April 1, 2025 • 55 mins
In this deeply personal episode, Pastor Benjamin Kandt sits down with Joshua Esquivel to explore his remarkable journey from legalistic religion and inner turmoil to vibrant faith and intimate communion with Jesus. Joshua shares candidly about growing up in a devout Seventh-day Adventist community, wrestling with shame surrounding his same-sex attraction, and the years of isolation, performance, and self-rejection that followed. He recounts his eventual “coming out,” the pain of family rejection, and the years he spent trying to find identity and peace through secular means, including New Age spirituality and relationships.
Everything began to change when Joshua prayed a half-sincere, half-desperate prayer surrendering his life to God. What followed was an unexpected and supernatural encounter with the grace of Jesus through Scripture, Reformed theology, and the ministry of the Holy Spirit. He speaks about his conviction of the Bible’s truth, his calling to celibacy, and the surprising joy and belonging he’s found in the body of Christ—particularly through New City. This is a testimony of gospel hope, identity rooted in Jesus, and the kind of transformation that only God can bring.
You can find the resources referenced in this episode here and here.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:15):
Hey, new City.
This is Benjamin King.
I am here with a good friend,joshua Esquivel, who has a
remarkable story of the grace ofGod in working in his life, and
I'm eager, excited,anticipatory to be able to have
this conversation with you,joshua, and for our listeners to
hear the story.
So thanks for being here withme, thanks for having me.
(00:37):
So you know we've had we werejust talking a little bit before
we started recording about ourtimeline of friendship together,
but I wouldn't mind.
Can you just share a bit ofyour story, of kind of how you
find yourself here today?
Now Some of your story of whatit looked like for you to come
to faith in Christ.
What was life like for youbefore that?
(01:00):
What were you seeking?
What were you up to?
Tell us a little bit about yourcontext.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
All right.
Well, I guess, like my storystarts in Oregon.
I was raised in SouthwestOregon in a devout Seventh-day
Adventist home, small town,small rural blue-collar
working-class town, and kind ofjust grew up in a little
Seventh-day Adventist bubble.
(01:26):
The community had a hugepresence and so even the school.
They had schools there.
So everything I knew was kindof in that world and I kind of
remember just having a goodchild, mostly good childhood,
just growing up with my parentsand living kind of this visceral
lifestyle of just hiking andhanging out with my parents and
(01:50):
friends and church stuff.
So it was a good childhood, Ithink.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
Hiking is a little different in Oregon than it is
in Central Florida.
Is that fair?
Yes, yes.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
We have Mount Dora.
We have Mount Dora, which I waslike I actually heard of it, I
Googled it and there's nomountain.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
There's not a Dora, which I was like I actually
heard of it and Googled it andlike there's no mountain.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
It's not a mountain.
No, you're like I knowmountains, yeah, when people say
they hike.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
I'm like where are you?
Speaker 2 (02:11):
Walk.
It's walking.
Yeah, that's right, but yeah,it's beautiful people.
Yeah, oh, they were so excitedto meet you and brothers and
sisters at New City and it wasthey were really holding back
tears?
I think yes.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
I love that opportunity, but yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
so I think, like my, I think my story kind of really
takes a turn around puberty timeBecause, you know, up until
then I feel like I would saythat my background was very
legalistic in a sense, it wasvery workspace, and we were, we
were going to church on theright day which is a big thing
for seventh day adventists andeating the diet.
Well, mostly correctly, wedidn't.
(02:53):
We were not vegans but, um, youknow, and so when the whole
issue of sexuality came up, um,I remember the seventh day
adventist school system had avideo that was kind of a
addition to the sex ed portionof the curriculum around sixth
grade-ish, somewhere in there,12 years old, and it was about
(03:14):
homosexuality.
And you know, about that time Ihad been, like remember, like
in my head, just arguing that Iwasn't gay, that I didn't have
same-sex attraction, that it wasjust a phase or if it was just
confusion or something.
And this video kind ofhighlighted multiple older
people and their experiences inthe gay lifestyle and how it was
(03:36):
very destructive for them.
And these people in the videoalso said it was a choice, and
so this was really like Iremember hearing those words and
thinking like I didn't choosethis.
And actually that was the firsttime that I think I felt a sense
of shame, intense shame thatthis is what I'm experiencing.
(03:58):
Something is wrong with me.
I'm defective, and we hear thatgrowing up in the church,
obviously that we were allsinners, but this feels like a
special category.
You are even more remarkablydefective than the average
sinner and I kind of went fromthis existence of just living
(04:21):
viscerally to being veryintrospective, being very in my
head, constantly dialoguing withmyself about how to hide it.
What do I do?
Do I?
You know, I did try for a longtime just to pray it away and
ask God to make me normal andeven, like it's interesting,
like with the whole issue of,you know, the trans issue of
(04:43):
today, you know, I look back andeven I remember dialoguing with
myself what if I was born inthe wrong body and I'm like oh
my goodness, if that hadhappened, if I was a child today
, this could have been a totallydifferent outcome.
Just crazy to think.
Yeah, so I think that was thefirst time where I felt my need
of Christ, but I didn't feel thepresence of Jesus's comfort,
(05:10):
love and mercy.
I felt condemnation.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
Wow, and in some ways , if I heard you, you know,
describing the religious part ofyour life as fairly legalistic.
In other words, there was notthis.
I am known and loved by the Godof the universe and you know,
jesus is my savior and friendand Lord and lover, and and the
father is, has adopted me as abeloved son and the spirit lives
(05:34):
within me.
That was not your experience.
Your experience was there'ssome rules you got to follow.
There's there's good people andbad people and uh, and and I
was in, it sounds like in thatmoment that sex ed video, you it
became, you became acutelyaware that you were in the bad
people category, very much so,and it wasn't a choice, it was
(05:55):
something that you were aware of.
That was that was true of you.
That in that moment you yourealize, wow, like I, like I'm
not on the good side of religionright now.
Yes, which I think is remarkable, and I want to be clear there
are people who grew up in thePresbyterian church, who their
experience of life with God isactually fundamentally religious
(06:20):
and legalistic.
And so this isn't a Seventh-dayAdventist thing, it's not a
Baptist thing, it's not a, youknow, episcopalian thing or
Anglican or Presbyterian thing,it's like a, it's like a
fundamental human thing which iswe can relate to God based on
performance and you know doingwhat, enough to accept and
receive and deserve God'skindness and um, and then if you
(06:43):
become aware of sin in yourlife, that is, it has an effect
on you.
So my hunch this is you know,oftentimes what happens is, the
effect is is that you gounderground with that sin, you
go into hiding.
Because if I let people knowthis, there's not, there's not
grace, there's not.
You know, there's not thesethings that invite us into the
(07:04):
open for freedom and healing andthose kinds of things.
How did that go for you?
What?
Speaker 2 (07:09):
was that like Very much.
In that way, I think, as I lookback on who I was as a kid back
then I can see myself shuttingdown and being so secretive of
my life, so very much, and noteven just in sexuality, but it's
almost like I didn't want tolet anybody too close to me and
(07:31):
too close.
I didn't feel comfortable beingvulnerable with people Because
inevitably that leads todiscussions on more intimate
parts of your life.
You're dating who are you, whoyou, who do you like, etc.
So I kind of walled myself off,I think, from having any
conversations that could be toodeep.
That would kind of make mevulnerable, I think, in a sense
(07:53):
of having to open up aboutissues like this, wow.
And then I think that alsosimultaneously I mean not
knowing what I was doing, Ithink unconsciously back then I
feel I was also starving forthat intimacy and wanting that
so badly, especially, I think,obviously with males, but not so
much even just sexually.
But I feel like I was the.
(08:15):
I thought of myself as beingnot the ideal person and wanting
the ideal males attention,affection, etc.
So I was very, I think,susceptible to wanting to be
liked, well-liked and wanted andbelong to a male community, and
(08:39):
that kind of manifested throughhigh school too.
I mean, I was so secretive andso I was praying to that God.
I mean, by the time high schoolstarted I feel like I had kind
of resigned myself to.
This is not changing.
So I need to either come togrips with how I'm going to live
, move forward and I think in away I kind of compartmentalized
(09:00):
the God part of my life.
Like I would have said.
I was a Christian, most likely,but I was living very secular, a
very secular life.
I wasn't going to churchanymore, I wasn't hanging out
with Christian people.
There was maybe a small time Iwent to church for a while, but
it was mostly a social, a socialevent thing, to belong again to
people.
So and I do remember like justbecoming very, very people
(09:23):
pleasing.
You know, I really cravedaffection and attention from
people and also validation.
So that was a big change.
I think that I would think thatprobably stemmed from that as
well.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
Well, I hear kind of the ambivalence right.
Well, I hear the kind of theambivalence right.
Like you craved attention,affection, to be known and loved
which is maybe my shorthanddefinition for community is like
just those places, those peopleby whom you're known and loved.
You long for that and also wereterrified of that Very much.
Because if people got closeenough to really know you, what
(10:02):
then?
right and so you know, I'venever considered it this way,
but there would be an agonyinternally of like the thing I'm
most afraid of is the thing Imost want.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
Yes, yes, very much so, and it's interesting that,
like you, I mean when I waspreparing for this and thinking
just kind of thinking back on mylife I was noticing things that
I hadn't probably been thoughtof before.
But every relationship that Iwas developing in those years
was geared towards what can Iget from that?
It wasn't a pure.
(10:34):
I love them as a friend.
It was.
I want status.
I wanted to be surrounded bythe beautiful popular people,
because I felt so defective thatit would might be elevate me to
.
You know their level orsomewhere approximating closer
to that.
Um, and yeah, that kind of thatpersisted into well, into
adulthood too, like I.
I, by the time, like thecollege years started, I totally
(10:57):
remember just being in thisemotional turmoil constantly of
of, um, what is my where?
Where am I with God?
Is there a God?
Who is this God?
Um, why would he condemn me toliving a life either to be
miserable on earth, um, or maybeeven hell?
(11:18):
I mean, it was just such aexistential crisis in my life
that persisted and, um, Idefinitely compensated with, you
know, in my late 20s with druguse and nothing hard but mostly
you know, marijuana andexperimenting, psychedelics and
things and just really just kindof living for hedonistic
(11:40):
pleasures.
I think of anything that couldkind of relieve the internal
turmoil and the associatedproblems with that kind of, I
think, mental state.
I wasn't doing wellacademically, I wasn't able to
concentrate on schoolwork,everything was wrapped around
either a guy I liked, where itcould have been a straight guy
too I spent years with straightmen and I wonder about that
(12:03):
because I think maybe, maybeinternally I'm like I'm getting
the emotional needs met and I'mnot sitting against God, or my
parents wouldn't be upset, andso there was this kind of weird
complex mess, I think, ofrelationships that I hadn't
endured or gone through until Icame out at 22.
I finally had the courage totell people and all of my
(12:28):
friends I mean in Oregon, soprogressive and crunchy granola,
they all they were all justlike, okay, we kind of knew and
we kind of don't care.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
We don't really care.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
And even even some Christian, most Christian people
I met where it was a non-issueWow, and it's such a, it's such
a ubiquitous thing nowadays andthey're just like okay, great,
right, we're going to find you aguy now.
How did?
Speaker 1 (12:48):
you come to that point, like you used the word
courage, or like somehow youcame to the point where it was
maybe, maybe you wouldn't usethis language.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
It was better out than in, almost like yeah, I
think you know, maybe maybecourage wasn't the right word,
maybe it was just you cantolerate a certain amount of
misery for so long.
And then you're just like, okay, what's the alternative?
I'm going to tell people andget rejected, or I'm going to
live this way, which is notliving really at all either.
(13:17):
And Facebook was pretty bigeverywhere, you know.
I just posted it on Facebook and, you know, my parents, my
parents' friends, saw it andthey told my parents.
And then my parents kind ofwaited for me one day after I
don't know, after work orsomething, and pulled me aside
(13:38):
and they were just shocked,disappointed.
I remember my dad, you know,just saying he's just so
disappointed in why I wouldchoose to live that way.
He's just so disappointed inwhy I would choose to live that
way and that was I rememberthose words very distinctly
because a huge resentment grewin my heart at that time.
I remember consciously justbeing so angry and hateful
(13:58):
towards them that they wouldhave raised me to hate myself
this way.
Speaker 1 (14:03):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
Because all of my friends' parents were like we
love you, no matter what.
We always cared about you.
We have no problem with this.
When are we going to find you aguy, et cetera.
And so I got this love from myfriends' parents and acceptance
that my parents didn't give me,and I remember just being so, so
(14:25):
angry and in a sense I almostwanted to emotionally hurt them,
and the pain that they felt forme distancing myself, I think
was very palpable and I almosttook pleasure in it.
I'm like well, this is yourfault.
If you hadn't raised me to be aChristian or to have Christian
sentiments, my life would havebeen, would be perfect right now
(14:45):
.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
And that's you know.
It damaged our, ourrelationship for years.
I think the drug use stopped.
I eventually kind of I went tocounseling and was able to
emotionally better myself a bitand go through school, went back
to back to school, to college,late.
I think I was 25 when I wentback to school, 25, 26.
Yeah, and so I guess the nextpart of my faith journey kind of
(15:12):
starts around 29, which by thattime I was still single.
What year would this have been?
This would have been, let methink here, probably 2000 and I
think 16, 18, 17.
I was 29 going into the nextyear and that's about to be 20
(15:35):
or about to be 30.
And I remember just being somiserable that I was still
single.
I'm financially doing well formyself, I'm a college graduate,
I'm making good money, I'mliving alone.
Why am I so miserable?
I have friends that love me.
I kind of have had a boost ofconfidence.
Up until that point myself-esteem had improved
(15:57):
somewhat.
But I think I still carried onthat schema of like,
worthlessness et cetera.
But it was.
It hadn't been as pronounced, Ithink, as prior before.
And I remember I was crying oneday and I'm not a big like, I
don't like crying, I don't likedoing it in front of people.
I'm glad you have tissues righthere.
(16:19):
It might start, but I rememberthose are always there for what
it's worth, but you are welcometo use them at any point as well
as me.
Speaker 1 (16:25):
I feel it coming on.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
I remember just feeling so lost in what I
thought my life would be at thispoint.
Why am I still single?
What is wrong with me that Ican't find somebody to love me?
Speaker 1 (16:43):
in a sense.
Speaker 2 (16:45):
And so I remember praying one day while I was
really emotional and I prayed toGod and I remember saying I
don't know what kind of God youare If the Bible I don't believe
that the Bible is infallibleand inerrant.
I didn't use those words, but Idid think that they were very
subjective and written by men,et cetera.
So I prayed and just said Lord,if being gay is wrong, you can
(17:09):
have it.
And I don't think I actuallymeant it completely, but I think
a think I actually meant itcompletely, but I think a part
of me did it.
Obviously I was willing to atleast verbalize it and say he
can have everything he can, hecan reveal himself to me, et
cetera.
But I didn't.
Um, I don't think I truly meantit.
Speaker 1 (17:27):
How did you come to that point, though?
Right Cause, cause, up to thispoint there's there's resentment
towards mom and dad for raisingme Christian right, yes, yes,
there's this kind of distancefrom God, like I'm in the bad
category, you've consigned me tomisery on earth and maybe even
hell, and then you go somehow,you get to the point where you
(17:50):
can say that kind of a prayer toGod, and again I hear you
saying you didn't really mean it, but to the best of your
knowledge, you meant it right,Like in that moment, you really
you were trying to be sincere.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
Yeah, well, I mean, I , I, I remember.
I remember at that time alsothat there's also a time where I
had I had kind of discoveredBrene Brown is a big, a big
thing, like I thought she wasthe biggest thing back then.
I read all of her books and I'mlike, oh, this is like I'm
trying to find, like how I canbe happy, and um, and not
(18:22):
finding it.
I remember being just sofrustrated, um, and I had always
, as you know, as a teenager, Iliked philosophy, I liked, um,
apologetics, actually, like I.
This is.
This is why it's so why theBible was so frustrating to me
was because I really enjoyedapologetics.
I remember being really intoZacharias and I remember just
(18:53):
thinking my values correlatewith the Christian worldview and
I really felt like theChristian worldview is the only
religion that's reallycompatible with so many of the
values that we hold in Westernsociety.
And so I just felt like, youknow, this God can't be an evil
God, it can't be a cruel God, ithas to be a loving God.
So I kind of, in a sense, Ithink I got to the point where
I'm going to challenge it.
I'm like you know, if you loveme, if you are a loving God,
(19:14):
then have at it.
You know, you can have my life.
And I remember, for some reasonthe only prayer that came to
mind was like, after thisexperience was just the Lord's
Prayer.
And so I started doing theLord's Prayer.
I just changed some of thewords, like instead of you know,
give us this day, I would saynight.
I would pray it at night beforeI went to bed.
(19:37):
And nothing much else changed.
I didn't start reading theBible, I didn't start listening
to sermons, I kind of continuedon with this Brene Brown thing,
and every time I read a book Iusually read the index and kind
of pick out some of the authorsthat are referenced in there and
read their books.
And so it kind of spiraled intoBuddhism, you know, buddhism
and new age stuff, and somewherein that, in either books or
(19:59):
podcasts.
I remember, like by the time Iturned 33, I was getting ready
to move here and I haddiscovered videos on YouTube and
podcasts with RC Sproul.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
Which I love.
You know, whenever we've talkedabout this, we've laughed about
the jump from bernie brown torc sproll.
It's just like and I love thatthere's just like.
I followed some footnotes and Ifound rc.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
Yeah, I remember, I wish, I wish I would have been
more like caught like consciousof this and I couldn't go back
and trace it back like how did Iget to this?
But I remember just being like,oh, this is interesting.
Like I hadn't heard, I hadn'tknown really anything about
reformed theology.
I didn't know anything and Ithink the first topic was
predestination and I'm like,well, this is really crazy, but
like it's really interesting.
(20:46):
So I kind of I moved here toFlorida and I would go on walks
every single day and I wouldjust listen to it like hours and
hours and hours.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
And those of us who believe in predestination, call
that the effectual calling ofthe Holy Spirit.
What was happening in your liferight then?
Speaker 2 (21:01):
So, as he went through the you know, the five
points of Calvinism, when I'mlike this is really like, like
it's, it's weirdly applying tomy life and I'm seeing it
everywhere and I'm like, well,no, like I don't know.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
What does everywhere?
And I'm like well, no, like Idon't know what does this mean?
Irresistible?
Speaker 2 (21:16):
grace?
Um, I don't know so.
And actually when I moved here,so my plan was to move here for
a job, I wanted to work, youknow, with neonates exclusively.
So I got a job at a NICU hereand then I also wanted to find a
guy.
So my whole plan was to comehere, start dating.
And I had started dating andnothing was working out and I
kind of got into a depression.
So I started seeing a counselorand it was actually what is it?
(21:40):
Is it Redeemer Counseling thatwe have here.
Speaker 1 (21:42):
That's something.
Speaker 2 (21:43):
It was Ashley, a counselor from there, so she was
helping me work through thisissue.
I was feeling, for some reason,I'm feeling this conflict of
like, is God okay withhomosexuality?
And I'm like this had beenalmost a resolved thing, like
maybe a kind of a little bitshaky.
But I never thought I'd bequestioning this again, like,
should I be dating?
And I chose a Christiancounselor for that reason.
(22:08):
I wanted a Christianperspective on this.
But anyways, I started listeningto a lot more of RC and then
Sinclair Ferguson, and when theygot to a special on the
inerrancy and fallibility of theBible, I remember hearing it
and it kind of took me back tolistening to apologetics earlier
(22:30):
in my in my youth and thinkingabout um, yeah, like I really
the Holy Spirit did something inmy life, I remember.
I remember feeling it becausethere there wasn't, like some, I
didn't, I didn't startresearching all of the reasons
why, why the Bible is factual,why it's a historical document
that can be relied upon.
None of that, it was just theHoly Spirit convicted me that I
(22:52):
believe that the Bible is real.
So amazing, I'm like I can't, Ican't.
You know, there's a scene inmovie Contact.
Have you ever heard that movie?
Speaker 1 (22:59):
Oh yeah, we were just talking about it yesterday.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
Actually, that is one of my favorite movies and
there's a line that gets me liketearing, crying.
It's at the very end, whenshe's like because I had an
experience and I can't explainit.
I have no hard evidence for it,but everything in me says it's
(23:20):
true.
That's exactly how I felt.
Wow, I'm like the Bible is theword of God.
It's so amazing.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
Let me you know, permit me to be a nerd for a
moment here.
The Westminster Confession ofFaith says in chapter one on
Holy Scripture, part five, itsays we may be moved and induced
by the testimony of the churchto a high and reverent esteem of
the Holy Scripture.
This is how this happens.
It goes through heaviness ofthe doctrine, efficacy of the
(23:48):
doctrine, majesty of the style,all these things, but it ends
and it says yet notwithstanding.
So, all these things, but itends and it says yet
notwithstanding so, all thesethings are great, yet
notwithstanding, our fullpersuasion and assurance of the
infallible truth and divineauthority thereof is from the
inward work of the Holy Spirit,bearing witness by and with the
word in our hearts.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
I love that.
That's beautiful.
It's so beautiful.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
Let the listener understand.
That's what you just got done,saying 100%.
You said that the fullpersuasion and assurance of the
infallible truth and divineauthority thereof came from the
inward work of the Holy Spiritbearing witness by and with the
word in your heart.
Very much so, and I just lovethat story.
It's so amazing.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
Well, and that's the thing, Like I do believe that
there are.
There is evidence forchristianity, there's evidence
for the bible, there's evidencefor, obviously, for jesus, etc.
But it's almost like what can?
What converted me with?
Just the holy spirit?
With with um.
Apart from that, in a sensealmost like that, that
reinforces my faith but my faithcame directly from just the
(24:51):
holy Spirit, which I think isremarkable.
Speaker 1 (24:54):
Yes, oh I love that so much.
So, even to recap, because yourstory is so riveting, by the
way, and you're an excellentstoryteller.
I hope so, and I think thecombination is because you have
a high level of self-awareness,like you knew what you were
feeling and thinking and youknew even your motives and
(25:17):
thinking and you knew even yourmotives and you knew, like those
kind of things give.
Henry Nowen said that thatwhich is most personal is most
universal.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
And so, like I'm hearing your story and you're
saying, you know, I, I needed toget something from all of my
relationships.
I couldn't love people freelybecause I needed to get
something from them.
And I'm thinking, man, Itotally know that experience
when the people I'm ordering mylife around me because I need to
get something from theserelationships, not because I
(25:43):
want to give something to theserelationships, and and it just
there's something so universalabout that, even even though you
were, you were disclosingsomething very personal in that.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
I'm so thankful for that.
Speaker 1 (25:53):
And so I love the arc too, of, you know, brene Brown.
One of my favorite things abouther work is her work on shame
and how vulnerability is theantidote to shame, this level of
like which is so, in my mind,so congruent with Genesis 3,
right, where they feel naked andashamed and so they cover
themselves with fig leaves tohide themselves, so they're no
(26:16):
longer vulnerable.
Right and and then the Lord, inhis mercy, comes and draw like
where are you?
Where are you Adam?
Where are you Joshua?
Where are you Benjamin?
Right, and there's thisinvitation, this beckoning to
come out of hiding and toreplace our fig leaves with
animal skins that are, you know,require a blood sacrifice, and
we'll get there.
Place our fig leaves withanimal skins that are, you know,
require a blood sacrifice, andwe'll get there.
(26:36):
Right, but but I, I love, Ilove that, I love that she
probably really helped prepareyour heart in some real ways to
for an antidote for your shamethrough vulnerability.
Yes, and then and then, forthat to be this, this invitation
into a new practice of prayingthe Lord's prayer, this
invitation into a new practiceof praying the Lord's prayer.
And here you are a part of achurch whose vision statement is
(26:59):
to see our father answer theLord's prayer.
Speaker 2 (27:01):
This is mind blowing.
How I found you city.
So this is just like oh, thisis crazy, so okay.
So, basically, like at thispoint, I'm like all right, the
Bible is true.
I I'm already convicted as towhat it says about homosexuality
, so I think the Lord is callingme to celibacy and singleness.
Speaker 1 (27:20):
Okay, this is amazing though, because some people
might think the Bible's true butthen argue as to whether or not
it really says that abouthomosexuality, celibacy, those
kinds of things.
That was just a foregoneconclusion to you.
It was like once I accepted thescriptures to be the word of
God infallible, authoritative,it was obvious to you, it was
(27:46):
self-evident to you that thatmeant I cannot live in
homosexual practice anymore, touse Paul's language.
Speaker 2 (27:48):
Yeah, I mean I think maybe growing up so in Tia de
Venice it was was I mean when Iwould read, I would read the
passages in scripture thatreferenced a little bit of
homosexuality.
But regardless of that, it'svery clear what the confines of
appropriate sexual behavior arein general, and that's man,
woman and marriage.
So it was really.
(28:10):
I never questioned what theBible said per se on it.
It was kind of do I believethat the Bible is true on this,
and so I was always kind ofjustifying my behavior in a
sense by saying well, one, Idon't believe necessarily that
God is the God of the Bible, letalone that this is inerrant and
infallible.
Wow, so once I accepted thatthat was the Bible, the Bible is
(28:33):
infallible and inerrant then Ithink I it was so quick and easy
for me to accept that this iswhat God's calling me to either
this or he's going to sanctifyme and and and correct my sexual
sin and, you know, make meheterosexual, which I didn't
really.
I mean I, I I'm not saying it'simpossible.
I mean I hear people say that,that, that this is a reality in
their lives and that he's doneit, but I just I don't see it
(28:56):
for me necessarily, but you knowit's in his hands.
Speaker 1 (29:01):
But you know, I love the.
There's such a humility and achildlike simplicity about that
right that there's just thissense of like.
Hey, I'm sure that's otherpeople's stories.
It might be mine, I don't thinkit's going to be mine, but I
trust my father.
It's in his hands.
I trust him to take care of mein this Yep that's exactly it.
Speaker 2 (29:24):
That's exactly how I felt, especially so.
Sinclair had a sermon on whatGod thinks about us and how he
views us and in that sermon Iremember just listening to it
and feeling like everything Ihave been craving for with males
in general, but really with anyrelationship, whether it was
(29:47):
work, whether it was justfriends and status, et cetera
everything is found in Jesus.
Wow, and status et ceteraeverything is found in Jesus.
Wow, and when I felt that, Ijust remember feeling like, okay
, I can endure this, I canendure this.
I'm going to be miserable forthe rest of my life and I'm
going to be single, but you knowwhat I'll get to be with Jesus
(30:09):
in the end, so I can do this.
And I felt that was it.
Story closed, go on with life.
But I started getting thisnagging feeling, this nagging
thought in my head of like maybeyou should go to church.
And I remember arguing with it.
I mean, I am not going tochurch, that's the last thing I
(30:29):
want to do, especially living inlike well, people tell me that
Florida, like central Florida,is not the bible belt.
Yeah, I, I always attributedthis whole area, along with the
south, as being the biblecompared to portland, compared
to we probably are compared towestern, the west coast, um.
So I was like, no, I'm gonna getrejected.
I'm going to be like why isthis person here?
(30:50):
Like I am not, I'm not doing it.
Wow, I don't remember how longI argued with God about it, but
at one point, um, I was justlike, fine, I'll do it.
And I knew there was a SeventhAdventist church across the
street.
I live like right across thestreet from the whole life
church, so from where we gatherfor worship.
And so I was like, okay, I'llstart going there.
And the people were wonderful,everyone was friendly and loving
(31:12):
.
But I felt pretty convicted,with my now-reformed convictions
, that I was like I just don't,I'm not getting what I think I
need from these sermons.
So I'm like, well then, I don'tknow, I don't know what to do.
So I remember, like Wikipedia,doing a Wikipedia search on like
what denomination was RC in?
(31:33):
And RC, you know, I'm I'm likereading their biographies and
reading on on wikipedia and I'mlike, oh, my goodness, they're
big in central florida.
And I was like what?
I'm like this is crazy, likethis has to be a god thing, this
is so I remember beingflabbergasted about the like god
led me to the area where thesepeople, who are so pivotal in my
(31:54):
conversion story, preached andworked.
Speaker 1 (31:58):
Sinclair Ferguson's preached at New City, I think
two or three times.
I hope he comes.
Speaker 2 (32:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:04):
Well, we'll see if we can make it happen just for you
.
Honestly, it would be worth it.
Speaker 2 (32:08):
The waterworks show will be on and I'll be like
thank you, thank you.
Speaker 1 (32:11):
And RC, of course, started a church here in Central
Florida that is still here.
And yeah, there's justsomething so remarkable about
that.
And if you'll send me theSinclair Ferguson sermon.
I will put it in the show notesfor this podcast so that people
can listen to it, because Iwould love for us to be able to
hear that.
So you're finding out that youmay actually be not only getting
(32:34):
tricked into becoming Christianby the Holy Spirit, but
becoming a Presbyterian by theHoly Spirit.
Yes, very much.
Tell us more about that.
That's been my own experiencetoo.
Yeah, I mean.
Speaker 2 (32:46):
I got on board with so many of the five points of
Calvinism, but thepredestination one at that point
was still shaky, like I didbelieve.
I mean, it made so much senseto me, like in my heart I felt
like it was true, but I'm like,ah, but I just can't reconcile
how God can choose some and notothers.
Anyway, so that was, that wasthe kind of the one that took a
(33:08):
couple of years, I think now toaccept.
But yeah, so I I was like, well, well, what's the closest pca
church?
So I googled, like what's it?
And it was the same building onsundays.
So I'm like all right, well,and actually my counselor, I had
stopped going, I had stoppedgoing to counseling.
But my counselor told me at onepoint she was like there's a
(33:29):
church in town.
Um ben kant is a pastor.
He's also a counselor, if youever want to talk to him.
I'm like all right, whatever.
Speaker 1 (33:35):
But I, I got your number, I think from her, but
I'd never used it um I don'tremember I don't actually and I
were friends from seminary,which is just so amazing,
amazing she's an amazing woman,she is.
Speaker 2 (33:45):
But, um, I think I reached out to amy through the
church website first, amy wilson, and she connected me with you
and we met and I remember justthinking I'm like, all right,
well, the moment he like if Iever feel any sense of judgment
or anything, I'm just going toabandon this.
And I never got that.
We met for lunch.
I never got an ounce ofjudgment or condemnation, it's
(34:07):
just like just love andacceptance and I'm like all
right, I'll give it a try.
I'll give it a try and I'm aback.
I'm not an extrovert.
People think I'm veryextroverted because I've learned
how to make myself beextroverted.
Speaker 1 (34:20):
Because you're kind and sociable and friendly, but
it's maybe not energizing.
Speaker 2 (34:23):
No, I'm a back row person by nature.
I want to get in, listen to thesermon and bounce, and so I
think I did that, for maybe thefirst sermon I went to and I
loved it, or the first service Iwent to was amazing, and then I
think it was the second orthird.
I tried leaving right away.
(34:46):
and this guy JJ I forget hislast name because he left for
Thailand or something not toolong after, but he ran me down.
He's like, hey, I saw that youcome in and you try and leave
right away.
I'm like I used to be that guy.
Do you want to come to ourcommunity group?
At some point and I was like Ilove it, no, no, I don't.
But I'm like, okay, I'll go.
So I said yes, but I fullyintended not to go and I still
went and I got to meet theHamples and the Mosses and Sarah
(35:12):
from the church and everyonewas so kind and loving and
gracious and I'm like all right,I guess I can start going and
before you know it, I'm a memberof the church and on a podcast
with me and you know I've got tosay this.
(35:34):
So, before I forget, I wanted toinclude this in this podcast.
'm like don't if you forgetanything, don't forget this
story, but I remember like I wasum city life is not my thing.
I, I really was missing oregon,and so at the two-year mark of
being here, which was january of2024- or three, four, one of
those I don't remember.
But, um, I was thinking maybe Imight move back home.
(35:54):
Um, but I love, I loved newcity so much and we had um seek
night here at the church officeson on new year's eve and um
kelly haddock was singing withher little ukulele yep, and this
is so funny too, because I somy mom has always been a big
Christian music singer orlistener and she loves Christian
(36:16):
music.
And in my teens and in my 20sand in my rebellious years, I
was like, oh, this music is soterrible, like how can anyone
like this stuff?
It's so corny.
Speaker 1 (36:27):
And all the.
Speaker 2 (36:27):
Christians with their hands in the air.
I'm like this is ridiculous.
But she was.
But now I love it.
I now I'm just like, oh my god,I listen to like worship music
all the time.
Um, but kelly was singing thatsong, gratitude from I think
brandon lake is the guy's nameand, um, she had asked everybody
to kind of reflect on your year, um, and so I was just thinking
(36:50):
about what the lord has done inmy life and I remember like,
just like I hate crying and Ijust like I hate crying and I
was like breaking down andcrying and I was sitting next to
Sarah from church and I'm likeI'm not even sad, like I am, I
am overwhelmed with gratitudefor what the Lord has done in my
life, like I did not realizehow much I needed community and
(37:11):
how much.
I needed brothers and sisters inthe faith and I was so resigned
to a life of being maybe lonelyand thinking of being okay with
it being.
This is what God wants.
You know.
I will be rewarded in heaven.
Speaker 1 (37:29):
You know whatever.
Speaker 2 (37:32):
And then just reflecting on what he had done,
leading me to New City this is apractice that Brene Brown
actually recommends is likepeople, the people who feel most
satisfied in life she was, shehad said previously are people
who practice gratitude, and thisis something that every single
day, every single day I I canhave.
(37:55):
I moved over almost to tears,if not actual tears, by what God
has done in my life and it'sjust, it was a transformative
emotion.
Gratitude it's all you canoffer is just gratitude back to
the Lord.
Wow, amazing.
So thank you, ben, and New Citybecause the Lord works through
(38:15):
people.
Speaker 1 (38:15):
And.
Speaker 2 (38:16):
I think he worked through your church to lead me
to a life that I never wouldhave guessed prior to moving
here.
This would be me in 2025.
Speaker 1 (38:26):
My goodness, oh, my goodness, it's crazy.
Well, yeah, thank you, lordJesus.
We honor you for the fact thatyou are so gracious towards us
and I'm so thankful for Joshuaand this testimony of your grace
and that we can laugh and cryand rejoice all of those things.
We thank you, lord, amen.
(38:47):
Um man, yeah, I, there's.
That's just a moment rightthere of like there's a doxology
, I think, of both of our heartstowards the Lord for his
kindness Very much and for ourfriendship, like I just, I love
you so much.
You're my brother and my friendand I said before we started
recording, like I am soencouraged by you, like your
(39:09):
life your witness to the beautyof Jesus, to the worthiness of
Jesus.
It is so necessary for me, melike I need it.
And you know, if I back up alittle bit in the story from
from my perspective, I wassharing this before we started
recording and I realized I'dnever shared this before with
(39:29):
you.
In in in May of 2023, we starteda prayer meeting on a weekday
prayer meeting on Wednesdays,and it's, you know, it's a Seek
Orlando prayer meeting, seeingeveryone enjoy the King we pray
with for and as the Church ofOrlando.
You know, for the city ofOrlando, and to be in Orlando to
(39:50):
bear witness to Jesus inOrlando means an integral what
Leslie Newbigin would call amissionary encounter with the
LGBTQ plus community.
It's just core to what it meansto live in Orlando and, um, and
so one of the reasons why Amyconnected you with me is because
, uh, it's in my privatepractice and my counseling
practice.
I work with men trying toreconcile their sexuality and
(40:11):
their spirituality.
That's, that's a core uhpopulation that I work with and
it's something dear to my ownheart.
And, and so that was why shewas like, oh, you should meet
with Ben.
That's my, I think that's myhunch, right, and so, cause you
were pretty honest in your emailto her, yeah, I was very open.
Yeah, which is a characteristicof yours that I so admire, your,
your, your openness and andwillingness, and it's even
(40:35):
interesting to hear that, inlight of the fact that there was
a time when you were veryclosed off.
Oh yeah very much, very, verymuch.
So in May we start this prayermeeting and I, around that time,
I watched that movie, jesusRevolution, which was about the
Jesus people and which was maybeone of the last really evident
outpourings of the Holy Spiritin American history in 1960s.
(40:58):
And it happened among thepeople you'd least expect, which
was the hippie movement, whowere the counterculture movement
, everything that, theestablishment which was
Christian and all these thingsin America.
It was just against all thosethings, and God, in his divine
comedy, decided to pour out hisHoly Spirit on that group of
people and create this radicalconversion revival among the
(41:20):
hippie movement on the WestCoast.
And so I watched that movie andafterwards I asked the Lord, I
was just kind of contemplating,like what would this look like
today?
And it was so obvious to me itwould be the LGBTQ plus
community, like if God wanted toget glory for his name, it
would be to make the gospel goodnews in that community.
(41:41):
And so it became actually oneof our prayer aims in our
Wednesday prayer gathering forSeek Orlando, which was we need
to pray for the gay community inOrlando.
Why would we not, you know?
And and so we started prayingin May of 2023 and you and I met
in August of 2023.
And so you know, william Templesaid when I pray, coincidences
(42:01):
happen, when I don't, they don't.
Speaker 2 (42:02):
Right.
Speaker 1 (42:04):
And so that might be a coincidence, it might be
answered prayer, it might be,but regardless, both of us can
testify that this was God.
This was God at work in hisinfinite mercy towards you,
towards me, towards.
Speaker 2 (42:16):
I mean, it's just like so remarkable, it's just
absolutely remarkable what hecan do to the most unlikely of
people.
Yes, who you know, and it'salways the people who feel like
they need Christ the most.
I feel like that he moves inthem and has that space to work
in their lives and I felt that Ineeded Jesus so badly and I
(42:37):
hope I really pray for the gaycommunity that people can
experience what it feels like tohave a taste of Jesus.
Um, because there is nothingmore satisfying in this life
than than to be loved by him.
Wow, yes, Nothing.
Speaker 1 (42:54):
Oh, I love it.
I love that so much.
Ah, don't cry, Well, I canremember sitting down with you
for coffee I don't know when, ayear ago or something like that
and this marked me Like Ihaven't forgotten this.
I don't want to forget thisbecause it was so meaningful.
I was checking in on you, right?
(43:14):
There is a costliness to yourobedience that somebody like
myself who's married with kids Idon't experience that same
level of costliness.
Now I have my own ways in whichfollowing Christ is to deny
myself, take up my cross andfollow him.
Of course, but there's adifference in that way in
particular, and I asked youbasically just was checking in
(43:35):
like how are you doing?
You know, and and?
And you said something to theeffect of you know, I am at my
apartment by myself all day andI, I just talk to Jesus and I
pray and I sing to him and Iread scripture.
And you were, and you said andI just have so much joy.
(43:56):
And it was like that is soamazing yeah.
Speaker 2 (44:01):
Yeah, I mean there are moments when I feel sorry
for myself, or I do have momentsof sadness.
I hate February.
Oh my goodness.
I've always been single forValentine's Day and that whole
month.
I just get so much nausea justlooking around.
And I feel so mean I feel somean.
I'm so judgy.
(44:21):
I'm like, oh, here we go.
Speaker 1 (44:23):
Get over yourself.
Speaker 2 (44:25):
But you know, one of the gifts I think of being
single is that I have so muchmore time to spend with the Lord
in conversational prayer, andeven at work I find myself in
between patients, just talkingto the Lord and either praying a
quick prayer for a baby or forthe parents or for you know just
(44:47):
the Lord is becoming Jesus, isalmost like a tangible person in
a sense that I can communicatewith, and that relationship is
so profoundly real that thatloneliness really so often is
not there.
It's just that you're justfeeling the overwhelming sense
(45:10):
of joy that you can talk to theLord.
And even in those times whenI'm sad and feeling sorry for
myself or having a depressedweek or something, even in that
I want to talk to him about it,which is amazing.
Another song that brings me totears always is that goodness of
God.
And just looking back on mylife, I know that there's a lot
of suffering because as I'mtalking about it it comes up a
(45:33):
bit, but I can see him with methrough that all the time.
Speaker 1 (45:37):
Wow, it's just beautiful.
Yeah Well, you just used theword I was going to use in my
question, which is, and you'redescribing it now what has been
unexpectedly beautiful inbelonging to Jesus and what has
been, maybe, unexpectedlydifficult at times.
Speaker 2 (45:53):
I think the unexpected beauty is how much I
care about our community.
You know the church, theuniversal church, but also
specifically New City as well.
I feel a sense of not justbelonging but of responsibility.
I want to participate, I wantto help the body of the church
(46:15):
and and um take upresponsibility for the for, for
the service, as a sense ofgratitude for what the lord has
done in my life and and there isa sense also of like um.
One of the most beautiful thingsI think the lord has done in my
life has been giving me ameaning that surpasses even my,
(46:36):
my job, I mean.
I mean, I'm I'm a respiratorytherapist, so I work only with
babies, um, in a newborn ICU,and I've always had this sense
of my job matters.
I, I take care of the sickestof the sick, babies, and we're
helping them grow and developand hopefully become, you know,
thriving, thriving children, um.
(46:58):
But there is nothing moreimportant and more valuable and
more meaningful than to share mystory and pray that someone
will come to Jesus for it.
Wow, that.
That is the, the.
What gives me the most meaningin my life is talking to people
and sharing with what what hehas done in my life.
You're doing it now which issuch a gift to me.
Speaker 1 (47:19):
I'm receiving it right now as such a it's
meaningful to me.
How would you describe what'sbeen unexpectedly difficult?
Speaker 2 (47:32):
Unexpectedly difficult.
I feel like, in a sense, youknow my life before coming to
faith, I think, was very secular.
I had all my friends weresecular and now, coming to
Florida, all of my friendships,all of my relationships are
faith-based.
They're all friends of fellowbelievers and I do feel like
(47:55):
there is almost like thisdistance between my secular life
now and my and my Christianlife.
That, um, I feel sometimes likeI'm worried that I'm losing the
friends that I had um in mysecular life because either
because they, um, we don't have,we don't share that, that
(48:16):
lifestyle of living for Christ.
So I think that there is workfor me to learn how to reconcile
those relationships andmaintain them, because I do
think it's important to maintaincontact, obviously, with the
secular world I mean, we live init and the challenges of
sharing my story and notoffending people, of sharing my
(48:37):
story and not offending people.
You know, I live in a worldwhere the LGBTQ presence is
everywhere, at work, in everycommunity function, and when I
share my story I pray thatpeople won't hear it, as I'm now
righteous and they need toconvert and give their lives up.
I want them to just feel likethe love that the father has for
(49:02):
them, yeah, so I feel likethat's that's a challenge as
well, too.
How do I share my story and notcreate enmity, I think, with
with people who don't share that?
Speaker 1 (49:13):
that worldview.
Yeah, wow, there's something.
So I mean the story of therelationship between the gay
community and the church is thatit's God versus the gays right,
or God hates the gays, or not.
The church's witness has notbeen.
God loves the gay community andloves the gay community so much
that he's calling her to and afaith in Jesus, because there's
(49:36):
so much more on offer and and so, um, I'm, I'm, really I'm so
glad this has not been yourexperience at New City.
But some people that are, uh,that follow Jesus and obedience
with their sexuality, like youdo, often feel like they're in a
, like a, a, an in-between spacewhere they don't quite fit into
the church, because the churchis usually structured for
(49:59):
heterosexual married coupleswith their families and their
children and whatnot, and theydon't fit into the gay community
that they've now left, becausethe structure there is built
around expressing your sexualityin the ways that are prohibited
for followers of Jesus, right.
And so there's this like wheredo I belong?
And I hear you saying thechurch has not that's not been
(50:20):
your experience at New City,it's not been your experience
with the church but that therewould be a potential
ostracization or rejection inthe gay community if you were to
be more forthright about yourstory.
And how do I do that withoutalienating or coming across as
holier-than-thou type thing?
Speaker 2 (50:38):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, because I mean it's important to
share what God has done in mylife with people.
But, you know, I've actuallycome across this at work, where
I know somebody who is openlygay and married to someone, and
I wonder, oh, I hope that when Ishare what God is doing in my
(51:00):
life and where he's led me, thatthey don't feel like I am
condemning them.
I don't want them to feel likeI'm judging them.
Yet at the same time, I wantthem to know that there's a life
that's fully amazing in Christ,that he can satisfy that desire
that we all have for belongingand meaning and, um, he can be
(51:25):
everything for you, um, yeahthat's um, wow, and coming from
your lips has more credibilitythan mine, to be honest.
Speaker 1 (51:34):
um, in that community in particular, there's uh, even
Even to me, I hear you describeit and I think you're living
proof of that.
You're proof of concept, right.
Speaker 2 (51:44):
I wish somebody had told me.
There was a time I remember,when I was 19 or 20, maybe even
20, I had kind of flunked out ofcollege.
I went to a seventh-dayAdventist college for a year and
I didn't do well, I did verypoorly academically and I was
smoking pot all the time.
And I remember just being somiserable and I had tried to go
(52:05):
to school at a differentuniversity in Oregon and I kind
of had like an emotionalbreakdown of just feeling the
conflict, the conflict of ofbeing in the closet still at
that time as well, but also justlike feeling like something is
wrong in my life.
And I remember driving to aSeventh-day Adventist church, a
(52:26):
random church in a town that Iwasn't from and just wanted to
talk to a pastor, and I justfelt so lost and the church was
closed, nobody was there and youknow it was a fleeting moment.
I went back home and calmeddown and haven't thought about
that again for almost like over10 years now.
But I, as I were talking now,I'm just thinking I wish that
(52:50):
somebody had been there.
Or you know that I met a PCApastor somewhere and someone
would have told me what it'slike to be in love with Jesus,
because I think that's somethingthat I never understood.
You hear that we love Jesus, welove Jesus, but it never
clicked to me.
What does it mean to be in lovewith Jesus, to have him be the
(53:12):
first thought in your head whenyou wake up, almost like you're
in a relationship with somebody,like a loving relationship, a
spouse.
He is everything to you and I'mlike if people knew that side
of Christianity, that Jesuswants to be your everything and
he can satisfy you in a way thatyou will never meet with any
(53:34):
other person, I think that wouldbe life-changing.
People would just be floored,especially, you know, the gay
community, I think too.
I think if they, if they couldonly know how satisfying a
relationship with Jesus can be,be life-changing.
Speaker 1 (53:49):
That's such a good word.
I could talk to you for anotherhour, but I want to end there.
And and the reason why isbecause there was a, there was a
call in that, Uh, and I don'tis because there was a, there
was a call in that, Uh, and Idon't know that you meant it
that way, but that's the way Ireceived it, which is just like
few of us recognize that.
How how many people thatprobably are like you were in
(54:10):
that moment.
Just like if, if, somebody wouldhave just told me you know, if
anybody would have just what we,you know, if anybody would have
just what we, you know what theBible calls, just bear witness
to the fact that Jesus is worthit, that he's worth it, he's.
You know, jesus is overeverything, he's my Lord, he's
my lover, he's superior, supreme, all those things.
And that our listeners, youknow, many of whom will be New
(54:34):
City congregants, are aroundthose people today.
I almost guarantee that, uh,that there's somebody that
they'll interact with today thatif, if, if we would bear
witness to the goodness of Jesus, they would be, they would be
like oh, there actually is hope,there actually is something on
offer.
Well, thank you, thank you foryour friendship, thank you for
this conversation, thank you foryour, your life in Christ.
(54:57):
Your life in Christ and theways in which you are.
You are evidence of the graceof God, and I know that you
can't take credit for that, butI can, but I can say thank you
for receiving and responding tothe work of God in your life in
the ways that you have, becauseit's, it's such an encouragement
to me.
Praise God.
Praise God, you too.
(55:24):
You, it's gone.
It's gone, you too.
Hey, new City.
This is Benjamin King.
I am here with a good friend,joshua Esquivel, who has a
remarkable story of the grace ofGod in working in his life, and
I'm eager, excited,anticipatory to be able to have
this conversation with you,joshua, and for our listeners to
hear the story.
So thanks for being here withme, thanks for having me.
(00:37):
So you know we've had we werejust talking a little bit before
we started recording about ourtimeline of friendship together,
but I wouldn't mind.
Can you just share a bit ofyour story, of kind of how you
find yourself here today?
Now Some of your story of whatit looked like for you to come
to faith in Christ.
What was life like for youbefore that?
(01:00):
What were you seeking?
What were you up to?
Tell us a little bit about yourcontext.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
All right.
Well, I guess, like my storystarts in Oregon.
I was raised in SouthwestOregon in a devout Seventh-day
Adventist home, small town,small rural blue-collar
working-class town, and kind ofjust grew up in a little
Seventh-day Adventist bubble.
(01:26):
The community had a hugepresence and so even the school.
They had schools there.
So everything I knew was kindof in that world and I kind of
remember just having a goodchild, mostly good childhood,
just growing up with my parentsand living kind of this visceral
lifestyle of just hiking andhanging out with my parents and
(01:50):
friends and church stuff.
So it was a good childhood, Ithink.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
Hiking is a little different in Oregon than it is
in Central Florida.
Is that fair?
Yes, yes.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
We have Mount Dora.
We have Mount Dora, which I waslike I actually heard of it, I
Googled it and there's nomountain.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
There's not a Dora, which I was like I actually
heard of it and Googled it andlike there's no mountain.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
It's not a mountain.
No, you're like I knowmountains, yeah, when people say
they hike.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
I'm like where are you?
Speaker 2 (02:11):
Walk.
It's walking.
Yeah, that's right, but yeah,it's beautiful people.
Yeah, oh, they were so excitedto meet you and brothers and
sisters at New City and it wasthey were really holding back
tears?
I think yes.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
I love that opportunity, but yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
so I think, like my, I think my story kind of really
takes a turn around puberty timeBecause, you know, up until
then I feel like I would saythat my background was very
legalistic in a sense, it wasvery workspace, and we were, we
were going to church on theright day which is a big thing
for seventh day adventists andeating the diet.
Well, mostly correctly, wedidn't.
(02:53):
We were not vegans but, um, youknow, and so when the whole
issue of sexuality came up, um,I remember the seventh day
adventist school system had avideo that was kind of a
addition to the sex ed portionof the curriculum around sixth
grade-ish, somewhere in there,12 years old, and it was about
(03:14):
homosexuality.
And you know, about that time Ihad been, like remember, like
in my head, just arguing that Iwasn't gay, that I didn't have
same-sex attraction, that it wasjust a phase or if it was just
confusion or something.
And this video kind ofhighlighted multiple older
people and their experiences inthe gay lifestyle and how it was
(03:36):
very destructive for them.
And these people in the videoalso said it was a choice, and
so this was really like Iremember hearing those words and
thinking like I didn't choosethis.
And actually that was the firsttime that I think I felt a sense
of shame, intense shame thatthis is what I'm experiencing.
(03:58):
Something is wrong with me.
I'm defective, and we hear thatgrowing up in the church,
obviously that we were allsinners, but this feels like a
special category.
You are even more remarkablydefective than the average
sinner and I kind of went fromthis existence of just living
(04:21):
viscerally to being veryintrospective, being very in my
head, constantly dialoguing withmyself about how to hide it.
What do I do?
Do I?
You know, I did try for a longtime just to pray it away and
ask God to make me normal andeven, like it's interesting,
like with the whole issue of,you know, the trans issue of
(04:43):
today, you know, I look back andeven I remember dialoguing with
myself what if I was born inthe wrong body and I'm like oh
my goodness, if that hadhappened, if I was a child today
, this could have been a totallydifferent outcome.
Just crazy to think.
Yeah, so I think that was thefirst time where I felt my need
of Christ, but I didn't feel thepresence of Jesus's comfort,
(05:10):
love and mercy.
I felt condemnation.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
Wow, and in some ways , if I heard you, you know,
describing the religious part ofyour life as fairly legalistic.
In other words, there was notthis.
I am known and loved by the Godof the universe and you know,
jesus is my savior and friendand Lord and lover, and and the
father is, has adopted me as abeloved son and the spirit lives
(05:34):
within me.
That was not your experience.
Your experience was there'ssome rules you got to follow.
There's there's good people andbad people and uh, and and I
was in, it sounds like in thatmoment that sex ed video, you it
became, you became acutelyaware that you were in the bad
people category, very much so,and it wasn't a choice, it was
(05:55):
something that you were aware of.
That was that was true of you.
That in that moment you yourealize, wow, like I, like I'm
not on the good side of religionright now.
Yes, which I think is remarkable, and I want to be clear there
are people who grew up in thePresbyterian church, who their
experience of life with God isactually fundamentally religious
(06:20):
and legalistic.
And so this isn't a Seventh-dayAdventist thing, it's not a
Baptist thing, it's not a, youknow, episcopalian thing or
Anglican or Presbyterian thing,it's like a, it's like a
fundamental human thing which iswe can relate to God based on
performance and you know doingwhat, enough to accept and
receive and deserve God'skindness and um, and then if you
(06:43):
become aware of sin in yourlife, that is, it has an effect
on you.
So my hunch this is you know,oftentimes what happens is, the
effect is is that you gounderground with that sin, you
go into hiding.
Because if I let people knowthis, there's not, there's not
grace, there's not.
You know, there's not thesethings that invite us into the
(07:04):
open for freedom and healing andthose kinds of things.
How did that go for you?
What?
Speaker 2 (07:09):
was that like Very much.
In that way, I think, as I lookback on who I was as a kid back
then I can see myself shuttingdown and being so secretive of
my life, so very much, and noteven just in sexuality, but it's
almost like I didn't want tolet anybody too close to me and
(07:31):
too close.
I didn't feel comfortable beingvulnerable with people Because
inevitably that leads todiscussions on more intimate
parts of your life.
You're dating who are you, whoyou, who do you like, etc.
So I kind of walled myself off,I think, from having any
conversations that could be toodeep.
That would kind of make mevulnerable, I think, in a sense
(07:53):
of having to open up aboutissues like this, wow.
And then I think that alsosimultaneously I mean not
knowing what I was doing, Ithink unconsciously back then I
feel I was also starving forthat intimacy and wanting that
so badly, especially, I think,obviously with males, but not so
much even just sexually.
But I feel like I was the.
(08:15):
I thought of myself as beingnot the ideal person and wanting
the ideal males attention,affection, etc.
So I was very, I think,susceptible to wanting to be
liked, well-liked and wanted andbelong to a male community, and
(08:39):
that kind of manifested throughhigh school too.
I mean, I was so secretive andso I was praying to that God.
I mean, by the time high schoolstarted I feel like I had kind
of resigned myself to.
This is not changing.
So I need to either come togrips with how I'm going to live
, move forward and I think in away I kind of compartmentalized
(09:00):
the God part of my life.
Like I would have said.
I was a Christian, most likely,but I was living very secular, a
very secular life.
I wasn't going to churchanymore, I wasn't hanging out
with Christian people.
There was maybe a small time Iwent to church for a while, but
it was mostly a social, a socialevent thing, to belong again to
people.
So and I do remember like justbecoming very, very people
(09:23):
pleasing.
You know, I really cravedaffection and attention from
people and also validation.
So that was a big change.
I think that I would think thatprobably stemmed from that as
well.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
Well, I hear kind of the ambivalence right.
Well, I hear the kind of theambivalence right.
Like you craved attention,affection, to be known and loved
which is maybe my shorthanddefinition for community is like
just those places, those peopleby whom you're known and loved.
You long for that and also wereterrified of that Very much.
Because if people got closeenough to really know you, what
(10:02):
then?
right and so you know, I'venever considered it this way,
but there would be an agonyinternally of like the thing I'm
most afraid of is the thing Imost want.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
Yes, yes, very much so, and it's interesting that,
like you, I mean when I waspreparing for this and thinking
just kind of thinking back on mylife I was noticing things that
I hadn't probably been thoughtof before.
But every relationship that Iwas developing in those years
was geared towards what can Iget from that?
It wasn't a pure.
(10:34):
I love them as a friend.
It was.
I want status.
I wanted to be surrounded bythe beautiful popular people,
because I felt so defective thatit would might be elevate me to
.
You know their level orsomewhere approximating closer
to that.
Um, and yeah, that kind of thatpersisted into well, into
adulthood too, like I.
I, by the time, like thecollege years started, I totally
(10:57):
remember just being in thisemotional turmoil constantly of
of, um, what is my where?
Where am I with God?
Is there a God?
Who is this God?
Um, why would he condemn me toliving a life either to be
miserable on earth, um, or maybeeven hell?
(11:18):
I mean, it was just such aexistential crisis in my life
that persisted and, um, Idefinitely compensated with, you
know, in my late 20s with druguse and nothing hard but mostly
you know, marijuana andexperimenting, psychedelics and
things and just really just kindof living for hedonistic
(11:40):
pleasures.
I think of anything that couldkind of relieve the internal
turmoil and the associatedproblems with that kind of, I
think, mental state.
I wasn't doing wellacademically, I wasn't able to
concentrate on schoolwork,everything was wrapped around
either a guy I liked, where itcould have been a straight guy
too I spent years with straightmen and I wonder about that
(12:03):
because I think maybe, maybeinternally I'm like I'm getting
the emotional needs met and I'mnot sitting against God, or my
parents wouldn't be upset, andso there was this kind of weird
complex mess, I think, ofrelationships that I hadn't
endured or gone through until Icame out at 22.
I finally had the courage totell people and all of my
(12:28):
friends I mean in Oregon, soprogressive and crunchy granola,
they all they were all justlike, okay, we kind of knew and
we kind of don't care.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
We don't really care.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
And even even some Christian, most Christian people
I met where it was a non-issueWow, and it's such a, it's such
a ubiquitous thing nowadays andthey're just like okay, great,
right, we're going to find you aguy now.
How did?
Speaker 1 (12:48):
you come to that point, like you used the word
courage, or like somehow youcame to the point where it was
maybe, maybe you wouldn't usethis language.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
It was better out than in, almost like yeah, I
think you know, maybe maybecourage wasn't the right word,
maybe it was just you cantolerate a certain amount of
misery for so long.
And then you're just like, okay, what's the alternative?
I'm going to tell people andget rejected, or I'm going to
live this way, which is notliving really at all either.
(13:17):
And Facebook was pretty bigeverywhere, you know.
I just posted it on Facebook and, you know, my parents, my
parents' friends, saw it andthey told my parents.
And then my parents kind ofwaited for me one day after I
don't know, after work orsomething, and pulled me aside
(13:38):
and they were just shocked,disappointed.
I remember my dad, you know,just saying he's just so
disappointed in why I wouldchoose to live that way.
He's just so disappointed inwhy I would choose to live that
way and that was I rememberthose words very distinctly
because a huge resentment grewin my heart at that time.
I remember consciously justbeing so angry and hateful
(13:58):
towards them that they wouldhave raised me to hate myself
this way.
Speaker 1 (14:03):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
Because all of my friends' parents were like we
love you, no matter what.
We always cared about you.
We have no problem with this.
When are we going to find you aguy, et cetera.
And so I got this love from myfriends' parents and acceptance
that my parents didn't give me,and I remember just being so, so
(14:25):
angry and in a sense I almostwanted to emotionally hurt them,
and the pain that they felt forme distancing myself, I think
was very palpable and I almosttook pleasure in it.
I'm like well, this is yourfault.
If you hadn't raised me to be aChristian or to have Christian
sentiments, my life would havebeen, would be perfect right now
(14:45):
.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
And that's you know.
It damaged our, ourrelationship for years.
I think the drug use stopped.
I eventually kind of I went tocounseling and was able to
emotionally better myself a bitand go through school, went back
to back to school, to college,late.
I think I was 25 when I wentback to school, 25, 26.
Yeah, and so I guess the nextpart of my faith journey kind of
(15:12):
starts around 29, which by thattime I was still single.
What year would this have been?
This would have been, let methink here, probably 2000 and I
think 16, 18, 17.
I was 29 going into the nextyear and that's about to be 20
(15:35):
or about to be 30.
And I remember just being somiserable that I was still
single.
I'm financially doing well formyself, I'm a college graduate,
I'm making good money, I'mliving alone.
Why am I so miserable?
I have friends that love me.
I kind of have had a boost ofconfidence.
Up until that point myself-esteem had improved
(15:57):
somewhat.
But I think I still carried onthat schema of like,
worthlessness et cetera.
But it was.
It hadn't been as pronounced, Ithink, as prior before.
And I remember I was crying oneday and I'm not a big like, I
don't like crying, I don't likedoing it in front of people.
I'm glad you have tissues righthere.
(16:19):
It might start, but I rememberthose are always there for what
it's worth, but you are welcometo use them at any point as well
as me.
Speaker 1 (16:25):
I feel it coming on.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
I remember just feeling so lost in what I
thought my life would be at thispoint.
Why am I still single?
What is wrong with me that Ican't find somebody to love me?
Speaker 1 (16:43):
in a sense.
Speaker 2 (16:45):
And so I remember praying one day while I was
really emotional and I prayed toGod and I remember saying I
don't know what kind of God youare If the Bible I don't believe
that the Bible is infallibleand inerrant.
I didn't use those words, but Idid think that they were very
subjective and written by men,et cetera.
So I prayed and just said Lord,if being gay is wrong, you can
(17:09):
have it.
And I don't think I actuallymeant it completely, but I think
a think I actually meant itcompletely, but I think a part
of me did it.
Obviously I was willing to atleast verbalize it and say he
can have everything he can, hecan reveal himself to me, et
cetera.
But I didn't.
Um, I don't think I truly meantit.
Speaker 1 (17:27):
How did you come to that point, though?
Right Cause, cause, up to thispoint there's there's resentment
towards mom and dad for raisingme Christian right, yes, yes,
there's this kind of distancefrom God, like I'm in the bad
category, you've consigned me tomisery on earth and maybe even
hell, and then you go somehow,you get to the point where you
(17:50):
can say that kind of a prayer toGod, and again I hear you
saying you didn't really mean it, but to the best of your
knowledge, you meant it right,Like in that moment, you really
you were trying to be sincere.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
Yeah, well, I mean, I , I, I remember.
I remember at that time alsothat there's also a time where I
had I had kind of discoveredBrene Brown is a big, a big
thing, like I thought she wasthe biggest thing back then.
I read all of her books and I'mlike, oh, this is like I'm
trying to find, like how I canbe happy, and um, and not
(18:22):
finding it.
I remember being just sofrustrated, um, and I had always
, as you know, as a teenager, Iliked philosophy, I liked, um,
apologetics, actually, like I.
This is.
This is why it's so why theBible was so frustrating to me
was because I really enjoyedapologetics.
I remember being really intoZacharias and I remember just
(18:53):
thinking my values correlatewith the Christian worldview and
I really felt like theChristian worldview is the only
religion that's reallycompatible with so many of the
values that we hold in Westernsociety.
And so I just felt like, youknow, this God can't be an evil
God, it can't be a cruel God, ithas to be a loving God.
So I kind of, in a sense, Ithink I got to the point where
I'm going to challenge it.
I'm like you know, if you loveme, if you are a loving God,
(19:14):
then have at it.
You know, you can have my life.
And I remember, for some reasonthe only prayer that came to
mind was like, after thisexperience was just the Lord's
Prayer.
And so I started doing theLord's Prayer.
I just changed some of thewords, like instead of you know,
give us this day, I would saynight.
I would pray it at night beforeI went to bed.
(19:37):
And nothing much else changed.
I didn't start reading theBible, I didn't start listening
to sermons, I kind of continuedon with this Brene Brown thing,
and every time I read a book Iusually read the index and kind
of pick out some of the authorsthat are referenced in there and
read their books.
And so it kind of spiraled intoBuddhism, you know, buddhism
and new age stuff, and somewherein that, in either books or
(19:59):
podcasts.
I remember, like by the time Iturned 33, I was getting ready
to move here and I haddiscovered videos on YouTube and
podcasts with RC Sproul.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
Which I love.
You know, whenever we've talkedabout this, we've laughed about
the jump from bernie brown torc sproll.
It's just like and I love thatthere's just like.
I followed some footnotes and Ifound rc.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
Yeah, I remember, I wish, I wish I would have been
more like caught like consciousof this and I couldn't go back
and trace it back like how did Iget to this?
But I remember just being like,oh, this is interesting.
Like I hadn't heard, I hadn'tknown really anything about
reformed theology.
I didn't know anything and Ithink the first topic was
predestination and I'm like,well, this is really crazy, but
like it's really interesting.
(20:46):
So I kind of I moved here toFlorida and I would go on walks
every single day and I wouldjust listen to it like hours and
hours and hours.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
And those of us who believe in predestination, call
that the effectual calling ofthe Holy Spirit.
What was happening in your liferight then?
Speaker 2 (21:01):
So, as he went through the you know, the five
points of Calvinism, when I'mlike this is really like, like
it's, it's weirdly applying tomy life and I'm seeing it
everywhere and I'm like, well,no, like I don't know.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
What does everywhere?
And I'm like well, no, like Idon't know what does this mean?
Irresistible?
Speaker 2 (21:16):
grace?
Um, I don't know so.
And actually when I moved here,so my plan was to move here for
a job, I wanted to work, youknow, with neonates exclusively.
So I got a job at a NICU hereand then I also wanted to find a
guy.
So my whole plan was to comehere, start dating.
And I had started dating andnothing was working out and I
kind of got into a depression.
So I started seeing a counselorand it was actually what is it?
(21:40):
Is it Redeemer Counseling thatwe have here.
Speaker 1 (21:42):
That's something.
Speaker 2 (21:43):
It was Ashley, a counselor from there, so she was
helping me work through thisissue.
I was feeling, for some reason,I'm feeling this conflict of
like, is God okay withhomosexuality?
And I'm like this had beenalmost a resolved thing, like
maybe a kind of a little bitshaky.
But I never thought I'd bequestioning this again, like,
should I be dating?
And I chose a Christiancounselor for that reason.
(22:08):
I wanted a Christianperspective on this.
But anyways, I started listeningto a lot more of RC and then
Sinclair Ferguson, and when theygot to a special on the
inerrancy and fallibility of theBible, I remember hearing it
and it kind of took me back tolistening to apologetics earlier
(22:30):
in my in my youth and thinkingabout um, yeah, like I really
the Holy Spirit did something inmy life, I remember.
I remember feeling it becausethere there wasn't, like some, I
didn't, I didn't startresearching all of the reasons
why, why the Bible is factual,why it's a historical document
that can be relied upon.
None of that, it was just theHoly Spirit convicted me that I
(22:52):
believe that the Bible is real.
So amazing, I'm like I can't, Ican't.
You know, there's a scene inmovie Contact.
Have you ever heard that movie?
Speaker 1 (22:59):
Oh yeah, we were just talking about it yesterday.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
Actually, that is one of my favorite movies and
there's a line that gets me liketearing, crying.
It's at the very end, whenshe's like because I had an
experience and I can't explainit.
I have no hard evidence for it,but everything in me says it's
(23:20):
true.
That's exactly how I felt.
Wow, I'm like the Bible is theword of God.
It's so amazing.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
Let me you know, permit me to be a nerd for a
moment here.
The Westminster Confession ofFaith says in chapter one on
Holy Scripture, part five, itsays we may be moved and induced
by the testimony of the churchto a high and reverent esteem of
the Holy Scripture.
This is how this happens.
It goes through heaviness ofthe doctrine, efficacy of the
(23:48):
doctrine, majesty of the style,all these things, but it ends
and it says yet notwithstanding.
So, all these things, but itends and it says yet
notwithstanding so, all thesethings are great, yet
notwithstanding, our fullpersuasion and assurance of the
infallible truth and divineauthority thereof is from the
inward work of the Holy Spirit,bearing witness by and with the
word in our hearts.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
I love that.
That's beautiful.
It's so beautiful.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
Let the listener understand.
That's what you just got done,saying 100%.
You said that the fullpersuasion and assurance of the
infallible truth and divineauthority thereof came from the
inward work of the Holy Spiritbearing witness by and with the
word in your heart.
Very much so, and I just lovethat story.
It's so amazing.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
Well, and that's the thing, Like I do believe that
there are.
There is evidence forchristianity, there's evidence
for the bible, there's evidencefor, obviously, for jesus, etc.
But it's almost like what can?
What converted me with?
Just the holy spirit?
With with um.
Apart from that, in a sensealmost like that, that
reinforces my faith but my faithcame directly from just the
(24:51):
holy Spirit, which I think isremarkable.
Speaker 1 (24:54):
Yes, oh I love that so much.
So, even to recap, because yourstory is so riveting, by the
way, and you're an excellentstoryteller.
I hope so, and I think thecombination is because you have
a high level of self-awareness,like you knew what you were
feeling and thinking and youknew even your motives and
(25:17):
thinking and you knew even yourmotives and you knew, like those
kind of things give.
Henry Nowen said that thatwhich is most personal is most
universal.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
And so, like I'm hearing your story and you're
saying, you know, I, I needed toget something from all of my
relationships.
I couldn't love people freelybecause I needed to get
something from them.
And I'm thinking, man, Itotally know that experience
when the people I'm ordering mylife around me because I need to
get something from theserelationships, not because I
(25:43):
want to give something to theserelationships, and and it just
there's something so universalabout that, even even though you
were, you were disclosingsomething very personal in that.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
I'm so thankful for that.
Speaker 1 (25:53):
And so I love the arc too, of, you know, brene Brown.
One of my favorite things abouther work is her work on shame
and how vulnerability is theantidote to shame, this level of
like which is so, in my mind,so congruent with Genesis 3,
right, where they feel naked andashamed and so they cover
themselves with fig leaves tohide themselves, so they're no
(26:16):
longer vulnerable.
Right and and then the Lord, inhis mercy, comes and draw like
where are you?
Where are you Adam?
Where are you Joshua?
Where are you Benjamin?
Right, and there's thisinvitation, this beckoning to
come out of hiding and toreplace our fig leaves with
animal skins that are, you know,require a blood sacrifice, and
we'll get there.
Place our fig leaves withanimal skins that are, you know,
require a blood sacrifice, andwe'll get there.
(26:36):
Right, but but I, I love, Ilove that, I love that she
probably really helped prepareyour heart in some real ways to
for an antidote for your shamethrough vulnerability.
Yes, and then and then, forthat to be this, this invitation
into a new practice of prayingthe Lord's prayer, this
invitation into a new practiceof praying the Lord's prayer.
And here you are a part of achurch whose vision statement is
(26:59):
to see our father answer theLord's prayer.
Speaker 2 (27:01):
This is mind blowing.
How I found you city.
So this is just like oh, thisis crazy, so okay.
So, basically, like at thispoint, I'm like all right, the
Bible is true.
I I'm already convicted as towhat it says about homosexuality
, so I think the Lord is callingme to celibacy and singleness.
Speaker 1 (27:20):
Okay, this is amazing though, because some people
might think the Bible's true butthen argue as to whether or not
it really says that abouthomosexuality, celibacy, those
kinds of things.
That was just a foregoneconclusion to you.
It was like once I accepted thescriptures to be the word of
God infallible, authoritative,it was obvious to you, it was
(27:46):
self-evident to you that thatmeant I cannot live in
homosexual practice anymore, touse Paul's language.
Speaker 2 (27:48):
Yeah, I mean I think maybe growing up so in Tia de
Venice it was was I mean when Iwould read, I would read the
passages in scripture thatreferenced a little bit of
homosexuality.
But regardless of that, it'svery clear what the confines of
appropriate sexual behavior arein general, and that's man,
woman and marriage.
So it was really.
(28:10):
I never questioned what theBible said per se on it.
It was kind of do I believethat the Bible is true on this,
and so I was always kind ofjustifying my behavior in a
sense by saying well, one, Idon't believe necessarily that
God is the God of the Bible, letalone that this is inerrant and
infallible.
Wow, so once I accepted thatthat was the Bible, the Bible is
(28:33):
infallible and inerrant then Ithink I it was so quick and easy
for me to accept that this iswhat God's calling me to either
this or he's going to sanctifyme and and and correct my sexual
sin and, you know, make meheterosexual, which I didn't
really.
I mean I, I I'm not saying it'simpossible.
I mean I hear people say that,that, that this is a reality in
their lives and that he's doneit, but I just I don't see it
(28:56):
for me necessarily, but you knowit's in his hands.
Speaker 1 (29:01):
But you know, I love the.
There's such a humility and achildlike simplicity about that
right that there's just thissense of like.
Hey, I'm sure that's otherpeople's stories.
It might be mine, I don't thinkit's going to be mine, but I
trust my father.
It's in his hands.
I trust him to take care of mein this Yep that's exactly it.
Speaker 2 (29:24):
That's exactly how I felt, especially so.
Sinclair had a sermon on whatGod thinks about us and how he
views us and in that sermon Iremember just listening to it
and feeling like everything Ihave been craving for with males
in general, but really with anyrelationship, whether it was
(29:47):
work, whether it was justfriends and status, et cetera
everything is found in Jesus.
Wow, and status et ceteraeverything is found in Jesus.
Wow, and when I felt that, Ijust remember feeling like, okay
, I can endure this, I canendure this.
I'm going to be miserable forthe rest of my life and I'm
going to be single, but you knowwhat I'll get to be with Jesus
(30:09):
in the end, so I can do this.
And I felt that was it.
Story closed, go on with life.
But I started getting thisnagging feeling, this nagging
thought in my head of like maybeyou should go to church.
And I remember arguing with it.
I mean, I am not going tochurch, that's the last thing I
(30:29):
want to do, especially living inlike well, people tell me that
Florida, like central Florida,is not the bible belt.
Yeah, I, I always attributedthis whole area, along with the
south, as being the biblecompared to portland, compared
to we probably are compared towestern, the west coast, um.
So I was like, no, I'm gonna getrejected.
I'm going to be like why isthis person here?
(30:50):
Like I am not, I'm not doing it.
Wow, I don't remember how longI argued with God about it, but
at one point, um, I was justlike, fine, I'll do it.
And I knew there was a SeventhAdventist church across the
street.
I live like right across thestreet from the whole life
church, so from where we gatherfor worship.
And so I was like, okay, I'llstart going there.
And the people were wonderful,everyone was friendly and loving
(31:12):
.
But I felt pretty convicted,with my now-reformed convictions
, that I was like I just don't,I'm not getting what I think I
need from these sermons.
So I'm like, well then, I don'tknow, I don't know what to do.
So I remember, like Wikipedia,doing a Wikipedia search on like
what denomination was RC in?
(31:33):
And RC, you know, I'm I'm likereading their biographies and
reading on on wikipedia and I'mlike, oh, my goodness, they're
big in central florida.
And I was like what?
I'm like this is crazy, likethis has to be a god thing, this
is so I remember beingflabbergasted about the like god
led me to the area where thesepeople, who are so pivotal in my
(31:54):
conversion story, preached andworked.
Speaker 1 (31:58):
Sinclair Ferguson's preached at New City, I think
two or three times.
I hope he comes.
Speaker 2 (32:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:04):
Well, we'll see if we can make it happen just for you
.
Honestly, it would be worth it.
Speaker 2 (32:08):
The waterworks show will be on and I'll be like
thank you, thank you.
Speaker 1 (32:11):
And RC, of course, started a church here in Central
Florida that is still here.
And yeah, there's justsomething so remarkable about
that.
And if you'll send me theSinclair Ferguson sermon.
I will put it in the show notesfor this podcast so that people
can listen to it, because Iwould love for us to be able to
hear that.
So you're finding out that youmay actually be not only getting
(32:34):
tricked into becoming Christianby the Holy Spirit, but
becoming a Presbyterian by theHoly Spirit.
Yes, very much.
Tell us more about that.
That's been my own experiencetoo.
Yeah, I mean.
Speaker 2 (32:46):
I got on board with so many of the five points of
Calvinism, but thepredestination one at that point
was still shaky, like I didbelieve.
I mean, it made so much senseto me, like in my heart I felt
like it was true, but I'm like,ah, but I just can't reconcile
how God can choose some and notothers.
Anyway, so that was, that wasthe kind of the one that took a
(33:08):
couple of years, I think now toaccept.
But yeah, so I I was like, well, well, what's the closest pca
church?
So I googled, like what's it?
And it was the same building onsundays.
So I'm like all right, well,and actually my counselor, I had
stopped going, I had stoppedgoing to counseling.
But my counselor told me at onepoint she was like there's a
(33:29):
church in town.
Um ben kant is a pastor.
He's also a counselor, if youever want to talk to him.
I'm like all right, whatever.
Speaker 1 (33:35):
But I, I got your number, I think from her, but
I'd never used it um I don'tremember I don't actually and I
were friends from seminary,which is just so amazing,
amazing she's an amazing woman,she is.
Speaker 2 (33:45):
But, um, I think I reached out to amy through the
church website first, amy wilson, and she connected me with you
and we met and I remember justthinking I'm like, all right,
well, the moment he like if Iever feel any sense of judgment
or anything, I'm just going toabandon this.
And I never got that.
We met for lunch.
I never got an ounce ofjudgment or condemnation, it's
(34:07):
just like just love andacceptance and I'm like all
right, I'll give it a try.
I'll give it a try and I'm aback.
I'm not an extrovert.
People think I'm veryextroverted because I've learned
how to make myself beextroverted.
Speaker 1 (34:20):
Because you're kind and sociable and friendly, but
it's maybe not energizing.
Speaker 2 (34:23):
No, I'm a back row person by nature.
I want to get in, listen to thesermon and bounce, and so I
think I did that, for maybe thefirst sermon I went to and I
loved it, or the first service Iwent to was amazing, and then I
think it was the second orthird.
I tried leaving right away.
(34:46):
and this guy JJ I forget hislast name because he left for
Thailand or something not toolong after, but he ran me down.
He's like, hey, I saw that youcome in and you try and leave
right away.
I'm like I used to be that guy.
Do you want to come to ourcommunity group?
At some point and I was like Ilove it, no, no, I don't.
But I'm like, okay, I'll go.
So I said yes, but I fullyintended not to go and I still
went and I got to meet theHamples and the Mosses and Sarah
(35:12):
from the church and everyonewas so kind and loving and
gracious and I'm like all right,I guess I can start going and
before you know it, I'm a memberof the church and on a podcast
with me and you know I've got tosay this.
(35:34):
So, before I forget, I wanted toinclude this in this podcast.
'm like don't if you forgetanything, don't forget this
story, but I remember like I wasum city life is not my thing.
I, I really was missing oregon,and so at the two-year mark of
being here, which was january of2024- or three, four, one of
those I don't remember.
But, um, I was thinking maybe Imight move back home.
(35:54):
Um, but I love, I loved newcity so much and we had um seek
night here at the church officeson on new year's eve and um
kelly haddock was singing withher little ukulele yep, and this
is so funny too, because I somy mom has always been a big
Christian music singer orlistener and she loves Christian
(36:16):
music.
And in my teens and in my 20sand in my rebellious years, I
was like, oh, this music is soterrible, like how can anyone
like this stuff?
It's so corny.
Speaker 1 (36:27):
And all the.
Speaker 2 (36:27):
Christians with their hands in the air.
I'm like this is ridiculous.
But she was.
But now I love it.
I now I'm just like, oh my god,I listen to like worship music
all the time.
Um, but kelly was singing thatsong, gratitude from I think
brandon lake is the guy's nameand, um, she had asked everybody
to kind of reflect on your year, um, and so I was just thinking
(36:50):
about what the lord has done inmy life and I remember like,
just like I hate crying and Ijust like I hate crying and I
was like breaking down andcrying and I was sitting next to
Sarah from church and I'm likeI'm not even sad, like I am, I
am overwhelmed with gratitudefor what the Lord has done in my
life, like I did not realizehow much I needed community and
(37:11):
how much.
I needed brothers and sisters inthe faith and I was so resigned
to a life of being maybe lonelyand thinking of being okay with
it being.
This is what God wants.
You know.
I will be rewarded in heaven.
Speaker 1 (37:29):
You know whatever.
Speaker 2 (37:32):
And then just reflecting on what he had done,
leading me to New City this is apractice that Brene Brown
actually recommends is likepeople, the people who feel most
satisfied in life she was, shehad said previously are people
who practice gratitude, and thisis something that every single
day, every single day I I canhave.
(37:55):
I moved over almost to tears,if not actual tears, by what God
has done in my life and it'sjust, it was a transformative
emotion.
Gratitude it's all you canoffer is just gratitude back to
the Lord.
Wow, amazing.
So thank you, ben, and New Citybecause the Lord works through
(38:15):
people.
Speaker 1 (38:15):
And.
Speaker 2 (38:16):
I think he worked through your church to lead me
to a life that I never wouldhave guessed prior to moving
here.
This would be me in 2025.
Speaker 1 (38:26):
My goodness, oh, my goodness, it's crazy.
Well, yeah, thank you, lordJesus.
We honor you for the fact thatyou are so gracious towards us
and I'm so thankful for Joshuaand this testimony of your grace
and that we can laugh and cryand rejoice all of those things.
We thank you, lord, amen.
(38:47):
Um man, yeah, I, there's.
That's just a moment rightthere of like there's a doxology
, I think, of both of our heartstowards the Lord for his
kindness Very much and for ourfriendship, like I just, I love
you so much.
You're my brother and my friendand I said before we started
recording, like I am soencouraged by you, like your
(39:09):
life your witness to the beautyof Jesus, to the worthiness of
Jesus.
It is so necessary for me, melike I need it.
And you know, if I back up alittle bit in the story from
from my perspective, I wassharing this before we started
recording and I realized I'dnever shared this before with
(39:29):
you.
In in in May of 2023, we starteda prayer meeting on a weekday
prayer meeting on Wednesdays,and it's, you know, it's a Seek
Orlando prayer meeting, seeingeveryone enjoy the King we pray
with for and as the Church ofOrlando.
You know, for the city ofOrlando, and to be in Orlando to
(39:50):
bear witness to Jesus inOrlando means an integral what
Leslie Newbigin would call amissionary encounter with the
LGBTQ plus community.
It's just core to what it meansto live in Orlando and, um, and
so one of the reasons why Amyconnected you with me is because
, uh, it's in my privatepractice and my counseling
practice.
I work with men trying toreconcile their sexuality and
(40:11):
their spirituality.
That's, that's a core uhpopulation that I work with and
it's something dear to my ownheart.
And, and so that was why shewas like, oh, you should meet
with Ben.
That's my, I think that's myhunch, right, and so, cause you
were pretty honest in your emailto her, yeah, I was very open.
Yeah, which is a characteristicof yours that I so admire, your,
your, your openness and andwillingness, and it's even
(40:35):
interesting to hear that, inlight of the fact that there was
a time when you were veryclosed off.
Oh yeah very much, very, verymuch.
So in May we start this prayermeeting and I, around that time,
I watched that movie, jesusRevolution, which was about the
Jesus people and which was maybeone of the last really evident
outpourings of the Holy Spiritin American history in 1960s.
(40:58):
And it happened among thepeople you'd least expect, which
was the hippie movement, whowere the counterculture movement
, everything that, theestablishment which was
Christian and all these thingsin America.
It was just against all thosethings, and God, in his divine
comedy, decided to pour out hisHoly Spirit on that group of
people and create this radicalconversion revival among the
(41:20):
hippie movement on the WestCoast.
And so I watched that movie andafterwards I asked the Lord, I
was just kind of contemplating,like what would this look like
today?
And it was so obvious to me itwould be the LGBTQ plus
community, like if God wanted toget glory for his name, it
would be to make the gospel goodnews in that community.
(41:41):
And so it became actually oneof our prayer aims in our
Wednesday prayer gathering forSeek Orlando, which was we need
to pray for the gay community inOrlando.
Why would we not, you know?
And and so we started prayingin May of 2023 and you and I met
in August of 2023.
And so you know, william Templesaid when I pray, coincidences
(42:01):
happen, when I don't, they don't.
Speaker 2 (42:02):
Right.
Speaker 1 (42:04):
And so that might be a coincidence, it might be
answered prayer, it might be,but regardless, both of us can
testify that this was God.
This was God at work in hisinfinite mercy towards you,
towards me, towards.
Speaker 2 (42:16):
I mean, it's just like so remarkable, it's just
absolutely remarkable what hecan do to the most unlikely of
people.
Yes, who you know, and it'salways the people who feel like
they need Christ the most.
I feel like that he moves inthem and has that space to work
in their lives and I felt that Ineeded Jesus so badly and I
(42:37):
hope I really pray for the gaycommunity that people can
experience what it feels like tohave a taste of Jesus.
Um, because there is nothingmore satisfying in this life
than than to be loved by him.
Wow, yes, Nothing.
Speaker 1 (42:54):
Oh, I love it.
I love that so much.
Ah, don't cry, Well, I canremember sitting down with you
for coffee I don't know when, ayear ago or something like that
and this marked me Like Ihaven't forgotten this.
I don't want to forget thisbecause it was so meaningful.
I was checking in on you, right?
(43:14):
There is a costliness to yourobedience that somebody like
myself who's married with kids Idon't experience that same
level of costliness.
Now I have my own ways in whichfollowing Christ is to deny
myself, take up my cross andfollow him.
Of course, but there's adifference in that way in
particular, and I asked youbasically just was checking in
(43:35):
like how are you doing?
You know, and and?
And you said something to theeffect of you know, I am at my
apartment by myself all day andI, I just talk to Jesus and I
pray and I sing to him and Iread scripture.
And you were, and you said andI just have so much joy.
(43:56):
And it was like that is soamazing yeah.
Speaker 2 (44:01):
Yeah, I mean there are moments when I feel sorry
for myself, or I do have momentsof sadness.
I hate February.
Oh my goodness.
I've always been single forValentine's Day and that whole
month.
I just get so much nausea justlooking around.
And I feel so mean I feel somean.
I'm so judgy.
(44:21):
I'm like, oh, here we go.
Speaker 1 (44:23):
Get over yourself.
Speaker 2 (44:25):
But you know, one of the gifts I think of being
single is that I have so muchmore time to spend with the Lord
in conversational prayer, andeven at work I find myself in
between patients, just talkingto the Lord and either praying a
quick prayer for a baby or forthe parents or for you know just
(44:47):
the Lord is becoming Jesus, isalmost like a tangible person in
a sense that I can communicatewith, and that relationship is
so profoundly real that thatloneliness really so often is
not there.
It's just that you're justfeeling the overwhelming sense
(45:10):
of joy that you can talk to theLord.
And even in those times whenI'm sad and feeling sorry for
myself or having a depressedweek or something, even in that
I want to talk to him about it,which is amazing.
Another song that brings me totears always is that goodness of
God.
And just looking back on mylife, I know that there's a lot
of suffering because as I'mtalking about it it comes up a
(45:33):
bit, but I can see him with methrough that all the time.
Speaker 1 (45:37):
Wow, it's just beautiful.
Yeah Well, you just used theword I was going to use in my
question, which is, and you'redescribing it now what has been
unexpectedly beautiful inbelonging to Jesus and what has
been, maybe, unexpectedlydifficult at times.
Speaker 2 (45:53):
I think the unexpected beauty is how much I
care about our community.
You know the church, theuniversal church, but also
specifically New City as well.
I feel a sense of not justbelonging but of responsibility.
I want to participate, I wantto help the body of the church
(46:15):
and and um take upresponsibility for the for, for
the service, as a sense ofgratitude for what the lord has
done in my life and and there isa sense also of like um.
One of the most beautiful thingsI think the lord has done in my
life has been giving me ameaning that surpasses even my,
(46:36):
my job, I mean.
I mean, I'm I'm a respiratorytherapist, so I work only with
babies, um, in a newborn ICU,and I've always had this sense
of my job matters.
I, I take care of the sickestof the sick, babies, and we're
helping them grow and developand hopefully become, you know,
thriving, thriving children, um.
(46:58):
But there is nothing moreimportant and more valuable and
more meaningful than to share mystory and pray that someone
will come to Jesus for it.
Wow, that.
That is the, the.
What gives me the most meaningin my life is talking to people
and sharing with what what hehas done in my life.
You're doing it now which issuch a gift to me.
Speaker 1 (47:19):
I'm receiving it right now as such a it's
meaningful to me.
How would you describe what'sbeen unexpectedly difficult?
Speaker 2 (47:32):
Unexpectedly difficult.
I feel like, in a sense, youknow my life before coming to
faith, I think, was very secular.
I had all my friends weresecular and now, coming to
Florida, all of my friendships,all of my relationships are
faith-based.
They're all friends of fellowbelievers and I do feel like
(47:55):
there is almost like thisdistance between my secular life
now and my and my Christianlife.
That, um, I feel sometimes likeI'm worried that I'm losing the
friends that I had um in mysecular life because either
because they, um, we don't have,we don't share that, that
(48:16):
lifestyle of living for Christ.
So I think that there is workfor me to learn how to reconcile
those relationships andmaintain them, because I do
think it's important to maintaincontact, obviously, with the
secular world I mean, we live init and the challenges of
sharing my story and notoffending people, of sharing my
(48:37):
story and not offending people.
You know, I live in a worldwhere the LGBTQ presence is
everywhere, at work, in everycommunity function, and when I
share my story I pray thatpeople won't hear it, as I'm now
righteous and they need toconvert and give their lives up.
I want them to just feel likethe love that the father has for
(49:02):
them, yeah, so I feel likethat's that's a challenge as
well, too.
How do I share my story and notcreate enmity, I think, with
with people who don't share that?
Speaker 1 (49:13):
that worldview.
Yeah, wow, there's something.
So I mean the story of therelationship between the gay
community and the church is thatit's God versus the gays right,
or God hates the gays, or not.
The church's witness has notbeen.
God loves the gay community andloves the gay community so much
that he's calling her to and afaith in Jesus, because there's
(49:36):
so much more on offer and and so, um, I'm, I'm, really I'm so
glad this has not been yourexperience at New City.
But some people that are, uh,that follow Jesus and obedience
with their sexuality, like youdo, often feel like they're in a
, like a, a, an in-between spacewhere they don't quite fit into
the church, because the churchis usually structured for
(49:59):
heterosexual married coupleswith their families and their
children and whatnot, and theydon't fit into the gay community
that they've now left, becausethe structure there is built
around expressing your sexualityin the ways that are prohibited
for followers of Jesus, right.
And so there's this like wheredo I belong?
And I hear you saying thechurch has not that's not been
(50:20):
your experience at New City,it's not been your experience
with the church but that therewould be a potential
ostracization or rejection inthe gay community if you were to
be more forthright about yourstory.
And how do I do that withoutalienating or coming across as
holier-than-thou type thing?
Speaker 2 (50:38):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, because I mean it's important to
share what God has done in mylife with people.
But, you know, I've actuallycome across this at work, where
I know somebody who is openlygay and married to someone, and
I wonder, oh, I hope that when Ishare what God is doing in my
(51:00):
life and where he's led me, thatthey don't feel like I am
condemning them.
I don't want them to feel likeI'm judging them.
Yet at the same time, I wantthem to know that there's a life
that's fully amazing in Christ,that he can satisfy that desire
that we all have for belongingand meaning and, um, he can be
(51:25):
everything for you, um, yeahthat's um, wow, and coming from
your lips has more credibilitythan mine, to be honest.
Speaker 1 (51:34):
um, in that community in particular, there's uh, even
Even to me, I hear you describeit and I think you're living
proof of that.
You're proof of concept, right.
Speaker 2 (51:44):
I wish somebody had told me.
There was a time I remember,when I was 19 or 20, maybe even
20, I had kind of flunked out ofcollege.
I went to a seventh-dayAdventist college for a year and
I didn't do well, I did verypoorly academically and I was
smoking pot all the time.
And I remember just being somiserable and I had tried to go
(52:05):
to school at a differentuniversity in Oregon and I kind
of had like an emotionalbreakdown of just feeling the
conflict, the conflict of ofbeing in the closet still at
that time as well, but also justlike feeling like something is
wrong in my life.
And I remember driving to aSeventh-day Adventist church, a
(52:26):
random church in a town that Iwasn't from and just wanted to
talk to a pastor, and I justfelt so lost and the church was
closed, nobody was there and youknow it was a fleeting moment.
I went back home and calmeddown and haven't thought about
that again for almost like over10 years now.
But I, as I were talking now,I'm just thinking I wish that
(52:50):
somebody had been there.
Or you know that I met a PCApastor somewhere and someone
would have told me what it'slike to be in love with Jesus,
because I think that's somethingthat I never understood.
You hear that we love Jesus, welove Jesus, but it never
clicked to me.
What does it mean to be in lovewith Jesus, to have him be the
(53:12):
first thought in your head whenyou wake up, almost like you're
in a relationship with somebody,like a loving relationship, a
spouse.
He is everything to you and I'mlike if people knew that side
of Christianity, that Jesuswants to be your everything and
he can satisfy you in a way thatyou will never meet with any
(53:34):
other person, I think that wouldbe life-changing.
People would just be floored,especially, you know, the gay
community, I think too.
I think if they, if they couldonly know how satisfying a
relationship with Jesus can be,be life-changing.
Speaker 1 (53:49):
That's such a good word.
I could talk to you for anotherhour, but I want to end there.
And and the reason why isbecause there was a, there was a
call in that, Uh, and I don'tis because there was a, there
was a call in that, Uh, and Idon't know that you meant it
that way, but that's the way Ireceived it, which is just like
few of us recognize that.
How how many people thatprobably are like you were in
(54:10):
that moment.
Just like if, if, somebody wouldhave just told me you know, if
anybody would have just what we,you know, if anybody would have
just what we, you know what theBible calls, just bear witness
to the fact that Jesus is worthit, that he's worth it, he's.
You know, jesus is overeverything, he's my Lord, he's
my lover, he's superior, supreme, all those things.
And that our listeners, youknow, many of whom will be New
(54:34):
City congregants, are aroundthose people today.
I almost guarantee that, uh,that there's somebody that
they'll interact with today thatif, if, if we would bear
witness to the goodness of Jesus, they would be, they would be
like oh, there actually is hope,there actually is something on
offer.
Well, thank you, thank you foryour friendship, thank you for
this conversation, thank you foryour, your life in Christ.
(54:57):
Your life in Christ and theways in which you are.
You are evidence of the graceof God, and I know that you
can't take credit for that, butI can, but I can say thank you
for receiving and responding tothe work of God in your life in
the ways that you have, becauseit's, it's such an encouragement
to me.
Praise God.
Praise God, you too.
(55:24):
You, it's gone.
It's gone, you too.
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