March 21, 2025 • 45 mins
Vicki Gunvalson is a mother of two, a proud “Nana” of 4, a self-made business woman, a long-time resident of Orange County. Vicki was the original cast member of Bravo’s hit reality TV show, The Real Housewives of Orange County, appearing since its inception – 19 seasons ago. Vicki also appeared on the Peacock shows Ultimate Girls Trip 2 in the Berkshires and Ultimate Girls Trip 4 in Morocco. She has a drive for success and has the strength and tenacity to back it up with her successful Life Insurance & Retirement Planning Company, Coto Insurance & Financial Services, for over 34+ years.
Despite all of Vicki’s successes, Vicki has encountered narcissists in her life and spends some time with Jon McKenney and Padideh Jafari talking about her experiences, her pain, her faith, and her healing. You’ll find her insight through her struggles meaningful as she speaks from the heart and tells her story of the abuse she experienced from narcissists.
Narcissist Abuse Recovery Channel: IG: @narc.podcast www.narcissistabuserecoverychannel.com
Vicki Gunvalson: linkedin.com/vgunvalson IG/@vickigunvalson
Check out some of the key moments:
0.00 Getting Acquainted
4:15 Wanting Love & The First Narcissist
7:17 Discoveries
9:00 Consequences
10:25 Recovery & Understanding Narcissism
12:00 Again
14:45 Cheating
20:40 Coming from a Great Home
22:00 Being in the Spotlight
24:00 Remembrances of Abuse
30:00 The Trouble Finding People Who Love
32:00 Losing the Ability to Trust
36:00 Red Flags, Future Relationships, and Boundaries
40:40 Not Compromising & “The List”
43:00 Current Work
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
S1 (00:04):
What's going on here? It's like, I don't know what
you guys are all. You're all nuts. I have cancer.
This is what it is. And so Bravo started coming
in on me, saying I was in on a cancer scam.
I said, I don't know what you're talking about. I
don't scam anybody. I think I'm being scammed.
S2 (00:23):
Welcome to the Narcissist abuse recovery channel.
S3 (00:28):
Perdita. Hi, how are you today? It's good to see
you again.
S4 (00:31):
Oh my goodness. It's good to see you. I mean
I'm so excited about our second season. Oh my goodness.
I can't believe.
S3 (00:38):
Two second season of Narcissist Abuse Recovery Channel. It's great
to be here with you. Yes. Now you've had an
awful lot going on there out in LA, uh, with, uh,
the fires and stuff. I it's crazy out there, really.
S1 (00:53):
I'm not in LA. I'm in Orange County, so.
S3 (00:55):
That's Orange County.
S1 (00:55):
Vicki Hathaway to two hours away, but we're still getting
the residual effects from it. I came home last night
about 10:00 and opened up my sliding glass door. And
the pool is black. The entire.
S3 (01:07):
House.
S1 (01:07):
Black. The winds, I guess, were really bad. My umbrella
from the top deck was in the pool like it's
a mess. So I'm going to be cleaning for.
S3 (01:14):
Unbelievable.
S1 (01:15):
Yeah, we definitely got the residual of it. And there was,
you know, residual fires starting by arsonists just in our
area because the winds were high. They thought oh they
did it up in LA. Let's get them down here.
S3 (01:28):
Unbelievable.
S1 (01:29):
It's been bad.
S3 (01:30):
I don't know, Vicky. Whether you I don't know whether
you know or not. Perdita actually was feet on the
ground and was taken out. Water and supplies to people
who were hurting, particularly Altadena area. Is that correct? Did
I pronounce that right?
S4 (01:42):
Yeah. Um, Vicki. So I have an office in LA
and then in Orange County, Newport Beach, across from Fashion Island.
So nothing happened, obviously in Orange County about two weeks ago. Right.
It was only in LA. And so I got my
team together and we went out there to Altadena. You know,
(02:02):
it's very, um, it's low income area, right? And a
lot of them don't have home insurance. So I was
going out there and then now as of 2 or
3 days ago, it was in Talega. So it was
in actually in Orange County. And it's like you can't
make this stuff up. It's like, I feel like what
is happening. And then today I came to Olas Studios,
(02:24):
which is in San Diego, and then they had a fire.
So it's like.
S3 (02:28):
Yeah, I saw that.
S4 (02:29):
It's awful. It's just awful. It's heartbreaking. But we just
want to welcome you to our show. John and I
are very excited to just ask you some questions. Um,
I've been following your work for many, many years. I'm
very excited to have you on because you're an entrepreneur
and a female, obviously, and very strong. And I'm actually
(02:51):
an entrepreneur. I had my law firm 22 years ago.
And so I feel like we have things in common.
We probably know some of the same people, but it's
nice to just welcome you to our show.
S1 (03:03):
You're welcome. I appreciate it. And when I saw the
narcissistic abuse recovery, I didn't know there was even a
law firm representing the the representing the people that got abused.
I'm assuming you're doing that. Um, yes. I didn't even
know I was in a narcissistic relationship until it ended.
(03:23):
And while I was in it, it was it was
very confusing and very destructive to my strength as a
woman and a business owner and a mother of two.
Grandmother of four. Like, I just thought everybody should just
love each other and be kind. So, um, I was
open and excited to just hear what what this was
what you guys do. So, John, what do you do?
(03:44):
You're a coach and you're an author.
S3 (03:46):
I am, yeah. I'm actually, I run a channel called
Male Victims of Female Narcissists. And they're they're a group
of men out there who are kind of underrepresented in
the narcissistic community. And I dial in really to try
and help them through this as well, because they're getting
the same kind of abuse from some women, too, right? Yeah,
it's not specific. It's really it is not it's, you know,
(04:07):
from my experience, it's it's really across the board. And
narcissists do not show favoritism unfortunately. So you talk. How
did you. How did. Tell us about your experience a
little bit. I mean, you've got a story here we'd
love to hear.
S1 (04:20):
I sure do. It's actually, um. I was married nine
years to a gentleman from 21 to 29. And he
was in a narcissist. He was just lazy and a drunk.
So I was like, I had two kids with them.
I thought, okay, I'm going to divorce them. My parents
married 60 years. I never knew divorce. So my father
(04:40):
basically said, you have to get divorced or you're going
to raise your kids in a very dysfunctional environment. We
have we come from good stock and from Chicago, like
people don't get divorced. So I did I was 29
And I met a man working at, um, at the
company I was at. And he was not a narcissist either.
I was married to him for 16 years. It was just.
(05:00):
It was a loveless relationship. I started filming my TV
show and yeah, we went two separate paths. So I
just thought, okay, everybody, you know, gets a second chance
in love. And, you know, when I told Don, you know,
this just isn't working. We never called each other. I
traveled a lot for work. So did he. We were empty.
And so I just wanted love. I was thirsty for love.
(05:24):
And I was at an insurance conference, and this good
looking man, Brooks, um, came up to me and asked
me what I wanted for a cocktail. I'm like, no,
I'm not drinking tonight. He's like, man, what would you
like for cocktail with this Mississippi accent? And I'm like,
who are you? And where did you come from? He
was five years younger than me. He lived in Tupelo, Mississippi.
I'm from Orange County, California. It's just my second year
(05:46):
of a TV show. And remember, I just wanted to
find love. Somebody that just would love me. And he
showered me with love and prayers and, um, anything I
really was dreaming of having in another relationship he was
showing me. So I moved him to California. Um, bought
him all new clothes because he came up in Crocs
and Dockers. I'm like, okay, you're not going to fit in.
(06:08):
We have to go shopping. So went to Fashion Island,
went to South Coast Plaza. I got him a whole
new wardrobe, really great leather jackets, a really great Gucci shoes, Ferragamo.
I just decked him out with the belts that match and,
you know, he was like, oh, this is great. Um,
and then he got super controlling and super weird, and
he drank a lot and then got angry. And I
(06:29):
held on for five years because I just thought, okay,
if I can keep grooming them and tweaking them, we're
going to be fine. Um, and the people on my
show did not like him at all. They said he's
using you. And I just thought, you know, whether it's
a man or a woman, we can support the other person.
Like it's a typically in California, the women don't work
(06:50):
and we're the minority. Yeah. Um, and I just thought,
what's the difference? I'm going to support them. I moved
him out here and I'm going to just accept his love.
That's all I wanted was love love, love, love, love. So, um,
when time went through the relationship, 3 or 4 years later,
the girls kept saying, you know, he's just something creepy
(07:11):
about him. We don't trust him, blah, blah, blah. He
then tells me he has cancer, non-Hodgkin's lymphoma, stage three.
And I'm like, where did this come from? He goes, well,
I had it in my 30s and I'm 50 now.
And it came back. I'm like, how'd you know? Where'd
you go? And he goes, I do regular blood work.
So I was hook, line and sinker believing this man
(07:31):
had cancer and I would take him up to city
of Hope. Little did I know, he was sitting in
the garden. And then he'd come out with a band
aid on him. Like, what did they do, draw blood?
He's like, no, I had chemo. Well, my daughter's a nurse.
So I called Brianna. I said, something's not right. I
just drove an hour up to, you know, past Azusa
to pick him up, but he's been there all day.
(07:51):
He comes out with a bandaid on his arm and
she goes, mom, chemo is administered through a port. Did
he get a port put in? I'm like, no. They
checked his chest. There's no port. And I asked him.
He's like, what are you accusing me of? Lying? And
I'm like, I just don't know what's going on. I mean, I,
I'm paying for everything I love on you and I
don't know what's going on. He's like, Vicki, you're you're
(08:12):
hanging too much around the girls. They're all, you know,
out to get me. Um, and I got super defensive
on him. I was like, there is no way these
girls are going to ruin his life. He's trying to
create a new business here. He was in the insurance
business like me. That's how I met him at a conference.
And he's like, you know, what do you want me
(08:32):
to do? Show my medical records? I'm like, you might
have to. And then the girls.
S3 (08:36):
Good for you.
S1 (08:37):
They took it as the truth and they started asking
him for the medical records. And he's like, thank you.
By the way, I'm not sharing my medical records with anybody,
not even you. But if you have cancer, non-Hodgkin's lymphoma,
you would be showing me. At least he goes. You're
going to take that information and misconstrue it, because that's
what you do, and you twist things, and it's going
(08:57):
to come out different than what the truth is. I said,
then just show them your medical records. So I didn't
understand it. You know, I've had lots of health issues,
and I don't think anybody's privileged to my medical records
except my doctors. So I was believing that that was
the right thing to support him on not showing medical records.
And then it got deeper and deeper and deeper. And
he then created a document from Hoag Hospital or City
(09:21):
of Hope, one of the two that he said he
was being treated at on their letterhead. So what he
did is he went to the internet, took a letterhead logo,
took a logo and created his own letterhead, then went
to Google and created the treatment plan he was getting
for non-Hodgkin's lymphoma.
S3 (09:34):
Wow.
S1 (09:35):
He put it in in that letter. So he shows
it to me. He shows it to the cast members,
and they took a snapshot of it and started googling
the letterhead, and it was nowhere near the position of
the logo and the protocol for the the cocktail of
what he was taking was exactly off the internet, word
for word.
S5 (09:54):
Oh my goodness.
S1 (09:55):
What is going on here? He's like, I don't know
what you guys are all you're all nuts. I have cancer.
This is what it is. And so Bravo started coming
in on me saying I was in on a cancer scam.
I said, I don't know what you're talking about. I
don't scam anybody. I think I'm being scammed, I do,
I really do. So the way that they edited it
made it look like I was covering for something he
(10:16):
was doing and I was covering because I didn't think
the girls were entitled to any of his medical records.
But I went down a rabbit hole and I couldn't
get out of it. So in the middle of the night,
he got up and left and left in his car
and blocked me on everything, and I never talked to
him since. So that was a tough recovery for me.
I was I felt like I was going to throw
up and die like my my father was deceased from
(10:37):
Alzheimer's and my family lives in Illinois, and I didn't
have any family out here, and I felt like the
girls were all ganging up on me. And it was
it was a dark space. So I thought, okay, I'm
going to get some therapy. I don't even remember the
therapist at the time. And they're like, you were in
a narcissistic relationship. I'm like, I don't even know what
that word is. I don't know what it is. All
(10:59):
I know is I love this man because I wanted
to be loved more than anything. And he loved me.
I thought.
S3 (11:03):
Is that how you figured it out? Vicki, is that you? Actually,
you sat with a therapist and they go, oh, by
the way, hey, you're a victim of narcissistic abuse.
S1 (11:13):
They're exactly the one that said you've been in a
narcissistic relationship. I said, I don't know what that word is,
but I loved him and I wanted to be in
his life forever and ever. So after those 4 or
5 months passed, I was starting to get stronger. Coming
back to work. I mean, I was calling in sick
at my own company. I'm like, I can't, I can't
see clients, I can't, I can't function. So I realized, like,
(11:35):
I got to pull myself up by my bootstraps and
get my ass back to work because that will be
my strength. And so I did. And I went back
to work and I was still damaged and hurt. But
I just really thought my world was calling me to
move back to to Chicago, where all my family and
friends are. And so, um, craziest thing I went to a,
(11:57):
I was part of the Boys and Girls Club and
I went to the Angel Stadium, and I was an
ambassador at the time. Five months later and I met
the table for auctions, and this fucking good looking man
shows up with a suit and tie, very stern back.
He's like, uh, have I met you before? I'm like,
don't think so. And I was so closed off from
meeting anybody else. And little by little he's like, well,
(12:20):
I'm a I'm part of the Anaheim City Council. I'm
a retired, uh, cop. I'm a detective, I'm been retired
26 years, blah, blah, blah. I'm like, I don't really care.
I have an insurance business. Like, goodbye. Um, he's like,
can I give you can I give you my card?
I'm like, for what? Like, I was so disconnected and
(12:41):
so disinterested in any man because I thought they were
going to lie to me. And, um, and it ended
up going to lunch with them a week later, ended
up dating him for four years. He was a narcissist.
S5 (12:53):
Oh my God.
S1 (12:54):
Steve Lodge. And he led me on a rabbit hole
so perfect. Like brought my grandson's police cars for their toys.
Gave my kids. I have two children, $5,000 each for Christmas. Um,
showered me with a Louis Vuitton suitcase. Um, for Christmas. Just.
We got engaged. Three years later, I bought the ring. Um,
(13:18):
and he's like, I can't afford what you want to wear,
so if you want to buy it, go for it.
But let's get engaged. I'm like, okay. And that was
two years before we broke up. Little did I know, um,
through all this, he was a narcissist. And my. I
bought a house in Puerto Vallarta during Covid, and he
was retired. So he would go down there and stay
(13:40):
at my house, and then I would go every other week,
like Thursday to Monday. And he was starting to go
more often and not come home very much. And when
he would go to my house, I had a ring
camera outside my my hallway door. So it was a condo,
two houses on each floor. Yeah. And he would put
his hand over it and then do the combination and
go in.
S6 (13:59):
I'm like, oh.
S1 (14:00):
So I would call him and go, why? Why do
you have your hand over the camera? He's like, Vicki,
I'm tired of you looking at me all the time.
I'm like.
S5 (14:07):
I.
S1 (14:07):
Don't look at you. But I got an alert that
there was something wrong with the camera on my phone.
Then he would come in and he would take a
red solo cup and put it over my nest camera inside.
And then he would throw a party, but he forgot
to remember. I can hear everything. So he was having
women up there. He was having the guy across the hall. Uh,
he started to say he lives in Puerto Vallarta, that
(14:28):
it was his house. It was 100% my house. Um,
and then he got mad at me that I didn't
put him on his owner at the gate for access.
I said, you're a guest in my home and you're not.
S5 (14:40):
Yes, until.
S1 (14:41):
You pay for half for it and all the dues
and everything. So, long story short, um, he was bringing
his bimbo girlfriend to my condo complex. He rented a
one bedroom in the next tower, literally right across from
my house. And I could sit on my balcony. I
could see them out there drinking wine and having their
hors d'oeuvres. Um, and I spiraled down. So I got
(15:04):
an attorney out in Mexico, and I was able to
get a restraining order and get him locked out of
it because I said, I'm fearing for my life. He's
a cop. I don't know if he's got guns. I
don't know what to do. I'm here by myself, watching
him and his bimbo. Um, and that was his. So
I was his fifth engaged. Sixth engagement. She is his
(15:24):
fourth wife. So they ended up meeting at a restaurant
here in Mission Viejo. She's 35. He's 66. And they
ended up getting married in Puerto Vallarta, right near my
condo at one of the restaurants my dad built. So, um,
spiral down again, you know? And, um, it's been tough, like.
S5 (15:42):
Yeah, I don't trust.
S1 (15:44):
And so, you know, when I think about, like, trust
is earned, you know, you always say trust is earned.
I never knew that he was a narcissist. And I thought,
how can I? I mean, I'm really close with his mom.
His four kids love me. He they haven't talked to
their dad in three years. So I think that he
is a really great family. And I held every holiday,
(16:06):
every 4th of July, every Memorial Day, Thanksgiving, Christmas, New Year's.
I mean, I held everything at my big house and
I just thought I hit the jackpot. This guy is
everything I wanted. My family is in Illinois. His is here. Um,
my kids loved him. And until that happened.
S5 (16:22):
Yeah.
S4 (16:23):
I just want to say, um. It sounds like you've
been through a lot. I follow a little bit of
your story. Um, obviously on the show, it sounds like
you've been through a lot, and I don't think that
this this seems like it's the first time that you're
able to tell your story, right, without any edits and
without anybody sort of, um, you know, making you look
(16:46):
like you're, you know, you were the one that, you know,
was backing this guy that was faking cancer. I mean,
that's such a huge thing.
S5 (16:56):
So I saw a.
S1 (16:57):
Long time with Bravo on it. And they choose what
they did. They actually flew Brooks out to New York,
and he did a one on one with Andy Cohen.
And Brooks was like, Vicki was not in on anything.
I have cancer, I'm not going to show my real records.
He was adamant that he still had cancer. He when
he left my home. Just so you know, both of
(17:17):
them are married quickly, like they got married quickly. And
I'm like, what woman would ever want to marry him?
Knowing what the story. I mean, it was a public
on the front page of every page six, every newspaper.
You know, Brooks, there is faked cancer. Um, but they
married him, and he probably had a story. Well, it
was for the show, and we created this reality. It was.
(17:38):
It was real. It was raw. It was. It was horrible.
S5 (17:41):
So, yeah, he.
S1 (17:42):
Can twist it however he wants, but that's how. That's
how it happened, you know?
S5 (17:46):
Yeah.
S3 (17:47):
You know, you're the first person I've, I've talked to
that has the same story. I actually had skin cancer
on my back. And I went home and and told
my ex. I said, by the way, I've got, you know,
I've got skin cancer. And she goes, oh, I had that.
No you didn't. You had a mole removed. And it
was not cancerous. At least that's what you told me.
She goes, oh no, no, I the doctor made a
(18:08):
mistake and I'm going to call him and tell him
that he made a mistake. And I really had cancer.
S5 (18:14):
Right.
S4 (18:14):
And I don't know, I mean, our listeners obviously know this,
but John was in a 28 year marriage.
S3 (18:21):
27. It only felt like 90 years.
S4 (18:24):
A 27 year marriage. It took him two years to
get out because he wanted his children to be grown
and go to college. So he. He understands narcissism and
now he coaches other men and actually women too. And
then for me, you know, I've been doing family law
for 22 years. I was in a narcissistic marriage for
seven of those years. So, Vicki, if you can imagine,
(18:46):
I was helping clients with their divorces and yet I
was stuck in a narcissistic. Actually, it was a malignant narcissist.
And people say, you know, you should have seen that coming. Like,
how could I have seen that coming? Right? It's like
they do the love bombing. They do everything in the beginning.
It's like your dream guy, like you're saying right about Brooks,
(19:07):
like your dream guy. And then all of a sudden
they flip the switch. And so now that's why I
care deeply for my clients. I represent the innocent spouses.
I like to say, and, you know, not every spouse
is innocent, but at least they don't know about the narcissism, right?
I feel like it takes two people in a marriage,
(19:28):
but in a narcissistic relationship, it only takes one to
really screw it up because they're mentally ill. So this
is why I'm so passionate about who I represent and
really represent the underdog.
S1 (19:41):
There's no sign on them saying I'm a narcissist. And oh,
by the way, I'm going to manipulate you and I'm
going to make you feel less than. And I'm going
to make you want me so bad that you'll never
leave me. Like, I really feel like I wanted both
of those men so bad that I would never leave them,
that I thought, okay, I got more money than them.
I got the strength and the power and why would
(20:02):
they ever leave me? Why would they ever hurt me?
So it was a strength that I felt that nobody's
going to hurt me, or they're not going to leave me,
because why would they? Where were they going to go?
S5 (20:10):
Right.
S6 (20:11):
Yeah.
S3 (20:11):
Was there a was there a time I know that
you've encountered two so far as you've done some of
your therapy and kind of worked on your, on yourself,
and I know you have. Um, was there a point
in time, have you, have you identified that there were
people in your family that kind of predispose you to
some of this, because I know, I know, for me,
I found kind of significant tendencies this way in my
own family. And it's not a rule. But sometimes it
(20:34):
happens as you, you do your, your self discovery.
S1 (20:37):
No, my family is pretty perfect. I mean, I have to.
S5 (20:39):
Say that we're.
S1 (20:40):
Incredible, and I just, um. I wanted that love, you know,
I wanted that love.
S5 (20:46):
And I would.
S1 (20:46):
Never I could just to get it. And I think
my daddy was an incredible role model, father. I taught
everything business wise from him. He died early, Alzheimer's onset
at 59, so I lost him early. But, um, I,
my parents were married, you know, 50, 60 years. And
I just wanted that love. I wanted my my family
(21:07):
is all still married. Nobody gets divorced and coming to California,
I'm like, shit, you know, I'm one of those statistics
out here. One out of every two are getting divorced
or more. Um, I think if I still lived in Chicago, I.
And I know this to be true, I'd still be
married to Don. Don was a great man. I. We
got distant. Marriage is due, and I met Brooks at
(21:30):
an insurance conference, and he was love bombing me. I mean, just.
S5 (21:33):
Yeah.
S1 (21:34):
An incredible, you know, chemistry I had with him. And
I didn't have it with Don anymore, so I fell
prey to that.
S5 (21:41):
Yeah.
S4 (21:42):
I often talk about, like, on my social media about
being in LA, being having been almost born in LA.
I came here when I was three from Iran. I
feel like having the spotlight on you is a blessing
and a curse. I know you had your company way
before Bravo came along, but it was actually a blessing
(22:05):
for you because you got more exposure that maybe you
wouldn't have had. But then it was also a curse
because didn't one of your interviews recently, you say, look,
if the if the Bravo cameras weren't on, I think
I'd still be married to Don.
S1 (22:18):
I know I would be.
S5 (22:20):
I know I would.
S1 (22:21):
And he was a good man. I lost a good
man searching for something that I could have probably gotten
with him. Um, but I just, you know, I was traveling,
and he would never call me where I was. We
were just growing apart. And then I fell into this.
Love bombing is exactly the right word. Narcissistic chaos. It
(22:41):
was chaos all the time. We would go out, I'd
be like, Brookshire, you're on drink number three. Drink number four.
You get to be an asshole. And he's like, I'm good.
I'm becoming an asshole because you're pressuring me not to drink.
I'm like, no opposite, you know? And then I would
start saying, well, maybe if I don't say anything, he
won't become an asshole. And then he would just get
drunk and become an asshole anyway. So it was like
(23:02):
I never knew what day it was going to be,
that he would over drink and then start yelling at
me about what I did wrong that day.
S5 (23:08):
Yeah, that's.
S1 (23:08):
A constant.
S3 (23:09):
That makes for a ridiculous, ridiculously chaotic home. Yeah. And
and and a war zone actually more often than a
place of peace than it should be.
S4 (23:20):
Do you feel like. Because I know I struggle with this. Um.
When you're successful, woman, as you are. I mean, anybody
can say that about you, right? Do you feel like
you were trying to help these men come up to
your level, as opposed to what we really should be
doing is what I have now, thankfully, with my husband,
(23:43):
is we're at the same level, or he's like a
little bit above in the sense that, like, I this
is what I hear lately is that like, don't don't
make a guy come to your level. Meet him where
he's at. You know what I'm saying? And so I
feel like, at least from hearing what you're saying with
Brooks and both Brooks and Steve, you were trying to
(24:06):
bring them up to your level. Although Steve had, you know,
obviously he was career minded and he had his own career,
but I know he ran for for office and like,
nobody knew him, right?
S5 (24:18):
Yeah.
S1 (24:19):
He wanted to be governor of California. I'm like, what
political experience do you have? Well, I was a cop.
I ran this and this and this. I'm like, all
this non-for-profit stuff. I go, you're kidding me. Goes. But
with your followers, I even if I could just 10%
of them. Vicki, I will win the governor of California.
So I was like, okay, I'm 100% behind it. I
was funding it and supporting him. And he was having
(24:41):
an affair with his 35 year old the whole time.
S4 (24:44):
You can't make this up. You really can't.
S5 (24:46):
Make this up. Yeah. You met her at a bar.
S1 (24:48):
She's a schoolteacher. And she sat there and said, oh,
you're famous. And, you know, he goes, well, Vicki and
I aren't together anymore. The bartender who became a friend
of mine, she's like, they met here. I'm like, who
met here? There's this little Italian place in Mission Viejo.
I'm like, what are you talking about, Tina? She's like, yeah,
they met here. And she was eyeing him for weeks
because Steve would always go there from 4:00 to 6:00
(25:08):
because he was bored and he would have his 2
or 3 glasses of wine call me and say what
time you leave in the office. I'm like, I don't know.
I should be home by six. 630. I'm making dinner tonight.
He's like, no, no, no, I'm going to pick it
up from this restaurant. I'm already here. I'm like, every
day you're there drinking like, that's that's so ugly. It's
so unattractive. Um, but he was bored and so he
didn't win the governor. And then she recognized him from
(25:30):
my TV show and felt like he was. He was
what she wanted. And so she lived in an apartment
right behind. And then he would pull up to my
$3 million house and have his, you know, beautiful life
with me, but screwing her in an apartment around the
corner in a parking lot. So, I don't know.
S5 (25:48):
It just.
S1 (25:49):
It was I have to say one more thing before I.
S5 (25:51):
Forget. Sure.
S1 (25:52):
What you what you said was exactly true. So let's
just say I'm here and Stephen Brooks were here, okay?
I felt because I was I never looked for money
because I could support myself. I never thought money was the.
But it is for men. It is their ego. It's
their strength. Right. So I but I can't control what
(26:13):
you make for a living. I'm just going to do
what I need to do to support myself and my
three houses and my kids and my grandkids. And I'm
going to do what I have to do. Whatever you
want to do, go do. But they both want to
cling on to me. And what can we do? Appearances together?
Can we do a talk show together? I'm like, what
are you talking about? You know this. This isn't about you.
(26:35):
You go find you and then I'm good with me.
So that's exactly true, that I felt they would never
leave me because where would they go? Right. So he
married somebody. I mean, he gets his $6,000 a month pension,
and she. She was a schoolteacher. But what the narcissists do,
I don't know if you know, but they they make
sure that your whole center of your universe has no friends,
(26:57):
no family, no anything. And they.
S6 (26:58):
Absolutely.
S1 (26:59):
They hang you. So she quit her job as a
school teacher in Mission Viejo, and they went in a
car ride for a year and ended up in, um,
the Ozarks or something. So it's it's she's now no
longer has her friends, doesn't have her family, doesn't have
her life. She was never married before. So. So now
she's got Steve. That's it.
S5 (27:19):
It's got Steve. Yeah.
S4 (27:20):
They isolate. They're very good at isolating. I remember with
my ex-husband, we lived. We lived in the Valley at
the time. And my father, who was much, much older,
and he passed away 13 years ago. But he was
I was like, I just want to go stop by
my father's house. Like, I just want to go see
my mom and dad. And, you know, being Persian, I
(27:40):
know you know, a bunch of Persians in Orange County, like,
we're so family orientated. And he was like, absolutely not.
And I was like, what do you mean? Like, it
didn't even make sense. It was like, I just want
to stop by for five minutes. And I'll never forget this. Vicki.
Like when my dad was eventually he was, you know,
in the hospital when he was on his deathbed. And
(28:01):
I remember just begging my ex-husband, like, I like, I
will give you a Rolex watch, like I will give you, like,
literally like a Ferrari. I will give you anything you want.
Just come and see my dad. And he did. And
he finally did. And. And then my dad actually, like,
asked him to pray for him. And I was like, dad,
(28:21):
you're like asking the devil to pray for you, but
go ahead. And so but that was the last time
that my dad passed away. And it's like, I'll never
I'll never forgive someone for that, right? Like, it's just
like it was such a traumatic thing.
S5 (28:35):
Yeah.
S4 (28:35):
And so we totally get it. We totally get what
you've been through. Um, thank you so much for just
coming on. I know you're super busy. Um, but thank
you so much. We. The reason why we started this
podcast was that we wanted to help the community understand
what narcissism is. Um, it's not just everybody says, like,
(28:56):
my ex is a narcissist. Like, no, this is a
mental condition, and you need to run away from these people. Like,
the first sign of somebody is using you for whatever.
For you. Like air time. Bravo. Your money, your houses.
You got to leave. Like this is a full stop.
Do not pass go. Do not collect $200.
S5 (29:17):
And I have a question.
S1 (29:19):
I have a question on that, because that makes sense.
But then I also say there's a lot of people
that I've met at my age group, I'm 62, that
have been married, have been divorced, have lost businesses, have gone,
struggled financially, and that's what justified me being with both
(29:39):
Brooks and Steve is because I didn't I didn't care
if they were Uber wealthy. I know a lot of
the women in Newport say I would never marry anybody
with less than worth less than $5 million net worth,
I don't care. I mean, I got my houses, I
got my life, I got my fancy car. But I
get mentally, why you don't want to go below you
because then you feel like you've got power over them.
(30:00):
I felt like I had power over them and they
would never leave me. Um, but I also don't want
to say okay what's your what's your net worth.
S5 (30:09):
Mhm.
S1 (30:09):
I don't know what the right thing to do is
anymore because people have financial struggles around here and they
live beyond their means and.
S5 (30:17):
Right.
S6 (30:17):
Well you know, there there there are people.
S3 (30:20):
I think I think, Vicki, that I know narcissists are,
are users, you know, first and foremost. And, and they
don't even understand love. So the, the hard part of
it being in the position you're in, like with, you know,
being a person of means like that is, you know,
it's it's easy for them to think, okay, well she'll
just take care of it. So so users are going
(30:42):
to be drawn to that, just like they're drawn to people,
you know, who are just very, very empathetic and who
put up with this stuff and are long suffering and, and,
and the saddest part of this is that, you know,
while they're using you and pretending up front is that
your love is real and, and and you wind up
on the other side of this just, just completely devastated,
(31:05):
you know? I know you had trouble working. I was
ready to put a gun to my head, and it's
it's it. It puts you in this horrible scenario, even,
where you have trouble working and focusing and those kinds
of things. And and I'm so glad you reached out
for help. Was there was there something that you can
think of like, is there a good piece of advice
that you got that kind of helped you through this
(31:27):
recovery process that you might share with us something that
you thought, man, this was this is powerful and me
getting through this.
S5 (31:35):
So I prayed a lot.
S1 (31:38):
Um, but.
S5 (31:39):
One.
S1 (31:39):
Of the biggest things that I was able to do
is journal. So I have a journal next to my bed,
and I journal. And when I look back on some
of those feelings and notes, and if I didn't have
my journal with me, I would go into my mobile
notes on my phone, and I would just talk into
it and say, this is how I'm feeling today. This
is why I'm feeling this way. And looking back on
(31:59):
some of that stuff, it was like, I'm surprised I
survived it because.
S5 (32:03):
I really.
S1 (32:03):
Didn't care about living anymore. I really didn't, and.
S5 (32:06):
I thought it.
S1 (32:07):
Happened to me twice. It's going to happen to me
again because I'm empathetic. I'm kind and loving and and giving.
And why would somebody hurt me? Well, two men that
I gave ten years of my life to hurt me deeply.
And so I thought, I can't get those ten years back.
I don't want to do another ten years, you know.
So it is it is a I'm dating somebody now
(32:29):
for three years. Really great guy. It's actually Olivia's father
that helped me get this all booked. Um, but I'm cautiously, um,
looking at everything. It's still three years, and I'm like.
S5 (32:40):
Um, I.
S1 (32:41):
How do I know that this is.
S5 (32:42):
Right?
S4 (32:43):
I would, I would say to Vicky, like, boundary work
is really important. Like just to put establish very healthy
boundaries for yourself. And, you know, obviously for our listeners, like, okay,
if a guy does or a girl does XYZ, that's it. Right?
Like if, if, if I have to help you. Of course.
We are called to be Helpmates, right? We know that biblically,
(33:06):
John and I are born again believers, so we're called
to be helpmates, but we're not called to do all
the work on our own, you know. And so as women,
we have to recognize that I'm here to be your helpmate.
I'm not here to do it all on your own.
And like you said, with Brooks, like I flew him
out here, I did this, I took him shopping, I
did all I mean, I.
S1 (33:26):
Know how hard.
S4 (33:27):
Yeah, I know how all those things cost. I remember
one time, like, he got new teeth or something on
the show, and everyone was like.
S1 (33:33):
I'm like, you got shitty teeth, got new teeth, got
him a new car. He's got to fit into Orange County. Yeah.
And you know, I didn't want to move to Mississippi.
So I'm like this, this is a big deal. Like,
you got to fit in if you want to be
with me. Yes.
S6 (33:45):
So, you know, one of.
S3 (33:46):
The things, one of the things I love about what
you're doing right now and I think is, is nothing
but positive for yourself is you're taking time. Um, as
I look back on my own journey with with my
ex and, you know, 27 years, like I said, I
felt no, no longer than 90. Um, one of one
of the things I surfaced in myself was I didn't
take the kind of time I need. I needed to
(34:08):
really know the I didn't take the time. I needed
to really know her. And I think you need to
see somebody in good times. You need to see somebody
in bad times. You need to see them under stress.
You need to see them. When things are wonderful, you
need to see them through, you know, to see how
they respond. And are they are they drawing close to
you or are they pushing away? Are they are they
using you or are they loving you? And these these
(34:29):
things are real qualitative differences that I think over time
you really discover. And that's, you know, three years is
a long time. And I still understand your hesitance. I
haven't dated yet really. And and I don't know if
I will. It's just it's hard to go put yourself
in that position again because you've opened yourself up and
(34:49):
your love is genuine. And to go through that again
is just excruciating.
S4 (34:53):
Right. And then also she has she has children too.
I know they're adults, but to bring your to bring
them back into your children's. Like you said, one of
your one of your exes, Steve, was like buying them
things and giving them money. And you know, these are
like stepchildren, right? I know you didn't marry him, thank God, but, um,
so I'm sure you're very cautious, but it sounds like
(35:15):
you're on the path of recovery. And that's why we
call it narcissistic abuse recovery channel, because I've been, you know,
I'm married now. Three years. It took me eight years, Vicki.
So I was married for seven. Took me eight years
to be single. And listen, that wasn't easy because I
like to be married. And I know you've said that before. Like,
(35:35):
you're like, I'm a marriage material person, you know? And
I don't.
S1 (35:39):
Date, and I date to me, that's it.
S4 (35:41):
Date to me, that's like, hey, listen, if you get
nothing else from this podcast today, date to mate is
is the word from the Lord. Okay. Um, and so
now I'm married, you know, three years. But it doesn't
mean that I'm still not triggered. right? So I get
triggered sometimes and I'm like, okay, I need to take
a deep breath. This is from my past. So, you know,
(36:02):
just constantly going to counseling. You said journaling. I think
that's wisdom.
S6 (36:08):
I was really.
S3 (36:08):
Helpful for me as well. I took to journaling and.
S1 (36:11):
Our emotions change day by day. There's some days I
feel super strong, like I got this. And then there's
other times where I get a red flag and I go, shit,
am I falling back into this acceptance? Because there's some
things I will not accept. I will not accept overdrinking
I hate drinking, I hate drunks, I can't do it.
I don't want to be around it. And when I
(36:32):
see that happening, it was with Brooks, it was with Steve. And,
you know, my relationship, not so much. But if I
see an over drinker, that's a trigger for me going,
you aren't in control. That's a loser. Like, I get
all these things go into my brain and. Yeah, um.
S4 (36:48):
It's a big red flag and that's a boundary, you know,
that's like, this is my healthy boundary. You know, I
don't have 100, but I have like five deal breakers.
And and so I agree with you. I think drinking
brings out the worst. It makes people cheat. Sometimes they
don't even want to cheat. Like. And we know like
you're in Newport, right? I'm in Newport. It's like, that's
(37:09):
just the way of life. By the way, John, I
know John's in Atlanta, so that's just a way of life.
S3 (37:14):
Oh, they drink here too.
S1 (37:15):
I don't put myself in that situation. I don't go
out to the Javier's into the. I don't go out
unless it's with Michael or, you know, 2 or 4 girlfriends,
and we. I don't accept drinks from other men. Oh,
aren't you on the housewives of Orange County like I
used to be? Next. Like I don't open that door.
That door is always closed with a padlock on it.
And I think been out with a lot of married women,
(37:37):
single women. That door is always open. Like, oh, he
looks like he might have money. Look at his shoes.
Look at his belt. Like, who cares about the money?
What does he like as a person? So because they
don't have a career, they don't have the strength to
support themselves, many of them that they're looking for the next.
S4 (37:54):
Oh yeah, they're always looking for the next come up. And,
you know, unfortunately I represent some people like that in
Orange County, but they're always looking for the next come up.
And you know, they're like, you can see them, right, Vicky?
They're like sitting at dinner with their significant other or spouse,
and they're looking around like, when I'm at a place
with my husband, I'm not looking around. I have the prize.
(38:17):
I'm with the actual prize. And so I think you've
done a lot of great work. Thank you so much
for being here. Um, it's.
S3 (38:25):
So good to meet you.
S4 (38:26):
Is there anything else that you want, like your parting
bits of knowledge that you want people to know before,
before we end today.
S1 (38:34):
Go slow. I think that's the biggest thing. And when
you see the red flags get therapy, is it a
red flag or is it an orange flag or a
yellow flag? Like not everything has to be a red flag.
So some things we have to show grace and say, okay,
you're you're doing this and you're not understanding that it's
not acceptable to me. And if there's no change, then
(38:55):
get out. I mean, there's there's other opportunities out there.
I'm not. I don't enjoy being alone. I've always, you know,
had a relationship. So, um, if this relationship doesn't work,
for whatever horrible reason, um, I would go back to Illinois.
Nobody's divorced in Illinois. They're all super happy that it's.
(39:15):
The culture here is very dysfunctional, I think, for. That's
why my daughter moved. She said, you know, mom, if
I stay in California, I'm going to be one of
the the victims of my husband going out or lying
or whatever, whatever. It's not all true. But there is
a pattern here that I don't want to get sucked into.
So everybody is prettier than the next. Literally. I mean,
(39:37):
everybody is prettier than the next. And you feel a
ton of competition and, you know, it's just.
S4 (39:44):
You know, it's hard. Uh, actually, John might not know this.
The divorce rate in LA is 62%. The divorce rate
in Newport Beach is 72% for your first marriage. So.
And then it goes up your second marriage. And then
your third marriage is like. Like you will be divorced.
So it's it's like, no.
S7 (40:04):
That's me. I'm in.
S3 (40:06):
Illinois. Here I come, like 85%.
S4 (40:09):
I'm telling you this as a divorce attorney. So it's
it's it's just bad. She's absolutely right. And my husband's
actually from his parents are from Chicago. And then they
migrated to, um, to Michigan. So he's got very good,
you know, old school values. And, you know, it sounds
like the person you're with now is the same and
is not looking for anything, just wants to partner with
(40:31):
what you're doing.
S1 (40:32):
So I did a list. So those of you who
listeners I did a list of what I will not
compromise on.
S3 (40:39):
And awesome.
S1 (40:40):
It was 18 things in my mobile notes. So my
friend Kelly Dodd set us up and we went to
dinner and I said, oh, by the way, he's like,
can I have your number? I said, here's 18 things
that I will not compromise on. And he's like, we
just met. I go, I don't care. You're not getting
my number. Non-smoker non no drugs. Got to be an entrepreneur.
Got to not be from California. And I know for
(41:02):
me it was my faith. You got to be a
believer in Jesus Christ. I went through every even political
I went through everything. Got to be six feet or taller,
got to wear cowboy boots at times. I love a
country guy. And I looked out and he was wearing
cowboy boots. I'm like, oh, Jesus.
S7 (41:15):
Um, so it.
S1 (41:17):
Was a cycle of things I will not compromise on.
And you got your money, I got mine. We're never
going to cross it over. Um, so I did it.
It was nice because I just laid it out. I didn't.
S7 (41:28):
Have.
S1 (41:29):
To. Yeah, I didn't have to wait five months and say, oh,
by the way, these are my 18 things. So those
listeners that are listening set your rules for yourself. And
I think that's what really helped me, um, is to
just say this is non-negotiable for me. You got to,
you know, you got to have your own money. Got to.
I don't care what it is. I don't care if
it's 500,000 or 1 million or 10 million, I don't care.
(41:50):
You got to have your money. You got to be
an entrepreneur. You can't be an eight to fiver because I'm.
I'm out on the road a lot. I'm traveling. I
can't have somebody say, oh, I can't. I can't go
on that trip with you because I only got two
weeks vacation pay. Screw that. You know. Yeah.
S7 (42:03):
No.
S4 (42:03):
And again, that's your boundary. And I love that idea
of a list. I actually had a list, too. And
when I showed my mom the list, this is before
I was married, obviously, she was like, how are you
going to find this person? She's like, there's no. I said, mom,
I'm not compromising. Do you understand? And she literally was like,
there is no way. If you ask my mom, my
(42:23):
mom is in her 90s. I can't give her real
age because she'll kill me. She literally goes, your husband, John,
is every single one of these things. Like literally every
single thing. So I think that that's a great suggestion.
S1 (42:37):
You pray for it. You, you you feel entitled to this.
This is your this can be your future and you
own it. I'm owning it. This is what I. This
is what I want now. I'll stay.
S3 (42:48):
And you don't settle for less.
S7 (42:50):
Mhm.
S3 (42:51):
Yep. Vicki, we're all entrepreneurs here too. And you're an
entrepreneur and you do insurance. And there are people who
are local who are going to who are looking for some.
How can they find you, give you a little plug.
S1 (43:03):
Your license in every state. So.
S7 (43:05):
Okay.
S1 (43:05):
Yeah. We just go to Coto Insurance.com Coto and put
in your information and we'll get back to you.
S3 (43:11):
Fantastic.
S7 (43:11):
And then you also.
S4 (43:12):
Have a podcast. So tell us a little bit about
your podcast.
S7 (43:15):
Yeah.
S1 (43:15):
So we're about six seven months in now. It's called
My friend My soulmate, my podcast. So there was an
episode where I was yelling at Tamara. I said, you're
supposed to be my friend. It was about Brooke's my soulmate,
my sister, and we named the podcast after me, yelling
at her. And it's my friend, my soulmate, my podcast.
S3 (43:33):
That's awesome.
S1 (43:33):
No. And it's it's fun. I just taped an episode
a couple days ago in Puerto Vallarta with my brother.
It's just, you know, for me, it's about showing my
viewers and my fans my life now off the show. And, um,
it hurts sometimes to know that Bravo has taken another
route and not included me. But I know that it's
(43:54):
the right thing for me. I know God invented, intervened, and,
you know, basically said, if you want this relationship to flourish,
if you want the relationship with your kids and your business,
you can't be on a reality TV show expecting it
to turn out good because they just want the drama
and the bullshit.
S7 (44:11):
So yeah.
S1 (44:12):
Um, even though it hurts and I lost a big paycheck,
I just look at it's just money. I always can
make more money, but I I've been a very good
steward of money. So those of you that are listeners
just save more than you ever think you're gonna ever need,
because you never know when you're going to need it. So, um, I, um,
you know, I just lived by that rule, and I've
(44:35):
been able to take care of myself.
S3 (44:38):
Awesome. Vicki Gunvalson here on the Narcissistic Abuse Recovery Channel.
Thank you so much for being.
S7 (44:44):
Here.
S3 (44:44):
With us today. So good to connect. Yeah we will
we will. Perdita. So good to see you as well. And, uh,
and we're out. Thank you so much for listening today.
S8 (44:56):
Thank you for listening to the Narcissist Abuse Recovery Channel.
Be sure to follow and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts,
and be sure to follow us on Instagram with the
handle narc Dot podcast. The guest views, thoughts and opinions
expressed are their own. The information presented is for general
information purposes only and is not intended to be legal advice.
(45:18):
The co-hosts are not licensed therapists. Seek professional help as
information is often state specific.
What's going on here? It's like, I don't know what
you guys are all. You're all nuts. I have cancer.
This is what it is. And so Bravo started coming
in on me, saying I was in on a cancer scam.
I said, I don't know what you're talking about. I
don't scam anybody. I think I'm being scammed.
S2 (00:23):
Welcome to the Narcissist abuse recovery channel.
S3 (00:28):
Perdita. Hi, how are you today? It's good to see
you again.
S4 (00:31):
Oh my goodness. It's good to see you. I mean
I'm so excited about our second season. Oh my goodness.
I can't believe.
S3 (00:38):
Two second season of Narcissist Abuse Recovery Channel. It's great
to be here with you. Yes. Now you've had an
awful lot going on there out in LA, uh, with, uh,
the fires and stuff. I it's crazy out there, really.
S1 (00:53):
I'm not in LA. I'm in Orange County, so.
S3 (00:55):
That's Orange County.
S1 (00:55):
Vicki Hathaway to two hours away, but we're still getting
the residual effects from it. I came home last night
about 10:00 and opened up my sliding glass door. And
the pool is black. The entire.
S3 (01:07):
House.
S1 (01:07):
Black. The winds, I guess, were really bad. My umbrella
from the top deck was in the pool like it's
a mess. So I'm going to be cleaning for.
S3 (01:14):
Unbelievable.
S1 (01:15):
Yeah, we definitely got the residual of it. And there was,
you know, residual fires starting by arsonists just in our
area because the winds were high. They thought oh they
did it up in LA. Let's get them down here.
S3 (01:28):
Unbelievable.
S1 (01:29):
It's been bad.
S3 (01:30):
I don't know, Vicky. Whether you I don't know whether
you know or not. Perdita actually was feet on the
ground and was taken out. Water and supplies to people
who were hurting, particularly Altadena area. Is that correct? Did
I pronounce that right?
S4 (01:42):
Yeah. Um, Vicki. So I have an office in LA
and then in Orange County, Newport Beach, across from Fashion Island.
So nothing happened, obviously in Orange County about two weeks ago. Right.
It was only in LA. And so I got my
team together and we went out there to Altadena. You know,
(02:02):
it's very, um, it's low income area, right? And a
lot of them don't have home insurance. So I was
going out there and then now as of 2 or
3 days ago, it was in Talega. So it was
in actually in Orange County. And it's like you can't
make this stuff up. It's like, I feel like what
is happening. And then today I came to Olas Studios,
(02:24):
which is in San Diego, and then they had a fire.
So it's like.
S3 (02:28):
Yeah, I saw that.
S4 (02:29):
It's awful. It's just awful. It's heartbreaking. But we just
want to welcome you to our show. John and I
are very excited to just ask you some questions. Um,
I've been following your work for many, many years. I'm
very excited to have you on because you're an entrepreneur
and a female, obviously, and very strong. And I'm actually
(02:51):
an entrepreneur. I had my law firm 22 years ago.
And so I feel like we have things in common.
We probably know some of the same people, but it's
nice to just welcome you to our show.
S1 (03:03):
You're welcome. I appreciate it. And when I saw the
narcissistic abuse recovery, I didn't know there was even a
law firm representing the the representing the people that got abused.
I'm assuming you're doing that. Um, yes. I didn't even
know I was in a narcissistic relationship until it ended.
(03:23):
And while I was in it, it was it was
very confusing and very destructive to my strength as a
woman and a business owner and a mother of two.
Grandmother of four. Like, I just thought everybody should just
love each other and be kind. So, um, I was
open and excited to just hear what what this was
what you guys do. So, John, what do you do?
(03:44):
You're a coach and you're an author.
S3 (03:46):
I am, yeah. I'm actually, I run a channel called
Male Victims of Female Narcissists. And they're they're a group
of men out there who are kind of underrepresented in
the narcissistic community. And I dial in really to try
and help them through this as well, because they're getting
the same kind of abuse from some women, too, right? Yeah,
it's not specific. It's really it is not it's, you know,
(04:07):
from my experience, it's it's really across the board. And
narcissists do not show favoritism unfortunately. So you talk. How
did you. How did. Tell us about your experience a
little bit. I mean, you've got a story here we'd
love to hear.
S1 (04:20):
I sure do. It's actually, um. I was married nine
years to a gentleman from 21 to 29. And he
was in a narcissist. He was just lazy and a drunk.
So I was like, I had two kids with them.
I thought, okay, I'm going to divorce them. My parents
married 60 years. I never knew divorce. So my father
(04:40):
basically said, you have to get divorced or you're going
to raise your kids in a very dysfunctional environment. We
have we come from good stock and from Chicago, like
people don't get divorced. So I did I was 29
And I met a man working at, um, at the
company I was at. And he was not a narcissist either.
I was married to him for 16 years. It was just.
(05:00):
It was a loveless relationship. I started filming my TV
show and yeah, we went two separate paths. So I
just thought, okay, everybody, you know, gets a second chance
in love. And, you know, when I told Don, you know,
this just isn't working. We never called each other. I
traveled a lot for work. So did he. We were empty.
And so I just wanted love. I was thirsty for love.
(05:24):
And I was at an insurance conference, and this good
looking man, Brooks, um, came up to me and asked
me what I wanted for a cocktail. I'm like, no,
I'm not drinking tonight. He's like, man, what would you
like for cocktail with this Mississippi accent? And I'm like,
who are you? And where did you come from? He
was five years younger than me. He lived in Tupelo, Mississippi.
I'm from Orange County, California. It's just my second year
(05:46):
of a TV show. And remember, I just wanted to
find love. Somebody that just would love me. And he
showered me with love and prayers and, um, anything I
really was dreaming of having in another relationship he was
showing me. So I moved him to California. Um, bought
him all new clothes because he came up in Crocs
and Dockers. I'm like, okay, you're not going to fit in.
(06:08):
We have to go shopping. So went to Fashion Island,
went to South Coast Plaza. I got him a whole
new wardrobe, really great leather jackets, a really great Gucci shoes, Ferragamo.
I just decked him out with the belts that match and,
you know, he was like, oh, this is great. Um,
and then he got super controlling and super weird, and
he drank a lot and then got angry. And I
(06:29):
held on for five years because I just thought, okay,
if I can keep grooming them and tweaking them, we're
going to be fine. Um, and the people on my
show did not like him at all. They said he's
using you. And I just thought, you know, whether it's
a man or a woman, we can support the other person.
Like it's a typically in California, the women don't work
(06:50):
and we're the minority. Yeah. Um, and I just thought,
what's the difference? I'm going to support them. I moved
him out here and I'm going to just accept his love.
That's all I wanted was love love, love, love, love. So, um,
when time went through the relationship, 3 or 4 years later,
the girls kept saying, you know, he's just something creepy
(07:11):
about him. We don't trust him, blah, blah, blah. He
then tells me he has cancer, non-Hodgkin's lymphoma, stage three.
And I'm like, where did this come from? He goes, well,
I had it in my 30s and I'm 50 now.
And it came back. I'm like, how'd you know? Where'd
you go? And he goes, I do regular blood work.
So I was hook, line and sinker believing this man
(07:31):
had cancer and I would take him up to city
of Hope. Little did I know, he was sitting in
the garden. And then he'd come out with a band
aid on him. Like, what did they do, draw blood?
He's like, no, I had chemo. Well, my daughter's a nurse.
So I called Brianna. I said, something's not right. I
just drove an hour up to, you know, past Azusa
to pick him up, but he's been there all day.
(07:51):
He comes out with a bandaid on his arm and
she goes, mom, chemo is administered through a port. Did
he get a port put in? I'm like, no. They
checked his chest. There's no port. And I asked him.
He's like, what are you accusing me of? Lying? And
I'm like, I just don't know what's going on. I mean, I,
I'm paying for everything I love on you and I
don't know what's going on. He's like, Vicki, you're you're
(08:12):
hanging too much around the girls. They're all, you know,
out to get me. Um, and I got super defensive
on him. I was like, there is no way these
girls are going to ruin his life. He's trying to
create a new business here. He was in the insurance
business like me. That's how I met him at a conference.
And he's like, you know, what do you want me
(08:32):
to do? Show my medical records? I'm like, you might
have to. And then the girls.
S3 (08:36):
Good for you.
S1 (08:37):
They took it as the truth and they started asking
him for the medical records. And he's like, thank you.
By the way, I'm not sharing my medical records with anybody,
not even you. But if you have cancer, non-Hodgkin's lymphoma,
you would be showing me. At least he goes. You're
going to take that information and misconstrue it, because that's
what you do, and you twist things, and it's going
(08:57):
to come out different than what the truth is. I said,
then just show them your medical records. So I didn't
understand it. You know, I've had lots of health issues,
and I don't think anybody's privileged to my medical records
except my doctors. So I was believing that that was
the right thing to support him on not showing medical records.
And then it got deeper and deeper and deeper. And
he then created a document from Hoag Hospital or City
(09:21):
of Hope, one of the two that he said he
was being treated at on their letterhead. So what he
did is he went to the internet, took a letterhead logo,
took a logo and created his own letterhead, then went
to Google and created the treatment plan he was getting
for non-Hodgkin's lymphoma.
S3 (09:34):
Wow.
S1 (09:35):
He put it in in that letter. So he shows
it to me. He shows it to the cast members,
and they took a snapshot of it and started googling
the letterhead, and it was nowhere near the position of
the logo and the protocol for the the cocktail of
what he was taking was exactly off the internet, word
for word.
S5 (09:54):
Oh my goodness.
S1 (09:55):
What is going on here? He's like, I don't know
what you guys are all you're all nuts. I have cancer.
This is what it is. And so Bravo started coming
in on me saying I was in on a cancer scam.
I said, I don't know what you're talking about. I
don't scam anybody. I think I'm being scammed, I do,
I really do. So the way that they edited it
made it look like I was covering for something he
(10:16):
was doing and I was covering because I didn't think
the girls were entitled to any of his medical records.
But I went down a rabbit hole and I couldn't
get out of it. So in the middle of the night,
he got up and left and left in his car
and blocked me on everything, and I never talked to
him since. So that was a tough recovery for me.
I was I felt like I was going to throw
up and die like my my father was deceased from
(10:37):
Alzheimer's and my family lives in Illinois, and I didn't
have any family out here, and I felt like the
girls were all ganging up on me. And it was
it was a dark space. So I thought, okay, I'm
going to get some therapy. I don't even remember the
therapist at the time. And they're like, you were in
a narcissistic relationship. I'm like, I don't even know what
that word is. I don't know what it is. All
(10:59):
I know is I love this man because I wanted
to be loved more than anything. And he loved me.
I thought.
S3 (11:03):
Is that how you figured it out? Vicki, is that you? Actually,
you sat with a therapist and they go, oh, by
the way, hey, you're a victim of narcissistic abuse.
S1 (11:13):
They're exactly the one that said you've been in a
narcissistic relationship. I said, I don't know what that word is,
but I loved him and I wanted to be in
his life forever and ever. So after those 4 or
5 months passed, I was starting to get stronger. Coming
back to work. I mean, I was calling in sick
at my own company. I'm like, I can't, I can't
see clients, I can't, I can't function. So I realized, like,
(11:35):
I got to pull myself up by my bootstraps and
get my ass back to work because that will be
my strength. And so I did. And I went back
to work and I was still damaged and hurt. But
I just really thought my world was calling me to
move back to to Chicago, where all my family and
friends are. And so, um, craziest thing I went to a,
(11:57):
I was part of the Boys and Girls Club and
I went to the Angel Stadium, and I was an
ambassador at the time. Five months later and I met
the table for auctions, and this fucking good looking man
shows up with a suit and tie, very stern back.
He's like, uh, have I met you before? I'm like,
don't think so. And I was so closed off from
meeting anybody else. And little by little he's like, well,
(12:20):
I'm a I'm part of the Anaheim City Council. I'm
a retired, uh, cop. I'm a detective, I'm been retired
26 years, blah, blah, blah. I'm like, I don't really care.
I have an insurance business. Like, goodbye. Um, he's like,
can I give you can I give you my card?
I'm like, for what? Like, I was so disconnected and
(12:41):
so disinterested in any man because I thought they were
going to lie to me. And, um, and it ended
up going to lunch with them a week later, ended
up dating him for four years. He was a narcissist.
S5 (12:53):
Oh my God.
S1 (12:54):
Steve Lodge. And he led me on a rabbit hole
so perfect. Like brought my grandson's police cars for their toys.
Gave my kids. I have two children, $5,000 each for Christmas. Um,
showered me with a Louis Vuitton suitcase. Um, for Christmas. Just.
We got engaged. Three years later, I bought the ring. Um,
(13:18):
and he's like, I can't afford what you want to wear,
so if you want to buy it, go for it.
But let's get engaged. I'm like, okay. And that was
two years before we broke up. Little did I know, um,
through all this, he was a narcissist. And my. I
bought a house in Puerto Vallarta during Covid, and he
was retired. So he would go down there and stay
(13:40):
at my house, and then I would go every other week,
like Thursday to Monday. And he was starting to go
more often and not come home very much. And when
he would go to my house, I had a ring
camera outside my my hallway door. So it was a condo,
two houses on each floor. Yeah. And he would put
his hand over it and then do the combination and
go in.
S6 (13:59):
I'm like, oh.
S1 (14:00):
So I would call him and go, why? Why do
you have your hand over the camera? He's like, Vicki,
I'm tired of you looking at me all the time.
I'm like.
S5 (14:07):
I.
S1 (14:07):
Don't look at you. But I got an alert that
there was something wrong with the camera on my phone.
Then he would come in and he would take a
red solo cup and put it over my nest camera inside.
And then he would throw a party, but he forgot
to remember. I can hear everything. So he was having
women up there. He was having the guy across the hall. Uh,
he started to say he lives in Puerto Vallarta, that
(14:28):
it was his house. It was 100% my house. Um,
and then he got mad at me that I didn't
put him on his owner at the gate for access.
I said, you're a guest in my home and you're not.
S5 (14:40):
Yes, until.
S1 (14:41):
You pay for half for it and all the dues
and everything. So, long story short, um, he was bringing
his bimbo girlfriend to my condo complex. He rented a
one bedroom in the next tower, literally right across from
my house. And I could sit on my balcony. I
could see them out there drinking wine and having their
hors d'oeuvres. Um, and I spiraled down. So I got
(15:04):
an attorney out in Mexico, and I was able to
get a restraining order and get him locked out of
it because I said, I'm fearing for my life. He's
a cop. I don't know if he's got guns. I
don't know what to do. I'm here by myself, watching
him and his bimbo. Um, and that was his. So
I was his fifth engaged. Sixth engagement. She is his
(15:24):
fourth wife. So they ended up meeting at a restaurant
here in Mission Viejo. She's 35. He's 66. And they
ended up getting married in Puerto Vallarta, right near my
condo at one of the restaurants my dad built. So, um,
spiral down again, you know? And, um, it's been tough, like.
S5 (15:42):
Yeah, I don't trust.
S1 (15:44):
And so, you know, when I think about, like, trust
is earned, you know, you always say trust is earned.
I never knew that he was a narcissist. And I thought,
how can I? I mean, I'm really close with his mom.
His four kids love me. He they haven't talked to
their dad in three years. So I think that he
is a really great family. And I held every holiday,
(16:06):
every 4th of July, every Memorial Day, Thanksgiving, Christmas, New Year's.
I mean, I held everything at my big house and
I just thought I hit the jackpot. This guy is
everything I wanted. My family is in Illinois. His is here. Um,
my kids loved him. And until that happened.
S5 (16:22):
Yeah.
S4 (16:23):
I just want to say, um. It sounds like you've
been through a lot. I follow a little bit of
your story. Um, obviously on the show, it sounds like
you've been through a lot, and I don't think that
this this seems like it's the first time that you're
able to tell your story, right, without any edits and
without anybody sort of, um, you know, making you look
(16:46):
like you're, you know, you were the one that, you know,
was backing this guy that was faking cancer. I mean,
that's such a huge thing.
S5 (16:56):
So I saw a.
S1 (16:57):
Long time with Bravo on it. And they choose what
they did. They actually flew Brooks out to New York,
and he did a one on one with Andy Cohen.
And Brooks was like, Vicki was not in on anything.
I have cancer, I'm not going to show my real records.
He was adamant that he still had cancer. He when
he left my home. Just so you know, both of
(17:17):
them are married quickly, like they got married quickly. And
I'm like, what woman would ever want to marry him?
Knowing what the story. I mean, it was a public
on the front page of every page six, every newspaper.
You know, Brooks, there is faked cancer. Um, but they
married him, and he probably had a story. Well, it
was for the show, and we created this reality. It was.
(17:38):
It was real. It was raw. It was. It was horrible.
S5 (17:41):
So, yeah, he.
S1 (17:42):
Can twist it however he wants, but that's how. That's
how it happened, you know?
S5 (17:46):
Yeah.
S3 (17:47):
You know, you're the first person I've, I've talked to
that has the same story. I actually had skin cancer
on my back. And I went home and and told
my ex. I said, by the way, I've got, you know,
I've got skin cancer. And she goes, oh, I had that.
No you didn't. You had a mole removed. And it
was not cancerous. At least that's what you told me.
She goes, oh no, no, I the doctor made a
(18:08):
mistake and I'm going to call him and tell him
that he made a mistake. And I really had cancer.
S5 (18:14):
Right.
S4 (18:14):
And I don't know, I mean, our listeners obviously know this,
but John was in a 28 year marriage.
S3 (18:21):
27. It only felt like 90 years.
S4 (18:24):
A 27 year marriage. It took him two years to
get out because he wanted his children to be grown
and go to college. So he. He understands narcissism and
now he coaches other men and actually women too. And
then for me, you know, I've been doing family law
for 22 years. I was in a narcissistic marriage for
seven of those years. So, Vicki, if you can imagine,
(18:46):
I was helping clients with their divorces and yet I
was stuck in a narcissistic. Actually, it was a malignant narcissist.
And people say, you know, you should have seen that coming. Like,
how could I have seen that coming? Right? It's like
they do the love bombing. They do everything in the beginning.
It's like your dream guy, like you're saying right about Brooks,
(19:07):
like your dream guy. And then all of a sudden
they flip the switch. And so now that's why I
care deeply for my clients. I represent the innocent spouses.
I like to say, and, you know, not every spouse
is innocent, but at least they don't know about the narcissism, right?
I feel like it takes two people in a marriage,
(19:28):
but in a narcissistic relationship, it only takes one to
really screw it up because they're mentally ill. So this
is why I'm so passionate about who I represent and
really represent the underdog.
S1 (19:41):
There's no sign on them saying I'm a narcissist. And oh,
by the way, I'm going to manipulate you and I'm
going to make you feel less than. And I'm going
to make you want me so bad that you'll never
leave me. Like, I really feel like I wanted both
of those men so bad that I would never leave them,
that I thought, okay, I got more money than them.
I got the strength and the power and why would
(20:02):
they ever leave me? Why would they ever hurt me?
So it was a strength that I felt that nobody's
going to hurt me, or they're not going to leave me,
because why would they? Where were they going to go?
S5 (20:10):
Right.
S6 (20:11):
Yeah.
S3 (20:11):
Was there a was there a time I know that
you've encountered two so far as you've done some of
your therapy and kind of worked on your, on yourself,
and I know you have. Um, was there a point
in time, have you, have you identified that there were
people in your family that kind of predispose you to
some of this, because I know, I know, for me,
I found kind of significant tendencies this way in my
own family. And it's not a rule. But sometimes it
(20:34):
happens as you, you do your, your self discovery.
S1 (20:37):
No, my family is pretty perfect. I mean, I have to.
S5 (20:39):
Say that we're.
S1 (20:40):
Incredible, and I just, um. I wanted that love, you know,
I wanted that love.
S5 (20:46):
And I would.
S1 (20:46):
Never I could just to get it. And I think
my daddy was an incredible role model, father. I taught
everything business wise from him. He died early, Alzheimer's onset
at 59, so I lost him early. But, um, I,
my parents were married, you know, 50, 60 years. And
I just wanted that love. I wanted my my family
(21:07):
is all still married. Nobody gets divorced and coming to California,
I'm like, shit, you know, I'm one of those statistics
out here. One out of every two are getting divorced
or more. Um, I think if I still lived in Chicago, I.
And I know this to be true, I'd still be
married to Don. Don was a great man. I. We
got distant. Marriage is due, and I met Brooks at
(21:30):
an insurance conference, and he was love bombing me. I mean, just.
S5 (21:33):
Yeah.
S1 (21:34):
An incredible, you know, chemistry I had with him. And
I didn't have it with Don anymore, so I fell
prey to that.
S5 (21:41):
Yeah.
S4 (21:42):
I often talk about, like, on my social media about
being in LA, being having been almost born in LA.
I came here when I was three from Iran. I
feel like having the spotlight on you is a blessing
and a curse. I know you had your company way
before Bravo came along, but it was actually a blessing
(22:05):
for you because you got more exposure that maybe you
wouldn't have had. But then it was also a curse
because didn't one of your interviews recently, you say, look,
if the if the Bravo cameras weren't on, I think
I'd still be married to Don.
S1 (22:18):
I know I would be.
S5 (22:20):
I know I would.
S1 (22:21):
And he was a good man. I lost a good
man searching for something that I could have probably gotten
with him. Um, but I just, you know, I was traveling,
and he would never call me where I was. We
were just growing apart. And then I fell into this.
Love bombing is exactly the right word. Narcissistic chaos. It
(22:41):
was chaos all the time. We would go out, I'd
be like, Brookshire, you're on drink number three. Drink number four.
You get to be an asshole. And he's like, I'm good.
I'm becoming an asshole because you're pressuring me not to drink.
I'm like, no opposite, you know? And then I would
start saying, well, maybe if I don't say anything, he
won't become an asshole. And then he would just get
drunk and become an asshole anyway. So it was like
(23:02):
I never knew what day it was going to be,
that he would over drink and then start yelling at
me about what I did wrong that day.
S5 (23:08):
Yeah, that's.
S1 (23:08):
A constant.
S3 (23:09):
That makes for a ridiculous, ridiculously chaotic home. Yeah. And
and and a war zone actually more often than a
place of peace than it should be.
S4 (23:20):
Do you feel like. Because I know I struggle with this. Um.
When you're successful, woman, as you are. I mean, anybody
can say that about you, right? Do you feel like
you were trying to help these men come up to
your level, as opposed to what we really should be
doing is what I have now, thankfully, with my husband,
(23:43):
is we're at the same level, or he's like a
little bit above in the sense that, like, I this
is what I hear lately is that like, don't don't
make a guy come to your level. Meet him where
he's at. You know what I'm saying? And so I
feel like, at least from hearing what you're saying with
Brooks and both Brooks and Steve, you were trying to
(24:06):
bring them up to your level. Although Steve had, you know,
obviously he was career minded and he had his own career,
but I know he ran for for office and like,
nobody knew him, right?
S5 (24:18):
Yeah.
S1 (24:19):
He wanted to be governor of California. I'm like, what
political experience do you have? Well, I was a cop.
I ran this and this and this. I'm like, all
this non-for-profit stuff. I go, you're kidding me. Goes. But
with your followers, I even if I could just 10%
of them. Vicki, I will win the governor of California.
So I was like, okay, I'm 100% behind it. I
was funding it and supporting him. And he was having
(24:41):
an affair with his 35 year old the whole time.
S4 (24:44):
You can't make this up. You really can't.
S5 (24:46):
Make this up. Yeah. You met her at a bar.
S1 (24:48):
She's a schoolteacher. And she sat there and said, oh,
you're famous. And, you know, he goes, well, Vicki and
I aren't together anymore. The bartender who became a friend
of mine, she's like, they met here. I'm like, who
met here? There's this little Italian place in Mission Viejo.
I'm like, what are you talking about, Tina? She's like, yeah,
they met here. And she was eyeing him for weeks
because Steve would always go there from 4:00 to 6:00
(25:08):
because he was bored and he would have his 2
or 3 glasses of wine call me and say what
time you leave in the office. I'm like, I don't know.
I should be home by six. 630. I'm making dinner tonight.
He's like, no, no, no, I'm going to pick it
up from this restaurant. I'm already here. I'm like, every
day you're there drinking like, that's that's so ugly. It's
so unattractive. Um, but he was bored and so he
didn't win the governor. And then she recognized him from
(25:30):
my TV show and felt like he was. He was
what she wanted. And so she lived in an apartment
right behind. And then he would pull up to my
$3 million house and have his, you know, beautiful life
with me, but screwing her in an apartment around the
corner in a parking lot. So, I don't know.
S5 (25:48):
It just.
S1 (25:49):
It was I have to say one more thing before I.
S5 (25:51):
Forget. Sure.
S1 (25:52):
What you what you said was exactly true. So let's
just say I'm here and Stephen Brooks were here, okay?
I felt because I was I never looked for money
because I could support myself. I never thought money was the.
But it is for men. It is their ego. It's
their strength. Right. So I but I can't control what
(26:13):
you make for a living. I'm just going to do
what I need to do to support myself and my
three houses and my kids and my grandkids. And I'm
going to do what I have to do. Whatever you
want to do, go do. But they both want to
cling on to me. And what can we do? Appearances together?
Can we do a talk show together? I'm like, what
are you talking about? You know this. This isn't about you.
(26:35):
You go find you and then I'm good with me.
So that's exactly true, that I felt they would never
leave me because where would they go? Right. So he
married somebody. I mean, he gets his $6,000 a month pension,
and she. She was a schoolteacher. But what the narcissists do,
I don't know if you know, but they they make
sure that your whole center of your universe has no friends,
(26:57):
no family, no anything. And they.
S6 (26:58):
Absolutely.
S1 (26:59):
They hang you. So she quit her job as a
school teacher in Mission Viejo, and they went in a
car ride for a year and ended up in, um,
the Ozarks or something. So it's it's she's now no
longer has her friends, doesn't have her family, doesn't have
her life. She was never married before. So. So now
she's got Steve. That's it.
S5 (27:19):
It's got Steve. Yeah.
S4 (27:20):
They isolate. They're very good at isolating. I remember with
my ex-husband, we lived. We lived in the Valley at
the time. And my father, who was much, much older,
and he passed away 13 years ago. But he was
I was like, I just want to go stop by
my father's house. Like, I just want to go see
my mom and dad. And, you know, being Persian, I
(27:40):
know you know, a bunch of Persians in Orange County, like,
we're so family orientated. And he was like, absolutely not.
And I was like, what do you mean? Like, it
didn't even make sense. It was like, I just want
to stop by for five minutes. And I'll never forget this. Vicki.
Like when my dad was eventually he was, you know,
in the hospital when he was on his deathbed. And
(28:01):
I remember just begging my ex-husband, like, I like, I
will give you a Rolex watch, like I will give you, like,
literally like a Ferrari. I will give you anything you want.
Just come and see my dad. And he did. And
he finally did. And. And then my dad actually, like,
asked him to pray for him. And I was like, dad,
(28:21):
you're like asking the devil to pray for you, but
go ahead. And so but that was the last time
that my dad passed away. And it's like, I'll never
I'll never forgive someone for that, right? Like, it's just
like it was such a traumatic thing.
S5 (28:35):
Yeah.
S4 (28:35):
And so we totally get it. We totally get what
you've been through. Um, thank you so much for just
coming on. I know you're super busy. Um, but thank
you so much. We. The reason why we started this
podcast was that we wanted to help the community understand
what narcissism is. Um, it's not just everybody says, like,
(28:56):
my ex is a narcissist. Like, no, this is a
mental condition, and you need to run away from these people. Like,
the first sign of somebody is using you for whatever.
For you. Like air time. Bravo. Your money, your houses.
You got to leave. Like this is a full stop.
Do not pass go. Do not collect $200.
S5 (29:17):
And I have a question.
S1 (29:19):
I have a question on that, because that makes sense.
But then I also say there's a lot of people
that I've met at my age group, I'm 62, that
have been married, have been divorced, have lost businesses, have gone,
struggled financially, and that's what justified me being with both
(29:39):
Brooks and Steve is because I didn't I didn't care
if they were Uber wealthy. I know a lot of
the women in Newport say I would never marry anybody
with less than worth less than $5 million net worth,
I don't care. I mean, I got my houses, I
got my life, I got my fancy car. But I
get mentally, why you don't want to go below you
because then you feel like you've got power over them.
(30:00):
I felt like I had power over them and they
would never leave me. Um, but I also don't want
to say okay what's your what's your net worth.
S5 (30:09):
Mhm.
S1 (30:09):
I don't know what the right thing to do is
anymore because people have financial struggles around here and they
live beyond their means and.
S5 (30:17):
Right.
S6 (30:17):
Well you know, there there there are people.
S3 (30:20):
I think I think, Vicki, that I know narcissists are,
are users, you know, first and foremost. And, and they
don't even understand love. So the, the hard part of
it being in the position you're in, like with, you know,
being a person of means like that is, you know,
it's it's easy for them to think, okay, well she'll
just take care of it. So so users are going
(30:42):
to be drawn to that, just like they're drawn to people,
you know, who are just very, very empathetic and who
put up with this stuff and are long suffering and, and,
and the saddest part of this is that, you know,
while they're using you and pretending up front is that
your love is real and, and and you wind up
on the other side of this just, just completely devastated,
(31:05):
you know? I know you had trouble working. I was
ready to put a gun to my head, and it's
it's it. It puts you in this horrible scenario, even,
where you have trouble working and focusing and those kinds
of things. And and I'm so glad you reached out
for help. Was there was there something that you can
think of like, is there a good piece of advice
that you got that kind of helped you through this
(31:27):
recovery process that you might share with us something that
you thought, man, this was this is powerful and me
getting through this.
S5 (31:35):
So I prayed a lot.
S1 (31:38):
Um, but.
S5 (31:39):
One.
S1 (31:39):
Of the biggest things that I was able to do
is journal. So I have a journal next to my bed,
and I journal. And when I look back on some
of those feelings and notes, and if I didn't have
my journal with me, I would go into my mobile
notes on my phone, and I would just talk into
it and say, this is how I'm feeling today. This
is why I'm feeling this way. And looking back on
(31:59):
some of that stuff, it was like, I'm surprised I
survived it because.
S5 (32:03):
I really.
S1 (32:03):
Didn't care about living anymore. I really didn't, and.
S5 (32:06):
I thought it.
S1 (32:07):
Happened to me twice. It's going to happen to me
again because I'm empathetic. I'm kind and loving and and giving.
And why would somebody hurt me? Well, two men that
I gave ten years of my life to hurt me deeply.
And so I thought, I can't get those ten years back.
I don't want to do another ten years, you know.
So it is it is a I'm dating somebody now
(32:29):
for three years. Really great guy. It's actually Olivia's father
that helped me get this all booked. Um, but I'm cautiously, um,
looking at everything. It's still three years, and I'm like.
S5 (32:40):
Um, I.
S1 (32:41):
How do I know that this is.
S5 (32:42):
Right?
S4 (32:43):
I would, I would say to Vicky, like, boundary work
is really important. Like just to put establish very healthy
boundaries for yourself. And, you know, obviously for our listeners, like, okay,
if a guy does or a girl does XYZ, that's it. Right?
Like if, if, if I have to help you. Of course.
We are called to be Helpmates, right? We know that biblically,
(33:06):
John and I are born again believers, so we're called
to be helpmates, but we're not called to do all
the work on our own, you know. And so as women,
we have to recognize that I'm here to be your helpmate.
I'm not here to do it all on your own.
And like you said, with Brooks, like I flew him
out here, I did this, I took him shopping, I
did all I mean, I.
S1 (33:26):
Know how hard.
S4 (33:27):
Yeah, I know how all those things cost. I remember
one time, like, he got new teeth or something on
the show, and everyone was like.
S1 (33:33):
I'm like, you got shitty teeth, got new teeth, got
him a new car. He's got to fit into Orange County. Yeah.
And you know, I didn't want to move to Mississippi.
So I'm like this, this is a big deal. Like,
you got to fit in if you want to be
with me. Yes.
S6 (33:45):
So, you know, one of.
S3 (33:46):
The things, one of the things I love about what
you're doing right now and I think is, is nothing
but positive for yourself is you're taking time. Um, as
I look back on my own journey with with my
ex and, you know, 27 years, like I said, I
felt no, no longer than 90. Um, one of one
of the things I surfaced in myself was I didn't
take the kind of time I need. I needed to
(34:08):
really know the I didn't take the time. I needed
to really know her. And I think you need to
see somebody in good times. You need to see somebody
in bad times. You need to see them under stress.
You need to see them. When things are wonderful, you
need to see them through, you know, to see how
they respond. And are they are they drawing close to
you or are they pushing away? Are they are they
using you or are they loving you? And these these
(34:29):
things are real qualitative differences that I think over time
you really discover. And that's, you know, three years is
a long time. And I still understand your hesitance. I
haven't dated yet really. And and I don't know if
I will. It's just it's hard to go put yourself
in that position again because you've opened yourself up and
(34:49):
your love is genuine. And to go through that again
is just excruciating.
S4 (34:53):
Right. And then also she has she has children too.
I know they're adults, but to bring your to bring
them back into your children's. Like you said, one of
your one of your exes, Steve, was like buying them
things and giving them money. And you know, these are
like stepchildren, right? I know you didn't marry him, thank God, but, um,
so I'm sure you're very cautious, but it sounds like
(35:15):
you're on the path of recovery. And that's why we
call it narcissistic abuse recovery channel, because I've been, you know,
I'm married now. Three years. It took me eight years, Vicki.
So I was married for seven. Took me eight years
to be single. And listen, that wasn't easy because I
like to be married. And I know you've said that before. Like,
(35:35):
you're like, I'm a marriage material person, you know? And
I don't.
S1 (35:39):
Date, and I date to me, that's it.
S4 (35:41):
Date to me, that's like, hey, listen, if you get
nothing else from this podcast today, date to mate is
is the word from the Lord. Okay. Um, and so
now I'm married, you know, three years. But it doesn't
mean that I'm still not triggered. right? So I get
triggered sometimes and I'm like, okay, I need to take
a deep breath. This is from my past. So, you know,
(36:02):
just constantly going to counseling. You said journaling. I think
that's wisdom.
S6 (36:08):
I was really.
S3 (36:08):
Helpful for me as well. I took to journaling and.
S1 (36:11):
Our emotions change day by day. There's some days I
feel super strong, like I got this. And then there's
other times where I get a red flag and I go, shit,
am I falling back into this acceptance? Because there's some
things I will not accept. I will not accept overdrinking
I hate drinking, I hate drunks, I can't do it.
I don't want to be around it. And when I
(36:32):
see that happening, it was with Brooks, it was with Steve. And,
you know, my relationship, not so much. But if I
see an over drinker, that's a trigger for me going,
you aren't in control. That's a loser. Like, I get
all these things go into my brain and. Yeah, um.
S4 (36:48):
It's a big red flag and that's a boundary, you know,
that's like, this is my healthy boundary. You know, I
don't have 100, but I have like five deal breakers.
And and so I agree with you. I think drinking
brings out the worst. It makes people cheat. Sometimes they
don't even want to cheat. Like. And we know like
you're in Newport, right? I'm in Newport. It's like, that's
(37:09):
just the way of life. By the way, John, I
know John's in Atlanta, so that's just a way of life.
S3 (37:14):
Oh, they drink here too.
S1 (37:15):
I don't put myself in that situation. I don't go
out to the Javier's into the. I don't go out
unless it's with Michael or, you know, 2 or 4 girlfriends,
and we. I don't accept drinks from other men. Oh,
aren't you on the housewives of Orange County like I
used to be? Next. Like I don't open that door.
That door is always closed with a padlock on it.
And I think been out with a lot of married women,
(37:37):
single women. That door is always open. Like, oh, he
looks like he might have money. Look at his shoes.
Look at his belt. Like, who cares about the money?
What does he like as a person? So because they
don't have a career, they don't have the strength to
support themselves, many of them that they're looking for the next.
S4 (37:54):
Oh yeah, they're always looking for the next come up. And,
you know, unfortunately I represent some people like that in
Orange County, but they're always looking for the next come up.
And you know, they're like, you can see them, right, Vicky?
They're like sitting at dinner with their significant other or spouse,
and they're looking around like, when I'm at a place
with my husband, I'm not looking around. I have the prize.
(38:17):
I'm with the actual prize. And so I think you've
done a lot of great work. Thank you so much
for being here. Um, it's.
S3 (38:25):
So good to meet you.
S4 (38:26):
Is there anything else that you want, like your parting
bits of knowledge that you want people to know before,
before we end today.
S1 (38:34):
Go slow. I think that's the biggest thing. And when
you see the red flags get therapy, is it a
red flag or is it an orange flag or a
yellow flag? Like not everything has to be a red flag.
So some things we have to show grace and say, okay,
you're you're doing this and you're not understanding that it's
not acceptable to me. And if there's no change, then
(38:55):
get out. I mean, there's there's other opportunities out there.
I'm not. I don't enjoy being alone. I've always, you know,
had a relationship. So, um, if this relationship doesn't work,
for whatever horrible reason, um, I would go back to Illinois.
Nobody's divorced in Illinois. They're all super happy that it's.
(39:15):
The culture here is very dysfunctional, I think, for. That's
why my daughter moved. She said, you know, mom, if
I stay in California, I'm going to be one of
the the victims of my husband going out or lying
or whatever, whatever. It's not all true. But there is
a pattern here that I don't want to get sucked into.
So everybody is prettier than the next. Literally. I mean,
(39:37):
everybody is prettier than the next. And you feel a
ton of competition and, you know, it's just.
S4 (39:44):
You know, it's hard. Uh, actually, John might not know this.
The divorce rate in LA is 62%. The divorce rate
in Newport Beach is 72% for your first marriage. So.
And then it goes up your second marriage. And then
your third marriage is like. Like you will be divorced.
So it's it's like, no.
S7 (40:04):
That's me. I'm in.
S3 (40:06):
Illinois. Here I come, like 85%.
S4 (40:09):
I'm telling you this as a divorce attorney. So it's
it's it's just bad. She's absolutely right. And my husband's
actually from his parents are from Chicago. And then they
migrated to, um, to Michigan. So he's got very good,
you know, old school values. And, you know, it sounds
like the person you're with now is the same and
is not looking for anything, just wants to partner with
(40:31):
what you're doing.
S1 (40:32):
So I did a list. So those of you who
listeners I did a list of what I will not
compromise on.
S3 (40:39):
And awesome.
S1 (40:40):
It was 18 things in my mobile notes. So my
friend Kelly Dodd set us up and we went to
dinner and I said, oh, by the way, he's like,
can I have your number? I said, here's 18 things
that I will not compromise on. And he's like, we
just met. I go, I don't care. You're not getting
my number. Non-smoker non no drugs. Got to be an entrepreneur.
Got to not be from California. And I know for
(41:02):
me it was my faith. You got to be a
believer in Jesus Christ. I went through every even political
I went through everything. Got to be six feet or taller,
got to wear cowboy boots at times. I love a
country guy. And I looked out and he was wearing
cowboy boots. I'm like, oh, Jesus.
S7 (41:15):
Um, so it.
S1 (41:17):
Was a cycle of things I will not compromise on.
And you got your money, I got mine. We're never
going to cross it over. Um, so I did it.
It was nice because I just laid it out. I didn't.
S7 (41:28):
Have.
S1 (41:29):
To. Yeah, I didn't have to wait five months and say, oh,
by the way, these are my 18 things. So those
listeners that are listening set your rules for yourself. And
I think that's what really helped me, um, is to
just say this is non-negotiable for me. You got to,
you know, you got to have your own money. Got to.
I don't care what it is. I don't care if
it's 500,000 or 1 million or 10 million, I don't care.
(41:50):
You got to have your money. You got to be
an entrepreneur. You can't be an eight to fiver because I'm.
I'm out on the road a lot. I'm traveling. I
can't have somebody say, oh, I can't. I can't go
on that trip with you because I only got two
weeks vacation pay. Screw that. You know. Yeah.
S7 (42:03):
No.
S4 (42:03):
And again, that's your boundary. And I love that idea
of a list. I actually had a list, too. And
when I showed my mom the list, this is before
I was married, obviously, she was like, how are you
going to find this person? She's like, there's no. I said, mom,
I'm not compromising. Do you understand? And she literally was like,
there is no way. If you ask my mom, my
(42:23):
mom is in her 90s. I can't give her real
age because she'll kill me. She literally goes, your husband, John,
is every single one of these things. Like literally every
single thing. So I think that that's a great suggestion.
S1 (42:37):
You pray for it. You, you you feel entitled to this.
This is your this can be your future and you
own it. I'm owning it. This is what I. This
is what I want now. I'll stay.
S3 (42:48):
And you don't settle for less.
S7 (42:50):
Mhm.
S3 (42:51):
Yep. Vicki, we're all entrepreneurs here too. And you're an
entrepreneur and you do insurance. And there are people who
are local who are going to who are looking for some.
How can they find you, give you a little plug.
S1 (43:03):
Your license in every state. So.
S7 (43:05):
Okay.
S1 (43:05):
Yeah. We just go to Coto Insurance.com Coto and put
in your information and we'll get back to you.
S3 (43:11):
Fantastic.
S7 (43:11):
And then you also.
S4 (43:12):
Have a podcast. So tell us a little bit about
your podcast.
S7 (43:15):
Yeah.
S1 (43:15):
So we're about six seven months in now. It's called
My friend My soulmate, my podcast. So there was an
episode where I was yelling at Tamara. I said, you're
supposed to be my friend. It was about Brooke's my soulmate,
my sister, and we named the podcast after me, yelling
at her. And it's my friend, my soulmate, my podcast.
S3 (43:33):
That's awesome.
S1 (43:33):
No. And it's it's fun. I just taped an episode
a couple days ago in Puerto Vallarta with my brother.
It's just, you know, for me, it's about showing my
viewers and my fans my life now off the show. And, um,
it hurts sometimes to know that Bravo has taken another
route and not included me. But I know that it's
(43:54):
the right thing for me. I know God invented, intervened, and,
you know, basically said, if you want this relationship to flourish,
if you want the relationship with your kids and your business,
you can't be on a reality TV show expecting it
to turn out good because they just want the drama
and the bullshit.
S7 (44:11):
So yeah.
S1 (44:12):
Um, even though it hurts and I lost a big paycheck,
I just look at it's just money. I always can
make more money, but I I've been a very good
steward of money. So those of you that are listeners
just save more than you ever think you're gonna ever need,
because you never know when you're going to need it. So, um, I, um,
you know, I just lived by that rule, and I've
(44:35):
been able to take care of myself.
S3 (44:38):
Awesome. Vicki Gunvalson here on the Narcissistic Abuse Recovery Channel.
Thank you so much for being.
S7 (44:44):
Here.
S3 (44:44):
With us today. So good to connect. Yeah we will
we will. Perdita. So good to see you as well. And, uh,
and we're out. Thank you so much for listening today.
S8 (44:56):
Thank you for listening to the Narcissist Abuse Recovery Channel.
Be sure to follow and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts,
and be sure to follow us on Instagram with the
handle narc Dot podcast. The guest views, thoughts and opinions
expressed are their own. The information presented is for general
information purposes only and is not intended to be legal advice.
(45:18):
The co-hosts are not licensed therapists. Seek professional help as
information is often state specific.
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