March 4, 2025 • 31 mins
In this episode, Nate Claiborne and Benjamin Kandt discuss the spiritual practice of fasting, particularly in the context of Lent. They explore the historical and biblical foundations of fasting, explaining how it has traditionally been used as a means of self-denial, preparation, and spiritual discipline. They highlight the connection between fasting and feasting, emphasizing that both are essential parts of Christian life—fasting representing a time of longing and dependence on God, while feasting celebrates the joy and fulfillment found in Him. The conversation also touches on how the Christian calendar has shaped seasons of fasting, particularly leading up to Easter, and how fasting helps Christians resist being controlled by their physical cravings or desires.
They also discuss the importance of motivation in fasting, warning against legalism while encouraging listeners to engage in the practice as a way to grow in spiritual freedom. They offer practical suggestions for fasting during Lent, including food-based fasts, social media detoxes, or other forms of self-denial that create space for increased dependence on God. Ultimately, they encourage listeners to approach fasting not just as an act of giving something up but as an opportunity to take hold of more of God and deepen their faith.
You can listen to the sermon by Hardy Reynolds here, and last year's sermon from Ben here.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
Welcome to another episode of the All that Podcast.
I'm your host, nate Claiborne,here once again with Benjamin
Mann.
You got a streak going.
Yeah, I do.
Well, actually people don'tknow that because I mixed the
episode, but it doesn't come outfor two weeks.
Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Well, in this one you get the special opportunity to
hear me with a voice about to begone.
Oh no, it's interesting.
You could probably.
It's very tried and true thatif I don't get a good sleep,
like six-plus hours, for likethree or four days in a row, I
lose my voice.
It always happens.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
Interesting.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
And my newborn has some sleeping problems right now
.
Okay, same Par for the course,yeah yeah, so that's where I
find myself, but I'm good if youcan bear with listening to my
voice as it's coming in and out.
I'm drinking some throat coatas we talk right now.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
Okay, throat coat works magic, and so I'll try to
carry it.
I don't know how well I can dothat but we'll see what we can
do so.
We're here not to talk aboutthroat coat or about
sleeplessness, although we canboth relate to that over the
past few days.
We're here to talk aboutfasting.
So last month we did ahighlight on the scripture
(01:25):
practice in the Common Rhythmand this month we're doing we're
just gonna do a kind of anoverview highlight of the
fasting practice, in partbecause that's the theme for
this month of March.
As people are listening to this, you may have noticed on the
worship bulletin last Sunday thelittle tag at the bottom.
The theme changed to fastingbecause we're in a new month and
(01:45):
it's got some questions onthere.
Those were drawn from the Allof Life Guide and, as you're
hearing this, it's now Tuesday,march 4th and tomorrow,
wednesday March 5th, is AshWednesday, which starts the
season of Lent in the Christiancalendar.
That's right.
Ben, why don't you tell us alittle bit more about Lent, for
people that don't know?
Speaker 2 (02:05):
Yeah, so some people might come from traditions where
they don't practice theChristian calendar and even then
you probably practice somethingin it, because almost all of us
know Christmas and Easter,which are part of the church
calendar.
The idea that there was a daywhen the church calendar ruled
like the school or academiccalendar does now is really
(02:26):
interesting to me.
It is Like I can't even fathomthat, but there was a day when
the church calendar actually wasthe thing that dictated your
sense of the seasons that youwere in.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
And I'm sure there's some students that would like to
get back to that since it'smostly feast days and other
sorts of holidays and ordinarytime.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
Yeah yeah, yeah.
And so we historically we beingthe Christian church have
marked the 40 days leading up toEaster Sunday as a season of
self-reflection, of preparationof your heart.
Often it has a kind of anemphasis on self-examination and
(03:04):
a preparing of your heart for asense of the need for the cross
on Good Friday, and so thisusually has themes of asking
questions about stewarding yourlife and what that's looked like
, asking self-examination,questions about failure in your
life, about where you findyourself, are you living up to
(03:25):
God's call on your life, thosekinds of things.
And so you've got this 40 dayseason of self-examination that
prepares you for the cross,which is all kind of culminating
in Easter Sunday.
And so you might think that thechurch calendar is confusing, or
why do people do this?
It's not.
It's not.
Is it biblical this and theother?
I would say the Bible hasholidays in it, seven of them,
(03:48):
in particular in the in theHebrew Bible.
In other words, god cared abouthow the Jewish people kept time
, and they kept time based onhis climactic events in history,
and so it's not unusual, or not?
It's not surprising, that theChristian church would pick up
this pattern of marking holidays, holy days, by having seasons
(04:11):
of preparation for significantevents in the life of a
Christian, like the birth ofJesus in Christmas, which is
prepared for by Advent, or thedeath and resurrection of Jesus
in Good Friday and Easter Sunday, that's prepared for in this
season of Lent.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
Yeah Well, and it would probably surprise people.
I mean Lent maybe is a littleout there for some people if
they didn't grow up with that aspart of the Christian calendar.
But in an earlier podcast thisseason we were talking about
Eastern Orthodoxy and they dofasting, not only for Lent but
for Advent.
They're both seasons of fastingleading up to the feasting that
they.
(04:48):
So they treat Christmas as afeast day, they treat Easter as
a feast day, and so there's aperiod of fasting.
So really they're tapping intosomething and I said we weren't
gonna link to this, but I thinkwe'll link people to it.
Hardy Preach Day Hardy Reynolds, our RUF minister, who's at New
City.
He preached a sermon a fewyears ago where he contrasted
fasting and feasting.
(05:09):
And one of them is kind of thefeasting bit is the already of
the kingdom is at hand and thefasting is the not yet.
And there's this dynamic ofthey really do go hand in hand
and so it's Christian life isout of balance if it's feasting
all the time.
It's also out of balance ifit's fasting all the time.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
That's well said, and even on the common rhythm,
you'll see, in the love neighborside of the common rhythm and
the weekly, that's where fastingand feasting are One is a
practice of embrace and one ofus is a practice of resist.
For that reason they really arecomplementary and go together
in that regard.
Yeah, so fasting, nate, tell usa little bit about like okay,
(05:47):
so maybe somebody's like allright, yeah, lent, 40 days up
until Easter, why fasting?
Though?
Like what's the role thatfasting plays?
Or why would we fast duringthat season?
Speaker 1 (05:58):
Yeah, so it's a season of self-denial and
preparation.
I don't have a history of Lentoff the top of my head, but I
can think of which actuallysurprises me.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
It does surprise you.
You usually have a lot of thesethings off the top of your head
.
Speaker 1 (06:14):
Yeah, it is one of those things.
I'm resisting the urge toGoogle it right now, just so I
can pretend it was off the topof my head, but I would think of
it as it's a solemn season insome sense because you're really
trying to enter into the weightof what it was leading up to
Holy Week, and so you'restarting.
you know, 40 days out.
I will say this, for if youreally do want to practice Lent,
(06:35):
I think you need to do the fullversion of it, which is to say,
today is Mardi Gras, which isFrench for Fat Tuesday.
That's right so if you aregetting ready to fast, you would
feast today.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
We would get punch geese, which I think is a donut
of some sort, up in Michigan.
That was like the thing.
Okay, yeah, maybe a Polishdonut, I don't even know
Something like that.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
Yeah, it's a big deal .
I mean not just at Universal,where they go to town on it, or
in New Orleans, but if you didthe math though, it's actually
more than 40 days between AshWednesday to Easter I think it's
46 days, and part of the rhythmof it is you actually have
(07:23):
micro feasts possible on theSundays leading up to Easter
Foretastes Foretastes, in somesense of like you're fasting, so
you get the foretaste on Sunday, but not the full feast that
you're experiencing on Easter.
So it's kind of it's acclimatingyour body to the season that
you're in in Christian time, andso we could go in way more
detail on this.
But it's one way in whichyou're letting the flesh not
(07:44):
dominate the way you live yourChristian life by doing
something that deprives theflesh of what it wants, and I'm
using flesh, really, in both aphysical and a spiritual sense
there.
In physical sense, in that bynot eating something that you
would otherwise like to enjoyeating, you're depriving
yourself, so you're feeling thathunger get stirred up.
(08:05):
But it's also it's easy to liveby your desires, which is a
more spiritual idea of I justeat what I want, I do what I
want, I go where I want, and sothat's not the way we want to
pursue the Christian life wherewe're led by the desires of the
flesh, meaning not in the sexualsense, but just in a total
sense of.
I just kind of do whatever Ifeel like, and this is a season
(08:27):
where you have an opportunity tofight against that natural
tendency that you have byfasting, and doing it in
conjunction with one of the most, if not the most significant,
christian holiday.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
Yeah, that's so helpful.
In fact, I wish I would haveknown this this time last year,
because last Lent I gave upsugar.
Now Alana would keep me honest.
What I gave up was processedsugars, because I would still
eat like dates and things likethat, a little fruit here and
there.
The sugar that grows from theearth I would have.
So I gave up processed sugarsfor Lent, which was hard for me,
(09:03):
and if I do it again this year,it's going to be hard for me
again.
So this happened.
Actually, lent began onWednesday, as it does, and that
first Sunday somebody in ourcongregation said hey, I'm
trying out baking sourdoughcinnamon buns.
Oh, they would, wouldn't they?
And basically it was like can Imake a batch of them for you
(09:27):
and will you be a taste tester?
Speaker 1 (09:29):
So I thought you are such a kind you said get behind
me.
That's right, I'm like.
You are such a kind.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
You said, get behind me.
That's right.
I'm like you are such a kindperson, but you don't understand
what this means to me right now.
Yeah, but had I known thatSundays were little micro
foretastes, micro feasts?
Speaker 1 (09:43):
there you go.
I totally would have broken myfast right just and served this
lovely woman and helped her withher baking process yeah, and if
nothing else, that rhythm of itto me is the argument for why
it should be a food-basedreality.
So it's like you could give upcoffee, but it means every
Sunday morning you can enjoy acup of coffee but, you don't go
(10:06):
back to your regular rhythm ofcoffee every day.
That's good.
I know people have done socialmedia or things like that.
In some sense it works.
Maybe it's good for so if it'sI know people have done like
social media or things like thatit's like it really in some
sense it works.
Like maybe it's good for you todetox social media for 46 full
days.
Yeah, but the rhythm of itwould be well.
If you detox social media, thatmeans on Sunday you can check
all your accounts, but you alsodon't want to think of it as
(10:27):
like it's fat Sunday and so it'sjust your social media all
Sunday to make up for everything.
Right, so it's so.
That's why I say micro feast isprobably a better way of
thinking of it.
It's not fat Tuesday all overagain, but it's able if you, you
know if you gave up coffee orif you gave up dairy or if you
gave up something that yougenuinely enjoy.
You can dip back into it onSunday, but then you're back
(10:51):
into feast mode rather thanbeast mode, I guess.
Speaker 2 (10:54):
Beast mode.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
That's amazing Beast mode starting Monday morning.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
Okay.
So another piece to that why itmight make sense to give up
food in particular, which isthat's what the Bible means when
it says fasting.
It means food, but I don'tthink it's wrong to expand the
definition to include thingslike social media or-.
You could say things youconsume or fasting people you
don't like.
Like that's a legitimatepractice right.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
Like introverts are like oh, there we go.
How can I fast people Sorry,it's lit, it's lit, I can't be
there.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
But you said something.
Actually, this is so funny,nate.
I'm a fastidious note taker, sopeople that know me know this.
You, I'm a fastidious notetaker, so people that know me
know this.
You said something during astaff meeting in October 25th
2021.
What a creeper.
I know this is amazing.
You said the body is thefoundational arena of
discipleship.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
That's a good word right there.
Did you remember saying that?
I don't remember saying that.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
What date was it?
October 25th 2021.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
2021.
Okay, yeah, yeah, okay, I cankind of remember what I was it
October 25th, 2021.
2021,.
Okay, yeah, yeah, okay.
I can kind of remember what Iwas reading around then and why
I might have said that.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
I don't remember saying that, though, but let's
roll with it because it's agreat statement.
The body is the foundationalarena of discipleship.
So what I love about that is itgrounds us in reality as it's
lived by human beings, which arethe only disciples there are
human beings right.
Because reality as it's livedby human beings, which are the
(12:19):
only disciples there, are humanbeings right.
Because we might think youmight be apt to go well, these
are spiritual disciplines andthat's just like holier than
thou kind of like airy-fairy,just abstraction type thing.
But they're habits and a habitis an embodied thing.
It has something to do withyour memory, it has something to
do with your.
You know the ways your bodydoes something right, and so you
can habituate yourself into aspiritual discipline and that's
not a problem, that's actuallygreat.
So read James Clear's book onatomic habits and it'll help you
(12:41):
with your spiritual disciplines.
Yeah, why?
Because the body is thefoundational arena of
discipleship.
And so, as we are practicingLent, it's actually an embodied.
It's an embodied practice tosay practicing Lent.
It's actually an embodied.
It's an embodied practice tosay I'm going to, I'm going to
say no to certain justifiablebodily appetites like food or,
(13:01):
in my case, with sugar, or, likeyou said coffee, something like
that.
It's totally legitimate andit's actually a way to prepare
yourself almost from the bottomup, not just intellectually.
You could read there's a lot ofreally great Lent devotionals
out there, but this is almostlike a body up reality where
you're going.
I'm going to prepare myself inan embodied way to celebrate, to
(13:24):
give a full body yes to Jesus'sresurrection, by giving myself
a 40 day runway, from AshWednesday to Easter Sunday.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
Yeah, when.
I hope what people are hearingus say is this is we've, in all
of the conversation we've had sofar, we've not pulled out
scripture and said well, youknow here's where you're
commanded to practice Lent.
Scripture does talk aboutfasting as a discipline, but it
doesn't talk about Lent inparticular.
So there's a certain sense inwhich we're drawing on a
(13:52):
tradition, that it has roots toit, and some people I know may
fault it for some of its sources.
So it's in the realm of.
This would be healthy for yourspiritual life, but it's not
mandatory for it.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
That's good.
That's well said.
I think that's important.
And one of the ways I thinkabout that is that legalism,
legalists and lovers can lookpretty similar externally.
Now, if you start talking tothem, you'd figure out which
one's which pretty quickly,because they're motivational.
In other words, you knowthere's plenty of people who
have sold everything, given itall to the poor and done
(14:29):
something radically devoted toJesus, and they've done that in
order to get something from God.
And some people have done thatbecause they've received
everything already from God andthey're doing it as a response
of love.
Right, both, one's a legalist,one's a lover.
I get this from 1 Corinthians13,.
Right, paul says that you cangive all that you have, sell it
to the, give it to the poor, butif you have not love, it's
(14:51):
you've gained nothing.
And give it to the poor.
But if you have not love,you've gained nothing.
You can even deliver your bodyover to be burned and if you
have not love, you are nothing.
So you can go to the greatestextremes and if the motive is
I'm going to get from God, I'mgoing to twist God's arm and I'm
going to put him in my debt,that's legalism and it's not
okay, it's actually you're worseoff having done that.
But you could do some dramaticthings that are, I mean, paul
(15:15):
himself was executed for thefaith, right, and we would
believe that he did that out oflove, that there was a motive of
I've been given everything andyou know, I count all things as
loss for the surpassing worth ofknowing Christ Jesus, my Lord.
And so lovers can do dramaticthings like 40 days of not
eating particular types of foodin order to prepare their bodies
and their souls for EasterSunday, but I do think the
(15:39):
motive matters on something likethis.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
Yeah, yeah, I'm struck by it.
It's stuck with me.
I didn't take notes the way youmight take notes, but I
remember in what was it back in1943.
No this was last fall when wehad Matt and Dana Candler come
out and do some training with usand they were talking about
fasting, and I remember Danasaying something along the lines
of you basically shouldn't fastuntil you feel like you can't
(16:04):
not fast because your motive canbe so distorted by I'm using
this for manipulative reasons.
Or, you know, in a culture thatis and I'm susceptible to this
as well in a culture that'sobsessed with diet and exercise,
fasting is a great way toaccelerate your calorie deficit.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
Yeah, that's right, you're sort of like well, I need
to be in a deficit anyway.
Speaker 1 (16:25):
so let's just do this .
So then you're doing the thing,so externally it looks like
you're doing what other peopleare doing, but you're doing it
for self-serving reasons.
So I think that's probably, too, why you want to think of the
conjunction of fasting andprayer, and so it's not purely
I'm just self-denying.
I'm self-denying.
(16:46):
And even the way we state it inthe common rhythm to increase
hunger for God, that's right.
Right, it's not just a I'm justgoing to be hungry and cranky.
Yes, um, yes.
If you're actually fasting.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
Yes, somebody said there's no grace in starving
yourself, there's only grace inseeking God.
And so if you go without andyou feel that ache and that
directs you towards God, that'sthe grace of fasting.
Um, another way I think aboutit too is, um, that fasting is
it's voluntary weakness.
You know, it's like there'slots of promises in scripture
about weakness and God's powermade perfect there.
(17:20):
And so if I voluntarily makemyself weak but I do it before
the Lord in a way to kind ofopen myself up to more of who
God is for me, then that's wherethe grace of it is.
I think about another piece offasting is that fasting really
is about freedom.
This is coming back to yourpoint about the flesh.
(17:40):
I'll quote some Bible here sothat people don't get nervous 2
Peter, 2, 19,.
Peter says this whateverovercomes a person, to that he
is enslaved.
That's a powerful verse.
It's actually a proof text forme for addiction.
Whatever overcomes a person, tothat he is enslaved.
And so many of us are overcome.
(18:00):
I can tell you truly there is atendency for me to be overcome
by processed sugars if I'm notcareful.
It's just like grab a handfulof peanut M&Ms walking out
because I'm in a low mood stateor something like that you get
that dopamine hit.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
That's right and I walking out because I'm in a low
mood state or something likethat.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
And then you get that dopamine hit.
That's right and I know better,because I'm gonna get that
sugar crash after the dopaminehit, right.
But there's just somethingabout fasting's about freedom.
It's like don't be overcome byanything anymore, like you can
actually be free from thesethings.
But it's going to cost yousomething.
It's going to feel like death,but there's resurrection on the
(18:41):
other side, right Another one.
This may be a little bitpersonal but I can tell you I've
had a lot of conversations withyoung men who will ask me
questions about how to live in ameasure of freedom from sexual
sin and sexual temptation, lust,pornography, those kind of
things.
And since that's a part of myown story, I can often kind of
offer counsel from my own story.
And one of the things that I'vesaid and I always preface it
with my legalism and loverspeech because this is really
(19:04):
important to say I had heardfrom John Mark Comer I thought
this was really helpful thattraditionally the church
prescribed fasting for what thescriptures call kind of lusts of
the flesh or these kind ofbodily appetite issues that you
might have, like gluttony, likelust, right.
Those are very embodied thingswhich are different actually
(19:25):
than pride or vainglory, whichare often, you know, people
would call those kind of likealmost spiritual sins.
Yeah, because the devil haspride and vainglory, and so
basically, if it's a lust of theflesh, a prescription, is
actually a form of what Paulcalled beating his body into
(19:46):
submission.
We don't like that language,unless you're into working out.
Then you're like, okay, yeah,paul did it, so it's cool.
And so this is what I say.
I say, hey, I go through seasonswhere if I feel as if lust or
covetousness or temptation,sexual temptation, those things
are like increasing and I catchit kind of on an incline.
I will go through a seasonmight be a week, might be a
(20:13):
month and I usually tell someclose friends that if I lust I
will fast.
So it doesn't matter if I mightfast three days that week, it
doesn't matter.
Like the commitment is, if Ifind myself lusting tomorrow,
I'm fasting and it's a way tostarve, that this bodily
appetite that's connected right,this in a way that says I don't
want this, I don't want this, Iwant to put to death the deeds
(20:33):
of the body that I might live.
Romans 8, 16, I think, or 13.
And again, you can hear thatand you can think, oh, that's
legalistic.
I actually think it's because Ilove my wife, it's because I
love Jesus, it's because I knowthe freedom and the joy that
comes from not being temptedsexually, and I know that
fasting is about freedom and sowhatever overcomes a person to
(20:55):
that he is enslaved.
Fasting is actually a God-givenspiritual discipline that
enables you to kind of breakfree from some of those things.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
Yeah, that's really helpful.
I think too, even as you'resaying that it might, it might
be worth parsing legalism just alittle bit.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
I don't want to spend too much time on it, yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
I think there is a sense in which there's really
two senses of that.
There's at least two senses ofthat word.
And, in some sense, by youhaving a rule or a law of if
this happens.
Therefore, I do that that islegalistic in the basic sense of
there's a rule you're imposinga law outside of scripture that
you're imposing on yourself,right, but the legalism, that's
(21:38):
the problem and it's why it'skind of you can't treat them as
the both thing is when you'reusing the law as a means to gain
favor with God.
So you're still doing the samething.
You're following a law, butwhat you think you're doing by
following the law is different.
Speaker 2 (21:53):
That's well said, because when I counsel young men
and I tell them that I tellthem as this is descriptive, not
prescriptive, this is me justtelling you what's been helpful
for me I also, in that samecontext, tell them that I have
people in my life that, nomatter what, they always know
where I'm at with temptation ofany kind it could be
(22:13):
covetousness over somebody'slifestyle, or you know because I
I want to be a person who liveswith no secrets.
Now, you could find proof textsabout like walking in the light
and, you know, having nodarkness within you, 1 John 1.
But like, that's another law,it's another rule of life that I
follow, which is I don't livewith secrets.
I tell there's people that knowall my secrets, that kind of
(22:35):
thing.
And in a similar way, it's forthe same reason I don't want to
live without transparency.
I want to live known, fullyknown, with no hiding, that kind
of a thing.
And so, to that point, though,if I were to tell those men, you
have to do this, now that's aproblem, right?
I can tell those men, hey, youhave to honor your father and
(22:55):
mother.
I can tell them, hey, youcannot steal.
And because I'm taking Bibleand I'm prescribing Bible, but
if I prescribe my own spiritualpractices and things like that,
that's when you can becomeYou're binding conscience,
binding conscience.
Speaker 1 (23:09):
It's beyond scripture Especially and it has more
weight from you as a pastorversus I could do the same thing
and it would still be bindingconscience, but it wouldn't
weigh potentially on somebody'sconscience as much as like.
Well, my pastor said I have todo X, y or Z.
Speaker 2 (23:24):
Yep, that's it.
Yeah.
So in this context it'sprobably good to come back to
the topic of Lent and fasting.
I do believe now people coulddebate with me on this.
I do believe that there is aprescription.
The Bible calls disciples ofJesus to fast.
I get that from Matthew 6,where Jesus assumes his
disciples would fast.
He says when you fast, dot, dot, dot, which implies he assumes
(23:45):
it.
Now it's not in the imperative.
So you could say, well, hedidn't command it there and I
would say, okay, that's fine.
He did something more dramatic,which is he just assumed that
that would be normative for you,which almost might be worse
than an imperative in one sense.
So I believe I can look at aChristian and say you should
fast, you should have a practiceof fasting.
Now, if I go, it should be for40 days during.
(24:07):
Now the church hasn't had aproblem doing that in the past.
The early church, if you readthe Didache, they fasted on
Wednesdays and Fridays they didthe Lord's Prayer three times a
day the Eastern.
Orthodox still do.
There you go.
They prayed the Lord's Prayerthree times a day Now.
They prescribed those thingsfor disciples because they
believe that's what you needed.
(24:27):
I won't go that far asscripture, which says you should
fast.
That's something you should do.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
Yeah, so as we kind of land the plane here, that's a
good word to end on is that youshould fast.
And I think what we say is theinvitation here, as we go into
the season of Lent, is to try tofigure out if you don't already
have something.
And, just as a side note, ifyou're a member of New City and
you took a survey over thesummer, we know that most of you
don't have something.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
And that's no shade, because I'm one of those people
who said the same thing is that,during this season, that we're
inviting you to figure somethingout.
That's right, and I would say,I'd say, really, you have three
options.
I'll give three options.
One would be to just go in,lean into Wednesdays along with
(25:15):
the elder prayer guide and jointhe elders in fasting on
Wednesday.
So in this case, you'reskipping meals.
Yeah, which for?
Speaker 2 (25:19):
us.
All that is is breakfast andlunch.
So it's like I'll eat Tuesdaynight and then I won't, and then
I'll eat Wednesday night.
So I'll eat dinner on Tuesday,dinner on Wednesday.
That's a 24-hour fast, but itisn't so bad, because most of
your fasts are a lot of that.
You're sleeping those eighthours.
You're just missing breakfastand lunch.
Speaker 1 (25:37):
If you don't know where to start, we'd start there
.
And you've got the prayer guide.
It's in the app, but you'realso getting it as an email
every week, so you could startwith that.
If you wanted to do Lent, soyou would start with that.
If you wanted to do lent, soyou would start tomorrow.
It's ash wednesday, um, and Iwhat I've been thinking about is
I'm trying to decide kind ofwhat I'm going to do is I've
(25:58):
been thinking about notnecessarily what can I give up,
just in the in the broad senseof like, oh, I could give up.
I've been thinking about what doI, what do I find myself
craving, and so like you weresaying processed sugars, sugars,
it's like well, I enjoy tacos,but I'm not like oh my gosh, I
got to get a taco right orburgers, or like some of these
(26:18):
things that maybe I should eatless of anyways.
But I can think of.
Like, well, is there somethingalong those lines where it's
like a component of like dairyproducts, like ice cream, or it
would include things like that.
So I've been thinking alongthose lines because I'm trying
to think in terms of I don'twant a craving to control me, so
this is a season where I cantake control of the cravings and
(26:39):
do it for this purpose.
Yeah, I think you've got thosetwo options, and then there's
just the traditional of usingFriday as a fast day, I think
that's that has a long historyas well.
But I figure, if you're goingto do a day, you may as well
join the crew on Wednesday.
Speaker 2 (26:55):
Yeah, can you think of?
Speaker 1 (26:57):
other, other approaches people have, I mean
we're recommending those twothings.
Speaker 2 (27:08):
There's other things you could do.
Yeah, I know we went prettyhard in the paint on making this
food oriented, but let me justriddle off some things that you
could fast.
You could fast food generally,uh, which is what we do on
Wednesdays.
You could fast for fast sugar,which is what I did for 40 days.
Just no processed sugars, right, but again, I still had
fructose and you know the stuffthat comes in fruit naturally,
right, um, you could fast meat.
You could fast alcohol.
You could fast caffeine.
(27:28):
Then you could get outside ofthe kind of embodied sense and
you could fast social media orTV or internet of some sort,
like maybe, uh, you only use itin a certain place, you know, in
time, whatever you could fast,um, I joked earlier.
But you could fast people,which would be a practice of
solitude, right, like, maybe youactually, uh, bonhoeffer says
(27:49):
the best people for the worstpeople for community are people
who can't have solitude.
Uh, and the worst people forsolitude are those who can't
have, who can't live withoutcommunity, and so, um, and then
another one would be shopping,like maybe you just don't spend
money for the for the 40 days,uh, and you fast, you know,
amazon or something like that.
So there are ways you could gooutside the norm of what fasting
(28:10):
is Um, but then even within thenorm, there's a lot of
different things you could.
You could give up.
Speaker 1 (28:14):
Yeah, and the caveat there would be don't use it as
an excuse to do something you'dprefer to do anyways, like
fasting people.
Like fasting people, which issort of like you can't be like
man.
I'm just so hard keeping upwith email.
I'm going to give up email fora minute.
Yeah, actually that's mine.
I've decided my land practiceyou need.
So, yeah, maybe we say this Ifyou're going to pick something
(28:35):
that's non-food, I meanfood-based, I mean I could say
I'm fasting broccoli, but that'snot really actually doing
anything right.
It needs to introduce some levelof friction for you.
So if it's a food item, if it'sa, I'm going to give up Netflix
for 40 days because I usuallywatch it for two hours every
night or something like that.
It can't be something that youdon't participate in that much.
(28:58):
It needs to be something that'ssustainable, doable, but also
is going to cause a little bitof a pinch, a little bit of
friction.
Yeah, that's sustainable,doable, but also is going to
cause a little bit of a pinch, alittle bit of friction.
Speaker 2 (29:04):
Yeah, that's well said.
Three closing thoughts.
First, don't butt off more thanyou can chew.
Speaker 1 (29:10):
Look at that that works on so many levels.
Wait for it.
Speaker 2 (29:14):
I just had to say that.
But it's a good fastingrecommendation.
But I mean that you know like,don't go too crazy with this.
If you've never fasted before,don't Take a baby step.
That's good.
Second, and related to that isif you're the kind of person who
wants to go, you know I'm goingto go big, I'm going to go all
in.
Just, we've warned againstlegalism as a motivation.
(29:34):
But 1 Corinthians 8.8 says thissuper direct food will not
commend us to God.
We are no worse off if we donot eat and no better off if we
do.
I just love thestraightforwardness of that.
So just remember, like yourdiet, it doesn't make God love
you anymore or any less.
You know your practices are notgoing to change God's love for
(29:55):
you, but God's love for youmight actually change your
practices.
Hopefully it does.
And the last thing I'd say isthat it's easy to think of
fasting as really to focus onwhat I'm letting go of, because
that's core to it.
But I'd actually rather youalso consider what is it that
you're taking hold of that?
There is a hungering for Godwith others.
That's core to fasting, whichis I'm actually taking hold of
(30:19):
more of God by saying no tosomething.
I'm saying yes to him.
And so the emphasis of fastingpractically is what am I giving
up?
But the emphasis of fasting,kind of the priority of it, is
what am I laying hold of?
I'm asking for more of you, god, than I've experienced thus far
, and so you know, fasting mightfeel like sackcloth and ashes,
(30:42):
but it might actually end insomething that feels like Easter
, which is the hope that's setout before us it is.
Speaker 1 (30:47):
Those are some good words to end on Ben.
I enjoyed our conversationtalking about fasting.
Listeners can keep an ear out,so to speak, for another deep
dive on a congregant'sexperience of fasting and that's
going to drop in a couple weeks.
That's great Looking forward tothat one too.
Speaker 2 (31:12):
So until then,
Welcome to another episode of the All that Podcast.
I'm your host, nate Claiborne,here once again with Benjamin
Mann.
You got a streak going.
Yeah, I do.
Well, actually people don'tknow that because I mixed the
episode, but it doesn't come outfor two weeks.
Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Well, in this one you get the special opportunity to
hear me with a voice about to begone.
Oh no, it's interesting.
You could probably.
It's very tried and true thatif I don't get a good sleep,
like six-plus hours, for likethree or four days in a row, I
lose my voice.
It always happens.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
Interesting.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
And my newborn has some sleeping problems right now
.
Okay, same Par for the course,yeah yeah, so that's where I
find myself, but I'm good if youcan bear with listening to my
voice as it's coming in and out.
I'm drinking some throat coatas we talk right now.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
Okay, throat coat works magic, and so I'll try to
carry it.
I don't know how well I can dothat but we'll see what we can
do so.
We're here not to talk aboutthroat coat or about
sleeplessness, although we canboth relate to that over the
past few days.
We're here to talk aboutfasting.
So last month we did ahighlight on the scripture
(01:25):
practice in the Common Rhythmand this month we're doing we're
just gonna do a kind of anoverview highlight of the
fasting practice, in partbecause that's the theme for
this month of March.
As people are listening to this, you may have noticed on the
worship bulletin last Sunday thelittle tag at the bottom.
The theme changed to fastingbecause we're in a new month and
(01:45):
it's got some questions onthere.
Those were drawn from the Allof Life Guide and, as you're
hearing this, it's now Tuesday,march 4th and tomorrow,
wednesday March 5th, is AshWednesday, which starts the
season of Lent in the Christiancalendar.
That's right.
Ben, why don't you tell us alittle bit more about Lent, for
people that don't know?
Speaker 2 (02:05):
Yeah, so some people might come from traditions where
they don't practice theChristian calendar and even then
you probably practice somethingin it, because almost all of us
know Christmas and Easter,which are part of the church
calendar.
The idea that there was a daywhen the church calendar ruled
like the school or academiccalendar does now is really
(02:26):
interesting to me.
It is Like I can't even fathomthat, but there was a day when
the church calendar actually wasthe thing that dictated your
sense of the seasons that youwere in.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
And I'm sure there's some students that would like to
get back to that since it'smostly feast days and other
sorts of holidays and ordinarytime.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
Yeah yeah, yeah.
And so we historically we beingthe Christian church have
marked the 40 days leading up toEaster Sunday as a season of
self-reflection, of preparationof your heart.
Often it has a kind of anemphasis on self-examination and
(03:04):
a preparing of your heart for asense of the need for the cross
on Good Friday, and so thisusually has themes of asking
questions about stewarding yourlife and what that's looked like
, asking self-examination,questions about failure in your
life, about where you findyourself, are you living up to
(03:25):
God's call on your life, thosekinds of things.
And so you've got this 40 dayseason of self-examination that
prepares you for the cross,which is all kind of culminating
in Easter Sunday.
And so you might think that thechurch calendar is confusing, or
why do people do this?
It's not.
It's not.
Is it biblical this and theother?
I would say the Bible hasholidays in it, seven of them,
(03:48):
in particular in the in theHebrew Bible.
In other words, god cared abouthow the Jewish people kept time
, and they kept time based onhis climactic events in history,
and so it's not unusual, or not?
It's not surprising, that theChristian church would pick up
this pattern of marking holidays, holy days, by having seasons
(04:11):
of preparation for significantevents in the life of a
Christian, like the birth ofJesus in Christmas, which is
prepared for by Advent, or thedeath and resurrection of Jesus
in Good Friday and Easter Sunday, that's prepared for in this
season of Lent.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
Yeah Well, and it would probably surprise people.
I mean Lent maybe is a littleout there for some people if
they didn't grow up with that aspart of the Christian calendar.
But in an earlier podcast thisseason we were talking about
Eastern Orthodoxy and they dofasting, not only for Lent but
for Advent.
They're both seasons of fastingleading up to the feasting that
they.
(04:48):
So they treat Christmas as afeast day, they treat Easter as
a feast day, and so there's aperiod of fasting.
So really they're tapping intosomething and I said we weren't
gonna link to this, but I thinkwe'll link people to it.
Hardy Preach Day Hardy Reynolds, our RUF minister, who's at New
City.
He preached a sermon a fewyears ago where he contrasted
fasting and feasting.
(05:09):
And one of them is kind of thefeasting bit is the already of
the kingdom is at hand and thefasting is the not yet.
And there's this dynamic ofthey really do go hand in hand
and so it's Christian life isout of balance if it's feasting
all the time.
It's also out of balance ifit's fasting all the time.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
That's well said, and even on the common rhythm,
you'll see, in the love neighborside of the common rhythm and
the weekly, that's where fastingand feasting are One is a
practice of embrace and one ofus is a practice of resist.
For that reason they really arecomplementary and go together
in that regard.
Yeah, so fasting, nate, tell usa little bit about like okay,
(05:47):
so maybe somebody's like allright, yeah, lent, 40 days up
until Easter, why fasting?
Though?
Like what's the role thatfasting plays?
Or why would we fast duringthat season?
Speaker 1 (05:58):
Yeah, so it's a season of self-denial and
preparation.
I don't have a history of Lentoff the top of my head, but I
can think of which actuallysurprises me.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
It does surprise you.
You usually have a lot of thesethings off the top of your head
.
Speaker 1 (06:14):
Yeah, it is one of those things.
I'm resisting the urge toGoogle it right now, just so I
can pretend it was off the topof my head, but I would think of
it as it's a solemn season insome sense because you're really
trying to enter into the weightof what it was leading up to
Holy Week, and so you'restarting.
you know, 40 days out.
I will say this, for if youreally do want to practice Lent,
(06:35):
I think you need to do the fullversion of it, which is to say,
today is Mardi Gras, which isFrench for Fat Tuesday.
That's right so if you aregetting ready to fast, you would
feast today.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
We would get punch geese, which I think is a donut
of some sort, up in Michigan.
That was like the thing.
Okay, yeah, maybe a Polishdonut, I don't even know
Something like that.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
Yeah, it's a big deal .
I mean not just at Universal,where they go to town on it, or
in New Orleans, but if you didthe math though, it's actually
more than 40 days between AshWednesday to Easter I think it's
46 days, and part of the rhythmof it is you actually have
(07:23):
micro feasts possible on theSundays leading up to Easter
Foretastes Foretastes, in somesense of like you're fasting, so
you get the foretaste on Sunday, but not the full feast that
you're experiencing on Easter.
So it's kind of it's acclimatingyour body to the season that
you're in in Christian time, andso we could go in way more
detail on this.
But it's one way in whichyou're letting the flesh not
(07:44):
dominate the way you live yourChristian life by doing
something that deprives theflesh of what it wants, and I'm
using flesh, really, in both aphysical and a spiritual sense
there.
In physical sense, in that bynot eating something that you
would otherwise like to enjoyeating, you're depriving
yourself, so you're feeling thathunger get stirred up.
(08:05):
But it's also it's easy to liveby your desires, which is a
more spiritual idea of I justeat what I want, I do what I
want, I go where I want, and sothat's not the way we want to
pursue the Christian life wherewe're led by the desires of the
flesh, meaning not in the sexualsense, but just in a total
sense of.
I just kind of do whatever Ifeel like, and this is a season
(08:27):
where you have an opportunity tofight against that natural
tendency that you have byfasting, and doing it in
conjunction with one of the most, if not the most significant,
christian holiday.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
Yeah, that's so helpful.
In fact, I wish I would haveknown this this time last year,
because last Lent I gave upsugar.
Now Alana would keep me honest.
What I gave up was processedsugars, because I would still
eat like dates and things likethat, a little fruit here and
there.
The sugar that grows from theearth I would have.
So I gave up processed sugarsfor Lent, which was hard for me,
(09:03):
and if I do it again this year,it's going to be hard for me
again.
So this happened.
Actually, lent began onWednesday, as it does, and that
first Sunday somebody in ourcongregation said hey, I'm
trying out baking sourdoughcinnamon buns.
Oh, they would, wouldn't they?
And basically it was like can Imake a batch of them for you
(09:27):
and will you be a taste tester?
Speaker 1 (09:29):
So I thought you are such a kind you said get behind
me.
That's right, I'm like.
You are such a kind.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
You said, get behind me.
That's right.
I'm like you are such a kindperson, but you don't understand
what this means to me right now.
Yeah, but had I known thatSundays were little micro
foretastes, micro feasts?
Speaker 1 (09:43):
there you go.
I totally would have broken myfast right just and served this
lovely woman and helped her withher baking process yeah, and if
nothing else, that rhythm of itto me is the argument for why
it should be a food-basedreality.
So it's like you could give upcoffee, but it means every
Sunday morning you can enjoy acup of coffee but, you don't go
(10:06):
back to your regular rhythm ofcoffee every day.
That's good.
I know people have done socialmedia or things like that.
In some sense it works.
Maybe it's good for so if it'sI know people have done like
social media or things like thatit's like it really in some
sense it works.
Like maybe it's good for you todetox social media for 46 full
days.
Yeah, but the rhythm of itwould be well.
If you detox social media, thatmeans on Sunday you can check
all your accounts, but you alsodon't want to think of it as
(10:27):
like it's fat Sunday and so it'sjust your social media all
Sunday to make up for everything.
Right, so it's so.
That's why I say micro feast isprobably a better way of
thinking of it.
It's not fat Tuesday all overagain, but it's able if you, you
know if you gave up coffee orif you gave up dairy or if you
gave up something that yougenuinely enjoy.
You can dip back into it onSunday, but then you're back
(10:51):
into feast mode rather thanbeast mode, I guess.
Speaker 2 (10:54):
Beast mode.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
That's amazing Beast mode starting Monday morning.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
Okay.
So another piece to that why itmight make sense to give up
food in particular, which isthat's what the Bible means when
it says fasting.
It means food, but I don'tthink it's wrong to expand the
definition to include thingslike social media or-.
You could say things youconsume or fasting people you
don't like.
Like that's a legitimatepractice right.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
Like introverts are like oh, there we go.
How can I fast people Sorry,it's lit, it's lit, I can't be
there.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
But you said something.
Actually, this is so funny,nate.
I'm a fastidious note taker, sopeople that know me know this.
You, I'm a fastidious notetaker, so people that know me
know this.
You said something during astaff meeting in October 25th
2021.
What a creeper.
I know this is amazing.
You said the body is thefoundational arena of
discipleship.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
That's a good word right there.
Did you remember saying that?
I don't remember saying that.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
What date was it?
October 25th 2021.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
2021.
Okay, yeah, yeah, okay, I cankind of remember what I was it
October 25th, 2021.
2021,.
Okay, yeah, yeah, okay.
I can kind of remember what Iwas reading around then and why
I might have said that.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
I don't remember saying that, though, but let's
roll with it because it's agreat statement.
The body is the foundationalarena of discipleship.
So what I love about that is itgrounds us in reality as it's
lived by human beings, which arethe only disciples there are
human beings right.
Because reality as it's livedby human beings, which are the
(12:19):
only disciples there, are humanbeings right.
Because we might think youmight be apt to go well, these
are spiritual disciplines andthat's just like holier than
thou kind of like airy-fairy,just abstraction type thing.
But they're habits and a habitis an embodied thing.
It has something to do withyour memory, it has something to
do with your.
You know the ways your bodydoes something right, and so you
can habituate yourself into aspiritual discipline and that's
not a problem, that's actuallygreat.
So read James Clear's book onatomic habits and it'll help you
(12:41):
with your spiritual disciplines.
Yeah, why?
Because the body is thefoundational arena of
discipleship.
And so, as we are practicingLent, it's actually an embodied.
It's an embodied practice tosay practicing Lent.
It's actually an embodied.
It's an embodied practice tosay I'm going to, I'm going to
say no to certain justifiablebodily appetites like food or,
(13:01):
in my case, with sugar, or, likeyou said coffee, something like
that.
It's totally legitimate andit's actually a way to prepare
yourself almost from the bottomup, not just intellectually.
You could read there's a lot ofreally great Lent devotionals
out there, but this is almostlike a body up reality where
you're going.
I'm going to prepare myself inan embodied way to celebrate, to
(13:24):
give a full body yes to Jesus'sresurrection, by giving myself
a 40 day runway, from AshWednesday to Easter Sunday.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
Yeah, when.
I hope what people are hearingus say is this is we've, in all
of the conversation we've had sofar, we've not pulled out
scripture and said well, youknow here's where you're
commanded to practice Lent.
Scripture does talk aboutfasting as a discipline, but it
doesn't talk about Lent inparticular.
So there's a certain sense inwhich we're drawing on a
(13:52):
tradition, that it has roots toit, and some people I know may
fault it for some of its sources.
So it's in the realm of.
This would be healthy for yourspiritual life, but it's not
mandatory for it.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
That's good.
That's well said.
I think that's important.
And one of the ways I thinkabout that is that legalism,
legalists and lovers can lookpretty similar externally.
Now, if you start talking tothem, you'd figure out which
one's which pretty quickly,because they're motivational.
In other words, you knowthere's plenty of people who
have sold everything, given itall to the poor and done
(14:29):
something radically devoted toJesus, and they've done that in
order to get something from God.
And some people have done thatbecause they've received
everything already from God andthey're doing it as a response
of love.
Right, both, one's a legalist,one's a lover.
I get this from 1 Corinthians13,.
Right, paul says that you cangive all that you have, sell it
to the, give it to the poor, butif you have not love, it's
(14:51):
you've gained nothing.
And give it to the poor.
But if you have not love,you've gained nothing.
You can even deliver your bodyover to be burned and if you
have not love, you are nothing.
So you can go to the greatestextremes and if the motive is
I'm going to get from God, I'mgoing to twist God's arm and I'm
going to put him in my debt,that's legalism and it's not
okay, it's actually you're worseoff having done that.
But you could do some dramaticthings that are, I mean, paul
(15:15):
himself was executed for thefaith, right, and we would
believe that he did that out oflove, that there was a motive of
I've been given everything andyou know, I count all things as
loss for the surpassing worth ofknowing Christ Jesus, my Lord.
And so lovers can do dramaticthings like 40 days of not
eating particular types of foodin order to prepare their bodies
and their souls for EasterSunday, but I do think the
(15:39):
motive matters on something likethis.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
Yeah, yeah, I'm struck by it.
It's stuck with me.
I didn't take notes the way youmight take notes, but I
remember in what was it back in1943.
No this was last fall when wehad Matt and Dana Candler come
out and do some training with usand they were talking about
fasting, and I remember Danasaying something along the lines
of you basically shouldn't fastuntil you feel like you can't
(16:04):
not fast because your motive canbe so distorted by I'm using
this for manipulative reasons.
Or, you know, in a culture thatis and I'm susceptible to this
as well in a culture that'sobsessed with diet and exercise,
fasting is a great way toaccelerate your calorie deficit.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
Yeah, that's right, you're sort of like well, I need
to be in a deficit anyway.
Speaker 1 (16:25):
so let's just do this .
So then you're doing the thing,so externally it looks like
you're doing what other peopleare doing, but you're doing it
for self-serving reasons.
So I think that's probably, too, why you want to think of the
conjunction of fasting andprayer, and so it's not purely
I'm just self-denying.
I'm self-denying.
(16:46):
And even the way we state it inthe common rhythm to increase
hunger for God, that's right.
Right, it's not just a I'm justgoing to be hungry and cranky.
Yes, um, yes.
If you're actually fasting.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
Yes, somebody said there's no grace in starving
yourself, there's only grace inseeking God.
And so if you go without andyou feel that ache and that
directs you towards God, that'sthe grace of fasting.
Um, another way I think aboutit too is, um, that fasting is
it's voluntary weakness.
You know, it's like there'slots of promises in scripture
about weakness and God's powermade perfect there.
(17:20):
And so if I voluntarily makemyself weak but I do it before
the Lord in a way to kind ofopen myself up to more of who
God is for me, then that's wherethe grace of it is.
I think about another piece offasting is that fasting really
is about freedom.
This is coming back to yourpoint about the flesh.
(17:40):
I'll quote some Bible here sothat people don't get nervous 2
Peter, 2, 19,.
Peter says this whateverovercomes a person, to that he
is enslaved.
That's a powerful verse.
It's actually a proof text forme for addiction.
Whatever overcomes a person, tothat he is enslaved.
And so many of us are overcome.
(18:00):
I can tell you truly there is atendency for me to be overcome
by processed sugars if I'm notcareful.
It's just like grab a handfulof peanut M&Ms walking out
because I'm in a low mood stateor something like that you get
that dopamine hit.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
That's right and I walking out because I'm in a low
mood state or something likethat.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
And then you get that dopamine hit.
That's right and I know better,because I'm gonna get that
sugar crash after the dopaminehit, right.
But there's just somethingabout fasting's about freedom.
It's like don't be overcome byanything anymore, like you can
actually be free from thesethings.
But it's going to cost yousomething.
It's going to feel like death,but there's resurrection on the
(18:41):
other side, right Another one.
This may be a little bitpersonal but I can tell you I've
had a lot of conversations withyoung men who will ask me
questions about how to live in ameasure of freedom from sexual
sin and sexual temptation, lust,pornography, those kind of
things.
And since that's a part of myown story, I can often kind of
offer counsel from my own story.
And one of the things that I'vesaid and I always preface it
with my legalism and loverspeech because this is really
(19:04):
important to say I had heardfrom John Mark Comer I thought
this was really helpful thattraditionally the church
prescribed fasting for what thescriptures call kind of lusts of
the flesh or these kind ofbodily appetite issues that you
might have, like gluttony, likelust, right.
Those are very embodied thingswhich are different actually
(19:25):
than pride or vainglory, whichare often, you know, people
would call those kind of likealmost spiritual sins.
Yeah, because the devil haspride and vainglory, and so
basically, if it's a lust of theflesh, a prescription, is
actually a form of what Paulcalled beating his body into
(19:46):
submission.
We don't like that language,unless you're into working out.
Then you're like, okay, yeah,paul did it, so it's cool.
And so this is what I say.
I say, hey, I go through seasonswhere if I feel as if lust or
covetousness or temptation,sexual temptation, those things
are like increasing and I catchit kind of on an incline.
I will go through a seasonmight be a week, might be a
(20:13):
month and I usually tell someclose friends that if I lust I
will fast.
So it doesn't matter if I mightfast three days that week, it
doesn't matter.
Like the commitment is, if Ifind myself lusting tomorrow,
I'm fasting and it's a way tostarve, that this bodily
appetite that's connected right,this in a way that says I don't
want this, I don't want this, Iwant to put to death the deeds
(20:33):
of the body that I might live.
Romans 8, 16, I think, or 13.
And again, you can hear thatand you can think, oh, that's
legalistic.
I actually think it's because Ilove my wife, it's because I
love Jesus, it's because I knowthe freedom and the joy that
comes from not being temptedsexually, and I know that
fasting is about freedom and sowhatever overcomes a person to
(20:55):
that he is enslaved.
Fasting is actually a God-givenspiritual discipline that
enables you to kind of breakfree from some of those things.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
Yeah, that's really helpful.
I think too, even as you'resaying that it might, it might
be worth parsing legalism just alittle bit.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
I don't want to spend too much time on it, yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
I think there is a sense in which there's really
two senses of that.
There's at least two senses ofthat word.
And, in some sense, by youhaving a rule or a law of if
this happens.
Therefore, I do that that islegalistic in the basic sense of
there's a rule you're imposinga law outside of scripture that
you're imposing on yourself,right, but the legalism, that's
(21:38):
the problem and it's why it'skind of you can't treat them as
the both thing is when you'reusing the law as a means to gain
favor with God.
So you're still doing the samething.
You're following a law, butwhat you think you're doing by
following the law is different.
Speaker 2 (21:53):
That's well said, because when I counsel young men
and I tell them that I tellthem as this is descriptive, not
prescriptive, this is me justtelling you what's been helpful
for me I also, in that samecontext, tell them that I have
people in my life that, nomatter what, they always know
where I'm at with temptation ofany kind it could be
(22:13):
covetousness over somebody'slifestyle, or you know because I
I want to be a person who liveswith no secrets.
Now, you could find proof textsabout like walking in the light
and, you know, having nodarkness within you, 1 John 1.
But like, that's another law,it's another rule of life that I
follow, which is I don't livewith secrets.
I tell there's people that knowall my secrets, that kind of
(22:35):
thing.
And in a similar way, it's forthe same reason I don't want to
live without transparency.
I want to live known, fullyknown, with no hiding, that kind
of a thing.
And so, to that point, though,if I were to tell those men, you
have to do this, now that's aproblem, right?
I can tell those men, hey, youhave to honor your father and
(22:55):
mother.
I can tell them, hey, youcannot steal.
And because I'm taking Bibleand I'm prescribing Bible, but
if I prescribe my own spiritualpractices and things like that,
that's when you can becomeYou're binding conscience,
binding conscience.
Speaker 1 (23:09):
It's beyond scripture Especially and it has more
weight from you as a pastorversus I could do the same thing
and it would still be bindingconscience, but it wouldn't
weigh potentially on somebody'sconscience as much as like.
Well, my pastor said I have todo X, y or Z.
Speaker 2 (23:24):
Yep, that's it.
Yeah.
So in this context it'sprobably good to come back to
the topic of Lent and fasting.
I do believe now people coulddebate with me on this.
I do believe that there is aprescription.
The Bible calls disciples ofJesus to fast.
I get that from Matthew 6,where Jesus assumes his
disciples would fast.
He says when you fast, dot, dot, dot, which implies he assumes
(23:45):
it.
Now it's not in the imperative.
So you could say, well, hedidn't command it there and I
would say, okay, that's fine.
He did something more dramatic,which is he just assumed that
that would be normative for you,which almost might be worse
than an imperative in one sense.
So I believe I can look at aChristian and say you should
fast, you should have a practiceof fasting.
Now, if I go, it should be for40 days during.
(24:07):
Now the church hasn't had aproblem doing that in the past.
The early church, if you readthe Didache, they fasted on
Wednesdays and Fridays they didthe Lord's Prayer three times a
day the Eastern.
Orthodox still do.
There you go.
They prayed the Lord's Prayerthree times a day Now.
They prescribed those thingsfor disciples because they
believe that's what you needed.
(24:27):
I won't go that far asscripture, which says you should
fast.
That's something you should do.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
Yeah, so as we kind of land the plane here, that's a
good word to end on is that youshould fast.
And I think what we say is theinvitation here, as we go into
the season of Lent, is to try tofigure out if you don't already
have something.
And, just as a side note, ifyou're a member of New City and
you took a survey over thesummer, we know that most of you
don't have something.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
And that's no shade, because I'm one of those people
who said the same thing is that,during this season, that we're
inviting you to figure somethingout.
That's right, and I would say,I'd say, really, you have three
options.
I'll give three options.
One would be to just go in,lean into Wednesdays along with
(25:15):
the elder prayer guide and jointhe elders in fasting on
Wednesday.
So in this case, you'reskipping meals.
Yeah, which for?
Speaker 2 (25:19):
us.
All that is is breakfast andlunch.
So it's like I'll eat Tuesdaynight and then I won't, and then
I'll eat Wednesday night.
So I'll eat dinner on Tuesday,dinner on Wednesday.
That's a 24-hour fast, but itisn't so bad, because most of
your fasts are a lot of that.
You're sleeping those eighthours.
You're just missing breakfastand lunch.
Speaker 1 (25:37):
If you don't know where to start, we'd start there
.
And you've got the prayer guide.
It's in the app, but you'realso getting it as an email
every week, so you could startwith that.
If you wanted to do Lent, soyou would start with that.
If you wanted to do lent, soyou would start tomorrow.
It's ash wednesday, um, and Iwhat I've been thinking about is
I'm trying to decide kind ofwhat I'm going to do is I've
(25:58):
been thinking about notnecessarily what can I give up,
just in the in the broad senseof like, oh, I could give up.
I've been thinking about what doI, what do I find myself
craving, and so like you weresaying processed sugars, sugars,
it's like well, I enjoy tacos,but I'm not like oh my gosh, I
got to get a taco right orburgers, or like some of these
(26:18):
things that maybe I should eatless of anyways.
But I can think of.
Like, well, is there somethingalong those lines where it's
like a component of like dairyproducts, like ice cream, or it
would include things like that.
So I've been thinking alongthose lines because I'm trying
to think in terms of I don'twant a craving to control me, so
this is a season where I cantake control of the cravings and
(26:39):
do it for this purpose.
Yeah, I think you've got thosetwo options, and then there's
just the traditional of usingFriday as a fast day, I think
that's that has a long historyas well.
But I figure, if you're goingto do a day, you may as well
join the crew on Wednesday.
Speaker 2 (26:55):
Yeah, can you think of?
Speaker 1 (26:57):
other, other approaches people have, I mean
we're recommending those twothings.
Speaker 2 (27:08):
There's other things you could do.
Yeah, I know we went prettyhard in the paint on making this
food oriented, but let me justriddle off some things that you
could fast.
You could fast food generally,uh, which is what we do on
Wednesdays.
You could fast for fast sugar,which is what I did for 40 days.
Just no processed sugars, right, but again, I still had
fructose and you know the stuffthat comes in fruit naturally,
right, um, you could fast meat.
You could fast alcohol.
You could fast caffeine.
(27:28):
Then you could get outside ofthe kind of embodied sense and
you could fast social media orTV or internet of some sort,
like maybe, uh, you only use itin a certain place, you know, in
time, whatever you could fast,um, I joked earlier.
But you could fast people,which would be a practice of
solitude, right, like, maybe youactually, uh, bonhoeffer says
(27:49):
the best people for the worstpeople for community are people
who can't have solitude.
Uh, and the worst people forsolitude are those who can't
have, who can't live withoutcommunity, and so, um, and then
another one would be shopping,like maybe you just don't spend
money for the for the 40 days,uh, and you fast, you know,
amazon or something like that.
So there are ways you could gooutside the norm of what fasting
(28:10):
is Um, but then even within thenorm, there's a lot of
different things you could.
You could give up.
Speaker 1 (28:14):
Yeah, and the caveat there would be don't use it as
an excuse to do something you'dprefer to do anyways, like
fasting people.
Like fasting people, which issort of like you can't be like
man.
I'm just so hard keeping upwith email.
I'm going to give up email fora minute.
Yeah, actually that's mine.
I've decided my land practiceyou need.
So, yeah, maybe we say this Ifyou're going to pick something
(28:35):
that's non-food, I meanfood-based, I mean I could say
I'm fasting broccoli, but that'snot really actually doing
anything right.
It needs to introduce some levelof friction for you.
So if it's a food item, if it'sa, I'm going to give up Netflix
for 40 days because I usuallywatch it for two hours every
night or something like that.
It can't be something that youdon't participate in that much.
(28:58):
It needs to be something that'ssustainable, doable, but also
is going to cause a little bitof a pinch, a little bit of
friction.
Yeah, that's sustainable,doable, but also is going to
cause a little bit of a pinch, alittle bit of friction.
Speaker 2 (29:04):
Yeah, that's well said.
Three closing thoughts.
First, don't butt off more thanyou can chew.
Speaker 1 (29:10):
Look at that that works on so many levels.
Wait for it.
Speaker 2 (29:14):
I just had to say that.
But it's a good fastingrecommendation.
But I mean that you know like,don't go too crazy with this.
If you've never fasted before,don't Take a baby step.
That's good.
Second, and related to that isif you're the kind of person who
wants to go, you know I'm goingto go big, I'm going to go all
in.
Just, we've warned againstlegalism as a motivation.
(29:34):
But 1 Corinthians 8.8 says thissuper direct food will not
commend us to God.
We are no worse off if we donot eat and no better off if we
do.
I just love thestraightforwardness of that.
So just remember, like yourdiet, it doesn't make God love
you anymore or any less.
You know your practices are notgoing to change God's love for
(29:55):
you, but God's love for youmight actually change your
practices.
Hopefully it does.
And the last thing I'd say isthat it's easy to think of
fasting as really to focus onwhat I'm letting go of, because
that's core to it.
But I'd actually rather youalso consider what is it that
you're taking hold of that?
There is a hungering for Godwith others.
That's core to fasting, whichis I'm actually taking hold of
(30:19):
more of God by saying no tosomething.
I'm saying yes to him.
And so the emphasis of fastingpractically is what am I giving
up?
But the emphasis of fasting,kind of the priority of it, is
what am I laying hold of?
I'm asking for more of you, god, than I've experienced thus far
, and so you know, fasting mightfeel like sackcloth and ashes,
(30:42):
but it might actually end insomething that feels like Easter
, which is the hope that's setout before us it is.
Speaker 1 (30:47):
Those are some good words to end on Ben.
I enjoyed our conversationtalking about fasting.
Listeners can keep an ear out,so to speak, for another deep
dive on a congregant'sexperience of fasting and that's
going to drop in a couple weeks.
That's great Looking forward tothat one too.
Speaker 2 (31:12):
So until then,
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