June 17, 2025 • 51 mins
Summary
In this episode, Padideh Jafari and Jon McKenney engage in a deep conversation with Bill Eddy, a lawyer and founder of the High Conflict Institute. They explore the complexities of narcissistic relationships, the psychological dynamics that keep individuals trapped, and the strategies for breaking free from such toxic environments. Bill shares insights from his extensive experience in family law and mediation, emphasizing the importance of self-awareness and seeking help in overcoming the challenges posed by high conflict personalities. In this conversation, Padideh Jafari, Esq. and Jon McKenney discuss the complexities of navigating relationships with narcissistic partners, the emotional toll of coercive control, and the challenges of co-parenting in high conflict situations. They emphasize the importance of seeking therapy, understanding the dynamics of abuse, and the necessity of reaching out for support. The discussion also highlights the need for education on recognizing unhealthy patterns and the resources available for individuals in these situations.
Takeaways
- Bill Eddy has a background in social work and law, focusing on high conflict situations.
- Narcissistic relationships often involve a barrage of negative messages that erode self-esteem.
- The principle of reciprocity plays a significant role in abusive dynamics.
- People often feel trapped due to financial and psychological factors in narcissistic relationships.
- Self-talk is crucial for rebuilding self-esteem after abuse.
- Seeking professional help is essential for recovery from narcissistic abuse.
- Cultural awareness about narcissistic abuse is necessary for broader understanding.
- Men may be slower to recognize their own abuse due to societal expectations.
- Healthy relationships require two whole individuals, not one completing the other. Coercive control can manifest financially without physical violence.
- Shame can prevent men from taking action in abusive situations.
- Couples counseling may help, but it's not always effective with narcissists.
- Men often feel their masculinity is challenged in abusive relationships.
- Exhausting all options before leaving a relationship is crucial.
- Co-parenting with a narcissist requires specific skills and strategies.
- Custody disputes can be manipulated by narcissistic parents post-divorce.
- Isolation can exacerbate feelings of helplessness in abusive situations.
- Finding the right therapist is essential for recovery.
- Education and awareness can empower individuals to recognize unhealthy patterns.
Sound Bites
"It's All Your Fault."
"It's like a magnet being held in."
"You're a terrible parent."
"It's a story that they spin."
"You need to be two whole people."
"I should be enough for you."
"No one deserves abuse."
"Don't exhaust yourself there."
"Divorce was not my first thing."
"You need to leave this person."
"It takes two people to make a healthy marriage but only one to make a bad one."
Chapters
00:00 Introduction to the Podcast and Guest
02:24 Bill Eddy's Background and Work
06:57 Understanding Narcissistic Relationships
11:23 The Psychological Dynamics of Leaving
19:45 Strategies for Breaking Free from Narcissistic Abuse
24:23 Understanding Coercive Control and Emotional Abuse
26:01 The Impact of Shame on Men in Abusive Relationships
28:09 Navigating Therapy with Narcissistic Partners
30:55 The Importance of Exhausting Options Before Leaving
34:06 Co-Parenting Challenges with Narcissistic Ex-Partners
37:27 Custody Disputes and Narcissistic Manipulation
42:17 The Importance of Reaching Out for Support
46:04 Finding the Right Support and Understanding the Dynamics of Abuse
47:36 Resources for Navigating High Conflict Relationships
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Bill Eddy (00:08):
Talk to somebody, one person, a friend, a therapist, a
coworker, somebody so thatyou're not isolated with these
feelings with the situation.
Voiceover (00:21):
Escape the grip of a narcissist on our journey to
recovery bliss. This is theNarcissist Abuse Recovery
Channel with John and Padida.
Jon McKenney (00:32):
Good morning, Padideh. How are you today?
Padideh Jafari (00:33):
I'm doing well. How are you?
Jon McKenney (00:35):
It's good to see your smiling face. I hope you
had a wonderful weekend.
Padideh Jafari (00:38):
I did. I did actually. Yeah. It was a little
bit of traffic coming fromOrange County, but not too bad.
I'm just happy to be here andstarting our I almost can't
believe I'm saying that.
No.
Jon McKenney (00:53):
That's amazing. season of the narcissist,
narcissist abuse recoverychannel. I almost forgot who we
were. So it's really exciting tocontinue to be helping people
recover and to highlight issuesthat they might or might not
have. We've heard from an awfullot of people who've listened in
(01:14):
and there's a lot ofidentification going on and
validation for people andhopefully some growth as well as
they learn to managerelationships with narcissists.
Padideh Jafari (01:26):
Yeah, I know. I'm really excited. I know we've
gotten like fifteen five starreviews. So I think that's a
good sign. The main thing is wejust want to help the community
recognize what this is, whatthey're dealing with, and
hopefully recover and come onthe other side of all this.
(01:46):
So I'm just really excited to betaping our third season now.
Jon McKenney (01:51):
Yeah. I actually had a friend of a friend who, my
friend recommended me to thefriend and then found out that
he'd already followed us onSpotify and didn't realize it
was me.
Padideh Jafari (02:05):
Oh my goodness.
Jon McKenney (02:06):
Was kind of funny. That's a really interesting way
to, it's the time that'shappened.
Padideh Jafari (02:10):
Yeah, that's amazing.
Jon McKenney (02:14):
Well, Padilla, you wanna introduce our guest today?
Padideh Jafari (02:17):
Yeah, I'm really excited. So we have Bill Eddy.
Oh my goodness, it's so good tosee you. I'm so excited for this
conversation. I've beenfollowing your work for quite
some time.
I don't know if you know that ornot. You are a lawyer like
myself. I know you started theHigh Conflict Institute. Tell us
(02:38):
a little bit about your work andwhat you do.
Bill Eddy (02:41):
Well, just the progression. I started out as a
clinical social worker, so doingcounseling with children,
adults, couples, and families,psychiatric hospitals,
outpatient clinics. But I foundthat I wanted to kinda help
people resolve their conflictsmore and got interested in
(03:01):
mediation and then decided to goto law school. And I did
primarily to do mediation, butwhen I was in law school, I
realized I kinda liked thepractice of law, the analytical
thinking and and explainingreally what's going on. So I
ended up practicing family lawfor fifteen years after twelve
(03:23):
years as a therapist, thenswitching primarily to mediation
but also education.
So we founded High ConflictInstitute in 02/2008, myself and
Megan Hunter. And we've beenreally educating a lot of family
lawyers, judges, mediators, butalso in the workplace, human
(03:45):
resources, communities,government agencies, police,
etcetera. So high conflict seemsto be everywhere.
Padideh Jafari (03:53):
It really does. It really does. So that's
amazing. So right now currentlyyou don't have practicing family
law, but you're doing sort ofthe consultation, right, and
working with lawyers and clientsand that. Tell us a little bit
about that.
Bill Eddy (04:11):
Yeah. So the consultation really pulls it all
together. And people wanna knowwhat should I do. Maybe they
have a high conflict divorcecase, and maybe they have a
lawyer. And I'll meet with themand their lawyer on Zoom, spend
an hour kind of helping themunderstand dynamics, especially
(04:32):
personality dynamics, but alsostrategies for their family
court case for managing adifficult co parent.
And I'll often work withindividuals who don't have
lawyers, and they go, whatshould I do? Help. I can't
afford 150,000 in legal feesanymore. What should I do? So I
(04:54):
give them tips, give them a lotof resources.
We have articles, books, videos.So we're really a big resource
for managing high conflictsituations. And my consultations
are to give people strategies.So I don't take them as a law
client, don't give legal advice,not doing therapy. I'm helping
(05:15):
them strategize what to do.
And often, nobody else has thisbroad perspective I do, So they
find that really helpful.
Padideh Jafari (05:23):
Yeah. I think what you do is amazing. I mean
and you've written books. Tellus about the books, some of the
titles. You have these, like,great titles to these books.
Tell us some of the books you'vewritten.
Bill Eddy (05:33):
Well, there's there's a wide range. So I've got in
terms of divorce, probably themost popular book is called
splitting, protecting yourselfwhile divorcing someone with
narcissistic or borderlinepersonality disorder. I've also
developed a method called BIF,brief informative friendly and
firm for writing emails to eachother, and that's really our
(05:57):
most popular book. Then, ofcourse, the most recent book is
our new world of adult bulliesbecause we seem to be on the
increase of that. With all theknowledge we have, it's getting
kinda worse and especially sincethe pandemic, and we wanna give
people skills and tools to helpthem calm situations or, if
(06:20):
necessary, disengage.
Padideh Jafari (06:22):
Wow. That's amazing. That's exactly what we
talk about on this podcast is,you know, dealing with high
conflict individuals, you know,narcissists, other cluster b
personality disorders. So we'rejust so thrilled to have you and
we know this is gonna be such anamazing episode for our
listeners. I wanna know fromyour extensive experience both
(06:44):
on being a clinician and anattorney and all the things,
what are the primarypsychological dynamics that make
it so incredibly difficult forsomeone to break away from
relationships with anarcissistic or other cluster B
personality disorders?
Like, what are some of thosewhat makes it so difficult?
Bill Eddy (07:06):
Yeah. It's interesting because on the
surface, it looks like, oh, whydon't you just leave? And yet,
there's it's like a magnet beingheld in. And the psychological
well, of all, there's financialdynamics often. People are
concerned about loss of income,loss of support, all of that.
But the psychological dynamicsare more hidden. And people say
(07:28):
to themselves, well, I know Ishould leave, but but but I just
can't. And part of it is thissense of being worn down that
what, you know, narcissisticpeople put out a lot of
negativity towards the peoplearound them to put themselves
up, they put the people aroundthem down. And so you get a lot
(07:52):
of messages. You know, you're amess.
Look at you. You can't succeedat anything. Without me, you'd
be nothing. That you hear thiskind of thing over and over
again. You're a terrible parent.
The children don't like you. Nownone of this may be true, but
these are the kinds of messages.And what happens is people
absorb those and feel worse andworse and worse. And as time
(08:17):
goes by with a barrage of thesekind of messages, especially if
the person is isolated fromother people, then this is all
they absorb, and they feel worseand worse, less energy, more
depressed, lower self esteem.And it gets harder to get away
because of that.
(08:37):
And there's a dynamic called theprinciple of reciprocity. This
is about relationships that ifyou're a warm, caring person,
you hook up with a warm, caringperson. It goes back and a lot.
But if you get in a relationshipwhere one person's more
domineering and the otherperson's more submissive or
(08:59):
deferential, that just growsworse and worse and worse and
worse. And so people feel I'm aI'm a really inadequate and
competent person.
I I really can't leave.
Padideh Jafari (09:12):
Wow. That's amazing. I can tell you from my
own experience having beenmarried to a an overt narcissist
that that's exactly whathappened. So over a seven year
period it was like you're notgood enough, you're not this,
you're not pretty enough, youknow there's always somebody
better. And so at the end of it,it was like, I'm gonna dump you
(09:34):
for a model.
And it was like, here I was asuccessful lawyer. I was
advocating for other clients. Iwas advocating in DV cases and
all the things that a lawyerdoes, but I was so beaten down.
It was like and then at 34, whenI finally left him, I was only
34 years old. He was like,nobody's gonna want a lawyer.
(09:56):
I mean, who wants to marry adivorce lawyer? And so I really
believe that. So exactly whatyou're saying, you absorb all
that negativity and you start tobelieve that about yourself.
John, did you have somethinglike that with your covert
narcissist ex?
Jon McKenney (10:12):
It was very, it was very passive. While she
would not say these things to meface to face, more because I'd
kind of come after her if shedid, like I was not passive in
the relationship whatsoever. Shewas saying these kinds of things
to other people, therapists andthings like that. So I knew
instinctively that these kindsof things were coming my way,
(10:34):
but it was not the kind of thingwhere I would tolerate that kind
of conversation with me. And Ithink she knew that.
Bill, it sounds like, you know,when people get to the place
where they finally wanna leave,they're at their absolute
lowest. When it comes tonarcissistic abuse, here they
are having to make what areperhaps the most significant
(10:58):
decisions of their livesfinancially and for family and
things like that. And, andthey've been beat down to a
place where they just, they,they've got nothing left and yet
have to go tackle this, thismost difficult of of situations
that they will ever have totackle in their lives.
Bill Eddy (11:16):
Yeah. What what I see is that it's often at that point
that they finally reach out toget help. And I I give the
example in the our new world ofadult bullies book. A singer, a
famous British singer andactress who got into a abusive
relationship with an actor inLos Angeles, and she said for a
(11:39):
year, I just got worn down andworn down and worn down.
Finally, with the help of atherapist, I got out.
And she was like you,successful, everything's going
well, but she believed that shecouldn't leave, that she wasn't
competent. And that's the thing.It's it's a story that they
(11:59):
spin, and it's not the reality.And that's important is to know
this is the story of you, notthe real you. And I think that's
when people turn around.
That's where therapists oftenhelp. But also listening to
programs like this can help.People go, oh, maybe maybe
that's what's going on. There'snothing wrong with me. I've been
(12:22):
worn down by this situation.
Padideh Jafari (12:25):
Well, also wanna say to your point, narcissists,
and I'm sure you agree withthis, they always pick people,
right, that they can getsomething from. So these people
are never losers. These peopleare usually at the height of
their career. They're goingplaces. You know, they either
are wealthy or educated or allthe things, right?
(12:46):
So they think, okay, how can Ibring this really good person
down to my level? So, but Idon't, like if you ask me today
fifteen years after the divorce,how I even believe that, I
couldn't tell you because it waspsychological warfare. And it
was like a drop every day. Itwas like a little bit, right? It
(13:08):
wasn't like all at once, but itwas like just a little bit every
day to make me believe like,yeah, who would want to be with
me?
And fifteen years later, I havea great marriage. My husband
makes, he laughs. He's like,yeah, married a divorce
attorney. Either I'm super smartor I'm really not that smart at
(13:29):
all. And so he jokes about that,but it's like, I can't imagine
how I how I actually believethat about myself.
Bill Eddy (13:37):
That's the thing is that, like you said, it's the
drip, drip, drip, drip, drip.And in many ways, it's subtle
and unconscious. You getarrogant looks at yourself. You
get, little subtle things toshow you that you're
incompetent. And so you startbelieving that.
It's that you start believingtheir story of you. And what's
(13:58):
interesting, you said somethingthat's helpful to understand
with narcissistic abusivepersonalities, is they do start
by wanting to get the prize. Soyou were a prize. You were the
the perfect image of someonesuccessful that will make them
look good, but then they can'thelp themselves. They start
(14:18):
chipping away, chipping away,and creating this story of you
not being a competent person,etcetera.
And so that's what fools peoplewith narcissists because it
looks like they're gonna treatyou like you're a goddess. But
in fact, that's gonna fade oncethey have you, and then they're
(14:38):
gonna chip away.
Padideh Jafari (14:40):
Yes. That's So
Jon McKenney (14:41):
so, Bill, is the is the and you you handle tons
of and you sit with tons ofpeople who are in in high
conflict situations. In yourestimation, are does one of
those two people most of thetime have significantly
narcissistic tendencies? Or isit, you know, cause in my head
(15:03):
I'm going, well, narcissists arealways blaming the person who
they're abusing prettyconsistently. And you have one
person, the dynamic is usuallyhave one person, the victim,
just desperate to try and figureout how to go deal with these
people. And the other justdialing in and giving ridiculous
abuse to the others.
Is that kind of the situationthat you normally encounter?
Bill Eddy (15:26):
Well, yeah, with narcissists, so you see that.
But all abusive personalitieshave different strategies. So
for example, with borderlinepersonality disorder, antisocial
personality disorder, we oftensee more violence. And so
there's research saying thoseare predictive for violence,
although not everyone with thosediagnoses are violent. And so
(15:49):
the violence often wears peopledown.
But the thing with narcissistsis it's this story, this barrage
of, you know, everything aboutyou is bad, and I'm perfect. I'm
wonderful. So I think whathappens is it grows that, you
know, there may be an imbalanceat the beginning because
narcissists are very aggressive.But slowly over time, they
(16:12):
become more aggressive, and theother person becomes more
submissive. And that's thething.
And and people probably hatehearing that, like, I'm not a
submissive person. But in thisrelationship, I'm becoming a
submissive person. And theearlier people can spot that and
realize, wait. This is adynamic. I don't wanna be part
of this, the better.
Padideh Jafari (16:34):
You know, that's interesting because in our
relationship, we werechurchgoing. We were Christians.
We were churchgoing, although Iwas driving most of that. And so
when you say submissive, goes somuch, like the Christian church
is so much about women submit toyour husbands, but they leave
(16:57):
out the part of like, as Christsubmits right God. So that's the
story he kept saying, like,you're not submissive enough.
And I kept saying, oh my gosh,what else do you want me to do?
And so that's talk to to us alittle bit about that submission
part because I don't think thatmaybe our listeners really
(17:19):
understand what you what youmean by that.
Bill Eddy (17:22):
Well, it's it's a psychological concept. Like I
said, that principle ofreciprocity, that there's a give
and take that reinforces eachother. So the the the the
question is if you become asubmissive person in the
relationship, there may bedecisions. I think, you know,
all healthy relationships,people make different decisions
(17:44):
and go, okay. I defer to you onthis decision.
You defer to me on thatdecision. And I think that's
that's what it should be. It'snot you're a lesser person. And
I think that's what gets mixedinto this is you're a lesser
person. I'm a superior person.
And that's very much thenarcissistic theme music is I'm
(18:06):
a superior person. And that'snot healthy in the long term in
relationships.
Jon McKenney (18:12):
I used to joke with my ex. You know? I I used
to call her I used to say, youknow, I married my better half.
And one day she said, I justwant you to know I really
believe that.
Padideh Jafari (18:22):
Oh my goodness.
Jon McKenney (18:24):
Just flat out told me. I I really believe that that
I was the better half and that II was the one who was who was
the real champion and the one tobe had.
Padideh Jafari (18:33):
Oh my goodness.
Jon McKenney (18:36):
Yeah. Sometimes sometimes they get real enough
to to get the the truth out ofthem.
Bill Eddy (18:41):
Well, I think that there's a lot of cultural
beliefs. We get them a lot fromsongs and and such that make
people feel like you're not awhole person unless you have
this other person. And what I'veseen helping people get divorced
and seeing some of them remarryand have new relationships is
you need to be two whole people.And sometimes people need to
(19:04):
take time off, see a therapist,become a whole person, then
you're gonna have a happierrelationship. If you're looking
for part of yourself that's notrealistic and you're not gonna
find that and it sets you up fora problem.
Padideh Jafari (19:18):
So are you saying that the verse, you
complete me and Jerry Maguire isnot true? Is that what you're
saying,
Bill Eddy (19:25):
That's what I'm saying.
Jon McKenney (19:27):
Yep. Yep.
Padideh Jafari (19:28):
So many people describe feeling trapped or
losing their own self therelationship. Can you explain
how the behavior of a narcissistspecifically erodes a person's
ability to diagnose the toxicityand ultimately how does one
person leave?
Bill Eddy (19:49):
Yeah. So of all, so in many ways, narcissists are
acting badly. And what they'redoing is distracting you from
that by saying, it's your fault.You know, I I I shouldn't have
had to do this, but I had tobecause you did this. I'm I'm
preventing you from leaving thehouse because I know you're a
mess.
You're gonna go out there. Youmight have an accident. You
(20:09):
know? You're just you'reincompetent, and I need to do
this to you. And person's going,gee.
What's wrong with me? Well, it'snot them. It's this is wrong.
You should not be blocked fromleaving. Talk about feeling
trapped.
They often say things like, youknow, you don't need them. All
you need is me. I should beenough for you. And so that's
(20:31):
that's part of the pattern ofbeing trapped is emotionally,
psychologically, really becomingtrapped and sometimes
physically, taking your phoneaway, things like that. That's
actually a form of abuse.
In terms of getting out, so Isee three areas. is your self
(20:52):
talk. Start telling yourself,it's not about me. I'm a good
person. I'm okay.
That behavior that's coming atme is the problem. So you build
your self esteem. Rebuild yourself esteem. And I've talked to
people, men and women, morewomen than men are in these
situations, but men also are,that they say, I really thought
(21:16):
there was something wrong withme. And so when I say no one
deserves abuse, no one deservesdis respect.
That the happiest relationshipsare equal relationships. And so
just the self talk. I don'tdeserve this. I'm okay. I'm a
good person.
I I can become strong, and I cando what I need to do. So the
(21:39):
self talk, I'd say, is numberone. You can start that
immediately. is getting help.And I think especially from
professionals, from therapists,from lawyers, etcetera, who've
been through this before.
You're you're a lawyer. You've Idon't know how many cases you've
handled, but you see similarpatterns and you know things
(22:00):
that help people, and you'veseen successes. And so to know
that there is help out there isso important. And then the
thing, I think, is changing thecultural awareness, and that's
where programs like your programis doing this. I think our
(22:20):
books, etcetera, are helpingwith this.
So people really learn theseproblems are going on more than
people realize because they goon in private. So in many ways,
this is exposing a problem butalong with its solutions. So as
people personally gain selfawareness, as they get help, and
(22:40):
as the culture change, that'show I see this getting better.
Jon McKenney (22:43):
Bill, have you had situations where you particular
are slow to understand thatthey're being abused? I've kind
of gotten into this circle oftalking to men and having
conversations. One, they don'tgenerally speaking adopt the
word I'm being, or the phraseI'm being abused so easily. And
(23:04):
I think that also culturally, asyou kind of mentioned, there's
an amount of abuse perhaps thatevery man feels like he should
take. One of the things thatsurprised me, I started asking
around even friends whosemarriages I respected, I'd
asked, Hey, has your wife everhit you?
(23:26):
And the numbers were soridiculously high, I couldn't
believe it. So it's like men arejust expected to absorb some of
this perhaps more than womenwhere they would just cry foul
immediately. So I wonder if youthink that, or if you've seen
that men are kind of slow on theuptake in actually understanding
(23:46):
that.
Bill Eddy (23:47):
Absolutely. So yes, what we see is men tell
themselves, I'm the man. Ishould take it. It's not a big
deal that, you know, no one'sgonna wanna hear about this. In
many cases, the man is largerthan the woman.
And so there's like, I should beable to, you know, cope with
(24:09):
this whether I'm getting slappedor hit. I think of an example I
had which didn't have anyviolence in it, but it had
coercive control financiallywhere the woman convinced the
man he was incompetent withnumbers, and he wasn't. But she
convinced him that she tooktotal control of the finances.
(24:29):
And by the time he came to meabout a divorce, is he said, I
know she's hidden a lot of ourmoney because we're not living
at the lifestyle we should bewith our two incomes. And and
yet he was terrified of facingher.
Like he said, will we have to bein court? Do I have to, you
(24:49):
know, say negative things abouther? And so he was very fearful
emotionally of her and ashamed.And I think shame is often a
factor that that stops men fromtaking action where there's
something like this. And I wannaadd something in here in in
(25:10):
regard to people with the,narcissistic personalities.
In some cases, couplescounseling, family counseling
may make a difference, and inother cases, it might not. So I
don't want to just say discardthe relationship, but have your
eyes open. Try things like that.And if they won't go and they
(25:32):
don't wanna make any efforts tochange, then leaving becomes
sometimes option. So I justwanna get that in there.
But for men and women, it can behard. And for men, that
additional shame, that's youdon't hear about many men saying
this, and that's part of why.
Jon McKenney (25:50):
And I think it's a shot at their masculinity too,
which most men treasure. Youknow, I've not been able to go
manage they feel like, you know,right or not, that they're the
heads of the family and thatthey really should be able to
handle these kinds of things.And when they can't, it's a shot
at their masculinity. I failedas a man.
Bill Eddy (26:12):
Absolutely.
Padideh Jafari (26:13):
So are you saying that you suggest going to
therapy with a narcissist?
Bill Eddy (26:20):
Well, here's here's the thing. I I suggest trying
that and be prepared. Manytherapists don't recognize
narcissists in couples. And thenarcissist will say, hey. You
know, I'm doing okay, but she'sreally a mess.
And she does this, this, this,and this. And the therapist
(26:41):
hears this, this, this, and thisbecause, oh, I have solutions
for that, ma'am. You need towork on blah blah blah blah. And
they just totally go with thenarcissist story of what's
happening.
Padideh Jafari (26:52):
Yes.
Bill Eddy (26:52):
So I think people need to be prepared, but some
people are willing to work onthemselves. And there's a real
spectrum of narcissism Yes. Aswell as other cluster b
personalities, especially. Ialways believe you wanna give it
a shot, but don't exhaustyourself there. If there's no
(27:14):
progress after a couple couple'scounseling sessions, that may
not be helpful.
And if you're getting verballyabused in a couple's session,
which many people report to methat that didn't work, then call
a halt to that. Encourage yourpartner to get counseling
themselves. Get counseling foryourself. So I I just see
(27:38):
because I some people say, well,Bill, you're in a hurry to tell
people to leave, and I'm not. Isee that as as a last resort,
but I don't want people to staystuck in situations that aren't
going to change.
So see if you can get a change.And if you can't, then it may be
time to leave.
Jon McKenney (27:57):
Right. I think that's really good advice. In
fact, I would tell you, I mean,I did that. In fact, one of the
people I work with in my day jobused to be a licensed clinical
therapist. And he said, I'venever seen somebody work so hard
at moving your relationshipforward.
And this over a period, youknow, of twenty seven years and
(28:19):
the last fifteen or so, he knewme, and watched as I tried piece
after piece after piece, elementafter element after element,
including therapy and bringingher to a therapist, which is how
I actually wound up getting herdiagnosed. The nice thing about
your advice, I think Bill, isthat on the other side of having
(28:41):
left and like you, like yousuggest divorce was not my
thing.
Bill Eddy (28:46):
Right.
Jon McKenney (28:47):
You know, that was, that's, it's, I tell people
it was an act of absolutedesperation and protection on my
part towards the end. I just,there was nothing left to go do
and nothing left to go try. Butnow having left, and by the way,
today is the five yearanniversary of my divorce, which
I'm very excited about.
Padideh Jafari (29:08):
I'm glad.
Jon McKenney (29:08):
I'm celebrating with you, Bill.
Bill Eddy (29:10):
There you go.
Jon McKenney (29:11):
Alright. Yeah. There is such peace inside
Bill Eddy (29:16):
Yeah.
Jon McKenney (29:17):
Knowing that I tried app I I I tried everything
I could possibly try. I put myhand to absolutely everything I
could put my hand to. I turnedover every stone I could
possibly turn over to try andbring healing to her and also to
our marriage at the same time.And knowing that I did that,
there's a I sleep really well.I'm able to put my head to the
(29:40):
pillow at night very peacefullyknowing that I really took the
time to try and go make it work.
Bill Eddy (29:46):
Good point. I think that's I
Padideh Jafari (29:48):
can tell you about my experiences that we
went to several differenttherapists because as soon as
the therapist would say, I don'tthink this is going to work, He
would say, okay, we need to gofind a different therapist. And
so really we went to couplestherapists. I went to therapy on
my own. And then towards theend, I found a therapist who
(30:10):
said, you know what, okay, I'veseen you a couple sessions, I
wanna meet him. Well, when hecame in, we were sitting on a
couch like you and I aresitting, Bill.
And he kind of said all hisstuff and the therapist said,
okay, next week I just wanna seeher by herself again. So I went
in and I was really beat down. Imean, I was wearing, literally I
(30:32):
was wearing, my pajamas and Iwas wearing Uggs because like
literally I was so beat down Icouldn't even like fathom
dressing up, right, for thistherapy session. And he said to
me, you need to leave thisperson. If you don't leave this
person, he's going to kill you.
Like that's how, because once hesaw him, that's how, what he got
(30:53):
from it. So I was like, what doyou mean? And he's like, no, no,
no, this is really bad. Like Idon't think you know what you're
dealing with. So you'reabsolutely right.
For us, for me, I had to go totherapy and just make sure that
it wasn't going to work.Otherwise, I don't think I could
have lived with myself becausethere would have always been
(31:13):
this thing in my head. Becauseyou love this person. Right?
Like, that's the other thing.
You're, like, love bonded tothem. You're thinking they're
your savior or, like, there'sgonna be nobody else in the
world for me. So I had to go thedistance just like John did.
Bill Eddy (31:26):
Let me just say, though, that the more educated
people become, the less peoplehave to exhaust themselves with
therapy to become aware, okay, Iam dealing with a pattern that
isn't going to change. Andthat's that's a lot of what I
communicate in court is judgessay, well, let's give this
person another chance. Let's dofifty fifty parenting, and I'm
(31:49):
sure, you know, he'll he'll bemore responsive in the future.
And the thing is if you have tenyears of history showing there's
not going to be a change, isjudges, lawyers, therapists all
need to see when, you know,you're pretty much at a dead end
and acknowledge that. Because Ithink and we say this to
(32:11):
employers too.
They often let high conflictpeople stay a year or two too
long. And so the more educatedpeople become, the earlier they
may see these. But I reallyappreciate what you're each
saying that because youexhausted yourselves with that,
you feel really resolved now.And I think it's good for people
(32:32):
to hear that.
Padideh Jafari (32:33):
And you mentioned, go ahead.
Jon McKenney (32:36):
I was thinking also, the harder part for me was
finding a good therapist. Thinkfinding somebody who actually,
you know, the adage is always,well, it takes two to tango. And
I think when married couples whoare in conflict walk into the
(32:58):
counseling session, if youbelieve that it does that, that
each person is constantly theaggressor, then you wind up in a
situation where you really don'tget help because it takes, you
know, I've always said it takesone, it takes two to build a
good marriage and only one tomake a bad one. And I don't
think that all therapistsbelieve that to be true. Where
(33:24):
perhaps the more empatheticperson who's more than likely
the victim, their problem isloyalty to somebody they, you
know, which is a positivecharacteristic, but it can be
abused as well.
And that certainly that's theirissue. But what they bring to
the table are good things thatare being abused, bad stuff. So
(33:46):
having a therapist that actuallyembraces the fact that it can be
just one who destroys arelationship, I think sometimes
is hard to find.
Padideh Jafari (33:54):
Yeah. Also, you mentioned about sort of this co
parenting space. Obviously as anattorney, I deal with a lot of
couples that have a child orchildren and they're dealing
with this narcissist. Now theyknow what this is, right?
They're like, Okay, my spouse isa narcissist.
How do you resolve, I mean, highconflict, you talk about high
(34:16):
conflict, there it is. Like whatare some of the suggestions for
anyone that's listening todayabout how to resolve conflict or
what do you do when you're inthis co parenting or we call it
anti parenting type ofrelationship?
Bill Eddy (34:32):
A lot of our focus, especially with High Conflict
Institute over the lastseventeen years, is teaching
skills. And our approach is ifwe can teach skills of writing
decent emails. That's our BIFmethod, and we have that book,
BIF for Co parent Communication.If we can teach giving
(34:54):
statements that show empathy,attention, and respect, we call
them ear statements. If we canteach that and have people
practice that, also makingproposals, we have a three step
proposal making method to helppeople make decisions.
And also, we're now teaching anew skill we call SLIC
(35:14):
solutions, SLIC, setting limitsand imposing consequences.
Because with high conflictpeople, you set limits. They
ignore that. You have to haveconsequences. So helping people
think through setting limits andimposing consequences.
By teaching individuals theseskills, they can manage the co
(35:36):
parenting relationship better.And, ideally, if both people get
taught these skills. So wedeveloped a method called New
Ways for Families in 02/2009,and we developed it as a
counseling method, then anonline class, then coaching with
the online class. So we've hadthis going for, what's that,
(35:58):
sixteen years, and the onlineclass for ten years. The idea is
if the court orders people tolearn skills, coparenting
skills, there's a better chancethat they're gonna be able to
soften that relationship andwork together more.
And if both people go throughthis, then they can really
(36:19):
communicate more easily. Andeven if one person goes through
this, they can soften their sideof the co parent as well as
setting limits and imposingconsequences. People have to
think about that, especiallywith a narcissistic co parent.
Padideh Jafari (36:36):
Oh, love that.
Jon McKenney (36:37):
That's And co parenting is the place where the
necessity for having to goresolve high conflict situations
is just ongoing. We talkoftentimes about high conflict
divorces and things like that.There's an end to a divorce at
some point in time thatsomebody, you know, the couple
(36:57):
is afforded the divorce and theydon't have to live in a
relationship anymore and perhapsdeal with each other in the same
kind of way. However, theproblem is oftentimes they're
still having to go deal withthat particular toxic
personality in an ongoingsituation with respect to the
children. That makes it verydifficult long term.
Bill Eddy (37:15):
Yeah. Let me add something here briefly, and that
is a dynamic I see particularlywith narcissistic personalities
after divorce is custodydisputes after divorce where the
narcissist had some unrelatedsetback in their life. Maybe
they had a new relationship andthen it fell apart, or maybe
(37:37):
their job really collapsed orthey had a business that fell
apart. And it's a narcissisticinjury, and they look around.
Where can I kinda rebuildmyself?
You know what? I'm gonna getcustody of our child even though
I have a of the time and theother parent has majority. I'm
gonna put them down. And I'mgonna show I should be the one
(38:00):
who has, primary custody. AndI've seen this happen about 10
times where someone goes back tocourt.
The parent who's had themajority of time is doing fine.
But this parent is so aggressivethat they convince the court
that there's a problem in thecope in the other parent's
(38:20):
behavior and that they shouldget custody. I had a case like
this with a 15 year old. Myclient was the mother. Things
are going fine, and fatherdecides he's had some setbacks.
He's gonna get custody of the 15year old, and so he uses his
time to feed the 15 year old boyall these negative messages
about mom. Boy comes back tomom, says, mom, you know what?
(38:43):
You're annoying. You know what?You're too controlling.
Anyway, so they go to court, andhe gets a recommendation from
the court counselor to beprimary custodial parent. And my
client says, fine. Let him go.So he goes. And then the father
really wasn't that interested inthe boy.
(39:03):
He wanted the title. And hetakes a job out of town. And
he's gone during the week, homeon the weekends. And the boy
goes back to mom's house andsays, guess what, mom? I have an
idea.
Why don't I live with you, butlet's say dad has custody? And
mom calls me, can I do that? AndI said, yeah. I just know at any
(39:25):
time he could pull the plug onit. And that's what they did.
The boy had it figured out.
Padideh Jafari (39:30):
Wow. That's amazing. Yeah. I think a lot of
children these days, it's notlike when I was practicing law
twenty two years ago, I feellike children get it. I've had a
12 year old a couple weeks agocome into mediation and she told
the mediator exactly what shewanted.
She said my dad drinks alcohol.He drives under the influence.
(39:55):
He had the whole the whole thingto the mediator. I was sitting
in there. I couldn't believe howshe was speaking, almost like a
40 or 50 year old person.
And afterwards, I said to her,how did you know how to talk to
the mediator and what to say?She said, oh, on the way to
court, I was texting my friendwhose parents are also getting a
(40:15):
divorce. And so I knew exactlywhat to say and how to say it.
And she's like, it was all true.And I'm like, no, I believe you.
She's like, but I just, youknow, I kinda, so they teach
each other to your point. Butyou're absolutely right that
that 15 year old definitely hadthe father figured out. And so,
that's great that he was able todo that and tell the mom and
(40:39):
kind of explain it to the mom.
Jon McKenney (40:41):
And that's where the kids wind up being involved
in the high conflictrelationship. You know, the
situation Bill described,narcissistic or high conflict
parent actually manipulated thechild to choose. You know, by
the time they're 15, in moststates, can choose who they
wanna go live with.
Bill Eddy (41:01):
Not officially.
Jon McKenney (41:02):
They're manipulating
Bill Eddy (41:03):
Not officially. I wanna make sure people know it's
not officially, in practice,it's
Jon McKenney (41:07):
often the It's different state by state, but
oftentimes they take the child'sdesires into account. By the
time they're 15 years old, wherewould you like to live? And this
manipulation is coming at thechild about the parent who's
generally the victim. That makesit even more difficult. They're
(41:29):
teaching the child to not choosethe parent who's been abused the
whole way.
Padideh Jafari (41:37):
Yeah, I think that's amazing. So what is one
piece of advice that you wouldget for somebody or that you
would give to somebody who'sstruggling to leave? Just one
piece of advice. Like, whatwould that be?
Bill Eddy (41:54):
I'd say number one would be talk to somebody. Don't
be isolated because so manypeople I've I've worked with
were isolated for a long timeand afraid to tell anybody. Talk
to somebody, one person, afriend, a therapist, a coworker,
somebody so that you're notisolated with these feelings,
(42:16):
with the situation, etcetera.And I think, you know, people
just do that. Like, someonethink of someone you can talk
to, that that makes a world ofdifference.
You're not dealing with thisalone. Because so much this goes
on out of sight of everybodyelse, And you need to know it's
(42:36):
really not about you. You don'tdeserve this kind of treatment.
And when you isolate yourself,you start telling yourself you
do deserve this. So one thing,reach out, talk to somebody
about what 's going on.
Padideh Jafari (42:50):
I think that's great advice. I know for myself
I was extremely isolated. It waslike work and home to him. And
he had actually made sure thatmy family was estranged from me.
Even though I had no problemsand I still to this day have no
problems with my family, but hemade sure that they were far
(43:13):
enough.
And so yeah, that isolation,it's almost like that it's
triggering that word because Ifelt very isolated and it was
just my world was just him andhis daughter. That was my world.
And so, that's really goodadvice to just talk to someone.
(43:34):
And, I think that's what I didactually. I went and therapy and
it still took a long timebecause I didn't want to
believe, right?
Because I knew once you admitthat this person is abusing you
in a narcissistic way, then youhave to leave. And I wasn't
ready to leave. And I wasn'tready to give up. That was like,
(43:56):
I'm not going to give up on us,right? So anything else, John,
that you want to talk about?
Jon McKenney (44:03):
Yeah, you want to make sure that those people are
trusted and kind of emotionallycapable of understanding your
situation. In my particularsituation, since I was married
to a covert narcissist, herpublic persona was so good that
the people I reached out to justdidn't believe that it was
(44:23):
possible. I can remember sittingwith a pastor when I was
explaining to him what went on.And he said, here's what I want
you to go do. I want you to gohome.
I want you to make love to yourwife. And I want you to go make
this right. Okay. I'll do that.Like she wanted that anyways.
So it, I've, I found that not,not all people were, were good
(44:47):
people to have a conversationwith, but you have to have
somebody who, who believes you.And will listen to your side of
it. Because again, my situation,the public persona of my ex was
so good, and continues to be sogood. There a group of people
(45:11):
around her, including family andpastors and things like that,
that that believe her andwouldn't even consider or hear,
my side of what was takingplace.
Bill Eddy (45:22):
Yeah. Let me comment a couple things here. One is I
wanna emphasize the concept ofnegative advocates, that what we
see, high conflict people,people with cluster b
personality disordersespecially, are good at
gathering people to tell theirstory to that will believe their
story because that's all they'rehearing. And so negative
(45:43):
advocates reinforce thenarcissistic personality and
understand that that'shappening. Also, a lot of
professionals don't really seethis and have values that block
seeing it, like that all couplecommunication is contributed to
equally by each party.
And I was trained kind of inthat concept, see how each
(46:05):
person contributes. But as Ilearned about, like, the
principle of reciprocity, insome cases, there's an abusive
person and a submissive personto that, and they're not the
cause of their own abuse. Sothere's a lot of education of
professionals. So be preparedfor that. Find people you can
(46:26):
talk to.
That's a lot of theconsultations I do. They haven't
found someone that understands.They read one of my books. They
said, hopefully, you'llunderstand. And that's so
powerful for people to have evenone person who understands
what's going on.
So be aware of that. Educateyourself, and and look for help.
(46:46):
Realize not everybodyunderstands, but there are
people who do.
Jon McKenney (46:51):
Fantastic. Fantastic. Well, it's been a
great conversation. And, Bill,thanks so much for your time
today. Bill, tell tell us howpeople can find you and talk
about your books.
And let's let's go through allthat because these these are
valuable resources for people,particularly who are in high
conflict relationships, forpeople who are in relationships
(47:11):
with, narcissists, who have toget out of relationships with
narcissists, who are coparenting with narcissists. So
tell talk to us about your booksreal quick and and, and how
people can find you.
Bill Eddy (47:22):
Yeah. So highconflictinstitute.com is
where to find me, and you canset up consultations with me.
You can find all our books. Youcan find video training. We have
a lot of one hour videos.
We also have a lot of freearticles that people can get
help from that, you know, justgo sign up for our monthly
(47:46):
newsletter because then weannounce things. So we're we're
definitely a a big resource. Interms of books, I've written
about 20 books, some of themcoauthored. I mentioned the BIF
for Co parent Communicationbook. If you just get one book
and you're facing all of this,that's probably a good one to
(48:07):
get because right away, you canchange your emails so that you'd
feel more empowered.
The book splitting, I mentioned,if you're considering separating
getting divorced, read thatbefore you take any action if
you can. Because we talk aboutways to prepare as well as what
to expect in court, what toexpect from a high conflict
(48:30):
person when things escalate intoa dispute over the kids,
etcetera.
Jon McKenney (48:37):
Mhmm.
Bill Eddy (48:37):
Then there's a variety of other books. Like I
said, our new world of adultbullies just came out last year.
Talks about bullying infamilies, in the workplace, in
communities, everywhere becauseit seems to be increasing. We
have a book, Dating Radar, afterhelping people get divorced from
high conflict situations, ishelping people avoid getting
(49:01):
into these situations. There's alot of warning signs that people
don't know to look for or thatthey ignore.
And so that that's a helpfulbook. Books you can get
anywhere, and a lot of them arealso ebooks so you can listen to
them while you're driving intraffic. All of that.
Jon McKenney (49:20):
And and build the podcast too, which which name I
love. Yes. I laughed. I had agood good belly laugh for that.
Bill Eddy (49:28):
We have a podcast, we've had for several years now,
myself and Megan Hunter, who'sthe CEO of High Conflict
Institute, and it's called It'sAll Your Fault, Dealing With
High Conflict People.
Padideh Jafari (49:41):
That's a great name.
Jon McKenney (49:43):
Fantastic. Well, so much for being with us today
and Padita. So good to see youagain. I'm John McKinney, and
this is the narcissist abuserecovery channel. You can also
find us at a narc.
Podcast on Instagram or,check-in on Spotify or on Apple
Music, and, and you'll find usthere as well just by looking up
narcissist abuse recoverychannel. And, it's been a
(50:07):
fantastic time, and, thank youso much for your attention, and,
we'll look forward to seeing youagain next time.
Speaker 5 (50:14):
Thank you for listening to the Narcissist
Abuse Recovery Channel. Be sureto follow and subscribe wherever
you get your podcasts and besure to follow us on Instagram
with the handle NARC. Podcast.The guest views, thoughts and
opinions expressed are theirown. The information presented
is for general informationpurposes only and is not
(50:34):
intended to be legal advice.
The co hosts are not licensedtherapists. Seek professional
help as information is oftenstate specific. The Narcissist
Abuse Recovery Channel isproduced in studios in San
Diego, California.
Talk to somebody, one person, a friend, a therapist, a
coworker, somebody so thatyou're not isolated with these
feelings with the situation.
Voiceover (00:21):
Escape the grip of a narcissist on our journey to
recovery bliss. This is theNarcissist Abuse Recovery
Channel with John and Padida.
Jon McKenney (00:32):
Good morning, Padideh. How are you today?
Padideh Jafari (00:33):
I'm doing well. How are you?
Jon McKenney (00:35):
It's good to see your smiling face. I hope you
had a wonderful weekend.
Padideh Jafari (00:38):
I did. I did actually. Yeah. It was a little
bit of traffic coming fromOrange County, but not too bad.
I'm just happy to be here andstarting our I almost can't
believe I'm saying that.
No.
Jon McKenney (00:53):
That's amazing. season of the narcissist,
narcissist abuse recoverychannel. I almost forgot who we
were. So it's really exciting tocontinue to be helping people
recover and to highlight issuesthat they might or might not
have. We've heard from an awfullot of people who've listened in
(01:14):
and there's a lot ofidentification going on and
validation for people andhopefully some growth as well as
they learn to managerelationships with narcissists.
Padideh Jafari (01:26):
Yeah, I know. I'm really excited. I know we've
gotten like fifteen five starreviews. So I think that's a
good sign. The main thing is wejust want to help the community
recognize what this is, whatthey're dealing with, and
hopefully recover and come onthe other side of all this.
(01:46):
So I'm just really excited to betaping our third season now.
Jon McKenney (01:51):
Yeah. I actually had a friend of a friend who, my
friend recommended me to thefriend and then found out that
he'd already followed us onSpotify and didn't realize it
was me.
Padideh Jafari (02:05):
Oh my goodness.
Jon McKenney (02:06):
Was kind of funny. That's a really interesting way
to, it's the time that'shappened.
Padideh Jafari (02:10):
Yeah, that's amazing.
Jon McKenney (02:14):
Well, Padilla, you wanna introduce our guest today?
Padideh Jafari (02:17):
Yeah, I'm really excited. So we have Bill Eddy.
Oh my goodness, it's so good tosee you. I'm so excited for this
conversation. I've beenfollowing your work for quite
some time.
I don't know if you know that ornot. You are a lawyer like
myself. I know you started theHigh Conflict Institute. Tell us
(02:38):
a little bit about your work andwhat you do.
Bill Eddy (02:41):
Well, just the progression. I started out as a
clinical social worker, so doingcounseling with children,
adults, couples, and families,psychiatric hospitals,
outpatient clinics. But I foundthat I wanted to kinda help
people resolve their conflictsmore and got interested in
(03:01):
mediation and then decided to goto law school. And I did
primarily to do mediation, butwhen I was in law school, I
realized I kinda liked thepractice of law, the analytical
thinking and and explainingreally what's going on. So I
ended up practicing family lawfor fifteen years after twelve
(03:23):
years as a therapist, thenswitching primarily to mediation
but also education.
So we founded High ConflictInstitute in 02/2008, myself and
Megan Hunter. And we've beenreally educating a lot of family
lawyers, judges, mediators, butalso in the workplace, human
(03:45):
resources, communities,government agencies, police,
etcetera. So high conflict seemsto be everywhere.
Padideh Jafari (03:53):
It really does. It really does. So that's
amazing. So right now currentlyyou don't have practicing family
law, but you're doing sort ofthe consultation, right, and
working with lawyers and clientsand that. Tell us a little bit
about that.
Bill Eddy (04:11):
Yeah. So the consultation really pulls it all
together. And people wanna knowwhat should I do. Maybe they
have a high conflict divorcecase, and maybe they have a
lawyer. And I'll meet with themand their lawyer on Zoom, spend
an hour kind of helping themunderstand dynamics, especially
(04:32):
personality dynamics, but alsostrategies for their family
court case for managing adifficult co parent.
And I'll often work withindividuals who don't have
lawyers, and they go, whatshould I do? Help. I can't
afford 150,000 in legal feesanymore. What should I do? So I
(04:54):
give them tips, give them a lotof resources.
We have articles, books, videos.So we're really a big resource
for managing high conflictsituations. And my consultations
are to give people strategies.So I don't take them as a law
client, don't give legal advice,not doing therapy. I'm helping
(05:15):
them strategize what to do.
And often, nobody else has thisbroad perspective I do, So they
find that really helpful.
Padideh Jafari (05:23):
Yeah. I think what you do is amazing. I mean
and you've written books. Tellus about the books, some of the
titles. You have these, like,great titles to these books.
Tell us some of the books you'vewritten.
Bill Eddy (05:33):
Well, there's there's a wide range. So I've got in
terms of divorce, probably themost popular book is called
splitting, protecting yourselfwhile divorcing someone with
narcissistic or borderlinepersonality disorder. I've also
developed a method called BIF,brief informative friendly and
firm for writing emails to eachother, and that's really our
(05:57):
most popular book. Then, ofcourse, the most recent book is
our new world of adult bulliesbecause we seem to be on the
increase of that. With all theknowledge we have, it's getting
kinda worse and especially sincethe pandemic, and we wanna give
people skills and tools to helpthem calm situations or, if
(06:20):
necessary, disengage.
Padideh Jafari (06:22):
Wow. That's amazing. That's exactly what we
talk about on this podcast is,you know, dealing with high
conflict individuals, you know,narcissists, other cluster b
personality disorders. So we'rejust so thrilled to have you and
we know this is gonna be such anamazing episode for our
listeners. I wanna know fromyour extensive experience both
(06:44):
on being a clinician and anattorney and all the things,
what are the primarypsychological dynamics that make
it so incredibly difficult forsomeone to break away from
relationships with anarcissistic or other cluster B
personality disorders?
Like, what are some of thosewhat makes it so difficult?
Bill Eddy (07:06):
Yeah. It's interesting because on the
surface, it looks like, oh, whydon't you just leave? And yet,
there's it's like a magnet beingheld in. And the psychological
well, of all, there's financialdynamics often. People are
concerned about loss of income,loss of support, all of that.
But the psychological dynamicsare more hidden. And people say
(07:28):
to themselves, well, I know Ishould leave, but but but I just
can't. And part of it is thissense of being worn down that
what, you know, narcissisticpeople put out a lot of
negativity towards the peoplearound them to put themselves
up, they put the people aroundthem down. And so you get a lot
(07:52):
of messages. You know, you're amess.
Look at you. You can't succeedat anything. Without me, you'd
be nothing. That you hear thiskind of thing over and over
again. You're a terrible parent.
The children don't like you. Nownone of this may be true, but
these are the kinds of messages.And what happens is people
absorb those and feel worse andworse and worse. And as time
(08:17):
goes by with a barrage of thesekind of messages, especially if
the person is isolated fromother people, then this is all
they absorb, and they feel worseand worse, less energy, more
depressed, lower self esteem.And it gets harder to get away
because of that.
(08:37):
And there's a dynamic called theprinciple of reciprocity. This
is about relationships that ifyou're a warm, caring person,
you hook up with a warm, caringperson. It goes back and a lot.
But if you get in a relationshipwhere one person's more
domineering and the otherperson's more submissive or
(08:59):
deferential, that just growsworse and worse and worse and
worse. And so people feel I'm aI'm a really inadequate and
competent person.
I I really can't leave.
Padideh Jafari (09:12):
Wow. That's amazing. I can tell you from my
own experience having beenmarried to a an overt narcissist
that that's exactly whathappened. So over a seven year
period it was like you're notgood enough, you're not this,
you're not pretty enough, youknow there's always somebody
better. And so at the end of it,it was like, I'm gonna dump you
(09:34):
for a model.
And it was like, here I was asuccessful lawyer. I was
advocating for other clients. Iwas advocating in DV cases and
all the things that a lawyerdoes, but I was so beaten down.
It was like and then at 34, whenI finally left him, I was only
34 years old. He was like,nobody's gonna want a lawyer.
(09:56):
I mean, who wants to marry adivorce lawyer? And so I really
believe that. So exactly whatyou're saying, you absorb all
that negativity and you start tobelieve that about yourself.
John, did you have somethinglike that with your covert
narcissist ex?
Jon McKenney (10:12):
It was very, it was very passive. While she
would not say these things to meface to face, more because I'd
kind of come after her if shedid, like I was not passive in
the relationship whatsoever. Shewas saying these kinds of things
to other people, therapists andthings like that. So I knew
instinctively that these kindsof things were coming my way,
(10:34):
but it was not the kind of thingwhere I would tolerate that kind
of conversation with me. And Ithink she knew that.
Bill, it sounds like, you know,when people get to the place
where they finally wanna leave,they're at their absolute
lowest. When it comes tonarcissistic abuse, here they
are having to make what areperhaps the most significant
(10:58):
decisions of their livesfinancially and for family and
things like that. And, andthey've been beat down to a
place where they just, they,they've got nothing left and yet
have to go tackle this, thismost difficult of of situations
that they will ever have totackle in their lives.
Bill Eddy (11:16):
Yeah. What what I see is that it's often at that point
that they finally reach out toget help. And I I give the
example in the our new world ofadult bullies book. A singer, a
famous British singer andactress who got into a abusive
relationship with an actor inLos Angeles, and she said for a
(11:39):
year, I just got worn down andworn down and worn down.
Finally, with the help of atherapist, I got out.
And she was like you,successful, everything's going
well, but she believed that shecouldn't leave, that she wasn't
competent. And that's the thing.It's it's a story that they
(11:59):
spin, and it's not the reality.And that's important is to know
this is the story of you, notthe real you. And I think that's
when people turn around.
That's where therapists oftenhelp. But also listening to
programs like this can help.People go, oh, maybe maybe
that's what's going on. There'snothing wrong with me. I've been
(12:22):
worn down by this situation.
Padideh Jafari (12:25):
Well, also wanna say to your point, narcissists,
and I'm sure you agree withthis, they always pick people,
right, that they can getsomething from. So these people
are never losers. These peopleare usually at the height of
their career. They're goingplaces. You know, they either
are wealthy or educated or allthe things, right?
(12:46):
So they think, okay, how can Ibring this really good person
down to my level? So, but Idon't, like if you ask me today
fifteen years after the divorce,how I even believe that, I
couldn't tell you because it waspsychological warfare. And it
was like a drop every day. Itwas like a little bit, right? It
(13:08):
wasn't like all at once, but itwas like just a little bit every
day to make me believe like,yeah, who would want to be with
me?
And fifteen years later, I havea great marriage. My husband
makes, he laughs. He's like,yeah, married a divorce
attorney. Either I'm super smartor I'm really not that smart at
(13:29):
all. And so he jokes about that,but it's like, I can't imagine
how I how I actually believethat about myself.
Bill Eddy (13:37):
That's the thing is that, like you said, it's the
drip, drip, drip, drip, drip.And in many ways, it's subtle
and unconscious. You getarrogant looks at yourself. You
get, little subtle things toshow you that you're
incompetent. And so you startbelieving that.
It's that you start believingtheir story of you. And what's
(13:58):
interesting, you said somethingthat's helpful to understand
with narcissistic abusivepersonalities, is they do start
by wanting to get the prize. Soyou were a prize. You were the
the perfect image of someonesuccessful that will make them
look good, but then they can'thelp themselves. They start
(14:18):
chipping away, chipping away,and creating this story of you
not being a competent person,etcetera.
And so that's what fools peoplewith narcissists because it
looks like they're gonna treatyou like you're a goddess. But
in fact, that's gonna fade oncethey have you, and then they're
(14:38):
gonna chip away.
Padideh Jafari (14:40):
Yes. That's So
Jon McKenney (14:41):
so, Bill, is the is the and you you handle tons
of and you sit with tons ofpeople who are in in high
conflict situations. In yourestimation, are does one of
those two people most of thetime have significantly
narcissistic tendencies? Or isit, you know, cause in my head
(15:03):
I'm going, well, narcissists arealways blaming the person who
they're abusing prettyconsistently. And you have one
person, the dynamic is usuallyhave one person, the victim,
just desperate to try and figureout how to go deal with these
people. And the other justdialing in and giving ridiculous
abuse to the others.
Is that kind of the situationthat you normally encounter?
Bill Eddy (15:26):
Well, yeah, with narcissists, so you see that.
But all abusive personalitieshave different strategies. So
for example, with borderlinepersonality disorder, antisocial
personality disorder, we oftensee more violence. And so
there's research saying thoseare predictive for violence,
although not everyone with thosediagnoses are violent. And so
(15:49):
the violence often wears peopledown.
But the thing with narcissistsis it's this story, this barrage
of, you know, everything aboutyou is bad, and I'm perfect. I'm
wonderful. So I think whathappens is it grows that, you
know, there may be an imbalanceat the beginning because
narcissists are very aggressive.But slowly over time, they
(16:12):
become more aggressive, and theother person becomes more
submissive. And that's thething.
And and people probably hatehearing that, like, I'm not a
submissive person. But in thisrelationship, I'm becoming a
submissive person. And theearlier people can spot that and
realize, wait. This is adynamic. I don't wanna be part
of this, the better.
Padideh Jafari (16:34):
You know, that's interesting because in our
relationship, we werechurchgoing. We were Christians.
We were churchgoing, although Iwas driving most of that. And so
when you say submissive, goes somuch, like the Christian church
is so much about women submit toyour husbands, but they leave
(16:57):
out the part of like, as Christsubmits right God. So that's the
story he kept saying, like,you're not submissive enough.
And I kept saying, oh my gosh,what else do you want me to do?
And so that's talk to to us alittle bit about that submission
part because I don't think thatmaybe our listeners really
(17:19):
understand what you what youmean by that.
Bill Eddy (17:22):
Well, it's it's a psychological concept. Like I
said, that principle ofreciprocity, that there's a give
and take that reinforces eachother. So the the the the
question is if you become asubmissive person in the
relationship, there may bedecisions. I think, you know,
all healthy relationships,people make different decisions
(17:44):
and go, okay. I defer to you onthis decision.
You defer to me on thatdecision. And I think that's
that's what it should be. It'snot you're a lesser person. And
I think that's what gets mixedinto this is you're a lesser
person. I'm a superior person.
And that's very much thenarcissistic theme music is I'm
(18:06):
a superior person. And that'snot healthy in the long term in
relationships.
Jon McKenney (18:12):
I used to joke with my ex. You know? I I used
to call her I used to say, youknow, I married my better half.
And one day she said, I justwant you to know I really
believe that.
Padideh Jafari (18:22):
Oh my goodness.
Jon McKenney (18:24):
Just flat out told me. I I really believe that that
I was the better half and that II was the one who was who was
the real champion and the one tobe had.
Padideh Jafari (18:33):
Oh my goodness.
Jon McKenney (18:36):
Yeah. Sometimes sometimes they get real enough
to to get the the truth out ofthem.
Bill Eddy (18:41):
Well, I think that there's a lot of cultural
beliefs. We get them a lot fromsongs and and such that make
people feel like you're not awhole person unless you have
this other person. And what I'veseen helping people get divorced
and seeing some of them remarryand have new relationships is
you need to be two whole people.And sometimes people need to
(19:04):
take time off, see a therapist,become a whole person, then
you're gonna have a happierrelationship. If you're looking
for part of yourself that's notrealistic and you're not gonna
find that and it sets you up fora problem.
Padideh Jafari (19:18):
So are you saying that the verse, you
complete me and Jerry Maguire isnot true? Is that what you're
saying,
Bill Eddy (19:25):
That's what I'm saying.
Jon McKenney (19:27):
Yep. Yep.
Padideh Jafari (19:28):
So many people describe feeling trapped or
losing their own self therelationship. Can you explain
how the behavior of a narcissistspecifically erodes a person's
ability to diagnose the toxicityand ultimately how does one
person leave?
Bill Eddy (19:49):
Yeah. So of all, so in many ways, narcissists are
acting badly. And what they'redoing is distracting you from
that by saying, it's your fault.You know, I I I shouldn't have
had to do this, but I had tobecause you did this. I'm I'm
preventing you from leaving thehouse because I know you're a
mess.
You're gonna go out there. Youmight have an accident. You
(20:09):
know? You're just you'reincompetent, and I need to do
this to you. And person's going,gee.
What's wrong with me? Well, it'snot them. It's this is wrong.
You should not be blocked fromleaving. Talk about feeling
trapped.
They often say things like, youknow, you don't need them. All
you need is me. I should beenough for you. And so that's
(20:31):
that's part of the pattern ofbeing trapped is emotionally,
psychologically, really becomingtrapped and sometimes
physically, taking your phoneaway, things like that. That's
actually a form of abuse.
In terms of getting out, so Isee three areas. is your self
(20:52):
talk. Start telling yourself,it's not about me. I'm a good
person. I'm okay.
That behavior that's coming atme is the problem. So you build
your self esteem. Rebuild yourself esteem. And I've talked to
people, men and women, morewomen than men are in these
situations, but men also are,that they say, I really thought
(21:16):
there was something wrong withme. And so when I say no one
deserves abuse, no one deservesdis respect.
That the happiest relationshipsare equal relationships. And so
just the self talk. I don'tdeserve this. I'm okay. I'm a
good person.
I I can become strong, and I cando what I need to do. So the
(21:39):
self talk, I'd say, is numberone. You can start that
immediately. is getting help.And I think especially from
professionals, from therapists,from lawyers, etcetera, who've
been through this before.
You're you're a lawyer. You've Idon't know how many cases you've
handled, but you see similarpatterns and you know things
(22:00):
that help people, and you'veseen successes. And so to know
that there is help out there isso important. And then the
thing, I think, is changing thecultural awareness, and that's
where programs like your programis doing this. I think our
(22:20):
books, etcetera, are helpingwith this.
So people really learn theseproblems are going on more than
people realize because they goon in private. So in many ways,
this is exposing a problem butalong with its solutions. So as
people personally gain selfawareness, as they get help, and
(22:40):
as the culture change, that'show I see this getting better.
Jon McKenney (22:43):
Bill, have you had situations where you particular
are slow to understand thatthey're being abused? I've kind
of gotten into this circle oftalking to men and having
conversations. One, they don'tgenerally speaking adopt the
word I'm being, or the phraseI'm being abused so easily. And
(23:04):
I think that also culturally, asyou kind of mentioned, there's
an amount of abuse perhaps thatevery man feels like he should
take. One of the things thatsurprised me, I started asking
around even friends whosemarriages I respected, I'd
asked, Hey, has your wife everhit you?
(23:26):
And the numbers were soridiculously high, I couldn't
believe it. So it's like men arejust expected to absorb some of
this perhaps more than womenwhere they would just cry foul
immediately. So I wonder if youthink that, or if you've seen
that men are kind of slow on theuptake in actually understanding
(23:46):
that.
Bill Eddy (23:47):
Absolutely. So yes, what we see is men tell
themselves, I'm the man. Ishould take it. It's not a big
deal that, you know, no one'sgonna wanna hear about this. In
many cases, the man is largerthan the woman.
And so there's like, I should beable to, you know, cope with
(24:09):
this whether I'm getting slappedor hit. I think of an example I
had which didn't have anyviolence in it, but it had
coercive control financiallywhere the woman convinced the
man he was incompetent withnumbers, and he wasn't. But she
convinced him that she tooktotal control of the finances.
(24:29):
And by the time he came to meabout a divorce, is he said, I
know she's hidden a lot of ourmoney because we're not living
at the lifestyle we should bewith our two incomes. And and
yet he was terrified of facingher.
Like he said, will we have to bein court? Do I have to, you
(24:49):
know, say negative things abouther? And so he was very fearful
emotionally of her and ashamed.And I think shame is often a
factor that that stops men fromtaking action where there's
something like this. And I wannaadd something in here in in
(25:10):
regard to people with the,narcissistic personalities.
In some cases, couplescounseling, family counseling
may make a difference, and inother cases, it might not. So I
don't want to just say discardthe relationship, but have your
eyes open. Try things like that.And if they won't go and they
(25:32):
don't wanna make any efforts tochange, then leaving becomes
sometimes option. So I justwanna get that in there.
But for men and women, it can behard. And for men, that
additional shame, that's youdon't hear about many men saying
this, and that's part of why.
Jon McKenney (25:50):
And I think it's a shot at their masculinity too,
which most men treasure. Youknow, I've not been able to go
manage they feel like, you know,right or not, that they're the
heads of the family and thatthey really should be able to
handle these kinds of things.And when they can't, it's a shot
at their masculinity. I failedas a man.
Bill Eddy (26:12):
Absolutely.
Padideh Jafari (26:13):
So are you saying that you suggest going to
therapy with a narcissist?
Bill Eddy (26:20):
Well, here's here's the thing. I I suggest trying
that and be prepared. Manytherapists don't recognize
narcissists in couples. And thenarcissist will say, hey. You
know, I'm doing okay, but she'sreally a mess.
And she does this, this, this,and this. And the therapist
(26:41):
hears this, this, this, and thisbecause, oh, I have solutions
for that, ma'am. You need towork on blah blah blah blah. And
they just totally go with thenarcissist story of what's
happening.
Padideh Jafari (26:52):
Yes.
Bill Eddy (26:52):
So I think people need to be prepared, but some
people are willing to work onthemselves. And there's a real
spectrum of narcissism Yes. Aswell as other cluster b
personalities, especially. Ialways believe you wanna give it
a shot, but don't exhaustyourself there. If there's no
(27:14):
progress after a couple couple'scounseling sessions, that may
not be helpful.
And if you're getting verballyabused in a couple's session,
which many people report to methat that didn't work, then call
a halt to that. Encourage yourpartner to get counseling
themselves. Get counseling foryourself. So I I just see
(27:38):
because I some people say, well,Bill, you're in a hurry to tell
people to leave, and I'm not. Isee that as as a last resort,
but I don't want people to staystuck in situations that aren't
going to change.
So see if you can get a change.And if you can't, then it may be
time to leave.
Jon McKenney (27:57):
Right. I think that's really good advice. In
fact, I would tell you, I mean,I did that. In fact, one of the
people I work with in my day jobused to be a licensed clinical
therapist. And he said, I'venever seen somebody work so hard
at moving your relationshipforward.
And this over a period, youknow, of twenty seven years and
(28:19):
the last fifteen or so, he knewme, and watched as I tried piece
after piece after piece, elementafter element after element,
including therapy and bringingher to a therapist, which is how
I actually wound up getting herdiagnosed. The nice thing about
your advice, I think Bill, isthat on the other side of having
(28:41):
left and like you, like yousuggest divorce was not my
thing.
Bill Eddy (28:46):
Right.
Jon McKenney (28:47):
You know, that was, that's, it's, I tell people
it was an act of absolutedesperation and protection on my
part towards the end. I just,there was nothing left to go do
and nothing left to go try. Butnow having left, and by the way,
today is the five yearanniversary of my divorce, which
I'm very excited about.
Padideh Jafari (29:08):
I'm glad.
Jon McKenney (29:08):
I'm celebrating with you, Bill.
Bill Eddy (29:10):
There you go.
Jon McKenney (29:11):
Alright. Yeah. There is such peace inside
Bill Eddy (29:16):
Yeah.
Jon McKenney (29:17):
Knowing that I tried app I I I tried everything
I could possibly try. I put myhand to absolutely everything I
could put my hand to. I turnedover every stone I could
possibly turn over to try andbring healing to her and also to
our marriage at the same time.And knowing that I did that,
there's a I sleep really well.I'm able to put my head to the
(29:40):
pillow at night very peacefullyknowing that I really took the
time to try and go make it work.
Bill Eddy (29:46):
Good point. I think that's I
Padideh Jafari (29:48):
can tell you about my experiences that we
went to several differenttherapists because as soon as
the therapist would say, I don'tthink this is going to work, He
would say, okay, we need to gofind a different therapist. And
so really we went to couplestherapists. I went to therapy on
my own. And then towards theend, I found a therapist who
(30:10):
said, you know what, okay, I'veseen you a couple sessions, I
wanna meet him. Well, when hecame in, we were sitting on a
couch like you and I aresitting, Bill.
And he kind of said all hisstuff and the therapist said,
okay, next week I just wanna seeher by herself again. So I went
in and I was really beat down. Imean, I was wearing, literally I
(30:32):
was wearing, my pajamas and Iwas wearing Uggs because like
literally I was so beat down Icouldn't even like fathom
dressing up, right, for thistherapy session. And he said to
me, you need to leave thisperson. If you don't leave this
person, he's going to kill you.
Like that's how, because once hesaw him, that's how, what he got
(30:53):
from it. So I was like, what doyou mean? And he's like, no, no,
no, this is really bad. Like Idon't think you know what you're
dealing with. So you'reabsolutely right.
For us, for me, I had to go totherapy and just make sure that
it wasn't going to work.Otherwise, I don't think I could
have lived with myself becausethere would have always been
(31:13):
this thing in my head. Becauseyou love this person. Right?
Like, that's the other thing.
You're, like, love bonded tothem. You're thinking they're
your savior or, like, there'sgonna be nobody else in the
world for me. So I had to go thedistance just like John did.
Bill Eddy (31:26):
Let me just say, though, that the more educated
people become, the less peoplehave to exhaust themselves with
therapy to become aware, okay, Iam dealing with a pattern that
isn't going to change. Andthat's that's a lot of what I
communicate in court is judgessay, well, let's give this
person another chance. Let's dofifty fifty parenting, and I'm
(31:49):
sure, you know, he'll he'll bemore responsive in the future.
And the thing is if you have tenyears of history showing there's
not going to be a change, isjudges, lawyers, therapists all
need to see when, you know,you're pretty much at a dead end
and acknowledge that. Because Ithink and we say this to
(32:11):
employers too.
They often let high conflictpeople stay a year or two too
long. And so the more educatedpeople become, the earlier they
may see these. But I reallyappreciate what you're each
saying that because youexhausted yourselves with that,
you feel really resolved now.And I think it's good for people
(32:32):
to hear that.
Padideh Jafari (32:33):
And you mentioned, go ahead.
Jon McKenney (32:36):
I was thinking also, the harder part for me was
finding a good therapist. Thinkfinding somebody who actually,
you know, the adage is always,well, it takes two to tango. And
I think when married couples whoare in conflict walk into the
(32:58):
counseling session, if youbelieve that it does that, that
each person is constantly theaggressor, then you wind up in a
situation where you really don'tget help because it takes, you
know, I've always said it takesone, it takes two to build a
good marriage and only one tomake a bad one. And I don't
think that all therapistsbelieve that to be true. Where
(33:24):
perhaps the more empatheticperson who's more than likely
the victim, their problem isloyalty to somebody they, you
know, which is a positivecharacteristic, but it can be
abused as well.
And that certainly that's theirissue. But what they bring to
the table are good things thatare being abused, bad stuff. So
(33:46):
having a therapist that actuallyembraces the fact that it can be
just one who destroys arelationship, I think sometimes
is hard to find.
Padideh Jafari (33:54):
Yeah. Also, you mentioned about sort of this co
parenting space. Obviously as anattorney, I deal with a lot of
couples that have a child orchildren and they're dealing
with this narcissist. Now theyknow what this is, right?
They're like, Okay, my spouse isa narcissist.
How do you resolve, I mean, highconflict, you talk about high
(34:16):
conflict, there it is. Like whatare some of the suggestions for
anyone that's listening todayabout how to resolve conflict or
what do you do when you're inthis co parenting or we call it
anti parenting type ofrelationship?
Bill Eddy (34:32):
A lot of our focus, especially with High Conflict
Institute over the lastseventeen years, is teaching
skills. And our approach is ifwe can teach skills of writing
decent emails. That's our BIFmethod, and we have that book,
BIF for Co parent Communication.If we can teach giving
(34:54):
statements that show empathy,attention, and respect, we call
them ear statements. If we canteach that and have people
practice that, also makingproposals, we have a three step
proposal making method to helppeople make decisions.
And also, we're now teaching anew skill we call SLIC
(35:14):
solutions, SLIC, setting limitsand imposing consequences.
Because with high conflictpeople, you set limits. They
ignore that. You have to haveconsequences. So helping people
think through setting limits andimposing consequences.
By teaching individuals theseskills, they can manage the co
(35:36):
parenting relationship better.And, ideally, if both people get
taught these skills. So wedeveloped a method called New
Ways for Families in 02/2009,and we developed it as a
counseling method, then anonline class, then coaching with
the online class. So we've hadthis going for, what's that,
(35:58):
sixteen years, and the onlineclass for ten years. The idea is
if the court orders people tolearn skills, coparenting
skills, there's a better chancethat they're gonna be able to
soften that relationship andwork together more.
And if both people go throughthis, then they can really
(36:19):
communicate more easily. Andeven if one person goes through
this, they can soften their sideof the co parent as well as
setting limits and imposingconsequences. People have to
think about that, especiallywith a narcissistic co parent.
Padideh Jafari (36:36):
Oh, love that.
Jon McKenney (36:37):
That's And co parenting is the place where the
necessity for having to goresolve high conflict situations
is just ongoing. We talkoftentimes about high conflict
divorces and things like that.There's an end to a divorce at
some point in time thatsomebody, you know, the couple
(36:57):
is afforded the divorce and theydon't have to live in a
relationship anymore and perhapsdeal with each other in the same
kind of way. However, theproblem is oftentimes they're
still having to go deal withthat particular toxic
personality in an ongoingsituation with respect to the
children. That makes it verydifficult long term.
Bill Eddy (37:15):
Yeah. Let me add something here briefly, and that
is a dynamic I see particularlywith narcissistic personalities
after divorce is custodydisputes after divorce where the
narcissist had some unrelatedsetback in their life. Maybe
they had a new relationship andthen it fell apart, or maybe
(37:37):
their job really collapsed orthey had a business that fell
apart. And it's a narcissisticinjury, and they look around.
Where can I kinda rebuildmyself?
You know what? I'm gonna getcustody of our child even though
I have a of the time and theother parent has majority. I'm
gonna put them down. And I'mgonna show I should be the one
(38:00):
who has, primary custody. AndI've seen this happen about 10
times where someone goes back tocourt.
The parent who's had themajority of time is doing fine.
But this parent is so aggressivethat they convince the court
that there's a problem in thecope in the other parent's
(38:20):
behavior and that they shouldget custody. I had a case like
this with a 15 year old. Myclient was the mother. Things
are going fine, and fatherdecides he's had some setbacks.
He's gonna get custody of the 15year old, and so he uses his
time to feed the 15 year old boyall these negative messages
about mom. Boy comes back tomom, says, mom, you know what?
(38:43):
You're annoying. You know what?You're too controlling.
Anyway, so they go to court, andhe gets a recommendation from
the court counselor to beprimary custodial parent. And my
client says, fine. Let him go.So he goes. And then the father
really wasn't that interested inthe boy.
(39:03):
He wanted the title. And hetakes a job out of town. And
he's gone during the week, homeon the weekends. And the boy
goes back to mom's house andsays, guess what, mom? I have an
idea.
Why don't I live with you, butlet's say dad has custody? And
mom calls me, can I do that? AndI said, yeah. I just know at any
(39:25):
time he could pull the plug onit. And that's what they did.
The boy had it figured out.
Padideh Jafari (39:30):
Wow. That's amazing. Yeah. I think a lot of
children these days, it's notlike when I was practicing law
twenty two years ago, I feellike children get it. I've had a
12 year old a couple weeks agocome into mediation and she told
the mediator exactly what shewanted.
She said my dad drinks alcohol.He drives under the influence.
(39:55):
He had the whole the whole thingto the mediator. I was sitting
in there. I couldn't believe howshe was speaking, almost like a
40 or 50 year old person.
And afterwards, I said to her,how did you know how to talk to
the mediator and what to say?She said, oh, on the way to
court, I was texting my friendwhose parents are also getting a
(40:15):
divorce. And so I knew exactlywhat to say and how to say it.
And she's like, it was all true.And I'm like, no, I believe you.
She's like, but I just, youknow, I kinda, so they teach
each other to your point. Butyou're absolutely right that
that 15 year old definitely hadthe father figured out. And so,
that's great that he was able todo that and tell the mom and
(40:39):
kind of explain it to the mom.
Jon McKenney (40:41):
And that's where the kids wind up being involved
in the high conflictrelationship. You know, the
situation Bill described,narcissistic or high conflict
parent actually manipulated thechild to choose. You know, by
the time they're 15, in moststates, can choose who they
wanna go live with.
Bill Eddy (41:01):
Not officially.
Jon McKenney (41:02):
They're manipulating
Bill Eddy (41:03):
Not officially. I wanna make sure people know it's
not officially, in practice,it's
Jon McKenney (41:07):
often the It's different state by state, but
oftentimes they take the child'sdesires into account. By the
time they're 15 years old, wherewould you like to live? And this
manipulation is coming at thechild about the parent who's
generally the victim. That makesit even more difficult. They're
(41:29):
teaching the child to not choosethe parent who's been abused the
whole way.
Padideh Jafari (41:37):
Yeah, I think that's amazing. So what is one
piece of advice that you wouldget for somebody or that you
would give to somebody who'sstruggling to leave? Just one
piece of advice. Like, whatwould that be?
Bill Eddy (41:54):
I'd say number one would be talk to somebody. Don't
be isolated because so manypeople I've I've worked with
were isolated for a long timeand afraid to tell anybody. Talk
to somebody, one person, afriend, a therapist, a coworker,
somebody so that you're notisolated with these feelings,
(42:16):
with the situation, etcetera.And I think, you know, people
just do that. Like, someonethink of someone you can talk
to, that that makes a world ofdifference.
You're not dealing with thisalone. Because so much this goes
on out of sight of everybodyelse, And you need to know it's
(42:36):
really not about you. You don'tdeserve this kind of treatment.
And when you isolate yourself,you start telling yourself you
do deserve this. So one thing,reach out, talk to somebody
about what 's going on.
Padideh Jafari (42:50):
I think that's great advice. I know for myself
I was extremely isolated. It waslike work and home to him. And
he had actually made sure thatmy family was estranged from me.
Even though I had no problemsand I still to this day have no
problems with my family, but hemade sure that they were far
(43:13):
enough.
And so yeah, that isolation,it's almost like that it's
triggering that word because Ifelt very isolated and it was
just my world was just him andhis daughter. That was my world.
And so, that's really goodadvice to just talk to someone.
(43:34):
And, I think that's what I didactually. I went and therapy and
it still took a long timebecause I didn't want to
believe, right?
Because I knew once you admitthat this person is abusing you
in a narcissistic way, then youhave to leave. And I wasn't
ready to leave. And I wasn'tready to give up. That was like,
(43:56):
I'm not going to give up on us,right? So anything else, John,
that you want to talk about?
Jon McKenney (44:03):
Yeah, you want to make sure that those people are
trusted and kind of emotionallycapable of understanding your
situation. In my particularsituation, since I was married
to a covert narcissist, herpublic persona was so good that
the people I reached out to justdidn't believe that it was
(44:23):
possible. I can remember sittingwith a pastor when I was
explaining to him what went on.And he said, here's what I want
you to go do. I want you to gohome.
I want you to make love to yourwife. And I want you to go make
this right. Okay. I'll do that.Like she wanted that anyways.
So it, I've, I found that not,not all people were, were good
(44:47):
people to have a conversationwith, but you have to have
somebody who, who believes you.And will listen to your side of
it. Because again, my situation,the public persona of my ex was
so good, and continues to be sogood. There a group of people
(45:11):
around her, including family andpastors and things like that,
that that believe her andwouldn't even consider or hear,
my side of what was takingplace.
Bill Eddy (45:22):
Yeah. Let me comment a couple things here. One is I
wanna emphasize the concept ofnegative advocates, that what we
see, high conflict people,people with cluster b
personality disordersespecially, are good at
gathering people to tell theirstory to that will believe their
story because that's all they'rehearing. And so negative
(45:43):
advocates reinforce thenarcissistic personality and
understand that that'shappening. Also, a lot of
professionals don't really seethis and have values that block
seeing it, like that all couplecommunication is contributed to
equally by each party.
And I was trained kind of inthat concept, see how each
(46:05):
person contributes. But as Ilearned about, like, the
principle of reciprocity, insome cases, there's an abusive
person and a submissive personto that, and they're not the
cause of their own abuse. Sothere's a lot of education of
professionals. So be preparedfor that. Find people you can
(46:26):
talk to.
That's a lot of theconsultations I do. They haven't
found someone that understands.They read one of my books. They
said, hopefully, you'llunderstand. And that's so
powerful for people to have evenone person who understands
what's going on.
So be aware of that. Educateyourself, and and look for help.
(46:46):
Realize not everybodyunderstands, but there are
people who do.
Jon McKenney (46:51):
Fantastic. Fantastic. Well, it's been a
great conversation. And, Bill,thanks so much for your time
today. Bill, tell tell us howpeople can find you and talk
about your books.
And let's let's go through allthat because these these are
valuable resources for people,particularly who are in high
conflict relationships, forpeople who are in relationships
(47:11):
with, narcissists, who have toget out of relationships with
narcissists, who are coparenting with narcissists. So
tell talk to us about your booksreal quick and and, and how
people can find you.
Bill Eddy (47:22):
Yeah. So highconflictinstitute.com is
where to find me, and you canset up consultations with me.
You can find all our books. Youcan find video training. We have
a lot of one hour videos.
We also have a lot of freearticles that people can get
help from that, you know, justgo sign up for our monthly
(47:46):
newsletter because then weannounce things. So we're we're
definitely a a big resource. Interms of books, I've written
about 20 books, some of themcoauthored. I mentioned the BIF
for Co parent Communicationbook. If you just get one book
and you're facing all of this,that's probably a good one to
(48:07):
get because right away, you canchange your emails so that you'd
feel more empowered.
The book splitting, I mentioned,if you're considering separating
getting divorced, read thatbefore you take any action if
you can. Because we talk aboutways to prepare as well as what
to expect in court, what toexpect from a high conflict
(48:30):
person when things escalate intoa dispute over the kids,
etcetera.
Jon McKenney (48:37):
Mhmm.
Bill Eddy (48:37):
Then there's a variety of other books. Like I
said, our new world of adultbullies just came out last year.
Talks about bullying infamilies, in the workplace, in
communities, everywhere becauseit seems to be increasing. We
have a book, Dating Radar, afterhelping people get divorced from
high conflict situations, ishelping people avoid getting
(49:01):
into these situations. There's alot of warning signs that people
don't know to look for or thatthey ignore.
And so that that's a helpfulbook. Books you can get
anywhere, and a lot of them arealso ebooks so you can listen to
them while you're driving intraffic. All of that.
Jon McKenney (49:20):
And and build the podcast too, which which name I
love. Yes. I laughed. I had agood good belly laugh for that.
Bill Eddy (49:28):
We have a podcast, we've had for several years now,
myself and Megan Hunter, who'sthe CEO of High Conflict
Institute, and it's called It'sAll Your Fault, Dealing With
High Conflict People.
Padideh Jafari (49:41):
That's a great name.
Jon McKenney (49:43):
Fantastic. Well, so much for being with us today
and Padita. So good to see youagain. I'm John McKinney, and
this is the narcissist abuserecovery channel. You can also
find us at a narc.
Podcast on Instagram or,check-in on Spotify or on Apple
Music, and, and you'll find usthere as well just by looking up
narcissist abuse recoverychannel. And, it's been a
(50:07):
fantastic time, and, thank youso much for your attention, and,
we'll look forward to seeing youagain next time.
Speaker 5 (50:14):
Thank you for listening to the Narcissist
Abuse Recovery Channel. Be sureto follow and subscribe wherever
you get your podcasts and besure to follow us on Instagram
with the handle NARC. Podcast.The guest views, thoughts and
opinions expressed are theirown. The information presented
is for general informationpurposes only and is not
(50:34):
intended to be legal advice.
The co hosts are not licensedtherapists. Seek professional
help as information is oftenstate specific. The Narcissist
Abuse Recovery Channel isproduced in studios in San
Diego, California.
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