August 5, 2025 • 44 mins
Summary
In this conversation, Jon McKenney and Padideh Jafari along with their special guest Scott Silverman, discuss the complex relationship between trauma bonding and addiction, exploring how these issues manifest in families and relationships, and give some strategies to recover from it's grip. They delve into the signs of trauma bonding, the impact of untreated trauma, and the importance of establishing healthy boundaries. The discussion also highlights the healing process, the role of therapy, and practical tools for recovery, emphasizing the need for education and self-reflection in overcoming these challenges.
Takeaways
- Trauma bonding often occurs in relationships with narcissists.
- Untreated trauma can amplify issues within families.
- Addiction is a family disease that affects everyone involved.
- Recognizing signs of trauma bonding is crucial for recovery.
- Establishing healthy boundaries is essential for healing.
- The healing process can take time and requires support.
- Education is key to understanding trauma and addiction.
- Self-reflection tools like journaling can aid recovery.
- Victims often feel guilt and responsibility for the abuser's actions.
- Seeking professional help is important for overcoming trauma.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Padideh Jafari (00:07):
It's bad and I see it with my clients when they
come in they're like I justcan't leave.
Voiceover (00:13):
Welcome to the narcissist abuse recovery
channel with John McKenney andPadida Jafari.
Jon McKenney (00:18):
Padidah it's good to see you.
Padideh Jafari (00:20):
Hi John, how are you?
Jon McKenney (00:22):
Very good. It's just not the same being together
again like it was before. I soenjoyed being out there in LA
with you, actually in San Diegoand doing the recording. This is
our first time recording againin a couple of weeks, and, it's
good to catch up with you again.
Padideh Jafari (00:36):
Yeah. Nice to see you. How's everything in
Atlanta?
Jon McKenney (00:41):
Hot. It's been about a 100 degrees every day
for the last, week and a half ortwo weeks. So, my car is baking,
and if you go outside, it issweltering. Mhmm.
Padideh Jafari (00:53):
I don't like the sound of that.
Jon McKenney (00:55):
No. It's it's a it's a far cry from LA. So where
where the temperature is justalways nice and moderate, and
and you enjoy a really, reallytemperate weather out there. So
it's, but it's good. And youknow what?
I saw today, the new naked gunmovie is coming out. So I am
really excited about that, Igotta tell you.
Padideh Jafari (01:15):
You and my husband, he's excited about
that.
Jon McKenney (01:18):
Oh, send him over. We'll go see it. I've I've
actually got tickets fortonight, and it did really well
on Rotten Tomatoes. It almostgot a perfect score. So, and
anything with Pamela Anderson,you know, it can't be bad.
Padideh Jafari (01:30):
Agree. Agree. And I'm so happy she's, dating
again. She's dating a Liam
Jon McKenney (01:35):
Oh, is she?
Padideh Jafari (01:36):
Yeah Liam Neeson who you know lost his wife on a
ski accident and she was afamous actress as well and he
said he would never getremarried and that that was the
love of his life. And here he islike, you know, years later with
Pamela Anderson. They they saythat they're dating.
Jon McKenney (01:56):
Now did you know that Liam Neeson is the star of
the naked gun? So maybe they meton set.
Padideh Jafari (02:02):
Correct. Yes. I believe that's the case. So
Jon McKenney (02:05):
Well, we wish them well.
Padideh Jafari (02:06):
Yes. So I have exciting news because I have my
friend here in studio with me,Scott Silverman. Say hello.
Scott Silverman (02:16):
Hello. I could do that.
Padideh Jafari (02:19):
Yes. So let me tell you a little bit about
Scott. He's a renowned crisiscoach, family negotiator. He is
he has won the CNN CNN Hero ofthe Week renowned recipient. I
had never heard that.
Jon McKenney (02:37):
Wow, no, didn't know that was an award. That's
amazing. Yes. It sounds amazing.
Padideh Jafari (02:42):
So he delivers insights for over forty years of
working with individuals acrossall socioeconomic spectrums. And
he has just written andpublished a book called, wait
for the title, You're Not God.That Job is Taken.
Jon McKenney (03:03):
I like that.
Padideh Jafari (03:04):
That's such a great title. Right?
Jon McKenney (03:06):
I know some people I can give that book to already.
Padideh Jafari (03:10):
So we wanna welcome you to the studio,
Scott. And this is a great honorto have you.
Scott Silverman (03:16):
Thank you so much. Really great to be here.
Padideh Jafari (03:18):
So today we're going to talk about, John, you
want to tell us what we're goingtalk about today?
Jon McKenney (03:23):
Trauma bonding.
Padideh Jafari (03:24):
Yes. Trauma bonding and addiction, actually,
is of Scott's specialtiesbecause he talks about addiction
a lot. So what do you thinkabout that title? Trauma bond
and addiction.
Scott Silverman (03:38):
Well, it can't get any more fun than that. I
think they're they'reinterwoven. You know, we were
just kind of looking at a a aupdated definition of trauma
bond, which kinda reminds me,you know, of the Stockholm
syndrome where there is somebodysomebody who's actually the term
I like or prefer is holdingsomeone hostage, and it's
(03:59):
usually the victim, if you will,and domestic violence is a huge
problem. And it's part of thatstigma just like addiction.
People don't talk about it, andit goes on a lot.
And it it's interesting. Youknow? I'm I'm in the Jewish
faith, and we have a lot of it.We've had actually a lot of
growth over the last twentyyears with that going on. And
(04:20):
because there's different sectsof our our faith and different
levels of commitment, and a lotof it's dictated by the man, if
you will, in many cases.
And it's something that istreatable, but until it gets
discovered, there's usuallysomeone who's in harm's way for
quite some time. And theaddiction side of it is
someone's generally mood moodaltering, you know, and self
(04:43):
medicating, to try to deal withit one way or another.
Jon McKenney (04:45):
Yeah. Now, Scott, let let's go back to the origins
of this. You talked aboutStockholm syndrome a little bit.
That that actually goes back towar and captivity, does it not?
Scott Silverman (04:55):
Correct. But where the individual who is, you
know, dealing with the victim,that victim falls in love or
gets connected to the batterer,if you will, and they they
believe that it's their job todo whatever needs to be done to
console, confirm, or comply withthat individual. That's why I I
see the similarity with the, youknow, the trauma bond.
Jon McKenney (05:19):
Mhmm. And how does somebody how how does somebody
find their way to trauma bond? Iyou know, that they they just
get involved with a narcissistand it happens? It happened in
all cases or most? Or talk talkto us a little bit about that.
Scott Silverman (05:33):
I I think my my experience with, you know,
dealing with families is it it'skinda the way you ask that
quite. Then no one reallytravels down the road to, hey,
honey. Let's go to trauma bondland. It it's just it's a it's a
happenstance of what happenswhen when there's somebody who
is, in many cases, a narcissistor suffers from a god complex
(05:54):
and believes that their way isthe only way and everyone in the
family will do exactly what theysay or there's gonna be a
consequence. And thatconsequence, is is creating the
trauma, and trauma untreatedonly gets amplified.
Yes. Trauma untreated only, youknow, infects the entire family.
I mean, one of the things that,you we work with veterans here a
(06:16):
lot in San Diego at ConfidentialRecovery in our Veterans
Navigation Center. And whatwe've learned about PTS, and the
studies show that if somebodycomes back from, you know,
events with the, you know,military and their PTS goes
untreated, it's like the flu, ifyou will. The rest of the family
gets PTS.
Padideh Jafari (06:36):
So
Scott Silverman (06:37):
with untreated trauma, what happens is everyone
can be impacted by it.
Jon McKenney (06:43):
Interesting. Interesting. So so as you know,
our audience is a group ofpeople primarily who who are
interested in narcissism, notbecause they are them, because
the hit narcissists wouldn'twouldn't spend the time on a a
podcast like ours, but, becausepeople think they're victims of
narcissistic abuse. What whatare some of the key signs, you
(07:06):
know, that that we can talkabout here today that would help
somebody know if they're in, inin trauma bond or not? I know I
I I think in my own relationshipand I I was married to a covert
narcissist for twenty sevenyears Or like I tell people when
they ask, how long were youmarried?
About ninety years. It felt likethat at least.
Padideh Jafari (07:24):
I
Jon McKenney (07:28):
was in a position where I felt like I was so
emotionally connected and andmet with a therapist who's like,
why are you why are you doingthis? And it was very hard to
kinda get away from thatemotional connection. Is that
that kinda what it is, or whatare some of the what are some of
the signs of this?
Scott Silverman (07:46):
Well, it's I think it's very similar when you
when you speak of it that way,and you mentioned covert, you
know, and it probably in someways might have been overt as
well. The, addiction in afamily, you know, it's fifteen
percent of our populationsuffers in some form of
addiction, untreated addiction,and the balance of the people
around them, because it's afamily disease, also suffer Yes.
(08:10):
From the consequences of thataddiction. And when you think
about the person who's got theproblem in in the addiction
field, if you will, fifteenpercent suffer from addiction,
but eight people are impactednegatively by that person who
has the addiction. So you thinkabout that.
That's eighty five percent plusof our country right now that
(08:32):
are being impacted by it. Sowhen you factor in the trauma
piece and and a lot of what youknow, trauma, in my opinion, be
and I'm not a clinician or adoctor, but my experience is
it's it's kind of like if youhave an illness and it goes
untreated, it gets worse becauseit doesn't start as trauma.
Mhmm. You know? Like but itbuilds, and then trauma on top
(08:53):
of trauma untreated creates allkinds of underlying issues.
And most people who don'tprocess it are gonna either
implode or explode. And,unfortunately, it's gotta be
treated just like when peoplesay, well, gee, I, you know, I
do interventions. And they say,can you come get my son and just
take him somewhere? You know?And try please don't bring him
back.
(09:14):
We'll pay you. I said, no. No.That's not how it works. And,
you know, in families, it's it'skept very secret.
You know? It is a stigma. It'snot something soccer moms talk
about. It's it's not something,you know, it it that goes on
when people meet, you know, atpickleball and go, yeah. I'm
living with an abusivesignificant other, and I don't
(09:35):
know what to do with them.
They don't say that out loudbecause then it looks like
they're vulnerable, they'reweak, and then they're also
sitting in an abusiverelationship. And so it's really
hard to talk about.
Padideh Jafari (09:46):
Yeah, I mean I can tell you that in my
marriage, my past marriage,that's exactly what it was. I
mean I was a divorce attorneybeing abused by a malignant
narcissist and I couldn't tellanyone. Part of it because I was
trying to protect his image Andthe other part of it was, okay,
(10:07):
fine, you go and tell someone.Now there's repercussions to
that and they're gonna tell youto leave the person. And I knew
that sort of in the back of mymind and I wasn't ready.
And so it took seven years. Soto your point it's like
addiction, like families andwe've had addiction in our
families so I can also speak tothat. You put your head in the
(10:29):
sand and you just think theperson's gonna get better but
the more you do that the worsethe person gets. And so it's not
until you establish healthyboundaries and say no I'm not
going to be manipulated by theaddict anymore that they sort of
will hit rock bottom, right?Because once you close the door
to them that's when they'llrealize, oh my gosh.
(10:52):
I'm alone in this. Is that isthat true?
Scott Silverman (10:55):
I I think it's a common outcome, you know, when
you're the victim, if you will,or the recipient of the abuse,
you know, because it's reallyhard to tell somebody, you you
know, you know, you're abusingme. You just you don't have that
because it builds over time, andthey chip away at it. And it's
not really a conscious effort.It's more of a subconscious
behavior where they will grow onit. And if they've got a
(11:18):
substance abuse issue, it getsamplified.
So it isn't just, you know, Idon't like you or you're not
doing things I want you to do oryou don't like me. It just
builds over time, and there'soutside influences. And we've
seen with with COVID, we've seenthings amplified like we I've
never seen anything like thisbefore. There's a level of
(11:39):
inability to process feelingsnow that we've never seen
before. Just be and and there'sno studies around it because we
never had that kind ofexperience.
There's a younger generationcoming up now, you you young
people, where, you know, kidswere at home with COVID, and
they spent so much time on theInternet, and they weren't
(11:59):
having that social interactionwith others. And, you know,
parents were frustrated becausethey weren't at school.
Relationships got strainedbecause of what was going on
with the economy, loss of jobs,all the all the trauma around
that event. And there's nostudies yet, and and we're gonna
know in probably about, well,it's five to eight years when
studies start getting donebecause we're seeing this, you
(12:21):
know, issue going on with someof the catastrophic events that
people are doing when they'reacting out. I mean, look at that
current shooter in in in in NewYork.
You know? That that just it'sinsane. You know? When I was
growing up, we'd take a bag ofdog poop and put lighter fluid
on it and ring the doorbell, youknow, and and people come out
Right.
Padideh Jafari (12:38):
I remember the you know, I just wanted to take
a moment here to say that Scottsaid that I was a younger
generation for all thoselistening because that is not
the case, Scott. I am I am mucholder than I look, but I just
wanted to take that moment to
Scott Silverman (12:54):
say that. To be honest, I'm not I'm not
gaslining you. I'm justfabricating the truth my own
comfortable way.
Padideh Jafari (13:00):
Okay. That sounds good. That's hilarious.
Scott Silverman (13:02):
So but I think it comes back to the stigma. You
know, we don't the fact thatwe're talking about this today,
think about it. How I I I don'tdo that very often. You know?
And I I have a podcast that wetalk about these kind of things
all the time because we can.
We don't have any limitations toit, we think it's important, and
we bring people in who've haddifferent experiences. You know?
But I was just thinking about,you know, this topic today, and
(13:23):
there was this couple I wasworking with a couple years ago.
He was a lawyer, and she was adoctor. And he wanted me to fix
her, So and he and he was aboutto turn her into the AMA, which
was pretty bold.
Wow. And he was threatening herwith that. So she was actually a
victim, if you will, of hisabuse, and she because her ego
(13:47):
she was the doctor, and she hada major drinking problem. And he
says, what should I do? And Isaid, well, let me talk with
her.
And, you know, most doctors inin this I think she was just
finishing her residency, wasworking eighteen hours a day.
Wow. And when we spoke, shesaid, you know, I I only drink
when I drive home. And I said,I'm sorry. What?
(14:08):
I only drink, you know, in thein the in the car, so I'm by
myself. I said, but you're inthe car at a freeway. And I you
know, but she said that's theonly time I drink. I said, okay.
So, you know, I I I tried to geta three way conversation, but
neither one of them wanted to tohave that conversation together
because they didn't want theirdirty laundry to be exposed to a
(14:29):
third party, although each oneof them was telling me about it.
Padideh Jafari (14:31):
Yes.
Scott Silverman (14:32):
So, you know, I tried to do an intervention with
him because in many ways, theywere they were forcing each
other. They were amplifying eachother's behavior. They were both
gaslighting each other. It was avery it's duality of domestic
violence from both of them ateach other be because of the
narcissism.
Padideh Jafari (14:48):
Yes.
Scott Silverman (14:49):
And neither one of them took responsibility for
their own behavior, and each oneof them blamed the other for
what was going on. So, you know,those are the kind of things
that one day just explodes, youknow, or or somebody gets up and
leaves because they can't takeit anymore. But in many cases,
they're pointing the finger atsomebody else. And that's part
of that denial.
Jon McKenney (15:10):
Do you think most people have any clue that
they're they're trauma bondedwhen they're in a situation like
that?
Scott Silverman (15:15):
I don't think so, and I think that's what
trauma means with bonding. Imean, you're you're if you're if
you've gotten to the point whereyou're bonded, it's kinda like,
you know, plastic getting toohot and sticking together.
You're just you know, you can'tseparate from it, so you're both
kind of on that, you know,vortex of pain.
Padideh Jafari (15:32):
I can tell you that with my situation, it felt
like he was my drug dealer. Evenwhen we separated, it was so
difficult, Scott. Like, I had tomove and everybody knows my
story that's, you know, been a afollower of ours. I had to move
to New York. I literally had to
Scott Silverman (15:52):
Full geographic.
Padideh Jafari (15:53):
Yes, physically moved for, I lived there
actually thirteen years I was bicoastal but for two years he
didn't even know where I hadgone because I had to get away
from him because there was thattrauma bond. Was like you know
and once, I didn't know the wordfor it obviously but now I do
and it's bad and I see it withmy clients when they come in
(16:17):
they're like I just can't leave,I can't leave. And I'm like well
let's go through the scenariosand I walk through them with
them and then I always recommenda psychotherapist because I
can't do that emotional side ofit for them. But it's really
bad. I mean it's reallydevastating.
Scott Silverman (16:37):
And when they're on fire it's hard to
have a conversation withsomebody. You know when they're
just dancing around on fire. Youknow it's interesting when you
describe that. Used to have anMFT, marriage family therapist,
on our on our team, and I usedto share about how when I ran
the nonprofit, you know, we're afamily business. And he says,
you know what?
We're really not because you'retechnically the father. You're
(16:59):
You the dad. And when youdescribe what he was doing, it's
almost like when your dad sayssomething or your mom says
something, it's law. You justfollow it. When we get into
those because it's the persontheoretically who you wedded
because of strong feelings and aconnection.
So there's that special partthat you you wanna give them
(17:19):
every benefit of the doubt. Youwanna give them as much time as
possible. You wanna make everyexcuse in the book that you can.
And part of that pushing awaybut pulling back is is the bond.
And the trauma is the behaviorthat you're receiving, and
you're not processing it becauseyou really don't believe it's
happening.
And when you tell others, thefirst thing they say is, Why
(17:41):
don't you get out of there? Or,You're breaking it up. Or,
You're too sensitive. Or, Thatcan't be true. Because if it
was, why would you stay there?
Padideh Jafari (17:48):
Correct. 100%. So they're gaslighting you
without even knowing thatthey're gaslighting you. And so
that becomes another trauma ontop of the trauma.
Scott Silverman (17:58):
The victim in many cases is gaslighting
themselves.
Padideh Jafari (18:03):
Correct.
Scott Silverman (18:04):
There you know you were saying I can deal with
this. I'm a mature person. Ichose this person. We chose each
other. We can get past this.
The problem is if there's anillness or there's a behavior or
there's a twist in the brain orthey have untreated trauma. And
you know, it's interesting. Mostcases of untreated trauma go
(18:25):
back to most people's childhood.
Padideh Jafari (18:27):
Correct.
Scott Silverman (18:28):
And it happens at a young age, and it never
gets treated over time. And whathappens is it becomes like this
cancer that, you know, like theintegrator of the brain,
everything goes through that. Sowhen it hits you, it's a 100
times worse than it would benormally because it's already
amplified inside your body,mind, and soul. Those aren't
(18:51):
necessarily the therapeuticterms, but I think they're
easier for people to understandbecause it's like, know, when
people call me and say, well,how do I well, you don't go on
YouTube. Someone's got a mentalhealth issue.
It's too opaque. You go see aspecialist. And when people
families tell me we're we'regonna love we're gonna love
them, but you're you're lovingthem to death and and you and
(19:15):
you become a victim as well.
Jon McKenney (19:16):
You know, I mean, that's the interesting thing.
You know? Stockholm syndrome isis somebody who's trauma bonded
perhaps to a captor, but butwhen you're trauma bonded
perhaps to a spouse or to aparent, love muddies the water,
trying to figure out ordistinguish between genuine love
(19:39):
for somebody, and I'm not gonnagive up on them, and marital
commitments, and all of thatversus, okay, I'm being abused
for somebody, which particularlyfor for men, and I'm I'm work
primarily with men, is a a toughadmission anyways, even to
oneself. And then to acknowledgethe the trauma bond and to to
sift through that versus genuinefeelings of love for somebody is
(20:02):
a difficult process at best.
Scott Silverman (20:05):
Oh, and, well, with men, it's even worse
because between the ego and theself pride and, you know, the
you're in charge and you'resupposed to be responsible and,
you know, you're you're theprovider and, you know, you're
supposed to look good and be hipslick and cool all the time.
It's it's even tougher. Andthat's part of the denial part
of it. You know? I think it justcompounds the problem.
And, you know, when you thinkabout trauma, it's it's
(20:27):
something that we talk a lotabout. And and the way I've, you
know, understood, you know, likeEMDR, which is one of the
techniques to deal with trauma,is trauma gets stuck in this,
you know, little box in yourbrain, and you need techniques
to open that box and take thatstuff out. It won't work. You
can't organically wish it awayor will it away. And you can
only meditate to a certainpoint.
(20:48):
It's going to take therapeuticsupport, maybe working with
different groups and otherindividuals, like minded
individuals who have sufferedfrom it, and accepting the fact
that, you know, it's not yourfault.
Padideh Jafari (20:59):
Right.
Scott Silverman (21:00):
It's not your fault when you're the victim.
And people when they're victimsthey think that there must be
something I'm not doing right.
Padideh Jafari (21:07):
Right. Well the guilt is really strong too right
because you're detaching fromthe person who has been your
supplier for so many years andso there's a lot of guilt there.
We talk about that in one of ourepisodes that I had two years
worth of guilt. I felt like, ohmy gosh, I've left this person.
(21:28):
Is it my fault?
Could I have done thingsdifferently? And only the empath
really does that, right? Thenarcissist doesn't do that
because they've already moved onto the next relationship and so
it was very difficult. Andprocess of healing for me, took,
so I was married for, I was withhim for seven years and it took
(21:49):
exactly double the time. So ittook fourteen years.
And I would say that I still gettriggered sometimes. And I have
a wonderful husband now thatknows when I get triggered and
I'll say that's kind oftriggering and so he knows where
that comes from. And so mine wasa lot of sexual abuse as well
(22:10):
with him and so it's exactlyright. I couldn't do it by
myself. I needed to go totherapy, I worked out, I was
very always at the gym doing alot of meditation, I was close
to my family at the time andthen also working out was very
important in my life.
Scott Silverman (22:31):
And it's punitive for you to have to go
through all of that when intheory, not theory, in fact, you
were the victim.
Padideh Jafari (22:41):
Correct.
Scott Silverman (22:41):
And but if you don't if you didn't do that, you
know, how do we you know, how doyou know how things might have
ended up if you didn't work onyourself? And and and it takes
what it takes, you know, likethat saying, it takes what it
takes. But for so many people,they don't. They don't, you
know, they don't have the innerstrength. They don't have other
family members they can rely on,and they get stuck.
(23:03):
And there's nothing they can dobecause they're too afraid to
leave, meaning the alternativethey feel would be worse than
what they've got there going on.And the narcissist doesn't even
the it's narcissist blameseverybody else.
Padideh Jafari (23:15):
Correct.
Scott Silverman (23:16):
You know? If you if you were this or you were
that or you do this or cookdinner half an hour early or,
you know, wash my car or, youknow, take the clothes out or do
or, you know, take the cat out,whatever, and they blame
everybody else. It's never theirfault. They never take
responsibility for anythinguntil they're usually
handcuffed, you know, and behindbars or on a on a gurney at the
(23:38):
emergency department because ofsomething happened because of
their behavior.
Jon McKenney (23:41):
And, you know, it for me, it was always kinda like
a moth to a flame, somebodywho's trauma bonded once to you
you feel like you're kindaelectrically connected to
somebody like that. I canremember when I finally got to
the place, my therapist hadsaid, look. You really kinda
need to emotionally disconnect.It did feel like withdrawal.
Your whole world is kind ofupended and where your natural
(24:07):
learned tendency is to go goright back to that person, even
though you know it's going to bean abusive relationship.
Your heart wants to go do itanyway. So it really can be
difficult. Not to mention, Iwould guess that if you don't do
your homework on trauma bond andwhy you're trauma bonded and
(24:28):
what it is and how it impactsyour life. Ultimately, you can
find another flame, and thatflame may be very similar. I
think this is really part of thethe healing process is
discovering what trauma bond hasbeen for you and what kind of
person you're trauma bonded toso that ultimately you don't put
yourself in the same kind ofsituation again, which is
(24:51):
essentially moving from one drugof choice to another.
Scott Silverman (24:55):
You know? And when I hear you I thought I
heard you say, correct me if I'mwrong, twenty nine years. Is
that is that what it was inrelationship?
Jon McKenney (25:02):
Oh, you you added to, but that's fine. It felt
like more.
Scott Silverman (25:06):
Yeah. I think you said felt like ninety
Jon McKenney (25:07):
or something. It was it's twenty seven.
Scott Silverman (25:09):
So so when someone says to you you need to
emotionally detach, what doesthat even mean? I mean and if
you've never done it, you know,if you've never done it before,
you know, how do you if youdon't have the tools or a road
map or GPS or footprints in thesand, you don't have a mechanism
to do that. That's when peoplesay, oh, you know, you you know,
(25:30):
you need to you need to leavethat person. Well, you don't
know how. I mean, I I see it allthe time in working with people
in early recovery when someonesays, you need to find a higher
power.
Well, wait. If there was a godin my life, why am I here? Why
has my entire family left me?Why did I lose my home? Why did
(25:50):
I file bankruptcy?
Why is my business gone? Why amI, you know, dealing with a
felony on parole right now?
Jon McKenney (25:55):
Well Right.
Scott Silverman (25:56):
It and that's part of the the untreated
traumas. They wanna blamesomebody else, and most people
blame their parents. And whenwhen and when your parents are
gone and you keep blaming yourparents, to me, it's like a it's
a it's a comfortable explanationso you can keep the dysfunction
going, and intervening on thattakes a lot. Because it's really
(26:16):
you know, I'm working with afamily now. It's just it's
incredible.
Separated mom, dad, child intheir thirties. Everyone's
pointing the finger ateverybody, and and, you know,
it's it's uncomfortable. And andit's interesting because I'm
getting emotionally kindaconnected with them because of
of my empathy. But, you know,I've gotta get my boundaries
(26:38):
going because it's important.And I just they're nice people,
and they have great story.
And, you know, they're they'renot from here, so they have a
nice accent. They're easy tolisten to until they start
fighting. So it's amazing. And Ido this all the time, but it
it's it's shocking sometimes howpeople it reminds me of the
(26:58):
flood in Texas where people justget sucked up in this river, and
they don't have a choice. Youknow?
Right. You talk about a bondbecause a bond takes time where
something like that happens inan instant, and all of a sudden,
you're out of control. And noone has tools for things like
that. You can't you can prepareand practice, but when you're in
that stuff, it's it could behorrible.
Jon McKenney (27:19):
You know, it's interesting. You you you kinda
describe two different twodifferent means of discard
almost with a narcissist. Youhave the flood, which is
instantaneous, and some peoplewho are trauma bonded, are
subject to the flood that justcomes in quickly, where they're
discarded, and they've got thisbond to this person. I know I
was I was talking to somebodyjust a couple of weeks ago in a
(27:41):
coaching setting who had beengone from his narcissist for, I
think, a year and a half or twoyears. And she discarded him.
And in an instant, his life isupended, and he's left with this
bond to her and trying to figureout, even to the point of tears
years later, how to go managelife without her when he
genuinely loved her, even inanother relationship with
(28:01):
somebody else and still havingproblems with this. And and
trying to work through this bondto somebody who's discarded him
versus somebody who perhaps isin a relationship with a covert
narcissist like I was, where sheain't leaving because she wants
to protect her image above allelse. So the abuse continues,
and the gift keeps on giving dayafter day after day. And the
(28:23):
narcissist victim has to somehowfind the courage to go walk away
from all of this when everythinginside them, because of the
trauma bond, is saying, stay,stay, stay. It'll get better.
It'll get better. It'll getbetter. There's a happily ever
after when there's really not.
Scott Silverman (28:38):
When the and when the narcissist what I've
seen from the other side ofthat, when the narcissist loses
its their their audience, youknow, they're they just grow up
like a little baby and cry.Meaning, it's almost like, you
know, kryptonite with Superman.So, you know and when you can
help empower someone to moveaway from that, the narcissist
(28:59):
will generally chase for longperiods of time. They won't give
up because that was kind of howthey got their, you know
Padideh Jafari (29:05):
Their supply. Their supply. Supply. Yep. And
that's what my therapist told metoo.
He said, because when mytherapist said, you have to
leave, you have to go somewhereand we made a plan for where I
was going to go. That's exactlywhat happened. And I said, well,
what if I don't open the doorbecause I was living it with my
mom. I had gone back and livedwith my mom and he's like, don't
(29:27):
you understand, don't you knowthis already, he's gonna come
knock on your mom's door becausehe has no shame and that's
exactly what he did. So when Imoved to New York City he would
come and knock on my mom's doorand say where is she and my
mom's like older lady you knowand she's like I don't even
know.
I don't know where my daughteris and she had to lie to him
because he wanted to track medown because I was his supply.
Scott Silverman (29:51):
You were his oxygen. Correct. You're how he
is how he breathed. Without youhe couldn't be what he was.
Padideh Jafari (29:58):
Correct. And it was interesting because he was
already in another relationshipbut of course that didn't matter
right. So that's why for twoyears I cut everything and I
didn't speak to him. And then itwas after I was sort of healed
and understood what it was. Ididn't know it was narcissism by
the way.
Right. I just thought okay he'stoxic. We used to say that word
(30:19):
a lot, he's toxic. Then he foundout because I had to fit you
know, finish the divorce andeverything. And he was like, oh,
that's where you escaped to.
And I was like, yes, that'sexactly where I escaped to. I
escaped from you. And I was ableto say that. Yep. But
Jon McKenney (30:34):
And and he still chases you.
Padideh Jafari (30:36):
Oh, yeah. He's still he's still Scott doesn't
know that. He still DMs me. So,yeah, I mean, it it's it's
difficult. So when my clientscome in and they say, you know,
I wanna do a consultation withyou but I'm not ready to pull
the the plug.
I totally empathize with them, Iunderstand why. And I'm like
look we can do as manyconsultations as you want until
(30:59):
you're ready to finally leavethe situation because you have
to escape, you can't really doit sort of voluntarily. And then
they'll come back like monthslater and they'll say, Okay, now
I'm ready. Because now they'vebuilt up the courage. I send
them to therapy.
Obviously I think that'simportant. And so when they're
ready that's when we pull theplug.
Scott Silverman (31:21):
Well, it's difficult to, you know, pull
people, even push people. AndI'm you know, the longer I've
been doing this and working withothers and I just I've just I
got called in to work with thisgroup out of well, I won't tell
you what state, but they askedme to speak with them. And
they're all retired and verycomfortable, and they they
(31:41):
they're they wanna do something.
Jon McKenney (31:43):
Like Florida.
Scott Silverman (31:44):
Well, Arizona. It's kinda similar. No humidity
or big bugs. But and I and I Idecided I I went to my higher
power, I said, give me thestrength to to to not take a
position with this group. And myposition was, well, if you don't
want to, that's okay.
And I thought I've completelyfailed the the group that wanted
me to help them. And then twodays later, I got this email
(32:07):
thanking me, and they want me tocome back in August, and they're
gonna bring a group four timesthe size. And they loved my okay
philosophy. It's okay. Meaning,if you don't want my my attitude
when the event interventions isif things are going okay, don't
change anything.
And that makes people think.Because if someone's gotten to
me, it's not because, you know,they're
Padideh Jafari (32:29):
not okay.
Scott Silverman (32:30):
It's not it's not like their grilled cheese
sandwich was burned in the pan.I mean, when if someone's
talking to me, it's because, youknow, and I I have people
because when I do media, I givemy phone number out all the
time. (619) 993-2738. And Iencourage people to call me. I
love when my phone rings, andit's a stranger because for me,
it's an opportunity to maybe notgo to a funeral.
(32:51):
And that's how I like to think.I mean, and that may you know,
some people say, well, that's alittle sadistic. Well, it is
what it is, and I love doingthat. And I wanna drink from a
fire hose because I don't wannaI don't wanna go to funerals
anymore. And Amazing.
The the morbidity rate rightnow, you know, with the opioid
crisis and with alcoholism andmental health issues and with
suicides, we've never seen itthis high as a country, and
(33:12):
we're not talking about it. AndI would be willing to bet well,
I know for a fact in in eightyfive percent of domestic
violence issues, at least in ourcommunity, and I'm sure we're a
sample, there's substance abuseinvolved significantly. And with
all the illicit drugs out theretoday and with fentanyl and with
the cartels working hard to keepAmerica supplied, we have to get
(33:37):
better, be better, and dobetter.
Jon McKenney (33:39):
Absolutely. And not not to mention I mean, so
many who are in narcissisticabuse that I've talked to who
are victims of this stuff windup finding themselves in
addiction on the other end of itbecause they're trying to cope.
So so addiction figures in onthe far side of it too.
Scott Silverman (33:55):
Compulsive, obsessive, addictive behavior is
kind of a moniker of anarcissist, in my opinion. I
mean, it's part of that abilityto do it. And narcissism can
come from, you know, anywherefrom sports, dancing, athletics,
you know, chefs. It doesn'tmatter. Students, teachers.
You know, it doesn't there is noboundary around. There's no ZIP
code for it. It's everywhere.And domestic violence has gotten
(34:17):
a lot worse because, you know,who yells at you more than
family? I mean, we we'll dostuff with family.
We won't do with a completestranger because Totally. We
know that they're what can theydo? You know? Get mad and throw
a glass of water on us? So I andI you know?
And, of course, I have adaughter who's in the field, so
we talk a lot about, you know,abuse and how it goes on. And
(34:40):
it's, you know, it's it's thereare there's help and hope for it
is what I wanna say. There areways to get help and hope, and I
hope people can you know, whenthey ask me, I said, well, you
know, tell me more. You know?
Jon McKenney (34:53):
So how so let's say that somebody is listening
to our podcast today, andthey've kind of just discovered
recently what even narcissisticabuse is. And and we're talking
about trauma bond, and theyunderstand this connection. It's
kinda like a moth to a flamedrawing them back to something
that's gonna kill them, or orhurt them significantly. What
(35:14):
would you how what would you sayto those people? How do they
begin the process of recovery?
Scott Silverman (35:20):
The simp the simple way is education, and
then prevention. And in in orderto get educated, you have to get
knowledge. So a, you call me. B,can go online. It'd probably
easier to go online becauseyou're probably up at three in
the morning worrying about, youknow, what the kids are going
through and Yeah.
How how you can be a better dador a better mom or because the
(35:43):
the part of a a domestic issuethat goes on when you have
children is they're witnessingit.
Padideh Jafari (35:48):
Yes. A 100%.
Scott Silverman (35:50):
And they will emulate that good, bad, or
indifferent. So, you know, partof parenting, in my opinion, is
to be a better role model or bea role model that, you know, is
cognitive of having a goodbalance of happiness and joy and
and and, you know, being afamily that works hard. I mean,
there's science around the factthat families who have dinner
(36:10):
three times a week together andtalk have a whole different
outcome with their children. So,you know, to get the education,
if you will, go online and justsay trauma bond or I think I'm
living or what's the definitionof a narcissist? Keep it simple.
You know? And what is what isthe definition of a victim? And
(36:31):
start thinking about it. Andbefore you start talking to
people about what you've read,try to process in your in your
head and maybe seek professionalhelp to find out and sort out
what it is that you're, youknow, discovering in your
current journey. So before youblurt out to, you know, your
significant other, I've justread that you're a narcissist.
Padideh Jafari (36:49):
Oh, yeah. Never say that.
Scott Silverman (36:50):
You know, it's like just like telling a drunk a
drunk, you know, you have adrinking problem. Well, how do
you know that? Well, becauseyou're throwing up on
Jon McKenney (36:55):
your Loading a Like loading a bullet in the
chamber of a gun for them thatthey're pointing at you. It's it
it it's just more ammo for themto use against ultimately.
Scott Silverman (37:04):
Literally called trigger words. You know?
Don't Yeah. Don't give them theammo because they'll they'll get
better at what they do, whichmeans you're gonna be subject to
more pain and more trauma.
Jon McKenney (37:15):
100%. 100%.
Padideh Jafari (37:18):
Yeah. That's yeah. Definitely don't. And we
don't say that in court either.I'm sure your daughter would
testify to that.
Like we never say the wordnarcissist and a lot of times
our client will say can't wejust tell the judge he or she's
a narcissist and I'm likeabsolutely not. But what we do
is we because
Scott Silverman (37:35):
the judge could be.
Padideh Jafari (37:36):
Correct, the judge could be, the attorney
could be, right? I mean there'sso many things. So what we do is
we say keep a journal so we knowand go back as far as you can.
I'd say timeline sometimesbecause with my male clients
they're like what's a journal? Isay do a timeline and and give
me examples and we can tell thejudge these examples of the what
(38:02):
the person did that werenarcissistic without using those
words.
Scott Silverman (38:06):
Yeah. Did did you say the males say what's a
journal? Is that what you said?
Padideh Jafari (38:09):
Yeah. They don't like journaling as much. I find
that some of my clients, theydon't like journaling. They're
like, I don't really wanna writedown my thoughts. I'm like,
okay, that's okay.
So just do a timeline so that Ican see it. And then sometimes
I'll look at their timeline andI'll say, okay. You need to be a
little bit more detailed here.Tell me what that so, yeah, they
don't I don't know.
Scott Silverman (38:30):
Is that a is that a gender deficiency, you
think?
Padideh Jafari (38:33):
I mean, I know John journals. But
Jon McKenney (38:35):
For decades.
Padideh Jafari (38:37):
I've I've told I've asked my husband to
journal, and he won't do it. Buthe'll write down things in his,
like, notes, but he doesn'tconsider that journaling.
Scott Silverman (38:45):
Well, you like journaling, I'll tell you a
secret. A lot people don't know.You know, each one of us has an
inner child. I don't know if youbelieve that or not, but I you
know?
Jon McKenney (38:51):
I do. I have a
Scott Silverman (38:52):
little I have a little Scotty. And and when I
was going through my trainingwith that, they said you have to
go out and you have to find astuffed animal that represents
your inner child. Well,coincidentally, mine is Woody
Woodpecker. Go figure. Butwhat's interesting is if you
write with your oppositedominant hand, that's your inner
child.
Jon McKenney (39:12):
Interesting.
Scott Silverman (39:13):
Wow. Give that a try. You know, even though you
may not do it well, just go,hey, little Scotty. How are you
today? And watch how your heartmelts.
This is my experience. And whatstarts to come from that. So if
you like journaling, this willtake you to another level that
just will make you smile.
Padideh Jafari (39:34):
Wow. We gotta do that, John.
Scott Silverman (39:36):
Not to not together. Separately first,
compare notes, and then you cando it as a group.
Padideh Jafari (39:41):
Okay. Sounds good.
Jon McKenney (39:42):
Well Yeah. I mean, that was a it was a fantastic
process for me. I've I alwaysfound that just the the act of
coming up with the words towrite on the page helps you sift
your thought your thoughts andemotions very naturally in a way
that nothing else does. And andand as you do that, insight
comes to you from, you know,what, as you call our higher
(40:05):
power, we call God here, but it,you know, it it comes to you and
it really does help. And theother thing for journaling for
me, for those of you who are aregoing through narcissistic
abuse, if somebody's gaslightingyou and you're recording exactly
and quickly afterwards, you'rerecording exactly what they say
when they come back to you andsay, I didn't say that.
I said this. I didn't say that.I said this. You can go back to
(40:27):
your journal and refer toexactly what they said, and
it'll keep you sane throughoutthat process too. So it's a it's
a fantastic recovery tool, Ithink.
Scott Silverman (40:36):
Yeah. I'm I know we're running short of
time. I wanna give you one morenugget. That Please do. It's a
tool that I've used for fortyyears, and it's called a godbox.
And I have the old shoebox. Andwhat I do with that is I take my
notes, meditation, complaints.You know? I I got a special
because I was starting to whinea lot about my wife because
(40:56):
sometimes when she's in the roombreathing, I get a little
irritated. So but that's myproblem.
So I got a little tiny post itnote for her that I got eight
and a half by eleven for me. SoI write in there, and then I
fold it up, and I put it in mygodbox. And what happens is it
it empowers me to not beburdened with whatever that is
(41:16):
at that moment. And I give a
Jon McKenney (41:17):
great idea.
Scott Silverman (41:18):
Put it in a little you can call it whatever
you want. You know, you can callit a tray or drawer. I call it a
godbox because I get when I givesomething to god, if you will,
or my higher power, I have bothbecause I am duly diagnosed. So
I want one for each. Yes.
But I put it there, and it helpsme. It lightens my load. I can I
can without having to see atherapist or call a, you know,
hotline or, you know, a crisisline, I feel better because I
(41:43):
feel lighter? And it's an easytool to give anybody. It doesn't
cost any money, and you make upyour own.
You know, I've seen people, theysend me pictures. They've, you
know, they spent a hundred hoursdecorating it, airbrushing it,
and putting their kids' hair andthis and the toenails, and it's
oh my god. But you could do allthat. And I've been doing it for
I filled the mine up for afterten years, and I called my
(42:04):
sponsor at the time. So what Igoes, let's go down to the bay,
and we'll find a fire ring.
We're gonna burn it and give itto put it in the heavens. And
then I started over So I lovethat.
Padideh Jafari (42:13):
I love that too. I'm gonna go start that, and I'm
gonna have one for my husbandtoo. So, anyway, it was so nice
to have you on to
Jon McKenney (42:21):
today's Privilege.
Padideh Jafari (42:22):
Scott. And so how can people find you? How can
people get your book? I knowJohn and I definitely wanna get
your book as well.
Scott Silverman (42:30):
Absolutely. Scott H. Silverman, just Google
me or call me. 619993273. Andyou know people go, oh, I don't
call me.
I absolutely dare you andchallenge you and invite you.
And no matter where you are inthe world, you know, and if
you're thinking, oh, I I don'tknow what I'd say. Well, just
don't call and hang up. Call andjust say, I I I heard you. I saw
(42:50):
you, and I I have a question,and ask the question.
I mean, we're not gonna spend anhour and a half. I'm not flying
out to your home, you know,unless you have a private plane
and you wanna bring us togetherand we'll go see John. Well,
we'll wait till, you know, we'llwait till it's a little cooler
weather. You know, come out toSan Diego. I mean, right right
now, it's just beautiful here.
Padideh Jafari (43:08):
He was just here. He was here two weeks ago
because we had a podcast launchparty, and he came to the
studio, which was so nice tohave him. But, you know, I just
I really I really hope and praythat this episode was good for
our listeners, I feel like,because I wish that I knew what
(43:28):
Trauma Bond was Totally. Youknow, fifteen years ago. Yes.
But thank you so much for beinghere.
Scott Silverman (43:34):
My pleasure. It was an honor talking to both of
you and I do hope that somebodygets the message.
Jon McKenney (43:39):
Scott, it really has been an honor and pleasure.
And honestly, in addition tobeing hilarious, you're deeply
kind and, and to make yourselfavailable to people like that is
amazing. So thank you so muchfor being here. And, and we do
look forward to another timewith you. We hope you have a
wonderful afternoon again.
Thank you, Scott. And we'll seeyou again soon.
Voiceover (44:02):
Thank you for listening to the narcissist
abuse recovery channel. Be sureto follow and subscribe wherever
you get your podcasts. To hearother episodes or read the
associated blogs, visitwww.narcissistabuserecoverychannel.com
and be sure to follow us onInstagram with the handle narc.
(44:22):
Podcast. The guest views,thoughts, and opinions expressed
are their own.
The information presented is forgeneral informational purposes
only and is not intended to belegal advice. The co hosts are
not licensed therapists. Seekprofessional help as information
is often state specific. TheNarcissist Abuse Recovery
(44:42):
Channel is produced in studiosin California and Georgia.
It's bad and I see it with my clients when they
come in they're like I justcan't leave.
Voiceover (00:13):
Welcome to the narcissist abuse recovery
channel with John McKenney andPadida Jafari.
Jon McKenney (00:18):
Padidah it's good to see you.
Padideh Jafari (00:20):
Hi John, how are you?
Jon McKenney (00:22):
Very good. It's just not the same being together
again like it was before. I soenjoyed being out there in LA
with you, actually in San Diegoand doing the recording. This is
our first time recording againin a couple of weeks, and, it's
good to catch up with you again.
Padideh Jafari (00:36):
Yeah. Nice to see you. How's everything in
Atlanta?
Jon McKenney (00:41):
Hot. It's been about a 100 degrees every day
for the last, week and a half ortwo weeks. So, my car is baking,
and if you go outside, it issweltering. Mhmm.
Padideh Jafari (00:53):
I don't like the sound of that.
Jon McKenney (00:55):
No. It's it's a it's a far cry from LA. So where
where the temperature is justalways nice and moderate, and
and you enjoy a really, reallytemperate weather out there. So
it's, but it's good. And youknow what?
I saw today, the new naked gunmovie is coming out. So I am
really excited about that, Igotta tell you.
Padideh Jafari (01:15):
You and my husband, he's excited about
that.
Jon McKenney (01:18):
Oh, send him over. We'll go see it. I've I've
actually got tickets fortonight, and it did really well
on Rotten Tomatoes. It almostgot a perfect score. So, and
anything with Pamela Anderson,you know, it can't be bad.
Padideh Jafari (01:30):
Agree. Agree. And I'm so happy she's, dating
again. She's dating a Liam
Jon McKenney (01:35):
Oh, is she?
Padideh Jafari (01:36):
Yeah Liam Neeson who you know lost his wife on a
ski accident and she was afamous actress as well and he
said he would never getremarried and that that was the
love of his life. And here he islike, you know, years later with
Pamela Anderson. They they saythat they're dating.
Jon McKenney (01:56):
Now did you know that Liam Neeson is the star of
the naked gun? So maybe they meton set.
Padideh Jafari (02:02):
Correct. Yes. I believe that's the case. So
Jon McKenney (02:05):
Well, we wish them well.
Padideh Jafari (02:06):
Yes. So I have exciting news because I have my
friend here in studio with me,Scott Silverman. Say hello.
Scott Silverman (02:16):
Hello. I could do that.
Padideh Jafari (02:19):
Yes. So let me tell you a little bit about
Scott. He's a renowned crisiscoach, family negotiator. He is
he has won the CNN CNN Hero ofthe Week renowned recipient. I
had never heard that.
Jon McKenney (02:37):
Wow, no, didn't know that was an award. That's
amazing. Yes. It sounds amazing.
Padideh Jafari (02:42):
So he delivers insights for over forty years of
working with individuals acrossall socioeconomic spectrums. And
he has just written andpublished a book called, wait
for the title, You're Not God.That Job is Taken.
Jon McKenney (03:03):
I like that.
Padideh Jafari (03:04):
That's such a great title. Right?
Jon McKenney (03:06):
I know some people I can give that book to already.
Padideh Jafari (03:10):
So we wanna welcome you to the studio,
Scott. And this is a great honorto have you.
Scott Silverman (03:16):
Thank you so much. Really great to be here.
Padideh Jafari (03:18):
So today we're going to talk about, John, you
want to tell us what we're goingtalk about today?
Jon McKenney (03:23):
Trauma bonding.
Padideh Jafari (03:24):
Yes. Trauma bonding and addiction, actually,
is of Scott's specialtiesbecause he talks about addiction
a lot. So what do you thinkabout that title? Trauma bond
and addiction.
Scott Silverman (03:38):
Well, it can't get any more fun than that. I
think they're they'reinterwoven. You know, we were
just kind of looking at a a aupdated definition of trauma
bond, which kinda reminds me,you know, of the Stockholm
syndrome where there is somebodysomebody who's actually the term
I like or prefer is holdingsomeone hostage, and it's
(03:59):
usually the victim, if you will,and domestic violence is a huge
problem. And it's part of thatstigma just like addiction.
People don't talk about it, andit goes on a lot.
And it it's interesting. Youknow? I'm I'm in the Jewish
faith, and we have a lot of it.We've had actually a lot of
growth over the last twentyyears with that going on. And
(04:20):
because there's different sectsof our our faith and different
levels of commitment, and a lotof it's dictated by the man, if
you will, in many cases.
And it's something that istreatable, but until it gets
discovered, there's usuallysomeone who's in harm's way for
quite some time. And theaddiction side of it is
someone's generally mood moodaltering, you know, and self
(04:43):
medicating, to try to deal withit one way or another.
Jon McKenney (04:45):
Yeah. Now, Scott, let let's go back to the origins
of this. You talked aboutStockholm syndrome a little bit.
That that actually goes back towar and captivity, does it not?
Scott Silverman (04:55):
Correct. But where the individual who is, you
know, dealing with the victim,that victim falls in love or
gets connected to the batterer,if you will, and they they
believe that it's their job todo whatever needs to be done to
console, confirm, or comply withthat individual. That's why I I
see the similarity with the, youknow, the trauma bond.
Jon McKenney (05:19):
Mhmm. And how does somebody how how does somebody
find their way to trauma bond? Iyou know, that they they just
get involved with a narcissistand it happens? It happened in
all cases or most? Or talk talkto us a little bit about that.
Scott Silverman (05:33):
I I think my my experience with, you know,
dealing with families is it it'skinda the way you ask that
quite. Then no one reallytravels down the road to, hey,
honey. Let's go to trauma bondland. It it's just it's a it's a
happenstance of what happenswhen when there's somebody who
is, in many cases, a narcissistor suffers from a god complex
(05:54):
and believes that their way isthe only way and everyone in the
family will do exactly what theysay or there's gonna be a
consequence. And thatconsequence, is is creating the
trauma, and trauma untreatedonly gets amplified.
Yes. Trauma untreated only, youknow, infects the entire family.
I mean, one of the things that,you we work with veterans here a
(06:16):
lot in San Diego at ConfidentialRecovery in our Veterans
Navigation Center. And whatwe've learned about PTS, and the
studies show that if somebodycomes back from, you know,
events with the, you know,military and their PTS goes
untreated, it's like the flu, ifyou will. The rest of the family
gets PTS.
Padideh Jafari (06:36):
So
Scott Silverman (06:37):
with untreated trauma, what happens is everyone
can be impacted by it.
Jon McKenney (06:43):
Interesting. Interesting. So so as you know,
our audience is a group ofpeople primarily who who are
interested in narcissism, notbecause they are them, because
the hit narcissists wouldn'twouldn't spend the time on a a
podcast like ours, but, becausepeople think they're victims of
narcissistic abuse. What whatare some of the key signs, you
(07:06):
know, that that we can talkabout here today that would help
somebody know if they're in, inin trauma bond or not? I know I
I I think in my own relationshipand I I was married to a covert
narcissist for twenty sevenyears Or like I tell people when
they ask, how long were youmarried?
About ninety years. It felt likethat at least.
Padideh Jafari (07:24):
I
Jon McKenney (07:28):
was in a position where I felt like I was so
emotionally connected and andmet with a therapist who's like,
why are you why are you doingthis? And it was very hard to
kinda get away from thatemotional connection. Is that
that kinda what it is, or whatare some of the what are some of
the signs of this?
Scott Silverman (07:46):
Well, it's I think it's very similar when you
when you speak of it that way,and you mentioned covert, you
know, and it probably in someways might have been overt as
well. The, addiction in afamily, you know, it's fifteen
percent of our populationsuffers in some form of
addiction, untreated addiction,and the balance of the people
around them, because it's afamily disease, also suffer Yes.
(08:10):
From the consequences of thataddiction. And when you think
about the person who's got theproblem in in the addiction
field, if you will, fifteenpercent suffer from addiction,
but eight people are impactednegatively by that person who
has the addiction. So you thinkabout that.
That's eighty five percent plusof our country right now that
(08:32):
are being impacted by it. Sowhen you factor in the trauma
piece and and a lot of what youknow, trauma, in my opinion, be
and I'm not a clinician or adoctor, but my experience is
it's it's kind of like if youhave an illness and it goes
untreated, it gets worse becauseit doesn't start as trauma.
Mhmm. You know? Like but itbuilds, and then trauma on top
(08:53):
of trauma untreated creates allkinds of underlying issues.
And most people who don'tprocess it are gonna either
implode or explode. And,unfortunately, it's gotta be
treated just like when peoplesay, well, gee, I, you know, I
do interventions. And they say,can you come get my son and just
take him somewhere? You know?And try please don't bring him
back.
(09:14):
We'll pay you. I said, no. No.That's not how it works. And,
you know, in families, it's it'skept very secret.
You know? It is a stigma. It'snot something soccer moms talk
about. It's it's not something,you know, it it that goes on
when people meet, you know, atpickleball and go, yeah. I'm
living with an abusivesignificant other, and I don't
(09:35):
know what to do with them.
They don't say that out loudbecause then it looks like
they're vulnerable, they'reweak, and then they're also
sitting in an abusiverelationship. And so it's really
hard to talk about.
Padideh Jafari (09:46):
Yeah, I mean I can tell you that in my
marriage, my past marriage,that's exactly what it was. I
mean I was a divorce attorneybeing abused by a malignant
narcissist and I couldn't tellanyone. Part of it because I was
trying to protect his image Andthe other part of it was, okay,
(10:07):
fine, you go and tell someone.Now there's repercussions to
that and they're gonna tell youto leave the person. And I knew
that sort of in the back of mymind and I wasn't ready.
And so it took seven years. Soto your point it's like
addiction, like families andwe've had addiction in our
families so I can also speak tothat. You put your head in the
(10:29):
sand and you just think theperson's gonna get better but
the more you do that the worsethe person gets. And so it's not
until you establish healthyboundaries and say no I'm not
going to be manipulated by theaddict anymore that they sort of
will hit rock bottom, right?Because once you close the door
to them that's when they'llrealize, oh my gosh.
(10:52):
I'm alone in this. Is that isthat true?
Scott Silverman (10:55):
I I think it's a common outcome, you know, when
you're the victim, if you will,or the recipient of the abuse,
you know, because it's reallyhard to tell somebody, you you
know, you know, you're abusingme. You just you don't have that
because it builds over time, andthey chip away at it. And it's
not really a conscious effort.It's more of a subconscious
behavior where they will grow onit. And if they've got a
(11:18):
substance abuse issue, it getsamplified.
So it isn't just, you know, Idon't like you or you're not
doing things I want you to do oryou don't like me. It just
builds over time, and there'soutside influences. And we've
seen with with COVID, we've seenthings amplified like we I've
never seen anything like thisbefore. There's a level of
(11:39):
inability to process feelingsnow that we've never seen
before. Just be and and there'sno studies around it because we
never had that kind ofexperience.
There's a younger generationcoming up now, you you young
people, where, you know, kidswere at home with COVID, and
they spent so much time on theInternet, and they weren't
(11:59):
having that social interactionwith others. And, you know,
parents were frustrated becausethey weren't at school.
Relationships got strainedbecause of what was going on
with the economy, loss of jobs,all the all the trauma around
that event. And there's nostudies yet, and and we're gonna
know in probably about, well,it's five to eight years when
studies start getting donebecause we're seeing this, you
(12:21):
know, issue going on with someof the catastrophic events that
people are doing when they'reacting out. I mean, look at that
current shooter in in in in NewYork.
You know? That that just it'sinsane. You know? When I was
growing up, we'd take a bag ofdog poop and put lighter fluid
on it and ring the doorbell, youknow, and and people come out
Right.
Padideh Jafari (12:38):
I remember the you know, I just wanted to take
a moment here to say that Scottsaid that I was a younger
generation for all thoselistening because that is not
the case, Scott. I am I am mucholder than I look, but I just
wanted to take that moment to
Scott Silverman (12:54):
say that. To be honest, I'm not I'm not
gaslining you. I'm justfabricating the truth my own
comfortable way.
Padideh Jafari (13:00):
Okay. That sounds good. That's hilarious.
Scott Silverman (13:02):
So but I think it comes back to the stigma. You
know, we don't the fact thatwe're talking about this today,
think about it. How I I I don'tdo that very often. You know?
And I I have a podcast that wetalk about these kind of things
all the time because we can.
We don't have any limitations toit, we think it's important, and
we bring people in who've haddifferent experiences. You know?
But I was just thinking about,you know, this topic today, and
(13:23):
there was this couple I wasworking with a couple years ago.
He was a lawyer, and she was adoctor. And he wanted me to fix
her, So and he and he was aboutto turn her into the AMA, which
was pretty bold.
Wow. And he was threatening herwith that. So she was actually a
victim, if you will, of hisabuse, and she because her ego
(13:47):
she was the doctor, and she hada major drinking problem. And he
says, what should I do? And Isaid, well, let me talk with
her.
And, you know, most doctors inin this I think she was just
finishing her residency, wasworking eighteen hours a day.
Wow. And when we spoke, shesaid, you know, I I only drink
when I drive home. And I said,I'm sorry. What?
(14:08):
I only drink, you know, in thein the in the car, so I'm by
myself. I said, but you're inthe car at a freeway. And I you
know, but she said that's theonly time I drink. I said, okay.
So, you know, I I I tried to geta three way conversation, but
neither one of them wanted to tohave that conversation together
because they didn't want theirdirty laundry to be exposed to a
(14:29):
third party, although each oneof them was telling me about it.
Padideh Jafari (14:31):
Yes.
Scott Silverman (14:32):
So, you know, I tried to do an intervention with
him because in many ways, theywere they were forcing each
other. They were amplifying eachother's behavior. They were both
gaslighting each other. It was avery it's duality of domestic
violence from both of them ateach other be because of the
narcissism.
Padideh Jafari (14:48):
Yes.
Scott Silverman (14:49):
And neither one of them took responsibility for
their own behavior, and each oneof them blamed the other for
what was going on. So, you know,those are the kind of things
that one day just explodes, youknow, or or somebody gets up and
leaves because they can't takeit anymore. But in many cases,
they're pointing the finger atsomebody else. And that's part
of that denial.
Jon McKenney (15:10):
Do you think most people have any clue that
they're they're trauma bondedwhen they're in a situation like
that?
Scott Silverman (15:15):
I don't think so, and I think that's what
trauma means with bonding. Imean, you're you're if you're if
you've gotten to the point whereyou're bonded, it's kinda like,
you know, plastic getting toohot and sticking together.
You're just you know, you can'tseparate from it, so you're both
kind of on that, you know,vortex of pain.
Padideh Jafari (15:32):
I can tell you that with my situation, it felt
like he was my drug dealer. Evenwhen we separated, it was so
difficult, Scott. Like, I had tomove and everybody knows my
story that's, you know, been a afollower of ours. I had to move
to New York. I literally had to
Scott Silverman (15:52):
Full geographic.
Padideh Jafari (15:53):
Yes, physically moved for, I lived there
actually thirteen years I was bicoastal but for two years he
didn't even know where I hadgone because I had to get away
from him because there was thattrauma bond. Was like you know
and once, I didn't know the wordfor it obviously but now I do
and it's bad and I see it withmy clients when they come in
(16:17):
they're like I just can't leave,I can't leave. And I'm like well
let's go through the scenariosand I walk through them with
them and then I always recommenda psychotherapist because I
can't do that emotional side ofit for them. But it's really
bad. I mean it's reallydevastating.
Scott Silverman (16:37):
And when they're on fire it's hard to
have a conversation withsomebody. You know when they're
just dancing around on fire. Youknow it's interesting when you
describe that. Used to have anMFT, marriage family therapist,
on our on our team, and I usedto share about how when I ran
the nonprofit, you know, we're afamily business. And he says,
you know what?
We're really not because you'retechnically the father. You're
(16:59):
You the dad. And when youdescribe what he was doing, it's
almost like when your dad sayssomething or your mom says
something, it's law. You justfollow it. When we get into
those because it's the persontheoretically who you wedded
because of strong feelings and aconnection.
So there's that special partthat you you wanna give them
(17:19):
every benefit of the doubt. Youwanna give them as much time as
possible. You wanna make everyexcuse in the book that you can.
And part of that pushing awaybut pulling back is is the bond.
And the trauma is the behaviorthat you're receiving, and
you're not processing it becauseyou really don't believe it's
happening.
And when you tell others, thefirst thing they say is, Why
(17:41):
don't you get out of there? Or,You're breaking it up. Or,
You're too sensitive. Or, Thatcan't be true. Because if it
was, why would you stay there?
Padideh Jafari (17:48):
Correct. 100%. So they're gaslighting you
without even knowing thatthey're gaslighting you. And so
that becomes another trauma ontop of the trauma.
Scott Silverman (17:58):
The victim in many cases is gaslighting
themselves.
Padideh Jafari (18:03):
Correct.
Scott Silverman (18:04):
There you know you were saying I can deal with
this. I'm a mature person. Ichose this person. We chose each
other. We can get past this.
The problem is if there's anillness or there's a behavior or
there's a twist in the brain orthey have untreated trauma. And
you know, it's interesting. Mostcases of untreated trauma go
(18:25):
back to most people's childhood.
Padideh Jafari (18:27):
Correct.
Scott Silverman (18:28):
And it happens at a young age, and it never
gets treated over time. And whathappens is it becomes like this
cancer that, you know, like theintegrator of the brain,
everything goes through that. Sowhen it hits you, it's a 100
times worse than it would benormally because it's already
amplified inside your body,mind, and soul. Those aren't
(18:51):
necessarily the therapeuticterms, but I think they're
easier for people to understandbecause it's like, know, when
people call me and say, well,how do I well, you don't go on
YouTube. Someone's got a mentalhealth issue.
It's too opaque. You go see aspecialist. And when people
families tell me we're we'regonna love we're gonna love
them, but you're you're lovingthem to death and and you and
(19:15):
you become a victim as well.
Jon McKenney (19:16):
You know, I mean, that's the interesting thing.
You know? Stockholm syndrome isis somebody who's trauma bonded
perhaps to a captor, but butwhen you're trauma bonded
perhaps to a spouse or to aparent, love muddies the water,
trying to figure out ordistinguish between genuine love
(19:39):
for somebody, and I'm not gonnagive up on them, and marital
commitments, and all of thatversus, okay, I'm being abused
for somebody, which particularlyfor for men, and I'm I'm work
primarily with men, is a a toughadmission anyways, even to
oneself. And then to acknowledgethe the trauma bond and to to
sift through that versus genuinefeelings of love for somebody is
(20:02):
a difficult process at best.
Scott Silverman (20:05):
Oh, and, well, with men, it's even worse
because between the ego and theself pride and, you know, the
you're in charge and you'resupposed to be responsible and,
you know, you're you're theprovider and, you know, you're
supposed to look good and be hipslick and cool all the time.
It's it's even tougher. Andthat's part of the denial part
of it. You know? I think it justcompounds the problem.
And, you know, when you thinkabout trauma, it's it's
(20:27):
something that we talk a lotabout. And and the way I've, you
know, understood, you know, likeEMDR, which is one of the
techniques to deal with trauma,is trauma gets stuck in this,
you know, little box in yourbrain, and you need techniques
to open that box and take thatstuff out. It won't work. You
can't organically wish it awayor will it away. And you can
only meditate to a certainpoint.
(20:48):
It's going to take therapeuticsupport, maybe working with
different groups and otherindividuals, like minded
individuals who have sufferedfrom it, and accepting the fact
that, you know, it's not yourfault.
Padideh Jafari (20:59):
Right.
Scott Silverman (21:00):
It's not your fault when you're the victim.
And people when they're victimsthey think that there must be
something I'm not doing right.
Padideh Jafari (21:07):
Right. Well the guilt is really strong too right
because you're detaching fromthe person who has been your
supplier for so many years andso there's a lot of guilt there.
We talk about that in one of ourepisodes that I had two years
worth of guilt. I felt like, ohmy gosh, I've left this person.
(21:28):
Is it my fault?
Could I have done thingsdifferently? And only the empath
really does that, right? Thenarcissist doesn't do that
because they've already moved onto the next relationship and so
it was very difficult. Andprocess of healing for me, took,
so I was married for, I was withhim for seven years and it took
(21:49):
exactly double the time. So ittook fourteen years.
And I would say that I still gettriggered sometimes. And I have
a wonderful husband now thatknows when I get triggered and
I'll say that's kind oftriggering and so he knows where
that comes from. And so mine wasa lot of sexual abuse as well
(22:10):
with him and so it's exactlyright. I couldn't do it by
myself. I needed to go totherapy, I worked out, I was
very always at the gym doing alot of meditation, I was close
to my family at the time andthen also working out was very
important in my life.
Scott Silverman (22:31):
And it's punitive for you to have to go
through all of that when intheory, not theory, in fact, you
were the victim.
Padideh Jafari (22:41):
Correct.
Scott Silverman (22:41):
And but if you don't if you didn't do that, you
know, how do we you know, how doyou know how things might have
ended up if you didn't work onyourself? And and and it takes
what it takes, you know, likethat saying, it takes what it
takes. But for so many people,they don't. They don't, you
know, they don't have the innerstrength. They don't have other
family members they can rely on,and they get stuck.
(23:03):
And there's nothing they can dobecause they're too afraid to
leave, meaning the alternativethey feel would be worse than
what they've got there going on.And the narcissist doesn't even
the it's narcissist blameseverybody else.
Padideh Jafari (23:15):
Correct.
Scott Silverman (23:16):
You know? If you if you were this or you were
that or you do this or cookdinner half an hour early or,
you know, wash my car or, youknow, take the clothes out or do
or, you know, take the cat out,whatever, and they blame
everybody else. It's never theirfault. They never take
responsibility for anythinguntil they're usually
handcuffed, you know, and behindbars or on a on a gurney at the
(23:38):
emergency department because ofsomething happened because of
their behavior.
Jon McKenney (23:41):
And, you know, it for me, it was always kinda like
a moth to a flame, somebodywho's trauma bonded once to you
you feel like you're kindaelectrically connected to
somebody like that. I canremember when I finally got to
the place, my therapist hadsaid, look. You really kinda
need to emotionally disconnect.It did feel like withdrawal.
Your whole world is kind ofupended and where your natural
(24:07):
learned tendency is to go goright back to that person, even
though you know it's going to bean abusive relationship.
Your heart wants to go do itanyway. So it really can be
difficult. Not to mention, Iwould guess that if you don't do
your homework on trauma bond andwhy you're trauma bonded and
(24:28):
what it is and how it impactsyour life. Ultimately, you can
find another flame, and thatflame may be very similar. I
think this is really part of thethe healing process is
discovering what trauma bond hasbeen for you and what kind of
person you're trauma bonded toso that ultimately you don't put
yourself in the same kind ofsituation again, which is
(24:51):
essentially moving from one drugof choice to another.
Scott Silverman (24:55):
You know? And when I hear you I thought I
heard you say, correct me if I'mwrong, twenty nine years. Is
that is that what it was inrelationship?
Jon McKenney (25:02):
Oh, you you added to, but that's fine. It felt
like more.
Scott Silverman (25:06):
Yeah. I think you said felt like ninety
Jon McKenney (25:07):
or something. It was it's twenty seven.
Scott Silverman (25:09):
So so when someone says to you you need to
emotionally detach, what doesthat even mean? I mean and if
you've never done it, you know,if you've never done it before,
you know, how do you if youdon't have the tools or a road
map or GPS or footprints in thesand, you don't have a mechanism
to do that. That's when peoplesay, oh, you know, you you know,
(25:30):
you need to you need to leavethat person. Well, you don't
know how. I mean, I I see it allthe time in working with people
in early recovery when someonesays, you need to find a higher
power.
Well, wait. If there was a godin my life, why am I here? Why
has my entire family left me?Why did I lose my home? Why did
(25:50):
I file bankruptcy?
Why is my business gone? Why amI, you know, dealing with a
felony on parole right now?
Jon McKenney (25:55):
Well Right.
Scott Silverman (25:56):
It and that's part of the the untreated
traumas. They wanna blamesomebody else, and most people
blame their parents. And whenwhen and when your parents are
gone and you keep blaming yourparents, to me, it's like a it's
a it's a comfortable explanationso you can keep the dysfunction
going, and intervening on thattakes a lot. Because it's really
(26:16):
you know, I'm working with afamily now. It's just it's
incredible.
Separated mom, dad, child intheir thirties. Everyone's
pointing the finger ateverybody, and and, you know,
it's it's uncomfortable. And andit's interesting because I'm
getting emotionally kindaconnected with them because of
of my empathy. But, you know,I've gotta get my boundaries
(26:38):
going because it's important.And I just they're nice people,
and they have great story.
And, you know, they're they'renot from here, so they have a
nice accent. They're easy tolisten to until they start
fighting. So it's amazing. And Ido this all the time, but it
it's it's shocking sometimes howpeople it reminds me of the
(26:58):
flood in Texas where people justget sucked up in this river, and
they don't have a choice. Youknow?
Right. You talk about a bondbecause a bond takes time where
something like that happens inan instant, and all of a sudden,
you're out of control. And noone has tools for things like
that. You can't you can prepareand practice, but when you're in
that stuff, it's it could behorrible.
Jon McKenney (27:19):
You know, it's interesting. You you you kinda
describe two different twodifferent means of discard
almost with a narcissist. Youhave the flood, which is
instantaneous, and some peoplewho are trauma bonded, are
subject to the flood that justcomes in quickly, where they're
discarded, and they've got thisbond to this person. I know I
was I was talking to somebodyjust a couple of weeks ago in a
(27:41):
coaching setting who had beengone from his narcissist for, I
think, a year and a half or twoyears. And she discarded him.
And in an instant, his life isupended, and he's left with this
bond to her and trying to figureout, even to the point of tears
years later, how to go managelife without her when he
genuinely loved her, even inanother relationship with
(28:01):
somebody else and still havingproblems with this. And and
trying to work through this bondto somebody who's discarded him
versus somebody who perhaps isin a relationship with a covert
narcissist like I was, where sheain't leaving because she wants
to protect her image above allelse. So the abuse continues,
and the gift keeps on giving dayafter day after day. And the
(28:23):
narcissist victim has to somehowfind the courage to go walk away
from all of this when everythinginside them, because of the
trauma bond, is saying, stay,stay, stay. It'll get better.
It'll get better. It'll getbetter. There's a happily ever
after when there's really not.
Scott Silverman (28:38):
When the and when the narcissist what I've
seen from the other side ofthat, when the narcissist loses
its their their audience, youknow, they're they just grow up
like a little baby and cry.Meaning, it's almost like, you
know, kryptonite with Superman.So, you know and when you can
help empower someone to moveaway from that, the narcissist
(28:59):
will generally chase for longperiods of time. They won't give
up because that was kind of howthey got their, you know
Padideh Jafari (29:05):
Their supply. Their supply. Supply. Yep. And
that's what my therapist told metoo.
He said, because when mytherapist said, you have to
leave, you have to go somewhereand we made a plan for where I
was going to go. That's exactlywhat happened. And I said, well,
what if I don't open the doorbecause I was living it with my
mom. I had gone back and livedwith my mom and he's like, don't
(29:27):
you understand, don't you knowthis already, he's gonna come
knock on your mom's door becausehe has no shame and that's
exactly what he did. So when Imoved to New York City he would
come and knock on my mom's doorand say where is she and my
mom's like older lady you knowand she's like I don't even
know.
I don't know where my daughteris and she had to lie to him
because he wanted to track medown because I was his supply.
Scott Silverman (29:51):
You were his oxygen. Correct. You're how he
is how he breathed. Without youhe couldn't be what he was.
Padideh Jafari (29:58):
Correct. And it was interesting because he was
already in another relationshipbut of course that didn't matter
right. So that's why for twoyears I cut everything and I
didn't speak to him. And then itwas after I was sort of healed
and understood what it was. Ididn't know it was narcissism by
the way.
Right. I just thought okay he'stoxic. We used to say that word
(30:19):
a lot, he's toxic. Then he foundout because I had to fit you
know, finish the divorce andeverything. And he was like, oh,
that's where you escaped to.
And I was like, yes, that'sexactly where I escaped to. I
escaped from you. And I was ableto say that. Yep. But
Jon McKenney (30:34):
And and he still chases you.
Padideh Jafari (30:36):
Oh, yeah. He's still he's still Scott doesn't
know that. He still DMs me. So,yeah, I mean, it it's it's
difficult. So when my clientscome in and they say, you know,
I wanna do a consultation withyou but I'm not ready to pull
the the plug.
I totally empathize with them, Iunderstand why. And I'm like
look we can do as manyconsultations as you want until
(30:59):
you're ready to finally leavethe situation because you have
to escape, you can't really doit sort of voluntarily. And then
they'll come back like monthslater and they'll say, Okay, now
I'm ready. Because now they'vebuilt up the courage. I send
them to therapy.
Obviously I think that'simportant. And so when they're
ready that's when we pull theplug.
Scott Silverman (31:21):
Well, it's difficult to, you know, pull
people, even push people. AndI'm you know, the longer I've
been doing this and working withothers and I just I've just I
got called in to work with thisgroup out of well, I won't tell
you what state, but they askedme to speak with them. And
they're all retired and verycomfortable, and they they
(31:41):
they're they wanna do something.
Jon McKenney (31:43):
Like Florida.
Scott Silverman (31:44):
Well, Arizona. It's kinda similar. No humidity
or big bugs. But and I and I Idecided I I went to my higher
power, I said, give me thestrength to to to not take a
position with this group. And myposition was, well, if you don't
want to, that's okay.
And I thought I've completelyfailed the the group that wanted
me to help them. And then twodays later, I got this email
(32:07):
thanking me, and they want me tocome back in August, and they're
gonna bring a group four timesthe size. And they loved my okay
philosophy. It's okay. Meaning,if you don't want my my attitude
when the event interventions isif things are going okay, don't
change anything.
And that makes people think.Because if someone's gotten to
me, it's not because, you know,they're
Padideh Jafari (32:29):
not okay.
Scott Silverman (32:30):
It's not it's not like their grilled cheese
sandwich was burned in the pan.I mean, when if someone's
talking to me, it's because, youknow, and I I have people
because when I do media, I givemy phone number out all the
time. (619) 993-2738. And Iencourage people to call me. I
love when my phone rings, andit's a stranger because for me,
it's an opportunity to maybe notgo to a funeral.
(32:51):
And that's how I like to think.I mean, and that may you know,
some people say, well, that's alittle sadistic. Well, it is
what it is, and I love doingthat. And I wanna drink from a
fire hose because I don't wannaI don't wanna go to funerals
anymore. And Amazing.
The the morbidity rate rightnow, you know, with the opioid
crisis and with alcoholism andmental health issues and with
suicides, we've never seen itthis high as a country, and
(33:12):
we're not talking about it. AndI would be willing to bet well,
I know for a fact in in eightyfive percent of domestic
violence issues, at least in ourcommunity, and I'm sure we're a
sample, there's substance abuseinvolved significantly. And with
all the illicit drugs out theretoday and with fentanyl and with
the cartels working hard to keepAmerica supplied, we have to get
(33:37):
better, be better, and dobetter.
Jon McKenney (33:39):
Absolutely. And not not to mention I mean, so
many who are in narcissisticabuse that I've talked to who
are victims of this stuff windup finding themselves in
addiction on the other end of itbecause they're trying to cope.
So so addiction figures in onthe far side of it too.
Scott Silverman (33:55):
Compulsive, obsessive, addictive behavior is
kind of a moniker of anarcissist, in my opinion. I
mean, it's part of that abilityto do it. And narcissism can
come from, you know, anywherefrom sports, dancing, athletics,
you know, chefs. It doesn'tmatter. Students, teachers.
You know, it doesn't there is noboundary around. There's no ZIP
code for it. It's everywhere.And domestic violence has gotten
(34:17):
a lot worse because, you know,who yells at you more than
family? I mean, we we'll dostuff with family.
We won't do with a completestranger because Totally. We
know that they're what can theydo? You know? Get mad and throw
a glass of water on us? So I andI you know?
And, of course, I have adaughter who's in the field, so
we talk a lot about, you know,abuse and how it goes on. And
(34:40):
it's, you know, it's it's thereare there's help and hope for it
is what I wanna say. There areways to get help and hope, and I
hope people can you know, whenthey ask me, I said, well, you
know, tell me more. You know?
Jon McKenney (34:53):
So how so let's say that somebody is listening
to our podcast today, andthey've kind of just discovered
recently what even narcissisticabuse is. And and we're talking
about trauma bond, and theyunderstand this connection. It's
kinda like a moth to a flamedrawing them back to something
that's gonna kill them, or orhurt them significantly. What
(35:14):
would you how what would you sayto those people? How do they
begin the process of recovery?
Scott Silverman (35:20):
The simp the simple way is education, and
then prevention. And in in orderto get educated, you have to get
knowledge. So a, you call me. B,can go online. It'd probably
easier to go online becauseyou're probably up at three in
the morning worrying about, youknow, what the kids are going
through and Yeah.
How how you can be a better dador a better mom or because the
(35:43):
the part of a a domestic issuethat goes on when you have
children is they're witnessingit.
Padideh Jafari (35:48):
Yes. A 100%.
Scott Silverman (35:50):
And they will emulate that good, bad, or
indifferent. So, you know, partof parenting, in my opinion, is
to be a better role model or bea role model that, you know, is
cognitive of having a goodbalance of happiness and joy and
and and, you know, being afamily that works hard. I mean,
there's science around the factthat families who have dinner
(36:10):
three times a week together andtalk have a whole different
outcome with their children. So,you know, to get the education,
if you will, go online and justsay trauma bond or I think I'm
living or what's the definitionof a narcissist? Keep it simple.
You know? And what is what isthe definition of a victim? And
(36:31):
start thinking about it. Andbefore you start talking to
people about what you've read,try to process in your in your
head and maybe seek professionalhelp to find out and sort out
what it is that you're, youknow, discovering in your
current journey. So before youblurt out to, you know, your
significant other, I've justread that you're a narcissist.
Padideh Jafari (36:49):
Oh, yeah. Never say that.
Scott Silverman (36:50):
You know, it's like just like telling a drunk a
drunk, you know, you have adrinking problem. Well, how do
you know that? Well, becauseyou're throwing up on
Jon McKenney (36:55):
your Loading a Like loading a bullet in the
chamber of a gun for them thatthey're pointing at you. It's it
it it's just more ammo for themto use against ultimately.
Scott Silverman (37:04):
Literally called trigger words. You know?
Don't Yeah. Don't give them theammo because they'll they'll get
better at what they do, whichmeans you're gonna be subject to
more pain and more trauma.
Jon McKenney (37:15):
100%. 100%.
Padideh Jafari (37:18):
Yeah. That's yeah. Definitely don't. And we
don't say that in court either.I'm sure your daughter would
testify to that.
Like we never say the wordnarcissist and a lot of times
our client will say can't wejust tell the judge he or she's
a narcissist and I'm likeabsolutely not. But what we do
is we because
Scott Silverman (37:35):
the judge could be.
Padideh Jafari (37:36):
Correct, the judge could be, the attorney
could be, right? I mean there'sso many things. So what we do is
we say keep a journal so we knowand go back as far as you can.
I'd say timeline sometimesbecause with my male clients
they're like what's a journal? Isay do a timeline and and give
me examples and we can tell thejudge these examples of the what
(38:02):
the person did that werenarcissistic without using those
words.
Scott Silverman (38:06):
Yeah. Did did you say the males say what's a
journal? Is that what you said?
Padideh Jafari (38:09):
Yeah. They don't like journaling as much. I find
that some of my clients, theydon't like journaling. They're
like, I don't really wanna writedown my thoughts. I'm like,
okay, that's okay.
So just do a timeline so that Ican see it. And then sometimes
I'll look at their timeline andI'll say, okay. You need to be a
little bit more detailed here.Tell me what that so, yeah, they
don't I don't know.
Scott Silverman (38:30):
Is that a is that a gender deficiency, you
think?
Padideh Jafari (38:33):
I mean, I know John journals. But
Jon McKenney (38:35):
For decades.
Padideh Jafari (38:37):
I've I've told I've asked my husband to
journal, and he won't do it. Buthe'll write down things in his,
like, notes, but he doesn'tconsider that journaling.
Scott Silverman (38:45):
Well, you like journaling, I'll tell you a
secret. A lot people don't know.You know, each one of us has an
inner child. I don't know if youbelieve that or not, but I you
know?
Jon McKenney (38:51):
I do. I have a
Scott Silverman (38:52):
little I have a little Scotty. And and when I
was going through my trainingwith that, they said you have to
go out and you have to find astuffed animal that represents
your inner child. Well,coincidentally, mine is Woody
Woodpecker. Go figure. Butwhat's interesting is if you
write with your oppositedominant hand, that's your inner
child.
Jon McKenney (39:12):
Interesting.
Scott Silverman (39:13):
Wow. Give that a try. You know, even though you
may not do it well, just go,hey, little Scotty. How are you
today? And watch how your heartmelts.
This is my experience. And whatstarts to come from that. So if
you like journaling, this willtake you to another level that
just will make you smile.
Padideh Jafari (39:34):
Wow. We gotta do that, John.
Scott Silverman (39:36):
Not to not together. Separately first,
compare notes, and then you cando it as a group.
Padideh Jafari (39:41):
Okay. Sounds good.
Jon McKenney (39:42):
Well Yeah. I mean, that was a it was a fantastic
process for me. I've I alwaysfound that just the the act of
coming up with the words towrite on the page helps you sift
your thought your thoughts andemotions very naturally in a way
that nothing else does. And andand as you do that, insight
comes to you from, you know,what, as you call our higher
(40:05):
power, we call God here, but it,you know, it it comes to you and
it really does help. And theother thing for journaling for
me, for those of you who are aregoing through narcissistic
abuse, if somebody's gaslightingyou and you're recording exactly
and quickly afterwards, you'rerecording exactly what they say
when they come back to you andsay, I didn't say that.
I said this. I didn't say that.I said this. You can go back to
(40:27):
your journal and refer toexactly what they said, and
it'll keep you sane throughoutthat process too. So it's a it's
a fantastic recovery tool, Ithink.
Scott Silverman (40:36):
Yeah. I'm I know we're running short of
time. I wanna give you one morenugget. That Please do. It's a
tool that I've used for fortyyears, and it's called a godbox.
And I have the old shoebox. Andwhat I do with that is I take my
notes, meditation, complaints.You know? I I got a special
because I was starting to whinea lot about my wife because
(40:56):
sometimes when she's in the roombreathing, I get a little
irritated. So but that's myproblem.
So I got a little tiny post itnote for her that I got eight
and a half by eleven for me. SoI write in there, and then I
fold it up, and I put it in mygodbox. And what happens is it
it empowers me to not beburdened with whatever that is
(41:16):
at that moment. And I give a
Jon McKenney (41:17):
great idea.
Scott Silverman (41:18):
Put it in a little you can call it whatever
you want. You know, you can callit a tray or drawer. I call it a
godbox because I get when I givesomething to god, if you will,
or my higher power, I have bothbecause I am duly diagnosed. So
I want one for each. Yes.
But I put it there, and it helpsme. It lightens my load. I can I
can without having to see atherapist or call a, you know,
hotline or, you know, a crisisline, I feel better because I
(41:43):
feel lighter? And it's an easytool to give anybody. It doesn't
cost any money, and you make upyour own.
You know, I've seen people, theysend me pictures. They've, you
know, they spent a hundred hoursdecorating it, airbrushing it,
and putting their kids' hair andthis and the toenails, and it's
oh my god. But you could do allthat. And I've been doing it for
I filled the mine up for afterten years, and I called my
(42:04):
sponsor at the time. So what Igoes, let's go down to the bay,
and we'll find a fire ring.
We're gonna burn it and give itto put it in the heavens. And
then I started over So I lovethat.
Padideh Jafari (42:13):
I love that too. I'm gonna go start that, and I'm
gonna have one for my husbandtoo. So, anyway, it was so nice
to have you on to
Jon McKenney (42:21):
today's Privilege.
Padideh Jafari (42:22):
Scott. And so how can people find you? How can
people get your book? I knowJohn and I definitely wanna get
your book as well.
Scott Silverman (42:30):
Absolutely. Scott H. Silverman, just Google
me or call me. 619993273. Andyou know people go, oh, I don't
call me.
I absolutely dare you andchallenge you and invite you.
And no matter where you are inthe world, you know, and if
you're thinking, oh, I I don'tknow what I'd say. Well, just
don't call and hang up. Call andjust say, I I I heard you. I saw
(42:50):
you, and I I have a question,and ask the question.
I mean, we're not gonna spend anhour and a half. I'm not flying
out to your home, you know,unless you have a private plane
and you wanna bring us togetherand we'll go see John. Well,
we'll wait till, you know, we'llwait till it's a little cooler
weather. You know, come out toSan Diego. I mean, right right
now, it's just beautiful here.
Padideh Jafari (43:08):
He was just here. He was here two weeks ago
because we had a podcast launchparty, and he came to the
studio, which was so nice tohave him. But, you know, I just
I really I really hope and praythat this episode was good for
our listeners, I feel like,because I wish that I knew what
(43:28):
Trauma Bond was Totally. Youknow, fifteen years ago. Yes.
But thank you so much for beinghere.
Scott Silverman (43:34):
My pleasure. It was an honor talking to both of
you and I do hope that somebodygets the message.
Jon McKenney (43:39):
Scott, it really has been an honor and pleasure.
And honestly, in addition tobeing hilarious, you're deeply
kind and, and to make yourselfavailable to people like that is
amazing. So thank you so muchfor being here. And, and we do
look forward to another timewith you. We hope you have a
wonderful afternoon again.
Thank you, Scott. And we'll seeyou again soon.
Voiceover (44:02):
Thank you for listening to the narcissist
abuse recovery channel. Be sureto follow and subscribe wherever
you get your podcasts. To hearother episodes or read the
associated blogs, visitwww.narcissistabuserecoverychannel.com
and be sure to follow us onInstagram with the handle narc.
(44:22):
Podcast. The guest views,thoughts, and opinions expressed
are their own.
The information presented is forgeneral informational purposes
only and is not intended to belegal advice. The co hosts are
not licensed therapists. Seekprofessional help as information
is often state specific. TheNarcissist Abuse Recovery
(44:42):
Channel is produced in studiosin California and Georgia.
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