Begin Recovery from Narcissistic Abuse - Episode 303 - The Narcissist Abuse Recovery Channel

Episode Transcript
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Jon McKenney (00:07):
I brought a situation to her and had a had a
conversation. Whatever I gotback was the opposite of
relationship. It was theopposite of what should be said.
It was the opposite of kind. I'mlike, I'm in opposite world.

Voiceover (00:20):
In a world of hurt and pain, we find a way to break
the chain. A caring heart, aguiding light, you'll lead us
through the darkest night. Withpreservation in our soul, we'll
rescue those who've lostcontrol, escape the grip of a
narcissist on our journey torecovery bliss.

Badita, good to see you again.

Padideh Jafari (00:38):
Good to see you.

I have the privilege of being in studio
with you again at Olas Media. Sothis is very exciting to
actually do our podcast togetherlive in person.

I know. It's wonderful. I I gotta have you
move to Southern California. Imean, what do I have to do to
get that happening, emotion?

It's it's probably a bank account thing. Oh. The
housing in Georgia while it'sdoubled in price in the last
couple of years, it's still notquite where we are in
California. And the gasolinehere is ridiculously expensive
too.

We're

talking about $5 a gallon versus $2.70.

And to that point, they're actually
increasing gas July 1.

Oh, isn't that nice?

They're putting a tax on it.

It was funny. Drove through Downtown LA the
other day and I'm like thislooks wow. It's a culture shock
for me.

Yes. Almost like a third world country.

It kind of felt that way. In fact, visited Cape
Town, South Africa a couple ofyears ago with my best friend
and his family. And there weresome really, there were real
similarities between the two.Was fascinating to me.

Wow, and I go downtown a lot as you know
Downtown LA because that's themain court is Downtown LA.

Yeah.

So I know exactly what you're talking
about.

Culture shock and the other thing that I think I'd
have a hard time adjusting to. Imean Atlanta traffic is no gem
either, but it doesn't generallytake me an hour and a half to go
four miles. So around here it'slike I could walk quicker

in

some So of those it's adjustment. So what are we
talking about today, Padida?

We're talking about recovery. So much of
narcissists and when you hearabout narcissists and it's such
a downer. It is. It really is.It's like if you've been through
a narcissistic relationship, youknow.
You're like, I know all thesethings, tell me how to recover.

How do I get better?

How do I get better, heal, recover, and move
on from this demon in my life?

And it really is kind of a moving on, isn't it? I
mean, in some ways, at least forme, I felt like I divorced at
53. I felt like I was startingover and you have to kind of
assent to that.

Yeah, I mean we want to with this podcast, We
want to call it narcissist abuserecovery channel because we want
to give the victims who we callsurvivors, because really they
are survivors.

They are

And survivors hope because there is hope at
the end of this. There really isand you and I are both examples
of that.

We are. So in our last podcast I learned something
new about you.

Oh God, do I want this aired?

You do, probably you're fine.

Okay.

So I learned that when you divorced your ex, you
did not know he was a narcissistthen.

That's absolutely correct. How

it's like because you're so adept at this now, I'm
like, how is that possible? Butyou found out, how did you
discover it? And after the fact.

Yes, I discovered it because of my
husband's, his abuse with his exwife, how she was abusing him to
this day. They were married forfourteen years, divorced for
fifteen and she's still tryingto financially abuse him and
she's obviously abusing thechildren as well. So that's how

(04:23):
I started to learn aboutnarcissism. Was like the person
that she's describing is not theperson I'm falling in love with.
There is a major disconnect.
It's like Jekyll and Mr. Hutt,you know it's like that type of
thing. It was so different thanthe person I knew. And so I was
like there is some psychologyhere and I need to figure it

(04:46):
out. Around that same timepeople were talking about mental
health, like mental healthissues.
Like June was men's mentalhealth month. We didn't have
that twenty two years ago. No.We didn't. And so as the new
generation, I mean we talk somuch about millennials or bad or
this or that, they don't knowhow to do this, they don't have

(05:07):
manners.
You know what, millennials aretalking about mental health.

They absolutely are.

So because of that I studied and I understood
the psychology of narcissism andother cluster B personality
disorder. I will tell you in mypractice I also deal with a lot
of other personality disorders.

I bet.

Like histrionics, women have that
personality disorder like AmberHeard. She's a prime example of
that. So yes, I learned itreally five, six years ago.

Yeah, So here you are trying to recover from
something you actuallydiscovered after the fact with
respect to your divorce. In mysituation, I was married for
twenty five years. I was in ahelping profession where I'd
counseled and talked to many,many people over the years. And

(06:01):
I didn't understand whatnarcissistic abuse was. And I
literally sitting down praying,begging God for help.
And I got distracted as I waspraying and I picked up my phone
and scrolled to Facebook forjust a second. And my friend
posted an article, 20 diversiontactics of narcissists,

(06:24):
psychopaths and sociopaths. AndI read it and I went, woah, like
I could point to stories forevery one of those things from
my ex. And learned there thatshe was a narcissist, but it was
twenty five years in.

Wow. That's incredible.

It's a long time. Now, okay, I've been divorced
five, you've been divorcedseven, right?

No. I've been divorced close to 15.

15, that's right. So had to figure out how to
recover from all of this and toget better. And while we talk
about a lot of this stuff allthe time, don't again for the
podcast, we don't live in thesethings in ways. A lot

Well, that's not true. I mean we live them with
like sometimes I do withopposing counsels.

True.

I do with sometimes neighbors let's say.
Although I love my neighbors,I'm not saying you guys are
narcissists if you're listeningto this. But we see it with the
person maybe in the groceryaisle, right? You're trying to
get something and they're tryingto like, we see it so yes, in my
personal life I'm not, you know

You're not dealing with the old stuff so No, much
well,

That's also not true because my ex, he is like
the cockroach that you try tokill. This guy keeps coming
back. So he is so for ourlisteners, my ex husband is
remarried, third marriage, nojudgment. Listen, sometimes it
takes a while. You kiss a lot offrogs and sometimes it turns out
like a prince.

(08:04):
Not in this case though. He'sremarried, also had an
adulterous affair with her, gother divorce from her husband. So
he likes this is a pattern withhim. I'm gonna get the girl that
already has a husband thatnobody can get, right? But I can
get him.
I was engaged when I met him,truth be told. So got the girl,

(08:28):
listen, he doesn't go for uglygirls. I'm not saying I'm the
most beautiful girl, but

Oh, come on.

Okay, fine. And so what happens is he comes
back. So he constantly tries toDM me on TikTok and Instagram
saying, you know, if you werejust like my current wife, we
would still be together.

Like, why would they do that? I mean, after so
many years.

Or like he'll say, I'm in Beverly Hills. He
lives in Texas. He's moved 50times in fifteen years. But I'm
gonna be in Beverly Hills. I'dlike you to take you to dinner.
And I'm like, and you and by theway, bring your husband. Like he
is

so Like we're gonna be friends.

Yeah, like my husband's gonna sit there on a
couch like you and I are andsay, so this girl that you
literally tried to ruin her lifewhere she was suicidal, you want
me to just break bread with you?That's not gonna happen. Yeah.
And we don't have children, soit's not like I need to ever see
them again unlike So your yes,so I wish I knew what I know now

(09:37):
fifteen years ago because myrecovery was at a snail's pace.
And I wish I knew all the thingsthat we know now.

And what I mean by living in it, don't have to deal
with it every single day in thesame kind of way that we did
when we were attached to them.And I have some evidences of
those kinds of things in my lifetoo where my ex will text me and
ask me to go do this or that.Like we're friends and we're
not. In fact, I've gone completeno contact with her. I don't

(10:08):
respond to texts generally orhave any conversation with her.
And I've told her that I don'twant any conversation unless
it's about the children. Andthen I've got issues with the
children too who kind of respondin some narcissistic ways to me
also, which makes it difficult.And that's like having to deal
with her via proxy, but it's notevery day fortunately. And by

(10:30):
and large I feel mostly healed.I feel like I've gone and done
some things in recovery thathave been good for me.
And I know you've done some ofthese things as well. And we're
in a markedly different placethan we were when we first
divorced.

Yeah, mean my last therapist, and I went
through therapy for seven years.

I did, I went to a therapist too.

In this relationship because was, they
were constantly, he wasconstantly telling me there was
something wrong with me. And Ibelieved him. Because I cared
for him and I loved him and Iwas like gosh, if I'm so bad,
let me go fix me because I wannabe the best wife humanly
possible for you. Right. And somy last therapist though said to

(11:16):
me, the therapist was sittingacross, you and I were on a
couch.
He said to me, he said, I wantto meet this person. And that
changed my life because when hecame in and he starts telling me
how terrible, awful I am, andlisten, I've got flaws and I'm

(11:36):
willing to admit that, right?The next time the therapist
said, Okay, I want to see heragain, my patient, I want to see
my patient again. So I went backand the therapist sat me down,
he goes, I'm gonna tell you thisand I'm only gonna tell you this
once. And I was like, okay.
He goes, if you don't leave him,he's going to kill you. Do you
understand what I'm telling you?And I was like, he goes so right

(11:59):
now we're gonna sit and we'regonna discuss where you can move
to. And I was like I don't knowif you know this, I'm a
successful lawyer. By then I wasa lawyer for ten years.
I was like I'm a successfullawyer with a practice in LA.
Like what do you mean, where amI going? He's like no, no, no.
Can you go to Paris? Can you goto Georgia?
Where do you like? Do you likeTexas? He literally was trying

(12:22):
to strategize and I said well Ilove New York. I've always
wanted to be a lawyer in NewYork or maybe teach at NYU or
something. He's like okay, sowhat I need you to do is I need
you to not tell him this and Ineed you to make a plan to move.
So to the point where I wenthome that day, packed a bag,
didn't tell my mom, didn't tellanybody that I loved, my family,

(12:46):
my friends, and I took a one wayticket to New York.

Unbelievable, unbelievable. And actually what
you bring up is kind of on mylist of things to do to recover.
First thing is to make a plan toexit in some kind of way.

Escape. I call it escape because you never
leave a narcissist. They won'tlet you leave.

Absolutely.

You have to escape and I literally escaped
from my life. And it was twoyears later when he even found
out. We filed for a divorce andwe did all that stuff. But I
couldn't close the case. Therewas a part of me living 2,400
miles away that still thought ifhe changes or if I become better

(13:33):
somehow I'm gonna get backtogether.
That's how the trauma bond Yes.

That that's as you described, that's that's kind of
another thing on my list of ofthings to do to kind of heal and
recover is to realize that thisrelationship will not work and
it's not going to get better. Infact, it will get worse in time
and it does not improve.Narcissists do not improve in
time, they get worse in time.

Yes, and as they age, and I think there's a study
we can go back and let ourlisteners know, It's not a
Harvard study but it's one ofthose studies that says that as
narcissists age they get worsenot better. Because their
friends, their family membersfall off, right? Because they
don't want to deal with thechaos that the narcissist has.

(14:22):
So they'll start falling off andthe narcissist ends up being
alone a lot of the times. I knowmine is remarried but I
genuinely believe that it's sonew in their relationship she
just doesn't know.
And if she knew what I know,there's no way she would have

(14:42):
married him. There's just nobodywould, right?

Right, absolutely. Oftentimes when you're in a
relationship with a narcissistyou have the victim who's
working desperately hard to tryand figure out how to make this
thing work. Desperately. I wasin that boat too. It's like I
turned over every stone I couldpossibly turn over.

(15:06):
I sent her to therapy, I went totherapy and I could not figure
out how to make this thing work.And I continue to try and
continue to try and continue totry. Part of the process of
recovering is realizing that youdon't have a relationship with a
narcissist that is going towork. There's not a relationship

(15:27):
here. And let me take this onestep further.
Not only do you not have arelationship with a narcissist,
but the harder thing to absorbis that you never really did.

That's so hard. To this day, mean you're saying
that John but it's sotriggering.

I bet.

Because I genuinely love this person.

Same here. But the problem is you loved him, I
loved her, but we're the onlyones that had love. What you
thought was love upfront wasactually pretending in order to
kind of drain you of resource insome kind of way, whether it's
financially, whether it'semotionally, whether it's

(16:10):
status.

Sexually with mine.

Sexually, So it's not love upfront. I sat down
years back, well probably abouttwo years before I divorced with
my pastor and her. And he askedher, did you ever love him? She
goes, nah, I never really did.

Twenty six years with someone.

And she again, it's a rare the rare moments of
honesty and you know, you feellike you're pinned to the wall
with a dagger at that point intime. Like not not only does she
not love me, but she never lovedme. Would you go, why in in the
world would you marry somebodyyou don't love? But this is the

(16:53):
truth. My ex verbalized it, Iknew it but to hear it was kind
of devastating anyways.
But you you have to understandthat you are the one who had
love. They're the ones who areusing you. And that the
relationship you thought you hadactually never existed. It was
it was a relationship offunction for them, of use, but

(17:19):
love was not a part of thatrelationship and not a part of
that equation.

Right. I mean I can think back to I was
everything. I was the babysitterbecause he had a daughter. I was
the one doing pickups and dropoffs. He would never do them,
never.
When I say never, he nevershowed up for that

Like a zero.

Zero times. I was taking her to church twice a
week. I was writing the spousalsupport and child support checks
to his ex. I was doingeverything, like financially. Oh
you want seven series car butyou don't have a job?
No problem, I'll get it for you.Yep. Like everything and
anything, even my family back inthe day, we lived very close

(18:01):
like ten minutes away. Couldn'teven go see my dad. When my dad
ended up in the hospital for thefinal time, I literally begged
him.
I was like I will buy youanything, I will buy you a
watch. He was sexually deviant.I was like I'll go do whatever
you want sexually if you come tothe hospital to see my father

(18:24):
and his thing was like beingwith other men. So it was like,
that was the extent of it,right? It wasn't like, let me
wear a maid outfit for you.
It wasn't like that. That wouldhave been like just kinky,
right?

Right.

It was like I will do anything possible for
you to come visit my fatherbecause he's asking about you.
And so when he came to thehospital finally my dad's like,
Oh, you know you're here blahblah blah blah. My father said,
Will you pray for me? And thenmy father said, when I'm gone,
will you take care of mydaughter?

Oh my God.

And he's like, yes I will. And I just sat there
going, this is costing me somuch, right? Yeah. And he walked
out of there and he was like,yeah, you know, your dad's saved
now. I showed up and I'm thesavior.
And I'm thinking to myself,okay, what is this gonna cost
me? And it did. It cost megreatly because later on

(19:17):
sexually what I had to do forhim keep him, to keep our
marriage this facade like you'resaying that didn't really it
wasn't a marriage. It wasn't oneon one like communication or I
mean

It's hard it's hard to adjust to. It it's it is
it is to adjust to the fact thatyou did not really ever have a
relationship with somebody thatyou genuinely loved. It was a
one way relationship. If youhave you have love for the
person I used to tell my ex allthe time, you know, if I if I
brought a situation to her andhad a conversation, whatever I

(19:52):
got back was the opposite ofrelationship. It was the
opposite of what should be said.
It was the opposite of kind. I'mlike, I'm in opposite world. I'm
looking for compassion, I getrage. I'm looking for kindness,
I get anger. And it was alwaysthe opposite of what a friend, a
loving friend would do.
And now we have perspective somebecause we've been out of those

(20:18):
relationships for such a longtime. But to adjust to the fact
that you never really had arelationship with these people
is very hard.

Right, so when we're talking about recovery, I
mean don't do it what I did,right? I left everybody that I
loved, moved to New York andreally was bi coastal for
thirteen years. That's how Itaught at NYU and I went on to
do other things and had apractice obviously still here in
California. But it wasdifficult. It was not easy.

(20:49):
And my mom would say to me like,how long are you going to punish
yourself? Know, because I wasliterally punishing myself. And
it really wasn't until I met myhusband which was years later
that I was like, wow, okay, Ithink I can forgive myself for
the things I had to do to keepthis person. And really made an

(21:14):
idol of him. He was beforeeverybody else, before God,
Jesus, the Holy Spirit.
He was the first, he was theidol. And so I had to forgive
myself for that as well and askGod for forgiveness. But the
recovery really was moving away,exercise, I did a lot of
exercise, I had to.

Let's about the moving away piece for a second
because I mean ultimately theonly way to deal with a
narcissist is to disconnect.Yes. Like there's no
rationalizing with this person.There's no negotiating with this
person. Healthy relationshipsthere's negotiation.

(21:58):
I think negotiation is happeningall the time because it matters
to you, it matters to me. Andthat never takes place with a
narcissist because what mattersto you doesn't matter to me.
What matters to me matters to meand what matters to you, I don't
care about. And you can't everhave a relationship with
somebody like that. And if youdon't have a relationship with

(22:19):
somebody like that, you realizeyou didn't have a relationship
with somebody like that.
You're not going to have arelationship with somebody like
that. The only solution is todisconnect. And your therapist
told you to go pack up and headto New York, which you did, but
that was as much as it wasextreme, it was also right.

Right, I had to.

You had to disconnect and there are people
out there, well how do Idisconnect? I can't leave right
now. There are different levelsof disconnection. There's
something we call gray rock andin gray rock you're basically
emotionally disconnecting fromsomebody. I oftentimes, at least
when I got to this point in mymarriage, was one word answers.
You're going out? Yes. Where areyou going? Out. And and you you

(23:03):
you have to you have to kindadisconnect from this person
emotionally and you you wind upjust kinda giving them
passionless and very verydispassionate responses instead
of responses that have any kindof emotion whatsoever because
emotion fuels them.
So you're trying to kind ofremove their authority, remove

(23:24):
their control. And when yourespond dispassionately, they
realize they have no controlover you. I started to do that
and my ex asked me to leavethree weeks later. She's like,
you can get out. And I'm like,oh no, my name's on the deed of
that house, but there's thedoor.
You're welcome to go if youlike. And we're beginning to
have these conversations, but itwas because I to just completely

(23:44):
and totally, particularly thoselast two years, emotionally
disconnect. And during those twoyears, like you, you went home,
packed a bag and left, boughtyourself a one way ticket. It
took me two years, I had to makea plan to get out which I was
uncertain whether I was gonna goexecute but I started and did
that for a couple of years andthen when the time was right two

(24:07):
years in I said okay I need adivorce and I began to execute
that plan.

Right and a lot of clients they'll come to me
for a strategy session becausewe talk about that on our social
media. Like just come in for aconsultation I do it via zoom.
Let's figure out what your nextmove is Remember that
narcissists are very crafty.They're like serpents. This is a
biblical perspective but they'relike serpents.

(24:33):
So they're very crafty in theway that they think and they're
always thinking like a 100 ormore.

And they'll always do the unexpected. Right. Like
the thing you think they wouldabsolutely never go do, they
will do. They will constantlysurprise you.

So I'll set up a strategy session with them and
figure out sort of like when youshould leave. Should you wait
till, if you have childrenobviously you can't just pack up
a bag and leave. I was blessedthat I didn't have a child with
this person or else I'd be stuckin California permanently. But
what happens is I'll say shouldwe wait until the children get

(25:08):
out of school in the summer?That's why January and June are
divorce months.

Interesting.

And so are they out of school? Okay, they,
sometimes a client will say,they'll file and they're like
don't serve the person until acertain thing happens.

Right.

And I'm like okay, unfortunately in Orange
County once you file, they don'tdo it through the system. They
do it like by hand And so ittakes a week or two. So you
filing for divorce and you won'tget that document back for
sometimes a week or two.

Wow.

And so during that time, right, you're
strategizing and then you get itback and then you have to serve
the person. So that starts thesix month waiting period in
California because we have awaiting period. Yeah. So it's
called cooling off period.

Yeah.

And and you're just thinking like, get Get

the hell out period is Kate, what it right.

That's what we do because we deal with high
conflict narcissistic divorces.Really strategize and think
about and say this is thestrategy but they're gonna go
left anyway. They're gonna goright. They're gonna do what is
unthinkable.

And and interestingly enough, also at
the same time, if you're ifyou're still in a relationship
with these people, something wetalked about on one of the other
pod podcasts, I think with withEddie. We we talked about about
actually doing what you need todo to try and save the thing in
some respects or to at least getyour narcissist help so that

(26:48):
when you leave you have peace.

Right. So with Bill Eddie, he was saying that,
I think it was in this seasontwo, season three, he was saying
that some people want to doeverything possible so that when
they leave, they don't feelguilt. Because as a survivor you
do have guilt.

No question.

And so you've acted like this person's savior,
right? Like you're saving them,you're gonna fix their childhood
wound, they're not so bad.You've been lying about them to
your family and friends. And sohis point was like if you are
gonna go to therapy, go totherapy just for yourself even.
Absolutely.
And so yes I did that too by theway for many years.

And likewise for me I brought my ex to different
places to try to get her help. Iwent to a multitude of
therapists with her to try toget her help. I actually dialed
in on a therapist who justworked with narcissists to try
and get her help and every lastbit of it she refused. Now, did

(27:58):
it save my marriage? Oh hell no.
Did it help me in any kind ofway to deal with her? Not a
whole lot. Does it give me peacetoday now that I'm out? Oh, yes
it does. Okay.
I know every time I lay my headdown to the pillow at night that
I did everything humanlypossible to try and help her.

(28:22):
And there is a ton of peace inthat. Now that being said,
somebody could get lost in doingall of these things trying to
get their narcissist help. Willthey change? No, it's not going
to happen.
But there is peace for you inmaking an effort to know that on

(28:44):
the other end of it when it'sdone that you've done everything
possible to try and make itwork. There's a balance in that
because I do think that youcould spend decades in trying to
get somebody help and by andlarge let's be clear narcissists
don't want help. They don't Theydon't want to acknowledge a
problem. They don't want toacknowledge their part of the
problem. I can remember sittingin one with one of the

(29:06):
therapists who was a Christiantherapist and you'd think they'd
counsel you away from divorce.
And the therapist looked at meand said, yeah, I just think you
need to leave her. And she satback very quietly for a moment
and then ultimately said, am Ithe cause of all of this? The

(29:27):
therapist is like, yes, this iswhat people divorce over. And
she now did that changeanything? No, not a bit.
Told her told her what shouldtake place, told her what was
going to take place and itdidn't matter. But again, if
doing these kinds of things onthe far side, though they didn't

(29:48):
help me in relationship withher, they helped me personally
and it was an important part ofmy recovery because I could say
on the other side of it, I dideverything I could for her. And
I believe that and know that inmy heart to this day that I did
everything I could to try andmake it work. And that's the
peace part of it. If you go todo some of these things, I'm

(30:10):
telling you right now don'texpect change.
Correct.

I agree with that.

But at the same time it is peace for you
personally on the other side ofit because the relationship is
going to end whether you like itor not.

Right and I wanna say one thing and this is
the reality of it and I feellike I had this idea came to me
when I was thinking about ourpodcast. The narcissist does not
want to change.

Zero.

I was trying to have my husband be this church
going man that he said he was.Used to have a youth group. You
know, don't you want to be thatgreat guy again? Don't you want
people to look up to you? Don'tyou want God to be pleased with
you?
Well, he's not when you'recheating and lying and
manipulating and ripping peopleoff. He didn't want to be that

(31:03):
person. Do you see what I'm

saying? Absolutely.

So when you say like you're lying, they could
give a shit that they're lying.They're like okay because they
don't have the conscience thatyou and

They I don't even know. At some level they didn't
realize they're lying or careabout it.

That's what I'm saying.

They just don't care.

So when you go to therapy and you're like, like
you did, you're like don't youwanna change? This is what, they
don't. They're really happy withwho they are and they're very
boastful about it too. Why?You're not gonna leave.
On one hand they think thatyou're gonna leave them because
they've got abandonment issues.On the other hand they think

(31:44):
that you're so trauma bondedthat you won't. And their ego
says like she's never gonnaleave. Like literally I was 35
when I left him. He said, whowould want you?
You're old and you are a divorceattorney. Who would want you?
You're too old, you've passedyour prime. And I really felt

(32:05):
that way. And then finally Isaid, even if nobody wants me
I'm going to choose me.
And I didn't say that becausethat would have been a war of
magnitude, World War III, IV, Vand VI. I just said to myself I
said I'm going to choose me.

So by and large the people who are in
narcissistic relationships wecall them empaths a lot of
times. Are very empatheticpeople, they are very
compassionate people. They'realso people who are the opposite
of self centered. So to be in aplace where you choose you as

(32:45):
you're saying

It's so foreign.

It is foreign. It is opposite of the way you
naturally operate. So to makethat decision for somebody who's
empathetic and who prettynaturally puts other people's
needs before their own is aridiculously difficult decision
or realization or action to haveto assent to. Same thing for me.

(33:09):
When I married it ceased to beJohn and it began to be us,
myself and her.
Us was what I was most concernedabout and in most situations her
because I knew that we couldn'thave a healthy marriage until
she was healthy.

100.

So that was part of my trying to get her help.
And to have to go andemotionally withdraw, which is
kind of self preservation, it'sa decision about self. And a
decision to have to go divorce,which is also a decision about
self. You're saying saveyourself, that can be

(33:50):
ridiculously hard for people whoare empathetic and who consider
other people's needs first. Butyou did it because you had to.
Yes. There was no other choice.And this is part of the recovery
process too particularly forempathetic people. You have to
realize in these places thatthere is a point in time and

(34:11):
there is a place in time whereyou have to care about you. And
it's not selfish to do that,it's necessary.

Yes, because really if you stay with them
it's like you're either to loseyourself, you've already lost
yourself in the marriage.Totally. And then you're going
to be either suicidal, you'regonna either commit suicide
because we know people that havecommitted suicide, you and that
have reached out to us throughour social media. So it's not a

(34:39):
good life for you, right? No.
To stay with them. And then yourealize on the other hand they
don't wanna change becausethey're happy being demons. So
you're like okay well thatdemon's happy to be themselves
and I need to make a change formyself. And so we've said this
before, find somebody that youcan talk to. A strategy session

(35:01):
maybe with a divorce attorney oreven with your close confidant
and then just put, likeliterally I would tell myself
today when I wake up I'm gonnaput one foot in front of the
other and that's all I've got.
I don't have more than that. Iwould show up at my therapist's
office in Uggs and my pajamas.Now remember, I was a successful

(35:23):
attorney back then. And this ishow I was showing up because
that's all I could do.

Right.

And so that man actually saved my life. I mean
Jesus has saved my lifeobviously but that therapist
saved my life and he's actuallyhelped a lot of people I know
get out of abusive marriages andrelationships and he passed away
two years ago.

I'm sorry

about that. Doctor. Shamshian, he's in
heaven because he's helped somany people with addiction. He
also helps people with addictionget out of this very abusive and
toxic marriage.

Yeah. There are different levels of people you
want to converse with in thiswhole process of recovery. And I
think having other peopleinvolved with you is a really
important component torecovering. And for me there
were a couple of differentlevels. One is what you
described here, is a therapistor a coach.

(36:23):
And ultimately I would tell you,like the first therapist I saw,
he helped me and he didn't evenrealize it. In fact I didn't
acknowledge it at the time. Veryearly on about probably ten
years before I divorced this wasjust after my ex had told me she
had an obsession with an exboyfriend and then was
pretending she didn't have theobsession and didn't say it and
none of this stuff happened. Ican remember I wasn't living in

(36:47):
Atlanta at the time and I'd justmoved back with the family. I
met with this guy and after twoor three, maybe five sessions,
said to me, one of three thingsis gonna happen.
I said, okay. And he said, youwill either divorce her now,
you'll divorce her later, or youwill find different corners of

(37:12):
the house to live in and figuresome way to cohabitate. And I
stood up and I said, I don'twant any of those. I want secret
answer number four which ishappily ever after because I'd
not given up hope. I thought,okay, this is workable and it
wasn't workable.
When we got to that point, said,I guess we're done. Because I

(37:35):
don't want the solutions you'regiving me and I stopped seeing
him. And he was so right. Itjust took me another ten years
to figure it out. Those were myoptions.
Divorce her now, divorce herlater, we'll find some corners
of the house to go live in andquite honestly that house was
not big enough for the both ofus. Which left me with option

(37:55):
number one and option number twoand I had to divorce her and
divorced her later after thekids were out. And then later on
as I divorced and began to getthrough the process,
particularly the last two yearsof our marriage, I went and saw
a therapist who specialized inabuse and particularly men who
were abused by narcissists thatwas helpful and kind of

(38:19):
transitioned from her. And shewas amazing to another
therapist. I felt like Iconnected with a little bit
better and who I still see tothis day from time to time.
In fact, I saw her last weekbecause I was struggling to
negotiate in my head with someof the issues with respect to
the narcissistic abuse thatcomes through my children. So I
still have these conversationswith therapists from time to

(38:41):
time and they can be abundantlyhelpful in the recovery process.
So I would encourage you to godo that. Do I think there's a
lot of value in you taking yournarcissist with you? Zero.
None of those sessions were justpissing money away is really all
it was. The other level ofconversation that I think was

(39:04):
helpful in recovery wasconversation with friends.

Yes, that was helpful. Although it has to be
friends that have sort of gonethrough a narcissistic, right?
Because most people do notunderstand this because remember
this is a disorder.

It is a personality If

you say something like this to a
girlfriend and they've neverbeen with somebody that's been
narcissistic, they cannot relateto you. They'll say, well, know,
just do this or maybe you, likeI know with women, maybe you
need to sleep with him more. Andyou're like, girl, he's not even
interested

in So that's the kind of advice I got as well
from some people. It's wellmeaning.

Yes.

But it's trite because it it doesn't it doesn't
acknowledge the reality of thesituation. Going and having sex
with somebody is not gonna gofix it, going and being nice.
And I got the same advice.

You got

From that from a pastor Yeah. Go home, make love
to your wife and like that'sgonna fix it and like that's
what she wants anyways. Are youout of your mind? That's the
last thing on her mind andthat's the last thing that'll
fix our relationship. So whenyou describe these kinds of
things, people who are friendsand again perhaps well meaning
even in some of it, they don'tunderstand.

Right, well now there's so many resources,
right? I mean not to plug ourpodcast but there's so many
resources like podcasts, there'sbooks, there's so many books we
YouTube videos, all the thingsthat wasn't there for me fifteen
years ago. But I'm happy to be apart of this community of people

(40:38):
that believe the victim survivorand really just listen and try
to involve yourself in thiscommunity and ask questions. And
John is obviously you docoaching for men and women.

And that's actually where I think coaching
could be actually more effectivethan therapy. Because the
coaches you deal with have beenthrough this personally.

Correct.

They absolutely know the distance that you've
traveled in some capacity andare naturally empathetic too at
the same time. So oftentimesthey're the best people to go
communicate with.

Yeah, so it's great that we do have a
community and that survivors dohave a community. I wish I knew.
I wish fifteen years ago I was alittle bit less hard on myself.
But it took two years. It tooktwo years to finally realize I
gotta let this go and I can'tcarry this guilt.

One of the things I think as I was pondering our
conversation today and the valueof relationships in helping you
heal. I found also that throughthe recovery process that you
will be surprised who yourfriends are on the other end of

(42:03):
it.

Oh, 100%. Are you kidding me? Yes,

absolutely. There are people you think will stand
with you who will go, that can'tbe happening and will think you
crazy and discard you. Peopleyou thought were wingmen and
friends. I had a guy from mychurch who I would consider a
dear friend and we'd play WordsWith Friends all the time on our

(42:27):
phones and found out I wasdivorcing, cut me loose. Never
had a conversation and I haveexpected him to have been more
empathetic or at least to haveheard what was going on.
He didn't do that. And therewill be others who flat out
discard you and don't stand withyou because it's a divorce for

(42:49):
for other reasons. Then therewill be those that group of
people who find out who donothing but draw in close to
you.

You had a group?

I did.

Oh my gosh. You were blessed.

I was.

You were

Still am with those same same people. And so I
and it's not a large group ofpeople. By and large, we're just
talking about a handful of folkswho I felt like really stood
with me. My my family abandonedme in it and took me in as their
family. And so I'm not absent offamily.
Is it different? Absolutely. Butthere are people that stood with

(43:23):
me through this whole thing thatjust love me and you will be
surprised who stands with youand who doesn't.

Right, and even if it's one person, for me it
was just my mom who believed inme and said I don't recognize
who my daughter is anymorebecause I was a shell of myself.
And then when I went to New Yorkafter I was there for a couple
weeks I finally called her and Isaid you gotta come, I gotta fly
you out to New York. I think I'mgonna be staying here and

(43:54):
getting an apartment and beingbi coastal and she came and she
was, my mom is the cutestperson. You've seen picture of
her but you've never met her inperson. She was like five foot
two, all wisdom, all wisdom.
And she came and she helped meget my apartment and furniture
and all this stuff. But I was ina studio apartment. Like here

(44:15):
I'd gone from a penthouse,right? Right. In Studio City
actually where we were for ourpodcast launch party, I was
living in Studio City in apenthouse, beautiful cars, the
whole thing.
And here I was like in New YorkCity in a studio. But you know
what she said to me? She goes,Do you have peace? And I said,
Yeah. She goes, That was worthit.

(44:36):
Because everything else you'llget later again if you want it
but your peace was expensive.And she's like, your piece was
expensive and you didn't listento me about this guy. I said, I
I didn't listen to you, I didn'tlisten to dad, I didn't listen
to my brothers. I go, but can wenot ruminate on that because I

(44:58):
already feel bad that I didn'tlisten to the people that loved
me. And she said yeah, and thatwas it.
Wow. But it took two years of,and again we did not have
children. So when people havechildren it just takes longer
because like you said you haveto deal with them. You can't
really block her because Godforbid something happens with

(45:20):
your child and she needs to geta hold of you.

Yeah, mean there are group of people out there
who just can't financiallyafford to leave. Couldn't have
afford, with four children,there's no way I could have left
while all four of the kids werein the house. All of my money
would have gone to child supportand I'd have been destitute
myself. So it's just notpossible. That's why sometimes
these plans that people have tomake and execute, they take time
and mine took time as well.

(45:45):
But you talk about your mom,it's like the value of having
somebody in your life, even justone person that believes you,
that you can communicate with isjust tremendous and helpful in
your recovery. Now that beingsaid, there are a group of
people out there who would loveto just kind of go from one
relationship to another.

Yeah, I don't recommend that. I know as the
victim survivor you want to dothat because you know that
they're going to be doing that.The narcissist is always on,
listen they're not finished withthe divorce they've already
moved on. No. Actually they'vealways had someone else because
they consider it supply so itdoesn't mean that they're having

(46:26):
meaningful relationships withother people it's just like a
form of supply so they have tohave at least like a couple out
there.
So before they even leave therelationship with you they're
already started so that is thetendency is to kind of for
yourself to go into the nextrelationship. But you have to be

(46:48):
careful because you have to seeyour part in it. Is a part of
you that chose this person. Nowwere you fooled? Did you fall
for the love bombing?
Yes, but why? Why did you feelthat you needed that love
bombing? So if somebody's comingon too strong or wants to move
in with you or have you move inwith them, you've got to just

(47:10):
say no.

Yeah, you know interesting you're talking about
a process here of kind of selfdiscovery trying to figure out
why you were attached to anarcissist. What drew you to the
narcissist? What kept you inrelationship with a narcissist?
And trying to determine thesekinds of things, a lot of them

(47:32):
will wind up being kind of theresult of your family of origin.
You'll find probably that at theroot of a lot of these kinds of
things.
But if you jump out of arelationship and just into the
next one I'm telling you you aredestined to kind of repeat the
same kind of situation. Andthat's problematic. The only

(47:54):
thing worse than having to dealwith one narcissist is having to
deal with two. And if you putyourself in a position where
you've not taken the time todiscover you're just being
unwise. And I'll make thisstatement.
The people I've seen and haveknown over the years through
coaching and conversation,particularly on social media,

(48:18):
those that run from arelationship with narcissist
right into another find anarcissist the second time
around.

Yeah, I would agree with that. I mean for me
it took eight years. Eight yearsof being seven years married,
eight years of being single. Notthat I didn't date but didn't
trust my own judgment that Iwasn't going to pick another
person like him becausesomething about that was very
attractive.

And that's that's actually I think the healthy
disposition that I don't trustmy own judgment. Yes. That's the
healthy disposition as you'reseeking to recover I think.
Because you need to know, youneed to understand what it was
about you that at some levelsought a person like that out,

(49:06):
at some level stayed with aperson like that and put up with
it and allowed your own self tobe kind of beat down through the
process and continuing in thatrelationship. I know for me
personally, I discovered a lotabout my family of origin and
how they operate.
Cousin said to me one time,goes, do you realize that of
the, I think there were seven ofus cousins, six of us married

(49:30):
people who were relativelynarcissistic? And I went, no. I
did not realize that's a realinsight. And I went back and
kind of traced through it andsure enough, that's the reality.
And some of that stuff came outof my family of origin.
And I see that stuff veryclearly now how I put up with
that kind of stuff. And thepeople I engage right now and

(49:53):
are close to won't allow thatkind of stuff for me. They don't
treat me that way and they knowmy history as well and would not
ever allow for those kinds ofthings for me which I'm grateful
for. They're very protective ofme. So for us having gone
through it putting ourselves ina place of recovery is also

(50:13):
understanding that in somerespects I'm a dummy and I don't
know what's best for me.
And until I discover some ofthese things I really can't
trust my own insight withrespect to significant
relationships like that.

Yes, but recovery is possible. I mean, I
am a result of that. You are a Iresult of mean, remarried, it
took eight years, but I have agreat marriage. We dated for
three years. I got to meet hisfamily, met his children
obviously.
He's got three boys. And sowanted my mom to meet him and

(50:50):
she did during COVID actually.So met him, got to ask a lot of
hard questions to him becausehim having gone through

a

narcissistic marriage with three boys, her
daughter having gone throughthat with no children, she
really had some hard questionsfor him. It was interesting
because my oldest brother thatwas there, we were all kind of
talking and having Persian teaand my brother's like, mom, do
you have any more questions? Andshe's like, no. And my oldest

(51:20):
brother's thinking he's at theSpanish interrogation, right?

Spanish inquisition.

Spanish inquisition. She's like, really?
She's like, well, he's beinghonest and he's being genuine
and he's telling me his storyhimself. So I don't need to ask
him anything because he's notleaving anything out. You know?
And so my husband is greatbecause he doesn't blame the

(51:45):
mother of his children. He says,you know, I was in a vulnerable
time. He had just gotten a jobat Goldman Sachs. He's very
proud to tell you that if youmeet him. And so he was like, I
just didn't know.
I was like, Okay, it's time toget married. And she had been
married before, like five yearsolder. And she knew sort of what
she was doing. So he's like,look, I just thought, Okay, this

(52:09):
is the right thing to do. Andhonorable men do that, right?
And so he's like, Okay, she'sgreat, she's blah, blah, blah.
And comes from a big family. Allthe things that he values now in
our relationship. And so hejust, but he told her the story
so she didn't have to askquestions. So he's like this was

(52:31):
my fault for not digging indeeper.
And my mom's like, okay, isthere anything else? And he's
like, yeah, can I have yourblessing? And my mom's like,
yes. And without any hesitation.And he is the only man she's
ever loved for me.
I'm 50 now.

So you've taken it to another level. You've not
only had, you've been to therapyand you've had therapists who've
helped you significantly. Youhave other people in your life
like your mother who's helpedyou significantly but you took
it one step further and youallowed those people you trust

(53:14):
to evaluate your newrelationship.

Yes. That was really For you? That was really
hard because usually, I mean I'ma lawyer, right? I feel like I
got this handled, right? I don'twanna give up that control
necessarily.
Right. But I had to say no, Iwant my family. I want my mom,
my brother, my sister who you'vemet several She's amazing. Thank

(53:37):
you, my sister is amazing.

It's so evident you just adore her.

I do. I was on the way here actually today and
I texted her and I was like,she's at work. And I was like, I
just wanna tell you how much Ilove you and thank you for
showing up. Oh my gosh.Wonderful.
She didn't have to. She didn'thave to come to our launch
party. What is she getting outof it? But just to be there. So
yes, I let them sort of evaluatehim and that's important.

(54:04):
If you don't have parents, sureyour friends are doing it. Don't
be afraid. Don't be afraid tohave people evaluate the person
you're with because if they'regenuine, your friends are gonna
be hopefully you've got goodfriends, right? Are gonna be
happy for you and say yeahabsolutely.

Interestingly enough you know some of my
friends later after the ones Itrusted who who knew my ex would
would go when they saw usthey're like, what? You know?
They they of my buddies said,you know, it's like I couldn't
ever have pictured you together.And sure enough, I didn't see

(54:46):
that upfront. And I wish I'd hadsomebody who kind of speaks some
truth to me earlier on andperhaps this all could have been
avoided.
This twenty seven yearheartache. To go and have the
people around you who trust youor who you trust to go and
evaluate a new potentialrelationship, especially when

(55:07):
you've embraced the fact thatokay, perhaps I'm not so good at
choosing is is a healthy thing.

Well, would also say don't beat yourself up
because before I got married, mybrothers which they never never
opined on anyone I ever dated,they sat me down and said do not
marry this person. Like ifyou're just trying to have fun
and stuff that's great but donot marry this person. This
person's not marriage material.And so even my father who was

(55:38):
alive at the time said do notmarry him. So don't worry, even
if you got that advice, you'reso trauma bonded to them that
you're like what are you talkingabout?
Even the people that you trustthe most. So just be careful
with that because I want ourlisteners to know that's why
it's important to not give yourheart away so easily.

Lots of things we've discussed here. We hope
they're helpful to you in yourrecovery. If you have questions,
feel free to reach out to us onsocial media. NARC. Podcast is
our podcast channel onInstagram.
If you want to reach Padida, canreach her at Jafari Legal on
Instagram and I'm male victimsof female narcissists on

(56:25):
Instagram as well. PM boxes arealways open to questions. I do
coaching as well and Padida isan attorney in real life so if
you need either of us to go helpyou we can help you there too.
Than that it'll be until ournext time and unfortunately it's
not going to be face to facelike this so I want to tell you

(56:47):
how much I enjoyed being withyou in studio. It's just
spectacular.

Thank you so much. High five.

High five. Have a wonderful afternoon.

Voiceover (56:56):
Thank you for listening to the Narcissist
Abuse Recovery Channel. Be sureto follow and subscribe wherever
you get your podcasts. To hearother episodes or read the
associated blogs, visitwww.narcissistabuserecoverychannel.com
and be sure to follow us onInstagram with the handled narc.

(57:16):
Podcast. The guest views,thoughts, and opinions expressed
are their own.
The information presented is forgeneral informational purposes
only and is not intended to belegal advice. The co hosts are
not licensed therapists. Seekprofessional help as information
is often state specific. TheNarcissist Abuse Recovery

(57:36):
Channel is produced in studiosin California and Georgia.

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Begin Recovery from Narcissistic Abuse - Episode 303

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Begin Recovery from Narcissistic Abuse - Episode 303