February 23, 2024 • 28 mins
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Ever wondered how to carve out a successful career in music, with or without the classical repertoire? That Viola Kid, Drew Ford, rejoins us to unravel the secrets of thriving as an "extra classical musician" in today's dynamic industry. We start off with a little Valentine's Day banter and a nod to the eerie allure of "True Detective," but the real heart of our conversation is Drew's savvy advice for musicians navigating the economic challenges and opportunities of the modern landscape. Whether you're a musician feeling the pinch or a music lover curious about the industry's inner workings, you're in for a treat!
Drew doesn't shy away from the tough topics—we're talking hard numbers and the stark financial realities for those in the classical music trenches. We talk about knowing your worth and the art of negotiation for better compensation, while also serving up some fresh takes on personal branding and direct audience engagement. If you're itching to connect with your fans on a deeper level or to navigate the music industry with finesse, tune in for strategies that hit all the right notes.
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Mentioned in this episode:
Drew's newsletter, Grace Notes: https://thatviolakid.com/gracenotes
wholesoul, a string quartet with attitude: https://www.wholesoulmusic.com/
************************
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Did you have a nice Valentine's Day?
Yeah, it was really nothinghappened.
This is married life for youguys.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
The most romantic thing I've done this week around
Valentine's Day is startwatching the new true detective
season Whoa that is romantic,take notes.
Are you watching it?
No, oh, my goodness, is it good?
It's so creepy.
Yes, OK.
So, far so good, I'm onlyhalfway through the second
episode right now, but it's alldone now.
(00:28):
They're all done.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
Oh, so you can binge it If anybody wants to see Scary
Creepy Gore.
Oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
You know there's time and place.
There is a time and place andit takes place in Alaska, at the
tip of the Arctic Circle, wherethey have basically this period
of time for almost two weeks,where it's like the sun doesn't
rise, it's just dark.
So a lot of people kind of goin a little nutty.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
Yeah, yeah, as would I.
That makes sense.
Yeah, if I could didn't see thesun for a while.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
Yeah, so far I'm in and I'm like who chooses to live
here?
Speaker 1 (01:02):
Why do people live here?
Speaker 2 (01:04):
That's a really good question, there's so many other
places to live If you're inAlaska or the North North, let
us know.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
Do you think Liz Hill has an?
Speaker 2 (01:11):
answer to this.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
Maybe she's from Alaska.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
Yeah, should ask her.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
Alaska Heights.
Alaskans, you have to Alaska.
I think Alaska Heights better.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
I do too.
Ok, do it for the record.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
Welcome to the Musician-Centric podcast.
We are two freelance violistsliving and laughing our way
through conversations thatexplore what it means to be a
professional musician in today'sworld.
I'm Steph.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
And I'm Liz, and we're so glad you've joined us.
Let's dive in.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
I'm watching this completely different thing
called Platonic.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
Ooh, oh, yes, that's right On Apple.
You're telling me about this.
Oh my god, it's so funny.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
Seth Rogen and Rose.
What's her name?
Burn?
Speaker 2 (01:59):
Burn From like their neighbors' days.
Oh, I don't remember that movieyeah they were married couple
and they were.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
OK, they are really funny together.
They are.
This show is really funny.
I highly recommend.
It's not for children.
But SFLC yes not suitable forchildren.
What's the premise?
So they were best friends backin college and they've since
parted ways and she became a mom.
(02:28):
She has three kids.
She's married to this lawyerguy.
She's, like you know, verysuburbia and he became a
brewmaster and opened up a brewpub, and so he's like kind of
not failure to launch, but likea man child.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
That's also so millennial.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
Yes, so, yes.
So the premise is that they'renow 40 years old, they come back
together and they're fastfriends again and they're going
through life like helping eachother through these moments and
it's hilarious.
I will definitely check thatout.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
They're just really funny.
I will definitely.
That is like the antidote totrue detective.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
Oh my god, yes, it makes you, it makes my husband
and I laugh out loud.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
Very lovely.
I love it.
So we talked with Drew.
We had Drew back.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
Drew has been back and we were really thinking
about this really seriously,like who can we bring back from
our earlier seasons?
That has new stuff going on,and I will tell you this about
Drew he always has new stuffgoing on.
This guy is always pivoting,he's always shifting, he's got
his finger on the pulse of themusic industry and he's always
(03:36):
inventing a new path.
So you, he was a natural choice.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
Yeah, I mean, he's so thoughtful and I think it's
part says the things that needto be said, but it's also just
kind of like drawing conclusionsfrom outside places that he can
relate to our industry and justmakes a lot of sense.
Like he just makes a lot ofsense with these things he's
discovered and, I think, struckor excited about the fact that
(04:02):
we had this conversation thelast time he was on about money,
like essentially about thevalue of money, and that when
you create things, you basicallycreate new value and new value
brings money.
And it just blew my mind and itwas this seed that then I kind
of have been just growing withever since that conversation.
It really stuck with me and hewas blogging back then and he
(04:25):
had written a really eloquentblog about that whole concept.
And then here we are two yearslater, a little over two years
later, and he's got this.
He's taking it next level,basically right, he's just like
taking that concept and sayingwe need to use this to our
advantage, this concept that,like everybody has something new
and creative, becauseeverybody's voice is different,
and how can you specializeyourself in a way that you can
(04:48):
be there for everybody?
In other words, the extraclassical musician which, again,
he blogged so brilliantly about.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
Yep, he's got great pointers for musicians that are
up and coming and that are takenstraight from the business
world.
So what skills do you need nowas a musician in order to carve
your own path?
And so he talks about those.
He talks about his extraclassical musician idea, like
you mentioned, so I think you'rereally going to dig this.
So let us know what you think.
(05:15):
Yeah, and enjoy part one ofthis conversation with Drew Ford
.
Speaker 2 (05:23):
Located in a historic mansion in Tacoma Park,
maryland, you might get theimpression that the team at
Potter violins are as formal asthe breathtaking building that
they work in, but when you goinside instead, you'll find the
most relatable, skilled andfriendly staff.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
Yes, the people at Potters are what really make it
a special place.
I love visiting because I knowthat whoever I work with is not
going to make me feel like I'mcrazy or just being picky.
They're kind of like yourfavorite bartender.
They're great listeners whogive you what you need without
judgment.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
Yes, their technicians are not only super
talented, creative andresourceful, they take the time
to collaborate with you so thatthe process of getting your
instrument at its best reallyfeels like a partnership.
Speaker 1 (06:03):
So if you're in the area, definitely stop by and
introduce yourself to Chris, robKimberly, derek Jim, melissa
and the whole team, or visitPotterViolinscom to find what
you need online.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
It's so fitting, then , that their shop is in this
beautiful old house, because thestaff at Potter's really makes
it feel like home.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
Drew Alexander Ford, known online as that viola kid,
has a reputation not only as anaccomplished performer, but also
as one of classical music'smost recognizable personalities.
Drew was called the Future ofOur Field by Sphinx Organization
president Afa Dworkin, and asthe creator of hip hop string
quartet Whole Soul, Drew aims toexpand the limits of string
(06:45):
playing, Highly sought after inpopular music.
Drew has shared the stage withA-list stars like Adele, Alicia
Keys and Earth, Wind and Fire,among many others.
Recording viola for theBeatles' final song, now and
then, is the crowningachievement of Drew's budding
recording career.
When he's not on the concertstage or in the recording studio
, Drew shares hisentrepreneurial experiences with
(07:06):
students from institutions likeHarvard, MIT, Cleveland
Institute, the Juilliard School,and he's served as a consultant
and presenter for a range oforganizations, from local
not-for-profits to Fortune 500companies.
And in addition to all this, hehas the distinction of being
the very first repeat guest onour podcast.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
So add that Isn't that your crowning achievement?
Speaker 3 (07:27):
Let's go the top, that's the top yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
I'm changing it now.
Speaker 3 (07:30):
Oh, you're the sweetest, change it now I'm
going to tell my publicist.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
Welcome back.
I'm going to tell the publicistWelcome back.
We're so thrilled.
Speaker 3 (07:36):
Thanks for having me Thank you, Steph.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
So what inspired us asking you back other than that
you're just an awesome, amazingguest is that we saw your
sub-stack article on the futureof classical music and the hot
takes abound, the mostprovocative being that there's
no money in classical music.
So I loved that headline.
I mean, I thought that wastotally clickable, totally
(07:59):
relatable to what we're allgoing through right now, and I
wondered if you could just tellus about how you came to write
this article and what it meansto you.
Speaker 3 (08:08):
It's something that, you know, I felt when I was back
at Juilliard.
I would be called to go to astudio and I'm like, yeah, I'm a
Juilliard grad student, youknow.
It's not like there are a bunchof them lying around, you know,
maybe in a marketplace thatwould afford me a livable wage.
But that really was not thecase, especially when it came
(08:28):
into playing classical music andI just didn't really understand
.
I was like I thought, in orderto make a living, I just had to
be good at my instrument.
But while I was at Juilliard Istarted listening to other
podcasts and started gettinginformation from other sources
like Planet Money andFreakonomics Radio and how stuff
works.
And I started just listening toa lot of podcasts and learning
(08:49):
about economics, learning aboutthe world in general and trying
to understand where doesclassical music fit in?
Like the machine of the globaleconomy, how does it fit?
And I got to tell you it'sreally tiny.
Yeah, if you haven't seen thischart go on Drew's.
Speaker 1 (09:07):
Instagram or join his sub-stack and there's a chart
on there about the little pieceof the pie that classical music
earns digitally.
Speaker 3 (09:15):
It's a Nielsen report .
Nielsen does a lot of marketresearch and they were tackling
in this 2019 report.
They were tackling music andthe gross revenue from sales of
digital physical sales andstreaming of music by genre, and
classical music was dead lastat like 1%, less than 1% in many
(09:40):
categories.
Yeah, so if we are fighting andI think I saw somewhere this
was weeks ago, so my numbers alittle fuzzy but we're talking
maybe low nine figures worth oflike we're talking hundreds of
millions of dollars total likerevenue generated in the whole
world for classical music, andso there are a lot more than
(10:01):
like a million maybe not a lotmore, but there's probably like
a million classical musicianswho are trying to get to
anyone's time across the world.
Right, so do we all earn $100?
Is that really the market cap?
Is that overall worth 100 bucks?
You know all of the years thatwe've put together so I was like
, okay, why is nobody talkingabout that?
(10:21):
Why are we still encouragingstudents to go get student debt
to then enter a market wherethey're not even equipped to
extract any value or collect anyvalue for their hard work so
they can eat?
You know, that's the math,wasn't math thing?
Speaker 1 (10:37):
for me, so I had to write about it.
Yeah, it's something that we'reall, Liz and I, have been
talking about.
I mean, we're freelancers inthe Washington DC area and we're
busy, Like we're playing withorchestras, we're teaching,
we're doing recording, when wecan playing all different genres
of music, playing stringquartet jobs you know, playing
pop string quartet jobs too butif we're at the kind of the top
(10:58):
of our field here in the DC areaand we're not making those,
we're not making really a living.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
I've had this crazy thing circulating in my brain
since December, which sort ofwas the impetus for this
conversation, where I had beenbusting my butt from September
to December and I was all overthe place and I'd overworked
myself and I rescheduled myself,which is a recurring theme in
my life that I've always workingon.
However, I think I hit abreaking point because it was so
(11:25):
burnt out and I was playing ajob in December that I typically
like to play, but I wasfrustrated over certain
logistical things that werehappening that happen every year
and they still haven't beenfixed.
And I'm in my head like whyisn't anybody figured this out
yet?
You know, like I figured it out, how is no one else figured it
out?
And I was sitting there and I'mlike am I going to do this job
(11:46):
for the rest of my life, likethis?
Is it?
As far as like being afreelance classical musician in
DC goes, we're at the peakpretty much.
And what I've been reallyinterested in too, which is
related to this article and thisconversation keeps coming up in
various ways, is that okay?
So we've, like escalatedourselves to this peak, you know
, in demand for a freelancer inthe DC area, sawed after Sawed
(12:10):
after we're super sought after.
It doesn't translate to moremoney.
It doesn't mean you're going tomake a better living.
It just means you have areputation of being able to
perform at a certain level andso that like works within your
community, but it still doesn'ttranslate to more dollars.
In fact, in some ways, whenyou're considered in demand,
(12:31):
then there are certainopportunities that won't be
offered to you because theyassume you're not available,
right?
So there's like that wholething which is so fascinating.
I don't really worry about that,but it's so funny because I was
just literally scrollingthrough Instagram before we got
on and I saw this littleorchestra had like one of its
first performances here.
It's like a startup orchestraand it was all these like young
(12:51):
kids who are probably just outof school, like University of
Maryland and our variousuniversities around here, and
the way they were describing theorganization.
I was like, oh, this isfamiliar because I was part of
these groups when I was in myearly 20s too, and we're all
just trying to do the same thingand it's like not increasing
our value, which it's huge, likeit's such a crazy thing.
(13:14):
Such a crazy thing.
Anyway, yeah, lots of thoughtsabout that.
Speaker 3 (13:17):
I think it's really, it's unfortunate.
I think it's a multi-prongedissue.
I think many people don'tunderstand our work.
They think, well, that's areally nice hobby, that's like
super cool.
I mean, you joined orchestra,you know, at 12 years old, 10
years old, and you just stuckwith it.
I really wish I had stuck withit, but you know what.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
I'm glad you're doing it.
Speaker 3 (13:38):
Good for you here's 20 bucks, it's like oh, good for
you, man.
Oh, will you babysit my kidplease for $50 an hour and teach
him the intricacies of bowtechnique?
So it is a marketing problem onour behalf, because we often
you know it always comes back tounionizing Like unfortunately,
(13:58):
we have so many people who aredesperate to make any money,
desperate for any visibility,desperate for any you know
notoriety, because that's whatmatters more to them, or matters
more to you when you leaveschool.
Speaker 2 (14:09):
You're just like I just want to be seen doing the
thing.
Because, like I had everybodytell me that it was a joke.
I'm going to start up anorchestra with my friends and
we're all going to make $50 forthe weekend, but it's our
passion and everyone will see usdoing it.
Yes.
Speaker 3 (14:20):
Yep.
But the economics is a truecase of us going into this field
not understanding business, notunderstanding negotiation, not
understanding value, exchange,leverage, not understanding our
real function in society, whichis marketing.
Music is not, it's a productkind of, but we make other
things sexy, we give soul toideas.
(14:40):
So because we don't understandour true power and our true
impact, we don't reallynegotiate.
In many cases in the classicalmusic sphere, we don't negotiate
to our own benefit.
But if you go outside ofclassical music, when you're
talking about the broader musicindustry, you've got sync
licensing, you've gotdistribution deals, you've got
(15:00):
the ability to put your stuff onalbums.
You can write, you can compose,you can collect royalties for
certain recordings with certaincontracts which you have to
negotiate those contracts.
You have to see that if mymusic's going to be played for a
million people, do I reallyneed to take this buyout or is a
rev share way more interesting?
Speaker 1 (15:17):
Yeah, these are just things that most of us have no
idea what this world is.
So how did you start learningabout it?
How did you start realizingyour worth and what the value of
marketing?
Speaker 3 (15:29):
Well, I stopped listening to classical musicians
.
Speaker 1 (15:32):
Who were giving you advice.
Speaker 3 (15:34):
It's like what, yeah, who are giving me advice on
what to do?
I just started looking to peoplewho seemed to be making a lot
more money in music and they'renot classical musicians, they're
producers, they're writers,they're songwriters, and so when
you understand those economicmodels, it makes a lot more
sense.
Like labels yes, they put up alot of the production value,
(15:56):
they put up a lot of marketingand distribution, they use their
relationships to get your artin front of eyeballs, but then
they take a cut of everything,depending on the deal, right
when we're all out here playingthe game of earned income, we're
not thinking about ownership,we're not thinking about earning
residual income because we haveequity in a certain venture.
So I think, just understandingthose business principles
(16:20):
ownership over wages it's a hugemultiplier in leverage and I
think that people will have adifferent experience of this
economy if they really kind ofunderstand that.
But that being said, we alsohave to take into account that
we are also fighting a commoditygame.
Like just playing a stringinstrument, it's not enough
leverage to really ask for moremoney if you don't have a brand
(16:41):
associated with it, because ifthey just need a violinist or if
they just need a cellist andthen you're too expensive.
They're just going to go asksomebody who's going to play it
for much less.
So we collectively have tounderstand like, look, if I'm
taking this gig for $50 in pizza, that means they think they're
going to think that's what we'reall worth moving forward.
So we have to have aconversation amongst ourselves
(17:02):
too.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
Yes, that's a quote in the article.
Gone are the days of theanonymous, anti-social string
player and here, here, I'm likeall about that.
I'm like, yes, every singleperson that we share a stage
with has their own voice, Likethey have something in them that
makes them separate from theother person sitting on stage
(17:24):
with them, and we just are notencouraged to think that way
when we're trained in theorchestral world and there's a
lot of us doing the work, Like Iwould say there's a lot of us
doing the work to try to get tothis point, but it's still the
minority of the group of us, thedemographic of classical string
players out there.
But it's funny because I wastelling Stephanie, I was excited
(17:47):
to talk with you about thisbecause the last time we talked,
you were the first person thatI really understood the concept
of money being a thing that canbe created when something has
value.
My mantra for this entire yearis that my energy is actually my
most valuable currency.
That just because I'm gonna getpaid $1,000 to do this job
(18:07):
doesn't mean it's the rightdirection for me to go.
It's because if it's takingaway my ability to express
myself or to do something that'sauthentic with my own energy,
then it's probably actuallygonna drain more than just my
bank account.
I had to play around with thisa little bit and it's a scary
concept for a lot of people towrap their heads around, but it
is 100% true.
(18:27):
Last year I was offered a gigthat I used to do that did not
pay me enough and I had leftbecause it didn't pay enough.
And when I got asked to comeback, I said sure, but here's
what I'm gonna need.
And they said, okay.
Speaker 3 (18:39):
I love that.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
Okay, sounds good.
That's great.
We'll pay you that much.
What do we gotta do to keep you?
Speaker 3 (18:44):
And you were no longer a commodity, because you
knew your value.
You asked for and they werelike, okay, we're gonna meet you
there.
Speaker 2 (18:49):
Thanks, but it takes practice Absolutely.
That's amazing Entrepreneurialskills.
Most people don't feel theyhave the agency to speak like
that when they get a job offerright.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
So it's a longer game too.
It's not like the day to day.
Am I gonna be able to pay mybills?
Am I maintaining my reputationin this by saying yes, but it's
the long game of what is mybrand.
Like you said, drew, what do Iwanna be seen as known as?
What do people perceive whenthey hear my name?
Speaker 3 (19:16):
And I get asked by kids like when do you know when
to ask for more money, and I'mlike I tell them you'll know.
But like, honestly, it's whenyou feel like that, Liz, it's
like I don't wanna do that, Ireally don't wanna do that.
You're gonna have to pay methis, Otherwise I'd rather stay
in my bunny slippers.
I love that so much, eat someice cream, you know.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
Like that's a litmus test.
Speaker 3 (19:36):
That's when you know when you've had enough and like
you don't feel like that whenyou leave school You'll do
anything.
You're just so excited to bethere.
Speaker 2 (19:44):
But then when you, it's Groundhog Day and you're
like man, I'm working reallyhard, I'm tired and my bank
account is still empty and theywant me to show up anyway, right
, yeah, and I wonder like howthis, how has this thread
progressed over generations,like we all, everybody who's
been in this field or in thiscareer field before us, has
(20:06):
gotten to that point wherethey're like, yeah, I'm not
gonna do this anymore, this is acrap job and I'm not gonna do
it.
But how are we approaching itin a way that's different, and I
think that's the question,cause that then helps shape what
the next generation of musicianwill expect for themselves
getting out of school, right.
Speaker 3 (20:23):
Yeah, we needed to relay the mission.
I literally I had thisconversation at the Grammys 2020
with a Woodwind player friendof mine and she was telling me a
similar thing.
She was like yo, I like I gottago teach like four students
after this.
I was like are you serious?
Speaker 1 (20:40):
She's like I'm killing myself.
Speaker 3 (20:41):
I know it's January, but yeah, she's like I gotta
teach couple couple students forlike $40.
I was like, look, highschoolers need gigs too.
And she and her brain exploded.
She was like, whoa, I neverthought about it like that.
It's true, you don't.
If you're taking every gig thatcomes your way, you're also
taking it from people who areprobably gonna appreciate it
more, who the money is gonnatotally be worth it for, and
(21:05):
you're giving up the opportunitycost of spending your time
doing something else that couldpossibly be more highly
leveraged, so you can get onthat path of retirement and
financial freedom.
Speaker 1 (21:14):
And I love that too, because it creates.
It creates the opportunity forother things to come and fill it
.
But it's hard to let go of.
You know, like creating spacein your schedule, creating space
in your mind.
It allows these otheropportunities and the
opportunity to be creativeyourself.
You can't do that if you'rerunning here and there and
everywhere.
(21:34):
You can't have ideas, like youknow, sub-stacks in your blog.
I don't even know how you do it, because I know for a fact that
you are busy and you are allover the place.
So where does all this likecreativeness?
Where do you make space forthat?
Speaker 3 (21:46):
I think it was Duke Ellington.
He got asked a similar question.
He said I gave most creative inthe deadline and for me, I used
to make weekly and for time,daily YouTube videos, and that
was at a time where I was notworking.
Okay, this was right.
After Juilliard, I was notgetting.
The only money that was cominginto my bank account was
(22:06):
teaching a four year old whocouldn't speak English yet and
playing in the subways for likeor five hours.
60 bucks that's like food for acouple of days.
You know what I mean.
So I'm treading water.
Treading water and desperate tomake anything happen so that I,
like, didn't regret, you know,going into such crazy debt.
So during that time, I was likeI got to do something.
(22:27):
I got to do something.
Now I am very busy providingvalue for clients, recording,
performing, not as much teaching.
So I was like man, I can't evencultivate this brand that I've
built.
I can't keep creating content.
What is the smallest thing thatI could do that would have the
most power?
And I'd been doing research foryears because social media
algorithms were really startingto piss me off.
(22:50):
I'm spending hours to like, makea piece of Instagram content
and it shows it to 3% of myaudience and I thought it was a
good piece of content, but it'snot exactly what the first of
all, the audience wants to seeat that moment.
The audiences tastes are alwayschanging and therefore the
algorithm is always changing, sothat is stuff I can't control.
So I realized, oh, this is good, it's good to have a big
(23:10):
following and have a brand, butI don't own this audience.
How can I have a better, closer, more direct relationship with
my audience?
I'd learned about creating anemail newsletter and just the
multiplicative power of havingan email newsletter, and so I
was like well, maybe I can writea three minute, three to five
minute piece of content everyweek, release it on Friday and
(23:33):
try to provide value, updatepeople on what I'm doing for now
, so I can start.
You know, maybe having morecontrol over the audience, so I
can let you know what I'm doing,shows I can let you know when I
do drop a YouTube video andit's not algorithmically.
I'm not relying on the algorithm.
It's people that want to see it, because that's what following
is supposed to be about seeingwhat you want to see from people
(23:53):
that you want to see it from.
So that's why I started GraceNotes, and started it back in
October last year.
It's February.
I'm five weeks.
I'm on a five week streak.
It's going to be week six whenI drop on Friday, and I'm really
excited to keep it going.
Speaker 1 (24:08):
Well, this makes me think of so these are skills
that you have cultivated overyour career.
You read a lot.
You also write a lot, so theseare skills that, like a
multifaceted musician needs tohave.
And I didn't mention this inyour bio, but there's another
self coin term that you callyourself like an extra classical
(24:30):
musician, right, yes, and whendid you?
How did you realize that thatwas something that needed
distinguishing?
Speaker 3 (24:37):
I think that there have been other words to
describe the type of work that Ido before.
A lot of people refer to it ascrossover.
You know people who are likethey might have played classical
music or they may not have, butthey just do other genres.
But it always comes with apejorative.
It's like wow, they couldn'tcut it in classical, they
couldn't really make it happen.
(24:57):
I'm like who can?
Speaker 2 (24:58):
Who's making it happen?
Speaker 3 (25:00):
We've already established this who's making it
happen on.
I literally was looking throughthe this is a sidebar the AFM,
the American Federation ofMusicians.
I got the newsletter, like themagazine today.
I was looking at the differentauditions.
There's an audition for SectionViola for the Louisiana
Orchestra, $25,000.
(25:21):
Week For a 36 week.
I'm so sorry I spend more ofthat on rent.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
Maybe not if you move to Louisiana, though.
Speaker 3 (25:30):
That's not even going to cover it for me, even if you
move to Louisiana.
Who's living on $25,000?
That's 100% true.
And then San Francisco thesection's like $110,000 for San
Francisco, san Francisco Opera.
I have friends who live in SanFrancisco and say, if you're
making less than 200, yourpoverty.
So what are we doing, guys?
(25:50):
So when I hear people havingconversations about you know you
couldn't make it in classicalmusic, I'm like yeah, so is that
my problem or is that just asymptom of the economics?
And so I feel like there's aneed for a new word, because one
thing with branding andmarketing is that words have
power, and when you occupy aword in the mind of a consumer,
(26:12):
you have so much more leverage.
And so I was like let's createa new word, extra classical.
It's classical plus.
You can play classical music,but you also understand the
nuances of other genres and canfind ways to provide value as a
string player to other genres,because just playing the string
instrument does not add value toother genres.
You have to play it the rightway, and if you play it
(26:33):
classical, you can make it soundcringy, you may sound hokey and
authentic and like you don'treally care about anything other
than classical music, and Ithink that's a really bad brand
that we built for ourselves, andI think it's time to move
beyond that.
And it's not just the playing.
I think entrepreneurship is ahuge component of it.
I think being able to stackunrelated skills on top of your
(26:57):
classical chops is critical.
So it's about skill stacking,it's about thinking outside the
box, it's about creating yourown path.
Speaker 2 (27:04):
It's so good.
Thank you so much for listeningtoday.
If you loved this episode,consider writing us a five star
review on Apple podcasts, amazonmusic, spotify or wherever you
listen.
Speaker 1 (27:16):
Thanks also to our season sponsor, potter Violence.
Speaker 2 (27:19):
If you'd like to support the podcast and get
access to bonus content,consider joining our Patreon
community.
Speaker 1 (27:25):
You can buy all your music and centric merch,
including shirts, water bottles,koozies and a variety of other
fun items.
Speaker 2 (27:33):
Our theme music was written and produced by JP
Wogerman and is performed byStefan myself.
Speaker 1 (27:39):
Our episodes are produced by Liz O'Hara and
edited by Emily McMahon.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
Thanks again for listening.
Let's talk soon.
Speaker 1 (27:48):
Thanks for listening today.
This has been part one of ourconversation with Drew Ford, so
make sure that you stay tunedfor part two coming in a couple
of days.
Did you have a nice Valentine's Day?
Yeah, it was really nothinghappened.
This is married life for youguys.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
The most romantic thing I've done this week around
Valentine's Day is startwatching the new true detective
season Whoa that is romantic,take notes.
Are you watching it?
No, oh, my goodness, is it good?
It's so creepy.
Yes, OK.
So, far so good, I'm onlyhalfway through the second
episode right now, but it's alldone now.
(00:28):
They're all done.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
Oh, so you can binge it If anybody wants to see Scary
Creepy Gore.
Oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
You know there's time and place.
There is a time and place andit takes place in Alaska, at the
tip of the Arctic Circle, wherethey have basically this period
of time for almost two weeks,where it's like the sun doesn't
rise, it's just dark.
So a lot of people kind of goin a little nutty.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
Yeah, yeah, as would I.
That makes sense.
Yeah, if I could didn't see thesun for a while.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
Yeah, so far I'm in and I'm like who chooses to live
here?
Speaker 1 (01:02):
Why do people live here?
Speaker 2 (01:04):
That's a really good question, there's so many other
places to live If you're inAlaska or the North North, let
us know.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
Do you think Liz Hill has an?
Speaker 2 (01:11):
answer to this.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
Maybe she's from Alaska.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
Yeah, should ask her.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
Alaska Heights.
Alaskans, you have to Alaska.
I think Alaska Heights better.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
I do too.
Ok, do it for the record.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
Welcome to the Musician-Centric podcast.
We are two freelance violistsliving and laughing our way
through conversations thatexplore what it means to be a
professional musician in today'sworld.
I'm Steph.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
And I'm Liz, and we're so glad you've joined us.
Let's dive in.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
I'm watching this completely different thing
called Platonic.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
Ooh, oh, yes, that's right On Apple.
You're telling me about this.
Oh my god, it's so funny.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
Seth Rogen and Rose.
What's her name?
Burn?
Speaker 2 (01:59):
Burn From like their neighbors' days.
Oh, I don't remember that movieyeah they were married couple
and they were.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
OK, they are really funny together.
They are.
This show is really funny.
I highly recommend.
It's not for children.
But SFLC yes not suitable forchildren.
What's the premise?
So they were best friends backin college and they've since
parted ways and she became a mom.
(02:28):
She has three kids.
She's married to this lawyerguy.
She's, like you know, verysuburbia and he became a
brewmaster and opened up a brewpub, and so he's like kind of
not failure to launch, but likea man child.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
That's also so millennial.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
Yes, so, yes.
So the premise is that they'renow 40 years old, they come back
together and they're fastfriends again and they're going
through life like helping eachother through these moments and
it's hilarious.
I will definitely check thatout.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
They're just really funny.
I will definitely.
That is like the antidote totrue detective.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
Oh my god, yes, it makes you, it makes my husband
and I laugh out loud.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
Very lovely.
I love it.
So we talked with Drew.
We had Drew back.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
Drew has been back and we were really thinking
about this really seriously,like who can we bring back from
our earlier seasons?
That has new stuff going on,and I will tell you this about
Drew he always has new stuffgoing on.
This guy is always pivoting,he's always shifting, he's got
his finger on the pulse of themusic industry and he's always
(03:36):
inventing a new path.
So you, he was a natural choice.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
Yeah, I mean, he's so thoughtful and I think it's
part says the things that needto be said, but it's also just
kind of like drawing conclusionsfrom outside places that he can
relate to our industry and justmakes a lot of sense.
Like he just makes a lot ofsense with these things he's
discovered and, I think, struckor excited about the fact that
(04:02):
we had this conversation thelast time he was on about money,
like essentially about thevalue of money, and that when
you create things, you basicallycreate new value and new value
brings money.
And it just blew my mind and itwas this seed that then I kind
of have been just growing withever since that conversation.
It really stuck with me and hewas blogging back then and he
(04:25):
had written a really eloquentblog about that whole concept.
And then here we are two yearslater, a little over two years
later, and he's got this.
He's taking it next level,basically right, he's just like
taking that concept and sayingwe need to use this to our
advantage, this concept that,like everybody has something new
and creative, becauseeverybody's voice is different,
and how can you specializeyourself in a way that you can
(04:48):
be there for everybody?
In other words, the extraclassical musician which, again,
he blogged so brilliantly about.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
Yep, he's got great pointers for musicians that are
up and coming and that are takenstraight from the business
world.
So what skills do you need nowas a musician in order to carve
your own path?
And so he talks about those.
He talks about his extraclassical musician idea, like
you mentioned, so I think you'rereally going to dig this.
So let us know what you think.
(05:15):
Yeah, and enjoy part one ofthis conversation with Drew Ford
.
Speaker 2 (05:23):
Located in a historic mansion in Tacoma Park,
maryland, you might get theimpression that the team at
Potter violins are as formal asthe breathtaking building that
they work in, but when you goinside instead, you'll find the
most relatable, skilled andfriendly staff.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
Yes, the people at Potters are what really make it
a special place.
I love visiting because I knowthat whoever I work with is not
going to make me feel like I'mcrazy or just being picky.
They're kind of like yourfavorite bartender.
They're great listeners whogive you what you need without
judgment.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
Yes, their technicians are not only super
talented, creative andresourceful, they take the time
to collaborate with you so thatthe process of getting your
instrument at its best reallyfeels like a partnership.
Speaker 1 (06:03):
So if you're in the area, definitely stop by and
introduce yourself to Chris, robKimberly, derek Jim, melissa
and the whole team, or visitPotterViolinscom to find what
you need online.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
It's so fitting, then , that their shop is in this
beautiful old house, because thestaff at Potter's really makes
it feel like home.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
Drew Alexander Ford, known online as that viola kid,
has a reputation not only as anaccomplished performer, but also
as one of classical music'smost recognizable personalities.
Drew was called the Future ofOur Field by Sphinx Organization
president Afa Dworkin, and asthe creator of hip hop string
quartet Whole Soul, Drew aims toexpand the limits of string
(06:45):
playing, Highly sought after inpopular music.
Drew has shared the stage withA-list stars like Adele, Alicia
Keys and Earth, Wind and Fire,among many others.
Recording viola for theBeatles' final song, now and
then, is the crowningachievement of Drew's budding
recording career.
When he's not on the concertstage or in the recording studio
, Drew shares hisentrepreneurial experiences with
(07:06):
students from institutions likeHarvard, MIT, Cleveland
Institute, the Juilliard School,and he's served as a consultant
and presenter for a range oforganizations, from local
not-for-profits to Fortune 500companies.
And in addition to all this, hehas the distinction of being
the very first repeat guest onour podcast.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
So add that Isn't that your crowning achievement?
Speaker 3 (07:27):
Let's go the top, that's the top yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
I'm changing it now.
Speaker 3 (07:30):
Oh, you're the sweetest, change it now I'm
going to tell my publicist.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
Welcome back.
I'm going to tell the publicistWelcome back.
We're so thrilled.
Speaker 3 (07:36):
Thanks for having me Thank you, Steph.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
So what inspired us asking you back other than that
you're just an awesome, amazingguest is that we saw your
sub-stack article on the futureof classical music and the hot
takes abound, the mostprovocative being that there's
no money in classical music.
So I loved that headline.
I mean, I thought that wastotally clickable, totally
(07:59):
relatable to what we're allgoing through right now, and I
wondered if you could just tellus about how you came to write
this article and what it meansto you.
Speaker 3 (08:08):
It's something that, you know, I felt when I was back
at Juilliard.
I would be called to go to astudio and I'm like, yeah, I'm a
Juilliard grad student, youknow.
It's not like there are a bunchof them lying around, you know,
maybe in a marketplace thatwould afford me a livable wage.
But that really was not thecase, especially when it came
(08:28):
into playing classical music andI just didn't really understand
.
I was like I thought, in orderto make a living, I just had to
be good at my instrument.
But while I was at Juilliard Istarted listening to other
podcasts and started gettinginformation from other sources
like Planet Money andFreakonomics Radio and how stuff
works.
And I started just listening toa lot of podcasts and learning
(08:49):
about economics, learning aboutthe world in general and trying
to understand where doesclassical music fit in?
Like the machine of the globaleconomy, how does it fit?
And I got to tell you it'sreally tiny.
Yeah, if you haven't seen thischart go on Drew's.
Speaker 1 (09:07):
Instagram or join his sub-stack and there's a chart
on there about the little pieceof the pie that classical music
earns digitally.
Speaker 3 (09:15):
It's a Nielsen report .
Nielsen does a lot of marketresearch and they were tackling
in this 2019 report.
They were tackling music andthe gross revenue from sales of
digital physical sales andstreaming of music by genre, and
classical music was dead lastat like 1%, less than 1% in many
(09:40):
categories.
Yeah, so if we are fighting andI think I saw somewhere this
was weeks ago, so my numbers alittle fuzzy but we're talking
maybe low nine figures worth oflike we're talking hundreds of
millions of dollars total likerevenue generated in the whole
world for classical music, andso there are a lot more than
(10:01):
like a million maybe not a lotmore, but there's probably like
a million classical musicianswho are trying to get to
anyone's time across the world.
Right, so do we all earn $100?
Is that really the market cap?
Is that overall worth 100 bucks?
You know all of the years thatwe've put together so I was like
, okay, why is nobody talkingabout that?
(10:21):
Why are we still encouragingstudents to go get student debt
to then enter a market wherethey're not even equipped to
extract any value or collect anyvalue for their hard work so
they can eat?
You know, that's the math,wasn't math thing?
Speaker 1 (10:37):
for me, so I had to write about it.
Yeah, it's something that we'reall, Liz and I, have been
talking about.
I mean, we're freelancers inthe Washington DC area and we're
busy, Like we're playing withorchestras, we're teaching,
we're doing recording, when wecan playing all different genres
of music, playing stringquartet jobs you know, playing
pop string quartet jobs too butif we're at the kind of the top
(10:58):
of our field here in the DC areaand we're not making those,
we're not making really a living.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
I've had this crazy thing circulating in my brain
since December, which sort ofwas the impetus for this
conversation, where I had beenbusting my butt from September
to December and I was all overthe place and I'd overworked
myself and I rescheduled myself,which is a recurring theme in
my life that I've always workingon.
However, I think I hit abreaking point because it was so
(11:25):
burnt out and I was playing ajob in December that I typically
like to play, but I wasfrustrated over certain
logistical things that werehappening that happen every year
and they still haven't beenfixed.
And I'm in my head like whyisn't anybody figured this out
yet?
You know, like I figured it out, how is no one else figured it
out?
And I was sitting there and I'mlike am I going to do this job
(11:46):
for the rest of my life, likethis?
Is it?
As far as like being afreelance classical musician in
DC goes, we're at the peakpretty much.
And what I've been reallyinterested in too, which is
related to this article and thisconversation keeps coming up in
various ways, is that okay?
So we've, like escalatedourselves to this peak, you know
, in demand for a freelancer inthe DC area, sawed after Sawed
(12:10):
after we're super sought after.
It doesn't translate to moremoney.
It doesn't mean you're going tomake a better living.
It just means you have areputation of being able to
perform at a certain level andso that like works within your
community, but it still doesn'ttranslate to more dollars.
In fact, in some ways, whenyou're considered in demand,
(12:31):
then there are certainopportunities that won't be
offered to you because theyassume you're not available,
right?
So there's like that wholething which is so fascinating.
I don't really worry about that,but it's so funny because I was
just literally scrollingthrough Instagram before we got
on and I saw this littleorchestra had like one of its
first performances here.
It's like a startup orchestraand it was all these like young
(12:51):
kids who are probably just outof school, like University of
Maryland and our variousuniversities around here, and
the way they were describing theorganization.
I was like, oh, this isfamiliar because I was part of
these groups when I was in myearly 20s too, and we're all
just trying to do the same thingand it's like not increasing
our value, which it's huge, likeit's such a crazy thing.
(13:14):
Such a crazy thing.
Anyway, yeah, lots of thoughtsabout that.
Speaker 3 (13:17):
I think it's really, it's unfortunate.
I think it's a multi-prongedissue.
I think many people don'tunderstand our work.
They think, well, that's areally nice hobby, that's like
super cool.
I mean, you joined orchestra,you know, at 12 years old, 10
years old, and you just stuckwith it.
I really wish I had stuck withit, but you know what.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
I'm glad you're doing it.
Speaker 3 (13:38):
Good for you here's 20 bucks, it's like oh, good for
you, man.
Oh, will you babysit my kidplease for $50 an hour and teach
him the intricacies of bowtechnique?
So it is a marketing problem onour behalf, because we often
you know it always comes back tounionizing Like unfortunately,
(13:58):
we have so many people who aredesperate to make any money,
desperate for any visibility,desperate for any you know
notoriety, because that's whatmatters more to them, or matters
more to you when you leaveschool.
Speaker 2 (14:09):
You're just like I just want to be seen doing the
thing.
Because, like I had everybodytell me that it was a joke.
I'm going to start up anorchestra with my friends and
we're all going to make $50 forthe weekend, but it's our
passion and everyone will see usdoing it.
Yes.
Speaker 3 (14:20):
Yep.
But the economics is a truecase of us going into this field
not understanding business, notunderstanding negotiation, not
understanding value, exchange,leverage, not understanding our
real function in society, whichis marketing.
Music is not, it's a productkind of, but we make other
things sexy, we give soul toideas.
(14:40):
So because we don't understandour true power and our true
impact, we don't reallynegotiate.
In many cases in the classicalmusic sphere, we don't negotiate
to our own benefit.
But if you go outside ofclassical music, when you're
talking about the broader musicindustry, you've got sync
licensing, you've gotdistribution deals, you've got
(15:00):
the ability to put your stuff onalbums.
You can write, you can compose,you can collect royalties for
certain recordings with certaincontracts which you have to
negotiate those contracts.
You have to see that if mymusic's going to be played for a
million people, do I reallyneed to take this buyout or is a
rev share way more interesting?
Speaker 1 (15:17):
Yeah, these are just things that most of us have no
idea what this world is.
So how did you start learningabout it?
How did you start realizingyour worth and what the value of
marketing?
Speaker 3 (15:29):
Well, I stopped listening to classical musicians
.
Speaker 1 (15:32):
Who were giving you advice.
Speaker 3 (15:34):
It's like what, yeah, who are giving me advice on
what to do?
I just started looking to peoplewho seemed to be making a lot
more money in music and they'renot classical musicians, they're
producers, they're writers,they're songwriters, and so when
you understand those economicmodels, it makes a lot more
sense.
Like labels yes, they put up alot of the production value,
(15:56):
they put up a lot of marketingand distribution, they use their
relationships to get your artin front of eyeballs, but then
they take a cut of everything,depending on the deal, right
when we're all out here playingthe game of earned income, we're
not thinking about ownership,we're not thinking about earning
residual income because we haveequity in a certain venture.
So I think, just understandingthose business principles
(16:20):
ownership over wages it's a hugemultiplier in leverage and I
think that people will have adifferent experience of this
economy if they really kind ofunderstand that.
But that being said, we alsohave to take into account that
we are also fighting a commoditygame.
Like just playing a stringinstrument, it's not enough
leverage to really ask for moremoney if you don't have a brand
(16:41):
associated with it, because ifthey just need a violinist or if
they just need a cellist andthen you're too expensive.
They're just going to go asksomebody who's going to play it
for much less.
So we collectively have tounderstand like, look, if I'm
taking this gig for $50 in pizza, that means they think they're
going to think that's what we'reall worth moving forward.
So we have to have aconversation amongst ourselves
(17:02):
too.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
Yes, that's a quote in the article.
Gone are the days of theanonymous, anti-social string
player and here, here, I'm likeall about that.
I'm like, yes, every singleperson that we share a stage
with has their own voice, Likethey have something in them that
makes them separate from theother person sitting on stage
(17:24):
with them, and we just are notencouraged to think that way
when we're trained in theorchestral world and there's a
lot of us doing the work, Like Iwould say there's a lot of us
doing the work to try to get tothis point, but it's still the
minority of the group of us, thedemographic of classical string
players out there.
But it's funny because I wastelling Stephanie, I was excited
(17:47):
to talk with you about thisbecause the last time we talked,
you were the first person thatI really understood the concept
of money being a thing that canbe created when something has
value.
My mantra for this entire yearis that my energy is actually my
most valuable currency.
That just because I'm gonna getpaid $1,000 to do this job
(18:07):
doesn't mean it's the rightdirection for me to go.
It's because if it's takingaway my ability to express
myself or to do something that'sauthentic with my own energy,
then it's probably actuallygonna drain more than just my
bank account.
I had to play around with thisa little bit and it's a scary
concept for a lot of people towrap their heads around, but it
is 100% true.
(18:27):
Last year I was offered a gigthat I used to do that did not
pay me enough and I had leftbecause it didn't pay enough.
And when I got asked to comeback, I said sure, but here's
what I'm gonna need.
And they said, okay.
Speaker 3 (18:39):
I love that.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
Okay, sounds good.
That's great.
We'll pay you that much.
What do we gotta do to keep you?
Speaker 3 (18:44):
And you were no longer a commodity, because you
knew your value.
You asked for and they werelike, okay, we're gonna meet you
there.
Speaker 2 (18:49):
Thanks, but it takes practice Absolutely.
That's amazing Entrepreneurialskills.
Most people don't feel theyhave the agency to speak like
that when they get a job offerright.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
So it's a longer game too.
It's not like the day to day.
Am I gonna be able to pay mybills?
Am I maintaining my reputationin this by saying yes, but it's
the long game of what is mybrand.
Like you said, drew, what do Iwanna be seen as known as?
What do people perceive whenthey hear my name?
Speaker 3 (19:16):
And I get asked by kids like when do you know when
to ask for more money, and I'mlike I tell them you'll know.
But like, honestly, it's whenyou feel like that, Liz, it's
like I don't wanna do that, Ireally don't wanna do that.
You're gonna have to pay methis, Otherwise I'd rather stay
in my bunny slippers.
I love that so much, eat someice cream, you know.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
Like that's a litmus test.
Speaker 3 (19:36):
That's when you know when you've had enough and like
you don't feel like that whenyou leave school You'll do
anything.
You're just so excited to bethere.
Speaker 2 (19:44):
But then when you, it's Groundhog Day and you're
like man, I'm working reallyhard, I'm tired and my bank
account is still empty and theywant me to show up anyway, right
, yeah, and I wonder like howthis, how has this thread
progressed over generations,like we all, everybody who's
been in this field or in thiscareer field before us, has
(20:06):
gotten to that point wherethey're like, yeah, I'm not
gonna do this anymore, this is acrap job and I'm not gonna do
it.
But how are we approaching itin a way that's different, and I
think that's the question,cause that then helps shape what
the next generation of musicianwill expect for themselves
getting out of school, right.
Speaker 3 (20:23):
Yeah, we needed to relay the mission.
I literally I had thisconversation at the Grammys 2020
with a Woodwind player friendof mine and she was telling me a
similar thing.
She was like yo, I like I gottago teach like four students
after this.
I was like are you serious?
Speaker 1 (20:40):
She's like I'm killing myself.
Speaker 3 (20:41):
I know it's January, but yeah, she's like I gotta
teach couple couple students forlike $40.
I was like, look, highschoolers need gigs too.
And she and her brain exploded.
She was like, whoa, I neverthought about it like that.
It's true, you don't.
If you're taking every gig thatcomes your way, you're also
taking it from people who areprobably gonna appreciate it
more, who the money is gonnatotally be worth it for, and
(21:05):
you're giving up the opportunitycost of spending your time
doing something else that couldpossibly be more highly
leveraged, so you can get onthat path of retirement and
financial freedom.
Speaker 1 (21:14):
And I love that too, because it creates.
It creates the opportunity forother things to come and fill it
.
But it's hard to let go of.
You know, like creating spacein your schedule, creating space
in your mind.
It allows these otheropportunities and the
opportunity to be creativeyourself.
You can't do that if you'rerunning here and there and
everywhere.
(21:34):
You can't have ideas, like youknow, sub-stacks in your blog.
I don't even know how you do it, because I know for a fact that
you are busy and you are allover the place.
So where does all this likecreativeness?
Where do you make space forthat?
Speaker 3 (21:46):
I think it was Duke Ellington.
He got asked a similar question.
He said I gave most creative inthe deadline and for me, I used
to make weekly and for time,daily YouTube videos, and that
was at a time where I was notworking.
Okay, this was right.
After Juilliard, I was notgetting.
The only money that was cominginto my bank account was
(22:06):
teaching a four year old whocouldn't speak English yet and
playing in the subways for likeor five hours.
60 bucks that's like food for acouple of days.
You know what I mean.
So I'm treading water.
Treading water and desperate tomake anything happen so that I,
like, didn't regret, you know,going into such crazy debt.
So during that time, I was likeI got to do something.
(22:27):
I got to do something.
Now I am very busy providingvalue for clients, recording,
performing, not as much teaching.
So I was like man, I can't evencultivate this brand that I've
built.
I can't keep creating content.
What is the smallest thing thatI could do that would have the
most power?
And I'd been doing research foryears because social media
algorithms were really startingto piss me off.
(22:50):
I'm spending hours to like, makea piece of Instagram content
and it shows it to 3% of myaudience and I thought it was a
good piece of content, but it'snot exactly what the first of
all, the audience wants to seeat that moment.
The audiences tastes are alwayschanging and therefore the
algorithm is always changing, sothat is stuff I can't control.
So I realized, oh, this is good, it's good to have a big
(23:10):
following and have a brand, butI don't own this audience.
How can I have a better, closer, more direct relationship with
my audience?
I'd learned about creating anemail newsletter and just the
multiplicative power of havingan email newsletter, and so I
was like well, maybe I can writea three minute, three to five
minute piece of content everyweek, release it on Friday and
(23:33):
try to provide value, updatepeople on what I'm doing for now
, so I can start.
You know, maybe having morecontrol over the audience, so I
can let you know what I'm doing,shows I can let you know when I
do drop a YouTube video andit's not algorithmically.
I'm not relying on the algorithm.
It's people that want to see it, because that's what following
is supposed to be about seeingwhat you want to see from people
(23:53):
that you want to see it from.
So that's why I started GraceNotes, and started it back in
October last year.
It's February.
I'm five weeks.
I'm on a five week streak.
It's going to be week six whenI drop on Friday, and I'm really
excited to keep it going.
Speaker 1 (24:08):
Well, this makes me think of so these are skills
that you have cultivated overyour career.
You read a lot.
You also write a lot, so theseare skills that, like a
multifaceted musician needs tohave.
And I didn't mention this inyour bio, but there's another
self coin term that you callyourself like an extra classical
(24:30):
musician, right, yes, and whendid you?
How did you realize that thatwas something that needed
distinguishing?
Speaker 3 (24:37):
I think that there have been other words to
describe the type of work that Ido before.
A lot of people refer to it ascrossover.
You know people who are likethey might have played classical
music or they may not have, butthey just do other genres.
But it always comes with apejorative.
It's like wow, they couldn'tcut it in classical, they
couldn't really make it happen.
(24:57):
I'm like who can?
Speaker 2 (24:58):
Who's making it happen?
Speaker 3 (25:00):
We've already established this who's making it
happen on.
I literally was looking throughthe this is a sidebar the AFM,
the American Federation ofMusicians.
I got the newsletter, like themagazine today.
I was looking at the differentauditions.
There's an audition for SectionViola for the Louisiana
Orchestra, $25,000.
(25:21):
Week For a 36 week.
I'm so sorry I spend more ofthat on rent.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
Maybe not if you move to Louisiana, though.
Speaker 3 (25:30):
That's not even going to cover it for me, even if you
move to Louisiana.
Who's living on $25,000?
That's 100% true.
And then San Francisco thesection's like $110,000 for San
Francisco, san Francisco Opera.
I have friends who live in SanFrancisco and say, if you're
making less than 200, yourpoverty.
So what are we doing, guys?
(25:50):
So when I hear people havingconversations about you know you
couldn't make it in classicalmusic, I'm like yeah, so is that
my problem or is that just asymptom of the economics?
And so I feel like there's aneed for a new word, because one
thing with branding andmarketing is that words have
power, and when you occupy aword in the mind of a consumer,
(26:12):
you have so much more leverage.
And so I was like let's createa new word, extra classical.
It's classical plus.
You can play classical music,but you also understand the
nuances of other genres and canfind ways to provide value as a
string player to other genres,because just playing the string
instrument does not add value toother genres.
You have to play it the rightway, and if you play it
(26:33):
classical, you can make it soundcringy, you may sound hokey and
authentic and like you don'treally care about anything other
than classical music, and Ithink that's a really bad brand
that we built for ourselves, andI think it's time to move
beyond that.
And it's not just the playing.
I think entrepreneurship is ahuge component of it.
I think being able to stackunrelated skills on top of your
(26:57):
classical chops is critical.
So it's about skill stacking,it's about thinking outside the
box, it's about creating yourown path.
Speaker 2 (27:04):
It's so good.
Thank you so much for listeningtoday.
If you loved this episode,consider writing us a five star
review on Apple podcasts, amazonmusic, spotify or wherever you
listen.
Speaker 1 (27:16):
Thanks also to our season sponsor, potter Violence.
Speaker 2 (27:19):
If you'd like to support the podcast and get
access to bonus content,consider joining our Patreon
community.
Speaker 1 (27:25):
You can buy all your music and centric merch,
including shirts, water bottles,koozies and a variety of other
fun items.
Speaker 2 (27:33):
Our theme music was written and produced by JP
Wogerman and is performed byStefan myself.
Speaker 1 (27:39):
Our episodes are produced by Liz O'Hara and
edited by Emily McMahon.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
Thanks again for listening.
Let's talk soon.
Speaker 1 (27:48):
Thanks for listening today.
This has been part one of ourconversation with Drew Ford, so
make sure that you stay tunedfor part two coming in a couple
of days.
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