is.
So if you're an artist and youthink you're a unicorn and
(09:38):
things don't apply to you,that's just not true.
That's reassuring.
Steph (09:41):
It is, that's right.
You don't have to reinventeverything in order to make
something happen.
Liz (09:45):
Yeah, and in terms of the parallels and of course you have
a personal tie to this worldthat we live in, Miriam that as
musicians, especiallyclassically trained musicians,
we tend to not think of that asapplying to us as business
skills, applying as sales skillsapplying to us.
But I found early in my ownlife that that is 100% not true.
(10:08):
The better you are at thosethings, the easier it is to
craft your own career and themore rewarding, in a way,
because you're doing it foryourself and that's a really big
theme that we have, of course.
So just curious to know if youhave any direct ties to share
with our experience as musicians.
Well, I'm so glad you askedthat.
Miriam (10:29):
Okay, so, one of the things that I felt I was at a
big disadvantage when I diddecide to make a career as an
artist is I had not gone to artschool, and so both of my kids
actually are very musical, andone of them is a career musician
she teaches right now.
She's teaching middle schoolorchestra.
We'll gossip more about her ina little bit.
Steph (10:51):
Oh, god bless her.
Yes, we will discuss?
Miriam (10:54):
No, we will discuss.
But you know, when she wascoming up and struggling with
traditional academics, I waslike well, you can just be a
music teacher.
And so she went to Interlochen,she went to Hart and she has a
master's in music ed fromColumbia, so she's very much in
this professional world.
(11:15):
When I tell people, oh, mydaughter's a cellist, who's
professional like you, peopleare like yeah, yeah, your
daughter plays the cello, whocares?
You know, so does everybodyelse's kid, but yeah, she is
conservatory trained.
Liz (11:24):
We get that a lot, even as professionals like oh, you play
that instrument, that's so cool.
Miriam (11:34):
It's such a great hobby.
You know it's not a hobby, it'sa career.
Yeah, it is very interesting.
And you know what I get as avisual artist?
Oh, my kid is doing great stuff.
You want to look?
I'm like no, I really don't.
Liz (11:41):
Yeah, it's that challenge to communicate to the greater
society in which we exist thatart of any form is a viable
career path.
It's challenging.
That is a challenging thing itis.
Miriam (11:54):
And then, like people who will meet me, they'll say,
oh, but you don't really makemoney, right, it's your husband.
I'm like, oh, that's so cute,stephanie is seething over there
.
Steph (12:03):
So when I was reading your book, there are so many of
the sections that absolutelyresonated with me, but one that
I think that musicians reallyoverlook, and that is selling
yourself.
We always think, at least inthe classical music world, we're
going to take an audition andour playing will speak for
itself, we're going to get a job, or we're going to go to
academia, or we're going to goto academia, we're going to
(12:25):
become a teacher, and we don'tthink of what happens if that
doesn't happen for you.
What are you left with?
And a lot of musicians justdon't know how to sell
themselves.
So what can you offer ourlisteners, who are musicians,
and why should they be able tosell themselves?
Why is that important?
Miriam (12:44):
Okay, so let's do a reframe, because what most
people think, and my artistsespecially, is they have to sell
themselves and they makestatements like I've always
wanted to be an artist and eversince I was five I had a crayon
in my hand and I love to paintand when I paint I feel so good
(13:04):
and whenever I make a paintingit connects me to God, and it
doesn't matter how pretty thesewords are and I know my daughter
being a musician, when she goesin interviews it's the same
thing.
I want to do that.
Notice.
Every single sentence beginswith the word I, and the number
one rule I would say in businessbut this is really just
relationships and life ingeneral is nobody cares about
(13:27):
you, nobody cares about you,they only care about, especially
in business, what you can dofor them.
So every sentence should startoff with either the word you or
who the consumer is going to be.
So, for example, can we justlike circle back to the dreadful
middle school music teacher job.
Steph (13:45):
Okay.
Miriam (13:46):
Yes, please.
So my daughter she's had a fewleave replacement jobs, which
have all been lovely and nice.
She loves teaching orchestraand this year she accepted a
tenure track position, which shewas so excited about where she
gets to teach a few orchestraclasses to middle schoolers and
she also teaches general music.
Now, for those who don't knowwhat that is, the kids who don't
(14:06):
want to sign up for orchestraand don't want to sign up for
band and don't want to sign upfor chorus have to take
something.
Yes, in New York I don't knowif it's true everywhere, but in
New York, at least in her county, they do and those kids are in
middle school general music, andso basically she's like a
corrections officer.
And she has never had toexperience this before, where
(14:28):
she's with kids who just reallydon't want to do it.
I mean, she's had theoccasional kid who, whose
parents were making them do it,but not like the whole class was
like out to get her.
You know his life and theirmean girls, their mean girls.
You know it's like.
You know, middle school is MrsShulman, what are you wearing?
Steph (14:46):
It's really bad, and they have this language that you
can't even understand.
That's right, and my daughterwas, like as many musicians like
she was not a cool kid, so it'slike it's like PTSD in there,
like what am I doing in herewith these bullies?
Miriam (15:02):
Okay.
So she was prepping for aninterview and she's saying well,
you know, I'm going to tellthem how much I like this and
how much I like that, and blah,blah, blah and why I love music.
And I said, oh, that's verylovely.
I gave her advice.
I doubt she took my advicebecause I'm the mom, but I hope
your listeners will listen to me.
So I said to her think about,even in this job or in your last
job, tell me about that littlegirl who wrote you the letter at
(15:24):
the end of the year, who theeighth grader, who said she made
friends and she loved it andshe was so happy she stuck with
it.
She said Sophie.
All right, tell them aboutSophie on the interview.
So why do you want to teachmiddle school orchestra?
Then you can say something.
Well, last year I had thischild, Sophie, and I made such a
difference in her life.
Or talk about the letter yougot from the kid Rio who moved
(15:46):
to Japan and how much that musichelped him when he was
struggling with the language.
Or tell them about a fifthgrader who you had a
breakthrough with.
So this is business skills.
They don't realize.
It is telling case studies ofyour clients, and if you're a
teacher, your clients are yourstudents, and that is what
somebody interviewing you as ateacher would want to learn
(16:07):
about it.
They don't care how much youlike doing it, they really don't
.
Steph (16:11):
Yeah yeah, yeah, that's.
It's such an important skill isto be able to tell stories
right.
That's what people relate, yeah.
Liz (16:16):
And this is great, because I know for a fact that we do
have other musicians in exactlythe same career field who listen
loyally to the podcast, and sothey're going to be laughing
right along with that story.
So let's take this from aninterview, setting into a
musician who has somethingthey're trying to put out there
that's their own.
It could be marketing for aprivate studio, something like
(16:38):
that, where they're teaching,but it could also be their own
music.
Well, it's the same thing.
Miriam (16:43):
Let's say you're gigging .
Let's say you want to play yourharp at weddings, but you know,
nobody cares how much you loveit.
Oh, I love to play at weddings.
That's not what's going to getyou hired.
It's like I played this pieceat the wedding and everybody was
crying, you know when I doweddings.
This is like their big memory,and it's so.
You're, you're painting apicture with what you do, but
(17:05):
you're thinking not aboutyourself and how you like to do
it, but the audience, and that'swhat you're selling to people
is the result.
Steph (17:13):
What is the result of what you do so?
Miriam (17:15):
there's something I like to talk about and this is not
in the book, but we'll maybe thenext book.
So, as a musicians, you shouldyou probably relate to this.
We have two aspects of our soul, and the creative aspect of our
soul is the what and the how,and as artists and musicians,
we're very concerned with thewhat and the how.
But what people buy is why andwho, and that's what you need to
(17:37):
talk about.
Steph (17:38):
Okay, so the two sides of our soul are the creative side
is the what and the how, the whyand the who is the sacred side.
Liz (17:46):
Yeah that's giving me artist's way vibes big time.
It's a.
Miriam (17:50):
Kabbalist concept of having.
Liz (17:52):
I love it.
I love it so much and it makesso much sense because and I was
just thinking this before yousaid that, Miriam, that the
artist, often when we have somesort of creative endeavor, we
are concerned with thisexpression coming from ourselves
.
That's where it comes fromright, it comes from me and I'm
doing this thing right, and sothe shift is in once you release
(18:14):
that, like the answering thosequestions means everything and,
yeah, it's just so good.
Miriam (18:20):
Love it, I mean it should make it easier for you
and more aligned when you areair quotes, selling yourself
like not to think of it that way.
But think about is that you'resharing the sacred side who and
why, what and how is what you do?
And we're human beings, nothuman doings.
Steph (18:36):
Yes, it's one of my favorite things I love to talk
about pricing your art.
There's a really great sectionall about this about how to
determine how much to charge for, you know, appearances in your
world, pieces in our world maybeit's private lessons, maybe
it's classes, these kind ofthings and there's one thing
(18:57):
that I think that all of us arereally guilty of, and that is
crowdsourcing our prices.
So could you talk a little bitabout what that means to
crowdsource and what we shouldbe doing instead?
Miriam (19:09):
Yes, so crowdsourcing is ?
You're making earrings, so yougo to a flea market and you say
everyone at this flea market isselling earrings for $15.
So I can't possibly sell myearrings for more than $15.
But since I'm just starting out, I should probably charge 12,
which is like pulling in anotherstarving artist thought.
As opposed to I'm making theseearrings.
(19:30):
And then, instead of going tothe flea market, you go to
Bergdorf Goodman and you say,okay, let me look around and see
what these bespoke earrings areNow.
Oh whoa, those are $240.
And so that's not crowdsourcing, that's like going high end.
But to get rid of that thoughtthat you're just starting out, I
can't charge those prices.
These are all thoughts, so thisgets into a lot of what I talk
(19:53):
about, and I laced thisthroughout the book, because
mindset is so important for lifeand for business, and we all
have these thought clouds thatpass through, and we think that
our thoughts are facts andthey're not just because you
think something doesn't make ittrue, and but we observe our
through.
And we think that our thoughtsare facts and they're not just
because you think somethingdoesn't make it true, and but we
observe our thoughts and we'relike, well, I could never do
(20:13):
that.
So whenever you have fear.
So this is a evolutionarymechanism, people who feel this
way it's not because there'ssomething wrong with you, it's
not because you're stupid, it'snot because you're broken.
Humans have evolved forsurvival.
We're supposed to be afraid oftigers.
We cannot tell the difference,though, between a tiger and
charging a high price.
But if something makes us feeluncomfortable, our brain is
(20:35):
going to sense that discomfortor fear and it will come up with
all kinds of reasons why it's aterrible idea.
So I don't call it excuses, Icall it doubts.
But when we feel something's aterrible idea and the more and
the smarter you are and the morecreative you are which is
everyone we're talking to todaythe better you'll be at coming
up with those kinds of storiesabout why it's a terrible idea.
(20:56):
So you have fear that leads todoubt, doubt that leads to these
stories.
So what do people do?
They're either going tocrowdsource, as you said, which
means they're going to research,all this research,
procrastinate, learning, what doI charge?
Or they just get confused.
I don't know, I don't know, Idon't know.
And either way, they end uppretty much either
procrastinating or doing nothing, because if you do lots of
research, you'll get conflictingadvice.
(21:18):
Maybe something else will comeup.
Oh, that's a bad idea, I can'tnever do that.
And this?
So, like I said, it leads toprocrastination.
The confusion, overwhelm, leadsto procrastination, which ends
up making you just feel badbecause you're not taking action
to move your dreams forward.
And it's not your fault.
You're not alone.
This is the way humans werebuilt to keep us alive and safe
(21:48):
learning.
Liz (21:49):
That's so good.
I just listened to one of yourpodcasts in this month that came
out right when you got backfrom Israel, it seems, and you
were talking about emotionaldiscipline and in that you
referenced this, but related toeven just the motivation to get
started with something, that youfeel that you can't create this
and you can procrastinate outof fear.
Oh yeah.
Miriam (22:04):
And the thing about procrastinating is it feels like
you're doing something.
It feels like very necessaryresearch.
I'm doing this, I don't, can'tmake a mistake.
Like it feels like you're doingsomething, but you're really
not taking action.
And it's much better to justtry something.
Scientific method.
Let's try it and see if itworks, and then, if it doesn't,
(22:25):
try something else or try it ina different way, you'll learn
much faster, taking action andbeing willing to fail at it.
Steph (22:31):
Yeah, it's in those failures, though, that we learn
things.
You have to have those failuresin order to learn.
If you did everything perfectall the time you wouldn't learn
anything.
Yeah, I love that.
I love that just getting outthere, because I'm personally
totally guilty of theprocrastinating.
I want to learn everythingthere is so that I do things
right the first time and itleads to a lot of unfinished
(22:53):
projects.
Miriam (22:54):
And then the expectation that you should do something
right the first time.
So if it doesn't go right, wellthen I must be stupid, I must
be this, I must be that, ratherthan be like well, I'm just
going to try it a different way,see I appreciate this about you
, Stephanie, because I don'thave any of that in me
whatsoever.
Liz (23:12):
I'm more of the person who's like I just have failure
to launch, like it's.
It's like I know I want to do athing but unless I feel that,
unless I push myself past the, Icould just jump in and try a
thing.
But it's like it's juststarting.
It is the problem.
The research part.
I'm too ADHD for that.
Steph (23:30):
Liz, what's the project?
Liz (23:32):
You already know what the project is.
I know I want you to share it.
I'm trying to cross over into amarket that is more related to
the rock and roll world asopposed to the tradition I come
from, and in order to do that,it requires me to build up a set
of skills.
But in order for me to get thatset of skills, I just have to
jump in and start trying it, andthat's where I've been stuck
(23:54):
for a little while, because Ikeep thinking I'm going to do it
, but I don't know how to do itand I don't know where to start,
and I wish I was doing research.
Miriam (24:12):
But I'm not doing anything.
So it's you know.
Yeah, that's where.
Steph (24:13):
I'm at.
Miriam (24:13):
Miriam, I think, especially somebody coming from
a conservatory world wherethere's such a linear path to
where you need to go and thereis a lot of training and
education involved, so to dosomething where it's more of a
wild, wild west.
But I see you guys both starteda podcast.
Did you take like years ofpodcast?
Did you get an MBA inpodcasting?
No, right.
Okay, no, you told me, youbought the cheapest thing you
could find on Amazon.
And there we go.
Liz (24:35):
Okay, let me actually I'm gonna.
I'm gonna share this too,because this is something I've
been thinking about a lot,particularly in the last several
months, when I when I sort ofdecided this is something I want
to do.
I'm also a very collaborativeperson, and so starting this
podcast didn't actually feel theleast bit scary because I had
my partner with me.
(24:55):
But doing something that's justan expression of myself, it's
something I desire for myself.
Being externally motivated is abig thing for me.
Having that internal motivationis much more challenging.
Miriam (25:07):
Well, why don't you create some external
accountability by telling yourpodcast people what you're doing
and give yourself a deadline.
It's finally very specific.
I mean, this is what I do.
I like nouns on the podcast.
Guess what?
I'm writing?
A book you know, like okay,where is it?
Steph (25:23):
I love that.
Yes, that's so important.
Miriam (25:30):
It's so important for many people people to be like I
said I was going to do thisthing and now, okay, I guess I
have to do this thing now, likethere's very few people.
If you're the only one whoknows you're going to supposed
to do it, we'll do it.
Maybe hermione granger, I don'tknow who else you know?
Liz (25:42):
yeah, I keep telling my friends, but then?
But now it's out and now it'son the internet.
So it.
Stephanie's going to make asocial media reel about it.
Steph (25:53):
That's a great point, Miriam.
When is this going to?
Liz (25:56):
happen, and how will we?
Steph (25:56):
know that it's actually a thing.
Liz (26:00):
Well, the goal is to actually put them online.
So my experiment is going to goonline.
So why don't we just say thatI'll have something within the
next six weeks.
I'll have something online?
I've been stewing about it fora very long time, so six weeks
seems reasonable.
Miriam (26:16):
Six weeks from today or six weeks from when this airs.
Liz (26:19):
How about six weeks from today, just to be super?
So it's the end of March, it'sMarch 28th, so by the end of six
weeks from now.
Miriam (26:26):
By Mother's Day, you'll give birth to some rock and roll
by mother manifesting, yes,okay.
Steph (26:32):
So, miriam, what's your spiritual take on making things
happen in your life?
Is it something that you putout into the universe, like we
just did, or how do you getyourself to?
Miriam (26:42):
the next.
I'm very spiritual and Ipretend not to be, but I tell, I
tell some people I manifestedmy husband, my daughter
manifested our cat.
Yeah, so you know there's somethings like if you look for
things in your life, you'll seethat there's more about that
than you know.
I like to pretend I'm very, youknow, miss scientific method
(27:02):
and everything, but it's notthat I pretend.
It's like sometimes I reallythink that way and then other
times I'm like no wait, there'sa lot more going on here.
And if you are open to findingand being very clear about what
you're looking for and believingthat it's there and that's
really what manifestation isabout.
It's about being willing tobelieve about what is possible
(27:27):
for you.
Liz (27:28):
Yes.
Steph (27:28):
Yeah, we get in our own way a lot of the time, and
you're familiar with this, withthe starving artist mentality.
And where do you find thebelief in yourself, in your art,
in order to put yourself?
Miriam (27:42):
out there.
Great question.
So what I talk about is thebelief triad.
So I do hear a lot ofself-development gurus.
They talk about what you said,Steph, the belief in yourself,
belief in your art.
But the third part of thattriad is belief in the buyer,
the customer, the audience,whatever you want to put in for
that third part of the triad,and the best way I can
(28:04):
illustrate this is in the moviePretty Woman, when Julia Roberts
.
she's still dressed like ahooker, but she's got Richard
Gere's gold card and she's goingdown to Rodeo Drive and the
mean salespeople won't wait onher because they don't believe
in her and we all think thatwe're not the mean salespeople.
But we are, because how manytimes are we thinking, oh, she
(28:27):
won't pay that for my musicclass, and we think we're not
being mean.
But you're not believing in theother person, you're not
believing in the audience.
Oh, they won't like it if I dorock and roll.
I'm classically trained, yeah,so you're not believing in the
audience.
So it's that third part, thatthat's what really sabotages
most people.
Liz (28:46):
Immediately.
Think of multiple exampleswhere that's true.
For me and, I think, for peoplein our discipline in general, I
think that's very true.
So that's really interesting.
And also, if you want somethingreally nice and woo-woo, to tie
together your scientific methodand your manifestation.
One of my favorite pieces ofinformation that I've learned
and of course this is not this,is not new information, but that
(29:09):
in science, what we'vediscovered is that every piece
of matter is all made up of thesame particles, right, which
means that everything isconnected.
No matter which approach youtake, whether it's scientific or
it's spiritual, everything'sconnected.
And so if you're trying thingsout through the scientific
method, you are manifestingright.
(29:29):
You're putting things out thereand seeing what comes back, and
so I love that so much becausethere's room for both, and I
think a good balance of the twois really that's the way forward
more than anything else.
Steph (29:42):
That's so good, yeah, so let's say, you have a belief in
yourself, a belief in yourproduct, a belief in your
audience, and you need to marketyourself.
Now, right, you need to getyourself out there into the
world.
There's an incredible sectionon your book about prospecting,
about how to get in front of theright people, and one thing
(30:03):
that we all have in common nowis social media, right, so
there's some advantages to thatway of getting yourself out
there, but there's other ways todo it as well.
So could you talk about how youcoach your clients to get their
art in front of people and whatare some of the benefits, the
pros and cons of social media,the pros and cons of the other
ways that you talk about?
Miriam (30:23):
So many things we can unpack right now.
Liz (30:26):
I know, I know.
Miriam (30:28):
So there's that myth that is put out there that you
just have to post on socialmedia and it makes it really
easy and introverts love thatidea that they can just post
things on social media andpeople will find you and you
know the art sells itself andyou know it's really, that's
what people are thinking.
And then the gurus who chargeoodles of money to teach you how
(30:50):
to build these followings onthe social media they're the
ones who's pushing this myth.
So I did research for the bookbecause my my first draft of the
book the publishers were.
The editor who was assigned tomy book was really upset with me
.
They're like well, you reallydidn't talk about social media.
I think that's because you'rein your 50s and you're old
fashioned.
I was like crying, by the way,with this editor.
Steph (31:11):
I was like oh my God.
Miriam (31:13):
But then Once I dried my eyes, I was like the problem
with my book was not that Ididn't talk enough about it, but
I didn't make a strong enoughcase about why it's not
effective, because it isn'tbecause I'm old fashioned.
The old fashioned way is tothink that you can just rely on
this.
So let me share the numbers.
The numbers.
(31:34):
The numbers don't lie even ifyou're woke, Because the numbers
don't lie even if you're woke.
Yes, yes, the averageengagement rate on Instagram and
I did update this.
It's still pretty much the samefor 2023, 2024.
The average rate for a personan engagement rate is 0.6%.
(31:56):
Not 6%, not 60% 0.6.
What does that mean?
If you have a thousand peoplefollowing you, six people will
engage with what you're doing onaverage.
So you can think well, maybe Ineed to learn better techniques
for engaging so I'm not averageanymore.
The average engagement rate foran influencer.
(32:18):
An influencer is a pro.
Liz (32:21):
Someone who does it full time A pro 1.2%, 1.2.
Miriam (32:27):
So out of their thousand followers, 12 people.
So what about email Email?
So the average open rate onemail is 24%.
So if you have a hundred peopleI don't even talk about 1000s
anymore you have 100 people onyour email list, you would have
24 people engaging with you.
To get the same exact result onInstagram, you would need 4000
(32:50):
followers, which is why it'smuch easier to build an audience
and make money from thataudience when you build an email
list rather than a social mediafollowing.
I'm not saying don't do socialmedia, but it's a lot harder.
Liz (33:05):
Yeah, Can we go further down this rabbit hole?
So emails 24% engagement.
Miriam (33:12):
Open rate Open rate.
So that means they will seewhat it is you're talking about.
Liz (33:16):
Yeah, that's right.
That's right.
And I mean, I know from anotherbusiness I run that once we
started consistently writing andsending emails advertising our
performances, we sold moretickets.
We sell more tickets.
We just do.
It's actually you know, I havefirsthand experience with this
which is great.
In the world of sales.
There's this whole otheruniverse of networking and I'm
(33:40):
curious to know how that ties in, because if you have this much
you can expect from your emails,then when it comes to in-person
engagement or showing up, howdo you increase that exposure in
that way?
Or do you have suggestions forthat?
Because I know it's difficultfor us to envision, probably as
musicians like what that mightlook like.
(34:00):
I always think on a gig we'renetworking, no matter what, with
everybody we work with, but Idon't know.
Are there other avenues to takethat offer you even more?
Miriam (34:09):
Right here what we're doing today.
So, there's three ways that youcan build your audience.
So the first is your universe.
Your universe is your socialmedia, your, if you do blogs, if
you go in person, any, anyplace that you interact with
people in your world.
That's what we talked aboutthose warm people that you're
(34:30):
already in front of.
The second way, which I thinkhas the most opportunity,
because people do not takeadvantage of this, is free
publicity.
So the first part is youruniverse.
These are other people'suniverses.
This is earned press and theartists who do it, and artists,
visual artists as well asmusicians.
(34:52):
When you take advantage of this, this is a huge opportunity to
introduce yourself to a newaudience while building
credibility for yourself.
So it's not just who gets whosees it in your local paper, but
now that is part of yourportfolio of as seen on.
and then the third way is paidpress, so in other words
(35:14):
advertising.
So those are the three ways tobuild your audience.
Steph (35:18):
Yeah, those are great ways like for us as a podcast,
even, you know to go out andfind publications, find someone
who's going to do a story onyour next concert or you know,
like press contacts, things likethis.
Yeah, I love that, and I don'tthink enough people I don't
think enough people think thatwhat they're offering is good
enough to go out and do that.
I think that's where the bighandicap is for many people.
Miriam (35:40):
Totally that and also circle back to what we were
talking about before.
When they do go out to pitchthemselves their aye-aye instead
of thinking about how is thisinteresting, so it's not the
what and the how, becausethey'll write all about the what
and the how.
Steph (35:57):
It's who and?
Miriam (35:58):
why and that's what makes the most interesting
stories for the press is who areyou doing this for and why does
it matter?
Your art matters art, music,theater.
It matters more than any othertime when you have these
existential crises.
This is when people need art,they need music.
(36:19):
This is, this is the who andthe why.
This is the sacred part that'sgoing to help them make sense of
things, and they need it.
And right now with AI lookinglike it's going to take over the
world and you can stream anymusic you want for $9.99 a month
.
Who's making the most money?
Taylor Swift has like billionsof dollars, and why is that,
(36:39):
when you can stream it all forfree?
Because people want the realthing.
Steph (36:43):
Yes, Yep, they want to go to the concert.
Yep, yeah, they, they want it.
That's so powerful.
That's so powerful and youdeserve to be paid for it too.
Yeah, there's this wonderfulquote that is in your book that
this just reminded me of thatwhen you were talking with
Denise Duffield Thomas, and shesays why should art and beauty
be so cheap that we burnourselves out creating it for
(37:05):
people?
You know that at the root ofthis is the belief in yourself
that you are providing somethingthat is valuable to other
people and that without that,you can't go out and sell
yourself to anyone.
Liz (37:17):
Yeah, it's really true and I think it happens in so many
little micro ways along thecourse of a career because
you're so dedicated to the artthat you're willing to take
whatever you can get withoutrecognizing maybe early on that
you you can assign that valuefor yourself and you can decide.
You know this is worth a lot.
(37:38):
Actually I've been, I've beentoying recently with.
I still get emails sometimesfrom people that I used to work
for for far less per service wecall it per service in our world
than I do now.
I would never say yes again andI'm really graceful.
I just kind of write great, youknow, I write back with
gratitude and I say thank you somuch, but I'm not available and
part of me recently.
(37:59):
I got one recently and Ithought I feel like there's a
respectful way for me to justsay thank you so much.
But like my expectation is thatyou know I get paid X amount
per service now and nothing less.
Miriam (38:11):
Well, yeah, I mean like for some reason, this is what
you were saying earlier aboutthe education for other people
is like they think we'll do itfor exposure and us artists, we
can dive over exposure.
And this doesn't happen in anyother industry, like you would
never say to your plumber youknow what?
You should give me a deal onthis because, well, we'll just
hang a sign over my toilet thatsays you did the work because
(38:33):
because there's a lot of peoplewho use my toilet.
You would never do that.
So it's like why should we dothings for free for exposure?
We don't need exposure.
Liz (38:43):
Right To create it for ourselves.
Steph (38:45):
Well, it's hard to like us in the in the music industry.
There's all these singersongwriters on tick tock that
are doing this for free.
Miriam (38:52):
Let them it's gonna be banned soon anyway, yeah, well,
yeah.
Steph (38:55):
So change that to whatever you want Instagram,
Facebook, whatever that's onsocial media these days but I
think it kind of perpetuates theidea that we'll do it for free.
You can get this art for free.
Miriam (39:06):
Well, you can, but that doesn't stop people from buying
spending a lot of money on it.
My husband has a tremendouslylarge and expensive vinyl
collection.
People like investing in thingslike that.
We already talked about theTaylor Swift concert.
People want the real thing, soit doesn't matter if they can
(39:28):
get it for free on TikTokSitting at your phone.
That's not the experience.
That's not sacred.
There's nothing sacred aboutlooking at my phone.
Steph (39:37):
It's the community and it's being with other people.
That's what makes concertexperiences so moving.
Liz (39:43):
Yes, and in our world as freelancers, whatever that might
look like let's say it's asinger, songwriter trying to
make this work it's findingthose other doors.
It's finding, like, okay, youknow, if I just try to do this
on social media, I'm just goingto be like another voice in the
crowd.
But if I find, if I find theright people in the right place,
the who, if I find the who,then I have something marketable
(40:06):
.
You know it's, it's that'sreally interesting, amazing.
Steph (40:08):
Yeah, so many great points oh and.
I'll say that for any anyartist, musicians included, the
your book art print is worth aread.
It's not only hilarious andmoving, it's very informative,
and this is stuff that we don'tlearn in music school and I bet
that a lot of artists don'tlearn.
That's why it's so valuable.
That's why you wrote it.
Miriam (40:28):
I mean, I wrote it for me of 20 years ago.
This is like I basicallytalking to my past self, but
many, many selves out there whoneed, who needed this voice.
Liz (40:38):
Yeah, it's, that's really beautiful and and you also
started doing a podcast on thesetopics kind of before it was
like hugely, hugely, hugelypopular.
I feel like you were a littleahead of the curve.
I don't know, at least in theart world or in the artist world
, because we, you know, asmusicians, yeah, these
(41:00):
conversations relate so much,like all of the topics that you
discuss on your podcast as well,just so helpful and inspiring,
which is literally the title ofthe podcast.
So it's really refreshing tospeak with someone who has this
understanding, maybe in adifferent discipline, but
there's so much we can relate toand so that's so great and I
(41:22):
think our audience is going tolove it too.
Steph (41:24):
So for all those folks that love what they heard here
today, like we did.
Where can they find you?
What other things do you have?
Well, if you like what youheard today.
Miriam (41:33):
This was good Kool-Aid.
I have more of that at theInspiration Place.
It's on every podcast app andmy book, artpreneur, is
available in Barnes Noble Amazon, and I have some freebies for
you.
If you head on over toartpreneurbookcom, you'll see
(41:53):
the bonus package that you canget for ordering the book.
Steph (41:58):
Awesome, nice, I haven't checked it out yet.
You don't have to order thebook through me.
Miriam (42:01):
If you order it someplace else, whether it's an
indie bookstore, just let usknow.
You can email us a picture ofyou holding the book.
We don't.
Steph (42:08):
I love it.
That's right Low tech I got itfrom the library.
Miriam (42:11):
That's fine, too Accessible.
Steph (42:12):
We don't care, but you also offer coaching as well.
Miriam (42:16):
Those who want to take it to the next level, I have the
artist incubator.
The lessons I teach in the bookare for everybody.
My coaching program is gearedmore towards visual artists, but
visual artists of all kindsdigital photography, painting,
ceramicist macrame, et cetera,et cetera.
So you can learn about that onmy website or just by listening
(42:36):
to the podcast.
Amazing.
Steph (42:37):
Great Well.
Thanks so much for making timefor us today this has been
really inspiring.
Miriam (42:42):
Thanks for having me.
It was such a fun conversation.
Liz (42:47):
Thank you so much for listening today.
If you loved this episode,consider writing us a five star
review on Apple Podcasts, amazonMusic, spotify or wherever you
listen.
Steph (42:57):
Thanks also to our season sponsor, Potter Violins.
Liz (43:00):
If you'd like to support the podcast and get access to
bonus content, consider joiningour Patreon community.
Steph (43:06):
You can buy all your musician-centric merch,
including shirts, water bottles,koozies and a variety of other
fun items.
Liz (43:14):
Our theme music was written and produced by JP Wogeman and
is performed by Steph and myself.
Steph (43:19):
Our episodes are produced by Liz O'Hara and edited by
Emily McMahon.
Liz (43:23):
Thanks again for listening.
Let's talk soon.
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