March 17, 2025 • 24 mins
We dive deep with Brian Sampson, founder of Plug Technologies, exploring how businesses can tap into top-tier Latin American talent to scale effectively while navigating today's changing hiring landscape.
• Brian relocated to Argentina to build a tech company from scratch, scaling to 80 employees
• Nearshore hiring (same time zone regions) offers 40-60% cost savings compared to US hiring
• Latin American talent brings unique advantages beyond cost savings - adaptability, direct feedback, and comfort with ambiguity
• Cultural differences between regions significantly impact work quality - Asia excels with precise instructions while Latin America thrives with ambiguity
• Latin American workers are accustomed to volatility, making them excellent problem-solvers and adaptable team members
• Different Latin American countries offer varying risk/reward profiles for hiring
• Start small with platforms like Fiverr or Upwork before scaling to agency partnerships
• Entrepreneurship requires resilience - "I've been punched in the face a lot as an entrepreneur"
• Success comes from clarity of priorities: "If you have 10 priorities, you have zero priorities"
If you're interested in learning more about nearshore hiring, visit Plug Technologies at plugtech.co or email Brian directly at brian@plugg.co
📢 Don’t forget to LIKE, SUBSCRIBE, and TURN ON NOTIFICATIONS for more insights on Latin America’s growing tech scene! 🎧🔥
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Welcome.
Welcome back to another episodeof what it Takes, the podcast,
(00:32):
where we dive into the journeysof entrepreneurs who have built
something from the ground up thewins, the struggles, the
lessons learned along the wayand I'm your host, jamie Seeker.
Today we're talking about whatit takes to build and scale a
business in today's changinghiring landscape.
Our guest, brian Sampson, thefounder and CEO of Plug
Technologies, has a company thathelps US businesses grow by
(00:54):
tapping into their top-tiertalent from Latin America.
Brian isn't just an entrepreneur, he is a hiring expert, and
he's built and scaled threecompanies to over 80 employees.
He's led talent acquisition forsome of Silicon Valley's top
VC-backed startups and evenrelocated to Argentina to build
the foundation for Near Staffing.
But scaling a business isn'tjust about hiring.
(01:17):
It's about hiring the rightpeople, and we know that.
So today we'll talk about whymore companies are looking
beyond borders, how remote workhas transformed the hiring game
and what it really takes tobuild a high performing team.
So if you're a business owner,leader or entrepreneur looking
to grow, this episode is for you, so let's dive in.
Hello, brian.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
Hey, Jamie, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
So let's just start talking about your journey,
because you kind of have, youknow, a really cool one to tell.
So you've built and scaledmultiple companies.
What inspired you to start PlugTechnologies and what problem
were you trying to solve there?
Speaker 2 (01:51):
Yeah, just real quick .
I grew up in the Midwest, endedup in California working for a
bunch of VC funded tech startupsand around all these brilliant
founders and you know differentapps and all sorts of stuff, and
probably like 2015 ish had thebug.
I think I can do this.
I think I can do my own thing.
I didn't come from a family ofentrepreneurs or anything, so
(02:14):
this was a whole world for me,Ended up doing it, what I think
is the semi-safe way, and Iraised money myself.
So I have enormous respect forall the bootstrapping which I've
since done later.
But I did it, you know, withwith some like a safety net of
investor money, ended up, youknow, raising money to build
(02:35):
platforms for fintech companiesso think like the next
generation of banking andlending type of companies and we
put our sales office in SanFrancisco and we needed to put
our developers somewhere.
So it was like, where in theworld should we look at?
And ended up settling onArgentina.
Came home one day, told my wife, hey, what do you think about
(02:57):
moving to Argentina for a while?
And she's like, well, where'sthat?
So we ended up, you know,relocating there.
We went to Buenos Aires, whichis the capital city.
It's like New York City.
You know, for Argentina, about14 million people in the greater
Buenos Aires region, about 40million in the country and we
lived and breathed it.
(03:18):
You know all the volatility.
So there is a lot of amazingthings that I'll talk about in a
second.
But you know, to be authentic,there's a lot of rough things
too.
You know, inflation is quitehigh, so much so they don't have
printed menus.
They've got to like repriceeverything almost daily.
So you'll see stuff in chalk.
You'll see labor strikes andlong queues and a population
(03:42):
that doesn't really trust theirgovernment and long queues and a
population that doesn't reallytrust their government.
But on the other hand you'vegot four-hour dinners where no
one's phone is on the table andthey're talking and building
relationships and the best foodand steak and wine, and
tree-lined streets and oldFrench architecture.
It's absolutely stunning.
(04:02):
So I ended up growing a businessthere from zero to 80 people,
found the office space and thepayroll and set up the finance
and accounting and hired thefirst few engineers and so forth
.
So that kind of got me intothis world.
Later on I ended up in Hawaii,and there's really no easy way
to go from Hawaii to Argentina.
(04:22):
So we started to have some kidstoo and it just didn't make
sense for me to stay in thatworld of constant travel.
So since then I've founded twoother companies that are NIRS
focused and NIRS is the way wetalk about the US working with
Latin America same time zone,and NIRS is really a term about
(04:43):
oceans and time zones.
So you've probably heard ofoffshore.
You might offshore work toIndia or the Philippines and
that's over an ocean.
People are working differenttime zones.
Still a great way to do workOnshore.
The work doesn't leave thecountry Nearshore, you're just
on time zones that are adjacentto you, so nearshore could also
(05:03):
be the Philippines and Australia, right.
So the other companies I builtone was a recruiting focus
business and the other one isPlug Technologies, and Plug has
about 75 people today providingsoftware developers all over
Latin America to US companiesand happy to talk more about
that.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
Yeah, absolutely Well .
You answered probably aboutfive of my questions because I'm
happy to talk more about that.
Yeah, absolutely Well, youanswered probably about five of
my questions because I was goingto educate everybody about the
whole nearshore staffing.
I mean, I don't know that.
A lot of people know that kindof lingo, so that was very good.
But let's just jump right intocost and efficiency then.
So one of the biggest concerns,I think, for businesses is cost
, and I think you know let'stalk a little bit about how near
(05:44):
shore hirings compared tohiring locally in the US in
terms of quality, costeffectiveness, because I think
most people have a generalconception that it could
potentially be cheaper offshoreor you know, looking outsourcing
for that kind of stuff, but Idon't know that they equate
(06:05):
quality and effectiveness andefficiencies and those kinds of
things along with that.
So why don't you talk aboutyour experience and just kind of
your two cents in that area?
Speaker 2 (06:16):
Yeah, that's a great question, A question that we get
all the time.
So I'm an advocate for LatinAmerica, but I think you could
talk to somebody else who'sequally an advocate for Asia,
and that's perfectly fine.
I've never really heard someoneadvocate for Asia without
leading with cost.
Cost is usually the number onedriver for looking at Asian
(06:38):
talent.
I don't think you'll findanywhere cheaper in the world
than Asia.
You know, and generally when wehave conversations, say with,
like, a director of IT or a VPof software engineering, if
they've gotten that far in theircareer, they probably have
worked with India.
And what I've noticed aboutthese conversations like no one
(06:58):
has never worked with India, sothat means they have an opinion.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
Yeah, we're guilty.
We work with we Secret Solution, my company that's tied to this
podcast.
We absolutely do, yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
Yeah, yeah, and I'll tell you, at least with
technology workers and softwaredevelopers, it's a very
polarizing country.
So you either get people thatwill say, my God, it was the
greatest thing ever, jamie, likeI built my whole code base for
like $8.
And you know, it's always aboutyou know this price point and
(07:32):
like what they got out of it.
The other extreme is oh my God,never again.
I will never do that again, anda lot of that has to do with
time zone.
But there's also, you know,some cultural dynamics.
India is a country that's morehierarchical, right, so you
might have a hard timecommunicating directly to the
person doing the work.
There's usually like multiplelayers in between.
(07:55):
The other thing that comes upis if they don't agree with the
direction that you're going, youmight not know about it.
Now, as a startup guy, as anentrepreneur, personally, I like
being told that I'm doingsomething stupid, right, which
is many times every day, right?
So, culturally in Latin America, they're a lot more comfortable
(08:18):
.
You'll see right away, likethis intense passion, right,
especially if you talk tosomebody in Argentina, but same
with Mexico and Venezuela, and Idon't want to generalize this
whole continent, but there's alot of passion in this region.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
Yeah, that's been my experience in working with.
We've worked, I think somebodywas based out of Mexico city
building my website and thecompany wasn't necessarily there
, but my person happened to bethere and, same thing, had no
problem telling me thedirectives and things like that.
Absolutely.
I think that's interesting.
You said that because I nevereven thought of that side of it
(08:52):
is, yes, they're going to giveme what I ask for, but I don't
know what I don't know and Imight not have been asking for
the right thing and they can seeit, but they may not
necessarily give you thatfeedback that I never really
thought of that.
So that's a good, good point.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
Yeah, I think a key word maybe in all this is
ambiguity.
So if you're a manager that hasvery specific instructions,
like this is exactly what I wantand exactly how I want it to be
done I think age is a greatspot for you.
But if there's some maybeambiguity like you're not
totally sure you think you wantto go in this direction or you
(09:27):
think this is the goal, like forme, marketing isn't where I
grew up in.
I kind of know enough to bedangerous, but I'm hiring an
expert.
So I would love for them totell me hey, here's some other
considerations, here's someoptions, here's my
recommendation, here's what itmight cost if you do this,
here's the trade-off if you dothat.
(09:48):
That is like music to my ears,right, oh?
Speaker 1 (09:51):
absolutely, or what you're asking for is outdated.
How about have you consideredthis?
And it's like yes, thank you,yes.
Speaker 2 (09:58):
That's really interesting.
Speaker 1 (09:59):
Well, and so that's good.
That's actually really goodadvice too.
So if you're already inbusiness and you're looking at
going, you know, to all thesedifferent areas or regions, I
think you're right.
In my experience and I don'tthink it's just you and I having
these experiences I mean, wework with a lot of clients as
well, and you've clearly been inthis industry I think there are
very specific characteristicsto different regions that you'll
(10:20):
find, and I never reallythought to make the decision
based off of that.
And I've been outsourcing forthe last decade since we've had
our company.
I mean, yes, I did start offbuilding all of my marketing
tools and my website, everythingin India, and we've worked in
multiple different areas.
I've had companies in LatinAmerica as well, asia, I think,
(10:40):
all that kind of stuff.
So everything that you'resaying were things that I've
learned along the way, but notnecessarily equating making
decisions based off of thosethings.
So I love that we're talking alittle bit more than just oh,
you're going to save money ifyou, you know, hire, because I
think that's really maybe wherebusiness owners start.
That's the thing that'simportant to us.
But, you know, at the end ofthe day, it may cost us more if
(11:04):
we have to continue to, if thework isn't what we need it to be
Right.
And so let's talk a little bitabout the hiring process then,
because I think you know what isa successful nearshore hiring
strategy.
Look like You're not justthinking about cost.
How should companies approachrecruiting and onboarding talent
from outside the US?
Speaker 2 (11:23):
Yeah, that's a great question, Jamie.
So just to fully answer thelast question about cost, so
generally in Latin Americayou'll probably be somewhere
like 40 to 60 percent less thanwhat you might pay in the US.
You get a high cost city likeSan Francisco, more.
If you're in Oklahoma City, alittle bit less, but all in all
kind of 40 to 60% is what youmight say.
Speaker 1 (11:44):
So when you?
Speaker 2 (11:45):
think about hiring in Latin America, the mindset
you've got to have as a businessowner is going to be
fundamentally different thanmaybe what we tend to think when
we outsource or offshore ornearshore.
And I think the biggest mistakethese companies will make is
they'll say things like ouroutsourced resources or like
(12:06):
like we're going to hire somelow cost resources, like these
are people, right, they're partof your team, so don't think
about it anything other than youjust happen to be hiring a team
member in a different place andthey're a living, breathing
human, just like somebody youmight hire you know, if you live
in Cincinnati or Dallas orwhatever.
(12:27):
So you want to give them thesame respect and courtesy and
onboarding.
That's really important.
The thing that really attractedme to them and this goes with
like the hiring but also theonboarding part of it goes with
like the hiring but also theonboarding part of it.
So, as I talked at the verybeginning of the pod, there's
volatility in Latin America andthat on the headline, sounds
(12:51):
scary.
But go beneath the headline Ifyou're an entrepreneur or a
business owner who wouldn't wantsomebody who's flexible,
adaptable, used to solvingproblems, used to overcoming
adversity.
I know a lot of CEOs, and Ican't think of anybody who
wouldn't want that.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
Especially if you're a startup.
Right, Because that's all it is.
That's the type of environmentyou're in, and so just doing a
lot with a little, making thingswork with what you've got yeah,
absolutely.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
Yeah, so you're working with a population in
Latin America that is used toall kinds of chaos, right, like
stuff that might freak us out,and it's like a once in a
lifetime event.
It's a Tuesday for them, right?
So they're used to dealing withchaos, getting over it, solving
the problem, moving to the nextone.
(13:43):
So that means your onboardingcan be like a lot of startups,
onboarding where it's not superbaked out, it's not like a 14
step process and this is exactlywhat you need to do.
And I love that because I'mprobably like a lot of
entrepreneurs, like I'm used tojust kind of waking up.
I'm OK with a blank whiteboardand kind of figuring things out,
(14:06):
and they are too.
So you don't have to stress somuch about the onboarding
process.
I would.
I would try to have some sortof targets and goals, but again,
like this is the ambiguity partof it.
Like you can have someambiguity because they're okay
with that.
You're not going to like stressthem out or paralyze them.
Now, when it comes to hiring,we're in a nice position where
(14:28):
we've had a chance to work allacross Latin America and it's
very important to know that thiscontinent, this region, it's
not a one size fits all.
So, like Mexico and Chile andArgentina and Brazil and Bolivia
, these are all like wildlydifferent countries and they all
have different nuances.
(14:49):
You know, from being able toget hardware in and out of the
country to develop versusdeveloping.
The more developed a country is, the higher the price point.
So even think Asia Singapore isconnected to Malaysia, but the
cost differentials are massive.
Right One's developed Asia, butthe cost differentials are
massive.
Right One's developed, highlydeveloped, and one is still
(15:14):
developing.
So think Central America you'vegot Nicaragua and a neighbor is
Costa Rica.
Costa Rica much more developed,nicaragua developing, but
there's some really interestingroles that are on full throttle
right now in Nicaragua andthat's where the arbitrage
exists for founders that mighthave a little more risk in their
bones and we tend to, becauseyou can get a cost arbitrage
(15:37):
opportunity there and you've gethighly fluent English speaking
people that are motivated, canbe adaptable, overcome certain
things, but it's not as stable,say, as Costa Rica, right?
So as entrepreneurs, we kind ofroll with it, we figure things
out, we're a little riskier.
So this is where, if you'reopen to some of the riskier
(15:58):
countries, you can reallybenefit from that.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
And really it comes down to finding the right person
.
So in any given environment youcan have the most stable
environment and bring on thewrong person and you're in just
as much trouble.
And you can, you know.
On the flip side of that, tryone of the riskier you know, or
perceivingly riskier areas, oreven you know proven riskier
areas that you would say, andyou just you find, you find your
(16:23):
golden, you know.
And so I think what it what thatcomes back to is I guess it
doesn't really matter what youronboarding process necessarily
looks like but that, a you haveone and B you incorporate the
same type of process with yourinternal employees as you do
wherever you're getting peoplefrom, because, at the end of the
day, they are people.
(16:43):
They're there to do a job foryou.
And, yes, there are things thatmay be different, but at the
end of the day, they are people.
They're there to do a job foryou.
And, yes, there are things thatmay be different, but at the
end of the day, differentpersonalities and different
people need different thingsanyway, no matter where you get
them from.
And so, as long as you have agreat process and you do kind of
cast a vision, give themexpectations, resources to be
successful, then they're goingto have just about the same, if
(17:05):
not greater, success rate thananybody that you bring on board.
So I think that's kind of whatI'm taking from this.
I know that I've had a reallygreat experience near and
offshore and obviously in, youknow, here in the United States
as well.
We've worked with people allover the world in fact, and and
I think everything that you'resaying to me is at least true
(17:26):
for my experience, my firsthandexperience as well it's also
been my same experience forclients that we work with and
things that we're seeing, trendsin the industry, why people
work in different areas.
I think you had some reallyvery specific insight, just
because you're in the industryand just kind of said things so
simply that I'm like, oh yeah, Ireally never thought about that
, but that's actually I will nowknow from now on, making
(17:49):
decisions kind of, where I cankind of play that risk factor or
take into considerationdifferent things, and I have
different clients that needdifferent things, right, like,
hey, the top priority for me isjust excellence, like we need to
get this job done correctly,like I don't really care.
I have other clients that arelike cost, I don't really care.
I have other clients that arelike cost, I don't really care,
what we need to do, it's thecost, the level of whatever we
(18:10):
get or whatever we do, andalthough they may not be
simultaneous, at least in theirminds they are.
But I can take that decisionand run with it.
So I think that's as a businessowner and people you know,
having a company that works witha lot of decision makers like
that, that is something that I'mtaking away.
But I wanted to ask you, as thepodcast is rightfully named,
(18:32):
what it takes, what advice wouldyou give to business owners who
are hesitant about hiringbeyond the US borders but, like
want to grow their teamseffectively as well?
And to tack on to that oursignature question to which is
like what it?
What does it take?
What does it take to be able tomake those kinds of decisions?
When to consider, you know, allthat kind of stuff?
Kind of a loaded question, butI think you know you've kept up
(18:55):
with my conversational style.
I have to get them in becauseyou've been answering everything
for me, anything that I wantedto ask you.
So what last you know hurrah doyou have to give to our
listeners right now?
Speaker 2 (19:08):
Well, I appreciate the mindshare that we've had on
this pod, so I'll take these astwo different questions.
One is how an entrepreneurmight think about making their
first hire ever outside of theirborders.
The second is justentrepreneurship what I've gone
through.
So I think there's like levelsto this.
The first level is Fiverr andUpwork are great ways to make
(19:33):
mistakes Because, trust me, youwill make mistakes with hiring,
just like you'd make mistakes ifyou're in Dallas and you hire
somebody down the street.
Right Happens to the best of us.
Hiring is never perfect, so Iwould just try to mitigate your
risk.
You know, do like a one weekproject, like what is a task
that you need outsourced, pay 50bucks on Fiverr or 500 bucks on
(19:57):
Upwork for somebody to get itdone and then you just keep
getting better and better andbetter.
Try to take the lesson I sharedearlier about if it's like a
super specific task you couldlike.
The more specific you make it,probably the less you have to
pay for it, and the moreambiguous it is, the more you
might need to increase yourbudget.
But again, diy, upwork, fiverras you start to grow your own
(20:22):
business a little bit.
That's what agencies are for.
Plug Technologies could be anagency for you to consider and
you give a job spec or a jobdescription like this is what
I'm trying to solve for.
Can you guys go find it?
And an agency like that willtake care of all the compliance
and the payroll and the sourcing.
They just give you a short listof candidates with a clean bill
(20:45):
rate like this is the billingrate per hour or the billing
rate per month and they takecare of everything else and then
you get this candidate that youcan interview and hire.
Generally speaking, from anentrepreneurship standpoint,
like what does it take?
I've gotten punched in the facea lot as an entrepreneur.
I've gotten punched in the facea lot as an entrepreneur.
(21:06):
I've gone through, you know,companies that really struggled
and somehow we figured it out.
So I think the biggest advice Imight say is I've been doing
this now for about 10 years asan entrepreneur, started with
investor money.
The current companies I haveare all my own money, but I've
told myself and this is true I'mnot working for someone else's
(21:27):
retirement.
I'm are all my own money, butI've told myself and this is
true I'm not working for someoneelse's retirement, I'm working
for my own.
And that's like a veryliberating thing you can tell
yourself becauseentrepreneurship is compounding.
So, like everything, you learn,all the mistakes you make you
get to take for yourself andthen apply it to the next day
and the next day to grow thevaluation of your business.
And just be clear on prioritiesyou know if you have 10
(21:49):
priorities, you have zeropriorities.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
I love that and I think it's the same kind of
thing we were saying about.
If we want people that work forus to be successful, we set
clear expectations, we give themvision and we got to do the
same thing for us right.
But also, you got to be alittle tough, you got to be able
to take a hit and that is aevery.
You know, I've beeninterviewing people for a while
(22:11):
now and I asked that question,but that just seems to be like
resiliency and talking aboutjust you have got to be able to
keep going.
That is something that I thinkeveryone says across the board,
that you don't necessarily thinkof how hard that road is.
You think you know.
Whatever it is, people havetheir own preconceived notions
about what their experience inbusiness ownership is going to
(22:32):
be like, and I think it'sdifferent If you have investors.
It is a different journey thanyou know starting up on your own
and trying to figure out yourown funding for things.
But at the same time, what bothof them have in common is it's
not if it's when you're going toface challenges you're going to
like you can't make up some ofthe stuff that happens to you in
ownership, right and the levelof responsibility and weight
(22:54):
that you carry is worth notingand it's showing how, hey, we
didn't just wake up and get here.
You know we had to keep goingwhen things looked really bad.
We've been through pandemicsand recessions and times that
were really great, and you knowyou take the good with the bad
and you just keep keep movingforward.
(23:14):
So I just want to thank you,brian.
This has been such aninsightful conversation.
But before we wrap up, ifanybody is interested in finding
you or looking at you know yourcompany or North Shore or near
shore there's, there's thatSouthern California girl that's
coming out Dear Shore hiringthings like that.
How can people find you ifthey're looking for you?
Speaker 2 (23:32):
Yeah, thanks, jamie, if they could go to Plug
Technologies.
So the website there isplugpluggtech, or they can email
me directly.
And that's simply BrianB-R-I-A-N at plugplugg and
that's simply Brian B-R-I-A-N atplug.
P-l-u-g-g.
Speaker 1 (23:47):
Great.
Thank you so much, brian, and,to our listeners, thanks for
joining us for another episodeof what it Takes.
If you found value in today'sconversation the way I have,
please be sure to subscribe,leave a review and share this
episode with a fellowentrepreneur, and we'll be back
soon with more stories ofresilience, strategy and success
(24:08):
.
So until then, keep pushingforward and building what it
takes.
Welcome.
Welcome back to another episodeof what it Takes, the podcast,
(00:32):
where we dive into the journeysof entrepreneurs who have built
something from the ground up thewins, the struggles, the
lessons learned along the wayand I'm your host, jamie Seeker.
Today we're talking about whatit takes to build and scale a
business in today's changinghiring landscape.
Our guest, brian Sampson, thefounder and CEO of Plug
Technologies, has a company thathelps US businesses grow by
(00:54):
tapping into their top-tiertalent from Latin America.
Brian isn't just an entrepreneur, he is a hiring expert, and
he's built and scaled threecompanies to over 80 employees.
He's led talent acquisition forsome of Silicon Valley's top
VC-backed startups and evenrelocated to Argentina to build
the foundation for Near Staffing.
But scaling a business isn'tjust about hiring.
(01:17):
It's about hiring the rightpeople, and we know that.
So today we'll talk about whymore companies are looking
beyond borders, how remote workhas transformed the hiring game
and what it really takes tobuild a high performing team.
So if you're a business owner,leader or entrepreneur looking
to grow, this episode is for you, so let's dive in.
Hello, brian.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
Hey, Jamie, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
So let's just start talking about your journey,
because you kind of have, youknow, a really cool one to tell.
So you've built and scaledmultiple companies.
What inspired you to start PlugTechnologies and what problem
were you trying to solve there?
Speaker 2 (01:51):
Yeah, just real quick .
I grew up in the Midwest, endedup in California working for a
bunch of VC funded tech startupsand around all these brilliant
founders and you know differentapps and all sorts of stuff, and
probably like 2015 ish had thebug.
I think I can do this.
I think I can do my own thing.
I didn't come from a family ofentrepreneurs or anything, so
(02:14):
this was a whole world for me,Ended up doing it, what I think
is the semi-safe way, and Iraised money myself.
So I have enormous respect forall the bootstrapping which I've
since done later.
But I did it, you know, withwith some like a safety net of
investor money, ended up, youknow, raising money to build
(02:35):
platforms for fintech companiesso think like the next
generation of banking andlending type of companies and we
put our sales office in SanFrancisco and we needed to put
our developers somewhere.
So it was like, where in theworld should we look at?
And ended up settling onArgentina.
Came home one day, told my wife, hey, what do you think about
(02:57):
moving to Argentina for a while?
And she's like, well, where'sthat?
So we ended up, you know,relocating there.
We went to Buenos Aires, whichis the capital city.
It's like New York City.
You know, for Argentina, about14 million people in the greater
Buenos Aires region, about 40million in the country and we
lived and breathed it.
(03:18):
You know all the volatility.
So there is a lot of amazingthings that I'll talk about in a
second.
But you know, to be authentic,there's a lot of rough things
too.
You know, inflation is quitehigh, so much so they don't have
printed menus.
They've got to like repriceeverything almost daily.
So you'll see stuff in chalk.
You'll see labor strikes andlong queues and a population
(03:42):
that doesn't really trust theirgovernment and long queues and a
population that doesn't reallytrust their government.
But on the other hand you'vegot four-hour dinners where no
one's phone is on the table andthey're talking and building
relationships and the best foodand steak and wine, and
tree-lined streets and oldFrench architecture.
It's absolutely stunning.
(04:02):
So I ended up growing a businessthere from zero to 80 people,
found the office space and thepayroll and set up the finance
and accounting and hired thefirst few engineers and so forth
.
So that kind of got me intothis world.
Later on I ended up in Hawaii,and there's really no easy way
to go from Hawaii to Argentina.
(04:22):
So we started to have some kidstoo and it just didn't make
sense for me to stay in thatworld of constant travel.
So since then I've founded twoother companies that are NIRS
focused and NIRS is the way wetalk about the US working with
Latin America same time zone,and NIRS is really a term about
(04:43):
oceans and time zones.
So you've probably heard ofoffshore.
You might offshore work toIndia or the Philippines and
that's over an ocean.
People are working differenttime zones.
Still a great way to do workOnshore.
The work doesn't leave thecountry Nearshore, you're just
on time zones that are adjacentto you, so nearshore could also
(05:03):
be the Philippines and Australia, right.
So the other companies I builtone was a recruiting focus
business and the other one isPlug Technologies, and Plug has
about 75 people today providingsoftware developers all over
Latin America to US companiesand happy to talk more about
that.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
Yeah, absolutely Well .
You answered probably aboutfive of my questions because I'm
happy to talk more about that.
Yeah, absolutely Well, youanswered probably about five of
my questions because I was goingto educate everybody about the
whole nearshore staffing.
I mean, I don't know that.
A lot of people know that kindof lingo, so that was very good.
But let's just jump right intocost and efficiency then.
So one of the biggest concerns,I think, for businesses is cost
, and I think you know let'stalk a little bit about how near
(05:44):
shore hirings compared tohiring locally in the US in
terms of quality, costeffectiveness, because I think
most people have a generalconception that it could
potentially be cheaper offshoreor you know, looking outsourcing
for that kind of stuff, but Idon't know that they equate
(06:05):
quality and effectiveness andefficiencies and those kinds of
things along with that.
So why don't you talk aboutyour experience and just kind of
your two cents in that area?
Speaker 2 (06:16):
Yeah, that's a great question, A question that we get
all the time.
So I'm an advocate for LatinAmerica, but I think you could
talk to somebody else who'sequally an advocate for Asia,
and that's perfectly fine.
I've never really heard someoneadvocate for Asia without
leading with cost.
Cost is usually the number onedriver for looking at Asian
(06:38):
talent.
I don't think you'll findanywhere cheaper in the world
than Asia.
You know, and generally when wehave conversations, say with,
like, a director of IT or a VPof software engineering, if
they've gotten that far in theircareer, they probably have
worked with India.
And what I've noticed aboutthese conversations like no one
(06:58):
has never worked with India, sothat means they have an opinion.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
Yeah, we're guilty.
We work with we Secret Solution, my company that's tied to this
podcast.
We absolutely do, yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
Yeah, yeah, and I'll tell you, at least with
technology workers and softwaredevelopers, it's a very
polarizing country.
So you either get people thatwill say, my God, it was the
greatest thing ever, jamie, likeI built my whole code base for
like $8.
And you know, it's always aboutyou know this price point and
(07:32):
like what they got out of it.
The other extreme is oh my God,never again.
I will never do that again, anda lot of that has to do with
time zone.
But there's also, you know,some cultural dynamics.
India is a country that's morehierarchical, right, so you
might have a hard timecommunicating directly to the
person doing the work.
There's usually like multiplelayers in between.
(07:55):
The other thing that comes upis if they don't agree with the
direction that you're going, youmight not know about it.
Now, as a startup guy, as anentrepreneur, personally, I like
being told that I'm doingsomething stupid, right, which
is many times every day, right?
So, culturally in Latin America, they're a lot more comfortable
(08:18):
.
You'll see right away, likethis intense passion, right,
especially if you talk tosomebody in Argentina, but same
with Mexico and Venezuela, and Idon't want to generalize this
whole continent, but there's alot of passion in this region.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
Yeah, that's been my experience in working with.
We've worked, I think somebodywas based out of Mexico city
building my website and thecompany wasn't necessarily there
, but my person happened to bethere and, same thing, had no
problem telling me thedirectives and things like that.
Absolutely.
I think that's interesting.
You said that because I nevereven thought of that side of it
(08:52):
is, yes, they're going to giveme what I ask for, but I don't
know what I don't know and Imight not have been asking for
the right thing and they can seeit, but they may not
necessarily give you thatfeedback that I never really
thought of that.
So that's a good, good point.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
Yeah, I think a key word maybe in all this is
ambiguity.
So if you're a manager that hasvery specific instructions,
like this is exactly what I wantand exactly how I want it to be
done I think age is a greatspot for you.
But if there's some maybeambiguity like you're not
totally sure you think you wantto go in this direction or you
(09:27):
think this is the goal, like forme, marketing isn't where I
grew up in.
I kind of know enough to bedangerous, but I'm hiring an
expert.
So I would love for them totell me hey, here's some other
considerations, here's someoptions, here's my
recommendation, here's what itmight cost if you do this,
here's the trade-off if you dothat.
(09:48):
That is like music to my ears,right, oh?
Speaker 1 (09:51):
absolutely, or what you're asking for is outdated.
How about have you consideredthis?
And it's like yes, thank you,yes.
Speaker 2 (09:58):
That's really interesting.
Speaker 1 (09:59):
Well, and so that's good.
That's actually really goodadvice too.
So if you're already inbusiness and you're looking at
going, you know, to all thesedifferent areas or regions, I
think you're right.
In my experience and I don'tthink it's just you and I having
these experiences I mean, wework with a lot of clients as
well, and you've clearly been inthis industry I think there are
very specific characteristicsto different regions that you'll
(10:20):
find, and I never reallythought to make the decision
based off of that.
And I've been outsourcing forthe last decade since we've had
our company.
I mean, yes, I did start offbuilding all of my marketing
tools and my website, everythingin India, and we've worked in
multiple different areas.
I've had companies in LatinAmerica as well, asia, I think,
(10:40):
all that kind of stuff.
So everything that you'resaying were things that I've
learned along the way, but notnecessarily equating making
decisions based off of thosethings.
So I love that we're talking alittle bit more than just oh,
you're going to save money ifyou, you know, hire, because I
think that's really maybe wherebusiness owners start.
That's the thing that'simportant to us.
But, you know, at the end ofthe day, it may cost us more if
(11:04):
we have to continue to, if thework isn't what we need it to be
Right.
And so let's talk a little bitabout the hiring process then,
because I think you know what isa successful nearshore hiring
strategy.
Look like You're not justthinking about cost.
How should companies approachrecruiting and onboarding talent
from outside the US?
Speaker 2 (11:23):
Yeah, that's a great question, Jamie.
So just to fully answer thelast question about cost, so
generally in Latin Americayou'll probably be somewhere
like 40 to 60 percent less thanwhat you might pay in the US.
You get a high cost city likeSan Francisco, more.
If you're in Oklahoma City, alittle bit less, but all in all
kind of 40 to 60% is what youmight say.
Speaker 1 (11:44):
So when you?
Speaker 2 (11:45):
think about hiring in Latin America, the mindset
you've got to have as a businessowner is going to be
fundamentally different thanmaybe what we tend to think when
we outsource or offshore ornearshore.
And I think the biggest mistakethese companies will make is
they'll say things like ouroutsourced resources or like
(12:06):
like we're going to hire somelow cost resources, like these
are people, right, they're partof your team, so don't think
about it anything other than youjust happen to be hiring a team
member in a different place andthey're a living, breathing
human, just like somebody youmight hire you know, if you live
in Cincinnati or Dallas orwhatever.
(12:27):
So you want to give them thesame respect and courtesy and
onboarding.
That's really important.
The thing that really attractedme to them and this goes with
like the hiring but also theonboarding part of it goes with
like the hiring but also theonboarding part of it.
So, as I talked at the verybeginning of the pod, there's
volatility in Latin America andthat on the headline, sounds
(12:51):
scary.
But go beneath the headline Ifyou're an entrepreneur or a
business owner who wouldn't wantsomebody who's flexible,
adaptable, used to solvingproblems, used to overcoming
adversity.
I know a lot of CEOs, and Ican't think of anybody who
wouldn't want that.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
Especially if you're a startup.
Right, Because that's all it is.
That's the type of environmentyou're in, and so just doing a
lot with a little, making thingswork with what you've got yeah,
absolutely.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
Yeah, so you're working with a population in
Latin America that is used toall kinds of chaos, right, like
stuff that might freak us out,and it's like a once in a
lifetime event.
It's a Tuesday for them, right?
So they're used to dealing withchaos, getting over it, solving
the problem, moving to the nextone.
(13:43):
So that means your onboardingcan be like a lot of startups,
onboarding where it's not superbaked out, it's not like a 14
step process and this is exactlywhat you need to do.
And I love that because I'mprobably like a lot of
entrepreneurs, like I'm used tojust kind of waking up.
I'm OK with a blank whiteboardand kind of figuring things out,
(14:06):
and they are too.
So you don't have to stress somuch about the onboarding
process.
I would.
I would try to have some sortof targets and goals, but again,
like this is the ambiguity partof it.
Like you can have someambiguity because they're okay
with that.
You're not going to like stressthem out or paralyze them.
Now, when it comes to hiring,we're in a nice position where
(14:28):
we've had a chance to work allacross Latin America and it's
very important to know that thiscontinent, this region, it's
not a one size fits all.
So, like Mexico and Chile andArgentina and Brazil and Bolivia
, these are all like wildlydifferent countries and they all
have different nuances.
(14:49):
You know, from being able toget hardware in and out of the
country to develop versusdeveloping.
The more developed a country is, the higher the price point.
So even think Asia Singapore isconnected to Malaysia, but the
cost differentials are massive.
Right One's developed Asia, butthe cost differentials are
massive.
Right One's developed, highlydeveloped, and one is still
(15:14):
developing.
So think Central America you'vegot Nicaragua and a neighbor is
Costa Rica.
Costa Rica much more developed,nicaragua developing, but
there's some really interestingroles that are on full throttle
right now in Nicaragua andthat's where the arbitrage
exists for founders that mighthave a little more risk in their
bones and we tend to, becauseyou can get a cost arbitrage
(15:37):
opportunity there and you've gethighly fluent English speaking
people that are motivated, canbe adaptable, overcome certain
things, but it's not as stable,say, as Costa Rica, right?
So as entrepreneurs, we kind ofroll with it, we figure things
out, we're a little riskier.
So this is where, if you'reopen to some of the riskier
(15:58):
countries, you can reallybenefit from that.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
And really it comes down to finding the right person
.
So in any given environment youcan have the most stable
environment and bring on thewrong person and you're in just
as much trouble.
And you can, you know.
On the flip side of that, tryone of the riskier you know, or
perceivingly riskier areas, oreven you know proven riskier
areas that you would say, andyou just you find, you find your
(16:23):
golden, you know.
And so I think what it what thatcomes back to is I guess it
doesn't really matter what youronboarding process necessarily
looks like but that, a you haveone and B you incorporate the
same type of process with yourinternal employees as you do
wherever you're getting peoplefrom, because, at the end of the
day, they are people.
(16:43):
They're there to do a job foryou.
And, yes, there are things thatmay be different, but at the
end of the day, they are people.
They're there to do a job foryou.
And, yes, there are things thatmay be different, but at the
end of the day, differentpersonalities and different
people need different thingsanyway, no matter where you get
them from.
And so, as long as you have agreat process and you do kind of
cast a vision, give themexpectations, resources to be
successful, then they're goingto have just about the same, if
(17:05):
not greater, success rate thananybody that you bring on board.
So I think that's kind of whatI'm taking from this.
I know that I've had a reallygreat experience near and
offshore and obviously in, youknow, here in the United States
as well.
We've worked with people allover the world in fact, and and
I think everything that you'resaying to me is at least true
(17:26):
for my experience, my firsthandexperience as well it's also
been my same experience forclients that we work with and
things that we're seeing, trendsin the industry, why people
work in different areas.
I think you had some reallyvery specific insight, just
because you're in the industryand just kind of said things so
simply that I'm like, oh yeah, Ireally never thought about that
, but that's actually I will nowknow from now on, making
(17:49):
decisions kind of, where I cankind of play that risk factor or
take into considerationdifferent things, and I have
different clients that needdifferent things, right, like,
hey, the top priority for me isjust excellence, like we need to
get this job done correctly,like I don't really care.
I have other clients that arelike cost, I don't really care.
I have other clients that arelike cost, I don't really care,
what we need to do, it's thecost, the level of whatever we
(18:10):
get or whatever we do, andalthough they may not be
simultaneous, at least in theirminds they are.
But I can take that decisionand run with it.
So I think that's as a businessowner and people you know,
having a company that works witha lot of decision makers like
that, that is something that I'mtaking away.
But I wanted to ask you, as thepodcast is rightfully named,
(18:32):
what it takes, what advice wouldyou give to business owners who
are hesitant about hiringbeyond the US borders but, like
want to grow their teamseffectively as well?
And to tack on to that oursignature question to which is
like what it?
What does it take?
What does it take to be able tomake those kinds of decisions?
When to consider, you know, allthat kind of stuff?
Kind of a loaded question, butI think you know you've kept up
(18:55):
with my conversational style.
I have to get them in becauseyou've been answering everything
for me, anything that I wantedto ask you.
So what last you know hurrah doyou have to give to our
listeners right now?
Speaker 2 (19:08):
Well, I appreciate the mindshare that we've had on
this pod, so I'll take these astwo different questions.
One is how an entrepreneurmight think about making their
first hire ever outside of theirborders.
The second is justentrepreneurship what I've gone
through.
So I think there's like levelsto this.
The first level is Fiverr andUpwork are great ways to make
(19:33):
mistakes Because, trust me, youwill make mistakes with hiring,
just like you'd make mistakes ifyou're in Dallas and you hire
somebody down the street.
Right Happens to the best of us.
Hiring is never perfect, so Iwould just try to mitigate your
risk.
You know, do like a one weekproject, like what is a task
that you need outsourced, pay 50bucks on Fiverr or 500 bucks on
(19:57):
Upwork for somebody to get itdone and then you just keep
getting better and better andbetter.
Try to take the lesson I sharedearlier about if it's like a
super specific task you couldlike.
The more specific you make it,probably the less you have to
pay for it, and the moreambiguous it is, the more you
might need to increase yourbudget.
But again, diy, upwork, fiverras you start to grow your own
(20:22):
business a little bit.
That's what agencies are for.
Plug Technologies could be anagency for you to consider and
you give a job spec or a jobdescription like this is what
I'm trying to solve for.
Can you guys go find it?
And an agency like that willtake care of all the compliance
and the payroll and the sourcing.
They just give you a short listof candidates with a clean bill
(20:45):
rate like this is the billingrate per hour or the billing
rate per month and they takecare of everything else and then
you get this candidate that youcan interview and hire.
Generally speaking, from anentrepreneurship standpoint,
like what does it take?
I've gotten punched in the facea lot as an entrepreneur.
I've gotten punched in the facea lot as an entrepreneur.
(21:06):
I've gone through, you know,companies that really struggled
and somehow we figured it out.
So I think the biggest advice Imight say is I've been doing
this now for about 10 years asan entrepreneur, started with
investor money.
The current companies I haveare all my own money, but I've
told myself and this is true I'mnot working for someone else's
(21:27):
retirement.
I'm are all my own money, butI've told myself and this is
true I'm not working for someoneelse's retirement, I'm working
for my own.
And that's like a veryliberating thing you can tell
yourself becauseentrepreneurship is compounding.
So, like everything, you learn,all the mistakes you make you
get to take for yourself andthen apply it to the next day
and the next day to grow thevaluation of your business.
And just be clear on prioritiesyou know if you have 10
(21:49):
priorities, you have zeropriorities.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
I love that and I think it's the same kind of
thing we were saying about.
If we want people that work forus to be successful, we set
clear expectations, we give themvision and we got to do the
same thing for us right.
But also, you got to be alittle tough, you got to be able
to take a hit and that is aevery.
You know, I've beeninterviewing people for a while
(22:11):
now and I asked that question,but that just seems to be like
resiliency and talking aboutjust you have got to be able to
keep going.
That is something that I thinkeveryone says across the board,
that you don't necessarily thinkof how hard that road is.
You think you know.
Whatever it is, people havetheir own preconceived notions
about what their experience inbusiness ownership is going to
(22:32):
be like, and I think it'sdifferent If you have investors.
It is a different journey thanyou know starting up on your own
and trying to figure out yourown funding for things.
But at the same time, what bothof them have in common is it's
not if it's when you're going toface challenges you're going to
like you can't make up some ofthe stuff that happens to you in
ownership, right and the levelof responsibility and weight
(22:54):
that you carry is worth notingand it's showing how, hey, we
didn't just wake up and get here.
You know we had to keep goingwhen things looked really bad.
We've been through pandemicsand recessions and times that
were really great, and you knowyou take the good with the bad
and you just keep keep movingforward.
(23:14):
So I just want to thank you,brian.
This has been such aninsightful conversation.
But before we wrap up, ifanybody is interested in finding
you or looking at you know yourcompany or North Shore or near
shore there's, there's thatSouthern California girl that's
coming out Dear Shore hiringthings like that.
How can people find you ifthey're looking for you?
Speaker 2 (23:32):
Yeah, thanks, jamie, if they could go to Plug
Technologies.
So the website there isplugpluggtech, or they can email
me directly.
And that's simply BrianB-R-I-A-N at plugplugg and
that's simply Brian B-R-I-A-N atplug.
P-l-u-g-g.
Speaker 1 (23:47):
Great.
Thank you so much, brian, and,to our listeners, thanks for
joining us for another episodeof what it Takes.
If you found value in today'sconversation the way I have,
please be sure to subscribe,leave a review and share this
episode with a fellowentrepreneur, and we'll be back
soon with more stories ofresilience, strategy and success
(24:08):
.
So until then, keep pushingforward and building what it
takes.
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