August 7, 2024 • 50 mins
If you're feeling emotionally drained and physically exhausted from the aftermath of narcissistic abuse, then you are not alone! Imagine being stuck in a cycle of confusion, unable to see a way out, and feeling like your life is constantly clouded by chaos. The pain and trauma from this experience might be overwhelming, but what if there's a way to break free from this cycle and regain control over your mind and body?
Luke Holbrook is a seasoned personal trainer with a unique perspective on the mind-body connection in healing from narcissistic abuse. Having worked with diverse clients, he understands the transformative power of physical health on emotional well-being. Luke's approach emphasizes the gradual integration of positive choices and physical activity, recognizing the role of exercise in restoring confidence and independence after enduring narcissistic relationships. Through his own experiences and those of his clients, Luke brings a relatable and empathetic understanding to the complexities of emotional recovery, making him a valuable resource for individuals seeking to improve their overall well-being.
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Show sponsored by: Jafari Law & Mediation Office
The key moments in this episode are:
00:00:01 - The Power of Physical Training in Narcissistic Abuse Recovery
00:02:42 - Self-Care and Independence Through Physical Training
00:06:51 - Overcoming Cognitive Distortions with Exercise
00:10:55 - Integrating Self-Care and Confidence
00:13:25 - Affordable and Accessible Self-Care
00:14:42 - Importance of Emotional Wellbeing
00:16:15 - Overcoming Depression and Creating Positive Feedback Loop
00:17:30 - Mind-Body Connection and Emotional Eating
00:19:26 - Personal Wellbeing and Coping Strategies
00:25:19 - Building Discipline and Transforming Mindset
00:27:41 - Overcoming Dislike for Healthy Habits
00:29:23 - Delayed Gratification and Building Momentum
00:30:52 - Importance of Exercise and Mind-Body Connection
00:36:52 - Reasons for Staying in Narcissistic Relationships
00:39:16 - Gym as a Life-Altering Experience
00:41:44 - Importance of Maintenance and Attention in Life
00:42:59 - Impact of Narcissistic Abuse on Health
00:44:56 - Luke's Approach to Training
00:46:44 - Overcoming Physical Challenges and Emotional Resilience
00:49:03 - Podcast Conclusion and Contact Information
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
S1 (00:01):
Oh, lost media.
S2 (00:04):
In a world of hurt and pain, we find our
way to break the chain. A caring heart, a guiding light.
Leading us through the darkest night. With preservation in our soul.
We'll rescue those who've lost control. Escape the grip of
a narcissist on our journey to recovery. Bliss.
S3 (00:28):
Welcome to the narcissist Abuse recovery channel with John and Perdita.
S4 (00:34):
Hey, John, how are you?
S5 (00:36):
Perdita, it's good to see you. How have you been?
S4 (00:39):
I've been doing well. You know, last week I had
my great nephew's birthday. He just turned two years old.
I cannot believe that I am a great aunt. Like,
when did that all happen?
S5 (00:50):
So I had a great aunt. And she said to me,
she goes, you can't call me great aunt unless great
is an adjective. So it's the only way she'd allow
me to go do it. Great. Great is an adjective.
And that was that was it. And and two years old.
Is that the terrible twos or. Or are they the
really terrific twos?
S4 (01:09):
It actually he's terrific. There is nothing there's nothing that
this child could do that would make us say that
he was terrible. He's like in the.
S5 (01:19):
Electrical sockets or anything like that.
S6 (01:21):
Yeah. I don't know if I believe that.
S5 (01:24):
Yeah.
S4 (01:26):
We have a great show today for, um, everyone that
was our guest, actually, Luke. And, um, we're going to
be talking about sort of the mind body connection with, uh,
you know, narcissism and how you can recover from narcissism,
what you need to do. And so we're really excited to, um,
(01:49):
bring on our guest today.
S5 (01:51):
Fantastic. And, you know, this is a narcissist abuse recovery
channel where we we really do want to try to
help you heal from narcissistic abuse. Our guest today is
Luke Holbrook and I. Actually, this is one of the
most unusual situations where I have two people that I
kind of met online through my my recovery channel, amazing people.
(02:12):
Perdita and I have been friends now for years. And
and Luke, I met about a year ago and um,
and Luke, it's interesting. Um, you know, you'd think, why?
Why do I have a personal trainer online on a,
on a narcissist abuse recovery channel and, and Perdita and I,
as we were talking about it, we just discovered this
about each other that, um, both of us really started
(02:33):
our healing from narcissistic abuse. Our first real step was
getting to the gym. So. So we thought, you know what?
We're going to we're going to bring somebody, somebody in
who who understands this, who understands the the connection between
physical and emotional health. And, um, thanks so much for
being here, man.
S6 (02:52):
Yeah. For sure. I mean, thanks for for having me.
There's obviously, you know, that mind body connection that always
plays a role. And then part of it too is
it is choices you make at certain points in time.
So I, you know, I have plenty of times talked
with different clients. It's not just like, okay, what exercises
to do, but it's also, you know, what are the
(03:14):
best choices to make in certain situations. And this relates
a lot to a lot of these situations that you
talk about here on the channel.
S5 (03:20):
And I imagine that when you are, when you're trying
to work people through training, you wind up being a
bit of a therapist the entire way. I mean, you
get to know people. You can't help but get to
know people, and you can't help but get to know
their strengths and weaknesses and and these emotional things. I know,
even for me, um, as as I full disclosure, I
(03:41):
trained with Luke. Luke's amazing. And his brother Seth as well,
who just had little kid. Hey, Seth, good to see you. So, um, but, uh, but, uh,
you can't help but understand something about a person and
what their emotional strengths and weaknesses are. And, um, you know,
narcissists who, uh, who are narcissists, who are victimizing other people.
(04:03):
These victims are in a ridiculously low place oftentimes when
when they realize what they need to go do. And
ultimately that's oftentimes leaving somebody. And, um, and I think
for both of us, we we realized it was like, man,
this is this is something we really need to go address. And, um,
and particularly with the mind being such a, I mean,
(04:28):
it's the mind of a victim oftentimes is just, is
just mentally and emotionally done. They've been gaslighted, they've been
lied to. They've been cheated on. They've been financially abused.
They are as some of them are suicidal, some are worse. Um,
and and it makes for a very difficult situation. So
how can how can this understanding, this understanding the physical
getting getting involved in physical really kind of help your mind.
(04:51):
You described that as mind body. So let's talk about
that a little bit.
S6 (04:55):
Yeah. For sure. I mean, it really comes down to
a level of control of what you can do in
these situations to to make yourself feel better in a
positive direction, a positive outlet. Right. And it's also you're
making a choice that has a delayed result. So it's
it's not an necessarily instant gratification, especially when you're just
starting out. Um, but when you make these choices and
(05:17):
you move in that positive direction, you quickly realize how
it can be a positive outlet. Right. And what that
does is kind of relieve a lot of the emotion
that you may be feeling in the relationship that you're
in or have been as a consequence of that relationship,
and gets you into a better driving seat of kind
of moving forward on the path to recovery. Mhm.
S4 (05:38):
Yeah. It actually gives you it sounds like it gives
you control and victims of narcissistic abuse. One thing they
don't have is control right. Somebody else has been dictating
what they're going through. And and gaslighting them, as John said.
And so this actually gives the victim what we like
(06:00):
to call them, the survivor control over their mind, body
and and emotions. So you're absolutely right.
S6 (06:08):
Yeah. And part of it too is and you guys
can relate, is you're in a very vulnerable state. And
your self-esteem, it may not be in a great place. Right.
So it might even be difficult to get to the gym. Right.
So you kind of look at these in progressive stages
where it's just start with getting active, go outside for
a walk, you know, do something at home that you
(06:29):
may enjoy to do, you know, just move around the
house and then you can work your way into doing
slow routines into the gym, and just get yourself feeling
better into a routine and kind of building some momentum
in that positive direction. And then a bit of that
control starts to return to you, and you start to
think and just feel more clearly about your situation.
S4 (06:47):
I have a story, but I know John does too. Um,
after I left my ex-husband. My mom signed me up
to LA Fitness in Studio City, and I was like, mom,
I'm not going to the gym. I don't know why
you signed me up for the gym. She's like, I
don't care if you have to go there and lie
on the mats. Just, I need you to get out
(07:09):
of the house, okay? Because I had moved back into
the house with my mom. And so that's exactly what
I did, Luke. Like, I literally would wear my gym clothes,
go to the gym, lie on the mats, and just
little by little, I started to say, well, maybe I
could do the treadmill. Maybe I could do the StairMaster
and it, you know. Then I started to go, going
(07:30):
into the sauna and the steam room and all of
that really did help. And so it's funny because I
know John actually is a member of LA fitness now,
so and I know he's got a great story to
share as well. So you're absolutely right. And that's why
you're such an important guest today. Yeah.
S5 (07:49):
My trainer insists that I have a gym membership, So. Yeah,
he's he's a slave driver. Not really. He's he's fantastic
at it. You know, it's, um, it's it's interesting you
talk about control and and, you know, just going back to,
you know, the place where I was, I, there was
this two year period where I first discovered that I
(08:11):
was married to somebody who had narcissistic personality disorder. And
I was, as I can remember, going to a therapist,
and I was as low as I could possibly be.
I don't know that I've ever been so depressed before
in my life. Um, suicidal probably understates it. Um, and
it was. I just decided I'd seen a picture of myself.
(08:33):
I was at a car show with somebody, and and
somebody took a picture of me, and I looked at myself,
and I went like. Like that was as far as I.
I saw that picture, and I'm like, that's as far
as I'm willing to go. Physically. I'm not, I'm not.
Nobody would have called me heavy. Nobody would have called
me fat. I've always been relatively lean. People still said
(08:55):
I was lean, but I didn't like my body and
I didn't like where I was. And so that was
the first motion for me to get back to the gym.
I decided I was going to be in the best
shape of my life. Dropped about £30, found my abs.
My six pack had been in the cooler for years,
pulled that stuff out and and and it started to
(09:15):
be a win for me in about six months time.
That gave me like ridiculous benefit. Um, it was it's
far more than just physical because my mind was was
so mucky, like I couldn't tell up from down left,
from right back, from forward. And and as I began
(09:38):
to train, it was almost like those disciplines that I
was acting out physically carried over into my mind. And
it started to clean up my mind and, and during
that two year process, I would tell you that it
helped me actually prepare for divorce, because there was a
two year window where I was trying to desperately to
make the right decisions. Initially, I had no clarity whatsoever.
(10:01):
Didn't even realize what I was doing when I got
to the gym like you. It was like, you know,
I just I'm like, okay, I'm going for a different reason.
But it wound up being the thing. I think that
helped keep me together. Do you see? Do you see
that kind of stuff a lot, Luke?
S6 (10:16):
Yeah, absolutely. And it's not just, you know, the physical transformation,
which feels great. And we're talking about a level of
control not to necessarily be a control freak, but what
we want to do is build back confidence. Right. To
feel better, to be and improved kind of person. To
make the right choices for yourself, but also create an independence, right?
You can make yourself happy, right? You're not going to be.
(10:38):
You don't need to be codependent on a person, especially
someone that may be narcissistic and have been abusing you
for years. So what this does is start to integrate
something into your life that even if we just start small,
that you start to build a bit of confidence that, hey,
I can make myself feel better and give myself an outlet, right?
S5 (10:55):
Absolutely, absolutely. In fact, I mean, the word we'd probably
use in our culture right now is self-care. Um, and,
and and generally speaking, the the victims of narcissistic abuse
are very empathetic kind of people. They are very sacrificial
kind of people. Um, they've they oftentimes they're they're in
their families for their children. Not not for if absent
(11:18):
the children, they'd have been gone years ago. And, and
they're living this very sacrificial life and they're, they're not
taking care of themselves. Well. And I certainly put myself
in that category. And it became very difficult, um, to, to,
to take care of myself. When I got to the,
to the gym, it was like this first step to
(11:41):
self-care that I, that I, that I could find and
that I could have and and made it ridiculously good
for me. I think as I built momentum, it it
helped me stay together in time and to to really
dial me in on, on some clarity that I would
not otherwise have had.
S6 (12:00):
Yeah. And you and you mentioned clarity and that's a,
you know, kind of a good topic where there's certain
mental experiences that you'll go through when you're emotional. Right?
It might be in a negative or positive way, but there's,
there's something called like cognitive distortion, which there's 13 total.
And this is something that I learned learned from from
my therapist. Right, in a way. And these are things
(12:22):
that include each.
S5 (12:23):
Of the original 13 colonies.
S6 (12:25):
Yeah, exactly. And just to name a few. You know,
there's like all or nothing thinking. There's like overgeneralizing, you know,
a negative mental filter or discounting positives. And everybody does
this to an extent, but it's sort of the, the
level that you do this on each one of those things. And,
you know, the reason why we're bringing this up is
because to get a certain clarity when you're in an
(12:47):
abusive relationship or in an emotional state, you're not thinking clearly, right?
And that may be about yourself, about the relationship. You can't.
And John, you said you couldn't tell between left right, front, backwards.
You're kind of losing touch with reality in a bit.
So what you need is to kind of give yourself
that mental wash right into a positive direction. So, you know,
getting into a regular exercise routine, the endorphins, the the
(13:10):
outlet of what you're doing positively, the changes in your body,
it starts to create that clarity. Right. So you can
think clearly and be like, wow, what the hell have
I gotten myself into? Right. And then and then make
the proper choices to move in a positive direction? Yeah.
S5 (13:24):
Yeah, yeah.
S4 (13:25):
That's great. I've never actually heard cognitive distortions before, Luke,
so I'm definitely going to do some research on that.
But that's exactly what it feels like. Your mind is
a fog. And you know, the thing about narcissistic abuse
is that it breaks your spirit. And so talking about
going to the gym or going for a walk or
(13:48):
going on a hike or whatever it is that clears
your mind and you actually get to realize, oh my gosh,
you know, I need to focus on myself. Because for
so long, these victims were focused on their abuser. And
there's like this Stockholm syndrome. Right. And so now you're
taking that control back and you're saying, I'm just going
(14:10):
to focus on myself. I'm going to get my mind
and body right, and then the emotions will tag along
and come along with on, um, alongside of that.
S6 (14:20):
Yeah, absolutely.
S5 (14:21):
The the nice thing about physical training also is it's cheap. So,
you know, it really doesn't cost much to go to
go take out a gym membership. Some people again start
very simply and just and just walking or jogging. But um,
but to go begin the process of taking care of
yourself is not is not very expensive. It can be
(14:42):
a really a really fantastic first step to helping change
your emotional well-being, which helps you make better decisions, which
in time gives you more clarity so that when those
decisions come and you have to endure these kinds of things,
you have the you have the emotional resources to go
to go do that. And and Perdita, you're right. I mean,
(15:05):
as far as cognitive distortions, you know, your, your, your
mind coming out of a relationship with narcissistic, with, with
a narcissist, where you've been abused is not in a
healthy place. You you don't see reality clearly. And, and
anything you can do to begin to to combat that
and to anchor yourself back into reality again. Taking care
(15:28):
of yourself can be a really good thing. Luke, have
you had have you had situations where you're aware that
you're you're working with a client or, you know, maybe yourself,
even where you've kind of been in a situation where,
you know, depression is it, you find these people and
they are just they're just low. Some people are low
for a variety of reasons. I know we we talk
(15:50):
about emotional eating all the time. And and your emotional
well-being can also affect your physicalness and that mind body connection.
It kind of works the other way too. Have you
seen have you seen some real change in people and
what would you what would you say to that? Have,
have have you seen people kind of come out of
depression and oh.
S6 (16:07):
All the time, all the time. You know, a lot
of people when I first started working with them are
in some sort of depressive spiral. Right. And what that
looks like is it's kind of a negative feedback loop
because you get depressed and that leads to lower energy,
which then leads to emotional eating, which then in turn
kind of fuels why you're making bad choices and potentially
(16:28):
in relationships and then back towards depression. And then there
we go. There's the negative cycle. So really what we
need is to make an intervention. But the key that
I found with clients, it's not all about like, hey,
let's just create a perfect routine and go absolutely hard
off the bat. It's a lot of people. They need
a progressive step system where it's, hey, what's going on
within your life that we can make some small changes
(16:50):
here and just start stepping out of that negative spiral, right.
And then once we progress towards that positive, then we're
starting to lose a bit of body fat, right? Get
a bit more energy back, feel a little bit better.
So what we're doing is we're replacing that negative feedback
loop and making a positive one. And then we amplify
and nurture that over time in the stages of progression
(17:10):
that are appropriate for the individual. And that's really and
it's funny that you said like, oh Luke, you you
may even be a therapist, but it's not so much
of of the therapy side. It's more of the behavior
side and the choices that you make within your fitness
and nutrition that are appropriate for you to get you
into that positive feedback loop. And out of the the
negative one. Right. And what that does is helps clear
(17:32):
the cognitive distortion, helps create that control and confidence that
we're looking for to build that self-esteem. So all these
things really play together and intertwined, and you really just
need to step towards the right direction in a progression
stage that's appropriate for you.
S5 (17:47):
And I guess eating has a lot to do with
that as well. Diet does. Have you found that really
kind of affects your emotional well-being too?
S6 (17:56):
Oh, absolutely. It's part of that that cycle, you know,
a lot of people will snack and binge eat or,
you know, eat sweets because it's emotionally comforting, right? So
people are stressed, right? People are. They have the low self-esteem.
They've been mentally drained from their relationship. And they they
use that as a crutch. Right? So when we create
this positive environment and we're actually getting fulfillment and gratification
(18:19):
in a way of losing weight, feeling better, you know,
building some muscle, it actually replaces the need for that crutch.
And then also you're doing something positive that you don't
want to kind of hinder, and it just replaces the
whole system. Right. And then as a part of that,
more practically, you know, something we work on obviously is
is in taking a bit more protein. What that does,
(18:41):
and this is what literature is supporting as well, is
it mitigates hungers and cravings. So then you're not necessarily
have those cravings physically as much for the emotional and,
you know, snacking and cheating and things of that nature.
So it's really putting those things together and packaging it
and then getting into that system. Yeah.
S5 (18:59):
Yeah. It's crazy how how important your physical well-being. I mean,
diet training, physical like even just movement can can help.
I know Perdita, Perdita, you've had quite an experience with
that too. I mean, how's that? How's that continue to
help you in, in, in your life, even particularly through your,
(19:20):
your experience with your narcissist ex?
S4 (19:23):
Well, you know, it's funny. Um, actually, I just had
a call with a client, um, a divorcing client yesterday,
and she said she said, I don't know how you
do it. I don't know how you are a divorce
attorney and you listen to not only me, but like
hundreds of people and clients and opposing counsels. And I
(19:45):
and I went back to, look, you'd be proud of me.
I went back to I work out, I eat well,
I go on hikes, I do anything to clear my mind.
And she said, do you drink? And I said, no,
I do not use that as a crutch. I said,
because that would be self-medicating myself. And then how good
am I in the morning, right when I have to
(20:06):
go to court at 830? So that's, you know, that's
sort of how I help my clients, too. I tell them, like,
although I don't make it personal, right, because they don't
want to know what's going on with me. But I
tell them, like when they first come in for that
first consultation, I say, I need you to read books.
I need you to understand what narcissism is so that
(20:30):
you know, you're not surprised when your ex does, you know,
files a frivolous motion. And then I also tell them,
go on a hike, work out, do something for yourself.
I want you to focus on yourself because this person
is going to throw all these darts at you during
the divorce. But I need you to focus on yourself.
(20:51):
And if you have a child, focus on your child.
Like go do stuff with your child, go on hikes
with your child. So I definitely bring what I'm preaching.
I definitely bring to my clients as well.
S5 (21:04):
Awesome. Um, Luke, how do you get people started? Because
you again, you have you have some I imagine some
of the people you see are are in their own
desperate place anyways. Either they're looking in the mirror. I mean,
desperation is desperation. Whether you're being abused by a narcissist,
I mean everybody's got their own situation. Yeah.
S6 (21:27):
For for sure. And kind of what you touched on earlier,
when you're in a depressed, low self-esteem state, you don't
have as much confidence and energy to feel like I
don't even know if I can do an exercise routine.
And in those cases, it's like we really need to
find physical activity that's fun for you and relaxing for you, right?
So that could be as simple as going on a
walk outside, biking, playing a sport you like. Something very easy. Like,
(21:49):
I enjoy pickleball now I know that's up and coming
and you can just start there and then create that
positive momentum and and then build into something more if
that's what you want to do. And tying that into,
you know, if you were a victim of a narcissistic
relationship or, you know, moving out of of one, I've
always known for me personally when I'm when I'm going
through a breakup, that's what I'm actually the most intense
(22:09):
in my exercise in the gym, because it is that
positive outlet. Yeah. And not just that it's a vanity
thing in a sense, because it's like, hey, you know,
I'm going to be newly single or I'm building up
my confidence now and making myself look and feel better.
And I think a good antidote to a lot of
these situations is go and meet somebody, go and date,
you know, you may not have that self-esteem or or
(22:30):
energy yet, but you can get there and work towards
that direction. And what you might find is like, hey,
there's actually nice and kind people out there, and then
you can compare and contrast and be like, I've been
with this narcissist this whole time. This is what a
normal person is, right? So you can so you can
work it in that direction to being like, hey, it
gives you that motive to go to the gym to
look better, to start dating. And like I said, it's
(22:51):
all about building that positive momentum in that right direction. Yeah, absolutely. John.
S5 (22:56):
Have you had any any clients particularly that any stories
that you're aware of, of people that you were just
in a really bad way and your training really took
them to a different place?
S6 (23:06):
Oh, absolutely. Like, I've had my client, James, the past
few weeks where he was a bit overweight, feeling down,
you know, he was like, let go from one of
his jobs, like had bad relationships in the past and
through the training, by the end, we got his body
to this amazing place. We did just that. We built
that confidence. We put him in a better place where
(23:27):
now he's like going through all these different job interviews,
like in a better situation and just feeling much better
as a person and a lot of people to that
I that I deal with, you know, as they open
up to me about the personal side, they are coming
from these relationships, they are broken in a sense, and
it's really just piecing them back together through like fitness
and exercise and moving like in the direction they need
(23:47):
to be moved in.
S5 (23:48):
I would, I would imagine that some of those people
have really broken. I mean, it's a broken world. So,
you know, you can't help sometimes, but but be in
that place.
S6 (23:58):
But they're tough, man. Like a lot of these people
are have been through a lot of a struggle. Right.
And that that builds you in a way I know it.
I know at the time you may feel like you've
gone through hell, but some of the hardest times that
you go through actually builds a foundation for you to
have an appreciation and dig deep and to move into
(24:19):
a better place, right? So a lot of these people
are tough as hell because they've stuck around these people
for so long.
S5 (24:24):
Oh, yeah. Absolutely.
S4 (24:26):
That's why we call them survivors, because they're no longer victims.
They go from Of victims to survivors. And I have
to tell you, Luke, I've seen that transition. In some
some of my clients where they do take my advice
and they it's like. Okay, let me handle your divorce part.
You go get the education on what this is. And
(24:48):
you go get, you know, physically trained and feel better.
And I've seen them in court. Like, you know, a
couple months pass by and then I see them and
I'm like, oh my goodness. You know, and they're like, look,
you know, I'll never choose this type of person again
because I'm a different person now. And so that's like
the most rewarding thing.
S6 (25:08):
Yeah, absolutely.
S5 (25:09):
I know that, um, that one of the other advantages
or maybe even two that I can, I can think
of that, that physical training at least provided for me
and maybe you can speak to this is is kind
of the discipline in one area of life carries over
into into others. Have you seen have you and I
know you're like ridiculously Disciplined person because I've seen your
(25:31):
abs and I know, I know that you've got to
be disciplined in order to have those jokers, because I'm
not quite that disciplined, but I'm getting there. So how
have you how have you seen the, the idea of, of,
of building a discipline in your life and seeing that
carry over into other places?
S6 (25:52):
Yeah, absolutely. And that's a that's a good question. I
think discipline, like anything else is, is a muscle per se.
It's not like it's not like I have an extraordinary
amount of willpower than, you know, other people. It's more
of you make a progressive, uh, building of your own discipline.
And that's just through input habits. Right. So that's why
I always start with my clients and kind of assess
(26:13):
where they're at currently in that system, and then do
something appropriate. So it's not like I'm asking the world
of them, but it's also at a place that's met
to their needs. So we can actually build that discipline
over time through the habits that we're doing day by day.
So it's a it's a progressive thing. It's like what
are your daily inputs. And then what can we layer in.
But absolutely as a byproduct you transform your mind in
(26:37):
a way where you're able. And what is discipline in
that day. It's it's choosing that delayed gratification route instead
of the instant one in front of your face. Right?
It's when you're exhausted. You don't want to do it,
but you're like, you know what? I'm going to feel
better when I do it. I'm going to love myself tomorrow.
Let's go do it right. Or it's, you know, having
cookies and pastries in your face, saying no to that,
and then shifting over to more protein and fruits and
(26:57):
veggies like that. Stuff's not always easy. But by those choices,
in small stages, you build that muscle in your mind
and you build that confidence to make it. Um, and
that being said, it doesn't mean you have to be perfect, right?
I still, I don't make all the perfect right choices
all the time, but it's, it's more of having routine and, uh,
kind of like skill set that you fall back into
on a routine. So you, you're more net making right
(27:20):
choices than, than not. Right. So it's not being. Yeah.
I think that's the other mistake. People think they have
to be perfect. But that's not realistic. You know So. So. Yeah, man,
I totally experienced that. Yeah.
S5 (27:31):
I think these disciplines can actually change how you feel
about things in life and not just, you know, the
thought for me, you know, the correlation. I'm thinking in food.
I hate broccoli or hated broccoli and vegetables and things
like that. Like I couldn't stand eating that stuff. And
if you discipline yourself, eventually what happens is you start
(27:56):
to kind of crave the good stuff. And, and, and
the other stuff, like you put sweet tea in front
of me and, and it's a spit take. I can't
stand this stuff, you know that. You ask for unsweet
and they deliver you sweet tea and it's, you know,
it's it's so sickeningly sweet you realize kind of where
you were and the things you, you had tolerated and,
(28:18):
and gotten used to. And and the same is true
in narcissistic abuse as you as you get this clarity,
you're like, oh my, oh my God, I tolerated. I
tolerated this. And and and the thought of going back
to that becomes absolutely ridiculous. Like, there's just no way
I could. I could even fathom that. And then you
(28:40):
start craving the good stuff and the stuff that makes
you healthy. And you build this kind of momentum in
your life that that I think has positive benefits, not
just in your physical well-being, but also in your emotional health.
S6 (28:54):
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And part of what that is, is
like the delayed gratification arrives, right? So it's like, okay,
some of this work that I've done, I'm actually getting
results from that. I'm actually getting a reward from that.
And that's really my goal too, is like, let's try
to get get you there as soon and as fast
as we can, you know, because then it's that starts
to replace some of those negative choices that you're making.
(29:16):
And that's why you start to crave the good stuff
because you're like, hey, I'm actually getting this reward I've
never felt before. I'm actually feeling a lot better. You
know what I mean? And it's like, I like this,
you know. Let's do more of that.
S5 (29:27):
Yeah.
S4 (29:28):
Um, John knows this about me, so I disclose this
to him as my friend. So I'm going through perimenopause
right now. And so one of the things the doctor
said to me, and I have a great doctor in
Newport Beach, he said, you need to start exercising. And
I said, well, I already exercise. And he was like,
I need you to do double of that because that's really,
(29:50):
really vitally important to I hope your response.
S5 (29:54):
Was getting old sucks. Yeah. I tell Luke that all
the time. Getting old sucks.
S7 (30:01):
Yeah.
S4 (30:02):
You know what? It's I'm going to turn 50 this year,
and I feel like that's a blessing because many people
don't make it to 50. Right. And so I'm in
the best shape of my life. I have a great husband.
I have a great career. I've got great friends like
John here. But, um, so it's so important. And that
was like literally the first thing he said was exercise
(30:24):
And then let me give you the vitamins and the
supplements you need. But I said I already exercised. He's like,
I need you to do more of it during this
period of time in your life. So it's it really
exercising and getting your mind and body right goes all
stages of your life. Right? And so, um, you know,
(30:46):
just take one step before the other. And that's what
I was saying earlier. I just literally my mom signed
me up. I literally would lie there on a mat
at the gym, like, I didn't do any other exercise
but lie there for like maybe 30 minutes and go home.
And that's all I could do.
S5 (31:05):
Isn't that crazy that that could be your first step?
You know, like like literally just walking into the gym
and laying on the mat, maybe stretching a little bit,
like like it seemed people go, what good does that do?
It does you good. You know, it's it it's step
one to keeping yourself moving. And you you build on that.
(31:27):
And that's kind of what makes you healthy in the
days forward.
S7 (31:31):
100% sure.
S6 (31:32):
Yeah. It's like building in that routine, right? And I
think that's that's the first step is people have to
think logistically. Okay, well which gym am I going to
go to? Am I going to do it at home.
What exercise am I going to do? What equipment. So
it's all these initial things that you have to make
decisions on and get forward and, and really to start
just just go out for a walk, you know, if
that's where you're at, start very simple and just start
(31:54):
to make it a routine. And then there's nothing stopping
you from building on top of that slowly but surely.
So it's you don't have to build Rome in a day.
It could be as simple as going to the gym,
laying on a mat that worked for you. Mhm.
S7 (32:09):
Yes, yes.
S4 (32:11):
Um, so I know John, um, you know, John and
I have a lot of things in common and that's
why we're really good friends. But one of the things
and we didn't really Realize this until we had started
talking to Luke, is that we do have this in
common where our healing started at the gym. And so
(32:33):
I think for our audience, we want to we're really
emphasizing this because this worked for us, and we know
that if it works for us, it will also work
for you. Isn't that true, John?
S5 (32:45):
It is. And for me, what's craziest about this? You know,
so I again I was I was in such a
low place. I really kind of didn't know what to
do with myself. And, um, like I said, suicidal, kind
of understated it and had been in this space for
such a really long time with brain fog and confusion
(33:06):
and emotionally upside down. And, you know, by the end
of the, the abusive cycle and some people it's for
some people it's months they get they get here in
months for for some people it's years, and for other
people it's decades. And for me, it was it was decades.
It was 25 years of this before I really kind
(33:27):
of I kind of understood, um, and, and this wound
up being my first step, but I didn't realize it
was my first step, that that's that's the thing. I mean,
I got to this in different, different way. Again, back
to the, you know, the the picture in the parade, I,
I was, I was there from that. But but it
(33:48):
wound up being something different for me that helped me
pull out and I didn't I didn't realize what I
was doing up front.
S6 (33:56):
John. And sorry to interrupt. I just something came to mind.
So so what do you guys and you can weigh
in on this, what do you feel is the main
thing that keeps people in a narcissistic relationship?
S4 (34:08):
Oh my goodness. It's so many things. I mean it's
it's different for different people. Obviously a lot of times
it's the children. Um, they cannot imagine they know that
they're suffering abuse some of the times, but they can't
imagine leaving their children to suffer the abuse without them
being in the home. So I know that's I know John,
(34:31):
and that's John's story, right? He would have gotten out
a lot sooner had he not had children. And so that's,
you know, obviously one thing. Um, their trauma bonded. So
they don't they don't even know that they're in this
type of relationship. They're constantly covering up with the abuse. Um, sometimes, Luke,
(34:52):
the first time someone has heard about narcissism is when
they come to see me as a divorce attorney, and
I and I start to say, well, let's go over
some of the traits and they go, oh my gosh,
you know? And I'm like, now you're going to go
down a rabbit hole, okay? And you're going to come
out stronger because now you're educated and you understand what
(35:14):
this is. So I think, you know, that's at least
two of the reasons people stay in these types of
abusive relationships. John, what do you think?
S5 (35:24):
You know, I think I think the children, my kids
were certainly a part of that. Um, you know, being
being a person of faith also, I like I just
don't believe in divorce. I tell people all the time,
you know, it took me. It took me 25 years
to even consider the thought. And as a husband and
(35:44):
a felt leader of the family and the one who
provides and, um, and and on top of that, being
long suffering and loyal and all those things, it winds
up being a situation where your best characteristics are used
against you, and they kind of keep you in something
that is, you know, situation where you're you're being beat
(36:06):
over the head and, and that undoubtedly, you know, for
me was was where I was. And on top of
the trauma bond, I, you know, there was my trauma
bond ended while I was in the marriage. In one
bad comment from her and I was like, okay, I'm done.
You know, I can't go any further. There's no I
(36:28):
can't be attached to this anymore. And I began the
process of separation emotionally the last couple of years. Um,
but it definitely keeps you it definitely keeps you in
something that's that's just unhealthy.
S7 (36:43):
Mhm.
S6 (36:43):
For sure. So, so there's, uh, there's so it seems
almost like okay a lack of awareness. Um, is, is
a big part of that. Right. And also you don't
even realize that your good qualities are being used against
you in a sense, and you feel like this is
just your duty to do this for your family. And
that's that's more what I'm hearing from you, John. Right.
S5 (37:05):
Yeah. And and some of it may be this is
a terrible word to use for this situation. Maybe, but
it's accurate is maybe it's just habit. You know, you're
so used to something. Um, I used to tell my therapist,
I go, you know what? I don't want to be
a divorced and single. And I also don't want to
be married like I like. I was stuck in this
(37:27):
place where I didn't feel like I could transition, I didn't.
I knew I couldn't live in what I was living,
but I also didn't want what was ahead. I felt like,
you know, here's some swampland. Go enjoy it. I'm 53
years old. Go start your life over again, by the way,
with no money and and and find a place to
live and figure a way to to get a car
(37:49):
and and and as you go through this process of
divorcing or leaving the relationship, you're going, what am I
going to be left with? I don't even know. On
the other side, um, and you, it winds up being
this tremendous just just chaos in your head. And for me,
the the engagement in the physical. You know what it was, Luke?
(38:14):
It was one good thing. So there's a there's a
television show you've probably never seen because you're young, but
it was called The Flintstones. Maybe you know who they are. Surely.
But you didn't watch them in the first run. But
there was this character in The Flintstones named Schleprock, and
he was this little guy who stood about this tall,
(38:36):
and he had his own little storm cloud that followed
him wherever he went. And it was just as big
as him. And you'd see lightning and rain, and it
was constantly raining on him. And that's what it feels
like to be in, in narcissistic abuse, like your whole world, this,
this storm cloud of chaos and of pain and of
hurt and of abuse and insanity is following you around.
(39:03):
And when I got to the gym, it was one
ray of sunshine that shined through that thing. It was
the one good thing that was happening to me. That
helped me change my life. And it felt like, you know,
as the sun kind of peered through this cloud, it
began to stretch out a little bit. And and perhaps
(39:26):
I gained some, some momentum in life that that started
in the gym and ultimately wound up kind of transcending my,
my whole life in time. Um, have you seen Luke
that this. And in fact, you and I have talked
about this before. I don't just go to the gym.
(39:46):
You don't just go to the gym. This is my life.
This is like it's altered my lifestyle. This the gym
is not just an add on to what I do.
It has kind of become who I am. How have you.
Have you felt that same way? And how has that
kind of helped you to to to keep momentum in
your own life?
S6 (40:07):
Yeah, I think that's a good question, John. And this
is something where behaviorally you want to bridge people too?
Because at the end of the day, if if you're
not working out per se regularly, that what that means
to me. To me, in some level, you don't enjoy
working out right? So it's not a question of like,
should I be working out or not? It's like, how
do I actually get myself to enjoy exercise, right? So
(40:29):
so it's like if we can tackle that as a,
as a, as a progressive step system and then it happens. Right.
Because we link you into that delayed gratification. And that's
where you're at now John. That's that's more of why
we do it. Because we like to we enjoy it.
It's as part of our lives where it's like, it's
not this like staple discipline, I'm sure. I mean, there's
some days or exercises that may feel like that, but
(40:50):
overall we like to go do it. Like clears our head,
gets us in a good place. It works towards our health.
So we're linked in to that delayed gratification result. And
we stay in that positive loop and we enjoy that process.
So really bringing people into that is really the goal
at the end of the day. And that's what makes
something sustainable is because, hey, I like to do it right.
(41:12):
I like to feel good. I like to be healthy.
I like to fit my clothes. I like to feel
confident when dating. I like to feel good about myself.
So when people start to experience those things, then the
behavior that got them there becomes enjoyable, right?
S5 (41:26):
And it's interesting in this, in this world, life is
prone to disorder. It's it's prone to to come apart
as instead of come together, you go and you plant
flowers in your garden. And if you don't weed the
thing in three weeks, you've got impatience and weeds. Everything
worth having in life requires some maintenance and attention. And
(41:51):
and ultimately people make decisions in doing absolutely. Doing nothing
is actually a decision in and of itself. And and
that's where doing nothing keeps you prone to disorder, doing
nothing and not just physically but also emotionally as well.
If you do it, doing nothing. Will will put you
(42:11):
in a place where where in time you're you're you're
thinking becomes more difficult and more crazy, and you become
more confused in the days ahead rather than rather than less.
Unless you begin to adopt some of these things in
your life to go alter the the natural force of
of the world, which you know, in the in physical
(42:34):
terms is having having body fat and not being lean and,
and you know, obesity and and and ultimately sickness and
things like that as well. We haven't even talked about that.
I mean, the, the benefits of, of training and sickness
in the days ahead. Um, and, and, you know, with
the mind body connection, there are people, I think, who
(42:54):
who have post-traumatic stress disorder from, from narcissistic abuse. And
we hear oftentimes as well who who have sicknesses and
ailments from, from these kinds of things. But did you
have have you experienced that with any of your clients.
Have you, um, have you had people who were kind
of sick and as they got out of this and
(43:16):
began to to train and take care of themselves, became
different in that capacity as well?
S4 (43:22):
I mean, yeah, over the last, you know, 22 years
of practicing, I can't even believe I'm saying that, um,
you're not that old, you know, definitely. I'm definitely seeing
that you've been.
S5 (43:34):
Practicing since Luke was eight.
S7 (43:37):
I know.
S4 (43:38):
Let's not rub it in, okay? But, um, you know,
the last 5 or 6 years I've really focused on
narcissism because that's when kind of the light bulb went on. Um,
just learning it through social media and things of that nature.
So definitely I have seen great changes and listen, my
(44:00):
clients and I, like I have the best clients. Okay,
I don't know, I don't know many divorce attorneys that
say that. But at our firm we get to pick
and choose who we want as clients. And so we
usually will. We have usually the, you know, the high
conflict victim, um, client that we're trying to help. And
(44:20):
it's amazing to see that transformation becoming the survivor. And, um,
you know, I just I love this conversation and I
love that we brought this topic to our listeners. Um, Luke,
if people want to, um, get to contact with you,
(44:41):
what would be the best way to do that? Because
I know that there's, um, our listeners are going to
reach out to you and get on your program, your system.
What is the best way to do that? Because this
has just been such a great conversation with you.
S6 (44:56):
Yeah, absolutely. I appreciate you. You asking? The best way
would it be through my Instagram, which is just my
name with the underscore. So Luke Holbrook underscore. It'll it'll
pop right up. and I'd be more than happy to
to just talk with with anybody about this topic and
if there's any alignment with what I do and if
it would be helpful for them, more than happy to
do that.
S5 (45:16):
And, and, you know, having been a client, um, with
Luke as well. And again, I've been training for years,
but I felt like I needed to up my game.
So I went to Luke about a year ago. Um,
there are people out there trying to rape you, blind
financially in physical fitness, on social media channels. And one
(45:37):
of the things I appreciate appreciated about Luke was that
his he was reasonably priced. He's he's engaged. You do
get some some personal time with with he and or
his brother in a very small group setting. So you
get you get some attention that way as well. He
lays out if you don't know anything about physical training, um,
Luke has what he calls precision metrics to help work
(45:59):
you through, take you from point A to point B,
so you don't have to know anything about physical fitness.
All you have to do is have a desire to
want to change. And he can, and he can help
move you to that space and take you through that, um,
as part of his process. And he'll, he'll do the
assessment with you. But I couldn't I couldn't speak more
(46:19):
highly of the guy. And I'm grateful that I've spent
the last year training with him as well. And I
plan on continuing.
S6 (46:27):
So you've been awesome. Awesome, soldier man. And I remember
a little tough.
S5 (46:32):
Year, man.
S6 (46:33):
Yeah. And you can imagine a lot of clients, you know,
I work with, they go on trips on vacations, and
we work through these things and balance and making the
right decisions, building awareness. It's a huge part when it
comes to fitness. You know, what should I eat? What
should I not? Should I cheat, should I not? Things
of that nature. And, um, John was on this cruise
and one of the first days, for whatever reason, we
still don't really know how stepped out of the hot
(46:55):
tub on the on the cruise ship, slipped in and
broke his ankle and fractured the whole thing.
S5 (47:00):
You had to tell it. Yeah.
S6 (47:03):
And we're like, you know what? It's not going to
stop us. So anything we could do workout wise, upper body, anything.
Even with the leg, we still just plowed through it.
And you know what? Um, part of the recovery in
that actually aids recovery to keep stay active and keep moving.
And I think you, you, you know, healed in record time.
So yeah, it was awesome to see, man. You know
proud of you man.
S5 (47:21):
Thank you I really appreciate that. And you know what's
interesting about that is, is that most people my age
could not I live by myself. Most people my age
could not have cared for themselves at my age. I
have a I have a house with steps upstairs and downstairs,
and I'm hopping up and down stairs and, you know,
crawling my laundry basket up the stairs. Uh, most people
(47:44):
would have required.
S6 (47:45):
Hey, dude. That's good. That's good cardio, man.
S7 (47:46):
Let's use it, man.
S6 (47:47):
It was our bodies getting built.
S5 (47:49):
It really was. But but again, I was able to
go do something that was very difficult because of the
training I had done. And that translates emotionally as well.
You're looking at your life right now if you're in
narcissistic abuse and going, how the hell am I going
to go do this? And you just go, you know what,
I don't know, but the training can help you. It
(48:10):
can help move you from a place of of being
confused to having clarity. And the other thing I wanted
to say before we get off is this it will
give you momentum in life. People ask me all the time, well,
how do you how do you have the motivation? Go
to the gym? I don't I don't have to have
motivation anymore because I've got this momentum behind me of
(48:32):
years of training that carries me to this, and it's
become a part of who I am. And as you
begin to engage in these kinds of things, you are
actually changing your lifestyle as you begin to take care
of yourself physically. And Luke is all about that. And again,
reach out to him. Luke Holbrook underscore on Instagram. If
(48:52):
you want to go have a consultation and he'll sit
with you. So all right, thanks so much for being here, Perdida.
Thanks for times.
S2 (49:03):
Thank you for listening to the Narcissist Abuse Recovery Channel.
Be sure to follow and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
To hear other episodes or read the associated blogs, visit
Olas Media.com and be sure to follow us on Instagram
with the Handle Narco podcast. The guest views, thoughts and
(49:23):
opinions expressed are their own. The information presented is for
general information purposes only and is not intended to be
legal advice. The co-hosts are not licensed therapists. Seek professional
help as information is often state specific. The Narcissist Abuse
Recovery Channel is produced in studios in San Diego, California
(49:46):
and Tijuana, Baja California. Eolas media is an IVC media company.
S1 (50:00):
Lost media.
Oh, lost media.
S2 (00:04):
In a world of hurt and pain, we find our
way to break the chain. A caring heart, a guiding light.
Leading us through the darkest night. With preservation in our soul.
We'll rescue those who've lost control. Escape the grip of
a narcissist on our journey to recovery. Bliss.
S3 (00:28):
Welcome to the narcissist Abuse recovery channel with John and Perdita.
S4 (00:34):
Hey, John, how are you?
S5 (00:36):
Perdita, it's good to see you. How have you been?
S4 (00:39):
I've been doing well. You know, last week I had
my great nephew's birthday. He just turned two years old.
I cannot believe that I am a great aunt. Like,
when did that all happen?
S5 (00:50):
So I had a great aunt. And she said to me,
she goes, you can't call me great aunt unless great
is an adjective. So it's the only way she'd allow
me to go do it. Great. Great is an adjective.
And that was that was it. And and two years old.
Is that the terrible twos or. Or are they the
really terrific twos?
S4 (01:09):
It actually he's terrific. There is nothing there's nothing that
this child could do that would make us say that
he was terrible. He's like in the.
S5 (01:19):
Electrical sockets or anything like that.
S6 (01:21):
Yeah. I don't know if I believe that.
S5 (01:24):
Yeah.
S4 (01:26):
We have a great show today for, um, everyone that
was our guest, actually, Luke. And, um, we're going to
be talking about sort of the mind body connection with, uh,
you know, narcissism and how you can recover from narcissism,
what you need to do. And so we're really excited to, um,
(01:49):
bring on our guest today.
S5 (01:51):
Fantastic. And, you know, this is a narcissist abuse recovery
channel where we we really do want to try to
help you heal from narcissistic abuse. Our guest today is
Luke Holbrook and I. Actually, this is one of the
most unusual situations where I have two people that I
kind of met online through my my recovery channel, amazing people.
(02:12):
Perdita and I have been friends now for years. And
and Luke, I met about a year ago and um,
and Luke, it's interesting. Um, you know, you'd think, why?
Why do I have a personal trainer online on a,
on a narcissist abuse recovery channel and, and Perdita and I,
as we were talking about it, we just discovered this
about each other that, um, both of us really started
(02:33):
our healing from narcissistic abuse. Our first real step was
getting to the gym. So. So we thought, you know what?
We're going to we're going to bring somebody, somebody in
who who understands this, who understands the the connection between
physical and emotional health. And, um, thanks so much for
being here, man.
S6 (02:52):
Yeah. For sure. I mean, thanks for for having me.
There's obviously, you know, that mind body connection that always
plays a role. And then part of it too is
it is choices you make at certain points in time.
So I, you know, I have plenty of times talked
with different clients. It's not just like, okay, what exercises
to do, but it's also, you know, what are the
(03:14):
best choices to make in certain situations. And this relates
a lot to a lot of these situations that you
talk about here on the channel.
S5 (03:20):
And I imagine that when you are, when you're trying
to work people through training, you wind up being a
bit of a therapist the entire way. I mean, you
get to know people. You can't help but get to
know people, and you can't help but get to know
their strengths and weaknesses and and these emotional things. I know,
even for me, um, as as I full disclosure, I
(03:41):
trained with Luke. Luke's amazing. And his brother Seth as well,
who just had little kid. Hey, Seth, good to see you. So, um, but, uh, but, uh,
you can't help but understand something about a person and
what their emotional strengths and weaknesses are. And, um, you know,
narcissists who, uh, who are narcissists, who are victimizing other people.
(04:03):
These victims are in a ridiculously low place oftentimes when
when they realize what they need to go do. And
ultimately that's oftentimes leaving somebody. And, um, and I think
for both of us, we we realized it was like, man,
this is this is something we really need to go address. And, um,
and particularly with the mind being such a, I mean,
(04:28):
it's the mind of a victim oftentimes is just, is
just mentally and emotionally done. They've been gaslighted, they've been
lied to. They've been cheated on. They've been financially abused.
They are as some of them are suicidal, some are worse. Um,
and and it makes for a very difficult situation. So
how can how can this understanding, this understanding the physical
getting getting involved in physical really kind of help your mind.
(04:51):
You described that as mind body. So let's talk about
that a little bit.
S6 (04:55):
Yeah. For sure. I mean, it really comes down to
a level of control of what you can do in
these situations to to make yourself feel better in a
positive direction, a positive outlet. Right. And it's also you're
making a choice that has a delayed result. So it's
it's not an necessarily instant gratification, especially when you're just
starting out. Um, but when you make these choices and
(05:17):
you move in that positive direction, you quickly realize how
it can be a positive outlet. Right. And what that
does is kind of relieve a lot of the emotion
that you may be feeling in the relationship that you're
in or have been as a consequence of that relationship,
and gets you into a better driving seat of kind
of moving forward on the path to recovery. Mhm.
S4 (05:38):
Yeah. It actually gives you it sounds like it gives
you control and victims of narcissistic abuse. One thing they
don't have is control right. Somebody else has been dictating
what they're going through. And and gaslighting them, as John said.
And so this actually gives the victim what we like
(06:00):
to call them, the survivor control over their mind, body
and and emotions. So you're absolutely right.
S6 (06:08):
Yeah. And part of it too is and you guys
can relate, is you're in a very vulnerable state. And
your self-esteem, it may not be in a great place. Right.
So it might even be difficult to get to the gym. Right.
So you kind of look at these in progressive stages
where it's just start with getting active, go outside for
a walk, you know, do something at home that you
(06:29):
may enjoy to do, you know, just move around the
house and then you can work your way into doing
slow routines into the gym, and just get yourself feeling
better into a routine and kind of building some momentum
in that positive direction. And then a bit of that
control starts to return to you, and you start to
think and just feel more clearly about your situation.
S4 (06:47):
I have a story, but I know John does too. Um,
after I left my ex-husband. My mom signed me up
to LA Fitness in Studio City, and I was like, mom,
I'm not going to the gym. I don't know why
you signed me up for the gym. She's like, I
don't care if you have to go there and lie
on the mats. Just, I need you to get out
(07:09):
of the house, okay? Because I had moved back into
the house with my mom. And so that's exactly what
I did, Luke. Like, I literally would wear my gym clothes,
go to the gym, lie on the mats, and just
little by little, I started to say, well, maybe I
could do the treadmill. Maybe I could do the StairMaster
and it, you know. Then I started to go, going
(07:30):
into the sauna and the steam room and all of
that really did help. And so it's funny because I
know John actually is a member of LA fitness now,
so and I know he's got a great story to
share as well. So you're absolutely right. And that's why
you're such an important guest today. Yeah.
S5 (07:49):
My trainer insists that I have a gym membership, So. Yeah,
he's he's a slave driver. Not really. He's he's fantastic
at it. You know, it's, um, it's it's interesting you
talk about control and and, you know, just going back to,
you know, the place where I was, I, there was
this two year period where I first discovered that I
(08:11):
was married to somebody who had narcissistic personality disorder. And
I was, as I can remember, going to a therapist,
and I was as low as I could possibly be.
I don't know that I've ever been so depressed before
in my life. Um, suicidal probably understates it. Um, and
it was. I just decided I'd seen a picture of myself.
(08:33):
I was at a car show with somebody, and and
somebody took a picture of me, and I looked at myself,
and I went like. Like that was as far as I.
I saw that picture, and I'm like, that's as far
as I'm willing to go. Physically. I'm not, I'm not.
Nobody would have called me heavy. Nobody would have called
me fat. I've always been relatively lean. People still said
(08:55):
I was lean, but I didn't like my body and
I didn't like where I was. And so that was
the first motion for me to get back to the gym.
I decided I was going to be in the best
shape of my life. Dropped about £30, found my abs.
My six pack had been in the cooler for years,
pulled that stuff out and and and it started to
(09:15):
be a win for me in about six months time.
That gave me like ridiculous benefit. Um, it was it's
far more than just physical because my mind was was
so mucky, like I couldn't tell up from down left,
from right back, from forward. And and as I began
(09:38):
to train, it was almost like those disciplines that I
was acting out physically carried over into my mind. And
it started to clean up my mind and, and during
that two year process, I would tell you that it
helped me actually prepare for divorce, because there was a
two year window where I was trying to desperately to
make the right decisions. Initially, I had no clarity whatsoever.
(10:01):
Didn't even realize what I was doing when I got
to the gym like you. It was like, you know,
I just I'm like, okay, I'm going for a different reason.
But it wound up being the thing. I think that
helped keep me together. Do you see? Do you see
that kind of stuff a lot, Luke?
S6 (10:16):
Yeah, absolutely. And it's not just, you know, the physical transformation,
which feels great. And we're talking about a level of
control not to necessarily be a control freak, but what
we want to do is build back confidence. Right. To
feel better, to be and improved kind of person. To
make the right choices for yourself, but also create an independence, right?
You can make yourself happy, right? You're not going to be.
(10:38):
You don't need to be codependent on a person, especially
someone that may be narcissistic and have been abusing you
for years. So what this does is start to integrate
something into your life that even if we just start small,
that you start to build a bit of confidence that, hey,
I can make myself feel better and give myself an outlet, right?
S5 (10:55):
Absolutely, absolutely. In fact, I mean, the word we'd probably
use in our culture right now is self-care. Um, and,
and and generally speaking, the the victims of narcissistic abuse
are very empathetic kind of people. They are very sacrificial
kind of people. Um, they've they oftentimes they're they're in
their families for their children. Not not for if absent
(11:18):
the children, they'd have been gone years ago. And, and
they're living this very sacrificial life and they're, they're not
taking care of themselves. Well. And I certainly put myself
in that category. And it became very difficult, um, to, to,
to take care of myself. When I got to the,
to the gym, it was like this first step to
(11:41):
self-care that I, that I, that I could find and
that I could have and and made it ridiculously good
for me. I think as I built momentum, it it
helped me stay together in time and to to really
dial me in on, on some clarity that I would
not otherwise have had.
S6 (12:00):
Yeah. And you and you mentioned clarity and that's a,
you know, kind of a good topic where there's certain
mental experiences that you'll go through when you're emotional. Right?
It might be in a negative or positive way, but there's,
there's something called like cognitive distortion, which there's 13 total.
And this is something that I learned learned from from
my therapist. Right, in a way. And these are things
(12:22):
that include each.
S5 (12:23):
Of the original 13 colonies.
S6 (12:25):
Yeah, exactly. And just to name a few. You know,
there's like all or nothing thinking. There's like overgeneralizing, you know,
a negative mental filter or discounting positives. And everybody does
this to an extent, but it's sort of the, the
level that you do this on each one of those things. And,
you know, the reason why we're bringing this up is
because to get a certain clarity when you're in an
(12:47):
abusive relationship or in an emotional state, you're not thinking clearly, right?
And that may be about yourself, about the relationship. You can't.
And John, you said you couldn't tell between left right, front, backwards.
You're kind of losing touch with reality in a bit.
So what you need is to kind of give yourself
that mental wash right into a positive direction. So, you know,
getting into a regular exercise routine, the endorphins, the the
(13:10):
outlet of what you're doing positively, the changes in your body,
it starts to create that clarity. Right. So you can
think clearly and be like, wow, what the hell have
I gotten myself into? Right. And then and then make
the proper choices to move in a positive direction? Yeah.
S5 (13:24):
Yeah, yeah.
S4 (13:25):
That's great. I've never actually heard cognitive distortions before, Luke,
so I'm definitely going to do some research on that.
But that's exactly what it feels like. Your mind is
a fog. And you know, the thing about narcissistic abuse
is that it breaks your spirit. And so talking about
going to the gym or going for a walk or
(13:48):
going on a hike or whatever it is that clears
your mind and you actually get to realize, oh my gosh,
you know, I need to focus on myself. Because for
so long, these victims were focused on their abuser. And
there's like this Stockholm syndrome. Right. And so now you're
taking that control back and you're saying, I'm just going
(14:10):
to focus on myself. I'm going to get my mind
and body right, and then the emotions will tag along
and come along with on, um, alongside of that.
S6 (14:20):
Yeah, absolutely.
S5 (14:21):
The the nice thing about physical training also is it's cheap. So,
you know, it really doesn't cost much to go to
go take out a gym membership. Some people again start
very simply and just and just walking or jogging. But um,
but to go begin the process of taking care of
yourself is not is not very expensive. It can be
(14:42):
a really a really fantastic first step to helping change
your emotional well-being, which helps you make better decisions, which
in time gives you more clarity so that when those
decisions come and you have to endure these kinds of things,
you have the you have the emotional resources to go
to go do that. And and Perdita, you're right. I mean,
(15:05):
as far as cognitive distortions, you know, your, your, your
mind coming out of a relationship with narcissistic, with, with
a narcissist, where you've been abused is not in a
healthy place. You you don't see reality clearly. And, and
anything you can do to begin to to combat that
and to anchor yourself back into reality again. Taking care
(15:28):
of yourself can be a really good thing. Luke, have
you had have you had situations where you're aware that
you're you're working with a client or, you know, maybe yourself,
even where you've kind of been in a situation where,
you know, depression is it, you find these people and
they are just they're just low. Some people are low
for a variety of reasons. I know we we talk
(15:50):
about emotional eating all the time. And and your emotional
well-being can also affect your physicalness and that mind body connection.
It kind of works the other way too. Have you
seen have you seen some real change in people and
what would you what would you say to that? Have,
have have you seen people kind of come out of
depression and oh.
S6 (16:07):
All the time, all the time. You know, a lot
of people when I first started working with them are
in some sort of depressive spiral. Right. And what that
looks like is it's kind of a negative feedback loop
because you get depressed and that leads to lower energy,
which then leads to emotional eating, which then in turn
kind of fuels why you're making bad choices and potentially
(16:28):
in relationships and then back towards depression. And then there
we go. There's the negative cycle. So really what we
need is to make an intervention. But the key that
I found with clients, it's not all about like, hey,
let's just create a perfect routine and go absolutely hard
off the bat. It's a lot of people. They need
a progressive step system where it's, hey, what's going on
within your life that we can make some small changes
(16:50):
here and just start stepping out of that negative spiral, right.
And then once we progress towards that positive, then we're
starting to lose a bit of body fat, right? Get
a bit more energy back, feel a little bit better.
So what we're doing is we're replacing that negative feedback
loop and making a positive one. And then we amplify
and nurture that over time in the stages of progression
(17:10):
that are appropriate for the individual. And that's really and
it's funny that you said like, oh Luke, you you
may even be a therapist, but it's not so much
of of the therapy side. It's more of the behavior
side and the choices that you make within your fitness
and nutrition that are appropriate for you to get you
into that positive feedback loop. And out of the the
negative one. Right. And what that does is helps clear
(17:32):
the cognitive distortion, helps create that control and confidence that
we're looking for to build that self-esteem. So all these
things really play together and intertwined, and you really just
need to step towards the right direction in a progression
stage that's appropriate for you.
S5 (17:47):
And I guess eating has a lot to do with
that as well. Diet does. Have you found that really
kind of affects your emotional well-being too?
S6 (17:56):
Oh, absolutely. It's part of that that cycle, you know,
a lot of people will snack and binge eat or,
you know, eat sweets because it's emotionally comforting, right? So
people are stressed, right? People are. They have the low self-esteem.
They've been mentally drained from their relationship. And they they
use that as a crutch. Right? So when we create
this positive environment and we're actually getting fulfillment and gratification
(18:19):
in a way of losing weight, feeling better, you know,
building some muscle, it actually replaces the need for that crutch.
And then also you're doing something positive that you don't
want to kind of hinder, and it just replaces the
whole system. Right. And then as a part of that,
more practically, you know, something we work on obviously is
is in taking a bit more protein. What that does,
(18:41):
and this is what literature is supporting as well, is
it mitigates hungers and cravings. So then you're not necessarily
have those cravings physically as much for the emotional and,
you know, snacking and cheating and things of that nature.
So it's really putting those things together and packaging it
and then getting into that system. Yeah.
S5 (18:59):
Yeah. It's crazy how how important your physical well-being. I mean,
diet training, physical like even just movement can can help.
I know Perdita, Perdita, you've had quite an experience with
that too. I mean, how's that? How's that continue to
help you in, in, in your life, even particularly through your,
(19:20):
your experience with your narcissist ex?
S4 (19:23):
Well, you know, it's funny. Um, actually, I just had
a call with a client, um, a divorcing client yesterday,
and she said she said, I don't know how you
do it. I don't know how you are a divorce
attorney and you listen to not only me, but like
hundreds of people and clients and opposing counsels. And I
(19:45):
and I went back to, look, you'd be proud of me.
I went back to I work out, I eat well,
I go on hikes, I do anything to clear my mind.
And she said, do you drink? And I said, no,
I do not use that as a crutch. I said,
because that would be self-medicating myself. And then how good
am I in the morning, right when I have to
(20:06):
go to court at 830? So that's, you know, that's
sort of how I help my clients, too. I tell them, like,
although I don't make it personal, right, because they don't
want to know what's going on with me. But I
tell them, like when they first come in for that
first consultation, I say, I need you to read books.
I need you to understand what narcissism is so that
(20:30):
you know, you're not surprised when your ex does, you know,
files a frivolous motion. And then I also tell them,
go on a hike, work out, do something for yourself.
I want you to focus on yourself because this person
is going to throw all these darts at you during
the divorce. But I need you to focus on yourself.
(20:51):
And if you have a child, focus on your child.
Like go do stuff with your child, go on hikes
with your child. So I definitely bring what I'm preaching.
I definitely bring to my clients as well.
S5 (21:04):
Awesome. Um, Luke, how do you get people started? Because
you again, you have you have some I imagine some
of the people you see are are in their own
desperate place anyways. Either they're looking in the mirror. I mean,
desperation is desperation. Whether you're being abused by a narcissist,
I mean everybody's got their own situation. Yeah.
S6 (21:27):
For for sure. And kind of what you touched on earlier,
when you're in a depressed, low self-esteem state, you don't
have as much confidence and energy to feel like I
don't even know if I can do an exercise routine.
And in those cases, it's like we really need to
find physical activity that's fun for you and relaxing for you, right?
So that could be as simple as going on a
walk outside, biking, playing a sport you like. Something very easy. Like,
(21:49):
I enjoy pickleball now I know that's up and coming
and you can just start there and then create that
positive momentum and and then build into something more if
that's what you want to do. And tying that into,
you know, if you were a victim of a narcissistic
relationship or, you know, moving out of of one, I've
always known for me personally when I'm when I'm going
through a breakup, that's what I'm actually the most intense
(22:09):
in my exercise in the gym, because it is that
positive outlet. Yeah. And not just that it's a vanity
thing in a sense, because it's like, hey, you know,
I'm going to be newly single or I'm building up
my confidence now and making myself look and feel better.
And I think a good antidote to a lot of
these situations is go and meet somebody, go and date,
you know, you may not have that self-esteem or or
(22:30):
energy yet, but you can get there and work towards
that direction. And what you might find is like, hey,
there's actually nice and kind people out there, and then
you can compare and contrast and be like, I've been
with this narcissist this whole time. This is what a
normal person is, right? So you can so you can
work it in that direction to being like, hey, it
gives you that motive to go to the gym to
look better, to start dating. And like I said, it's
(22:51):
all about building that positive momentum in that right direction. Yeah, absolutely. John.
S5 (22:56):
Have you had any any clients particularly that any stories
that you're aware of, of people that you were just
in a really bad way and your training really took
them to a different place?
S6 (23:06):
Oh, absolutely. Like, I've had my client, James, the past
few weeks where he was a bit overweight, feeling down,
you know, he was like, let go from one of
his jobs, like had bad relationships in the past and
through the training, by the end, we got his body
to this amazing place. We did just that. We built
that confidence. We put him in a better place where
(23:27):
now he's like going through all these different job interviews,
like in a better situation and just feeling much better
as a person and a lot of people to that
I that I deal with, you know, as they open
up to me about the personal side, they are coming
from these relationships, they are broken in a sense, and
it's really just piecing them back together through like fitness
and exercise and moving like in the direction they need
(23:47):
to be moved in.
S5 (23:48):
I would, I would imagine that some of those people
have really broken. I mean, it's a broken world. So,
you know, you can't help sometimes, but but be in
that place.
S6 (23:58):
But they're tough, man. Like a lot of these people
are have been through a lot of a struggle. Right.
And that that builds you in a way I know it.
I know at the time you may feel like you've
gone through hell, but some of the hardest times that
you go through actually builds a foundation for you to
have an appreciation and dig deep and to move into
(24:19):
a better place, right? So a lot of these people
are tough as hell because they've stuck around these people
for so long.
S5 (24:24):
Oh, yeah. Absolutely.
S4 (24:26):
That's why we call them survivors, because they're no longer victims.
They go from Of victims to survivors. And I have
to tell you, Luke, I've seen that transition. In some
some of my clients where they do take my advice
and they it's like. Okay, let me handle your divorce part.
You go get the education on what this is. And
(24:48):
you go get, you know, physically trained and feel better.
And I've seen them in court. Like, you know, a
couple months pass by and then I see them and
I'm like, oh my goodness. You know, and they're like, look,
you know, I'll never choose this type of person again
because I'm a different person now. And so that's like
the most rewarding thing.
S6 (25:08):
Yeah, absolutely.
S5 (25:09):
I know that, um, that one of the other advantages
or maybe even two that I can, I can think
of that, that physical training at least provided for me
and maybe you can speak to this is is kind
of the discipline in one area of life carries over
into into others. Have you seen have you and I
know you're like ridiculously Disciplined person because I've seen your
(25:31):
abs and I know, I know that you've got to
be disciplined in order to have those jokers, because I'm
not quite that disciplined, but I'm getting there. So how
have you how have you seen the, the idea of, of,
of building a discipline in your life and seeing that
carry over into other places?
S6 (25:52):
Yeah, absolutely. And that's a that's a good question. I
think discipline, like anything else is, is a muscle per se.
It's not like it's not like I have an extraordinary
amount of willpower than, you know, other people. It's more
of you make a progressive, uh, building of your own discipline.
And that's just through input habits. Right. So that's why
I always start with my clients and kind of assess
(26:13):
where they're at currently in that system, and then do
something appropriate. So it's not like I'm asking the world
of them, but it's also at a place that's met
to their needs. So we can actually build that discipline
over time through the habits that we're doing day by day.
So it's a it's a progressive thing. It's like what
are your daily inputs. And then what can we layer in.
But absolutely as a byproduct you transform your mind in
(26:37):
a way where you're able. And what is discipline in
that day. It's it's choosing that delayed gratification route instead
of the instant one in front of your face. Right?
It's when you're exhausted. You don't want to do it,
but you're like, you know what? I'm going to feel
better when I do it. I'm going to love myself tomorrow.
Let's go do it right. Or it's, you know, having
cookies and pastries in your face, saying no to that,
and then shifting over to more protein and fruits and
(26:57):
veggies like that. Stuff's not always easy. But by those choices,
in small stages, you build that muscle in your mind
and you build that confidence to make it. Um, and
that being said, it doesn't mean you have to be perfect, right?
I still, I don't make all the perfect right choices
all the time, but it's, it's more of having routine and, uh,
kind of like skill set that you fall back into
on a routine. So you, you're more net making right
(27:20):
choices than, than not. Right. So it's not being. Yeah.
I think that's the other mistake. People think they have
to be perfect. But that's not realistic. You know So. So. Yeah, man,
I totally experienced that. Yeah.
S5 (27:31):
I think these disciplines can actually change how you feel
about things in life and not just, you know, the
thought for me, you know, the correlation. I'm thinking in food.
I hate broccoli or hated broccoli and vegetables and things
like that. Like I couldn't stand eating that stuff. And
if you discipline yourself, eventually what happens is you start
(27:56):
to kind of crave the good stuff. And, and, and
the other stuff, like you put sweet tea in front
of me and, and it's a spit take. I can't
stand this stuff, you know that. You ask for unsweet
and they deliver you sweet tea and it's, you know,
it's it's so sickeningly sweet you realize kind of where
you were and the things you, you had tolerated and,
(28:18):
and gotten used to. And and the same is true
in narcissistic abuse as you as you get this clarity,
you're like, oh my, oh my God, I tolerated. I
tolerated this. And and and the thought of going back
to that becomes absolutely ridiculous. Like, there's just no way
I could. I could even fathom that. And then you
(28:40):
start craving the good stuff and the stuff that makes
you healthy. And you build this kind of momentum in
your life that that I think has positive benefits, not
just in your physical well-being, but also in your emotional health.
S6 (28:54):
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And part of what that is, is
like the delayed gratification arrives, right? So it's like, okay,
some of this work that I've done, I'm actually getting
results from that. I'm actually getting a reward from that.
And that's really my goal too, is like, let's try
to get get you there as soon and as fast
as we can, you know, because then it's that starts
to replace some of those negative choices that you're making.
(29:16):
And that's why you start to crave the good stuff
because you're like, hey, I'm actually getting this reward I've
never felt before. I'm actually feeling a lot better. You
know what I mean? And it's like, I like this,
you know. Let's do more of that.
S5 (29:27):
Yeah.
S4 (29:28):
Um, John knows this about me, so I disclose this
to him as my friend. So I'm going through perimenopause
right now. And so one of the things the doctor
said to me, and I have a great doctor in
Newport Beach, he said, you need to start exercising. And
I said, well, I already exercise. And he was like,
I need you to do double of that because that's really,
(29:50):
really vitally important to I hope your response.
S5 (29:54):
Was getting old sucks. Yeah. I tell Luke that all
the time. Getting old sucks.
S7 (30:01):
Yeah.
S4 (30:02):
You know what? It's I'm going to turn 50 this year,
and I feel like that's a blessing because many people
don't make it to 50. Right. And so I'm in
the best shape of my life. I have a great husband.
I have a great career. I've got great friends like
John here. But, um, so it's so important. And that
was like literally the first thing he said was exercise
(30:24):
And then let me give you the vitamins and the
supplements you need. But I said I already exercised. He's like,
I need you to do more of it during this
period of time in your life. So it's it really
exercising and getting your mind and body right goes all
stages of your life. Right? And so, um, you know,
(30:46):
just take one step before the other. And that's what
I was saying earlier. I just literally my mom signed
me up. I literally would lie there on a mat
at the gym, like, I didn't do any other exercise
but lie there for like maybe 30 minutes and go home.
And that's all I could do.
S5 (31:05):
Isn't that crazy that that could be your first step?
You know, like like literally just walking into the gym
and laying on the mat, maybe stretching a little bit,
like like it seemed people go, what good does that do?
It does you good. You know, it's it it's step
one to keeping yourself moving. And you you build on that.
(31:27):
And that's kind of what makes you healthy in the
days forward.
S7 (31:31):
100% sure.
S6 (31:32):
Yeah. It's like building in that routine, right? And I
think that's that's the first step is people have to
think logistically. Okay, well which gym am I going to
go to? Am I going to do it at home.
What exercise am I going to do? What equipment. So
it's all these initial things that you have to make
decisions on and get forward and, and really to start
just just go out for a walk, you know, if
that's where you're at, start very simple and just start
(31:54):
to make it a routine. And then there's nothing stopping
you from building on top of that slowly but surely.
So it's you don't have to build Rome in a day.
It could be as simple as going to the gym,
laying on a mat that worked for you. Mhm.
S7 (32:09):
Yes, yes.
S4 (32:11):
Um, so I know John, um, you know, John and
I have a lot of things in common and that's
why we're really good friends. But one of the things
and we didn't really Realize this until we had started
talking to Luke, is that we do have this in
common where our healing started at the gym. And so
(32:33):
I think for our audience, we want to we're really
emphasizing this because this worked for us, and we know
that if it works for us, it will also work
for you. Isn't that true, John?
S5 (32:45):
It is. And for me, what's craziest about this? You know,
so I again I was I was in such a
low place. I really kind of didn't know what to
do with myself. And, um, like I said, suicidal, kind
of understated it and had been in this space for
such a really long time with brain fog and confusion
(33:06):
and emotionally upside down. And, you know, by the end
of the, the abusive cycle and some people it's for
some people it's months they get they get here in
months for for some people it's years, and for other
people it's decades. And for me, it was it was decades.
It was 25 years of this before I really kind
(33:27):
of I kind of understood, um, and, and this wound
up being my first step, but I didn't realize it
was my first step, that that's that's the thing. I mean,
I got to this in different, different way. Again, back
to the, you know, the the picture in the parade, I,
I was, I was there from that. But but it
(33:48):
wound up being something different for me that helped me
pull out and I didn't I didn't realize what I
was doing up front.
S6 (33:56):
John. And sorry to interrupt. I just something came to mind.
So so what do you guys and you can weigh
in on this, what do you feel is the main
thing that keeps people in a narcissistic relationship?
S4 (34:08):
Oh my goodness. It's so many things. I mean it's
it's different for different people. Obviously a lot of times
it's the children. Um, they cannot imagine they know that
they're suffering abuse some of the times, but they can't
imagine leaving their children to suffer the abuse without them
being in the home. So I know that's I know John,
(34:31):
and that's John's story, right? He would have gotten out
a lot sooner had he not had children. And so that's,
you know, obviously one thing. Um, their trauma bonded. So
they don't they don't even know that they're in this
type of relationship. They're constantly covering up with the abuse. Um, sometimes, Luke,
(34:52):
the first time someone has heard about narcissism is when
they come to see me as a divorce attorney, and
I and I start to say, well, let's go over
some of the traits and they go, oh my gosh,
you know? And I'm like, now you're going to go
down a rabbit hole, okay? And you're going to come
out stronger because now you're educated and you understand what
(35:14):
this is. So I think, you know, that's at least
two of the reasons people stay in these types of
abusive relationships. John, what do you think?
S5 (35:24):
You know, I think I think the children, my kids
were certainly a part of that. Um, you know, being
being a person of faith also, I like I just
don't believe in divorce. I tell people all the time,
you know, it took me. It took me 25 years
to even consider the thought. And as a husband and
(35:44):
a felt leader of the family and the one who
provides and, um, and and on top of that, being
long suffering and loyal and all those things, it winds
up being a situation where your best characteristics are used
against you, and they kind of keep you in something
that is, you know, situation where you're you're being beat
(36:06):
over the head and, and that undoubtedly, you know, for
me was was where I was. And on top of
the trauma bond, I, you know, there was my trauma
bond ended while I was in the marriage. In one
bad comment from her and I was like, okay, I'm done.
You know, I can't go any further. There's no I
(36:28):
can't be attached to this anymore. And I began the
process of separation emotionally the last couple of years. Um,
but it definitely keeps you it definitely keeps you in
something that's that's just unhealthy.
S7 (36:43):
Mhm.
S6 (36:43):
For sure. So, so there's, uh, there's so it seems
almost like okay a lack of awareness. Um, is, is
a big part of that. Right. And also you don't
even realize that your good qualities are being used against
you in a sense, and you feel like this is
just your duty to do this for your family. And
that's that's more what I'm hearing from you, John. Right.
S5 (37:05):
Yeah. And and some of it may be this is
a terrible word to use for this situation. Maybe, but
it's accurate is maybe it's just habit. You know, you're
so used to something. Um, I used to tell my therapist,
I go, you know what? I don't want to be
a divorced and single. And I also don't want to
be married like I like. I was stuck in this
(37:27):
place where I didn't feel like I could transition, I didn't.
I knew I couldn't live in what I was living,
but I also didn't want what was ahead. I felt like,
you know, here's some swampland. Go enjoy it. I'm 53
years old. Go start your life over again, by the way,
with no money and and and find a place to
live and figure a way to to get a car
(37:49):
and and and as you go through this process of
divorcing or leaving the relationship, you're going, what am I
going to be left with? I don't even know. On
the other side, um, and you, it winds up being
this tremendous just just chaos in your head. And for me,
the the engagement in the physical. You know what it was, Luke?
(38:14):
It was one good thing. So there's a there's a
television show you've probably never seen because you're young, but
it was called The Flintstones. Maybe you know who they are. Surely.
But you didn't watch them in the first run. But
there was this character in The Flintstones named Schleprock, and
he was this little guy who stood about this tall,
(38:36):
and he had his own little storm cloud that followed
him wherever he went. And it was just as big
as him. And you'd see lightning and rain, and it
was constantly raining on him. And that's what it feels
like to be in, in narcissistic abuse, like your whole world, this,
this storm cloud of chaos and of pain and of
hurt and of abuse and insanity is following you around.
(39:03):
And when I got to the gym, it was one
ray of sunshine that shined through that thing. It was
the one good thing that was happening to me. That
helped me change my life. And it felt like, you know,
as the sun kind of peered through this cloud, it
began to stretch out a little bit. And and perhaps
(39:26):
I gained some, some momentum in life that that started
in the gym and ultimately wound up kind of transcending my,
my whole life in time. Um, have you seen Luke
that this. And in fact, you and I have talked
about this before. I don't just go to the gym.
(39:46):
You don't just go to the gym. This is my life.
This is like it's altered my lifestyle. This the gym
is not just an add on to what I do.
It has kind of become who I am. How have you.
Have you felt that same way? And how has that
kind of helped you to to to keep momentum in
your own life?
S6 (40:07):
Yeah, I think that's a good question, John. And this
is something where behaviorally you want to bridge people too?
Because at the end of the day, if if you're
not working out per se regularly, that what that means
to me. To me, in some level, you don't enjoy
working out right? So it's not a question of like,
should I be working out or not? It's like, how
do I actually get myself to enjoy exercise, right? So
(40:29):
so it's like if we can tackle that as a,
as a, as a progressive step system and then it happens. Right.
Because we link you into that delayed gratification. And that's
where you're at now John. That's that's more of why
we do it. Because we like to we enjoy it.
It's as part of our lives where it's like, it's
not this like staple discipline, I'm sure. I mean, there's
some days or exercises that may feel like that, but
(40:50):
overall we like to go do it. Like clears our head,
gets us in a good place. It works towards our health.
So we're linked in to that delayed gratification result. And
we stay in that positive loop and we enjoy that process.
So really bringing people into that is really the goal
at the end of the day. And that's what makes
something sustainable is because, hey, I like to do it right.
(41:12):
I like to feel good. I like to be healthy.
I like to fit my clothes. I like to feel
confident when dating. I like to feel good about myself.
So when people start to experience those things, then the
behavior that got them there becomes enjoyable, right?
S5 (41:26):
And it's interesting in this, in this world, life is
prone to disorder. It's it's prone to to come apart
as instead of come together, you go and you plant
flowers in your garden. And if you don't weed the
thing in three weeks, you've got impatience and weeds. Everything
worth having in life requires some maintenance and attention. And
(41:51):
and ultimately people make decisions in doing absolutely. Doing nothing
is actually a decision in and of itself. And and
that's where doing nothing keeps you prone to disorder, doing
nothing and not just physically but also emotionally as well.
If you do it, doing nothing. Will will put you
(42:11):
in a place where where in time you're you're you're
thinking becomes more difficult and more crazy, and you become
more confused in the days ahead rather than rather than less.
Unless you begin to adopt some of these things in
your life to go alter the the natural force of
of the world, which you know, in the in physical
(42:34):
terms is having having body fat and not being lean and,
and you know, obesity and and and ultimately sickness and
things like that as well. We haven't even talked about that.
I mean, the, the benefits of, of training and sickness
in the days ahead. Um, and, and, you know, with
the mind body connection, there are people, I think, who
(42:54):
who have post-traumatic stress disorder from, from narcissistic abuse. And
we hear oftentimes as well who who have sicknesses and
ailments from, from these kinds of things. But did you
have have you experienced that with any of your clients.
Have you, um, have you had people who were kind
of sick and as they got out of this and
(43:16):
began to to train and take care of themselves, became
different in that capacity as well?
S4 (43:22):
I mean, yeah, over the last, you know, 22 years
of practicing, I can't even believe I'm saying that, um,
you're not that old, you know, definitely. I'm definitely seeing
that you've been.
S5 (43:34):
Practicing since Luke was eight.
S7 (43:37):
I know.
S4 (43:38):
Let's not rub it in, okay? But, um, you know,
the last 5 or 6 years I've really focused on
narcissism because that's when kind of the light bulb went on. Um,
just learning it through social media and things of that nature.
So definitely I have seen great changes and listen, my
(44:00):
clients and I, like I have the best clients. Okay,
I don't know, I don't know many divorce attorneys that
say that. But at our firm we get to pick
and choose who we want as clients. And so we
usually will. We have usually the, you know, the high
conflict victim, um, client that we're trying to help. And
(44:20):
it's amazing to see that transformation becoming the survivor. And, um,
you know, I just I love this conversation and I
love that we brought this topic to our listeners. Um, Luke,
if people want to, um, get to contact with you,
(44:41):
what would be the best way to do that? Because
I know that there's, um, our listeners are going to
reach out to you and get on your program, your system.
What is the best way to do that? Because this
has just been such a great conversation with you.
S6 (44:56):
Yeah, absolutely. I appreciate you. You asking? The best way
would it be through my Instagram, which is just my
name with the underscore. So Luke Holbrook underscore. It'll it'll
pop right up. and I'd be more than happy to
to just talk with with anybody about this topic and
if there's any alignment with what I do and if
it would be helpful for them, more than happy to
do that.
S5 (45:16):
And, and, you know, having been a client, um, with
Luke as well. And again, I've been training for years,
but I felt like I needed to up my game.
So I went to Luke about a year ago. Um,
there are people out there trying to rape you, blind
financially in physical fitness, on social media channels. And one
(45:37):
of the things I appreciate appreciated about Luke was that
his he was reasonably priced. He's he's engaged. You do
get some some personal time with with he and or
his brother in a very small group setting. So you
get you get some attention that way as well. He
lays out if you don't know anything about physical training, um,
Luke has what he calls precision metrics to help work
(45:59):
you through, take you from point A to point B,
so you don't have to know anything about physical fitness.
All you have to do is have a desire to
want to change. And he can, and he can help
move you to that space and take you through that, um,
as part of his process. And he'll, he'll do the
assessment with you. But I couldn't I couldn't speak more
(46:19):
highly of the guy. And I'm grateful that I've spent
the last year training with him as well. And I
plan on continuing.
S6 (46:27):
So you've been awesome. Awesome, soldier man. And I remember
a little tough.
S5 (46:32):
Year, man.
S6 (46:33):
Yeah. And you can imagine a lot of clients, you know,
I work with, they go on trips on vacations, and
we work through these things and balance and making the
right decisions, building awareness. It's a huge part when it
comes to fitness. You know, what should I eat? What
should I not? Should I cheat, should I not? Things
of that nature. And, um, John was on this cruise
and one of the first days, for whatever reason, we
still don't really know how stepped out of the hot
(46:55):
tub on the on the cruise ship, slipped in and
broke his ankle and fractured the whole thing.
S5 (47:00):
You had to tell it. Yeah.
S6 (47:03):
And we're like, you know what? It's not going to
stop us. So anything we could do workout wise, upper body, anything.
Even with the leg, we still just plowed through it.
And you know what? Um, part of the recovery in
that actually aids recovery to keep stay active and keep moving.
And I think you, you, you know, healed in record time.
So yeah, it was awesome to see, man. You know
proud of you man.
S5 (47:21):
Thank you I really appreciate that. And you know what's
interesting about that is, is that most people my age
could not I live by myself. Most people my age
could not have cared for themselves at my age. I
have a I have a house with steps upstairs and downstairs,
and I'm hopping up and down stairs and, you know,
crawling my laundry basket up the stairs. Uh, most people
(47:44):
would have required.
S6 (47:45):
Hey, dude. That's good. That's good cardio, man.
S7 (47:46):
Let's use it, man.
S6 (47:47):
It was our bodies getting built.
S5 (47:49):
It really was. But but again, I was able to
go do something that was very difficult because of the
training I had done. And that translates emotionally as well.
You're looking at your life right now if you're in
narcissistic abuse and going, how the hell am I going
to go do this? And you just go, you know what,
I don't know, but the training can help you. It
(48:10):
can help move you from a place of of being
confused to having clarity. And the other thing I wanted
to say before we get off is this it will
give you momentum in life. People ask me all the time, well,
how do you how do you have the motivation? Go
to the gym? I don't I don't have to have
motivation anymore because I've got this momentum behind me of
(48:32):
years of training that carries me to this, and it's
become a part of who I am. And as you
begin to engage in these kinds of things, you are
actually changing your lifestyle as you begin to take care
of yourself physically. And Luke is all about that. And again,
reach out to him. Luke Holbrook underscore on Instagram. If
(48:52):
you want to go have a consultation and he'll sit
with you. So all right, thanks so much for being here, Perdida.
Thanks for times.
S2 (49:03):
Thank you for listening to the Narcissist Abuse Recovery Channel.
Be sure to follow and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
To hear other episodes or read the associated blogs, visit
Olas Media.com and be sure to follow us on Instagram
with the Handle Narco podcast. The guest views, thoughts and
(49:23):
opinions expressed are their own. The information presented is for
general information purposes only and is not intended to be
legal advice. The co-hosts are not licensed therapists. Seek professional
help as information is often state specific. The Narcissist Abuse
Recovery Channel is produced in studios in San Diego, California
(49:46):
and Tijuana, Baja California. Eolas media is an IVC media company.
S1 (50:00):
Lost media.
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