April 15, 2025 • 28 mins
In this episode of the Narcissist Abuse Recovery Channel, Jon McKenney and Padideh Jafari discuss their personal experiences with divorce from narcissistic partners. They explore the emotional struggles and guilt that often accompany leaving such relationships, the nature of marriage, and the importance of recognizing the illusion of a perfect relationship. The conversation emphasizes the need for healing and self-forgiveness after experiencing narcissistic abuse, encouraging listeners to seek therapy and support as they navigate their recovery journey.
Chapters:
00:00 Introduction and Personal Backgrounds
03:03 Divorce Statistics and Personal Experiences
06:08 Guilt and Emotional Struggles After Divorce
12:00 Understanding the Nature of Marriage
17:57 The Illusion of a Perfect Relationship
21:08 Healing and Moving Forward After Narcissistic Abuse
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Padideh Jafari (00:03):
I said to her, I said, I don't want to give up on
my family. And without evenmissing a beat, she said, what
family?
Voiceover (00:15):
Welcome to the Narcissist Abuse Recovery
Channel with John McKenney andPadida Jafari.
Jon McKenney (00:21):
Hi Padida how are doing today?
Padideh Jafari (00:23):
I'm doing well how are you?
Jon McKenney (00:25):
Good it's another episode of the Narcissist Abuse
Recovery Channel. How have youbeen?
Padideh Jafari (00:29):
I've been doing well, just sort of busy with the
law firm but otherwise doingwell.
Jon McKenney (00:35):
I imagine law work very definitely keeps you busy,
especially if you're in divorcelaw these days. What is it like
fifty six percent of everybodywho marries gets divorced?
Padideh Jafari (00:44):
Actually in LA County where we practice law
it's sixty two percent.
Jon McKenney (00:50):
Go figure there's a surprise.
Padideh Jafari (00:52):
And that's on the first marriage. The second
marriage is seventy two percent,and the third marriage is in the
80s. So, Oh
Jon McKenney (01:01):
my gosh.
Padideh Jafari (01:02):
Actually, divorce attorneys in LA say it
is a starter marriage. So yourfirst marriage is your starter
marriage, like you buy a starterhome, because it's almost like
no offense, but it's almost likea joke.
Jon McKenney (01:20):
Interestingly enough, both you and I are
divorced. We've not kind of madeany secret about that. We each
divorced narcissists. How longago was yours?
Padideh Jafari (01:31):
Oh my goodness. I believe fifteen years ago now.
Jon McKenney (01:37):
Was it really that long?
Padideh Jafari (01:39):
Yes. Wow.
Jon McKenney (01:41):
And mine was I'm coming up on five. So my what I
call my Freedomversary is comingup very shortly.
Padideh Jafari (01:50):
I love that freedom verse.
Jon McKenney (01:52):
Yeah, yes, I replaced. I replaced my
anniversary with a freedomversary. So the day I I got
notice that my divorce wasofficial. That is my freedom
versary day and I celebratedevery year the freedom I have
from the narcissist who was inmy life.
Padideh Jafari (02:10):
That sounds great. I think I think I will
use that. Although, it's been solong for me that I don't really
even celebrate or not celebratethat. I just feel I'm
celebrating. Will give you alittle bit of good news is I am
celebrating my third yearanniversary to my current and
(02:34):
final husband next week.
Jon McKenney (02:37):
So the starter marriage is done.
Padideh Jafari (02:39):
The starter marriage is done. Second
marriage and April 2, we'recelebrating. Wonderful. I'd
rather celebrate that than theFreedomversary.
Jon McKenney (02:50):
Yeah, I'm not remarried so I'll keep
celebrating my Freedomversary.
Padideh Jafari (02:54):
That sounds good.
Jon McKenney (02:55):
I have a question for you, something I've been
thinking about here lately.There are lot of our listeners
out there who left a narcissist,who left kids, who left family,
who left situations that wereand things that behind that were
(03:15):
important to them. And I wonderif we didn't feel some guilt for
walking away, even though wewere in a situation where we
were mentally and emotionallyabused.
Padideh Jafari (03:32):
That's a good question.
Jon McKenney (03:35):
So so and I was trying to trying to look back on
some of the things in my ownlife and and thinking thinking
back through it. And and part ofme there's a part of me. That
when I did get the message, gotthe got the email or actually
the call from my attorney whosaid, guess what? You are
(03:56):
legally divorced. I can rememberexactly where I was etched in my
mind.
I was in the gym locker room. Iwas I just finished a workout.
And I can remember hanging upthe phone and sighing and then
going and jumping up and downwith my hands in the air going,
woo hoo, woo hoo. I was so I wasso excited to be out. And then
(04:20):
it settles in, I think, what'sactually taken place in this
person who you loved or evenperhaps still love.
You can still love somebody anddivorce them. And you feel guilt
over leaving them. And I think Ifelt some guilt over that.
(04:42):
Particularly where it came tothe kids and those kinds of
things, I felt like I was nowagain I should qualify. All of
my kids were out of high school.
I waited until then to untilthey were out of high school and
into college. Two of them werealready graduated even from
college. Two were still incollege when I left, but there
(05:03):
there was this feeling. Like Iwas abandoning them to just her,
even though I had no intentionof ending relationship with them
in any kind of way. And I feltlike I had given up on something
that I wish would have workedout.
(05:26):
And I think that haunted me fora long time. I wondered if I was
a failure, I wondered if I was aquitter. And at the same time, I
was in such a bad placeemotionally. I don't Like I had
to do it to protect my own lifeall at the same time. There was
no other option.
I felt like, you know, wastwenty seven years of marriage
(05:48):
and I got to this place. I couldnot go any further and it was
the right decision like I haveabsolutely no qualms about that
either. It was the rightdecision, but there was there
was a nagging guilt over it overwhat I'd left behind. That I
think haunted me for some time,so I was wondering did you feel
(06:08):
that as well? Did you feel guiltover?
Over leaving, over yoursituation when you divorced?
Padideh Jafari (06:16):
I think it's such a great question because I
think what happens with thesenarcissists or cluster B
personality disordered people,what happens is they always sort
of attach to empaths andsympathetic people by nature.
(06:36):
Right? That's true. Very
Jon McKenney (06:38):
true. Very true.
Padideh Jafari (06:39):
And so for me, I had a tremendous amount of
guilt. Even though we did nothave children together, I did
have a stepdaughter who I loved.I was in her life for seven
years from the age of seven to14. So I didn't want to leave
(07:00):
sort of my family. And I'llnever forget this conversation I
had with my mom, who is in her90s now.
I said to her, I said, I don'twant to give up on my family.
And without even missing a beat,she said, what family? And I
(07:20):
said, what are you talkingabout? I've been with this
person for seven years. Wow.
I love him. I love mystepdaughter. And she said, your
spouse is supposed to have yourback. That's what makes them
your spouse is that they haveyour back, they're for you,
they're not working against you.And she said, family that you
(07:46):
have that you keep saying Idon't want to leave my family is
like a figment of yourimagination.
Because it's not a real family.It's you doing all the work for
him and obviously mystepdaughter, but it's not him
even showing up for you. And sheset an example of my father. She
(08:11):
said, even though your fatherand I are really different, he
has always had my back. And whenshe said that, it was sort of
like an moment for me because Ilooked back at the last seven
years of how my spouse didn'thave my back.
And so it really made me it kindof made me realize that I needed
(08:36):
to cut the cord. And Mhmm. I wasa divorce attorney at the time,
but we went to a mediator friendof mine. And know, again, we
didn't have a child, so it wasno custody issues. It was just
material things that we hadacquired.
And long story short, shedrafted the documents, but it
(08:58):
took me three years to actuallysign the final document because
I subsequently moved to New Yorkfor a number of years. I started
teaching at NYU. It wasn't apriority. And there was a sort
of this nagging thing about,well what if we get back
together? And what if God, youknow, in his infinite wisdom is
(09:22):
going to cure, this thing thatthis man has, which I didn't at
the time note was narcissism.
But what if, like I wanted togive that space. And even though
I had now moved part time to NewYork and I was bicoastal, and my
(09:45):
mom finally said to me afterthree years, like, what are you
doing? You're still attached tothis person, and you need to
finalize this. And my ex husbandwas, he said to me, he's like,
you know, I'm dating this girl.He dated this girl right after
we separated.
(10:05):
Actually, was dating herprobably while we were still
married and I'm still not Ihaven't acknowledged that in my
brain. But he said, You know,I've been dating her for three
years and she wants me to finishour divorce. Like she wants me
to do this. And I said, Okay,I'm fine. I'm ready to do it.
And so we went back to themediator friend of mine who's
(10:28):
now actually a judge in LosAngeles County, and she
finalized the documents. And twothings I asked for, and only two
things were my my engagementring and my dog, Zoe. And he
even said, well, I wantvisitation with Zoe. And I said,
okay. You know?
And that was kinda likesomething we laughed about. And
(10:50):
we signed the paper, we went tothe garage together. And I'll
never forget this, it was likehe gave me a hug and he was
like, I'm sorry. And tears inhis eyes and I'm just thinking
to myself, oh my gosh. Like, youknow, again, that was like the
guilt thing.
Like, I was happy on onerespect. On another respect, I
(11:13):
had guilt because I had beenthis person's savior, I felt
like for seven years. And thenthe other half, I was like, this
is finally freedom.
Jon McKenney (11:25):
Yeah.
Padideh Jafari (11:26):
So it was a range of emotions. And then I
gave him a hug and I said, okay,you know. And and I got in the
car and I sobbed. Not likecried, I sobbed all the way to
my mom's house. And, you know, Ihad guilt after that point of
finally signing the divorcedocument for the next two years.
(11:52):
So it took me two years to justforgive myself and you know,
forgive myself for, I don't knowwhat it is, like not being good
enough, not trying hard enough,all the things, all the
(12:12):
emotions. And then it took eightyears from the like, 02/2010
when we filed for the divorce,it took eight years before I
finally realized I'm ready tostart a real meaningful
(12:33):
relationship with someone else.So this and by the way, again,
we did not have children. So youcan imagine how much more
difficult it is for someone thathas a child that is constantly
connected to their co parentbecause of the child.
Jon McKenney (12:49):
Mhmm. That's absolutely something more to
think about. I'm fascinated bysomething you said, And it goes
back to, was it your mom thatsaid this to you? She basically
said this is not a marriage, forlack of a better phraseology.
And I think that's kind of whatgot me out of this whole idea of
(13:15):
guilt over it.
And I felt the same kinds ofthings you did as well, where it
was, you know, I don't like tolose, I didn't want to lose, I
didn't ever want to be divorced,like I didn't ever want to be a
divorced guy. Then there arereligious implications as well.
I'm a believer in Jesus Christand consider myself a Christian
(13:37):
and I'm not raised with divorceand from a religious perspective
don't believe in it as well.That also had some impact and
bearing on my situation too. ButI think the thing that got me
out was having to go back andassess what a marriage really is
(13:57):
and what a marriage really isnot.
So as thought about it, Ithought there are people in life
who enter into a legal agreementand marriage is a legal
agreement, legally bindingagreement. And as they enter
(14:18):
into this thing, there arepeople who enter into legally
binding agreements and they'renot really married. There are
people who buy a house togetherand they're not married. There
are people who have childrentogether and they're not
married. So you have a legaldocument, you have kids, you
(14:39):
have a house, you have thingstogether, And it begs the
question, what is a marriage?
What's at center of it? Andultimately, what I concluded was
this. A marriage is a loverelationship of choice where,
like you described, you arepresent for each other. And
(15:00):
that's something that waspromised upfront, and that was
something that was neverdelivered on for me. So I had it
was like it was like I had Ifelt like I had all the icing
and I had no cake.
There was no substance to it.And icing by itself was just
(15:23):
terrible. So yeah, I had ahouse. Yeah, I had kids. Yeah,
we had cars.
Yeah, we had rings. Yeah, we hadthis legal document that said we
were married. But what qualifiedit all as a marriage was
actually the relationship at thecenter. And a real marriage kind
of spins these things spin offof that. You have kids from that
(15:46):
love relationship.
You have a house from that loverelationship. You have a legal
agreement from that loverelationship. You have cars
because of that loverelationship. You have rings
because of that loverelationship. And my conclusion
was, and this will soundridiculous for a guy who was
legally married for twenty sevenyears.
(16:07):
I was legally married, but Ithink never emotionally married
in any kind of way. And to me,that's kind of the real
marriage. That's what I signedup for in the whole thing. And
by her own admission, she said,look, we were done at three
months in into the relationship.And she just kept using me and
pretending and ended there.
(16:31):
Marriage literally ended rightthere. That was the point of
discard for her where she said,Okay, I just don't want anything
to go do with this anymore.Three months in gave some lame
excuse for leaving the situationor leaving emotionally and never
returning and felt no remorseover it whatsoever. So I had to
go back and realize that mymarriage, even those first three
(16:51):
months, probably never reallywere what I thought they were. I
was attached to something thatnever really existed more than
anything else, and I felt guiltover that.
Padideh Jafari (17:01):
I think you're absolutely right. I I I'm
recalling a conversation thatJohnny Depp, was talking to
Amber Heard, and they playedthis tape. She was actually
taping him to use it against,Johnny Depp in the trial, but it
actually backfired on her. Hesaid, I never knew you. You were
(17:27):
a figment of my imagination.
You were everything I built youup to be in my mind, but in
reality, I never knew you. Andand if you if you've never heard
that audio, please go listen toit.
Jon McKenney (17:42):
Well, it just so happens that I happen to have
the quote here, and here's theexact quote from Johnny Depp. He
said this, I loved you for somany fucking years, but you know
what? You didn't exist. Youdon't exist. You're not there.
You're not there. You're afucking made up thing in my
head. Again, that's Johnny Deppin a recording that, Amber Heard
actually made a video.
Padideh Jafari (18:01):
Literally, he has so much pain in his voice.
Now whether you think, you know,Johnny Depp is a narcissist or
Amber Heard is or whateveryou're but like that is exactly
what it's like to be in arelationship and marriage with a
narcissist. You never knew them.Because if you knew
Jon McKenney (18:21):
I say no cake.
Padideh Jafari (18:22):
Yeah if you knew them, if you knew your ex wife
who she was would you have evermarried her?
Jon McKenney (18:30):
Hell no. There's no way absolutely. If I thought
it was going to go the way it'sgone, is not what I signed up
for. Who wants to go restarttheir life later on and having
to go start over from completescratch in almost every facet of
your life? This is not what Idreamed of.
Padideh Jafari (18:48):
Right. There's no question about Today the
person that I am, you knowfifteen years later after the
divorce, is so different thanwho I was the girl that you know
said I do, you know '28, '20 '9.The great thing about my ex
(19:11):
husband, who is a malignantnarcissist, is he painted this
perfect picture of what lifewould be and his devotion to me
and my family, who I'm veryclose with. As you know, I'm
Iranian. And I just fell in lovewith the story of this fairy
(19:33):
tale that never materializedbecause he was not genuinely who
he said he was.
And Well, and it's their
Jon McKenney (19:42):
it's their own fairy tale also. And they're
pretending to be somebodythey're not from the beginning.
So, is a legally bindingagreement even valid when
somebody makes ridiculousstatements or pretends
completely that something isthat it's not and you get into
this legal agreement and go,Wait a minute, this isn't right.
And those are the kinds ofthings that ultimately go to
(20:03):
court, which is divorce.
Padideh Jafari (20:06):
Right. So yeah, I think you're absolutely right
when you say there's a cake. Andthe cake looks great. Because
it's got the icing. I'm thinkingabout my wedding cake.
It's got the icing. I had a hugebow on the cake because my
second dress had a big bow onthe back and so I wanted to
match it. And like I can seethat what you're saying. Like I
(20:26):
can visualize it because I'msuch a visual person. But then
you cut into the cake and you'relike, there's nothing here but
this beautiful exterior.
And that, I think John, you justdescribed like the narcissist to
a tee. Because It's a shell.It's, and it looks so good. They
just look so good from theoutside. And that's why it's
(20:49):
also very difficult to convinceother people that there's no
depth.
There's nothing there. Theoutside, they only see the
outside the narcissist hascompletely made the outside look
so beautiful with this big bowand then you're like, but no,
(21:09):
no, no, there's nothing thereand they're abusive and they've
done this and they call me namesand they hit me. Me it was like,
you know, he was a sex addict,so it was like pornography and
physical abuse towards the end.And it's like, what are you
talking about? They didn't wannabelieve me because they're like,
it looks so good from theoutside.
Jon McKenney (21:30):
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So let's wrap this
up. Are there people out there,there are listeners who we care
deeply about, even though wedon't know them? That's why we
do this.
If you feel guilt over havingleft for whatever reason, I'd
(21:53):
say a couple of things. Fromreligious perspective, I would
tell you I don't believe Godmeant you to be abused by your
spouse emotionally or otherwise.I personally believe as well
that emotional hurts can even beworse than physical ones. Padida
and I both sat with a group ofveterans who had gone through
something like this with theirspouses, and I asked a question
(22:16):
and I said, Would you rather beshot at or would you rather go
through what you've been throughwith a narcissist? Hands went up
100% I'd rather be shot at thanhave to go through the emotional
pain of this.
I don't believe God everintended for that. Ultimately,
(22:36):
again, the emotional wounds canbe as deep or deeper than
physical wounds. And the secondpart of that is realizing what
you had or actually didn't have.Remember the narcissist was
pretending. They entered into anagreement with you of pretending
they were something that theywere not.
(23:01):
And again, as soon as you gotmarried or got involved with
him, things started to changeand they became this other kind
of person, which is arelationship of using and not
loving. And I will tell you thatonce I realized that I had I
never really had therelationship I thought I had,
and that it was all under falsepretenses from the beginning. My
(23:25):
ex was gracious in this to meand told me in front of my
pastor, Well, I never reallyloved you. So those kinds of
things help you understand andgo, Okay, well you know what?
Was fooled from the beginning.
I was duped, for that reason, Ihonored it as best I could for
as far as I could possibly gowith it, and then from then on,
(23:49):
had to end, and and there'sreally no reason for guilt over
that. If you gave it your best,and you try to make it work, and
the narcissist would not allow,there's there's no guilt and no
shame in that.
Padideh Jafari (24:01):
Yeah, I mean I would definitely agree with
that. And you know what even ifyou have to go through because I
feel like you do have to gothrough the grieving cycle John.
Yes you okay now you're divorcedfrom them but like what's the
next step? I would justencourage you, and I know you
(24:21):
probably agree, is to seektherapy and make sure that
therapist understandsnarcissistic abuse because any
therapist that we've talked to,they don't understand that. And
then also, know, work out, gofor hikes.
I know it's so difficult that wehave an episode actually about
(24:44):
that with Work
Jon McKenney (24:45):
on you.
Padideh Jafari (24:46):
Luke Holbrooke who talks about working out,
like go to the gym, go on walks,really figure out like sort of
your part in this and your andstart your healing journey. But
you have to go through thegrieving cycle. I mean that's
just don't deny yourself that.For me it took eight years.
(25:11):
Married four and a half years,knew him seven years total but
it took eight years.
People sometimes say well ittakes half of the length of time
you've been with someone. Not ifyou were with a narcissist.
Would say it takes a And I'msorry because I know you were
with her for twenty seven years.But it takes, for me it took a
(25:33):
year. Every year that I was withhim I had to spend a year of
healing.
Seven years, eight years I tookyou know separated from him and
healed before I got into a newrelationship. And so go through
that grieving process and pleasedon't talk about it to people
(25:55):
that have never been throughnarcissistic abuse because they
will not understand
Jon McKenney (25:58):
They'll never get it. Nope, you have to have been
through it.
Padideh Jafari (26:02):
And you know there are so many resources now,
free resources like YouTube,Instagram, podcasts like ours.
Really start your healingprocess for yourself and you
will realize at the end of yourhealing, which I think that
we're always healing because ofthese these people but you'll
(26:24):
realize at some point you had tolet them go or else they were
going to they were going todrown you.
Jon McKenney (26:31):
Yep. So so as you as you think about these things,
be free be free of guilt. Befree of guilt. Don't don't live
encumbered by that. That'sthat's who you were.
That's not who you are, and it'snot about your your future and
if you have questions aboutthat, reach out to us on Narc
Podcast on Instagram or Padidais at Jaafari Legal on Instagram
(26:55):
as well and I am male victims offemale narcissists on, on
Instagram too and, it's it'simportant to live your life,
guilt free. There's nothing youcould have done to have made it
work. This is the NarcissistAbuse Recovery Channel. I'm John
(27:15):
McKinney and have a wonderfulafternoon.
Voiceover (27:25):
Channel. Be sure to follow and subscribe wherever
you get your podcasts. To hearother episodes or read the
associated blogs, visitwww.narcissistabuserecoverychannel.com
and be sure to follow us onInstagram with the handled narc.
Podcast. The guest's views,thoughts, and opinions expressed
(27:46):
are their own.
The information presented is forgeneral informational purposes
only and is not intended to belegal advice. The co hosts are
not licensed therapists. Seekprofessional help as information
is often state specific. TheNarcissist Abuse Recovery
Channel is produced in studiosin California and Georgia.
I said to her, I said, I don't want to give up on
my family. And without evenmissing a beat, she said, what
family?
Voiceover (00:15):
Welcome to the Narcissist Abuse Recovery
Channel with John McKenney andPadida Jafari.
Jon McKenney (00:21):
Hi Padida how are doing today?
Padideh Jafari (00:23):
I'm doing well how are you?
Jon McKenney (00:25):
Good it's another episode of the Narcissist Abuse
Recovery Channel. How have youbeen?
Padideh Jafari (00:29):
I've been doing well, just sort of busy with the
law firm but otherwise doingwell.
Jon McKenney (00:35):
I imagine law work very definitely keeps you busy,
especially if you're in divorcelaw these days. What is it like
fifty six percent of everybodywho marries gets divorced?
Padideh Jafari (00:44):
Actually in LA County where we practice law
it's sixty two percent.
Jon McKenney (00:50):
Go figure there's a surprise.
Padideh Jafari (00:52):
And that's on the first marriage. The second
marriage is seventy two percent,and the third marriage is in the
80s. So, Oh
Jon McKenney (01:01):
my gosh.
Padideh Jafari (01:02):
Actually, divorce attorneys in LA say it
is a starter marriage. So yourfirst marriage is your starter
marriage, like you buy a starterhome, because it's almost like
no offense, but it's almost likea joke.
Jon McKenney (01:20):
Interestingly enough, both you and I are
divorced. We've not kind of madeany secret about that. We each
divorced narcissists. How longago was yours?
Padideh Jafari (01:31):
Oh my goodness. I believe fifteen years ago now.
Jon McKenney (01:37):
Was it really that long?
Padideh Jafari (01:39):
Yes. Wow.
Jon McKenney (01:41):
And mine was I'm coming up on five. So my what I
call my Freedomversary is comingup very shortly.
Padideh Jafari (01:50):
I love that freedom verse.
Jon McKenney (01:52):
Yeah, yes, I replaced. I replaced my
anniversary with a freedomversary. So the day I I got
notice that my divorce wasofficial. That is my freedom
versary day and I celebratedevery year the freedom I have
from the narcissist who was inmy life.
Padideh Jafari (02:10):
That sounds great. I think I think I will
use that. Although, it's been solong for me that I don't really
even celebrate or not celebratethat. I just feel I'm
celebrating. Will give you alittle bit of good news is I am
celebrating my third yearanniversary to my current and
(02:34):
final husband next week.
Jon McKenney (02:37):
So the starter marriage is done.
Padideh Jafari (02:39):
The starter marriage is done. Second
marriage and April 2, we'recelebrating. Wonderful. I'd
rather celebrate that than theFreedomversary.
Jon McKenney (02:50):
Yeah, I'm not remarried so I'll keep
celebrating my Freedomversary.
Padideh Jafari (02:54):
That sounds good.
Jon McKenney (02:55):
I have a question for you, something I've been
thinking about here lately.There are lot of our listeners
out there who left a narcissist,who left kids, who left family,
who left situations that wereand things that behind that were
(03:15):
important to them. And I wonderif we didn't feel some guilt for
walking away, even though wewere in a situation where we
were mentally and emotionallyabused.
Padideh Jafari (03:32):
That's a good question.
Jon McKenney (03:35):
So so and I was trying to trying to look back on
some of the things in my ownlife and and thinking thinking
back through it. And and part ofme there's a part of me. That
when I did get the message, gotthe got the email or actually
the call from my attorney whosaid, guess what? You are
(03:56):
legally divorced. I can rememberexactly where I was etched in my
mind.
I was in the gym locker room. Iwas I just finished a workout.
And I can remember hanging upthe phone and sighing and then
going and jumping up and downwith my hands in the air going,
woo hoo, woo hoo. I was so I wasso excited to be out. And then
(04:20):
it settles in, I think, what'sactually taken place in this
person who you loved or evenperhaps still love.
You can still love somebody anddivorce them. And you feel guilt
over leaving them. And I think Ifelt some guilt over that.
(04:42):
Particularly where it came tothe kids and those kinds of
things, I felt like I was nowagain I should qualify. All of
my kids were out of high school.
I waited until then to untilthey were out of high school and
into college. Two of them werealready graduated even from
college. Two were still incollege when I left, but there
(05:03):
there was this feeling. Like Iwas abandoning them to just her,
even though I had no intentionof ending relationship with them
in any kind of way. And I feltlike I had given up on something
that I wish would have workedout.
(05:26):
And I think that haunted me fora long time. I wondered if I was
a failure, I wondered if I was aquitter. And at the same time, I
was in such a bad placeemotionally. I don't Like I had
to do it to protect my own lifeall at the same time. There was
no other option.
I felt like, you know, wastwenty seven years of marriage
(05:48):
and I got to this place. I couldnot go any further and it was
the right decision like I haveabsolutely no qualms about that
either. It was the rightdecision, but there was there
was a nagging guilt over it overwhat I'd left behind. That I
think haunted me for some time,so I was wondering did you feel
(06:08):
that as well? Did you feel guiltover?
Over leaving, over yoursituation when you divorced?
Padideh Jafari (06:16):
I think it's such a great question because I
think what happens with thesenarcissists or cluster B
personality disordered people,what happens is they always sort
of attach to empaths andsympathetic people by nature.
(06:36):
Right? That's true. Very
Jon McKenney (06:38):
true. Very true.
Padideh Jafari (06:39):
And so for me, I had a tremendous amount of
guilt. Even though we did nothave children together, I did
have a stepdaughter who I loved.I was in her life for seven
years from the age of seven to14. So I didn't want to leave
(07:00):
sort of my family. And I'llnever forget this conversation I
had with my mom, who is in her90s now.
I said to her, I said, I don'twant to give up on my family.
And without even missing a beat,she said, what family? And I
(07:20):
said, what are you talkingabout? I've been with this
person for seven years. Wow.
I love him. I love mystepdaughter. And she said, your
spouse is supposed to have yourback. That's what makes them
your spouse is that they haveyour back, they're for you,
they're not working against you.And she said, family that you
(07:46):
have that you keep saying Idon't want to leave my family is
like a figment of yourimagination.
Because it's not a real family.It's you doing all the work for
him and obviously mystepdaughter, but it's not him
even showing up for you. And sheset an example of my father. She
(08:11):
said, even though your fatherand I are really different, he
has always had my back. And whenshe said that, it was sort of
like an moment for me because Ilooked back at the last seven
years of how my spouse didn'thave my back.
And so it really made me it kindof made me realize that I needed
(08:36):
to cut the cord. And Mhmm. I wasa divorce attorney at the time,
but we went to a mediator friendof mine. And know, again, we
didn't have a child, so it wasno custody issues. It was just
material things that we hadacquired.
And long story short, shedrafted the documents, but it
(08:58):
took me three years to actuallysign the final document because
I subsequently moved to New Yorkfor a number of years. I started
teaching at NYU. It wasn't apriority. And there was a sort
of this nagging thing about,well what if we get back
together? And what if God, youknow, in his infinite wisdom is
(09:22):
going to cure, this thing thatthis man has, which I didn't at
the time note was narcissism.
But what if, like I wanted togive that space. And even though
I had now moved part time to NewYork and I was bicoastal, and my
(09:45):
mom finally said to me afterthree years, like, what are you
doing? You're still attached tothis person, and you need to
finalize this. And my ex husbandwas, he said to me, he's like,
you know, I'm dating this girl.He dated this girl right after
we separated.
(10:05):
Actually, was dating herprobably while we were still
married and I'm still not Ihaven't acknowledged that in my
brain. But he said, You know,I've been dating her for three
years and she wants me to finishour divorce. Like she wants me
to do this. And I said, Okay,I'm fine. I'm ready to do it.
And so we went back to themediator friend of mine who's
(10:28):
now actually a judge in LosAngeles County, and she
finalized the documents. And twothings I asked for, and only two
things were my my engagementring and my dog, Zoe. And he
even said, well, I wantvisitation with Zoe. And I said,
okay. You know?
And that was kinda likesomething we laughed about. And
(10:50):
we signed the paper, we went tothe garage together. And I'll
never forget this, it was likehe gave me a hug and he was
like, I'm sorry. And tears inhis eyes and I'm just thinking
to myself, oh my gosh. Like, youknow, again, that was like the
guilt thing.
Like, I was happy on onerespect. On another respect, I
(11:13):
had guilt because I had beenthis person's savior, I felt
like for seven years. And thenthe other half, I was like, this
is finally freedom.
Jon McKenney (11:25):
Yeah.
Padideh Jafari (11:26):
So it was a range of emotions. And then I
gave him a hug and I said, okay,you know. And and I got in the
car and I sobbed. Not likecried, I sobbed all the way to
my mom's house. And, you know, Ihad guilt after that point of
finally signing the divorcedocument for the next two years.
(11:52):
So it took me two years to justforgive myself and you know,
forgive myself for, I don't knowwhat it is, like not being good
enough, not trying hard enough,all the things, all the
(12:12):
emotions. And then it took eightyears from the like, 02/2010
when we filed for the divorce,it took eight years before I
finally realized I'm ready tostart a real meaningful
(12:33):
relationship with someone else.So this and by the way, again,
we did not have children. So youcan imagine how much more
difficult it is for someone thathas a child that is constantly
connected to their co parentbecause of the child.
Jon McKenney (12:49):
Mhmm. That's absolutely something more to
think about. I'm fascinated bysomething you said, And it goes
back to, was it your mom thatsaid this to you? She basically
said this is not a marriage, forlack of a better phraseology.
And I think that's kind of whatgot me out of this whole idea of
(13:15):
guilt over it.
And I felt the same kinds ofthings you did as well, where it
was, you know, I don't like tolose, I didn't want to lose, I
didn't ever want to be divorced,like I didn't ever want to be a
divorced guy. Then there arereligious implications as well.
I'm a believer in Jesus Christand consider myself a Christian
(13:37):
and I'm not raised with divorceand from a religious perspective
don't believe in it as well.That also had some impact and
bearing on my situation too. ButI think the thing that got me
out was having to go back andassess what a marriage really is
(13:57):
and what a marriage really isnot.
So as thought about it, Ithought there are people in life
who enter into a legal agreementand marriage is a legal
agreement, legally bindingagreement. And as they enter
(14:18):
into this thing, there arepeople who enter into legally
binding agreements and they'renot really married. There are
people who buy a house togetherand they're not married. There
are people who have childrentogether and they're not
married. So you have a legaldocument, you have kids, you
(14:39):
have a house, you have thingstogether, And it begs the
question, what is a marriage?
What's at center of it? Andultimately, what I concluded was
this. A marriage is a loverelationship of choice where,
like you described, you arepresent for each other. And
(15:00):
that's something that waspromised upfront, and that was
something that was neverdelivered on for me. So I had it
was like it was like I had Ifelt like I had all the icing
and I had no cake.
There was no substance to it.And icing by itself was just
(15:23):
terrible. So yeah, I had ahouse. Yeah, I had kids. Yeah,
we had cars.
Yeah, we had rings. Yeah, we hadthis legal document that said we
were married. But what qualifiedit all as a marriage was
actually the relationship at thecenter. And a real marriage kind
of spins these things spin offof that. You have kids from that
(15:46):
love relationship.
You have a house from that loverelationship. You have a legal
agreement from that loverelationship. You have cars
because of that loverelationship. You have rings
because of that loverelationship. And my conclusion
was, and this will soundridiculous for a guy who was
legally married for twenty sevenyears.
(16:07):
I was legally married, but Ithink never emotionally married
in any kind of way. And to me,that's kind of the real
marriage. That's what I signedup for in the whole thing. And
by her own admission, she said,look, we were done at three
months in into the relationship.And she just kept using me and
pretending and ended there.
(16:31):
Marriage literally ended rightthere. That was the point of
discard for her where she said,Okay, I just don't want anything
to go do with this anymore.Three months in gave some lame
excuse for leaving the situationor leaving emotionally and never
returning and felt no remorseover it whatsoever. So I had to
go back and realize that mymarriage, even those first three
(16:51):
months, probably never reallywere what I thought they were. I
was attached to something thatnever really existed more than
anything else, and I felt guiltover that.
Padideh Jafari (17:01):
I think you're absolutely right. I I I'm
recalling a conversation thatJohnny Depp, was talking to
Amber Heard, and they playedthis tape. She was actually
taping him to use it against,Johnny Depp in the trial, but it
actually backfired on her. Hesaid, I never knew you. You were
(17:27):
a figment of my imagination.
You were everything I built youup to be in my mind, but in
reality, I never knew you. Andand if you if you've never heard
that audio, please go listen toit.
Jon McKenney (17:42):
Well, it just so happens that I happen to have
the quote here, and here's theexact quote from Johnny Depp. He
said this, I loved you for somany fucking years, but you know
what? You didn't exist. Youdon't exist. You're not there.
You're not there. You're afucking made up thing in my
head. Again, that's Johnny Deppin a recording that, Amber Heard
actually made a video.
Padideh Jafari (18:01):
Literally, he has so much pain in his voice.
Now whether you think, you know,Johnny Depp is a narcissist or
Amber Heard is or whateveryou're but like that is exactly
what it's like to be in arelationship and marriage with a
narcissist. You never knew them.Because if you knew
Jon McKenney (18:21):
I say no cake.
Padideh Jafari (18:22):
Yeah if you knew them, if you knew your ex wife
who she was would you have evermarried her?
Jon McKenney (18:30):
Hell no. There's no way absolutely. If I thought
it was going to go the way it'sgone, is not what I signed up
for. Who wants to go restarttheir life later on and having
to go start over from completescratch in almost every facet of
your life? This is not what Idreamed of.
Padideh Jafari (18:48):
Right. There's no question about Today the
person that I am, you knowfifteen years later after the
divorce, is so different thanwho I was the girl that you know
said I do, you know '28, '20 '9.The great thing about my ex
(19:11):
husband, who is a malignantnarcissist, is he painted this
perfect picture of what lifewould be and his devotion to me
and my family, who I'm veryclose with. As you know, I'm
Iranian. And I just fell in lovewith the story of this fairy
(19:33):
tale that never materializedbecause he was not genuinely who
he said he was.
And Well, and it's their
Jon McKenney (19:42):
it's their own fairy tale also. And they're
pretending to be somebodythey're not from the beginning.
So, is a legally bindingagreement even valid when
somebody makes ridiculousstatements or pretends
completely that something isthat it's not and you get into
this legal agreement and go,Wait a minute, this isn't right.
And those are the kinds ofthings that ultimately go to
(20:03):
court, which is divorce.
Padideh Jafari (20:06):
Right. So yeah, I think you're absolutely right
when you say there's a cake. Andthe cake looks great. Because
it's got the icing. I'm thinkingabout my wedding cake.
It's got the icing. I had a hugebow on the cake because my
second dress had a big bow onthe back and so I wanted to
match it. And like I can seethat what you're saying. Like I
(20:26):
can visualize it because I'msuch a visual person. But then
you cut into the cake and you'relike, there's nothing here but
this beautiful exterior.
And that, I think John, you justdescribed like the narcissist to
a tee. Because It's a shell.It's, and it looks so good. They
just look so good from theoutside. And that's why it's
(20:49):
also very difficult to convinceother people that there's no
depth.
There's nothing there. Theoutside, they only see the
outside the narcissist hascompletely made the outside look
so beautiful with this big bowand then you're like, but no,
(21:09):
no, no, there's nothing thereand they're abusive and they've
done this and they call me namesand they hit me. Me it was like,
you know, he was a sex addict,so it was like pornography and
physical abuse towards the end.And it's like, what are you
talking about? They didn't wannabelieve me because they're like,
it looks so good from theoutside.
Jon McKenney (21:30):
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So let's wrap this
up. Are there people out there,there are listeners who we care
deeply about, even though wedon't know them? That's why we
do this.
If you feel guilt over havingleft for whatever reason, I'd
(21:53):
say a couple of things. Fromreligious perspective, I would
tell you I don't believe Godmeant you to be abused by your
spouse emotionally or otherwise.I personally believe as well
that emotional hurts can even beworse than physical ones. Padida
and I both sat with a group ofveterans who had gone through
something like this with theirspouses, and I asked a question
(22:16):
and I said, Would you rather beshot at or would you rather go
through what you've been throughwith a narcissist? Hands went up
100% I'd rather be shot at thanhave to go through the emotional
pain of this.
I don't believe God everintended for that. Ultimately,
(22:36):
again, the emotional wounds canbe as deep or deeper than
physical wounds. And the secondpart of that is realizing what
you had or actually didn't have.Remember the narcissist was
pretending. They entered into anagreement with you of pretending
they were something that theywere not.
(23:01):
And again, as soon as you gotmarried or got involved with
him, things started to changeand they became this other kind
of person, which is arelationship of using and not
loving. And I will tell you thatonce I realized that I had I
never really had therelationship I thought I had,
and that it was all under falsepretenses from the beginning. My
(23:25):
ex was gracious in this to meand told me in front of my
pastor, Well, I never reallyloved you. So those kinds of
things help you understand andgo, Okay, well you know what?
Was fooled from the beginning.
I was duped, for that reason, Ihonored it as best I could for
as far as I could possibly gowith it, and then from then on,
(23:49):
had to end, and and there'sreally no reason for guilt over
that. If you gave it your best,and you try to make it work, and
the narcissist would not allow,there's there's no guilt and no
shame in that.
Padideh Jafari (24:01):
Yeah, I mean I would definitely agree with
that. And you know what even ifyou have to go through because I
feel like you do have to gothrough the grieving cycle John.
Yes you okay now you're divorcedfrom them but like what's the
next step? I would justencourage you, and I know you
(24:21):
probably agree, is to seektherapy and make sure that
therapist understandsnarcissistic abuse because any
therapist that we've talked to,they don't understand that. And
then also, know, work out, gofor hikes.
I know it's so difficult that wehave an episode actually about
(24:44):
that with Work
Jon McKenney (24:45):
on you.
Padideh Jafari (24:46):
Luke Holbrooke who talks about working out,
like go to the gym, go on walks,really figure out like sort of
your part in this and your andstart your healing journey. But
you have to go through thegrieving cycle. I mean that's
just don't deny yourself that.For me it took eight years.
(25:11):
Married four and a half years,knew him seven years total but
it took eight years.
People sometimes say well ittakes half of the length of time
you've been with someone. Not ifyou were with a narcissist.
Would say it takes a And I'msorry because I know you were
with her for twenty seven years.But it takes, for me it took a
(25:33):
year. Every year that I was withhim I had to spend a year of
healing.
Seven years, eight years I tookyou know separated from him and
healed before I got into a newrelationship. And so go through
that grieving process and pleasedon't talk about it to people
(25:55):
that have never been throughnarcissistic abuse because they
will not understand
Jon McKenney (25:58):
They'll never get it. Nope, you have to have been
through it.
Padideh Jafari (26:02):
And you know there are so many resources now,
free resources like YouTube,Instagram, podcasts like ours.
Really start your healingprocess for yourself and you
will realize at the end of yourhealing, which I think that
we're always healing because ofthese these people but you'll
(26:24):
realize at some point you had tolet them go or else they were
going to they were going todrown you.
Jon McKenney (26:31):
Yep. So so as you as you think about these things,
be free be free of guilt. Befree of guilt. Don't don't live
encumbered by that. That'sthat's who you were.
That's not who you are, and it'snot about your your future and
if you have questions aboutthat, reach out to us on Narc
Podcast on Instagram or Padidais at Jaafari Legal on Instagram
(26:55):
as well and I am male victims offemale narcissists on, on
Instagram too and, it's it'simportant to live your life,
guilt free. There's nothing youcould have done to have made it
work. This is the NarcissistAbuse Recovery Channel. I'm John
(27:15):
McKinney and have a wonderfulafternoon.
Voiceover (27:25):
Channel. Be sure to follow and subscribe wherever
you get your podcasts. To hearother episodes or read the
associated blogs, visitwww.narcissistabuserecoverychannel.com
and be sure to follow us onInstagram with the handled narc.
Podcast. The guest's views,thoughts, and opinions expressed
(27:46):
are their own.
The information presented is forgeneral informational purposes
only and is not intended to belegal advice. The co hosts are
not licensed therapists. Seekprofessional help as information
is often state specific. TheNarcissist Abuse Recovery
Channel is produced in studiosin California and Georgia.
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