Understanding Covert Narcissism: What You Need to Know - Episode 204

Summary

 

In this conversation, Jon and Padideh discuss the complexities of covert narcissism, sharing personal experiences and insights into the traits and behaviors of covert narcissists. They explore the emotional impact of living with such individuals, the challenges of gaslighting, and the importance of recognizing these traits in relationships. The discussion also touches on the duality of covert versus overt narcissism and the often hidden nature of the abuse inflicted by covert narcissists. In this conversation, Jon and Padideh discuss the emotional and financial toll of relationships with narcissists, particularly focusing on covert narcissism. They share personal experiences of emotional abuse, the struggle for validation, and the challenges faced during and after divorce. The discussion highlights the importance of recognizing the signs of narcissistic behavior, the impact on mental health, and the journey towards recovery and finding peace after leaving such toxic relationships.

Takeaways

 

• Covert narcissists are often perceived as nice people by outsiders.
• They lack empathy and can be spiritually devoid of goodness.
• The duality of covert and overt narcissism creates different challenges for victims.
• Gaslighting is a common tactic used by covert narcissists.
• Victims often feel isolated and unheard due to the covert nature of the abuse.
• Covert narcissists prioritize their public persona over genuine relationships.
• Toxic amnesia is a significant issue in relationships with narcissists.
• Personal experiences can provide insight into the traits of narcissists.
• Recognizing the signs of covert narcissism is crucial for victims.
• Healing from narcissistic abuse often requires professional support. It's hard to prove the abuse of covert narcissists.
• The public persona of narcissists often blinds others to the truth.
• Financial abuse is a common tactic used by narcissists.
• Narcissists often push their partners to the brink before leaving.
• The emotional toll of living with a narcissist is profound.
• Journaling can help victims keep track of the truth.
• Narcissists often play the victim to gain sympathy from others.
• Divorce from a narcissist can be a long and painful process.
• Many victims lose friends and family during and after the relationship.
• Recovery is possible, and peace can be found after leaving. 

Chapters

 

00:00 Introduction and Personal Updates

03:06 Understanding Covert Narcissism

05:50 The Duality of Covert vs Overt Narcissism

08:56 Traits of Covert Narcissists

12:05 Personal Experiences with Narcissism

15:00 Gaslighting and Toxic Amnesia

18:00 The Impact of Covert Narcissism on Relationships

21:04 Conclusion and Reflections

29:28 The Emotional Toll of Narcissistic Relationships

36:11 The Struggle for Validation and Support

45:12 Financial Abuse and Control in Narcissistic Dynamics

56:52 The Long Road to Recovery and Moving On

Episode Transcript

Jon McKenney (00:07):
When the time comes for you to kinda go, this
is going on, everybody aroundthem is so snowed and their
public persona is so positivethey go I just can't believe
that this is true.

Voiceover (00:21):
Welcome to the narcissist abuse recovery
channel with John McKinney andPadida Jafari.

Jon McKenney (00:27):
Padideh, it's good to see you again. Good
afternoon. How is

Padideh Jafari (00:32):
Hi. How are you?

Jon McKenney (00:33):
Good. How's sunny California?

Padideh Jafari (00:35):
It's good, actually. Last week, we were in
on the East Coast. We went toNew York, our other home there.

Jon McKenney (00:43):
Oh, nice. Good.

Padideh Jafari (00:44):
And then we flew to Chicago and drove to
Wisconsin Madison, where mymiddle child you know, I'm a
stepmom of three. Yes. I don'twant to say child because he's
like six foot two. He is stillmy kid.

Jon McKenney (01:00):
They're always kids. He

Padideh Jafari (01:02):
graduated from the University of Wisconsin
Madison. And so it's nice tohave the second child out of
college. And then we have athird child who graduates next
year from the University ofTampa. So I'm really, really
excited not to be paying tuitionanymore, as I'm sure most of our
listeners feel that way whentheir kids graduate.

Jon McKenney (01:25):
Oh, yeah. The first step is graduating
college, and step number two isgetting them off the payroll.

Padideh Jafari (01:31):
Correct. And you know all about that, John.

Jon McKenney (01:33):
I do. I had four and they're all off the payroll.
So it's it's kind of nice againto, have a little money. So
guess what happened here thispast weekend? You would think
that, that this would be aCalifornia thing, but we had an
earthquake here in Georgia.
So Oh my goodness. It was it wasepicenter in Tennessee, four

(01:56):
point one, I think, on theRichter scale, and it made
things shake here this pastSaturday morning. I was at a
funeral, and things are kind ofvibrating a little bit, so it
was ridiculous. And the kinds ofthings I'm I'm not really
excited about. One of thereasons I don't live in
California.

Padideh Jafari (02:12):
Wow, that's amazing. But you are coming to
California next month?

Jon McKenney (02:15):
I am.

Padideh Jafari (02:17):
And what's the reason you're coming to
California?

Jon McKenney (02:19):
We are having a podcast launch party and I can't
wait.

Padideh Jafari (02:24):
Yeah, me too. It's actually at a really,
really nice place. It's where Iusually hang out with my
girlfriends. So I'm reallyexcited to have this launch
party there.

Jon McKenney (02:37):
Awesome. Well, it's going to be great to see
you again and, it's going begreat to celebrate our launch as
well. So I'm really thrilled.Today we've got we're going to
have some fun. Well, I don'tknow whether it's fun or not,
not if you're in it.
But, today we want to talk aboutcovert narcissists and, covert
narcissism and how it differssome from perhaps, narcissists

(02:57):
you may understand. And, and wewanted to to kinda connect on
that thought today. So tell mewhat you understand about covert
narcissists.

Padideh Jafari (03:07):
They are actually evil people. They're
spiritually devoid of anyhumanity whatsoever. They lack
severe empathy. They're veryselfish people. And they ruin
other people's lives, likeinnocent people's lives.

(03:31):
Obviously, I know this throughnot only my personal life with
the narcissists I deal with,families, friends, neighbors,
and things like that, but alsoprofessionally as a divorce
attorney of twenty two years,you know, I've met my fair share
of narcissists, as you canimagine.

Jon McKenney (03:50):
I'm sure you have. And what what's what fascinates
me, one of the words you use,because I've used the same word.
The word is evil. It's a veryit's a very spiritual word. And,
I had I'd been talking to one ofmy coworkers one time and kind
of described, narcissist is eviland mine certainly was the

(04:11):
covert narcissist variety.
And and his response to me was,that's a really harsh thing to
say about somebody. And theinteresting thing I have found
in connecting with people onlineand in some coaching, that word
evil is perhaps the most commonword I've heard used to

(04:35):
describe, particularly covertnarcissists. And it and it being
a spiritual word, it comes frompeople who would consider
themselves spiritual and thosealso who don't consider
themselves spiritual. So that'sa really fascinating word to
just first come out of yourmouth to say they tend to be
evil people.

Padideh Jafari (04:55):
Yeah, and I want to make sure that I'm not
sugarcoating this. They areabsolutely spiritually devoid of
any goodness. And so I've seenthese covert narcissists, which
I actually believe covertnarcissists are worse than the
malignant overt narcissists

Jon McKenney (05:17):
I would agree.

Padideh Jafari (05:18):
Because they fly under the weight radar, which,
you know, we've talked aboutthat multiple times.

Jon McKenney (05:23):
Better the devil you see than the one you don't.

Padideh Jafari (05:25):
Yes. Exactly. And it's like the devil you see,
right, which is the overtnarcissist. You're like, Okay,
most people can spot that personin a room. They walk in, and
you're like, Okay, this personis flamboyant.
They're this or that. It's thecovert narcissists that really

(05:46):
are so traumatizing to someone'ssoul because nobody believes the
victim. Nobody believes thembecause to the outside world,
they seem like such a niceperson. Oh my gosh, they're so
nice. How could you even beginto call them evil, right?

(06:08):
But then the person that'sliving with them and their
children, maybe even theircoworkers, they know that
sinister side of them.

Jon McKenney (06:17):
It's really interesting you describe this.
There's kind of a duality incovert narcissists that perhaps
doesn't exist in what we callovert narcissists. Overt
narcissists, like you described,people who, generally speaking,

(06:37):
you know they're a narcissist.It's obvious to everybody around
that they have narcissistictendencies. They tend to be very
difficult to get along with.
They tend to be very aggressive.They can be very hurtful. And
then you have this group ofpeople who we call covert
narcissists who fly under theradar, who actually live in such

(07:00):
a way that their public personais the most important thing. In
fact, they they decide whetherwhether things are right or
wrong based on how the publicperceives them. Whether they're
right or wrong or not, hasnothing to do with the
conscience.
It's it's how does the publicsee me? And if the public sees
them favorably, then it's aright thing to do. And if a
public sees them unfavorably,then it's a wrong thing to do.

(07:23):
And this kind of flying underthe radar sets the victim in a
place where nobody believesthem.

Padideh Jafari (07:32):
Correct.

Jon McKenney (07:33):
And it's a so so you've got this what what you
have is a situation where youhave you have this ridiculous
abuse going on in private. Andif it's a if it's a spouse, you
may be the only one that seesit. And even if you have kids,
your kids may not be aware thisis going on because it's it's a

(07:55):
private battle. And and andoftentimes covert narcissists
are put themselves in a placewhere they really want to be the
winners of the children'shearts. At some level, want to
win the kids, and it startsvery, very young so that even
the children that are in thehome may not understand that

(08:19):
they're actually dealing with acovert narcissist in any way,
shape, or form.

Padideh Jafari (08:23):
Yes, you're absolutely right. It just might
be the spouse. Sometimes theyfeel like later on, as the
children age out and they startmaybe even their own families,
they realize, wait a minute, myparent was a narcissist. I see

(08:44):
that a lot, John, on TikTokthese days, because I like to
scroll on TikTok at night, likemany people do, and TikTok and
Instagram. And I hear thechildren of these narcissistic
usually they're covertnarcissistic mothers say, we are
no contact with our mother, andthis is why.

(09:06):
And so we're going to go throughsome of the qualities and the
traits of a covert narcissist,because I feel like a lot of
times, victims don't believeeven when you say, hey, that
person is narcissistic or is anarcissist. They don't believe
us because they're like, well,what are the signs or what are

(09:27):
the traits that we're going to,I think, go over like four or
five traits of a covertnarcissist today.

Jon McKenney (09:33):
Yeah. There are a whole lot more than that even.
We may get to more, but you'reabsolutely correct. And because
they fly under the radar, it'simportant to know something
about them. One of the thingsthat oftentimes distinguishes
somebody you might typicallycall a narcissist is that they
tend to be aggressive and covertnarcissists are not aggressive.

(09:56):
In fact go ahead.

Padideh Jafari (09:58):
I would say I don't know necessarily that I
agree with that. That's such alegal way of saying I don't
agree. Only because they arebullies. And so you're right in
the sense that they're notovertly bullying you, but
they're doing things toundermine. To me, that's sort of
bullying.

(10:19):
But yes,

Jon McKenney (10:20):
that's so much I would It's absolutely, but
again, flies under the radar.It's not the in your face kind
of aggression that you wouldnormally see with a narcissist.
Oftentimes, they may not startthe fight, but they push you to
the point. They'll do somethingthat pushes you to the point
where you start the fight, andthen of course they become the

(10:41):
victim, from from from theirabuse. And it's it's unfortunate
because, again, they're pushingthe buttons.
Somebody responds to this buttonpushing, and they they keep
pushing the buttons until theperson responds. And then you
get this anger or rage from thevictim, and and the the covert

(11:02):
narcissist will say, oh, youknow what? You're You're
bullying me. You're angry withme, so you must be the crazy
one.

Padideh Jafari (11:10):
Correct, 100%. So let's go over some of those
traits. I know with yoursituation, your ex wife is a
covert narcissist. I think youhad said at some point that she
was actually diagnosed as anarcissist.

Jon McKenney (11:26):
She was.

Padideh Jafari (11:27):
So crazy to me because most of them never go
into a psychotherapist's officeto get diagnosed correctly. So
tell me a little bit about that.

Jon McKenney (11:39):
So I actually had through a business encounter met
somebody who was a therapist andwent to talk to them about
business. Honestly, of thegreat, greatest gifts of my
life, this sweet woman, she satdown with me and we talked about

(12:00):
business. And then at some pointin time, I transitioned the
conversation and we were kind ofdone. And I said, so can I shift
the conversation a minute? Shegoes, sure.
And I go, I really think I'mbeing abused by a narcissist.
And she grabbed her legal padand pen, and she just, for the
next two hours, just sat andlistened to me bleed. And, I

(12:24):
insisted on paying her and did,even though she didn't wanna
take money, which was ultimatelysuper kind as well, but just
locked into me and dialed intome one of the greatest gifts of
my life. Her name was Bridget,in fact. If you're listening,
thank you so much.
That was absolutely amazing. AndI I continued to see her to to

(12:45):
try to heal from thenarcissistic abuse I was I was
enduring. I was super low at thetime, and she came in, and God
put me at just the right in justthe right time and just the
right place. Well, I didn't tellmy person who is my wife, who's
now my ex. I didn't tell herthat I was going to see her, and
she found out, I don't knowwhether it was through a receipt

(13:05):
or some other kind of way that II started to see her and got
livid with me that I would goand get help.
So I said, hey. Well, I mean, ifyou'd if you'd like to come,
you're welcome to come. Andinvited her into the sessions,
And she was diagnosed by thisparticular professional as a

(13:26):
narcissist in the covertvariety. So that's that's how I
found out. Most people who arein my situation don't have the
luxury of of having somebodyhaving their their narcissist
get diagnosed.
But I was fortunate enough tohave that done.

Padideh Jafari (13:44):
Wow. So what is one of the qualities that you
noticed either before thistherapy session or meeting
Bridget or after that youstarted to kind of notice, Okay,
this is a narcissistic trait?Like, me how that came about and
what one of the qualities are.

Jon McKenney (14:05):
So mostly for me, behind the scenes, it was an
inability to resolve anythingand something we call toxic
amnesia. There are there thereare two I think there are two
different kinds of victims.There are those who kind of let
the narcissist kind of bully andand and the the victim becomes

(14:25):
more passive and kind of doesn'twant to deal with them and
doesn't correct them. And I wasjust not that guy being the the
man of the house, and I tookthat role seriously, and I took
the the role to lead my familyand my wife seriously, I I
stepped into those conversationswhere she was off and lying and
pretending and making up storiesand worked tirelessly, and I

(14:50):
mean tirelessly, to try andbring us to a place of agreement
where we could kind of moveforward. Some of these
conversations wound up beingvery heated, to be honest with
you, because the narcissistdoesn't want to deal with what's
going on.
They just pretend it's notthere. So after what was
oftentimes an hour or two ofpretending and me kind of, no,

(15:10):
you did this, you did this.Okay, let's not lie. You did
this. She'd finally agree, andwe'd talk about what the
appropriate direction was, andwe'd go to sleep with that.
The next morning, she'd do thesame exact thing that she said
she wasn't going to do and thatshe'd agreed not to go do. And

(15:33):
then when I went back to theconversation, it was like, what
conversation? I don't know whatyou're talking about. We didn't
talk about that. So that was thething that drove me nuts.
I couldn't ever move forward. Icouldn't ever get us to a place
where there was ever alignmentor agreement. And even with a
therapist, sitting in front of atherapist also sometimes, the

(15:54):
therapist would try to get herto do this stuff too. She would
agree and then come back and go,Yeah, I just didn't do it.
Wasn't important to me.

Padideh Jafari (16:01):
So Well, like, give me an example of that. Just
give me one example of it.

Jon McKenney (16:06):
So there was a time where we were going to go
on vacation. We usually would dothese family vacations in
Upstate New York. And mynarcissist ex and I decided
family actually lived in theMidwest, and we decided we were

(16:26):
gonna have to go visit theminstead of going on a family
vacation with my extendedfamily, which we hated to do
because it was an annual almostfamily reunion. It was very
important to us, we'd spent alot of years up there. And my
sisters were there with kids andall of this other stuff.
So it was it was a a blow. Andwe we decided was this. You know

(16:48):
what? We we said, let's let's goput $500 down on the Upstate New
York thing. And if we lose it,we lose it.
We don't have to decide and payuntil a week before, and we can
see if the money's present to godo both things. And if not, you
know, we'll we'll do it. So Isaid, but I I really don't think
this is something we can tell myfamily we're going to surprise

(17:12):
them with. We really I wouldprefer us keep this to
ourselves. I don't want the kidsto know.
I don't want to get their hopesup and then dash them. So let's
keep this to ourselves and notdiscuss it. She said, Oh, that
makes all kinds of sense. Let'skeep this to ourselves. And I
said, We can't tell We're notgonna tell my parents.
We're not gonna tell my sisters.We're not gonna tell our kids.
If this happens, it'll be apleasant surprise for everybody

(17:33):
at the very end. She goes, thatwould be great. So the next day,
she called my sister and toldher.

Padideh Jafari (17:40):
Told her what?

Jon McKenney (17:41):
Told her the whole thing.

Padideh Jafari (17:43):
Oh my goodness.

Jon McKenney (17:44):
Told her everything that we discussed
that we were not going to say.And when I confronted her, she
said, I said, Why would you dothis? We agreed together not to
go do this. And she goes, Oh, Ijust didn't think it was
important. And at the time we'dbeen seeing a therapist and I

(18:05):
brought this story to thetherapist and the therapist
said, Is that true?
And she says, Yeah, it was justkind of no big deal. So it
really didn't matter to me. So Ididn't care. And it ended right
there. The therapist said toher, at that point in time,
looked at her and said, You knowwhat?
I think you guys need toseparate because this is just
not going to work out. And shegoes, is this kind of from what

(18:27):
I'm doing? She's like, yeah,this is what you're doing. These
are the kinds of things peopledivorce over. And and these
kinds of things for me were wereconsistently just really
ridiculous and a problem.

Padideh Jafari (18:41):
Yeah. I mean, can tell you as a divorce
attorney that it's not justpeople listening are going to be
like, he divorced her over thisone action. No. There's a root
cause to what she did, which isshe undermined you. And
furthermore, she did it withyour own family.

(19:02):
So she didn't even give you thebenefit of the doubt to say,
hey, you know what? I've changedmy mind. Because I've done this
with my husband. Or I'm like,you know what? I know we discuss
this, but I slept on it and Ichanged my mind.
Like, can we revisit this andthen come to maybe a different
agreement or whatever? And he'slike, yeah, you know what? So

(19:23):
that's a different conversationwhen you're actually going back
to your spouse and saying, canwe revisit something because
I've had a change of heart orwhatever it is. But I know from
your story, this is theunfortunate thing is that most
of your family is gone andbelieved her side of the

Jon McKenney (19:42):
divorce. And

Padideh Jafari (19:44):
this is one way which looking back on it, you
probably know this already thatshe was trying to triangulate
and say, look, look, I told mysister-in-law, oh, and John
didn't want you to know. Butdon't tell him that I said that,
right? She's making that withher sister-in-law, she's the

(20:06):
savior, she's gonna tell themthe secrets. I mean, it's awful.
Like my heart just sank when yousaid this story because it's
such a bigger issue

Jon McKenney (20:18):
Oh, yeah.

Padideh Jafari (20:19):
What she did.

Jon McKenney (20:20):
It's it's death by paper cuts. You know what the
most bizarre thing about thiswas, Padilla? She told me the
next evening that she'd donethis. We'd we'd had a
conversation, like, on a Tuesdaynight, And she told me Wednesday
night while she's making dinner,she goes, oh, by the way, I was
talking to your sister aboutwhat we're gonna go do and how
we're not telling anybody. Andand I said, I was like, what?

(20:44):
Like, she told me she told meshe'd done it. Like we didn't
ever have that conversation.Don't you remember this? Think
is we discussed this yesterday.You're not going to go do this.
Then again, when she retold thestory, told I remember the
therapist asked me what happenedand I went and told her what
happened. And she retold thesame exact story to the

(21:09):
therapist expecting a differentresponse. And the therapist is
like, you're out of your mind.

Padideh Jafari (21:13):
Correct.

Jon McKenney (21:14):
So, you know, and I genuinely think she expected
to tell the same exact story andget a different response from
the therapist. And of course shedidn't. One the others, and this
toxic amnesia behind the sceneswill drive you nuts. Yes, it
will drive you absolutely nuts.One of the things that I can
remember also.

(21:36):
Taking place was in a pastoralcall. We didn't see. We were
both involved in it at the samechurch and visited our pastor
one time. And I decided I wasgoing to sit there and let her
speak and only to provide truth.So he would ask her questions,

(21:59):
and she would answer, and Iwould go, please tell this man
the truth.
That's all I do. And she'd get alittle closer to it, and I would
go, please tell this man thetruth. I did this for an hour.
Please tell this man the truth.Please tell this man the truth.
Please tell this man the truth.And finally, I think he had a
decent enough picture of whatwas going on. And he said, let

(22:22):
me let me ask a question. Hesays, I think I I think I
understand what's going on. Hehe said to my my ex, he said, so
it seems like your issues kindof predate John.
Like, you had these kind ofissues before you got married,
you know, and and you're stilldealing with them and or not,
and it's causing a heartache. Hegoes, yeah. Yeah. That's

(22:44):
absolutely correct. She said,yeah, that's absolutely correct.
When so then he said, let me letme ask you a follow-up question.
And he said to her, did you everlove your husband? And she
looked at him and she said, no.I I never really did love him.

(23:07):
He was like, the the knifethrough the chest.
It's like, in that moment, youyou go, this whole thing was a
sham. Why in the hell did didyou would you marry somebody you
don't even love? And I was wascrushed. I was absolutely
crushed. And he looked at me andhe said, you're you're angry.

(23:31):
And I'm like, you think? Youknow, I said I started with that
when I walked in here. I toldyou I was angry. And these kinds
of things, marrying somebody whosays they don't love you, they
can make somebody angry becauseit's 25 later, and I'm still
dealing with this. And and we wegot home and settled in.

(23:51):
I we had a little quiet timeafter the kids were in bed, and
I can remember saying to herquietly. I said, I just want you
to know that what you said todayin our session with a pastor
really hurt. And she goes, whatdid I say? And I said, you told

(24:13):
me that you'd never love me evenbefore we were married. She
said, I didn't say that.

Padideh Jafari (24:17):
Oh my goodness.

Jon McKenney (24:19):
Never never said that. And and I was, yeah, I
don't know what to like, whenyou get into those moments, one,
it's so jolting when you hearit, and then it's so jolting
when they unsay it, and itbecomes a problem for you,
ridiculously so. Like, it wassomething I could not let go.

(24:40):
And and I would revisit it withher and I would say, you know
something? I it it this you saidthis and she no.
I didn't. I didn't say this.Finally. Finally, six months
later, I brought it up again andshe said, guess what? I did say
it.
Happy now? It's like, I don'tknow what to do with that. You

(25:03):
know, you just go I mean, atleast it was an honest moment,
but okay, well then that's wherewe're at. So behind the scenes
for me, it was this torture of Isaid that, didn't say it, I did
this, I didn't do it, and neverbeing able to resolve conflict.
And it absolutely drove me tothe edge of crazy things.

(25:27):
It really did. I felt like I wasgoing nuts. You know, it was
gaslighting at its worst. It'skind of like coming home one day
and going, which car did youdrive? Well, drove the red one.
We don't have a red car. We havea blue one. Well, our car is
red. No, it's blue. And then youcome home tomorrow.
Well, how's the green car? Andthe story would change

(25:48):
constantly. And I'm sure that ifI went back today and
articulated the story, she wouldhave already made up some other
kind of story in her head toabsolve herself of
responsibility. And she believesthat to be the truth. So in this
particular situation, my pastorheard her, but did nothing with
it, to be completely honest withyou.

(26:08):
He just took that and was like,no violation here. You mean you
married somebody you don't loveand that's not a violation? But
he didn't do anything with it.And people don't believe you
when these kinds of thingshappen.

Padideh Jafari (26:23):
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, this is just
heartbreaking. I mean, you and Iare really good friends. I think
I call you my bestie.

Jon McKenney (26:32):
You do.

Padideh Jafari (26:32):
So I can't like, it really just hurts me to know
that you spent the twenty fiveyears of your life, like pivotal
years of your life, right, withthis person. A churchgoing man.
You're doing all the rightthings. And here she has the

(26:53):
audacity to sit there and say, Inever loved him. And that might
have been your only time thatshe's ever been honest

Jon McKenney (27:03):
with you. Do realize that right? Absolutely.

Padideh Jafari (27:06):
But it's like we've said this before. Think on
one of the earlier shows yousaid I think it was Luke
actually who asked us, what madeyou stay? Like asked both of us,
what made you stay in thesenarcissistic marriages? And you
said habit. So when you'retelling this story, John, I'm

(27:28):
thinking, why did you go homewith her?
I would have been like, you knowwhat? I need to go visit my
parents for a couple weeks, or Ineed to go get a hotel room for
a couple of weeks. I need toreally process this because I
can't imagine going into thesame marital bed with someone
that just said, don't love you.

Jon McKenney (27:47):
Yeah. It's ridiculously painful. And these
are the kinds of things thatwind up with a covert
narcissist. These battles areprivate, you know, so it can
happen with just you and nobodyelse. Where where if you have an
overt narcissist, everybody is,yeah, they're they're nuts.
You know, they they lash out.They're aggressive. They might

(28:10):
tell other people they don'tlove you. But with a covert
narcissist, it all happensbehind the scenes, and they are
more interested in their publicpersona and how they are
received by the public thanabsolutely anything else. So
what what take what winds uptaking place is, you know, the
the Chinese water torture inyour marriage and and you're

(28:34):
gradually going crazy.
And after twenty five years ofthese kinds of things, you can
imagine the insanity. It's like,just can't hear one more lie
ever again. I I can't I can'thear the pretending. I can't
hear the story. I can't youknow, we decided it this way.
No. We didn't. We did it thisway. It would it would drive you
absolutely nuts with therevisionist history. And then

(28:57):
ultimately, I had a harder time,I think, hiding my emotional
self than she did.
She didn't care. And for me, Iwas down. I was discouraged. It
made me all kinds of emotionalin different kinds of ways. So
you wind up looking to thepublic like the crazy one.
And when the when the divorcecomes and you you leave, they

(29:19):
go, oh, look. See? He's justhe's just crazy. He's just
acting out. And they go, Ohyeah, it's terrible.
And then they side with thenarcissist and don't want to
hear the story of the victim.

Padideh Jafari (29:32):
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you are spot
on with that. I remember onetime I also had a moment at the
pastor's office. It was actuallymy pastor's. It was a male
pastor and then his wife alsoserved along with him.
And we were in it was like beingcalled in the principal's

(29:54):
office. Okay? You never wantthis. And so we went. It was
really at the tail end of ourmarriage.
The pastor said, you need toforgive. And you need to do all
this stuff. And I said, listen,I will take him back. I will
actually take him back because Istill loved my ex husband. I

(30:14):
said, I will take him back ifyou come and live with us.
And he said, what do you mean?And I said, no, no, no. I want
you to come live with us forjust the next thirty days. And I
want you to see the abuse that Iam suffering because nobody
believes that this man they knewhe had cheated. He had left me

(30:37):
for a much younger woman.
They knew that. But that wasn'tenough for the pastor to say,
Okay, you know what? You candivorce him. It was like, no,
you need to forgive. And thepastor's wife, who I'm still
friends with her to this day,she said she turned to her
husband and she said, he did hera favor.

(31:00):
Because biblically, she can bedivorced now because of the
adultery. And so I didn'trealize, John, what I had said
when I said it, obviously,fifteen years ago. But now when
you just share that story,because was my ex was a
malignant. But of course, hadsome Malignants also like to

(31:21):
look like the good guy and allthis stuff. And my ex husband
looked good on the outside.
But the inside, there wasnothing there. He was literally
a shell of a person, had nomorals, had nothing. And so
here, I said this to the pastor.And it made sense now because it
was like nobody was seeing whatI was dealing with at home.

Jon McKenney (31:45):
Yeah. Yeah. It it it's it's very hard to prove
because, again, covertnarcissists covert narcissists
work so hard on their publicpersona. Correct. That when when
the time comes for you to kindago, this is going on, everybody
around them is so snowed, andtheir public persona is so

(32:06):
positive.
They go, I just can't believethat this is true. And here you
are, you know, enduring thisridiculous abuse behind the
scenes, and you don't know whatto do with it. You know, one of
the other things my ex pretendedaway, she confessed to me at one
point in time that she had anemotional obsession with another
man, and that she was outlooking for him during the day

(32:27):
and in stores. She was she waslooking for him wherever she
would go. And I I was glad thatin a rare moment, that's one of
the rare times I felt like shewas honest with me.
And I thought, you know what? Ifshe can tell me this, she can
tell me anything. And I thoughtit was really gonna be a growth
point. And we I prayed with her,and I told her it was gonna be

(32:49):
okay. We just needed some morehonest conversation.
And I asked her two days later,hey. How are you doing with the
emotional obsession with the exboyfriend? She goes, I don't
know what you're talking about.

Padideh Jafari (32:58):
Oh my gosh.

Jon McKenney (33:00):
So so you can't ever you can't ever move through
a conflict. You can't everresolve a conflict. You can't
ever agree on a story. If you doagree on it, this time tomorrow
would be different. And then ifyou agree to that story, then
you go back again, and thatstory is different again.
And then it might come down tothe first time. And it it really
is an exercise in I don't knowhow else to say it. It's really

(33:21):
just a mind fuck. I it's I Iknow it's a terrible word, but I
I don't know how I don't knowhow else to describe the
intensity of of how bad thesekinds of things are for the mind
and the heart over a period oftime. And it literally again,
it's I'm sitting here racking myfingers thinking about it.

(33:44):
It is it is absolutely horrific.And the sadder part is that
other people will believe themover you.

Padideh Jafari (33:52):
Yes. And that's the other thing that nobody
really talks about is not onlydoes the narcissist when you
leave the narcissist, you'velost sort of the love of your
life, right? They're not thelove of your life because they
have no capacity to love anybodybut Absolutely. So you've lost
the love of your life, and thenyou lose all the other people.

(34:15):
Like, sometimes family membersbelieve them.
I know with my ex, day that thecops were called, the night that
the cops were called andeverything and he had to leave
the house, my brother took himin not knowing anything really
that happened. But he was like,look, he called. He had no place
to stay. He said that you gotinto some argument. And I was

(34:38):
like, what the heck did you do?
And so I was estranged from mybrother for it was a couple
months. And then my brother'sgirlfriend believed him because
he went to their house. And so Iwas estranged from her for a
couple of years, actually. Wow.So it's like all those little

(34:59):
people that are not so little inyour life, they also take those
people I know with you.
Like your parents are believingher, the sisters, the this, the
that. So it's heart wrenchingfor the victim because you lose
churches. I was lucky that mychurch said I could stay,

(35:24):
obviously. Now I was a divorcedwoman. But I left because of my
own shame.
And so because there's shameattached to all of these things.
And so yes, it's reallydifficult. But the mind F that
you just talked about, oh, Icompletely remember it, John.
And as you're talking, it's sotriggering because it's like,

(35:47):
that's why I know you journaleda lot just during your marriage
and your divorce. That's why Ialways tell clients, as soon as
you can, start to journal.
And they're like, I don't knowhow. I'm like, well, write a
timeline. This is what happened.This is what was Because you're
going to go back to it. And Iwant you to recall some of that

(36:07):
stuff because they're going tosay it was different.
No, it wasn't that. No, it wasthis other way. And it's like,
you don't know who to believe.And because you desperately love
this person, you're trying tohold on to them, you're going to
say, Okay, maybe I need to doubtmyself because maybe that's not
what I heard. And I could bewrong.

(36:28):
And so they have you in such alow point in your life that
you're constantly doubtingyourself.

Jon McKenney (36:34):
Yeah. I had to I had to keep a journal of what
she said so that when she wentback to it, I didn't think I was
going crazy, literally. Correct.So she would she would say
something, I'd write it down.And then when we revisited the
story a couple of days later,you'd go, what what did I say?
I I had to go back literally tothe to what I'd I'd journaled so
that I could actually see formyself that I wasn't going

(36:56):
crazy. And here's the thing.Their public persona is so good
that the people around you don'teven wanna hear Correct. What's
really happened. Like, you maynot even get you may not even
get to tell your side of thestory ever because their their

(37:17):
persona is so good.
People go, they just dismissyou. That's just it's just not
possible. Correct. And and allthe while they're they're
sabotaging the relationship.And, you know, we we talk about
departure departure.
I I really do think somethingneeds to be said about that as
well with covert narcissists.Oftentimes in narcissistic

(37:39):
circles, talk about somethingcalled the discard. And the
discard is where the narcissistjust one day goes, okay, I'm
leaving. Bye. And leaves you.
And and you've been working atthis relationship, and they've
they're they're emotionally donewith you, so they just
physically walk away. And overtnarcissists do that. A covert

(37:59):
narcissist more often than notwill not leave you. Now they
will they will divorce youemotionally. So you you're in
the same you're you're in thesame house.
You're sharing the same space.And they will they will
emotionally remove you fromtheir life if you were ever in
there to begin with anyways. Butthere there is this idea of the
discard, and they discard youemotionally, and you are left

(38:23):
living in the same house withthis person who wants
emotionally absolutely nothingto do with you. Right. And and
and if the relationship ends,when it comes to covert
narcissists, they will pushevery button you have so that
you end the relationship insteadof them.
Why? Because you gotta go backto this public persona is

(38:46):
absolutely everything. I knowwhen I, I told my ex that I'd
wanted a divorce, At first, shekinda was agreeable. Like, this
is just painful. So I don't Idon't wanna go do this anymore.
Then she talked to my parents.And after she talked to my
parents and she realized thatshe could be the victim in this

(39:07):
and that there was going therewas something to win on the
other side of this, it allchanged. Now, oh, I don't wanna
get married. I don't wanna getdivorced. And and she ran this
victim card and she's continuingto do that five years later.
And and and then when youdivorce, you're the aggressor.
You're the crazy one. You're theone who's leaving them. You're

(39:29):
the one who's leaving theirfamily, and they get to play the
victim to this crowd of thispublic that's watching on as
this takes place. And again, youget blamed for it and they look
great.
So I personally believe thatmost of the time, the covert
narcissist will not leave you.They will push you to the point

(39:50):
where you leave them. Andwhether they say they're doing
it or not, they generally won't,they are trying to sabotage the
relationship with you from dayone.

Padideh Jafari (40:00):
One hundred percent. I agree with that. I
think also, we often say thatthe covert narcissist is usually
female. What female do and I'veseen this through my practice,
John is that they will push,push, push, like you said, the
buttons. And then they will geta restraining order.

(40:20):
So they'll come into youroffice. Instead of asking for a
divorce first, they ask for therestraining order. But they're
not the victim. They're theaggressor. And I want to just
say here, this is, again, AmberHeard, right?
Like, she's filming him thinkingthat she's going to use this
against him when all the whileshe's just pushing buttons.

(40:41):
Listen, I'm happily married. Iknow what to say to push my
husband's buttons. I knowexactly what to say. Wives know
that.
We just generally do. Husbandsknow that, too. I'm not just
saying it's a wife thing. But ifyou're pushing their buttons to
get a reaction and then you pullout your iPhone and start
filming them, there's somethingincredibly wrong with you. I

(41:06):
actually had a couple of yearsago a client that did that.
And so she came in with theiPhone and she was like, look,
look, look, look, look what he'sdoing. Look what he's saying.
He's yelling at me. He'sscreaming at me. He's calling me
all these names.
And she was so aggressive in theway that she wanted me to
believe her story that I justwas like, Okay, this woman

(41:27):
sounds like Amber Heard. And sothat was my gauge. And I said,
well, let's go back for aminute. Where did this all
start? How did this start?
Oh, well, I hid his phone. Isaid, you hid his phone? I said,
why did you hide his phone? Oh,well I was going through it and
then I hid it and so he couldn'tfind his phone but he knew that

(41:48):
I took it because I had taken itpreviously. And then she says,
John, he was going to work.
So I said, you expected him toleave without his phone to work.
And he's like a sales guy, so hedefinitely needs his phone. And
he knows that you've taken itbecause this is a pattern with
you guys. And now you're tellingme that he's screaming and

(42:11):
yelling. Not that that makes itOkay.
But like, so what did you do?And so I knew right then, I'm
like, this woman hasnarcissistic tendencies. Because
I never say that they're anarcissist because I'm not a
psychotherapist. I don't havethat degree. But I said, I hear
what you're saying.
It does not rise to the level ofdomestic violence. But I do

(42:36):
think that a different firmwould be a better fit for you.
And whenever you say that tothem, they just dig in their
heels even more. Like, why? Why?
I want you. And it's like, Idon't want to represent you, and
I will not represent you. And sothat's the thing is exactly what
you said. Very much want youthat's what reactive abuse is.

(43:01):
Reactive abuse is like you pushan innocent person to the brink
of snapping.
And they snap because even goodpeople have their limits, and
they should.

Jon McKenney (43:11):
Absolutely.

Padideh Jafari (43:12):
They should have boundaries. And

Jon McKenney (43:15):
then when they lash out, you cry foul and say
they're abusing me.

Padideh Jafari (43:21):
Correct. And you film it, too. A lot of times,
we'll have now they'll film it.They'll be like, look, look,
look. This is what's happening.
Or they'll tape it. But you'reonly hearing half of the story.
And most people, to your point,don't ever care, or they're too
busy, or they just don't give adamn to say, like, what like,
how did this person gettriggered? Like, oh, you're

(43:43):
purposely triggering them? Like,she's saying to you, like, look,
I'm looking for my ex insupermarkets.
And you're going, wait a minute.I mean, I'm surprised that you
didn't get triggered then. I'msure you did. But that would be
so hurtful to hear from someonetwenty five years into the

(44:04):
marriage. Oh, And say, okay.
So let me get this straight.You're actually sleeping with
me, but you're thinking aboutsomeone else, clearly. So Yeah.
It's just all this is soheartbreaking.

Jon McKenney (44:17):
One of the things you you'd mentioned also, you
talked about the financial abuseof covert narcissists. Can you
describe some of that? Becausefinancial abuse often comes with
narcissistic abuse becausenarcissists tend to find a ton
of value in money. I know thatwas the case with my ex. She was
all about money.

(44:38):
She would even go to the storeand try and buy cheap stuff so
that, again, we could save moneyon this or that, and then go
spend extravagantly on otherthings or the kids or something
like that and spend money wedidn't have. So talk about the
financial abuse as youunderstand it from covert
narcissists.

Padideh Jafari (44:58):
Well, I can give you a great example of this
because it literally justhappened this past weekend.
Financial abuse sometimes goesalong with litigation abuse. But
financial abuse is basically thecovert narcissist wants to get
money. Their god is money. SoI've never met a covert

(45:24):
narcissist that wasn'tinterested in money because that
money goes with status.
It goes with their publicpersona, like you said. They
have nicer cars. They have thebig houses. They do the facials
every week. They do the Botox.
They do all of the things,right? Because their outside is

(45:45):
more important to them than whatgoes inside. And so they're not
seeking therapy. They're notgoing to wellness retreats.
They're not doing any of thatstuff.
They're just fixing the outside.And so I can give you a great
example of this. This pastweekend, we were at Wisconsin

(46:05):
Madison, like I said. And myhusband was very adamant that we
wanted to focus on our middlechild who was graduating because
we don't get a lot of time withhim. Right?
He was graduating. Now he'sgoing to be starting a job and
all that stuff. So his ex said,no, I want the other two kids to

(46:26):
come. And the other two kids arein different states. And my
husband said, look, I'm notpaying for this because hotels
were $650 a night, John.

Jon McKenney (46:36):
Oh, yeah. They raise them up during graduation.

Padideh Jafari (46:39):
Right. So I had booked it a month in advance.
And one night there was $650which is a lot. I'm a lawyer. My
husband works as well infinancial services.
But that's still a lot of money.So he was adamant, like, I don't
want to spend that kind ofmoney. And so he told his boys

(47:01):
that. He said, dad can't do itright now. And they understood
it.
And they said, well, mom's goingto take care of it. And he said,
Okay, great. And so we getthere. Everything is great.
After graduation, she had notplanned a single thing, not a
lunch for her son, nothing.
Literally had to go fromrestaurant to restaurant to
restaurant to find somewhere toeat. I had booked something a

(47:26):
little bit later, like at 07:00,just because I wasn't sure after
graduation if she wanted to takethem. So I was being really
respectful. So we literally gorestaurant to restaurant to
restaurant. It's like 90 degreeweather.
Whenever we get there,everything's good. This is the
first time she's kind of satwith us. And we're talking.

(47:49):
We're laughing. The boys arethey're on edge.
You can tell that they're onedge. But they're sort of like,
Okay, the parents are finallygetting along. And I offer to
get her a drink and the wholething. So I didn't say this out
loud because I wanted to youalways hope for the best. Sunday

(48:11):
night, before we got on ourflight, she sends an email, this
long email, to our youngest sonbecause we are no contact with
her.
And says, send this to yourfather. And what it said was,
I'm so glad that we were able tosit down and have lunch together
for the first time ever. Pleasegive me some money for the

(48:36):
airfare, the food, the, hotel.You know, and, you know, this
would be really great if youwould give me some money. And it
would show that your sons thatyou are supporting them.
Now, my husband didn't tell methis until Monday when we got

(48:57):
back to California because heknows I would have been stewing
the whole time I'm on theflight. But he said, I wanted to
tell you that she wrote this andshe sent it through our youngest
son. And am I a bad dad? ShouldI give her something? And I
said, look, you've paid fouryears of college tuition at a
very expensive school.

(49:17):
It's like $90,000 a year, John.You've paid $1,600 a month in
housing. You paid every month$550 for food. You've done

Jon McKenney (49:28):
all of And she's asking for airfare.

Padideh Jafari (49:31):
Right, some money. And usually, here's the
thing. We're very generous. Andpeople that deal with
narcissists or we're married tonarcissists, they're usually
really good people. They'reusually empathic people.
They're sympathetic. And it'slike, yeah, let me give her a
couple but my husband's like, ifI give her $500 she'll say

(49:53):
that's a slap in her face. If Igive her 1,000 it's not going to
be enough. Like, no amount ofmoney would be enough because
it's not like she even producedreceipts. I had already given
our oldest son $400 towards hishotel room because I he's 26, he

(50:14):
works.
And I was like, well, let me atleast pay half of it. And so I
had already done that. I didn'tneed her to sort of be policing
this stuff. But all that to sayis this is just one example,
that they are always pricegouging you. They are always
price gouging for whateverreason.

(50:37):
I can give you another example.My ex husband was unemployed. We
had just gotten a five fortyfive that he wanted. I did not
want this five forty five. Ilove BMWs.
But I was like, we cannot affordthis car. We were about to
leave. We had leased the car.We're about to leave off the

(50:59):
lot. There was a five fifty infront of us.
He goes, we should have gottenthe five fifty. Now, there is a
huge difference between a fiveforty five and a five fifty,
right, price wise. And they'rejust never happy. It's this
insatiable appetite for materialthings. For you know, I need all

(51:19):
three boys to be there to takethe pictures for Instagram and
Facebook.
Because I'm mother of the year.But I have not spent 1p on
tuition and housing. Nobodyknows that because who could you
tell that to? Well, you can'tadvertise that. But look at all
these pictures that I have withmy kids.

(51:40):
And so it's just this perpetualneed for this outside image. And
it's at the victim's financialexpense, though.

Jon McKenney (51:52):
And money is also control and they like to be able
to narcissists on the wholewhether overt or covert, tend to
like to be able to control theirvictims and particularly
financially. Know when we firstgot married, I took care of the
bills in the house and we haddebt and we were within a couple

(52:13):
of years debt free. And shesaid, you know what, I've got a
really hard time with that. Wantto do that. I just can't know
what's not being spent and notbeing spent.
And from that moment on, wewould incur debt. And and it was
frustrating. And even even tothe point where, like, towards
the end, the last four or fiveyears, she would kind of obsess

(52:35):
over my credit card. But why whydid you go to AutoZone? Well, I
bought a water pump for thekid's car.
Like, I'm going and having agood time with my Visa over at
AutoZone. You know? She andshe'd go through my credit card
statements meticulously. What'sthis for? What's that for?
What's this for? What's thatfor? And then and and this

(52:56):
happened all the time. So I canremember, you know, once it came
time to divorce, this personwho's meticulously ridiculous
with with my credit card andobsesses over it. And I'm pretty
certain that we've got you know,I've got a maybe a $3,500
balance on the card at the time.

(53:18):
And I thought she was kind ofriding the same thing on her
credit card. And then when thedivorce came and all the
paperwork was in front of me,her credit card debt was
$20,000.

Padideh Jafari (53:29):
Oh my goodness.

Jon McKenney (53:30):
Yes. And and, again, I I was responsible for
half of that half of that in thedivorce. On top on top of that,
I have some older cars andthings like that, and she would
talk about me to my childrenabout how I spend all of our
family's money on my cars. I Iremember sitting down with one

(53:51):
of them and going, okay. Let'shere's here's the math on my
cars.
You know? I drive old cars. Theparts are cheap. Here's what
we're spending on your mother'scar monthly in a car payment,
and hers is was ridiculouslyhigh, compared to mine. So they
not only abuse you financially,they'll accuse you of doing the

(54:12):
financial abuse and then tellyour family and everybody else
around you that you're thefinancial abuser.
So so these kinds of thingshappen too, and put it all
together, and you have one verydifficult person to manage. And,
again, the most difficult thingI think about a covert
narcissist is this. It is aprivate battle that you wind up
fighting by yourself. Andoftentimes, the people around

(54:37):
you who you think love you willnot believe you, And it'll drive
you insane.

Padideh Jafari (54:45):
Right. I mean, we know that it drives them
insane because we both havepeople that reach out to us that
have committed suicide, haveattempted suicide. We have a
mom. Her daughter committedsuicide because her ex was a
malignant narcissist. I mean, itjust goes on and on and on.

(55:07):
And so if you're listening todayand you think, let me make this
work with my narcissist, believeme, there is a life that they
are having behind your back thatyou have no idea what is going
on. You have no idea. I mean,and it's not a little thing.
It's not like even what Johnsaid, like a couple thousand

(55:30):
dollars here and there. Well,mine was 3,800.
I thought maybe she carries.It's like $20. I mean, $20.

Jon McKenney (55:37):
Got off easy compared to some I know. And
some are hundreds of thousandsof dollars in debt. Some are
millions of dollars in debt fromthe spending of some of the the
narcissists. It it can beridiculous. You know?
Dollars 20,000 is an awful lotof money to me, but in the grand
scheme of things, I perhaps gotoff easy compared to some.

Padideh Jafari (55:58):
Yeah, and then once you file for the divorce,
then they will financially abuseyou through the court system.
California is a very slow courtsystem. It takes six months to
two or three years. With acovert narcissist, it could take
five years to get divorced andget all the finances together.
So it's going to be verydifficult.

(56:21):
They do love money. I think theyactually worship money

Jon McKenney (56:26):
I would disagree.

Padideh Jafari (56:28):
Incestuous way. And so I know for a fact even
yeah. I'm just thinking of somethings, John. And I'm like, I
should not say it because it'sso scary.

Jon McKenney (56:46):
The stories swirl, that's for sure.

Padideh Jafari (56:49):
Yeah, but what they will do, what they will
have their spouses do for money,it's really bad. So I just want
to caution people that if you'rethinking of leaving, you need to
make your escape and not tellthem you're leaving. Because if

(57:11):
you tell them you're leaving,they'll turn on the charm again.
And they'll promise to go totherapy, like John said, and all
the things. But these peopledon't change.
Only get worse as they And thatis actually a fact. That's
actually a study came out thatsaid that narcissists actually
get worse as they age, notbetter.

Jon McKenney (57:31):
Yeah, that doesn't surprise me. Experience was
this. And again, I was fightingfor her and trying to speak the
truth to her. For every truthyou give them about themselves,
they cover it with a lie. Truth,lie.
Truth, lie. Truth, lie. Theyalways cover the truth with a
lie. And somebody who buildstheir life on deception and lies

(57:56):
is is is not improving. They'regetting worse.
So that's why over time, the thedeception is worth the lie
worse. The lies get worse, andyou ultimately have a person
who's ridiculously difficult toto even live with. And Right.
It's it's it it winds up andand, you know, you talk about
divorce and things like that.The the sadder part of it, I

(58:19):
think, for covert narcissistsparticularly is they have to go
through it alone.
And the divorce also, when theyget to that point where they
pull the plug, like the the lastbutton has been pushed. For me,
the last button was when my expretended she had cancer. When
they push that last button andyou go, I got it. I gotta get

(58:39):
the hell out of here. I can't dothis anymore.
You are at your absoluteemotionally lowest point where
you have to go through this thisscenario and this situation that
requires the most emotionalenergy to endure and to
negotiate so that you can getfree, you wind up not having the

(59:01):
kind of energy perhaps somebodyelse might have to go through
it.

Padideh Jafari (59:06):
Right. Mean, divorce is hard for anyone, but
if you're divorcing anarcissist, it's a million times
harder, and especially if you'regoing through custody and all
the things that we see in ourpractice. So well, I think this
was insightful. I hope it wasinsightful.

Jon McKenney (59:22):
Really was.

Padideh Jafari (59:23):
And so I'm so glad that you are done with that
relationship, John. I mean, asyour friend, it just it's so
painful to listen to you talkabout the nuances in the story,
some of the stories I haven'theard before. And so I just
encourage people to make a planand escape these relationships

(59:44):
because the aging narcissist isbrutal to deal with. I

Jon McKenney (59:49):
appreciate that. And the good thing for me is
that I have that angst inside meanymore. I don't have that
feeling. I've kind of moved onfrom it, and it is what it is.
And I have a a new life that'simmeasurably better, than that.
And, and that that life isavailable to And, there is
another side to this if you'rein it, and as I'm sure many of

(01:00:11):
you are who are listening tothis, it does get better. It
does take time, but it it is itis worth it, and, and you will
come out on the other side withnothing else. If if you get
nothing else from it, you getpeace without question. So thank
you for the time, Padida. Youknow, this was this was a really
good conversation.
I hope that people as theylisten, to what we describe and

(01:00:32):
the stories can identify andknow beyond a shadow of a doubt
the kinds of person or the kindof person they might be dealing
with. So, John McKenney here atthe Narcissist Abuse Recovery
Channel and my friend, PaditaJafari, my dear friend, I really
do appreciate you and can't waitto see you, next month. I'm

(01:00:53):
really looking forward to thatand, I hope everybody has a
wonderful day.

Padideh Jafari (01:00:57):
Thank you. Bye bye.

Voiceover (01:00:59):
Thank you for listening to the Narcissist
Abuse Recovery Channel. Be sureto follow and subscribe wherever
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(01:01:20):
Podcast. The guest's views,thoughts, and opinions expressed
are their own.
The information presented is forgeneral informational purposes
only and is not intended to belegal advice. The co hosts are
not licensed therapists. Seekprofessional help as information
is often state specific. TheNarcissist Abuse Recovery

(01:01:40):
Channel is produced in studiosin California and Georgia.