Episode Transcript
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Jon McKenney (00:00):
My dear friend,
Padida, how are you doing today?
Padideh Jafari (00:02):
I'm doing well.
How are you?
Jon McKenney (00:04):
Good. It's Friday.
Padideh Jafari (00:05):
I know. I'm so
excited about that. I am so
happy, and I'm not working thisweekend. So I'm thrilled about
that.
Jon McKenney (00:13):
Even better. I'm
visiting some friends this
weekend, doing a littlegraduation thing, and hanging
out with their kid who justgraduated from middle school. So
I'm really excited about that.
Padideh Jafari (00:23):
Oh, that's so
cute. It's so cute when graduate
and they're that like young.
Jon McKenney (00:29):
It is. You know,
they got their whole lives ahead
of them. You know, before therug gets pulled out from
adulting.
Padideh Jafari (00:38):
Exactly.
Exactly.
Jon McKenney (00:39):
So innocent and
cute and then.
Padideh Jafari (00:42):
Right. Well,
let's not tell them that at the
graduation.
Jon McKenney (00:45):
No, no, that's not
a good graduation card, don't
think. So we've got a reallygood topic today I'm really
excited about talking about withyou today. So what do you think
about when those who are victimsof narcissistic abuse, those who
(01:06):
are basically being hurt bynarcissists, when they get
accused of actually being theabuser?
Padideh Jafari (01:15):
I think it's a
topic that's not talked about
very frequently. And that's whyI think it's important to talk
about it on our show.
Jon McKenney (01:27):
So I mean, are a
couple of different reasons. I
think that the abused actuallyget accused as being the
abusers. One of the reasons, ofcourse, is that narcissists
often flip the script. Theyaccuse you of what they're
actually doing. So that'scertainly a part of it.
(01:48):
Then there's this whole otherthing where the victim may
really be lashing out at thenarcissist pretty aggressively.
And that was kind of what I wasthinking we ought to talk about
today. The phrase for that isreactive abuse. Have you ever
been in that position?
Padideh Jafari (02:07):
Yes, I have.
Actually, two things I want to
say. The first is after many,many months of therapy, I was
called the narcissist by mynarcissist ex. And I thought, oh
my gosh. And I started to listto him all the things that I was
doing that was not narcissistic.
(02:31):
And so that was number one. Andthen number two is I did act out
at the very, very end of themarriage, which ended up in a
big huge fight and actuallyended up with him in handcuffs.
So it does happen where a niceperson can only take so much,
(02:55):
right? And you've been beatendown for so many years that you
do react. And then theinteresting part about that is
that most people don't realizethat part of it.
They take the abuser, the realabuser's side, because you've
now reacted. And you've reactedout of character.
Jon McKenney (03:16):
Well, and some of
these narcissists, right,
they're particularly the covertvariety who are kind of hidden
and back behind the scenes, takegreat pleasure in your public
appearance or your publicreputation being destroyed and
you looking like you're thenarcissist when actually you're
not. So any reactive abuse andand let's let's reactive abuse.
(03:41):
We need a definition for that.So you got a good definition for
us?
Padideh Jafari (03:45):
Yeah, let me
tell you a great definition I
think that kind of highlightswhat this means. So reactive
abuse refers to a situationwhere a victim of ongoing abuse
reacts in a way that may appearabusive themselves. This term
(04:07):
can be misleading, as it oftenlabels the victim as an abuser
when in fact they are respondingto the abuse they have endured.
It is more accurately describedas a form of self defense, where
the victim's reaction is apsychological survival mechanism
(04:29):
to protect themselves from harm.In many cases, the perpetrator
may provoke the victim to createa false narrative of mutual
abuse, complicating the dynamicsof the situation.
Jon McKenney (04:44):
And the mutual
abuse thing, right, is good for
the narcissist because, again,they don't have to deal with the
problem. Right? Well, you'redoing it too. So Correct. You
know?
So so that makes it okay. I I'mI'm okay because because you're
doing it too. And when whenultimately, reactive abuse, you
know, the it it is essentiallythe narcissist turning the
(05:07):
victim into somebody who's aridiculously angry person
usually.
Padideh Jafari (05:11):
Correct. Yes.
That's a that's a great way to
to say it.
Jon McKenney (05:16):
So I would not I
would not consider myself a
angry person, but I could withher, especially towards the end,
I could go from zero to 60 in ananosecond because of it. So so
tell me something for you andfor others. How does somebody
become one who who does reactiveabuse, who lashes out like that?
(05:39):
Because, again, out ofcharacter, I I I don't like
being angry. I don't likeraising my voice.
I I'm not prone to that. Howdoes somebody how does somebody
how do you think they becomesomebody who who delivers
reactive abuse?
Padideh Jafari (05:54):
Well, it's the
battered wife syndrome, right,
where, this happens over time,where you're trying to stay
stoic, you're You're giving themthe benefit of the doubt.
Remember, you're in arelationship with this person.
Hopefully, you're in love withthem, correct? So you're giving
them the benefit of the doubt.They're abusing you.
(06:15):
It could be covert or it couldbe overt. And so after so many
months and years and years ofevery time they screw up, you're
trying to fix it. You're tryingto mend whatever has been
broken. And they maybe go totherapy with you and the
therapist can't even see what'sgoing on. And then they continue
(06:39):
to push your buttons.
And I consider myself a very,very nice person. And I pretty
much lay down my life for myhusband and my kids and my
friends and family. But I have apoint to where if you continue
to keep pushing me
Jon McKenney (07:00):
There is a line.
Is a keep
Padideh Jafari (07:02):
abusing me, you
will basically snap. And that's
what the reactive abuse is. Youare going to snap. And before it
gets to the final straw. Sobefore you can talk yourself out
of it or before you can callsomeone and say, no, this is
(07:24):
going on, you snap.
And once you snap, that's wherethe narcissist, the real
narcissist, comes with a videocamera. They're videotaping you.
They're taking pictures. They'regoing, And they're so happy. And
you can see it because they havethis grin on their face.
They're excited that you'reshowing them this side of you
(07:48):
maybe that they've never seen.And so that's what becomes the
reactive abuse. And so you looklike the abuser. And they look
like the victim in this. Butthere's an underlying thing here
where they've created thisscenario for you to react in
(08:09):
such a way Mhmm.
That's not ordinary for you.
Jon McKenney (08:12):
So so I I think
you're absolutely correct. And
you're and and, ultimately, whenyou react like that, you're
giving them ammo to use againstyou.
Padideh Jafari (08:20):
That's
Jon McKenney (08:20):
that's that's the
harder part of this. You're
giving them you're giving themstuff that they can use against
you to destroy you publicly orprivately or in front of your
family or friends or whatever itmight be. It it's it's like, oh,
look look what he did or lookwhat look what she did. And and,
ultimately, it's it it itdoesn't help you, but it is
natural, I think. And I I youknow, in my own life, I was
(08:43):
thinking about, you know, howdid I get to that place?
How did I get to a place where Iwas that angry? Or and I and
there were there were couple ofthings that that that came to
mind. The first one is kind of avisual illustration of what I
think reactive abuse is like. Soif you had somebody who was
(09:05):
stepping on your toe with all oftheir weight, stepping on your
foot with all of their weight,and you'd give them the benefit
of doubt at first, and you go,okay. Hey.
Could you move your foot? Andthey go, what do you mean? You
go, you're standing on my foot.No. I'm not.
I'm not standing on your foot.Yes. You are. You're standing on
my foot, and it hurts. And andthey go, well, I I'm not
(09:30):
standing on your foot.
And they go, look down. You'restanding on my foot. And your
voice begins to raise a littlebit because that would be
natural. And you go, you'reyou're not standing on my foot.
I'm not standing on your foot.
I'm standing on your toe. We go,well, no, you're standing on my
on my foot and my toe happens tobe there also. In fact, so
(09:51):
please move your foot. And theygo, I don't know what you're
talking about. It's not on yourtoe.
It's on your pinky. Well,whatever it is, get your effing
foot off and finally you'reyou're you're in pain for one
thing, because it hurts. And andthen you're you've raised your
voice to a point where it'slike, I I need to get them off
(10:14):
me and then they still don't getoff you. So what's the next
thing? You push them off of you.
And then they go, he hurt me,she hurt me. When when
ultimately they were the one whodid it. So you go through this
scenario, you push them off you,and you're done with this. And
then tomorrow, the same thinghappens. And you go, you're
standing on my foot again.
What do you mean again? I didn'tever stand on your foot before
(10:36):
anyways. And it's not on therenow. Well, yes, it is. No.
It's not. And it begins toescalate again. And what happens
is it begins to escalate morequickly. So, so this is kind of
the physical, a physicalanalogy, a physical description
of, I think, what happens withreactive abuse only with a
narcissist and reactive abuse.But but only these things are
(10:59):
often emotional situations or orsituational kinds of things.
They're not necessarilyphysical. So so it's kinda like
somebody provokes you by hurtingyou, pretends it's not there,
and can gaslight you in someways that make it very difficult
as well. Like, I'm not standingon your foot. I'm standing on
(11:20):
your toe. We'll get off my toe.
Or I'm standing on your big toe.Right? We'll get off my big toe
then. Well, I'm not standing onyour big toe. I'm standing on
your little toe.
We'll get off my little toethen. I'm not standing on your
little toe. I'm standing on yourmiddle toe. Get off of it. No.
I'm just pushing your arch tothe ground on your foot. And and
this kind of stuff can drive younuts and put you in a place
(11:41):
where you go you it escalatesvery, very quickly when these
kinds of things happen. Whenyou're having to deal with this
word salad and pretending andall of that, they just they just
don't wanna deal with thereality of the situation. You're
trying to get them to deal withthe reality of the situation,
and and you're in pain. And,ultimately, the end result is a
(12:02):
a violent response eitherverbally or it can be physical
too.
What do you think about that? Doyou think that's a good analogy
of what's taking place?
Padideh Jafari (12:12):
Yeah. I mean,
don't think I've heard a better
analogy of reactive abusebecause I'm reminded of a case
that I had a couple of years agowhere it was a restraining order
case. And my client, it was arestraining order against her.
And she said, I did do thesethings. And I said to her, why
(12:37):
did you do these things?
Why did you react or behave insuch a way? And when she told me
the full story, it was exactlythis. It was like her ex husband
continually provoking her andshowing up to her house. They
were separated at the time. Theywere trying this physical
(12:58):
separation as some clients dobefore they file for divorce.
And so she finally reacts to himcoming there and coming to her
place and destroying her peace.And so she reacts. And that's
when he called 911. And thepolice showed up. And they
arrested her.
(13:19):
And so just from seeing her, Icould tell John that she was not
a violent person. She wasactually very, very calm. I
interviewed her parents as welljust to get their side of the
story because they showed up tothe house to take care of this
son when she was arrested. Andit took three court appearances,
(13:41):
but I was able to get therestraining order dismissed
because I showed the judge thatthis is the reason why my client
acted in such a way, basically.And he had said she had pushed
him and scratched his eye, butthere was no proof of that.
(14:02):
So all that to say is, yes, itcan escalate. And because you've
been abused for so many years,it's like the breaking point,
right? You just break. Andthey're continually denying it.
So they're denying the realitythat's happening.
And you're just like, no, no,no, you're being hurtful. And
(14:24):
the more they deny it, the more,as a victim, you want to prove
like, no, this is actuallyhurting. This is actually
hurting me. So it's only whenyou look at it from a different
perspective that you realize,wait a minute, they were trying
to bait you all along.
Jon McKenney (14:45):
Actually, the
denial thing is kind of where I
wanted to go with the secondone, I'm really glad you brought
that up. Because that's a hugecomponent in reactive abuse. And
again, reactive abuse, Iconsider natural. Right?
Somebody standing on your foot,you don't want them to stand on
your foot.
(15:06):
As human beings on the whole, wewant to avoid pain and chase
pleasure. So if somebody's ifsomebody's hurting you, you you
want them to stop hurting you,whether that's physical or
whether it's emotional. Goingback to the toe thing, you don't
want somebody to stand on yourtoe. You don't want somebody to
hit you. You don't want somebodyto pinch you.
(15:26):
You don't want any of thesekinds of things to happen. And
when somebody does that, yourfirst thought is, how do I get
them to stop? I don't want to bein needless pain. So the denial
component is big. Now, the partof that whole denial cycle, I
(15:47):
think, comes in trying to pursuea healthy relationship.
So in healthy relationships,there is there's always
conflict. You know, there'sthere are always conflicts to be
resolved. That's just that'sjust life. There there's no such
thing, I think, as relationshipsabsent of some kind of conflict.
(16:09):
And if they are absent ofconflict, you will find somebody
covering up mistakes.
Padideh Jafari (16:14):
Yes, absolutely.
So
Jon McKenney (16:18):
understanding that
healthy relationships do have
conflict, the question becomes,how do you how do you keep the
relationship healthy? So the wayto keep the relationship healthy
is to address conflicts, to ownyour own crap, to repent,
apologize, ask forgiveness,extend grace, extend mercy, but
(16:40):
to get the real stuff out in theopen, dealt with, resolved, and
settled. And I think the theword I'd like to use there is
closure. You want closure, andyou want an absence of of this
felt weight of conflict in ahealthy relationship at all
times, especially in the mostintimate of relationships, in
(17:03):
husband and wife or boyfriendand girlfriend, I would say also
with between parents andchildren as well. So we chase
healthy relationship.
And those of us who may beemotionally intuitive enough or
emotionally healthy enough, ifthere's a conflict or
something's gone wrong, you'vehurt somebody needlessly, you
(17:24):
wanna say it. So let's say, youknow, you're married and you
have a conflict like I have aconflict with my spouse and I
go, well, this really hurt me. Ijust want you to know what hurt
you. Well, I just told you whathurt me. Well, no, it didn't.
I didn't do that. Well, yes, youdid. You just did that. No, I
didn't. And in them, when youask a narcissist to face their
(17:47):
failings, to face the behaviorthat they've done wrong, it's
immediate denial.
Does not matter. So when you getthis denial from them, you tend
to escalate it. And I rememberwatching an episode of I Love
Lucy back in the day, whereRicky had this old friend. Her
(18:12):
name was I think it was CorlataRomero or something like that.
And Lucy was jealous of thislady because they had her
picture in the newspaper, andshe was very buxom and beautiful
and Cuban and all of that.
And she was afraid that Carlottawas going to come back and take
Ricky away. So she winds upshowing up at the apartment, and
(18:32):
she's much older. So wasactually Ricky's caretaker. So
she's you know, in her sixties,and Lucy finds this absurd. But
but Carlotta only speaksSpanish.
So she would go, well, how areyou doing? And she goes, you
know, no, and she'd she'd juststart to speak louder. How are
(18:53):
you doing? Can I get you somecoffee? And she and instead of
speaking to her in Spanish, shejust raises her voice because
she can't communicate to thislady.
And that's what it's like inreactive abuse. When you're
you're trying to communicatewith somebody who doesn't wanna
deal with the situation and allthey do is bring the denial,
(19:15):
what you tend to do is escalateit with your voice. And I would
tell my ex, excuse me, that ittakes an explosion moment to get
your attention. So you're justtrying you're trying to pursue
healthy relationship. You'retrying to to to foster an
environment of complete honestywhere resolution lives, where
(19:38):
closure lives, where intimacythrives.
And the only way to do that isto air things out and to and to
surface them in honesty and andbring them out on the table. And
if you can't do that withsomebody who who literally just
pretends constantly, you tend toraise your voice, and you tend
(20:00):
to get angrier, and you tend toget angrier. And where initially
you want to give somebody thebenefit of the doubt, and you
may go, you know, you're you'repretending, and, I'd like to to
talk about this. You go, no. Idon't know what you're talking
about.
So so you you eventually, intime, begin to escalate. You
begin to raise your voice inwhat could be called reactive
(20:22):
abuse. And the more thathappens, the more quickly you go
to just yelling because you mayas well just cut to the end.
Right? So if it's gonna take anexplosion to get you to even
respond to me, well, then let medeliver the explosion so that
you are faced with this reality,and, ultimately, it it doesn't
(20:43):
work anyways.
But but I think that's how ithappens. You know? You you just
talk louder and louder andlouder and louder. When you
can't communicate like this,like in Lucy, you just you speak
far more loudly, and,ultimately, it looks kind of
abusive, and you're destroyingyour own reputation because the
narcissist would be happy, morethan happy to tell anybody they
(21:05):
know about how how how you abusethem. In fact, I will tell you
this.
When when I first realized thatmy my ex had issues, I sent her
to a therapist and I thought,you know what? She needs to go
without me because she's gotissues she has to deal with on
her own, and I'm not sure thatmy being in the room is going to
(21:28):
help. I gave her that benefit ofthe doubt. But I am certain now
that what was actually takingplace and how the therapist was
counseling her was she wouldtell the therapist, I have just
a very angry, abusive husband,and I don't know what to do.
Padideh Jafari (21:45):
Yes, absolutely.
That's absolutely what she said.
Jon McKenney (21:48):
No, there's no
question.
Padideh Jafari (21:50):
There's no
question.
Jon McKenney (21:53):
And then the
therapist, of course, with all
rightness and all they have totake her word for where we
start. And she start, Well, whatdoes he do to you? Well, he just
yells at me needlessly. I don'tknow what's going on. He accuses
(22:14):
me of doing things that I justdon't do.
And he starts yelling at me andI don't know how to handle it.
And then again, you look likethe abusive one. And they can do
this not only with a therapist,but they can do this with your
friends. They can do this withyour family. They can do it with
anybody.
And particularly if they're acovert narcissist, where they
want to look like the saint toeverybody else in the world,
this is ultimately happening andthey're bad mouthing you because
(22:37):
they love it.
Padideh Jafari (22:38):
Right. I think
you said a couple of really good
things. Communication, Ibelieve, is so vitally important
in a relationship and especiallya marriage where you're living
together, seeing each otherthrough the good and the bad,
the ugly, everything. And youcannot communicate with a
narcissist because they justwon't let you. Like you said, if
(23:02):
you go to them and you want tosay, you know, it really hurt my
feelings that you did this,instead of sitting down with you
and saying, what did I do?
I want to make sure that I neverhurt you again. I will change
what I did or how I said it ormy tone or whatever the
situation is. With a narcissistthat just doesn't work because
(23:23):
their very first reaction is Ididn't do it. You're wrong.
You're too sensitive.
They'll resort to name calling,you know, and they'll say, you
know, this, this and this,right? Anything to deflect off
of them because in their mindthey're perfect and you are
always wrong. So thatcommunication, you're absolutely
(23:45):
right. It never works. There'sno also self reflection either.
So they're not going to look atit like there's something wrong
with them. They're going to lookat it like there's something
wrong with you, and you are justtoo sensitive. They're not about
conflict resolution. So they'renot going to take what you say
(24:07):
and say, well, let me correctwhat John is saying because A) I
love him and B) because I don'twant to be fighting with
somebody that I love. Right?
They don't think of it that way.They use that as a weakness to
use against you later. So it'sactually everything that is
(24:28):
illogical becomes illogical whenyou're in a narcissistic abusive
relationship because there's no,like you had said this before in
a different episode, there's nocoping skills, there's no
relational skills, there'snothing. And in fact, when
they're in conflict with you,they like it. They like the
(24:53):
chaos.
Remember with my ex husband, Iwas like, I just want peace.
Like I was a divorce attorney,so obviously my work was really
heavy. And I was like, I justwant peace in my house. I don't
think that's a lot to ask for.But it was a constant conflict
and chaos.
(25:14):
Even when there wasn't chaos orconflict, he would manufacture
it. And so I just realized, likeyou mentioned earlier on
pleasure, I didn't wantpleasure. I just wanted peace.
Didn't even want pleasure. Thatwas so incredibly unattainable.
I just wanted peace in my home.I wanted to know that when I
(25:36):
would come home, I would have aloving husband that just
wouldn't constantly fight withme, bring things up that would
trigger me on purpose. And whenI mean trigger me, I'm talking
about his daily pornography, hisspending money unwisely. That's
(25:58):
what I'm talking about. Soyou're absolutely right.
And when you say, how did youget to this point? This is how
seven years of being withsomeone and constantly being in
this chaotic conflict just wasthe final straw.
Jon McKenney (26:17):
That's absolutely
it. And again, reactive abuse,
natural in a sense, becauseyou're being hurt by somebody.
And imagine you were in arelationship for seven years. I
was in one for twenty seven,right? And imagine being in a
relationship that long and neverbeing able to resolve anything.
Padideh Jafari (26:40):
Correct.
Jon McKenney (26:41):
That that you want
you want angry, you want you
want conflict, you want a homewithout peace. It's and you want
also a situation where you yougo for it's like it becomes like
a switch where you just flipfrom from peaceful to rage in an
instant. You you put somebody ina situation where there's no
(27:03):
closure and no resolution fordecades and and you become that
person. The second part of it,you said you said it's illogic.
And and that's that's one of theother components to this
reactive abuse because itdoesn't make sense.
And while you're saying that, Ithought of a I thought of a
story where I was I was one day,was sitting at the dining room
(27:26):
table with my dad. We were wewere playing cards. We're card
players, when he comes around toplay a game called casino. It's
a family game. So dad and I areplaying casino and my ex came
in.
She's my wife at the time. Shesaid, hey, would you would you
like some food? And I'm like,sure, you know, kind. We'll do
(27:50):
that. Yeah.
I like some food. What would youlike? I don't know. What are you
thinking about making? She said,was thinking about making some
macaroni and cheese.
I go, That'd be great. So Isaid, Just, yeah, thank you so
much. I really appreciate thatwhenever you're ready. So she
said, okay, I'll go make it. Tenminutes passes, twenty minutes,
(28:12):
half an hour, forty fiveminutes.
Dad and I are still playingcards. Finally, I got up and I
went to the kitchen. I go, sowhat happened to the macaroni
and cheese? And she yelled atme. I'm like, hold on.
Hold on. Hold on. Hold on here.Wait a minute. You were the one
that offered to make this, andI'm just asking where it is.
(28:36):
And you're yelling at me? Again,no no logic here whatsoever.
Okay? If you follow thebreadcrumb trail, breadcrumb
trail ends with you being theproblem here. You said you were
going to do something.
You volunteered to go dosomething, And and now you're
blaming me and telling me thatthat I'm the problem and yelling
(28:56):
at me because you didn't do whatyou said you were gonna go do.
And it's constant illogic likethis that also puts you in a
position where you go from zeroto 60 in an instant and you go
from quiet, calm, collected toinstant rage in a nanosecond
because you can't handle thelack of logic in the situation.
(29:20):
It violates everything, and it'sreally difficult.
Padideh Jafari (29:24):
Right. You know,
it's it's interesting because
towards the end of myrelationship, I didn't like who
I was. I didn't like who I wasbecoming, and I didn't like who
I And my mom, I remember shewould say to me my mom and I
have always been very close. I'mthe youngest of four. And she
would always say to me, I don'teven recognize you anymore.
(29:47):
And sitting here today, fifteenyears later, it almost brings
tears to my eyes because shesaid, I don't know who you are.
You are this person's slave. Youdo everything he says. You don't
talk, so I don't know what'sgoing on with you. And you're
constantly hunched over.
(30:08):
Literally, my physical body wasconstantly hunched over because
I was just so beaten down, John,that every part of me was just
broken. And I would say to her,I don't know what you're talking
about. I have such a greatrelationship. I have a great
marriage. I have this greatstepdaughter who I love.
(30:31):
I don't know what you're talkingabout. And it was this constant
denial because I was not ready.I couldn't even articulate what
was going on. I'd never beenabused. And so it really was
that day where it was actuallyin the evening where this sort
(30:51):
of reactive abuse happened byme.
That was like the end of theend. It was like, I can no
longer do this. And with my exhusband, he was also abusive
physically, so it was all thethings. And when I came to tell
my mom months later, after weseparated and everything, she
(31:15):
said, I knew there was somethingwrong. Like, I knew there was
something wrong, but you keptsaying that you were happy.
But I could tell that physicallyyou were not well. And so you
are absolutely right. It'sreally heartbreaking, even
fifteen years. And so muchtherapy I've gone through even
(31:38):
talking about this. But I knowthat it will help our listeners,
so I'm willing to open up mysort of like the old wounds.
But it is really, reallydifficult. When you go through
reactive abuse and when you actlike that, John, it's so
contrary to how you usually arethat you won't even recognize
(32:00):
yourself.
Jon McKenney (32:02):
I you know what? I
felt I felt much the same way.
You know, the the person I wastowards the end of the marriage.
Was so kind of opposite, likewith her particularly was so
opposite of. My character andwho I and my personality, even
who I was as a person, I foundit very hard to endure just
(32:23):
because I'm like, I was tryingto like constantly trying to put
me in a, you know, square peg ina round hole, I didn't fit.
I'm just not this angry person.I don't raise my voice hardly
ever unless it's my local cablecompany and I'm trying to trying
to get my cable back on. Theypush my buttons quickly as well.
(32:44):
But
Padideh Jafari (32:45):
Yeah. I mean,
that's different because, like,
obviously, I'm a divorceattorney. I get upset. I get
angry. I get sad.
I go through all the emotions.When somebody is constantly
pointing out flaws and creatingchaos, it's like you don't even
have a minute to sit and thinkabout, how am I going to resolve
(33:07):
this issue that's now come upagain? There's constantly issues
when a narcissist is in yourlife. They thrive on the chaos.
I mean, I really want to makethis clear.
They thrive on the chaos. WhenI'm in court, I can see this
(33:28):
very clearly when I'm battling anarcissist or the narcissist's
attorney. They're constantlybringing up chaos. It's
constantly one thing afteranother after another. And
you're like, jeez, can I justput my pen down for a minute?
Can I just think about how toresolve my client's divorce and
(33:49):
get to a settlement? No, theydon't want that. They absolutely
don't want that. They like whenit's chaotic. So I really want
to emphasize that if you're inthis situation where you're
reacting and you're thinking toyourself, this is not who I am.
(34:10):
This is not my character. Thisis not how I was raised. I
wasn't raised to yell and screamand raise my voice. I wasn't
raised like this. Just know thatit's not you.
This is an emotional thingyou're going through. And your
(34:30):
self defense like you're tryingto defend yourself against this
demon, this evil person. And soyou're acting out of character.
And once you get out of thistype of situation, whether it's
a relationship, marriage,daughter, mother relationship,
(34:51):
whatever it is, once you get outof this, you will revert back to
who you really are and who Godcreated you to be, which is this
loving, caring, trustworthyperson that you were created to
be that way, but for this demonin your life.
Jon McKenney (35:13):
Let's talk about
something. So we come up with
this term reactive abuses hascome up. And here I am saying,
well, it's natural. It is, butis it abuse being delivered back
and is it appropriate? And thereality is it is kind of abuse
(35:33):
being delivered back and I thinkfor those of us who are in those
situations, we kinda need to ownthat as well that, you know, we
were rage filled.
We were angry. And that theseand not not only are these
characteristics just not good,and they make you somebody who
you're not. They're it's justnot healthy for you to be that
way. And the narcissist is goingto use it against you on top of
(35:54):
that. So so if you find yourselfin that place, the question
becomes, how do you how do youmove from there?
And I'm wondering if you haveopinions about that. I've got
some thoughts because it it'sstill abuse. Right? Abuse
delivered back. It's naturalabuse.
(36:15):
Yes. You're standing on my foot,and you push somebody out of the
way because they won't get offyour foot. And there's there's a
violence in that. So so what doyou do?
Padideh Jafari (36:26):
Yeah, I think
it's different for each person.
I think it's case by case, and Iknow that's a very lawyerly way
of saying it. But I cannot tellyou when it's appropriate for
you to leave. I cannot do that,right? Because everybody comes
from a different type ofbackground.
(36:46):
Everybody is sort of in thisabusive relationship with their
narcissist. And I tell myclients this all the time, John,
because they tell me, I don'tknow if I'm ready. I just came
in for a consultation. I justcame to strategize with you. And
I always tell them, I cannotanswer that question for you.
I just would hope that you woulddo it sooner rather than later
(37:09):
because I know what can happenlater, right? You could die. You
could die of stress and anxiety.You can be killed by the
narcissist. I mean, there's somany things.
You could be further alienatedfrom your child. Your child is
witnessing this abusiverelationship in the home.
(37:30):
There's so many negatives tostaying with a narcissist. But I
don't know when that moment ofrealization is where you need to
get out. I can just speak formyself that it was seven years.
It wasn't always abusive. Itwasn't everyday abuse. But the
abuse was very dramatic. And itwas very difficult towards the
(37:55):
end of our relationship becausemy my ex husband had cheated.
And I took him back, which is anabsolute no no, by the way, if
your spouse is cheating on you.
To me, that's a full stop. But Itook him back because I thought
he was truly repentant. Andthose nine months when I took
(38:15):
him back after that cheating,that's when it got worse. It did
not get better. He felt like,Okay, this was sort of like his
carte blanche to do whatever hewanted.
Because if he cheats on you andyou take him back, then he can
do whatever. And so really, thatlast nine months was when the
(38:36):
physical abuse happened. And Ijust knew I was kind of
planning, strategizing, how do Iget out one foot in, one foot
out. And then the last incidentfor me was when he gave me a
concussion. And I had separatedour rooms.
(38:57):
I'd put a lock on it and had thelocksmith come and put a lock on
my bedroom door. And he brokethrough it. And so the night
that he broke through it, I justknew, Okay, he's either going to
kill me or something really badis going to happen. And, I was
able to run out of my bedroom,get the keys, and run downstairs
and call 911. And seven policeofficers showed up that night.
(39:25):
He subsequently got arrested. SoI can just tell you that it was
seven years of abuse. So I don'tknow. I don't know what to say
about this, because I really dothink it depends on the person.
But I would just say that you'renot alone.
(39:48):
There are people that willbelieve you. It's not everybody.
Everybody's not going to believeyou. But some people will
believe you. And there is helpout there.
I'm highly involved with a placecalled Laura's House in Orange
County. They help domesticviolence victims become
(40:09):
survivors. And so there is morehelp than there was twenty two
years when I started mypractice. But I would just say
that you really need to sit downand reflect on when are you
ready to get out of this abusiverelationship.
Jon McKenney (40:27):
Well, that's the
end result, we all know that, of
a relationship quote unquotewith a narcissist. I mean,
ultimately they don't work andclearly we can't make those
kinds of decisions. But at thesame time, there are going to be
places where you have tointeract with this person, where
they're going to continue togaslight you. There are a group
(40:50):
of people out there who can'tleave right now because of
children. You know, it's notthey they know it's not all
about them.
And and they would rather takethe bullet themselves with their
spouse than leave the kids tosomebody who's emotionally
mismanaged. And there has to beanother solution. And we talk
(41:10):
about something called gray rockin narcissistic abuse also. And
the analogy is where you kind ofrespond like a rock. You just
kind you don't lash out.
You don't emote in any kind ofway. You're flat. You're
monotone. You don't challengethem. And my last two years, my
(41:33):
last two years, I was able to dothis in my relationship with my
ex.
I was not I wanted to wait untilmy kids got all of them were in
college before I left. And I didthat intentionally out of love
for them. And unfortunately orfortunately, I was able to kind
(41:56):
of go figure this out. And thishappened in a conversation with
my therapist. She I was I wasdoing the kind of stuff I
thought a husband should do.
You know, your spouse is offcourse, you want to go say,
Okay, you know what? You're offcourse. And I can remember
sitting in a therapy session andtelling her about some of these
conversations. And again, theseconversations were ridiculously
(42:18):
heated because they wereexplosion moment conversations
going, this is happening. She'sgoing, no, it's not.
It's not happening. No, it'snot. It's not happening. And I
just yell until she paidattention to it because I wanted
her to pay attention to it. So Iremember my therapist, Bridget.
And she said, I have a questionfor you. You tell me about these
conversations, you're telling meabout these conflicts, conflict
(42:38):
isn't being resolved. And I wantyou to think back on these
conversations for a minute. Shesaid, can you point back to a
single conversation that you hadwith her where you were able to
help her understand or where youwere able to get a good result.
(43:03):
And I can remember sitting backand just thinking for a second.
It was quiet. And I go, No, notone. And she looked at me and
she goes, then stop having theseconversations. If they don't go
anywhere, if you've got twentyfive years of this and there
hasn't been a single resolution,there hasn't been any conflict
(43:25):
resolved, all it has beenpretended away, then stop having
these conversations. And that'spart of the key to if you're in
a situation where you have to gobe with somebody like that, stop
having these conversations.
And if you are forced to asituation where you have to
where you're you're dragged intoa conversation like this, you
(43:48):
can be sometimes you act grayrock, you're emotionally
disconnected. It's very hard togo do. I was able to do it the
last couple of years. In in asense, it almost felt like being
single in a marriage, which isbizarre. It's a very weird way
to kinda feel where you decide,alright.
I'm going to emotionallydisconnect from this person and
(44:11):
nothing they say is going tophase me. And I would respond
flatline. I'd respond monotone.And ultimately, that was better
for me. And I flat out told herI was going to do it.
There was a night I just said,look, we're not going to be
close. Just so you know, I'vemade every effort. I've done
everything I know to go do totry to be close to you. So I'm
done trying. And I declared itto her and and lived it out for
(44:35):
the following two years beforewe divorced.
But it was it was better. Is ita marriage? No. Is it a
relationship? No.
Is it not heeded? Yes. Does itresolve conflict? Oh, hell no.
It doesn't.
In fact, what you have to do iskind of suck it up and go, all
right, it is what it is. There'sno way for me to go change that.
(44:59):
And that's all there is to it.So going gray rock, if you're in
a relationship, can help. Andand in gray rock is just
completely emotional,emotionally disconnecting and
not delivering any emotion tothat person for their bad
behavior.
Padideh Jafari (45:19):
Right. I think
once you stop fighting for the
marriage, then it's alreadyover. But I understand your
strategic way that you did itfor your children's sake,
because you four children.Sometimes that is absolutely the
(45:39):
correct way to do it. I'm justthinking
Jon McKenney (45:42):
Well, some people
don't have choices, right? Some
people don't have choices. Sothey've got little kids they're
committed to, and they wouldsacrifice themselves over the
kids. Some are in financialsituations where they can't get
out immediately or they'reworking a plan or a strategy to
try to get out. And that takestime as well.
So so there are a group ofpeople who have to figure out
(46:05):
how to go interact with thesenarcissists and not be seen as
the reactive abuser. There arethere are spouses out there who
are divorced, who who still haveto co parent with a narcissist
and not act out like this. Thereare there are spouses of of
husbands, wives of husbands whowere narcissistically abused,
(46:29):
and they have to learn how hownot to to lash out and not to
reactively abuse towards thesethese people. So I mean, just
because you get out doesn'tdoesn't mean the reactive abuse
necessarily ends. You have tofigure this out at some point in
time how to how to deal withthis narcissist because you are
going to have to interact withthem again.
Now, I'm in a situation whereall my kids are out of the house
(46:50):
and I don't I don't really haveany contact or any conversation
with her whatsoever. But therewill be weddings one day. There
will be family things that Ihave to be at that, you know,
where we have to interact and Iand again practiced. It's you
got to just completelyemotionally disconnect and
communicate in a way that youdon't emote.
Padideh Jafari (47:13):
Right. And you
don't take the bait, right? You
don't take the bait.
Jon McKenney (47:16):
Oh, yeah.
Padideh Jafari (47:17):
You know they're
going to say something to try
and trigger you. But the moreand more and more therapy you
have and the more selfreflection you have and the more
journaling you do, and healingand recovery, you will realize
that this is not about you. Thisis about them and their mental
disease and disorder, and thatyou have to just, like John
(47:40):
said, just keep it moving. Anddo not take anything personal.
And they will do it to everyvictim.
Every person in their life, theywill do this to. So you're
absolutely right. That's greatadvice. I just think that this
is such an important topicbecause
Jon McKenney (48:00):
Really is.
Padideh Jafari (48:01):
As we're talking
about narcissistic recovery,
this is part of the recoveryphase that you forgive yourself
for acting out of character whenyou know you would not do that
normally. And I have to tellyou, it took me years to forgive
myself. Because as a Christianwoman, I was like, did I make
(48:23):
this happen? Did I do somethingfor this person to react? Was it
Okay that I called policeofficers that night?
It took me so many years, John,just to forgive myself for the
reactive abuse that happened onetime in seven years. So you do
(48:44):
need to forgive yourself becausethat's part of the healing and
recovery portion so that yourealize, you know what? I'm not
that person. So that's sort ofwhat I want to say imparting
that you need to forgiveyourself for how you behaved.
Jon McKenney (49:03):
You know, you did
more than you did more than
forgive yourself in this. Andand the other thing that I think
you did in this that was soimportant was that you owned it.
You owned where you were. Youowned your piece of this. And
reactive abuses is something Ithink that for your own health,
(49:25):
for your own own emotionalwell-being, you need to own.
Okay. Well, this this is how Iresponded. I can remember going
in to have a conversation withmy pastor, with my ex one time,
he said, Well, why are you here?And my first words out of my
mouth, I'm angry. I just startedwith that.
(49:46):
And it's good for you to ownwhere you're at and to own your
own situation so that you canheal, too. I think there's
healing. There's not completehealing until you own your own
situation as well. And no, it'snot healthy. No, it helps you.
No, it doesn't help you. Yes,it's natural. But that's not an
excuse either. You know,ultimately, you want to be a
(50:09):
people of peace. We all want tobe people of peace, hopefully,
and I want to respond in such away that's peaceful and at least
chase peaceful solutionswherever possible.
Unfortunately, with narcissisticabuse, that's not always it's
just not always possible. Butthe reality is you have to own
your own shit as well. And likePadeeta said, forgive yourself.
(50:34):
And if you can find it inyourself to begin to practice
not not lashing out and notresponding and practice this
gray rock emotional disconnect.So good conversation today,
Padeeta.
Padideh Jafari (50:48):
Yes, thank you
so much. I really hope that it
helps our listeners.
Jon McKenney (50:52):
I hope so too. You
know, because this is this is a
very difficult topic, and, somany of us, have been through it
or are going through it. It itreally is helpful to to be able
to go try and and understandthese things together. So we
hope you have a wonderful dayand that you've enjoyed the time
with us. You can find us onlineat the
(51:15):
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