The Hidden Struggles of Men in Abusive Relationships with Narcissists - Episode 302 - The Narcissist Abuse Recovery Channel

Episode Transcript
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Voiceover (00:06):
Voiceover
to break the chain. A caringheart, a guiding light, lead us
through the darkest night. Withpreservation in our soul, we'll
rescue those who've lostcontrol, escape the grip of a
narcissist on our journey torecovery bliss.

Jon McKenney (00:24):
Padideh, this is the first time that we've not
recorded from opposite sides ofThe United States.

Padideh Jafari (00:30):
I know. It's great to have you in Cali, my
hometown.

To be here.

Yes.

And, we had our podcast launch party last night,
and that was just amazing. Wewere at Firefly. Met some people
who actually follow us, which isreally fantastic, and, some
potential collaboration, whichis even better.

Yeah. You know, it's funny is halfway through
the evening, these these twocouples come up to us, and they
said that they both hadnarcissistic abusive
relationships. Yeah. And theywanted our information.

Yeah. In fact, if they saw the poster that that we
had, this one right here. Yeah.It was it was this one here,
right, that we had set out. Andthey go, I don't know.
I didn't know anybody ever didpodcast stuff on that. And we're
like, wow. And then she went togo a lady went to go, message me
in Instagram. She's alreadyfollowing me. So it was kind of
fun.

Yeah. That's amazing. I mean, I remember I
had been drinking too much lastnight, and I said, you go talk
to them. I remember that. That'sexactly

we were talking about that on the way over, and,
we said, you know what? I thinkthat I think that Padida wanted
me to do it because she she'dhad a head start on the alcohol
before

me. Tipsy. Yes.

Yes. Or tispy. That's what we say sometimes.
Yes. So so today's topic's gonnabe kinda fun.
We wanna talk about male victimsof narcissistic abuse. Yes. What
do you think about that?

Well, I think I am sitting with the king that
invented that. I do think

it might as He

has a you have, not he. You have a IG called
male victims of femalenarcissists, and that's how we
met.

It is. And do know why I created the channel? So
when, most of you who've beenfollowing know my know my
backstory, but if you you youdon't, just real real briefly. I
was married to a femalenarcissist for twenty seven
years. And, the diagnosedvariety, I had her diagnosed by
a therapist as well, which iskind of unusual, but in turn of
events made that happen too.

(02:31):
And as I started to try to heal,I started to read books and
things, and the overwhelmingmajority of the material, I
would say 95% or better of it,was written by women about men.
Men were the only narcissists onthe planet. And there were some
things that I felt like Icouldn't connect with in what I

(02:53):
was reading. A man wouldapproach it differently from a
woman than a woman mightapproach it from a man. So
that's why I actually started mychannel to kinda kinda give an
equal voice to men who were whowere clearly enduring it as
well.

Right. But you never thought that you'd have
over 10,000 followers. Right?

No. I in fact, no. Not at all. I started the thing.
It was almost therapeutic for meto try and get out of my head
some of the stuff that that Ithought was rattling around in
there.
And I thought, oh, okay. Maybemaybe it'll it'll help some
other people who are goingthrough it validate. And here we
are a couple years later and10,000 plus followers in a

(03:33):
podcast with you and met someamazing people online who are in
the same space. And it's it'sbeen an incredible journey.
Interestingly enough, half of myfollowers are women.

Yeah. I always find that fascinating because
how does that actually happenthat women are now following you
as a male victims of femalenarcissists?

Do you know what they they see? They see the men
in their lives being abused. Sothe the average person, the
average female who who followsme either has a husband in a
second marriage. They're they'vethey've married a husband who
was married prior, and the thathusband is still being abused by

(04:15):
their their ex.

Oh, I know that. I can share a story about that.
Go ahead.

Okay. Well, go ahead. No.

You're No. I mean, my my current my current
and final husband. Last one.Last one. He's the last one.

This is it.

This is it. Well, it's funny because on
TikTok, they have this thing nowwhere women are filming their
husbands and they're saying, mycurrent husband, my current
husband. And the guy's like,what do you mean current
husband? What are you talkingabout? But they're filming it,
and you could see the guy'sreaction.
But no. Seriously. My lasthusband ever in the entire world
so his wife his ex wife is acovert narcissist.

Mhmm.

And I know exactly what you mean. So, like,
when I met him, I said, show meyour divorce documents. I wanna
see them. I wanna see what she'ssaying about you. Right?
And I mean, obviously, as adivorce attorney, I'm thinking
like, okay, is this guy thatawful? Right? So I'm reading the
divorce documents and I'm going,the person that she's describing

(05:15):
is not the person I'm falling inlove with. And so through that
journey, was like, I didn't evenknow about narcissism. That's
how crazy it was.
I learned it as a result ofwitnessing what he was going
through. And I said one day,said, you know what? This they
keep talking about narcissistsnarcissists on social media. So

(05:36):
I started to research it. Sothat's why I say, for me,
narcissism is only six yearsold, and it's as a result of my
husband.

Right. And and you didn't even realize at the time
you divorced that you weremarried to a narcissist at all.

No. But he was a malignant narcissist. And I the
word narcissist I had heardbecause with my ex husband, his
ex wife had a book called how todeal with a narcissist, and he
told me about it. So he's like,you know, when I was divorcing
my first wife, she had a bookabout can you believe she thinks
I'm a narcissist? And I waslike, I didn't even know what

(06:14):
that was.
Yeah. And I was like, oh, well,you know, I'm your savior. It's
gonna be different with me. Youknow? I mean, I love you
unconditionally.
And so but it didn't reallyclick until I met my husband

Mhmm.

Six years ago that I was like, wait a minute.
There's something really wronghere because the person in these
documents that she's describingis not the person I'm falling in
love with.

And this ex of your husband's is still trying
to abuse him financially in inother kind of ways.

Right. So we were talking, last night, you
and I, with my husband becauseyou're here in the flesh. So we
get to talk to you about a lotof things that we don't normally
get to talk to you about. Butwhen we went to our our second
son's graduation in May, hegraduated from Wisconsin
Madison. Mhmm.
You know, I was really, really,really hesitant. And for about a

(07:10):
month, I was having extremeanxiety. And I couldn't sleep.
And I was thinking, we're gonnasee his ex wife. You know,
obviously, that's the motherRight.
Of the children.

Voiceover (07:21):
Sure.

And so I was like, how do we kinda navigate
this? And my husband was like,could you just relax? Could you
just just do me a favor and justrelax? Maybe we won't see her.
And I'm like, no.
I know something's gonna happen,and I'm very intuitive. You know
that Mhmm. About me.

Absolutely.

So long story short, we couldn't sit with our
kids, our other two kids duringthe graduation, but we invited
her to go to lunch with us. Andeverything was great, John.
Like, everything was great.Like, we were sitting. We were
talking.
We were laughing with her. Ioffered to buy her a drink, the
whole thing. And then that wason a Saturday. On Sunday night,

(08:01):
she wrote my husband an email,sent it to our youngest son
who's 21 years old and said, youowe me $52,000. And my husband

$52?

Yeah. And my husband, like, thank God he
didn't tell me because we wereon we were, like, literally at
the airport coming back toCalifornia. And so the next
morning, I could just tell

somebody receipts, by the way. Just Yeah. Hey, by
the way, here here, send me sendme $52.

And so the next morning, I said, what's wrong?
You know, everything went wentso well. Like, it was so he
goes, I gotta tell yousomething. And I said, what? He
goes, she sent an email throughour son asking for $52,000.
And they said, what receipts?Those are receipts. You know,
I'm thinking, like, did we misssomething? Did, you know, did
you not pay her for something?And and I was like, what?

(08:52):
He's like, no. There wasnothing. She just said, you
know, it was nice to see you.Here's you know, you owe 52,000
52 it's only a 5,200. I'd belike, here's a check for 5,200,
but $52,000.

Unbelievable.

So I'm still sort of dealing with that, and
I've got one more year when theyoungest graduates, then
hopefully, we'll get

Hopefully, you're done. Yeah. Well, mean, is the
kind of thing that I'm talkingabout and why women follow me.
They see the abuse that theirhusbands get. And, of course,
they're tied to their husband,and they they wanna know how to
go deal with it.
And and and your husband becauseI I know John, he he does he he
handles her and his situationvery, very well. He doesn't let

(09:38):
it get to him, which is Right.Fantastic.

Well, he's no contact too.

Yeah. So there are other people who do not handle
it so well, and and the thewives see the husbands getting
abused, and they they wanna knowhow to go deal with these female
narcissists. The other the otherMO of people who follow me,
women who follow me, are arewomen whose sons are being
abused, and they're crushed overwhat's taken place. A lot of the

(10:05):
a lot of the women who reach outto me, and they it's always so
sweet. They ask if they canfollow, and I'm like,
absolutely, you can follow.
Nobody nobody should be abused.I'm trying to shine a light on
men and female narcissism, andand absolutely you fit in here.
But in in in most of thesituations, their sons have
married a female narcissist, andthe female narcissist has done

(10:28):
everything they can possibly doto make life difficult for the
parent, particularly the mother.

Yes.

And and is abusing the mother through the son.
Oftentimes, you'll find a femalenarcissist married to one of
these sons encourages the son tonot communicate.

Yes. So I had that situation. I was I was we
were recently had a spa day inin a resort, actually in San
Diego called, I think it'sAviala or something. Mhmm. And
so I was getting a pedicure, andthe lady mentioned this.
She she was, you know, what doyou do? You know, they always
kinda talk. And and I said, oh,I'm an attorney. You know? And I

(11:09):
always say, you know, I'velaunched a podcast.
You know? And she said, what'sthe podcast about? And I said,
you're narcissist. And she'slike, oh my gosh. They seem to
be so prevalent these days.
She goes, you know what? I needto talk to you about something.
And I was like, oh, god. Justlet me relax. Like, you know
because, like, whenever you sayyou're a divorce attorney,
people either wanna tell youabout their divorce or they're

(11:31):
getting divorced.
And you're just like, please,for the love of god, like, I
don't wanna have thisconversation. So she said that
her son was married to anarcissist. So she believed that
he was married to a narcissist.And I said, give me some
examples. And two things that Idid, I said, to follow you for
male victims of femalenarcissist.

(11:51):
And then I said, the secondthing was listen to the podcast.
Right. And she was so grateful.I think I texted you and I said,
I we got a new listener becauseshe was so thankful, but by the
end of it, she was in tears.

Mhmm.

She's like, my son like, this woman came into
his life. My son is you know,they always say how good
looking. Right? Their theirchild is like tall, good
looking, blah blah blah. Itlooks like Chris Helmsworth.
I was like, Chris Helmsworth.Let me see a picture. You know?
She, like, shows me pictures.And by the way, she's doing my
pedicure during this time.

(12:25):
And so she's like, you you know,he she she got pregnant right
away, married right away,pregnant right away, blah blah
blah blah blah. And she was intears. She's like, I have no
relationship with my son andneither does his sister, my my
daughter. And, she said, but I'mdefinitely gonna listen to your
podcast. And she's like, what doI do?
And I said, this you need torealize this is his journey. And

(12:49):
the more you you talk bad abouther, the more he's gonna cling
to her because he's traumabonded to her. And now she's
pregnant. So, I said, you needto just kind of this is this is
your road. Yeah.
And that that's not your road.Right? And I said, but I will
tell you, just be strong forwhen he comes back. Yep. Because

(13:12):
he's gonna come back whetherit's two, three, five kids down
the road, he's coming back.

Yep. And that's ultimately what you kinda have
to hope for is that these thesesons or, you know, see clearly
what's taking place. Becauseoftentimes, the mothers describe
their son as having been veryloving and them and them having
been very close to them, andthen they meet this woman who
basically turns turns themagainst their own mother, and,

(13:40):
and it's like the son takes onan almost different kind of
personality and starts thisabuse of the the mother, or
removes themself completely fromrelationship with a mother, or
they get dragged across TheUnited States or across the
world or wherever it might be bythis person, and there's they're
controlled. But I don't think II don't think on the whole that

(14:01):
people understand how often menare abused by narcissistic
women, by female narcissists,whether it's a mother, whether
it's a spouse, usually a spouseor that is the most common. And
there there are some reasons forthat, I think.
One one of the reasons I thinkthat that that men kinda kinda
don't measure up in all of thisand most of the the material is

(14:24):
written by women is that is thatthat men tend to be when they're
narcissists, they tend to bemore overt narcissists or what
we call malignant narcissists.And those are the kinds that you
can spot from across the room.So they tend to be rather
aggressive and, and can be nastyand physical. And and that's

(14:45):
that's the typical MO of of amale narcissist where where
women kinda fly under the radar.They're they tend more towards
the covert narcissist type, andand they'll do anything to kinda
protect their image where thethe a malignant narcissist kinda
just doesn't care.
You know? They'll kinda lash outat everybody and everybody
around them. There's this thisgroup of people around them that

(15:06):
know that that that a male is isa narcissist or know that
there's a problem if they don'tknow it's narcissism. When it's
a female, oftentimes, they theyprotect their image above all
else. And the men, because he'skind of being privately abused,
kinda looks like the crazy one.

(15:27):
So he may act out aggressivelytowards the covert narcissist
who's lying and gaslighting andhas no empathy for him
whatsoever and uses him or orfinancially abuses him like in
your particular situation. Thethe the women are doing this
behind the scenes, and and he'sacting out or lashing out and

(15:48):
and it makes him look like thecrazy one instead.

Yeah. And, you know, I just wanna say as a
woman, there are covert femalenarcissists. Like, we need to
acknowledge that as a societyMhmm. Because I feel like when
it comes to abuse of men I mean,listen. I'm obviously married,
happily married.

(16:11):
I've I grew up with twobrothers. I had a great father.
I'm telling you that women doabuse men. And they I don't know
if it's fifty fifty. I don'tknow if it's

Well, talk talk about your experience, though. I
mean, you've you work in circleswith narcissists, And you've
you've spoken to me some thingsabout that, about kind of women
versus men. What what would yousay about that? Like, from your
personal experience?

Yeah. From my personal experience, I've, you
know, had clients that were menthat were abused by female
narcissists, you know. And itwas interesting this one story,
you know, obviously, I can'tdiscuss anything confidential.
But many years ago, somebodycame to me and he said, you
know, I cheated on my wife. Andhe was really, like, eager to

(17:00):
tell me that.
As a divorce attorney, you'realmost like they're priest
because they're just

like gotta hear it all.

You gotta hear it all. And you want to hear it
all because you wanna make sureif there's something really bad,
you're, like, plugging that holeright away. Right? Either you're
disclosing it to opposingcounsel right away. Thankfully,
in California, it's a no faultstate.

Right.

Although some people don't like that. They
think it should be like Georgiathat is fault, you know, based.
So anyway, he said, you know, Icheated on her, and I just it's
really important that you knowthat. And I'm like, okay. So he
starts talking to me.

At least it's honest. Right?

Yeah. Nothing else. And I was like, okay.
Great. Next topic.
You know? Because I'm like,that's it's no fault. And he
said, the reason it's importantfor me to tell you that is
because I was abused for fifteenyears by this woman. And I knew
that the only way to get out ofthe marriage is to cheat.

I've heard that before.

And I was like, that like shocked me. I said,
what? I've never heard thatbefore. He goes, no. No.
No. She was not going to let mego.

And by the way, we don't necessarily recommend that
as a strategy to go leave yournarcissist or anybody Right. For
that matter.

Unless I cheated which, you know, kind of like
her ego was damaged Right.

At that

point, which we know that narcissists have big
egos. And so he said, but now Ihave to give her everything in
order to actually get rid ofher. And so I said, okay. Are
you ready to do that? Give herthe house.
Give her the kids. Give he'slike, absolutely. Mhmm.
Otherwise, if I don't continuethis, like, relationship that I

(18:37):
have on this side that I'mreally not even interested in,
but for getting my my wife out.So he literally signed all the
documents to give her everythingand move on with his life and
peace.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that happens. They're
they're so I I I think that thatthat men have this tolerance
also, you know, that that thatmen are expected to take some
abuse from women. You know, I Ias I started venturing into this
male victims of femalenarcissist space, I started to

(19:10):
talk to some people who are menwhose marriages I respected, and
I was shocked.
And I mean shocked at the numberof men who said they'd taken a
punch from their wife.

A physical punch?

Physical punch.

Wow.

Like, are you out of your mind? This this
happened? You you have such agreat marriage. And and even in
good marriages, this kind ofstuff happens. So I think that I
think that men in some respectsare expected to take the abuse.
And if they don't take theabuse, they're seen as not
masculine.

That's crazy. I never thought about that.

It is crazy. So so to just acknowledge for a man to
acknowledge that he's beingabused is a shot much less from
a woman is a shot personally tohis own seemingly so is a shot
to his own personal masculinity.So so men don't even acknowledge
the abuse well. There was a alady I met on Instagram when I
first kinda joined, and a dear,dear woman. Her her name is

(20:09):
doctor Retha Stewart.
And, Retha, if you're listeningout there, you really helped me
in many ways when we weconversed back then. But she was
working on, I think it was herPhD, if I'm not mistaken. She's
a doctor. And, and she was doingresearch on how men perceive
abuse. And and through herresearch, she discovered that

(20:31):
men could not even easily justembrace the word.
Abuse. Abuse. Like, to say thata man for a man to acknowledge
that he's abused is very, verydifficult. And, and we we were
trying to come up together withsome language that that we felt
resonated. And the the languagewe we felt resonated that men

(20:52):
could identify with wasundeserved cruelty.
Are you be are you experiencingundeserved cruelty from
somebody?

You've said that before. I think that's such a
great way to frame it for men.Because I know with my husband,
he doesn't want to acknowledgethat he was fooled and duped and
abused. Like, those words youcannot like, you know my
husband's very very even keeled.Absolutely.
He's very stoic. If you tell himthat, if you say, you you know,

(21:22):
she fooled you. You know, sheabused you. He gets really upset
because that that speaks to hismasculinity.

Yep. Absolutely. Absolutely. And and if if
somebody acknowledges that, theysee themselves as as less than a
man, they feel like they've notbeen able to go manage their
their marriage or their theirfamily, and and it makes them
feel less than. So so to so forthem to acknowledge it
themselves is hard, much lesshaving the rest of the world

(21:49):
acknowledge that men have beenabused also in in in
particularly in recent yearswith the Me Too movement and
things like that.
It seems like people attachbelief to a woman's statement
immediately and and discard aman's. I know I experienced that
even in my own home church. Whenthey found out I was divorcing,
my ex got all of the attention,and and and they listened to her

(22:14):
story. And and in fact, I foundthat she'd been kinda seeing the
at least one of the pastorsbehind the scenes for years
saying, god knows what. And thenwhen when I pulled the the the
trigger and and and divorced,they wouldn't even talk to me.
Like, I I I I asked, theyinstead of actually having a
conversation with me, they sentme some nasty emails telling me

(22:36):
that basically I was going tohell. And and and and I said,
hey, well, know, I'd be happy tomeet with you and sit down and
have a conversation. They wouldnot even entertain the
conversation with me to findlike, you know, in in again, my
my ex had some issues where shewas kind of pretending she had
cancer and she had an emotionalobsession, with an ex boyfriend.

(23:01):
And and they're not interestedin these things. So so I
couldn't even get a hearing frompeople who should care.
And in fact, that was the storyacross the board. They found out
I was divorced. Didn't wannahear about nobody wanted to hear
about it. Where she could havethe conversation, she could talk

(23:22):
about it and did talk about itto other people. I was not even
permitted to have theconversation at all.

Right. And and it's like, you know, with your
situation and my my husband's,it's like, oh, a single mom of
three, a single mom of four.Like, how dare he? How dare he
do this? They are not concernedabout him and his story

Correct.

Of abuse. They're just as a society,
that's why I'm saying we need todo better, and we need to at
least give a voice to each side.Like, I will be honest with you.
We have, these really goodfriends of ours. They're they're
filing for divorce.
And so I was like, I'm notrepresenting either because I
love them both. Obviously, she'sa little bit more my friend, and

(24:07):
the man is a little bit morefriends with with my husband.
They play golf. And so I wannayou know, when she says things,
I wanna, like, unless I canverify with him that she what
she say is accurate, I have noplace for it. Right?
I'm like, I'm just hearing yourside of the story. It's like the
person that goes to court andtalks first, the judge is like

(24:29):
shaking their head. They'relike, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Sounds good.

Talks first thing is a big deal. You tend to you
tend to believe what you firsthear.

Right. And then you the second person or the
opposing person that talks,they're like, oh, really? And,
like, the first person left outa lot of things. Right? So my
strategy in court, for anyonelistening, is let the other
person speak first.
I wanna know like, I jot down,okay, what are they saying? What
are their arguments? Okay. Andthen I come in with the truth.

(24:57):
Mhmm.
Especially when you're dealingwith a narcissist in court, you
know, a lot of the things arefabricated. Yeah. So you can
have, like, physical evidence insort of your binder to show,
like, this is all lies. Theseare fabrications, and they're
gross fabrications. These arenot little lies, by the way,
that narcissists tell in court.
So they're trying to get garnersympathy and, you know, a

(25:22):
different narrative than thetruth because the truth is

Correct.

They suck at marriage.

Absolutely. And where where I think that if if
people had heard my story or oror cared to hear it, right, they
would have gone, okay.Pretending she had cancer? And
mostly, when, you know, you gettired of kind of explaining
when, you know, people find outthat you're divorced initially,
particularly upfront. You'redivorced?

(25:49):
Why? And what I tried to do iskind of dumb it down to the the
since I didn't wanna have a lotof conversation about it, dumb
it down to the most ridiculousthing. Well, she's kinda
pretending she had cancer. Theygo, what? Yeah.
That was kinda the highlight.You know? So end of
conversation, they go, oh, wow.And and and and and ultimately,

(26:10):
the kinds of things Iexperienced, the abusive things
I I kind of experienced werewere so bad that, I mean, I was
in a position where I was, youknow, I I was praying that God
would take my life. I mean, wasit was that bad.
You know, two death do us part,and I used to pray, God, I'm
ready to go. Because I didn't Ididn't wanna I didn't wanna
divorce. And at the same time, Iknew I couldn't stay in this

(26:33):
thing and survive. It was reallyan act of of self preservation
to to divorce. I I in fact, Idon't believe in divorce.
I I don't recommend divorcenecessarily either. But I found
that I was in a position where II just had no choice. And and
people weren't listening to me.And and it made it very, very

(26:56):
difficult. And through theprocess also, you know, I'm glad
to hear that you you're like, II wanna hear both sides of the
thing.

Absolutely. Yes. Absolutely. And you know what's
interesting? We talk so muchabout my my older mom.
Right? My elderly mom on thispodcast. She's always told us
growing up. She said, there'salways two sides to a story when
it comes to a husband and wife,and nobody knows the truth
unless you lived with theminside the house.

100%. Even the kids.

Right. Even the kids don't know. So especially
with covert narcissists becausethey're they're they're not
being truthful. They're always,you know, lying.

Yep. And trying to protect their image above all
else. Again, they do not wannalook like the violator in any in
any kind of way. I can rememberasking my ex. I'd sent her to to
therapists through thethroughout the process because I
I thought she had issues withmen and she needed to resolve
these kinds of things and shewas not getting better.
And I can remember asking herone day, I said, are you are you

(27:57):
being truthful with thetherapist? And she goes, well,
she said, I'm I'm telling herwhat she wants to hear so so
that she'll think there'snothing wrong with me. Her exact
words, which, again goes to thisis this is kind of how
narcissists go. They wannaprotect female narcissists go.
They they tend to run under theradar, and they wanna protect
their image above all else, andthey wanna make the man look

(28:20):
like the idiot and the and thecrazy one.

Okay. Let me circle back. So she said to you
that she was telling thetherapist that she's supposed to
be 100% honest with. Right? Shetold you that she was telling
the therapist what the therapistwanted to hear.

Absolutely. 100%.

Oh my goodness. Just when you think just when
you think covert narcissistscan't get any worse, your ex
surprises me.

The moments of honesty are rare, but when you
get them, they're gems. Youknow?

Yeah. That's crazy to me.

John, and then in that moment, I thought, what
about all the money we wasted?This is, well, you know, it's
kinda crazy, but, but that'sthat's how they go. They they
they try to protect their imageabove all else. They throw the
man under the bus. They theytend to weaponize the children
and involve them in ways theyshouldn't, like like Yes.
Like your husband's ex sendingan email through the 21 year old

(29:16):
to his dad, and and and they canweaponize the children against
the father. And generallyspeaking, I think the courts are
less favorable towards men andtheir relationships with
children, than with the woman.Usually usually, you know, even
the kids are gonna go with thewoman in some kind of way and
get primary custody for the mostpart. That doesn't mean shared

(29:38):
custody can exist, but but Ithink the court system is
negatively disposed towards men.

Well, it's funny because twenty two years ago, I
would say that that statementwas correct when I first started
practicing. Yeah. But as I knowCalifornia, it's an evolving
court. Yes. And I know that aswomen have got entered into the
workforce and become educated toenter into the workforce, that's
not necessarily true inCalifornia.

I'm glad to hear that.

Courts are more fifty fifty. They wanna know,
like it used to be where wherewe'd go to court and say, well,
you know, we represent the momand she's a stay at home mom.
And so that was like, okay. Ofcourse, she's gonna get more
time because dad's at work. Sowe'd rather have the child be
with one of the parents.
Right? And so now that argumentdoesn't work because if mom is

(30:27):
also working full time, if dadis working full time, then the
argument they then you can'thave that argument. Right? So
courts in California, theythere's not a presumption of
fifty fifty in Florida. It's apresumption of fifty fifty

Voiceover (30:42):
Yes.

Which I'm not going to tell you what my
opinion is, but but, you know,there's a presumption. So, like,
Michigan, I was an attorney inMichigan, as you know, for a
very high profile case. Andthere was a presumption of fifty
fifty. So we had to show in thatcase that the father had
molested and raped his three anda half year old. And so because

(31:05):
of that, that presumption shouldnot be should not prevail.
Correct. And this is the reasonwhy. And so but it was an uphill
battle. Mhmm. Like, CPS had totestify.
We had to get the rape kit. Wehad to get all the things. Okay?
Because a district attorney inMichigan would not prosecute
because the child could notreally you know, can't testify.

(31:27):
Right?

So And with with covert narcissists also working
to preserve their their theirpersona, their public persona,
and make themselves look good,they often involve the kids. And
in my particular situation, youknow, the the courts were
irrelevant because I didn't I Iwaited till till my kids were
out of out of high school, inorder to divorce. But she'd been

(31:49):
working on them so long, theydidn't they chose not to have
relationship with me by andlarge. So so they're weaponizing
even behind the scenes withoutwithout the courts having been
involved. They're they'rehelping the kids not choose the
man, unfortunately.
Where I can honestly say, I justdidn't ever have conversation
with my ex with my kids about myex at all. I I wanted and

(32:11):
continue to want them to viewher in a favorable light. She's
their mother, and and theyalways need a relationship with
her, so I'll speak favorably anddo. And and the issues that we
had are between she and I.

Correct.

And that is not that is absolutely not how my ex
went and and and handled thatwith my children. Say, she was
working on them for I can I cansee now years back trying to
create a a false image of me, sothat they would choose not to
have relationship with me?

Well, two things I wanna say about that. The
first is you're absolutely 100%correct. And when does this
parental alienation happen? Ibelieve it happens the day that
they meet you. So the day thatthey meet you and they're like,
I'm gonna have a child with thisperson.
Even before they're pregnant oranything like that, they're
thinking, I'm gonna get that kidon my side.

I absolutely. And I could go back even for me, I
wouldn't go back quite that far,but from the time my kids were
born, where she's kind ofpushing me aside, where I wanted
to be involved, like she had towin. She had to be the primary
caretaker. She had to be theone. I always felt I can I can
remember telling her when whenmy kids were little, I feel like
I'm in competition with you?

(33:25):
This is not a competition. I'mtheir I'm their father and I can
I can help and do these kinds ofthings, and you're kind of stiff
arm me, always trying to push meaway, and I think it's to foster
that dependence on them? Yes. Sothat when the time comes, in in
the back of their minds, theyknow something's gonna happen.
When the time comes, they'reready, and they've won the
children.

Well, also, the second thing I wanted to say,
you're absolutely right, is thatnarcissists are afraid of
abandonment. Remember that anarcissist is not born a
narcissist. Some trauma happens,I believe, you know, going back
to Freud who I I really admire,which probably gonna get some
hell for that in the comments,is from nine to I think you said

(34:07):
seven. I would say nine to threeto three to nine is the age, I
think. Some trauma happens tothe narcissist.
Either they were abandoned,abused, neglected, whatever it
is, and then they grow up withthis alter ego. Yes. And so they
grow up always having to selfprotect. So they know when they

(34:28):
meet you, you're going to leavethem. And they'll they'll admit
that.
They'll say, you're gonna leaveme at some point, and all you're
doing is you're trying to showthem unconditional love. Like
Mhmm. I'll never leave you. Andthat's what they want. Mhmm.
They want that victim that'snever gonna leave. And so,
absolutely, you know, I

In fact, it's interesting you said that. You
know, the the therapist I took II took my ex to, I had her tell
her that she was narcissist. Isaid she needs to know because
if something's wrong with aperson, they need to know. She
said, I don't know about that.She she was probably smarter
than I was in it.

(35:06):
She said, I just don't thinkthat's gonna go well. And she
and I said, I I just I reallyfeel strongly about this. If
she's got something wrong withher, she needs to know. Yes. At
at at least you need to say it.
Yes. And and she did at onepoint in time have a
conversation with her where shetold her that, she felt like she
had a cluster b personalitydisorder. She lived somewhere
between borderline andnarcissistic personality

(35:29):
disorder close closer to thenarcissist. And this therapist
told me about the theconversation and she said, my ex
responded to her, but I'm not anarcissist, am I? She says, I'm
not telling you.
You're a narcissist, but I'mtelling you that I think you
have a cluster b personalitydisorder, and that you live
somewhere between borderline andnarcissistic personality
disorder. And she goes, but I'mnot a narcissist. Right? She

(35:50):
goes, again, I'm telling youthat that I think you have a
cluster b personality disorderand that you live somewhere
between narcissist and andborderline. She goes, well, as
long as I'm not a narcissist.
And the therapist said to her, Ijust want you to know if you
continue down this path that Ido believe that you'll be
divorced. Now at the time, I'dnot even breathe the word

(36:12):
because I took me twenty fiveyears to even ascent to the fact
that that was a possibility. Itwas just not in my mind. But the
therapist had the insight at thetime, and I think perhaps knew
knew me better than I knewmyself in these conversations to
say, you know, to my ex, this iscoming. Right.

(36:34):
And she her response was, oh,he'll never leave me. And she
goes, I don't think that's Idon't think that's the case. And
and sure enough, you know, I acouple of years later, I I
pulled the plug and and and wedivorced. And and and ultimate
ultimately, in these kinds ofsituations, women are like you

(36:55):
said, they're kind of, in somerespects, preparing for it, but
they exterior on the exterior,they they really don't
necessarily want to admit it.Now I would tell you also that I
think my ex's situation, she hada kind of a hereditary component
in these kinds of things.
As I look back on her mother'srelationship with her husband,

(37:15):
she handled it the exact sameway. She bad mouthed the husband
to the children. She had her ownlittle tribe with the kids. The
father was always ostracizedfrom the family, and men
experience that even whenthey're before they're divorced.
The the the narcissistic motherwill kinda push them away and
and they're they're outsiders intheir own families.

Right.

So so there was a hereditary component for her as
well where I think narcissisticbehavior was modeled by by her
mother.

Yeah. So, I mean, I just think it's I just
think it's fascinating. I feellike all the stories are
different, but the blueprint ofthe covert narcissist is always
the same.

Yeah. And what you described with the trauma, my ex
has that as well on top of it.So trauma at a very young age,
and, and then ultimately, youknow, they they develop this
lack of conscience from thattrauma. And instead of they
don't have the resources to kindof cope with it, so they push it
out of their head. They theydisconnect.
They dissociate from it, andthis becomes their coping

(38:14):
mechanism as they get older. Andthey don't ever want to have a
conscience, because if they hada conscience and would evaluate
their own behavior, they wouldfind that, and they don't wanna
find it.

Right. That's that's a great way of saying
that. Yeah. Yeah. I know with mymy husband's ex wife, she's the
youngest of nine.
Mhmm. And her father hadmultiple children that she
doesn't even know, like, stepkids and the all these other
kids. And then and he was, Ibelieve, an alcoholic and died

(38:47):
at a at a young age, believe itor not, after the nine kids. And
she had to fend for herself.There was no food in the house.
She's always fending forherself. So she tells our boys
when they say, mom, like, dadgives money for child support
because in New York, it's until21 or 22 if they're in college.

Yeah.

Thankfully, in California, it's still 18 or 19
if they're in high school. Sowe're still paying child
support. And she says, well, Ididn't have food when I was
little. Why do you think youdeserve to have food in the
house?

Wow.

And they're just like, because dad gives you
money for us. So we're not evenasking you. Right? They're older
so they can say that. We're noteven asking you to spend your
own money, but dad gives youmoney.
No. That's my money. That's notyour money.

And this is child support.

Correct. So I'm just telling you, so they have
food insecurity. I don't wannacry, but they have food
insecurity.

Unbelievable.

And because of that, I mean, they're six foot
two, so you can imagine theywork out. They play sports. They
need, you know, a lot of food,and they have food insecurity.
So I'm constantly sending them$100 here, $50 here. Can I have
money for food?
Can I have money? We'reconstantly doing that on top of
support.

Which is which is abuse by a female narcissist of
her own children. Correct. Whenyou're experiencing

Correct.

The the men in your life are experiencing it
experiencing it on multiplelevels. You have your husband
who's experiencing it from hisex, and then you have his sons
who are also experiencing itfrom their mother.

Correct. And so we are we're hypervigilant to
make sure that one of themdoesn't become a narcissist.
Right? And so we have our eye onone. I won't say which one, but
I think we talked about thislast night.
My husband talked to you aboutit. Like, we're a little bit
afraid. Right? Because this isgonna breed narcissism.

Yes. Well, can because, again, the the goals
are different. You know, the thenarcissist is always looking for
dependence from the children,and they're not where a father,
I think, particularly is tryingto raise kids who are more
independent. And the narcissistwants nothing but dependence and
control of the children. Sothey're trying to manipulate the

(41:01):
children into this control sortof thing where they can get
whatever they want out of them.
And if they don't, they discardthem like they would anybody
else that who kind of comesagainst them. But but again,
your your kids are enduringthis. Your sons are enduring
this in in a very difficult way,and they're gonna have to, you

(41:22):
know, hopefully understand thisand kind of work their way out
of it because they've beenmodeled. They've had
narcissistic tendencies modeledfrom their their mother as my
kids have as well. My kids, I'mI'm frightened some days because
of the the way they handleconflict and the way they they
disrespect me is exactly the wayher her she disrespected her her

(41:44):
father and exactly the way hermother modeled this to the
child.
And I I I hope that one day mykids kinda figure it out and and
understand it. And this theseare the results of stuff that
goes on with female narcissisticabuse. Now I wanna say to men,
you're you're not alone in this.And and the fact that that you

(42:06):
couldn't make this work withyour narcissistic wife is not
your fault. You know, I wastelling you earlier about the
rare moments of honesty with myex, and and I can remember her
saying something to me one timewhere was talking about how she
was treating me, and her wordsto me were, well, I would have

(42:27):
done this with anybody.
Oof. Right?

I just got shivers when you just said that.

I would have done this with anybody. That's scary.
It is scary. And and that's thereality, man, of your situation.
This is not personal againstyou.

Yes.

This is not a lack of your ability to go manage
your your marriage or yourfamily. This is this is not your
doing. If if the this femalenarcissist had married somebody
else, this would have happened.And some of the some of the some
of the male victims I I I talkedto on on Instagram, their their

(43:05):
wives have discarded them, andthey are on in another
relationship. And they're like,well, what's your advice?
And I go, grab some popcorn andwatch the

show. Yes.

Because you are going to see this again. As they
get involved with other people,you will you will see this
narcissistic abuse surfaceitself in their next
relationship.

Right. And to your point, there's been
situations where the ex husbandwho was abused will get a call
from the new husband who'ssaying, by the way, did this
happen to you? Because they werealso being abused. Right? And so
to your point, that happens.
I mean, mind you, my husbandwhat has been divorced fifteen

(43:48):
years.

Wow.

This is not something that just happened
where you're like, okay. Threemonths ago, they finalized. This
is fifteen years.

And she is still

Yes.

She is still trying to financially abuse him.

Yes. And then, they were married for fourteen
years, and then fifty so it'sthirty years of abuse that he
suffered. And when you talkabout, you know, wanting to take
your own life, that is also aconversation that needs to be
had because we know people thathave men who have taken their
own lives, and my husband was,you know, attempted it.

And by the way, statistically speaking, men are
far more likely to do that thanwomen.

Right. Then that's a a conversation too that
we should we should have. Youknow? What happens when the man
is at the last stop? You know?
Yep. And he's like, listen. Myhusband said, I'm gonna put all
the money in trust accounts formy sons, and I'm going to do it.
And it was really by the graceof God that he didn't.

Mhmm.

And so to that makes me angry. Mhmm. That like,
when you talk about, like, whatmakes the woman reach out to
you, stories like that.

Mhmm.

Like, you were going to be the cause of my
husband not being here whetherI'm with him or not. Yep. Like,
how dare you? And so that's theanxiety I was feeling, like, a a
month before seeing her at thegraduation. Now we have another
graduation next year.
So, you know, I'll talk to youabout that off the record, but

(45:16):
it's tough.

Yeah. Well, men know you're know you're not
alone. Know that this is not afailure on your part, that this
would have happened no matterwhat, whether they it's not and
it's not personal. It's notbecause of you. That if they'd
married somebody else, again,you they would have encountered
and done these same kinds ofthings.
And I would I would encourageyou to one other thing, which is

(45:39):
to go find some people whobelieve you. There are people
who will believe you, whounderstand these kinds of
things. Seek out and try to findpeople who understand something
about narcissistic abuse and andsee if you can't reach out to
them. I have I have a friend,that I work with who is a a
clinical therapist at one time,and for years, he just listened

(46:01):
to me and and watched, you know,the abuse go on. Interestingly
enough, never told me todivorce, not a single time.
I had to allow me to come tothat conclusion on my own, and I
had to go do that. But but hislistening, was helpful. My my
best friend also who happens tobe in studio with us kinda
watching today also did nothingbut listen and continues to

(46:26):
listen when I I need to talk.And there there are times that I
still need to talk about thesekinds of things. Because these
these this situation is woveninto the fabric of my life.
And although I've been divorcedfor five years, that doesn't
mean the pain goes away. Thatdoesn't mean I don't have to
deal with some of the fallout ofthis. Like like your husband is

(46:49):
still, you know, hey. Here's ahere here's a here's a a bill
for $52,000. No receiptsattached, but I'd like for you
to write the check.
It's crazy. And years later,even even after a divorce, some
of these female narcissists comeback and still continue to try
abuse men try to abuse men. Soso you have to you have to have

(47:12):
people around you who who loveyou and are willing to listen.
And and the best gift you cangive somebody, particularly a
guy, I think, in this who'sliving these kinds of situation
is to believe them. That'sthat's the greatest gift I think
you you can give a man who mightbe enduring these kinds of

(47:33):
things.
And when he talks about thesituations, because the the
female narcissist is often sovehemently protective of their
their public persona. Initially,when you when when a man starts
talking about these kinds ofthings, it's like, there's no
there's no way this can behappening. If they know they

(47:55):
know the one there's just no noway that she could be doing this
or she could be doing that. It'svery hard for for other people
outside to wrap their mindsaround this kind of thing
happening because because thenarcissist is covert and is
protecting their public imagebecause they're and they're good
at it.

They're great at it. Yeah. They're great

at it. So the man so you're going, I'm going crazy
do dealing with this kind ofthing. Her image looks
fantastic. You're falling apart,and they're going, you're the
crazy one. That's the naturalconclusion.
So if if a man comes to you andsays, I'm experiencing these
kinds of things, the best giftyou could give him is to believe
him and to listen.

Yeah. That's great advice. And, also, to
follow you on Instagram,obviously, to listen to our
podcast, and you do a lot ofcoaching with men as well and
women. Yep. And so definitely,you know, reach out.
You're not alone. I wish that Iknew that. My husband says this
all the time. I wish I had youguys when I was going through
this. You know, he's

I wish I had us guys when we were going through
it.

He listens. A lot of times, we'll go like,
we'll drive to San Diego. We'llgo to Palm Springs. We'll go to,
Santa Barbara. So we do theselong drives, and he'll listen to
us, and he'll go, gosh, I wish Ihad that.
Yeah. You know? Gosh, I wish Ihad this wisdom. Yep. And so he
didn't even know what it was toyour point.

And one of the other things I wanna say before
we kinda close out here today isthis. Because we're talking
about men here and how they theyare victimized by female
narcissists, does not mean thatwe don't care about women, and
and and they're being victimizedby male narcissists as well.

Of Of course.

That's we we you know, nobody nobody should have
to go through that male orfemale. So if if if you're in a
place where you're beingvictimized by a narcissist, we
want you to know that we're withyou, male or female. We just
wanna take the day today to tokinda shine a light on on how
men are perceived with thisbecause it really is different

(49:52):
And and we're more likely seeneven in situations where we're
victimized as the crazy ones.And it's it's it's just it's
just different. We wanna shine alight on that today.
It's good conversation today.

Yes. It was great to have you in studio.

It is so nice to look across the the couch at you
today instead of having to juststare at you at a screen. And,
Lina and JC, who I just met inperson for the first time, thank
you guys for being a part of ourjourney here. Olus Media is
where we're at today recording,and they got us started. And,
we're indebted to you for yourwork with us. So thank you so

(50:26):
much.
You can look them up atolusmedia.com, I think, if,
you're interested. And, andthey're wonderful people and,
can help you get going on apodcast like they did us. Other
than that, you can find us onInstagram at narc.podcast. This
one right here at Jafari Legalon on Instagram, and I'm male
victims of female narcissists onInstagram as well. So we hope

(50:49):
you have a wonderful afternoon.
Thank you for, the conversationwith us and enjoying your time.

Voiceover (50:54):
The Narcissist Abuse Recovery Channel discusses very
emotional situations, includingsuicide. If you are in that
situation, we recommend that youimmediately seek out
professional help because youare important and your life is
worth preserving. Please takethis seriously and tell someone
your situation. To reach theNational Suicide Hotline, call

(51:15):
or text 988 from any phone.Thank you for listening to the
Narcissist Abuse RecoveryChannel.
Be sure to follow and subscribewherever you get your podcasts.
To hear other episodes or readthe associated blogs, visit
and be sure to follow us onInstagram with the handled narc.

(51:38):
Podcast. The guest views,thoughts, and opinions expressed
are their own. The informationpresented is for general
informational purposes only andis not intended to be legal
advice.
The co hosts are not licensedtherapists. Seek professional
help as information is oftenstate specific. The Narcissist
Abuse Recovery Channel isproduced in studios in

(52:00):
California and Georgia.

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The Hidden Struggles of Men in Abusive Relationships with Narcissists - Episode 302

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}The Hidden Struggles of Men in Abusive Relationships with Narcissists - Episode 302