May 12, 2025 • 34 mins
In this Mother's Day message, Pastor Joe explores the landscape of 1990s church culture. The message provides a look at how the church evolved, discussing church sizes from house churches to giga-churches, and the rise of multi-site church models. Pastor Joe shares some personal memories of growing up in the 90s church and serving every Sunday morning as an acolyte!
Drawing from John the Baptist's biblical example, Pastor Joe breaks down the text: "Jesus must increase, and we must decrease." The sermon challenges listeners to move beyond passive church attendance to active discipleship, encouraging them to ask two pivotal questions: "What is my next step in my relationship with God?" and "Who am I discipling?"
The message was also on Mother's Day, and Pastor Joe acknowledged the complex and varied experiences of motherhood. Pastor Joe called for empathy and understanding, recognizing that this day means different things to different people.
Key Takeaways:
1. Church growth should be relational, not just numerical
2. Discipleship is about actively seeking your next spiritual step
3. Churches should support each other's kingdom goals, not compete
4. Personal faith is defined by your relationship with Jesus
5. Every Christian is called to disciple others, not just attend church
This message serves as a call to relational, kingdom-focused Christianity that prioritizes spiritual growth and community over institutional boundaries.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Pastor Joe Liles (00:00):
Be seated. So as table was saying earlier,
(00:05):
we're in a series right nowcalled church shopping, and we
lined up the 1990s worship withMother's Day because we thought
that would be an excellent wayto honor generations, right that
have come through. And just sowe know, if we're talking the
90s worship. I just want to letyou know, if you fast forward a
(00:25):
little bit to the 2000s and then2010 so 2000 would be 10 years.
2010 would be 20 years. 2020 tobe 30 years. So to the early
1990s were 35 years ago. In caseyou haven't done that math, I
kind of feel like, I kind offeel like anything pre 2000 is
just kind of like back then inthe 90s, but it's 35 years ago,
(00:47):
which makes me feel a whole lotolder. So, yeah, so much older
and so, so we thought, you know,what a wonderful way to go back
into a life of worship, and notin a way that we're taking 90s
worship and saying there wasn'tsomething valid with it. If you
felt any emotion from thosesongs, it's because we grew up
with those songs. We grew upwith the songs which gave us
(01:07):
those emotions. It connected usto God in a certain way. I grew
up with every single one ofthose songs. I can tell you,
where I sang those, when I sangthose, how I sang those, what
camps I was at, and before weget into that and kind of
breaking down this 90s church.
So this whole church shoppingseries is about going through
the years of development on howSunday morning came to be. And
if you want to know, we startedoff in 100 and we went through
(01:29):
the year 100 and talked aboutthe early church that was in
homes that was small communitiesof faith that were sprouting up
everywhere, because this Jesusmovement was starting that they
called the way, and Jesus hadascended into heaven. And so now
you have these Christians thatare that are getting the gospel,
and like 70 through 90 and andthey're starting to read the
word and not just hear the word.
(01:50):
And so these communities wereand then they're persecuted for
hundreds of years as theChristian church. And so they
have to fight to be Christian,something that I think in a
North American culture, wereally struggle with. We're not
a persecuted church, and so wecan go to church freely on a
Sunday morning, we can worship,we can talk about our faith. And
then when a moment when we feellike we can't, we're like, Whoa.
What's this about? I can'tbelieve they would say
(02:10):
something. This is a differentpersecution, right? They were
taken and putting in jail ifthey were found. So they had to
worship in catacombs and inbasements and different things
like that, the undergroundchurch, as they called it, and
then you come through that wasthe early church. And then last
week, we moved up through the1500s and did a church history
lesson on the Reformation, whichwas the big church, split
between Catholicism, right? Andthen also all the way through to
(02:33):
what is Protestant, which meansnot Catholic, right? And so all
these Protestant denominationsof which Luther was the first.
And so if you want a churchhistory lesson, I invite you to
go listen to our podcast. Youcan listen to the message on the
podcast right. You can go watchon YouTube. That's fine. But
then also we break it down as astaff, and we go through the
whole reformation history also,which is really interesting. And
then we're fast forwarding alittle bit. We're fast
(02:55):
forwarding another almost 500years, really, into this kind of
new 1990s church. And we'regonna get to that in a second.
But before I start with 1990s Iwould love to take a moment to
pray for a Mother's Day and andI tell our staff whenever we
start Mother's Day that I wantto honor. I want to honor the
day in all of its width andbreadth. And I want to take you
(03:19):
through what that means for asecond. I love Mother's Day. I
think it's a very special day. Ithink as a culture, we have
popularized it to be acelebration on Mother's Day, and
I want to honor as a church thatwe understand that there are
many different people who carefor children, there are many
different people who havedifferent relationships with
their mothers that are not justHappy Mother's Day, as you see
(03:41):
everywhere, there are people whostruggle with that. There are
moms who want to be who couldn'tbe. There are moms who are
trying to be right. There aremoms of other children who will
never be their own, but theycare for other children away
that people will never know.
There are grandmas who are momsagain and again and again, over
and over again. There are somany different types of mother
figures out there that we wantto make sure that there is a way
(04:02):
that we really pray and open ourhearts to all of that. And the
reason I say that is because Iwant you to open your heart. I
want you to understand as youwalk through today that you
might experience someone who isnot having the Happy Mother's
Day that you are accustomed to,and to give space for that. I
think that's what we asChristians do we stand in the
midst of that tension and say,How is this day for you? And if
(04:23):
they say, Ah, my mom and I havea great relationship. I love it.
She's coming down. We're doing abrunch. We're going to cook the
old things. It's going to begreat, wonderful, celebrate. And
if you come up to someone andsays, I haven't talked to my
mom, and I can't even tell youhow many years, and you say,
hey, let's pray over that too.
Why don't we pray over that,that that's gotta be really
hard, and I'm here with you forthat too. We can be in both
(04:45):
spaces as a church and as apeople, and that'll actually
factor into a little bit of ourmessage at the end too. So we're
just going to take a moment ofsilence after I pray, and then
we're going to get into ourmessage on the 90s church. So if
you'd pray with me for a momentand then share a moment of
silence, go. Oh, heavenly andgracious Father, we are here
today because you came for thesake of each and every one of
(05:06):
us. Lord, when you say you camefor all and you gave your life
for all, you mean that. And yetsometimes we only think of one
person, and we only think of oneway and maybe even one emotion.
Lord, when we walk through lifeand and when the church meets
culture. Sometimes we engage inthat culture, in the way the
culture says, do it this way,and let Lord, you came into this
(05:28):
life to show us that you standat the well, that you meet
people in homes, that you praywith those who are passing by,
who have lost people, that attimes you even said at the
moments on the cross that thisis your mother and this is your
son. So Lord, we know you metthis over and over and again,
and we ask you to open ourhearts. Open our hearts to each
(05:52):
and every type of mother that isout there to celebrate and stand
in the midst of, to be next to,to walk with, to grieve with,
and to hope with. Lord, we arehere because you've called us to
love, and so maybe that is whattoday is. Today is just a day of
love, a day of love for whereyou are at and what you have
(06:14):
gone through and what you'rehoping for in the future. So
Lord, in that moment, I give ustime again, time to lift up the
prayers for those who we know inour heart need A Prayer for
Today, on this day that we callMother's Day, and so Lord, Let
us have a moment of silence withyou. You
(07:02):
Lord we pray these things inyour holy and precious name, And
all God's people said, Amen. Soas we jump into our 90s series,
I want to let you know that Iwas not this cool in the 90s,
but if I have an opportunity towear a jean jacket, I'm going to
wear a jean jacket. Can I get anAmen? Now you all had the
opportunity to wear a jeanjacket too. I'm just saying that
(07:23):
out loud, maybe next year, onour 90s Sunday, you're going to
come wearing a jean jacket. ButI had to go out with my daughter
because I showed her thepictures from the 90s. And she
was like, what? And I was like,look that. That's that's what it
was, right? But I did not ownthis kind of stuff in the 90s.
This was not what I look like. Iwas, it was, I wasn't cool in
the 90s. I'm just going to putit out there like I didn't meet
that crowd and so, so we knowshe's like, Dad, you got to get
(07:44):
some barrel pants. Like, youcan't get baggy pants. You got
to get I wore jingos At onephase. That was a bad phase.
We're not going to go back toit. Dang. I wore some jinkos,
right? But I wasn't cool. Ididn't wear them with, like, the
cool skater shoes. Didn't havevans converse, nothing like
that. I wore them with, like,Reeboks, right? Which Reebok
wasn't cool when it was Reebokin the 90s, right? And so well
that. But then my friend here,Matt Poe, he had some cool 90s
(08:07):
kicks. Look at those guys, man,when you're preaching in the
90s, it feels fantastic. Howmany of you grew up in the
church in the 90s? Right? Okay,alright, we grew up in the
church. How many did not attendchurch in the 90s? Right? We got
some people not attend church.
Okay, great. We got some great.
We got Landon, yeah. Landon, youweren't born yet. Boy, okay,
sorry, I got a call. That's myson messing with me on stage. I
(08:30):
apologize. Man, got me again.
That's great. So I want to walkyou through what 90s church was
like. Now, I grew up in 90schurch. I mean, so if you want
to imagine I was born in 82there's my age. I'm 42 years
old. Proud of it. Here we go.
And so I was born 82 I'm workingthrough so in the late 90s, I
was hitting high school, right?
So that 97 range I was hittingfreshman year in high school,
(08:53):
right? We're rocking ready togo. So I grew up in this, like,
middle school phase of the 90s.
I grew up in 9797 we didn't haveinternet still at the high
school, so we had to go to thelibrary to do our book studies,
right and everything else. Like,midway through high school, we
got Oregon Trail. We're calledthe Organ Trail generation.
Let's go, Yeah, that's right,that's what I'm talking about,
huh? Floppy disk, baby. FloppyDisk is so good. So we had to go
(09:16):
play all these things right, onthe church, on the computer, in
the library, in the school,because we only had like, two
computers, and so that's wherewe grew up. Now, the church I
grew up in the 90s was atraditional church. How many of
you grew up in a traditional 90schurch, right? Traditional
church. And I mean, all stolesrolls, you had hymnals in the
Okay, that's great. How many ofyou grew up in non traditional
(09:38):
church, right, in the 90s? Okay,that's great. We got some B,
okay, that's an even mix. Okay,that's really good. So I didn't
know in the 90s that there wereother styles of churches. I only
knew one style of church, and itwas traditional church with the
LBW, the Lutheran book ofworship, right? And that was
wonderful. And we can did rightPraise God from humbling. No,
(10:01):
Ryan, you're going to hear thatnext week, by the way, so it's
going to be awesome. So now withthat, I only grew up in that
church. I was not familiar inthe Lutheran church, that
churches planted churches. I wasnot familiar with the thing
called mega church. I wasn'tfamiliar with the thing called a
multi site church. See the theadvent of the 90s church, if you
kind of break it down, was thismovement that went from kind of
(10:24):
these siloed, independentchurches, part of a
denomination, to what I wouldsay, started to establish the
local church. And what thatmeans is you had churches now,
kind of planting their ownchurches and going multi site.
They said, Hey, we can replicatewhat we do, we don't just need
the denomination, which would belike a Methodist or a
Presbyterian or a Lutheran or aBaptist, right? We don't need
(10:47):
them to tell us to do it orplant something here. We can do
it ourselves. And so you foundthese churches that were larger,
start to plant other churches,and we called that multi site,
and so they would have andthere's different multi site
models, which we'll talk aboutin a second. But I but I want to
share with you different sizesof churches, though, because
when I say a large church, Iwant you to understand large
(11:07):
church. And we just added, forthe first time ever, recently,
and I would say within the last10 years, we added another large
church category, which we'regoing to talk through today. If
you haven't heard that before.
So if I'm going to say thatthere's a house church, size of
church. What size church do youthink that is? If there's a
house church size less than 20,someone said 15, less than 100
(11:28):
right? House church is less than50, less than 50 people. Okay,
that's house church, less than50 people. Okay? And in the
Lutheran church, that's about80% of our congregations.
There's 8500 congregations.
About 80% of them are less than50 people, all right. Now that's
(11:49):
also true of all Protestantdenominations, the majority,
right? And I'm going to saywe're at 80 it's going to get a
little bit less, right? It hitsabout 37% 37% of Protestant
denominations, right? Sit inthis house church category. Then
you have small church, smallchurch. Where do you think that
hits under 50? Okay, rightaround there. So it, yeah, it
(12:11):
sits under 100 is a smallchurch, and that's average
worship attendance under 100 andthen you have the next category,
which is a mid sized church,right? And what does that sit
under, okay, 500 that'd be agreat jump. Can't go that far.
252 50. And below right is a midsized church, right? And you
(12:32):
have that there, that's a midsized church. Now, what is a
large church? Large church, over250 Yeah. How that breaks down.
Like 250 is a big number, andthis is something that's very
true. It is hard, because whathappens at 250 is you move from
(12:53):
a pastoral church that has a fewprograms to a programmatic staff
led church. That's thedifference, right? And that jump
is incredibly difficult, and bythe time you get there, you
either have a pastor who's goingto help you jump to there, or a
pastor who has not been taughthow to get there. And so the
church stifles at that point,right? And needs to continue to
go forward. Now we do have nowwhat we call mega church, right?
(13:17):
A mega church, and that categorywas added in the 90s, right? So
this is why it's important. Howbig do you have to be to be a
mega church? A mega church is,oh, see how everything was under
this, and now we're going toover that. That's the switch.
What is a mega church over 5000I really over 500 Okay, over
1000 over 2000 I'm gonna staythere. So a mega church is over
(13:41):
2000 it sits in between over1800 over 2000 it's fine. You
get that big, you're a megachurch, right? You're a mega
church. That happens, that'saverage worship attendance. Now,
there's something new that wejust added, which is
interesting, because I justheard this for the first time.
Also, we now have a giga church.
Giga church. You guys know whatGiga means. It means a billion,
(14:04):
which is not true. So I'mwondering why they call it a
giga church. Okay, so, but whatdo you think a giga church is?
Over 10,000 people? Yeah, 10,000people in a giga church. Now, if
you've seen life, if you've seenlife, dot church, they are multi
(14:27):
site campuses. They have over 50campuses, and they, on a Sunday,
reach over 47,000 people, gigachurch, right? That's the
difference. So I just wanted totake you through this, because
what ends up happening is, weget into our text today, we're
really going to talk throughwhat was this movement. And if
you see that we're movingthrough things, we're moving
from this community style churchthat men, people's homes and did
(14:49):
different things, and then youhave this church in the 1500s
which was a state run church,and you had to go to church, and
required to go to church, andyou have this in the 1500s but
then it's given back. The peoplein the Reformation, and they
start saying, What does churchlook like if we understand
church? And now you move to the1990s with a little thing that
came out in like 97 called theInternet, and it changes how we
reach people. All of a sudden,your local church is not the
(15:15):
only church to reach people. Youcan now reach people where,
everywhere, who has the fundingto reach people everywhere? Giga
churches, that's who has thefunding. But think about this,
the mega churches had theability to reach more people,
which grew them, which meansthey had to Plant more churches.
So in the early 90s, you hadeight multi site churches,
(15:37):
eight. It's definable eight. Atthe end of the 90s, you had 100
in 2012 you had 5000 today,there's over 8000 to 10,000
multi site churches. They expectthat'll increase 2000 more in
the next five years. But what'shappening in a very interesting
(15:59):
way, and this is a church trendthat I'm going to give you, is
that the multi site and largerchurches are growing, and the
smaller, mid size, even largechurches at 250 are declining.
Andyou're going to have this middle
section of churches that eithermakes it or doesn't make it in
(16:19):
the next 10 years, that's what'sgoing to happen, and they're
watching it everywhere rightnow. So with that, if we're
talking about the 90s church anddiscipleship, we have to
understand what our role is andwho we are within the church.
Who are you as members of theneighborhood church? Who are you
(16:39):
as the tenders of theneighborhood church? What is it
that Christ is calling you to inthe life of the church? In order
to begin that, I want to, I wantto share relationship to John
the Baptist, and I want to talkthrough a story where, where he
was questioned a little bit onwho Jesus is and why Jesus was
doing the things that Jesus wasdoing, which we get a lot in the
church too. So I want you toopen your scriptures. We love
Bibles in the church. So I wantyou to open your Bibles. We're
(17:01):
gonna be in John chapter three.
If you got a Bible, raise it up.
Who's got a Bible in the church?
Whoo, nice. Got some Bibles inthe church? Yes, I love it. Oh,
great. Mother's Day gift aBible. Fantastic. You can never
go wrong, right? They willalways appreciate that, and you
can give that to them. So we gotBibles in our Bible boxes around
the church. If you wanna get upand grab one, you can grab a
Bible. We got study Bibles inthere, and we have kids Bibles
(17:23):
in there. You can take that homeif you don't have one. If you're
online, there's a link in thedescription. And if you're on
the Bible app on the smartphone,download the Bible app. There's
a chair back card that has ourchurch apps. You can download
the Bible app and follow alongwith notes. There. We have a
really neat devotional on therefor the next couple days, which
is called cultivate the soil,which is really about how you
cultivating your soil, howyou're deepening and rooting
(17:44):
yourself. But we're gonna startin John chapter three, Matthew
Mark, Luke and John are thegospels that tell the story of
Jesus Christ, from birth in somegospels, to resurrection and
ascension and other gospels. Andthe Gospel of John is great. It
talks about the Divine LordJesus Christ, right? And so it
begins in a really incredibleway. And we're going to talk
about Jesus and John theBaptist. And I want to take you
(18:06):
through what is happening rightbefore this is that there was a
Pharisee Nicodemus who visitedJesus in the night. He wasn't
allowed to visit Jesus. Hewasn't allowed to see him during
the day, so he came under thecloak of night, visited Jesus
and asked him a question, howcan anyone be born after having
grown old? Because Jesus wassaying, you have to be born
again. And then they have thiswhole conversation about what it
(18:28):
means to be born of the kingdom.
And then you get this languagewith John the Baptist. John the
Baptist, who was the one doingthe baptisms before Jesus's
ministry. He was the one whopaved the way for Jesus, who
made a way in the wilderness.
And he said, I am baptizing younow with water. But Jesus, who
the one who's coming after me,who I'm not worthy to untie the
(18:49):
throng of his sandal, willbaptize you with the Holy
Spirit, and He is coming. Andthen even John, the Baptist, was
the one that baptized Jesus,even though he didn't want to
and said he wouldn't. Jesussaid, you're going to and he
said, Okay, I got it. So hebaptized Jesus. Here is what
happens in this text, John,chapter three, verses 22,
through 30. After this, Jesusand his disciples went into the
(19:12):
Judean countryside, and he spentsome time there with them.
Baptized. He spent some timewith them and baptized. John
also was baptizing at aenon nearSalim because water was abundant
there, and people kept comingand were being baptized. John,
of course, had yet not beenthrown into prison. Now, a
(19:33):
discussion about purificationarose between John's disciples
and a Jew. They came to John andsaid to him, Rabbi, teacher, the
one who was with you across theJordan, to whom you testified.
Here he is baptizing, and allare going to him. John answered,
No one can receive anythingexcept what has been given from
(19:54):
heaven. You yourselves are mywitnesses that I said. I am not
the Messiah, but. I have beensent ahead of him. He who has
the bride is the bridegroom, thefriend of the bridegroom who
stands and hears him rejoicesgreatly at the bridegroom's
voice. For this reason, my joyhas been fulfilled. He must
(20:15):
increase, I must decrease. Andthat's where we're going to
begin. So it's interesting. Iwant you to think about this
statement that happens at theend of this text. They're
saying, Hey, John, Jesus, rightover there, same river baptizing
(20:38):
people, and there's more peoplegoing to Jesus, and John's like,
Oh no, no, I'm gonna get themall back over here. Did you hear
that in the text? You didn'thear that in the text. What you
heard was John say, Hold on, thesame Jesus that was with me. The
same Jesus that I baptized. Thisis the Jesus that is baptizing
across the river, the one that Isaid that baptizes with the Holy
(20:59):
Spirit. This Jesus over here isbaptizing wonderful. I rejoice
at the sound of his voice. Myjoy is fulfilled in hearing him
and knowing that he is near us.
Jesus must increase and I mustdecrease. And this is where we
got into the issue with thechurch. See what ends up
happening with the church isthat we feel that when we have a
(21:22):
church, that you are all sheepof the neighborhood. You are all
inside of our wonderful grazingarea. It's a beautiful field. We
have great grass. It's reallywonderful, like it's the best in
Northwest Arkansas, and you cangraze for as long as you'd like.
We let in fact, we don't reallyask that much when you come into
(21:43):
our grazing area. We kind ofjust let you in. It's beautiful,
and you can graze in this area.
And we wonder, but if you leave,we got some questions, what?
Why? Where are you going? Why?
Why are you leaving? Did we notprovide you the space that you
needed? Did we were we not nextto you? Did we not have a
shepherd for you? What was goingon when you wandered through our
fields and different things likethat. What happened in the 90s
is that the church saw that thechurch was growing in these
(22:05):
multi site movements, and whatends up happening is you start
to silo in the churches.
Everyone says, I don't wantanother church next to me. I
don't want people that couldcome in and they could take our
people when we're forgetting, asJohn the Baptist says that hold
on a second. Who must increaseJesus and we must decrease. What
(22:28):
we start to have happen is viewthat the only way that we see
church and the only way that weattend church is the way that
church should be and the onlyplace that people should go. The
90s actually began somethingreally neat in the background,
which I believe, was a localchurch movement. When I first
started here, one of our goalswas to combine the area churches
(22:49):
in ministry and do and we workedon that for years, 567, years.
And the one thing I kept onhearing was, if we partner with
you, then all our people will goto your church? And I was like,
No, it's not the goal. Like ifwe partner, we can raise up the
kingdom, we can raise up thebody. We can see more people
come to Christ. And like, no,but our people would leave the
(23:11):
church. And that happens overand over and again throughout
the whole body of the church.
And then I started to realizeand ask a key question, do any
of our churches hold all of thepeople in Northwest Arkansas?
Not one church holds all wedon't have a giga church in
Northwest Arkansas. Not onechurch holds all the people. So
(23:33):
do we have room to be the localchurch in Northwest Arkansas,
walking people to Christ,wherever they would find that
relationship to Christ, we haveroom for that. And the wonderful
language that we should sharewith people is, hey, we are
raising Christ up. We have awonderful church. You should
come check it out. Hey, itwasn't really my vibe. That's
okay. What are you looking for?
(23:55):
What are you looking for?
Because I can guide you to achurch. I know lots of people
that go to different churches,would love to walk you into
another church. In fact, I havetold people, if this isn't the
church for you, I will walk youand introduce you to the pastors
that I know and a church that Ithink you'll fit. Because I want
you to find and develop yourfaith as a Christian. I want you
to be discipled, and if it's nothere, that's okay to me, because
there's room for growtheverywhere we can begin that.
(24:15):
And that's what John the Baptistis saying. Jesus must increase
and we must decrease. That's adiscipleship, and it's not just
for the church. Every one of uscan have that every single one
of us. Now I want you to turn toverse 26 and listen to this.
(24:36):
Verse. 26 says this. They cameto John and said to Him, Rabbi
the one who was with you acrossthe Jordan to whom you
testified, here he is baptizing,and all are going to him. Now I
want you to go back and listento the first part. Rabbi, the
one who was. With you, and Iwant you to stop there. May we
(25:02):
only be defined at a point inour life by saying, Rabbi, the
one who is with you. Nothingmore needs to be said. They
defined John the Baptist as theone with Jesus. And then what
(25:24):
did John do when they said, butit doesn't look like us, and
they're stealing our people, andhe's baptizing over there with
the Spirit, and we're baptizingwith water, and all the people
are going to him. This is where,when you are defined by Jesus,
and Jesus must increase and wemust decrease. John the Baptist
says, I delight in the name ofthe voice of the Lord, and in
(25:46):
that voice, my joy is fulfilled.
Jesus must increase and I mustdecrease. Is that the same
language that you have when youtalk with people and do they
define you by the one thatyou're with?
(26:08):
Hey, that's my friend. That's myfriend over there. Jess, she's
awesome. Yeah, super Christian.
Like, totally with Jesus.
Awesome. You love her. She'llpray for you. She'll do these
things. It's awesome. Is thathow people define. You see, what
I believe about church growth isthat church growth needs to be
rooted and relational. That'swhat church growth needs to be.
(26:28):
And what we saw in this multisite and mega movement is that
as you grow and as you increasethat as some of the relationship
starts to falter, because it'snot as rooted you can kind of
walk in and walk out. It's notas rooted in there. And the
difference is, is that when wetry to understand a personal
discipleship, you have to be inrelationship with people. That's
(26:49):
the reality. If you're cominghere just to consume the gospel
and not live it out, we'remissing a key step. And we have
to understand that if we'regoing to be a church that moves
the kingdom forward, and notjust the church forward. That's
who we need to be. And if youdidn't know, there are different
church models and church megasites, or mega site, multi site
(27:12):
and mega church, there aredifferent church models. And
it's interesting, because onceyou get larger, they sound very
business like, like, Did youknow The first model of a multi
site church. It's called afranchise. Does that make sense?
Right? It's franchise. And whatit is, it's, it's, you can
replicate it, right? You have astructure at the top. You
replicate what's on the bottom,and all you do is you take the
(27:33):
pastor and you stream them toanother church. Has anyone ever
been there to another churchwhere they stream the pastor?
Right? That's great. I've showedup to a couple churches where I
expected a pastor, and theystreamed in and out, and I was
like, well, where's that pastorat? And I was like, Can I go to
that church? Like, I don't. Imissed out what's happening. And
it's okay, because there werehundreds of people in this
auditorium experiencing this.
That's great. So you have thefranchise model, and then you
have Ooh, this is great. If youwant to learn about the multi
(27:55):
site Church, the modifiedfranchise, everyone go, ooh.
That gives the campus pastor theability to preach. Every now and
then. Have you seen that? Whenyou've walked in and it's like,
oh, there's a pastor preachingthis Sunday, you're like, why is
that? Because they allowed himone Sunday a year, and he got
the one Sunday, and he's cominghot, he's ready to preach the
Word. He's ready to go. That's amodified franchise model. Is
(28:19):
what happens from there. Andthen you get the campus model.
The campus model says, Hey, youhave kind of a little bit more
autonomy. You can work into thischurch and say that the pastor
will be the main one preaching,right? They kind of have
structure over the worshipteams. They have structure over
the ministries, right? They'reloosely connected right to the
top church that's out there thatplanted them and kind of set
them out. But really they'restarting to develop their own
(28:41):
thing. And the last model iscalled a church plant. That
church plant says, I amseparating myself from the multi
site church, and I'm going to domy own thing, but I was planted
from that church, and that's themulti site model of church
planting. Now all that is onlyabout church growth. That's it.
(29:01):
Every single one of these isonly about church growth, but
every one of you have a questionin this text and in your life as
church attenders, and this isthe question you should be
asking every single Sunday inthe life of you attending
(29:24):
church, what is your next step?
Now here's how that question isdifferent. If you come into
church without asking thatquestion, you're just attending
a church. If you come inactively seeking, what is your
next step in your relationshipwith God through this church now
(29:46):
you're in a discipleshipmovement, that's the key
difference. It's okay to behere. There are some people that
need a season of just coming tochurch and being present and
falling in love with church.
Again, embracing the church,again, being present,
understanding the church. But ifyou don't come into church
asking, What is my next step,then you're just attending a
(30:08):
church. That should be your keyquestion. No matter where you go
and where you attend, what is mynext step in my relationship
with God through this churchthat's a discipleship movement.
It's not the only question.
Here's the harder one, who areyou? Discipling, that doesn't
(30:33):
have to happen inside a church.
What's your next step? Is thechurch question? Who are you?
Discipling is your Christianquestion. Who are you?
Discipling says, What is Goddoing in your life, and who are
you bringing to the Lord?
Because God calls you to that,just like God called John the
Baptist. So if we are thinkingabout your life in the church
(30:56):
and the growth of the church,those key questions will help
guide you to who you are calledto become as a member of a
church. And all God's peoplesaid, Amen, let us pray heavenly
and gracious Father. We thankyou for bringing us here today
to talk through the life of thechurch and just understand a
(31:17):
little bit more about thehistory of the church and what
formed and Lord, this issomething so different from
these moments of the earlychurch and these moments of
gathering in homes and andbreaking bread with one another
and sharing the resources. Andyet we still do those same
things. But yet, Lord, as we gotinto these more recent moments,
we understand that we have amedia and a response, and it has
given us the way to grow thekingdom beyond our local church.
(31:40):
It's given us a way to grow intoother areas, into other homes,
and Lord, we've even experiencedthat here at the neighborhood
when people say, Hey, I'vewatched you online and I've
listened to the podcast and I'veand I've seen these, and they've
never stepped foot inside thischurch. Lord, we believe that
your kingdom can grow in anyway, and the church should
always be increasing JesusChrist and decreasing ourselves,
(32:02):
the same should be true in ourpersonal life. So Lord, be with
us this day. Let us ask thesehard questions in our
relationship of truly, what isour next step in this church,
and then also, who are youcalling us to disciple? Who are
you calling us to share ourtestimony with? And Lord, if I
say this out loud, I think manyof us already know, and it's
(32:24):
time to step into thatrelationship, to disciple them
for the sake of the kingdom, notjust for ourselves. And we pray
these things in your holy andprecious name, And all God's
people said, Amen. You guysenjoying our series on church
shopping. You.
Be seated. So as table was saying earlier,
(00:05):
we're in a series right nowcalled church shopping, and we
lined up the 1990s worship withMother's Day because we thought
that would be an excellent wayto honor generations, right that
have come through. And just sowe know, if we're talking the
90s worship. I just want to letyou know, if you fast forward a
(00:25):
little bit to the 2000s and then2010 so 2000 would be 10 years.
2010 would be 20 years. 2020 tobe 30 years. So to the early
1990s were 35 years ago. In caseyou haven't done that math, I
kind of feel like, I kind offeel like anything pre 2000 is
just kind of like back then inthe 90s, but it's 35 years ago,
(00:47):
which makes me feel a whole lotolder. So, yeah, so much older
and so, so we thought, you know,what a wonderful way to go back
into a life of worship, and notin a way that we're taking 90s
worship and saying there wasn'tsomething valid with it. If you
felt any emotion from thosesongs, it's because we grew up
with those songs. We grew upwith the songs which gave us
(01:07):
those emotions. It connected usto God in a certain way. I grew
up with every single one ofthose songs. I can tell you,
where I sang those, when I sangthose, how I sang those, what
camps I was at, and before weget into that and kind of
breaking down this 90s church.
So this whole church shoppingseries is about going through
the years of development on howSunday morning came to be. And
if you want to know, we startedoff in 100 and we went through
(01:29):
the year 100 and talked aboutthe early church that was in
homes that was small communitiesof faith that were sprouting up
everywhere, because this Jesusmovement was starting that they
called the way, and Jesus hadascended into heaven. And so now
you have these Christians thatare that are getting the gospel,
and like 70 through 90 and andthey're starting to read the
word and not just hear the word.
(01:50):
And so these communities wereand then they're persecuted for
hundreds of years as theChristian church. And so they
have to fight to be Christian,something that I think in a
North American culture, wereally struggle with. We're not
a persecuted church, and so wecan go to church freely on a
Sunday morning, we can worship,we can talk about our faith. And
then when a moment when we feellike we can't, we're like, Whoa.
What's this about? I can'tbelieve they would say
(02:10):
something. This is a differentpersecution, right? They were
taken and putting in jail ifthey were found. So they had to
worship in catacombs and inbasements and different things
like that, the undergroundchurch, as they called it, and
then you come through that wasthe early church. And then last
week, we moved up through the1500s and did a church history
lesson on the Reformation, whichwas the big church, split
between Catholicism, right? Andthen also all the way through to
(02:33):
what is Protestant, which meansnot Catholic, right? And so all
these Protestant denominationsof which Luther was the first.
And so if you want a churchhistory lesson, I invite you to
go listen to our podcast. Youcan listen to the message on the
podcast right. You can go watchon YouTube. That's fine. But
then also we break it down as astaff, and we go through the
whole reformation history also,which is really interesting. And
then we're fast forwarding alittle bit. We're fast
(02:55):
forwarding another almost 500years, really, into this kind of
new 1990s church. And we'regonna get to that in a second.
But before I start with 1990s Iwould love to take a moment to
pray for a Mother's Day and andI tell our staff whenever we
start Mother's Day that I wantto honor. I want to honor the
day in all of its width andbreadth. And I want to take you
(03:19):
through what that means for asecond. I love Mother's Day. I
think it's a very special day. Ithink as a culture, we have
popularized it to be acelebration on Mother's Day, and
I want to honor as a church thatwe understand that there are
many different people who carefor children, there are many
different people who havedifferent relationships with
their mothers that are not justHappy Mother's Day, as you see
(03:41):
everywhere, there are people whostruggle with that. There are
moms who want to be who couldn'tbe. There are moms who are
trying to be right. There aremoms of other children who will
never be their own, but theycare for other children away
that people will never know.
There are grandmas who are momsagain and again and again, over
and over again. There are somany different types of mother
figures out there that we wantto make sure that there is a way
(04:02):
that we really pray and open ourhearts to all of that. And the
reason I say that is because Iwant you to open your heart. I
want you to understand as youwalk through today that you
might experience someone who isnot having the Happy Mother's
Day that you are accustomed to,and to give space for that. I
think that's what we asChristians do we stand in the
midst of that tension and say,How is this day for you? And if
(04:23):
they say, Ah, my mom and I havea great relationship. I love it.
She's coming down. We're doing abrunch. We're going to cook the
old things. It's going to begreat, wonderful, celebrate. And
if you come up to someone andsays, I haven't talked to my
mom, and I can't even tell youhow many years, and you say,
hey, let's pray over that too.
Why don't we pray over that,that that's gotta be really
hard, and I'm here with you forthat too. We can be in both
(04:45):
spaces as a church and as apeople, and that'll actually
factor into a little bit of ourmessage at the end too. So we're
just going to take a moment ofsilence after I pray, and then
we're going to get into ourmessage on the 90s church. So if
you'd pray with me for a momentand then share a moment of
silence, go. Oh, heavenly andgracious Father, we are here
today because you came for thesake of each and every one of
(05:06):
us. Lord, when you say you camefor all and you gave your life
for all, you mean that. And yetsometimes we only think of one
person, and we only think of oneway and maybe even one emotion.
Lord, when we walk through lifeand and when the church meets
culture. Sometimes we engage inthat culture, in the way the
culture says, do it this way,and let Lord, you came into this
(05:28):
life to show us that you standat the well, that you meet
people in homes, that you praywith those who are passing by,
who have lost people, that attimes you even said at the
moments on the cross that thisis your mother and this is your
son. So Lord, we know you metthis over and over and again,
and we ask you to open ourhearts. Open our hearts to each
(05:52):
and every type of mother that isout there to celebrate and stand
in the midst of, to be next to,to walk with, to grieve with,
and to hope with. Lord, we arehere because you've called us to
love, and so maybe that is whattoday is. Today is just a day of
love, a day of love for whereyou are at and what you have
(06:14):
gone through and what you'rehoping for in the future. So
Lord, in that moment, I give ustime again, time to lift up the
prayers for those who we know inour heart need A Prayer for
Today, on this day that we callMother's Day, and so Lord, Let
us have a moment of silence withyou. You
(07:02):
Lord we pray these things inyour holy and precious name, And
all God's people said, Amen. Soas we jump into our 90s series,
I want to let you know that Iwas not this cool in the 90s,
but if I have an opportunity towear a jean jacket, I'm going to
wear a jean jacket. Can I get anAmen? Now you all had the
opportunity to wear a jeanjacket too. I'm just saying that
(07:23):
out loud, maybe next year, onour 90s Sunday, you're going to
come wearing a jean jacket. ButI had to go out with my daughter
because I showed her thepictures from the 90s. And she
was like, what? And I was like,look that. That's that's what it
was, right? But I did not ownthis kind of stuff in the 90s.
This was not what I look like. Iwas, it was, I wasn't cool in
the 90s. I'm just going to putit out there like I didn't meet
that crowd and so, so we knowshe's like, Dad, you got to get
(07:44):
some barrel pants. Like, youcan't get baggy pants. You got
to get I wore jingos At onephase. That was a bad phase.
We're not going to go back toit. Dang. I wore some jinkos,
right? But I wasn't cool. Ididn't wear them with, like, the
cool skater shoes. Didn't havevans converse, nothing like
that. I wore them with, like,Reeboks, right? Which Reebok
wasn't cool when it was Reebokin the 90s, right? And so well
that. But then my friend here,Matt Poe, he had some cool 90s
(08:07):
kicks. Look at those guys, man,when you're preaching in the
90s, it feels fantastic. Howmany of you grew up in the
church in the 90s? Right? Okay,alright, we grew up in the
church. How many did not attendchurch in the 90s? Right? We got
some people not attend church.
Okay, great. We got some great.
We got Landon, yeah. Landon, youweren't born yet. Boy, okay,
sorry, I got a call. That's myson messing with me on stage. I
(08:30):
apologize. Man, got me again.
That's great. So I want to walkyou through what 90s church was
like. Now, I grew up in 90schurch. I mean, so if you want
to imagine I was born in 82there's my age. I'm 42 years
old. Proud of it. Here we go.
And so I was born 82 I'm workingthrough so in the late 90s, I
was hitting high school, right?
So that 97 range I was hittingfreshman year in high school,
(08:53):
right? We're rocking ready togo. So I grew up in this, like,
middle school phase of the 90s.
I grew up in 9797 we didn't haveinternet still at the high
school, so we had to go to thelibrary to do our book studies,
right and everything else. Like,midway through high school, we
got Oregon Trail. We're calledthe Organ Trail generation.
Let's go, Yeah, that's right,that's what I'm talking about,
huh? Floppy disk, baby. FloppyDisk is so good. So we had to go
(09:16):
play all these things right, onthe church, on the computer, in
the library, in the school,because we only had like, two
computers, and so that's wherewe grew up. Now, the church I
grew up in the 90s was atraditional church. How many of
you grew up in a traditional 90schurch, right? Traditional
church. And I mean, all stolesrolls, you had hymnals in the
Okay, that's great. How many ofyou grew up in non traditional
(09:38):
church, right, in the 90s? Okay,that's great. We got some B,
okay, that's an even mix. Okay,that's really good. So I didn't
know in the 90s that there wereother styles of churches. I only
knew one style of church, and itwas traditional church with the
LBW, the Lutheran book ofworship, right? And that was
wonderful. And we can did rightPraise God from humbling. No,
(10:01):
Ryan, you're going to hear thatnext week, by the way, so it's
going to be awesome. So now withthat, I only grew up in that
church. I was not familiar inthe Lutheran church, that
churches planted churches. I wasnot familiar with the thing
called mega church. I wasn'tfamiliar with the thing called a
multi site church. See the theadvent of the 90s church, if you
kind of break it down, was thismovement that went from kind of
(10:24):
these siloed, independentchurches, part of a
denomination, to what I wouldsay, started to establish the
local church. And what thatmeans is you had churches now,
kind of planting their ownchurches and going multi site.
They said, Hey, we can replicatewhat we do, we don't just need
the denomination, which would belike a Methodist or a
Presbyterian or a Lutheran or aBaptist, right? We don't need
(10:47):
them to tell us to do it orplant something here. We can do
it ourselves. And so you foundthese churches that were larger,
start to plant other churches,and we called that multi site,
and so they would have andthere's different multi site
models, which we'll talk aboutin a second. But I but I want to
share with you different sizesof churches, though, because
when I say a large church, Iwant you to understand large
(11:07):
church. And we just added, forthe first time ever, recently,
and I would say within the last10 years, we added another large
church category, which we'regoing to talk through today. If
you haven't heard that before.
So if I'm going to say thatthere's a house church, size of
church. What size church do youthink that is? If there's a
house church size less than 20,someone said 15, less than 100
(11:28):
right? House church is less than50, less than 50 people. Okay,
that's house church, less than50 people. Okay? And in the
Lutheran church, that's about80% of our congregations.
There's 8500 congregations.
About 80% of them are less than50 people, all right. Now that's
(11:49):
also true of all Protestantdenominations, the majority,
right? And I'm going to saywe're at 80 it's going to get a
little bit less, right? It hitsabout 37% 37% of Protestant
denominations, right? Sit inthis house church category. Then
you have small church, smallchurch. Where do you think that
hits under 50? Okay, rightaround there. So it, yeah, it
(12:11):
sits under 100 is a smallchurch, and that's average
worship attendance under 100 andthen you have the next category,
which is a mid sized church,right? And what does that sit
under, okay, 500 that'd be agreat jump. Can't go that far.
252 50. And below right is a midsized church, right? And you
(12:32):
have that there, that's a midsized church. Now, what is a
large church? Large church, over250 Yeah. How that breaks down.
Like 250 is a big number, andthis is something that's very
true. It is hard, because whathappens at 250 is you move from
(12:53):
a pastoral church that has a fewprograms to a programmatic staff
led church. That's thedifference, right? And that jump
is incredibly difficult, and bythe time you get there, you
either have a pastor who's goingto help you jump to there, or a
pastor who has not been taughthow to get there. And so the
church stifles at that point,right? And needs to continue to
go forward. Now we do have nowwhat we call mega church, right?
(13:17):
A mega church, and that categorywas added in the 90s, right? So
this is why it's important. Howbig do you have to be to be a
mega church? A mega church is,oh, see how everything was under
this, and now we're going toover that. That's the switch.
What is a mega church over 5000I really over 500 Okay, over
1000 over 2000 I'm gonna staythere. So a mega church is over
(13:41):
2000 it sits in between over1800 over 2000 it's fine. You
get that big, you're a megachurch, right? You're a mega
church. That happens, that'saverage worship attendance. Now,
there's something new that wejust added, which is
interesting, because I justheard this for the first time.
Also, we now have a giga church.
Giga church. You guys know whatGiga means. It means a billion,
(14:04):
which is not true. So I'mwondering why they call it a
giga church. Okay, so, but whatdo you think a giga church is?
Over 10,000 people? Yeah, 10,000people in a giga church. Now, if
you've seen life, if you've seenlife, dot church, they are multi
(14:27):
site campuses. They have over 50campuses, and they, on a Sunday,
reach over 47,000 people, gigachurch, right? That's the
difference. So I just wanted totake you through this, because
what ends up happening is, weget into our text today, we're
really going to talk throughwhat was this movement. And if
you see that we're movingthrough things, we're moving
from this community style churchthat men, people's homes and did
(14:49):
different things, and then youhave this church in the 1500s
which was a state run church,and you had to go to church, and
required to go to church, andyou have this in the 1500s but
then it's given back. The peoplein the Reformation, and they
start saying, What does churchlook like if we understand
church? And now you move to the1990s with a little thing that
came out in like 97 called theInternet, and it changes how we
reach people. All of a sudden,your local church is not the
(15:15):
only church to reach people. Youcan now reach people where,
everywhere, who has the fundingto reach people everywhere? Giga
churches, that's who has thefunding. But think about this,
the mega churches had theability to reach more people,
which grew them, which meansthey had to Plant more churches.
So in the early 90s, you hadeight multi site churches,
(15:37):
eight. It's definable eight. Atthe end of the 90s, you had 100
in 2012 you had 5000 today,there's over 8000 to 10,000
multi site churches. They expectthat'll increase 2000 more in
the next five years. But what'shappening in a very interesting
(15:59):
way, and this is a church trendthat I'm going to give you, is
that the multi site and largerchurches are growing, and the
smaller, mid size, even largechurches at 250 are declining.
Andyou're going to have this middle
section of churches that eithermakes it or doesn't make it in
(16:19):
the next 10 years, that's what'sgoing to happen, and they're
watching it everywhere rightnow. So with that, if we're
talking about the 90s church anddiscipleship, we have to
understand what our role is andwho we are within the church.
Who are you as members of theneighborhood church? Who are you
(16:39):
as the tenders of theneighborhood church? What is it
that Christ is calling you to inthe life of the church? In order
to begin that, I want to, I wantto share relationship to John
the Baptist, and I want to talkthrough a story where, where he
was questioned a little bit onwho Jesus is and why Jesus was
doing the things that Jesus wasdoing, which we get a lot in the
church too. So I want you toopen your scriptures. We love
Bibles in the church. So I wantyou to open your Bibles. We're
(17:01):
gonna be in John chapter three.
If you got a Bible, raise it up.
Who's got a Bible in the church?
Whoo, nice. Got some Bibles inthe church? Yes, I love it. Oh,
great. Mother's Day gift aBible. Fantastic. You can never
go wrong, right? They willalways appreciate that, and you
can give that to them. So we gotBibles in our Bible boxes around
the church. If you wanna get upand grab one, you can grab a
Bible. We got study Bibles inthere, and we have kids Bibles
(17:23):
in there. You can take that homeif you don't have one. If you're
online, there's a link in thedescription. And if you're on
the Bible app on the smartphone,download the Bible app. There's
a chair back card that has ourchurch apps. You can download
the Bible app and follow alongwith notes. There. We have a
really neat devotional on therefor the next couple days, which
is called cultivate the soil,which is really about how you
cultivating your soil, howyou're deepening and rooting
(17:44):
yourself. But we're gonna startin John chapter three, Matthew
Mark, Luke and John are thegospels that tell the story of
Jesus Christ, from birth in somegospels, to resurrection and
ascension and other gospels. Andthe Gospel of John is great. It
talks about the Divine LordJesus Christ, right? And so it
begins in a really incredibleway. And we're going to talk
about Jesus and John theBaptist. And I want to take you
(18:06):
through what is happening rightbefore this is that there was a
Pharisee Nicodemus who visitedJesus in the night. He wasn't
allowed to visit Jesus. Hewasn't allowed to see him during
the day, so he came under thecloak of night, visited Jesus
and asked him a question, howcan anyone be born after having
grown old? Because Jesus wassaying, you have to be born
again. And then they have thiswhole conversation about what it
(18:28):
means to be born of the kingdom.
And then you get this languagewith John the Baptist. John the
Baptist, who was the one doingthe baptisms before Jesus's
ministry. He was the one whopaved the way for Jesus, who
made a way in the wilderness.
And he said, I am baptizing younow with water. But Jesus, who
the one who's coming after me,who I'm not worthy to untie the
(18:49):
throng of his sandal, willbaptize you with the Holy
Spirit, and He is coming. Andthen even John, the Baptist, was
the one that baptized Jesus,even though he didn't want to
and said he wouldn't. Jesussaid, you're going to and he
said, Okay, I got it. So hebaptized Jesus. Here is what
happens in this text, John,chapter three, verses 22,
through 30. After this, Jesusand his disciples went into the
(19:12):
Judean countryside, and he spentsome time there with them.
Baptized. He spent some timewith them and baptized. John
also was baptizing at aenon nearSalim because water was abundant
there, and people kept comingand were being baptized. John,
of course, had yet not beenthrown into prison. Now, a
(19:33):
discussion about purificationarose between John's disciples
and a Jew. They came to John andsaid to him, Rabbi, teacher, the
one who was with you across theJordan, to whom you testified.
Here he is baptizing, and allare going to him. John answered,
No one can receive anythingexcept what has been given from
(19:54):
heaven. You yourselves are mywitnesses that I said. I am not
the Messiah, but. I have beensent ahead of him. He who has
the bride is the bridegroom, thefriend of the bridegroom who
stands and hears him rejoicesgreatly at the bridegroom's
voice. For this reason, my joyhas been fulfilled. He must
(20:15):
increase, I must decrease. Andthat's where we're going to
begin. So it's interesting. Iwant you to think about this
statement that happens at theend of this text. They're
saying, Hey, John, Jesus, rightover there, same river baptizing
(20:38):
people, and there's more peoplegoing to Jesus, and John's like,
Oh no, no, I'm gonna get themall back over here. Did you hear
that in the text? You didn'thear that in the text. What you
heard was John say, Hold on, thesame Jesus that was with me. The
same Jesus that I baptized. Thisis the Jesus that is baptizing
across the river, the one that Isaid that baptizes with the Holy
(20:59):
Spirit. This Jesus over here isbaptizing wonderful. I rejoice
at the sound of his voice. Myjoy is fulfilled in hearing him
and knowing that he is near us.
Jesus must increase and I mustdecrease. And this is where we
got into the issue with thechurch. See what ends up
happening with the church isthat we feel that when we have a
(21:22):
church, that you are all sheepof the neighborhood. You are all
inside of our wonderful grazingarea. It's a beautiful field. We
have great grass. It's reallywonderful, like it's the best in
Northwest Arkansas, and you cangraze for as long as you'd like.
We let in fact, we don't reallyask that much when you come into
(21:43):
our grazing area. We kind ofjust let you in. It's beautiful,
and you can graze in this area.
And we wonder, but if you leave,we got some questions, what?
Why? Where are you going? Why?
Why are you leaving? Did we notprovide you the space that you
needed? Did we were we not nextto you? Did we not have a
shepherd for you? What was goingon when you wandered through our
fields and different things likethat. What happened in the 90s
is that the church saw that thechurch was growing in these
(22:05):
multi site movements, and whatends up happening is you start
to silo in the churches.
Everyone says, I don't wantanother church next to me. I
don't want people that couldcome in and they could take our
people when we're forgetting, asJohn the Baptist says that hold
on a second. Who must increaseJesus and we must decrease. What
(22:28):
we start to have happen is viewthat the only way that we see
church and the only way that weattend church is the way that
church should be and the onlyplace that people should go. The
90s actually began somethingreally neat in the background,
which I believe, was a localchurch movement. When I first
started here, one of our goalswas to combine the area churches
(22:49):
in ministry and do and we workedon that for years, 567, years.
And the one thing I kept onhearing was, if we partner with
you, then all our people will goto your church? And I was like,
No, it's not the goal. Like ifwe partner, we can raise up the
kingdom, we can raise up thebody. We can see more people
come to Christ. And like, no,but our people would leave the
(23:11):
church. And that happens overand over and again throughout
the whole body of the church.
And then I started to realizeand ask a key question, do any
of our churches hold all of thepeople in Northwest Arkansas?
Not one church holds all wedon't have a giga church in
Northwest Arkansas. Not onechurch holds all the people. So
(23:33):
do we have room to be the localchurch in Northwest Arkansas,
walking people to Christ,wherever they would find that
relationship to Christ, we haveroom for that. And the wonderful
language that we should sharewith people is, hey, we are
raising Christ up. We have awonderful church. You should
come check it out. Hey, itwasn't really my vibe. That's
okay. What are you looking for?
(23:55):
What are you looking for?
Because I can guide you to achurch. I know lots of people
that go to different churches,would love to walk you into
another church. In fact, I havetold people, if this isn't the
church for you, I will walk youand introduce you to the pastors
that I know and a church that Ithink you'll fit. Because I want
you to find and develop yourfaith as a Christian. I want you
to be discipled, and if it's nothere, that's okay to me, because
there's room for growtheverywhere we can begin that.
(24:15):
And that's what John the Baptistis saying. Jesus must increase
and we must decrease. That's adiscipleship, and it's not just
for the church. Every one of uscan have that every single one
of us. Now I want you to turn toverse 26 and listen to this.
(24:36):
Verse. 26 says this. They cameto John and said to Him, Rabbi
the one who was with you acrossthe Jordan to whom you
testified, here he is baptizing,and all are going to him. Now I
want you to go back and listento the first part. Rabbi, the
one who was. With you, and Iwant you to stop there. May we
(25:02):
only be defined at a point inour life by saying, Rabbi, the
one who is with you. Nothingmore needs to be said. They
defined John the Baptist as theone with Jesus. And then what
(25:24):
did John do when they said, butit doesn't look like us, and
they're stealing our people, andhe's baptizing over there with
the Spirit, and we're baptizingwith water, and all the people
are going to him. This is where,when you are defined by Jesus,
and Jesus must increase and wemust decrease. John the Baptist
says, I delight in the name ofthe voice of the Lord, and in
(25:46):
that voice, my joy is fulfilled.
Jesus must increase and I mustdecrease. Is that the same
language that you have when youtalk with people and do they
define you by the one thatyou're with?
(26:08):
Hey, that's my friend. That's myfriend over there. Jess, she's
awesome. Yeah, super Christian.
Like, totally with Jesus.
Awesome. You love her. She'llpray for you. She'll do these
things. It's awesome. Is thathow people define. You see, what
I believe about church growth isthat church growth needs to be
rooted and relational. That'swhat church growth needs to be.
(26:28):
And what we saw in this multisite and mega movement is that
as you grow and as you increasethat as some of the relationship
starts to falter, because it'snot as rooted you can kind of
walk in and walk out. It's notas rooted in there. And the
difference is, is that when wetry to understand a personal
discipleship, you have to be inrelationship with people. That's
(26:49):
the reality. If you're cominghere just to consume the gospel
and not live it out, we'remissing a key step. And we have
to understand that if we'regoing to be a church that moves
the kingdom forward, and notjust the church forward. That's
who we need to be. And if youdidn't know, there are different
church models and church megasites, or mega site, multi site
(27:12):
and mega church, there aredifferent church models. And
it's interesting, because onceyou get larger, they sound very
business like, like, Did youknow The first model of a multi
site church. It's called afranchise. Does that make sense?
Right? It's franchise. And whatit is, it's, it's, you can
replicate it, right? You have astructure at the top. You
replicate what's on the bottom,and all you do is you take the
(27:33):
pastor and you stream them toanother church. Has anyone ever
been there to another churchwhere they stream the pastor?
Right? That's great. I've showedup to a couple churches where I
expected a pastor, and theystreamed in and out, and I was
like, well, where's that pastorat? And I was like, Can I go to
that church? Like, I don't. Imissed out what's happening. And
it's okay, because there werehundreds of people in this
auditorium experiencing this.
That's great. So you have thefranchise model, and then you
have Ooh, this is great. If youwant to learn about the multi
(27:55):
site Church, the modifiedfranchise, everyone go, ooh.
That gives the campus pastor theability to preach. Every now and
then. Have you seen that? Whenyou've walked in and it's like,
oh, there's a pastor preachingthis Sunday, you're like, why is
that? Because they allowed himone Sunday a year, and he got
the one Sunday, and he's cominghot, he's ready to preach the
Word. He's ready to go. That's amodified franchise model. Is
(28:19):
what happens from there. Andthen you get the campus model.
The campus model says, Hey, youhave kind of a little bit more
autonomy. You can work into thischurch and say that the pastor
will be the main one preaching,right? They kind of have
structure over the worshipteams. They have structure over
the ministries, right? They'reloosely connected right to the
top church that's out there thatplanted them and kind of set
them out. But really they'restarting to develop their own
(28:41):
thing. And the last model iscalled a church plant. That
church plant says, I amseparating myself from the multi
site church, and I'm going to domy own thing, but I was planted
from that church, and that's themulti site model of church
planting. Now all that is onlyabout church growth. That's it.
(29:01):
Every single one of these isonly about church growth, but
every one of you have a questionin this text and in your life as
church attenders, and this isthe question you should be
asking every single Sunday inthe life of you attending
(29:24):
church, what is your next step?
Now here's how that question isdifferent. If you come into
church without asking thatquestion, you're just attending
a church. If you come inactively seeking, what is your
next step in your relationshipwith God through this church now
(29:46):
you're in a discipleshipmovement, that's the key
difference. It's okay to behere. There are some people that
need a season of just coming tochurch and being present and
falling in love with church.
Again, embracing the church,again, being present,
understanding the church. But ifyou don't come into church
asking, What is my next step,then you're just attending a
(30:08):
church. That should be your keyquestion. No matter where you go
and where you attend, what is mynext step in my relationship
with God through this churchthat's a discipleship movement.
It's not the only question.
Here's the harder one, who areyou? Discipling, that doesn't
(30:33):
have to happen inside a church.
What's your next step? Is thechurch question? Who are you?
Discipling is your Christianquestion. Who are you?
Discipling says, What is Goddoing in your life, and who are
you bringing to the Lord?
Because God calls you to that,just like God called John the
Baptist. So if we are thinkingabout your life in the church
(30:56):
and the growth of the church,those key questions will help
guide you to who you are calledto become as a member of a
church. And all God's peoplesaid, Amen, let us pray heavenly
and gracious Father. We thankyou for bringing us here today
to talk through the life of thechurch and just understand a
(31:17):
little bit more about thehistory of the church and what
formed and Lord, this issomething so different from
these moments of the earlychurch and these moments of
gathering in homes and andbreaking bread with one another
and sharing the resources. Andyet we still do those same
things. But yet, Lord, as we gotinto these more recent moments,
we understand that we have amedia and a response, and it has
given us the way to grow thekingdom beyond our local church.
(31:40):
It's given us a way to grow intoother areas, into other homes,
and Lord, we've even experiencedthat here at the neighborhood
when people say, Hey, I'vewatched you online and I've
listened to the podcast and I'veand I've seen these, and they've
never stepped foot inside thischurch. Lord, we believe that
your kingdom can grow in anyway, and the church should
always be increasing JesusChrist and decreasing ourselves,
(32:02):
the same should be true in ourpersonal life. So Lord, be with
us this day. Let us ask thesehard questions in our
relationship of truly, what isour next step in this church,
and then also, who are youcalling us to disciple? Who are
you calling us to share ourtestimony with? And Lord, if I
say this out loud, I think manyof us already know, and it's
(32:24):
time to step into thatrelationship, to disciple them
for the sake of the kingdom, notjust for ourselves. And we pray
these things in your holy andprecious name, And all God's
people said, Amen. You guysenjoying our series on church
shopping. You.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.