February 26, 2024 • 25 mins
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**This is Part 2 of our conversation with Drew. Be sure to look for Part 1 in our feed to hear the whole glorious episode!
Ever wondered how to carve out a successful career in music, with or without the classical repertoire? That Viola Kid, Drew Ford, rejoins us to unravel the secrets of thriving as an “Extra-Classical Musician" in today's dynamic indtry. We start off with a little Valentine's Day banter and a nod to the eerie allure of "True Detective," but the real heart of our conversation is Drew's savvy advice for musicians navigating the economic challenges and opportunities of the modern landscape. Whether you're a musician feeling the pinch or a music lover curious about the industry's inner workings, you're in for a treat!
Drew doesn't shy away from the tough topics—we're talking hard numbers and the stark financial realities for those in the classical music trenches. We talk about knowing your worth and the art of negotiation for better compensation, while also serving up some fresh takes on personal branding and direct audience engagement. If you're itching to connect with your fans on a deeper level or to navigate the music industry with finesse, tune in for strategies that hit all the right notes.
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Mentioned in this episode:
Drew's newsletter, Grace Notes: https://thatviolakid.com/gracenotes
wholesoul, a string quartet with attitude: https://www.wholesoulmusic.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey everybody, this is part two of our conversation
with Drew Ford.
If you haven't caught part oneyet, make sure you go back and
listen to that.
But otherwise, thanks forjoining us for part two of this
conversation with Drew Ford.
Welcome to the Musician-CentricPodcast.
We are two freelance violistsliving and laughing our way
(00:22):
through conversations thatexplore what it means to be a
professional musician in today'sworld.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
I'm Steph and I'm Liz and we're so glad you've joined
us.
Let's dive in, as you'redescribing, this whole crossover
connotation, the culture ofthat sentiment that you couldn't
make it.
That sentiment is perpetuatedby all the people who aren't
(00:49):
making it.
Like you said, none of us aremaking it and we all perpetuate
that sentiment at an early ageand I had that belief within
myself for a while.
But the truth is my ability toplay classical music is better
because I don't only playclassical music anymore.
That is 100% true or my skillset.
(01:13):
I use this example when I talkto students about quartet music,
because my quartet likes toplay music by living composers
and we do so at least one pieceon every program we perform, and
it's a different vibe.
There's different skills thatare needed than are needed to
play a Mendelssohn quartet, andwhen we first started out, all
we wanted to do was play likeMendelssohn and Beethoven and
(01:35):
all this stuff, and we're likeyou know.
We're never going to be able tofind a place in the market with
this.
We're fine at it, but we're notparticularly great at it.
It's just like something wewere trained to do.
Now, when we go back last year,we did a commission and then we
played Mendelssohn and we tiedthe whole program together and
it was all cultivated in thisway.
But when we played that quartet, I listened back to the
(01:56):
recording I'm like, oh my God,we're 100% freer as musicians
playing Mendelssohn than we werefive years ago, not pushing
ourselves to play this othermusic that's different and has
its own place right now in themusical community, and I think
that's so true.
Even just like you mentioned inthe extra classical article
skills that musicians need to beextra classical, and one of the
(02:19):
things you mentioned is improv,and we've talked actually quite
a bit this year about improvand those kinds of skills I can
only imagine that they make youan infinitely better classical
musician because you have anunderstanding of the music that
wasn't there if you don't havethat skill right.
Speaker 3 (02:32):
It's so true I can't play classical music now without
thinking, oh man, so since weviolas are playing the major
seventh, we should probably be alittle stronger, because it
creates that tension against thetonic.
Or if we're playing the minorthird, we need to make sure that
we also are present.
So the minor mode really soundslike just understanding the
(02:53):
theory of it.
It's like so critical but notclassical music theory.
Jazz theory.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
Is that something that you were trained in, jess?
No, okay, so tell us about howthat evolved.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
Hey, YouTube can be a great teacher.
Speaker 3 (03:08):
I am a student of YouTube.
I'm a student of YouTube, so Iwatch a lot of musicians on
YouTube who are not stringplayers.
I don't watch any stringplayers.
Actually, I watch a lot ofguitarists and pianists and how
they talk about jazz and howthey talk about improvisation.
I was just watching a video ontritone subs last night.
I was like kind of get it.
I still really don't understandit.
(03:31):
It's just so divorced from whatwe do here.
So now I'm like I go back in apractice and I'm like oh, these
are tritone shapes, oh, this isa major seventh shape, chordal
shape.
And then when I play Bach, I'mrealizing oh, if I just write
jazz theory with Bach, I totallyunderstand what's going on.
So if you look at my manuscriptnow, I've just got like oh,
this is a B7, that goes to an E7, that goes to a D diminished,
(03:55):
that goes back to E major.
Oh, there we go.
That's what he meant.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
Like find a Neapolitan every once in a while
.
Speaker 3 (04:04):
Oh, yeah, Neapolitan.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
Yeah, exactly, it's a flat two.
Speaker 3 (04:09):
No, it just means nothing when it's divorced from
the playing, and I think thatthe way we're taught in the
classical realm is like here istheory, you're going to do your
shinkiering analysis and you'regoing to write down the chord
shapes away from your instrument.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
rather, than the two.
And then there's instrumentaltechnique and like the two are
totally separate from each other.
That is really true.
It's crazy.
Speaker 3 (04:30):
We have to be more.
We're so siloed I think that'sthe conclusion we are so
particularly siloed andspecialized that we're actually
blind, and I think that if wekind of like remove the blinders
a little bit, we really seekthe context a little bit more
and it makes us more powerful.
Maybe we're not Ray Chen orAugustine Hadelich or or Hillary
Haan or Yodemah or AlyssaWilderstein, maybe we're not
(04:52):
there, but that doesn't meanwe're not valid and we can't
really make beautiful music.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
So you're going into a lot of these educational
organizations and talking withstudents.
Is that what you end up doingwhen you go to these places?
Speaker 3 (05:06):
I've been over the past decade of making content.
I will get periodically invitedto go give talks at schools
about entrepreneurship or aboutjust my perspective of being a
professional musician, and justtry to tell kids the truth.
I'm not trying to like, oh,what's going to be great, you're
just going to make so muchmoney once you win your audition
(05:26):
, that's not you got to.
Or if you get that, you getyour DMA and you go teach.
You get a ten year position atan institution to teach other
people just like you.
You have to do exactly whatyou're doing right now.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
Well, I'm curious about what the students who are
coming out of music schools thatyou're encountering these days.
Do you feel like it's changing?
You feel like some of this isgetting through?
Speaker 3 (05:44):
depends on the school , depends on the school.
The conversations that I haveat Pepperdine University and the
Juilliard School are verydifferent, like still to this
day.
I'll talk to Juilliard kids andI will say something very
simply.
You need to look at your musicas a product.
I know art is art and selfexpression, yes, but it is also
a product because people consumeit.
And I had a little hand raisedfrom the back of the back of the
(06:07):
room and it was violinist andshe was like but doesn't that
make the art?
Doesn't that tarnish the art?
Doesn't it make it less pure?
And I'm like and I literallyjust responded to her, I was
like how does thinking about howpeople will receive it make it
less pure?
What's wrong with making thingsthat other people might want to
listen to?
Because otherwise the pleaseexcuse my language but otherwise
(06:29):
the process is masturbatory.
If you're just doing this foryou in front of other people,
that's kind of weird.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
But like you got it, yeah we've had that conversation
so many times that, like thereare often experiences we've had
on stage, like in orchestra,that feels that way, because
it's like who are we reallyconnecting with here?
You know ourselves, each otheron stage, yeah who is this for?
Who is this for?
Yeah, but that's a really validproduct.
(06:55):
Market fit.
It should be on a factsomewhere on a website of, like
how to be an entrepreneurialmusician, like.
But what happens to my art if Itry to market it?
You know, if I try to create aproduct out of it, it just
becomes a thing that people canconnect to.
Better right, like that's Ineed to make a post just giving
you newsletter ideas.
Speaker 3 (07:13):
I just I'm tired of answering that question.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
Honestly, I'm right down right now.
Speaker 3 (07:18):
I'm right.
There is something to that,though.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
I mean, when you're trying to find yourself as an
artist, you have to kind of notmake things for other people,
but, like, make what you trulybelieve in.
And there is a part of theprocess of figuring out who you
are as an artist that is justfor yourself, right, wouldn't
you agree?
Yeah, discovery, yeah, thediscovery, and then maybe the
(07:43):
figuring out how other peoplerelate to it, putting yourself
out there and then knowing thatit has value.
There is something to thecreative process that is just,
like you know, produce the art.
And that's the part of theprocess you can control, right,
Produce the art, produce the art, produce the art.
And then what you're talkingabout is the other end of it.
Okay, promote the art, marketthe art, you know.
Package the art.
Speaker 3 (08:04):
Let me be clear about what I'm advocating for Produce
the art and then, just like,before you release it, just like
, look at it again, just be like, hmm, who's this for?
Okay, is there a way that I cannot change the heart and soul
of it?
But is there a way that I can,kind of you know, chisel it down
and shape it to where, insteadof it just being my pure brain,
waves, like put it in a packagethat other people can
(08:26):
immediately hook onto and see,oh, I get what they're saying,
because if it's unintelligible,it's not effective.
Right, if it doesn't speak tosomething that's relatable, if
it doesn't speak to somethingthat we all experience as humans
, or if it doesn't, it doesn'thave to always be relatable
either.
It could be something brand new.
That's that's also valid.
I've seen art installationswhere it's like I've never
looked at the world that waybefore.
(08:47):
That's wild, but there's all.
There's always a referencepoint back to something that I
do understand, and I thinkthat's where it.
That's where things likeserialism and atonal music.
They often lose me and there'sno reason why.
I mean, there is a real reasonwhy it's used, often in horror,
so discomfort Because it's just,it's not.
Speaker 2 (09:07):
Yeah, it's so uncomfortable?
Yeah, we were talking about thebarber string quartet and how,
you know, nobody really knowsthe outside movements unless
you've played it, becausethey're so difficult to listen
to.
I mean, they're difficult tolisten to.
My quartet was like, yeah, it'sjust like nothing compared to
the middle movements and I said,well, you know, I mean,
everything has its time andplace, like that was written in
1949.
(09:28):
Yeah, I mean, what waseverybody going through at that
time?
I bet that music reallyresonates in certain ways.
However, just kind of pull itback to the initial start of
this conversation, which is thatthere is no money in classical
music.
The general population of humanbeings out there in this world
right now cannot connect to themajority of what we do, and it's
(09:50):
very difficult.
Speaker 3 (09:50):
It's because we don't tell stories.
Yeah, you can't.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
Just that's like it is.
You guys have just kind ofironed out this two prong part
of the process.
It's like discovering who youare as an artist and your voice
and what's important to you, andthen you're not done.
You're not done there.
Then there's the piece of okay,who is this for, why am I doing
(10:12):
it, what am I doing it for andwhat do I want that person to
gain from this experience thatI'm giving them?
That is a very important piecethat we don't learn how to do.
We just don't learn how to doit.
And unless you are, in and ofyourself, entrepreneurial and
you go out there and you figureit out for yourself, which a
bunch of us are trying to do,wouldn't it be nice?
That's just the standard.
Speaker 3 (10:33):
Oh, it'd be real nice .
Speaker 2 (10:35):
The standard of your career training was that.
It's very interesting.
Located in a historic mansionin Tacoma Park, Maryland, you
might get the impression thatthe team at Potter Violins are
as formal as the breathtakingbuilding that they work in, but
when you go inside instead,you'll find the most relatable,
skilled and friendly staff.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
Yes, the people at Potter's are what really make it
a special place.
I love visiting because I knowthat whoever I work with is not
going to make me feel like I'mcrazy or just being picky.
They're kind of like yourfavorite bartender.
They're great listeners whogive you what you need without
judgment.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
Yes, their technicians are not only super
talented, creative andresourceful, they take the time
to collaborate with you so thatthe process of getting your
instrument at its best reallyfeels like a partnership.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
So if you're in the area, definitely stop by and
introduce yourself to Chris, robKimberly, derek, jim, melissa
and the whole team, or visitPotterViolinscom to find what
you need online.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
It's so fitting, then , that their shop is in this
beautiful old house, because thestaff at Potter's really makes
it feel like home.
You have this follow-up article, which I feel like we've got to
mention, so I think maybe themoral of the story here is for
anybody listening to subscribeto your newsletter, because
there's some great material onhere.
Speaker 3 (11:56):
Please do We'll?
Speaker 2 (11:56):
put a link in the description.
Please do, thank you so youdiscuss the seven skills every
artist entrepreneur has andneeds to have.
Some of them are just likeintegral to business things like
networking and sales andmarketing.
I love that.
The first one you put waswriting.
It also made me go, I know.
Speaker 1 (12:21):
I'm literally like oh , no Writing.
That's why the blog page of ourwebsite is hidden right now.
Speaker 3 (12:27):
Me too.
Me too, look, I'm 32.
I've been doing social mediafor over a decade and I'm now
just starting to write, becauseI saw a video a couple months
ago that changed my world, andthe video maker was like.
He was like.
There are fundamental skillswhen it comes to creating
content on the internet and justbusiness in general.
(12:47):
Writing is one of thoseindelible concepts.
Everything is writing.
When you are trying to getinvestors or donors, you need to
write a business proposal.
You need to write a pitch deck.
If you need to get people tobuy your stuff, you need to
write ad copy.
If you need people to followyou on Instagram, you need to
write your captions.
If you want people to followyou and subscribe to your
(13:10):
YouTube channel, you need towrite your script, because it's
all about how you convey yourmessage.
If you can't convey yourmessage in a way that's
compelling and gets people tolisten, it all starts from
writing, and writing helps youcollect your thoughts and
organize them in a way thatother people can understand them
.
And if you don't develop thatskill like I haven't for so long
, like my poor girlfriend, she,half the time before I started
(13:33):
writing, she was like I don'tunderstand what you're talking
about and I was like it's in myhead, why aren't you just
reading my brain?
And I realized, oh, I'm justnot clear.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
Writing helps you get more clear about your thinking.
I'm an external processor, andso that's true for me too.
Really, a lot of times I'm like, I'm like dude.
I'm saying a thing.
How do you not understand whatI'm saying?
And then, when I write, itmakes so much more sense because
I go back and read it I'm like,oh, that didn't make any sense,
I should rephrase this, Ishould rephrase this and I
(14:02):
should.
Speaker 3 (14:02):
That was unintelligible.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
Yeah, I wonder if, oh , it's so interesting that I
know there are people who don'tfeel as comfortable with writing
.
I actually do feel I feelcomfortable with writing, but it
takes a lot of energy.
That's the problem I have withit.
It's like it takes a long timeto like I'll just dump a bunch
of stuff down and then I have togo back and re that I'm trying
(14:24):
to say and move things aroundand whatever.
But yeah, I wonder where thatskill like maybe some of us,
that skill develops out ofnecessity, though.
I get complimented on my emailwriting a lot and I'm like I
think it's just.
I think it's just because I hadto find a way to communicate
clearly, and this was theeasiest way to do it.
It's good, though.
Speaker 3 (14:44):
It's true, but it also works when you're working
as a freelancer.
If you write well, you'll buildbetter relationships with your
contractors.
They're going to want to workwith you.
If you're concise.
It's one of those skills that Isaid.
It has a compounding effect andit stacks upon other skills
that you already have, or thatyou will be developing in the
future.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
I love that you make it relatable to the people who
are coming up in today's world,because you know how informal
writing has become Like emailsare where texts once were.
Texts are like.
I mean sometimes I can't evenunderstand what someone texts is
so underrated.
There's no subject of asentence anymore.
(15:23):
It's like so informal.
Speaker 3 (15:26):
Yes, it's just emojis and gifs.
We all have that one friend,that all they do is send emojis
or gifs.
It's a reference of a reference, of a reference.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
It's the most inside of it.
But it is still important thatyou have these skills, because
this is how you're going topresent yourself in the world.
This is how you're going tomarket yourself.
I love that.
Speaker 2 (15:47):
It is.
It's really good.
Yeah, it's inspiring to mebecause I've been a little bit
stuck of like OK, where on earthdo I start?
And I don't want to gloss overtoo.
This is a really big pivot, Ithink, to hear you talk about
the social media content and thealgorithm game and how you can
use social media to build alarge audience.
(16:08):
But that audience isn'tnecessarily your audience at the
end of the day.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
You don't own it yeah .
Speaker 2 (16:13):
So how do you get your audience?
And your answer is to be morepersonal.
I mean writing a newsletter andsending it to people.
That is a very personal thing.
Not that your content onlinewas not personal Of course it is
but it's like fed through themachine as opposed to delivered
directly to the person gettingit.
Speaker 3 (16:29):
And that's what I was so excited about it, because I
really feel like my audience hasbecome pretty informal in the
last at least five years becauseI haven't really been.
I look back at my old posts andI was writing a lot of personal
stuff in my captions Because Idid it because I wanted people
to know me, I wanted people tofeel me.
But when I got a biggeraudience I found that if I don't
(16:53):
want that many people knowingsomething personal about me
because I made a post.
It was after Philando Castilewas murdered by police and I
made a post called Are you GonnaShoot Me Too?
And I got some real racist stuffin my comments that I was not
ready for at the time and it'skind of like colored my
(17:15):
perception of social media thatwere.
You know I could be me and likepeople can see me, but they see
a black man first and then theysee a violist, and then they
see me as a human, and so I'mlike I need to change the way I
communicate, and so I did for along time, but it didn't give me
the satisfaction.
So with this newsletter, Ireally am developing systems
(17:37):
where, if you subscribe to mynewsletter I haven't done it yet
, but I want to tell my storyfrom the beginning.
I want you to know who I am,the type of like my fears, my
convictions, like what I'mreally going for, so you can
like trust me and understandwhere I'm coming from, because I
think people they don't reallyfundamentally know me or my
integrity or where I come fromas a human being, and I want to
(17:58):
develop that more.
Speaker 2 (17:59):
So that's why I'm excited about the newsletter and
also, again, that observationjust goes to show that you know,
in a social media kind ofsetting, like everyone will love
you as long as you're postingthe things they want to see.
Speaker 3 (18:12):
Yes, yes, but you know, the things that are
controversial get the most eyes.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
I know, I know that's true, we know that from our
news media.
Speaker 3 (18:21):
I don't think controversy is necessarily bad,
like you guys asked me on herebecause I said there's no money
in classical music and the factthat that's a controversial take
is hilarious.
Speaker 1 (18:30):
No, you're just saying the quiet part out loud.
Yeah, that's right.
Everybody knows it's true,we're just not talking about it,
we're dancing around it andyeah like, how am I going to say
, how are we going to save thisorganization, how are we going
to save this orchestra?
Speaker 3 (18:44):
Yeah, Well, let's talk about it first.
Speaker 2 (18:47):
Let's not pretend that the house is not a fire,
let's just start, so such afascinating thing to be years
out of the shutdown of ourindustry, and that time was so
engaging and there was so much,I would say, revitalized energy
of like, okay, we could dothings differently, we can try
this, we could try that, we doall this stuff.
(19:08):
And there was all this promise.
There was all this like ideathat this promise that we're
going to do it differently andnow we're going to bring in the
big bucks, and now it's notgoing to be a struggle.
And I think we're hitting apoint this season where arts
leaders in particular andleaders of organizations and
just in general in our field arestarting to say, oh no, it's
still just the pandemic wasstill just as bad as it was
(19:31):
beforehand, even though I'mtrying everything I know right
now.
Speaker 3 (19:35):
Part of it is the economics.
Like I said, we have to learnbusiness.
We have to learn economics.
If you are a non for profitbased institution that relies on
donations, in times of higherinterest rates, in times of
economic contraction, whencompanies profit margins are
receding, they don't have toprotect their profits from Uncle
(19:56):
Sam, which means they don'thave to donate to you, which
means they have fewer money todonate anyway, which means your
salaries you can't keep them upwith inflation.
There's so many, there's somany things working against us
as artists.
We don't even realize that weare employees.
If you work for theseinstitutions that have no
bargaining power to increaseyour income, oftentimes they'll
(20:17):
just cut the size of theorchestra, and I saw this back
in 2011, 2012, 2013 with theAtlanta Symphony Orchestra, and
so, seeing this, you know, 13,12, 11 years ago I was like man,
this might not be the game.
I might need to go intobusiness for myself, because
there are too many things thatare working against us.
So we need to build more skills.
That is my thesis.
That is really when I'm goingfor it.
(20:39):
We need to build more skillsthat give us more autonomy, that
allow us to thrive in adecentralized manner away from
institutions, so that we canperform on our own terms.
Speaker 2 (20:48):
Here here Real quick you mentioned.
I just want to ask this.
You said the word unionismwants in this conversation, but
we kind of like went, we kind oflike left it.
Speaker 3 (20:57):
Yes, put that here.
Speaker 2 (20:59):
Yes, you know, in terms of how unionism impacts us
in a positive or negative way,and related to and this is this
is really what I'm getting atrelated to this concept of how
we know our value at any givenstage of our careers.
So we're talking about okay,you have a kid that is in high
school and is tutoring a studentand they're making 30 bucks an
(21:21):
hour doing it.
I'm not charging 30 bucks anhour to teach.
I'm never those days are.
I'm not sure those days everexisted, but if they did, it was
a very long time ago.
How do we get to a point wherethere's a more universal
expectation of the setting ofvalue for what it is that we do,
or is that so individualizedthat it's?
You can't quite come up with asystem Like at what point does
(21:41):
the system work against us orhas its own part to play?
Speaker 3 (21:45):
It's very complex because we're no longer working
with the global marketplace andnow the value and like the
quality varies.
You know, if you're going toBudapest, you're going to London
, you're going to Melbourne orSydney, or if you're going to
Czechoslovakia or Prague, youhave to realize like everybody
in the world is now competing torecord for movies.
(22:07):
Everybody in the world iscompeting to write strings for
big artists.
So you know, I don't thinkthere is a way to like
collectively bargain globally.
Yet I think that that is whatwould be required because you
know there will always besomebody that will take the gig
for 100 bucks.
You know there will always be aperson who they just want
exposure, right, they just wantto say that they recorded
strings for Justin Bieber tohelp them get bigger gigs and
(22:30):
maybe make money down the road.
So there always be thoseopportunities and I don't think
anyone union can can stop it.
But I'm optimistic that you know, if you build yourself a brand
that is valuable, that providesa unique value proposition to
the marketplace, you won't haveto play a commodity game.
And I think that is a trueconversation.
Are you replaceable?
(22:51):
The answer is yes.
Figure out why and fix it,because at the end of the day,
like we need to be able tocharge more than minimum wage to
be able to sustain ourselves.
And not everybody's going to beable to do it, and that's okay.
But we're all on a journey andif you're not there yet, if
you're still in the commoditytier, build your skills, build
your moat, make yourselfindispensable, and then you will
(23:12):
have very differentconversations when the time
comes.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
That's great, that's a great way to leave it
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (23:17):
Thank you, drew, this was amazing.
Speaker 1 (23:18):
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 3 (23:20):
This was so much fun Always such amazing thought
provoking my discourse that wehave here.
Speaker 1 (23:24):
It's good.
Speaker 3 (23:25):
I really enjoy speaking with you guys.
Definitely Let me know if youhave any questions or topics
that you want me to talk about.
On Grace Notes, my newsletter Idefinitely want to write this
newsletter for people like uswho are definitely we're
relieving the matrix a littlebit and we're trying to build
our own path.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
How can people subscribe to Grace Notes Drew?
Speaker 3 (23:44):
you can go to my Instagram at that viola kid.
Tap the link in my bio.
You can click join mynewsletter and put your email in
there.
Or you can go to my websitethat viola kidcom and click on
Grace Notes tab and put youremail there and you'll get a new
email every.
Speaker 2 (23:59):
Friday Everybody go, subscribe, you won't be
disappointed.
I am Thank you again, Drew.
Speaker 3 (24:04):
Thank you so much for having me guys Appreciate you.
Speaker 2 (24:08):
Thank you so much for listening today.
If you loved this episode,consider writing us a five-star
review on Apple podcasts, amazonmusic, spotify or wherever you
listen.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
Thanks also to our season sponsor, potter Violence.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
If you'd like to support the podcast and get
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Speaker 1 (24:27):
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Speaker 2 (24:35):
Our theme music was written and produced by JP
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Speaker 1 (24:40):
Our episodes are produced by Liz O'Hara and
edited by Emily McMahon.
Speaker 2 (24:45):
Thanks again for listening.
Let's talk soon.
Hey everybody, this is part two of our conversation
with Drew Ford.
If you haven't caught part oneyet, make sure you go back and
listen to that.
But otherwise, thanks forjoining us for part two of this
conversation with Drew Ford.
Welcome to the Musician-CentricPodcast.
We are two freelance violistsliving and laughing our way
(00:22):
through conversations thatexplore what it means to be a
professional musician in today'sworld.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
I'm Steph and I'm Liz and we're so glad you've joined
us.
Let's dive in, as you'redescribing, this whole crossover
connotation, the culture ofthat sentiment that you couldn't
make it.
That sentiment is perpetuatedby all the people who aren't
(00:49):
making it.
Like you said, none of us aremaking it and we all perpetuate
that sentiment at an early ageand I had that belief within
myself for a while.
But the truth is my ability toplay classical music is better
because I don't only playclassical music anymore.
That is 100% true or my skillset.
(01:13):
I use this example when I talkto students about quartet music,
because my quartet likes toplay music by living composers
and we do so at least one pieceon every program we perform, and
it's a different vibe.
There's different skills thatare needed than are needed to
play a Mendelssohn quartet, andwhen we first started out, all
we wanted to do was play likeMendelssohn and Beethoven and
(01:35):
all this stuff, and we're likeyou know.
We're never going to be able tofind a place in the market with
this.
We're fine at it, but we're notparticularly great at it.
It's just like something wewere trained to do.
Now, when we go back last year,we did a commission and then we
played Mendelssohn and we tiedthe whole program together and
it was all cultivated in thisway.
But when we played that quartet, I listened back to the
(01:56):
recording I'm like, oh my God,we're 100% freer as musicians
playing Mendelssohn than we werefive years ago, not pushing
ourselves to play this othermusic that's different and has
its own place right now in themusical community, and I think
that's so true.
Even just like you mentioned inthe extra classical article
skills that musicians need to beextra classical, and one of the
(02:19):
things you mentioned is improv,and we've talked actually quite
a bit this year about improvand those kinds of skills I can
only imagine that they make youan infinitely better classical
musician because you have anunderstanding of the music that
wasn't there if you don't havethat skill right.
Speaker 3 (02:32):
It's so true I can't play classical music now without
thinking, oh man, so since weviolas are playing the major
seventh, we should probably be alittle stronger, because it
creates that tension against thetonic.
Or if we're playing the minorthird, we need to make sure that
we also are present.
So the minor mode really soundslike just understanding the
(02:53):
theory of it.
It's like so critical but notclassical music theory.
Jazz theory.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
Is that something that you were trained in, jess?
No, okay, so tell us about howthat evolved.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
Hey, YouTube can be a great teacher.
Speaker 3 (03:08):
I am a student of YouTube.
I'm a student of YouTube, so Iwatch a lot of musicians on
YouTube who are not stringplayers.
I don't watch any stringplayers.
Actually, I watch a lot ofguitarists and pianists and how
they talk about jazz and howthey talk about improvisation.
I was just watching a video ontritone subs last night.
I was like kind of get it.
I still really don't understandit.
(03:31):
It's just so divorced from whatwe do here.
So now I'm like I go back in apractice and I'm like oh, these
are tritone shapes, oh, this isa major seventh shape, chordal
shape.
And then when I play Bach, I'mrealizing oh, if I just write
jazz theory with Bach, I totallyunderstand what's going on.
So if you look at my manuscriptnow, I've just got like oh,
this is a B7, that goes to an E7, that goes to a D diminished,
(03:55):
that goes back to E major.
Oh, there we go.
That's what he meant.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
Like find a Neapolitan every once in a while
.
Speaker 3 (04:04):
Oh, yeah, Neapolitan.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
Yeah, exactly, it's a flat two.
Speaker 3 (04:09):
No, it just means nothing when it's divorced from
the playing, and I think thatthe way we're taught in the
classical realm is like here istheory, you're going to do your
shinkiering analysis and you'regoing to write down the chord
shapes away from your instrument.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
rather, than the two.
And then there's instrumentaltechnique and like the two are
totally separate from each other.
That is really true.
It's crazy.
Speaker 3 (04:30):
We have to be more.
We're so siloed I think that'sthe conclusion we are so
particularly siloed andspecialized that we're actually
blind, and I think that if wekind of like remove the blinders
a little bit, we really seekthe context a little bit more
and it makes us more powerful.
Maybe we're not Ray Chen orAugustine Hadelich or or Hillary
Haan or Yodemah or AlyssaWilderstein, maybe we're not
(04:52):
there, but that doesn't meanwe're not valid and we can't
really make beautiful music.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
So you're going into a lot of these educational
organizations and talking withstudents.
Is that what you end up doingwhen you go to these places?
Speaker 3 (05:06):
I've been over the past decade of making content.
I will get periodically invitedto go give talks at schools
about entrepreneurship or aboutjust my perspective of being a
professional musician, and justtry to tell kids the truth.
I'm not trying to like, oh,what's going to be great, you're
just going to make so muchmoney once you win your audition
(05:26):
, that's not you got to.
Or if you get that, you getyour DMA and you go teach.
You get a ten year position atan institution to teach other
people just like you.
You have to do exactly whatyou're doing right now.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
Well, I'm curious about what the students who are
coming out of music schools thatyou're encountering these days.
Do you feel like it's changing?
You feel like some of this isgetting through?
Speaker 3 (05:44):
depends on the school , depends on the school.
The conversations that I haveat Pepperdine University and the
Juilliard School are verydifferent, like still to this
day.
I'll talk to Juilliard kids andI will say something very
simply.
You need to look at your musicas a product.
I know art is art and selfexpression, yes, but it is also
a product because people consumeit.
And I had a little hand raisedfrom the back of the back of the
(06:07):
room and it was violinist andshe was like but doesn't that
make the art?
Doesn't that tarnish the art?
Doesn't it make it less pure?
And I'm like and I literallyjust responded to her, I was
like how does thinking about howpeople will receive it make it
less pure?
What's wrong with making thingsthat other people might want to
listen to?
Because otherwise the pleaseexcuse my language but otherwise
(06:29):
the process is masturbatory.
If you're just doing this foryou in front of other people,
that's kind of weird.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
But like you got it, yeah we've had that conversation
so many times that, like thereare often experiences we've had
on stage, like in orchestra,that feels that way, because
it's like who are we reallyconnecting with here?
You know ourselves, each otheron stage, yeah who is this for?
Who is this for?
Yeah, but that's a really validproduct.
(06:55):
Market fit.
It should be on a factsomewhere on a website of, like
how to be an entrepreneurialmusician, like.
But what happens to my art if Itry to market it?
You know, if I try to create aproduct out of it, it just
becomes a thing that people canconnect to.
Better right, like that's Ineed to make a post just giving
you newsletter ideas.
Speaker 3 (07:13):
I just I'm tired of answering that question.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
Honestly, I'm right down right now.
Speaker 3 (07:18):
I'm right.
There is something to that,though.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
I mean, when you're trying to find yourself as an
artist, you have to kind of notmake things for other people,
but, like, make what you trulybelieve in.
And there is a part of theprocess of figuring out who you
are as an artist that is justfor yourself, right, wouldn't
you agree?
Yeah, discovery, yeah, thediscovery, and then maybe the
(07:43):
figuring out how other peoplerelate to it, putting yourself
out there and then knowing thatit has value.
There is something to thecreative process that is just,
like you know, produce the art.
And that's the part of theprocess you can control, right,
Produce the art, produce the art, produce the art.
And then what you're talkingabout is the other end of it.
Okay, promote the art, marketthe art, you know.
Package the art.
Speaker 3 (08:04):
Let me be clear about what I'm advocating for Produce
the art and then, just like,before you release it, just like
, look at it again, just be like, hmm, who's this for?
Okay, is there a way that I cannot change the heart and soul
of it?
But is there a way that I can,kind of you know, chisel it down
and shape it to where, insteadof it just being my pure brain,
waves, like put it in a packagethat other people can
(08:26):
immediately hook onto and see,oh, I get what they're saying,
because if it's unintelligible,it's not effective.
Right, if it doesn't speak tosomething that's relatable, if
it doesn't speak to somethingthat we all experience as humans
, or if it doesn't, it doesn'thave to always be relatable
either.
It could be something brand new.
That's that's also valid.
I've seen art installationswhere it's like I've never
looked at the world that waybefore.
(08:47):
That's wild, but there's all.
There's always a referencepoint back to something that I
do understand, and I thinkthat's where it.
That's where things likeserialism and atonal music.
They often lose me and there'sno reason why.
I mean, there is a real reasonwhy it's used, often in horror,
so discomfort Because it's just,it's not.
Speaker 2 (09:07):
Yeah, it's so uncomfortable?
Yeah, we were talking about thebarber string quartet and how,
you know, nobody really knowsthe outside movements unless
you've played it, becausethey're so difficult to listen
to.
I mean, they're difficult tolisten to.
My quartet was like, yeah, it'sjust like nothing compared to
the middle movements and I said,well, you know, I mean,
everything has its time andplace, like that was written in
1949.
(09:28):
Yeah, I mean, what waseverybody going through at that
time?
I bet that music reallyresonates in certain ways.
However, just kind of pull itback to the initial start of
this conversation, which is thatthere is no money in classical
music.
The general population of humanbeings out there in this world
right now cannot connect to themajority of what we do, and it's
(09:50):
very difficult.
Speaker 3 (09:50):
It's because we don't tell stories.
Yeah, you can't.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
Just that's like it is.
You guys have just kind ofironed out this two prong part
of the process.
It's like discovering who youare as an artist and your voice
and what's important to you, andthen you're not done.
You're not done there.
Then there's the piece of okay,who is this for, why am I doing
(10:12):
it, what am I doing it for andwhat do I want that person to
gain from this experience thatI'm giving them?
That is a very important piecethat we don't learn how to do.
We just don't learn how to doit.
And unless you are, in and ofyourself, entrepreneurial and
you go out there and you figureit out for yourself, which a
bunch of us are trying to do,wouldn't it be nice?
That's just the standard.
Speaker 3 (10:33):
Oh, it'd be real nice .
Speaker 2 (10:35):
The standard of your career training was that.
It's very interesting.
Located in a historic mansionin Tacoma Park, Maryland, you
might get the impression thatthe team at Potter Violins are
as formal as the breathtakingbuilding that they work in, but
when you go inside instead,you'll find the most relatable,
skilled and friendly staff.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
Yes, the people at Potter's are what really make it
a special place.
I love visiting because I knowthat whoever I work with is not
going to make me feel like I'mcrazy or just being picky.
They're kind of like yourfavorite bartender.
They're great listeners whogive you what you need without
judgment.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
Yes, their technicians are not only super
talented, creative andresourceful, they take the time
to collaborate with you so thatthe process of getting your
instrument at its best reallyfeels like a partnership.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
So if you're in the area, definitely stop by and
introduce yourself to Chris, robKimberly, derek, jim, melissa
and the whole team, or visitPotterViolinscom to find what
you need online.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
It's so fitting, then , that their shop is in this
beautiful old house, because thestaff at Potter's really makes
it feel like home.
You have this follow-up article, which I feel like we've got to
mention, so I think maybe themoral of the story here is for
anybody listening to subscribeto your newsletter, because
there's some great material onhere.
Speaker 3 (11:56):
Please do We'll?
Speaker 2 (11:56):
put a link in the description.
Please do, thank you so youdiscuss the seven skills every
artist entrepreneur has andneeds to have.
Some of them are just likeintegral to business things like
networking and sales andmarketing.
I love that.
The first one you put waswriting.
It also made me go, I know.
Speaker 1 (12:21):
I'm literally like oh , no Writing.
That's why the blog page of ourwebsite is hidden right now.
Speaker 3 (12:27):
Me too.
Me too, look, I'm 32.
I've been doing social mediafor over a decade and I'm now
just starting to write, becauseI saw a video a couple months
ago that changed my world, andthe video maker was like.
He was like.
There are fundamental skillswhen it comes to creating
content on the internet and justbusiness in general.
(12:47):
Writing is one of thoseindelible concepts.
Everything is writing.
When you are trying to getinvestors or donors, you need to
write a business proposal.
You need to write a pitch deck.
If you need to get people tobuy your stuff, you need to
write ad copy.
If you need people to followyou on Instagram, you need to
write your captions.
If you want people to followyou and subscribe to your
(13:10):
YouTube channel, you need towrite your script, because it's
all about how you convey yourmessage.
If you can't convey yourmessage in a way that's
compelling and gets people tolisten, it all starts from
writing, and writing helps youcollect your thoughts and
organize them in a way thatother people can understand them
.
And if you don't develop thatskill like I haven't for so long
, like my poor girlfriend, she,half the time before I started
(13:33):
writing, she was like I don'tunderstand what you're talking
about and I was like it's in myhead, why aren't you just
reading my brain?
And I realized, oh, I'm justnot clear.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
Writing helps you get more clear about your thinking.
I'm an external processor, andso that's true for me too.
Really, a lot of times I'm like, I'm like dude.
I'm saying a thing.
How do you not understand whatI'm saying?
And then, when I write, itmakes so much more sense because
I go back and read it I'm like,oh, that didn't make any sense,
I should rephrase this, Ishould rephrase this and I
(14:02):
should.
Speaker 3 (14:02):
That was unintelligible.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
Yeah, I wonder if, oh , it's so interesting that I
know there are people who don'tfeel as comfortable with writing
.
I actually do feel I feelcomfortable with writing, but it
takes a lot of energy.
That's the problem I have withit.
It's like it takes a long timeto like I'll just dump a bunch
of stuff down and then I have togo back and re that I'm trying
(14:24):
to say and move things aroundand whatever.
But yeah, I wonder where thatskill like maybe some of us,
that skill develops out ofnecessity, though.
I get complimented on my emailwriting a lot and I'm like I
think it's just.
I think it's just because I hadto find a way to communicate
clearly, and this was theeasiest way to do it.
It's good, though.
Speaker 3 (14:44):
It's true, but it also works when you're working
as a freelancer.
If you write well, you'll buildbetter relationships with your
contractors.
They're going to want to workwith you.
If you're concise.
It's one of those skills that Isaid.
It has a compounding effect andit stacks upon other skills
that you already have, or thatyou will be developing in the
future.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
I love that you make it relatable to the people who
are coming up in today's world,because you know how informal
writing has become Like emailsare where texts once were.
Texts are like.
I mean sometimes I can't evenunderstand what someone texts is
so underrated.
There's no subject of asentence anymore.
(15:23):
It's like so informal.
Speaker 3 (15:26):
Yes, it's just emojis and gifs.
We all have that one friend,that all they do is send emojis
or gifs.
It's a reference of a reference, of a reference.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
It's the most inside of it.
But it is still important thatyou have these skills, because
this is how you're going topresent yourself in the world.
This is how you're going tomarket yourself.
I love that.
Speaker 2 (15:47):
It is.
It's really good.
Yeah, it's inspiring to mebecause I've been a little bit
stuck of like OK, where on earthdo I start?
And I don't want to gloss overtoo.
This is a really big pivot, Ithink, to hear you talk about
the social media content and thealgorithm game and how you can
use social media to build alarge audience.
(16:08):
But that audience isn'tnecessarily your audience at the
end of the day.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
You don't own it yeah .
Speaker 2 (16:13):
So how do you get your audience?
And your answer is to be morepersonal.
I mean writing a newsletter andsending it to people.
That is a very personal thing.
Not that your content onlinewas not personal Of course it is
but it's like fed through themachine as opposed to delivered
directly to the person gettingit.
Speaker 3 (16:29):
And that's what I was so excited about it, because I
really feel like my audience hasbecome pretty informal in the
last at least five years becauseI haven't really been.
I look back at my old posts andI was writing a lot of personal
stuff in my captions Because Idid it because I wanted people
to know me, I wanted people tofeel me.
But when I got a biggeraudience I found that if I don't
(16:53):
want that many people knowingsomething personal about me
because I made a post.
It was after Philando Castilewas murdered by police and I
made a post called Are you GonnaShoot Me Too?
And I got some real racist stuffin my comments that I was not
ready for at the time and it'skind of like colored my
(17:15):
perception of social media thatwere.
You know I could be me and likepeople can see me, but they see
a black man first and then theysee a violist, and then they
see me as a human, and so I'mlike I need to change the way I
communicate, and so I did for along time, but it didn't give me
the satisfaction.
So with this newsletter, Ireally am developing systems
(17:37):
where, if you subscribe to mynewsletter I haven't done it yet
, but I want to tell my storyfrom the beginning.
I want you to know who I am,the type of like my fears, my
convictions, like what I'mreally going for, so you can
like trust me and understandwhere I'm coming from, because I
think people they don't reallyfundamentally know me or my
integrity or where I come fromas a human being, and I want to
(17:58):
develop that more.
Speaker 2 (17:59):
So that's why I'm excited about the newsletter and
also, again, that observationjust goes to show that you know,
in a social media kind ofsetting, like everyone will love
you as long as you're postingthe things they want to see.
Speaker 3 (18:12):
Yes, yes, but you know, the things that are
controversial get the most eyes.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
I know, I know that's true, we know that from our
news media.
Speaker 3 (18:21):
I don't think controversy is necessarily bad,
like you guys asked me on herebecause I said there's no money
in classical music and the factthat that's a controversial take
is hilarious.
Speaker 1 (18:30):
No, you're just saying the quiet part out loud.
Yeah, that's right.
Everybody knows it's true,we're just not talking about it,
we're dancing around it andyeah like, how am I going to say
, how are we going to save thisorganization, how are we going
to save this orchestra?
Speaker 3 (18:44):
Yeah, Well, let's talk about it first.
Speaker 2 (18:47):
Let's not pretend that the house is not a fire,
let's just start, so such afascinating thing to be years
out of the shutdown of ourindustry, and that time was so
engaging and there was so much,I would say, revitalized energy
of like, okay, we could dothings differently, we can try
this, we could try that, we doall this stuff.
(19:08):
And there was all this promise.
There was all this like ideathat this promise that we're
going to do it differently andnow we're going to bring in the
big bucks, and now it's notgoing to be a struggle.
And I think we're hitting apoint this season where arts
leaders in particular andleaders of organizations and
just in general in our field arestarting to say, oh no, it's
still just the pandemic wasstill just as bad as it was
(19:31):
beforehand, even though I'mtrying everything I know right
now.
Speaker 3 (19:35):
Part of it is the economics.
Like I said, we have to learnbusiness.
We have to learn economics.
If you are a non for profitbased institution that relies on
donations, in times of higherinterest rates, in times of
economic contraction, whencompanies profit margins are
receding, they don't have toprotect their profits from Uncle
(19:56):
Sam, which means they don'thave to donate to you, which
means they have fewer money todonate anyway, which means your
salaries you can't keep them upwith inflation.
There's so many, there's somany things working against us
as artists.
We don't even realize that weare employees.
If you work for theseinstitutions that have no
bargaining power to increaseyour income, oftentimes they'll
(20:17):
just cut the size of theorchestra, and I saw this back
in 2011, 2012, 2013 with theAtlanta Symphony Orchestra, and
so, seeing this, you know, 13,12, 11 years ago I was like man,
this might not be the game.
I might need to go intobusiness for myself, because
there are too many things thatare working against us.
So we need to build more skills.
That is my thesis.
That is really when I'm goingfor it.
(20:39):
We need to build more skillsthat give us more autonomy, that
allow us to thrive in adecentralized manner away from
institutions, so that we canperform on our own terms.
Speaker 2 (20:48):
Here here Real quick you mentioned.
I just want to ask this.
You said the word unionismwants in this conversation, but
we kind of like went, we kind oflike left it.
Speaker 3 (20:57):
Yes, put that here.
Speaker 2 (20:59):
Yes, you know, in terms of how unionism impacts us
in a positive or negative way,and related to and this is this
is really what I'm getting atrelated to this concept of how
we know our value at any givenstage of our careers.
So we're talking about okay,you have a kid that is in high
school and is tutoring a studentand they're making 30 bucks an
(21:21):
hour doing it.
I'm not charging 30 bucks anhour to teach.
I'm never those days are.
I'm not sure those days everexisted, but if they did, it was
a very long time ago.
How do we get to a point wherethere's a more universal
expectation of the setting ofvalue for what it is that we do,
or is that so individualizedthat it's?
You can't quite come up with asystem Like at what point does
(21:41):
the system work against us orhas its own part to play?
Speaker 3 (21:45):
It's very complex because we're no longer working
with the global marketplace andnow the value and like the
quality varies.
You know, if you're going toBudapest, you're going to London
, you're going to Melbourne orSydney, or if you're going to
Czechoslovakia or Prague, youhave to realize like everybody
in the world is now competing torecord for movies.
(22:07):
Everybody in the world iscompeting to write strings for
big artists.
So you know, I don't thinkthere is a way to like
collectively bargain globally.
Yet I think that that is whatwould be required because you
know there will always besomebody that will take the gig
for 100 bucks.
You know there will always be aperson who they just want
exposure, right, they just wantto say that they recorded
strings for Justin Bieber tohelp them get bigger gigs and
(22:30):
maybe make money down the road.
So there always be thoseopportunities and I don't think
anyone union can can stop it.
But I'm optimistic that you know, if you build yourself a brand
that is valuable, that providesa unique value proposition to
the marketplace, you won't haveto play a commodity game.
And I think that is a trueconversation.
Are you replaceable?
(22:51):
The answer is yes.
Figure out why and fix it,because at the end of the day,
like we need to be able tocharge more than minimum wage to
be able to sustain ourselves.
And not everybody's going to beable to do it, and that's okay.
But we're all on a journey andif you're not there yet, if
you're still in the commoditytier, build your skills, build
your moat, make yourselfindispensable, and then you will
(23:12):
have very differentconversations when the time
comes.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
That's great, that's a great way to leave it
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (23:17):
Thank you, drew, this was amazing.
Speaker 1 (23:18):
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 3 (23:20):
This was so much fun Always such amazing thought
provoking my discourse that wehave here.
Speaker 1 (23:24):
It's good.
Speaker 3 (23:25):
I really enjoy speaking with you guys.
Definitely Let me know if youhave any questions or topics
that you want me to talk about.
On Grace Notes, my newsletter Idefinitely want to write this
newsletter for people like uswho are definitely we're
relieving the matrix a littlebit and we're trying to build
our own path.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
How can people subscribe to Grace Notes Drew?
Speaker 3 (23:44):
you can go to my Instagram at that viola kid.
Tap the link in my bio.
You can click join mynewsletter and put your email in
there.
Or you can go to my websitethat viola kidcom and click on
Grace Notes tab and put youremail there and you'll get a new
email every.
Speaker 2 (23:59):
Friday Everybody go, subscribe, you won't be
disappointed.
I am Thank you again, Drew.
Speaker 3 (24:04):
Thank you so much for having me guys Appreciate you.
Speaker 2 (24:08):
Thank you so much for listening today.
If you loved this episode,consider writing us a five-star
review on Apple podcasts, amazonmusic, spotify or wherever you
listen.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
Thanks also to our season sponsor, potter Violence.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
If you'd like to support the podcast and get
access to bonus content,consider joining our Patreon
community.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
You can buy all your Musician-centric merch,
including shirts, water bottles,koozies and a variety of other
fun items.
Speaker 2 (24:35):
Our theme music was written and produced by JP
Wogerman and is performed byStefan myself.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
Our episodes are produced by Liz O'Hara and
edited by Emily McMahon.
Speaker 2 (24:45):
Thanks again for listening.
Let's talk soon.
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